2009 Draft

I think that the 2009 Draft is going to be something like the 2006 Draft, in that the 8th Pick is as likely to land a star as the 1st Pick, and the likelihood of any player becoming a First-Team All-NBA talent is very low.
Blake Griffin is the token athletic 4-man that many past drafts have had. Think Tyrus Thomas and Stromile Swift. He looks better than those guys, especially his free throw shooting, so he could likely be the top pick. Ricky Rubio is intriguing and will be the most hyped prospect. But finding the next Steve Nash is not easy and Rubio could be just an average starting point guard. I haven't seen DeMar DeRozan, but his team was upset last night in a game where he scored 3 points. I've seen some youtube clips of him and he looks pretty flashy...maybe too flashy. Jrue Holiday & Co. were upset by Michigan last night. Vitale praised the freshman, but was quick to point out that he's not Derrick Rose or Michael Beasley and it sort of sounded like a warning to fans who anticipate ANY freshman this year to live up to those players' standards.
So, if the Wolves struggle this year, I don't think I'm going to worry much about ping-pong balls. There isn't a Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, and maybe not even an OJ Mayo or Kevin Love. Something tells me that we could just as easily end up in a Brandon Roy-Randy Foye-Rudy Gay sandwich again. But, I'd feel a little better if a different man were handling that decision.
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It's almost like...
…going out on the weekend with a guy who has a history of drunk driving. You just don’t trust their ability to get you home.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 21, 2008 9:19 AM CST
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How many draft-night DUI’s can he get before his license is revoked? Maybe Hoiberg’s addition is some form of a work-permit.
by Andy G on
Nov 21, 2008 9:26 AM CST
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I get the feeling that he's more like his junior drinking buddy.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 21, 2008 12:13 PM CST
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Well, everybody needs a few of those...
but to my original point, since I doubt that we’ll be picking at the top of the lotto (assuming 2-8 was at least a slight fluke, which it probably was) I hope I’m right that it’s a balanced and tough to decide draft, where #8 might look every bit as enticing as #2 and 3.
by Andy G on
Nov 21, 2008 1:42 PM CST
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A little early isn't it
to be making blanket statements about freshmen and how they translate into the pros? It’s just too early. Give them some time, see what they can do. Maybe a few of them will just explode and we’ll be saying Beasley who??
by wolfen on
Nov 21, 2008 1:47 PM CST
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Yes, but..
the guys who analyze the draft for a living were calling the ‘09 Draft a weak one, six months ago. I don’t mean that there won’t be really good players out of it—just that you won’t feel as certain about it as you were last year. It might be a year where the first couple picks don’t turn out to be good. There was no chance of that happening in 2008, barring injuries.
by Andy G on
Nov 21, 2008 2:02 PM CST
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fair enough
I hope the prognosticators are wrong. I hope we have our choice of some can’t miss top notch weapons to choose from. To say we are overdue is an understatement……
by wolfen on
Nov 21, 2008 2:31 PM CST
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I do think...
…your point about Griffin is spot on. I’d be more than happy if the Wolves ended up with something like the 6th and 12th pick with their top 2 choices. I think it will be a deep draft in terms of functional players…and I’m still holding out for a Rubio/Curry back court.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 21, 2008 3:21 PM CST
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Just think...
if we actually get 2 legitimately very good players. I don’t think i’ll know how to handle that. What am I thinking? Not going to happen. Also with possibly 4 picks in the 1st round, we would almost be forced to trade 2 of them for some other players….
by wolfen on
Nov 21, 2008 3:32 PM CST
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Another guy in that late-lottery range to watch is Gerald Henderson. He’s not a typical Dukie, in that he’s much more athletic and strong than he is supremely skilled/fundamentally sound. He dunked really hard on somebody last night and I’ve seen him block a ton of shots from the small-forward position. I think he was high school teammates with Carolina’s Wayne Ellington.
by Andy G on
Nov 21, 2008 3:39 PM CST
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Duke = teh evil
:)
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 21, 2008 7:05 PM CST
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Having 4 1st round picks...
I Really Hope Kevin McHale drafts Stephen Curry from Davidson…He would be that True Point Guard that we need to step in and play the position. The Kid can run the Offense to perfection.
by Tony_O on
Nov 21, 2008 4:14 PM CST
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I’m hoping for Rubio or Jennings if we can get a top10, I’m gonna keep a watch in Curry, though he sounds every bit of a combo as Foye was.
As going for bigs: Thabeet and Jerome Jordan seems like he could be a sleeper according to ESPN’s TOP100. Calethes seems like a decent pick as well
by Wim (Belgium) on
Nov 23, 2008 5:06 AM CST
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You're going to bang...
…the Thabeet drum all year, aren’t you? ;)
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 23, 2008 7:00 AM CST
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You bet on it :p It’s gonna be Curry and Thabeet here all year :p
by Wim (Belgium) on
Nov 23, 2008 10:35 AM CST
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Another similarity to 2006 beyond those mentioned is that, after 2 drafts being all about the freshman, this one will probably find much value in non-freshman.
Although I must say the whole “no consensus studs” things worry me a great deal. The Wolves FO does a poor job evaluating, so it’s likely they’ll struggle landing top flight prospects unless they have a no-brainer fall in their laps.
Anyway, unlike the past two drafts, which were all about the froshes, like 2006, there should be a good deal of value found in non-freshman.
Here are some of my early favorites:
1) Rubio (beware though, as McHale’s gone on record numerous times about how he’s not necessarily a fan of teams featuring a star PG)
2) Griffen. He’s another PF, but he may be the BPA, so you take him. He’d add a lot of athleticism to the front court.
3) Tyler Smith (Love this guy; would love to nab him in the mid-to-lower portion of the 1st round; his upside’s not great in that he’ll be 23 come draft time, but an athletic, do-it-all glue guy prospect at the SF? Sign me up. McHale could finally atone for passing on Josh Howard.)
4) Nick Calathes. A reasonable consolation prize given the likelihood Rubio’s not going to fall into their laps. I expect this guy will eventually crash the lottery. I love his skills. Although at some point they do need upgrade their athleticism.
5) Tyreke Evans. We’ll have to see what he does over a whole season. But this is probably my favorite freshman early on. He could be a the type of 2-guard they need with decent size, good athleticism, and the ability to score inside.
I’m also keeping an eye on Earl Clark; I’ve really only seen him play in the tourney, and he was a turnover machine. But we’re talking about an athletic 6’9" hybrid forward, so you have to pay attention. Same thing goes for the extremely raw Al-Farouq Aminu.
I can’t decide on Curry. I love his game, but his role in the NBA is very difficult to decipher. I think he’s the type of player whose success will largely be dependent on which team he lands with, and I’m not sure I trust the Wolves.
Jennings just seems like Telfair v. 2.0 to me. And Thabeet’s got that why-doesn’t-he-rebound-given-he’s-6"-taller-than-his-opponent-many-nights thing going against him. I’m hoping Derozan emerges as an Andre Iguadola type (they even have identical bodies), but outside of his dunks, he’s not exciting at all right now. Maybe he’s the next Cupcake?
We’ll see. The draft’s still an entire college season away. By then we should have a better idea of what’s there.
by jianfu on
Nov 23, 2008 9:27 AM CST
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Ooops
I like ASU’s Harden, too. While the Wolves may not land a superduperstar, and while the draft in general may in fact be a bit flat in terms of studs, I think there are several candidates who could give them an upgrade over what they currently have at the 1, 2, and 3. Harden’s one of those guys, I think.
FWIW, in this day an age of one-and-dones, when talking about “upper” classmen as NBA prospects, I think a good rule of thumb is to ask “would this guy have been first round material had he decided to declare earlier?” A guy who kind of floats through the NCAAs for a couple years before finally “breaking out” just likely doesn’t have the upside to make it; a guy destined to be a quality NBA contributor shouldn’t struggle much at the NCAA level. Going back to the Roy-Foye thing as an example, had the Wolves asked this question they would have made the correct decision. Because even despite the statistical and size advantages Roy had over Foye, Roy would have been very draftable after any of his 4 seasons at Washington (he was even a borderline candidate to declare as a HS senior). Foye didn’t really emerge as a prospect until his senior season.
So, applying this to this next class, guys like Harden, Griffen, Smith, and Curry probably pass the smell test; guys like Earl Clark probably do not. A guy like Thabeet is a little more difficult. Ordinarily I thought he’d be considered draft worthy if only due to his size; but I also think DeAndre Jordan was considered a better prospect than Thabeet by most, and Jordan slid big time. So who knows?
by jianfu on
Nov 23, 2008 9:59 AM CST
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Solid points...
….I think Evans will make his way to the front of the class before it is all said and done with. I’ve also been big on Calathes and Curry and if the Wolves could end up with one of these 3 (or 2) I’d be a happy camper. Harden is the one guy I just am not that familiar with. I don’t catch too many ASU games.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 23, 2008 10:04 AM CST
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No to Calathes...
Nice player, yes. But what this team needs is ATHLETICISM. It’s a foreign term on this team. If the FA’s Foye infatuation continues, and it probably will, we won’t draft a PG. If we could nab Thabeet and either Tyreke Evans or DeMar DeRozan or James Harden, then we would have something to work with. A lineup of:
Foye
Evans/DeRozan/Harden
Gomes
Big Al
Thabeet
Now you’re talkin…..
by wolfen on
Nov 25, 2008 9:44 AM CST
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For those of you unfamiliar with Calathes...
I’d add that Harden is about as good of an athlete as Calathes. Both of them rely on their skill/smarts to make up for what their bodies cannot. Thabeet scares the hell out of me and I just have a bad feeling that he’d be a colossal bust. He’s huge but has hands of stone and plays a lot of zone. Derozan…well, he’d be nice and would definitely be athletic. I think Evans, Curry, and Calathes all have the added benefit of being guys that can help share combo guard duties with Foye.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 25, 2008 12:10 PM CST
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Curry and Thabeet...
That’s kind of why I listed Harden last, because he doesn’t jump out as a great athlete. I just think we need a guy who can MAYBE turn into the guy that we drafted a couple years ago and traded (Roye). A legit #1 scoring option that puts fear into opponents. Since we won’t get one in free agency (who would want to come here?), we need to take REPEATED stabs at this and subsequent drafts, until we land one. I agree that all those players you metioned would be good choices for sharing combo minutes with Foye. Something about Curry scares me. Maybe because he’s skinnier than Corey Brewer. That being said, something in him reminds me of Tony Parker. I need convincing that he isn’t just a product of the miracle run he had in the NCAA tourney. Can anyone convince me of that? Also on Thabeet – I somewhat agree. How many giant C’s are offensive dynamos in the NBA? Virtually none. He’ll be able to get put backs galore. He just changes the game. I’ve seen many times when the opposition passes the ball down low, and because Thabeet is guarding him, the guy makes a move, decides that it is impossible to make a move on him, passes it out to the perimeter, and the shot clock expires. If he doesn’t swat it, then he changes the flow of the opponent’s offense. Right now absolutely nobody fears us defensively inside….
by wolfen on
Nov 25, 2008 2:49 PM CST
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Good Points on Thabeet.
Everybody will get a better idea about this guy as the season goes on, since his team will likely be on tv a lot and make a deep tourney run. But man—if you put a guy THAT big in the middle of the Wolves’ defense, I have to think we improve immediately. And he shoots high 60’s for FT%. Nothing special, but not a complete brick-layer, which is the case for most monster centers.
by Andy G on
Nov 25, 2008 2:55 PM CST
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As the thabeet drummer
I do agree with some of SnP’s points. He really might be a bust, he mostly just stands in the middle with the zone they’re playing.
That said, I’ve watched him quite a lot last year and as most scouts noted, I too saw improvement. The fact is that he hasn’t been playing basketball from very early on if I remember correctly.
The reason I like him so much is because he could go either way. I got the feeling we’re actually already quite set at all positions except center (though an upgrade at point wouldn’t be bad, agreed) so then why not take a big chance on the guy. Wouldn’t pick him with a top8 or so pick if we get a pick like 12, why not, we got plenty of picks left to use for “value” players.
by Wim (Belgium) on
Nov 26, 2008 2:49 AM CST
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He does have...
…ridiculously good physical tools. He’s massive and athletic. Not too many guys in the world like that.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 26, 2008 9:43 AM CST
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thabeet
would be a fantastic addition to the wolves. it gives them an anchor to the defense and a real center. both of those things also sort of double as reasons why jefferson/love is a bad idea as a front court. i personally think that thabeet would be available later in the draft than the wolves will be picking (he seems like the raw, athletic big that goes between 8-12 most years, sorry if the assumption that the wolves will be drafting before that is sort of piling on). if that is the case, why not package love and their higher pick for a true point, a respectable wing defender and grab thabeet with their pick? now, obviously, i have no idea how the draft order will look or who will be available, but what do you guys think?
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on
Nov 30, 2008 2:49 PM CST
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I think having both Love and a big man center like Thabeet would be ideal for creating changes that create problems for the other team. If you have both you have a weapon and a counter weapon for most everything they throw at you.
If we pick before 5 I’d go with a PG, if we don’t Thabeet
by Wim (Belgium) on
Nov 30, 2008 3:05 PM CST
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I think there's no way on God's green earth...
…that Love or Foye get traded. It’s the Roy/Mayo factor. I’d bet on Jefferson getting traded before Love.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 30, 2008 5:38 PM CST
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really?
jefferson is a flat-out great player who should go to a few all-star games in his career. love seems like the kind of guy who plays consistently very well and is never quite good enough to be in the discussion. if mchale trades jefferson instead of love (assuming one gets traded), he’s crazy.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on
Nov 30, 2008 6:24 PM CST
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I remember when Andrew Bynum
had hands of stone. I would give my left nut for Andrew Bynum right now (let me re-think that….)
by wolfen on
Nov 25, 2008 3:13 PM CST
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I think...
after all’s said and done, that Lakers offer for KG (Bynum + Odom + a couple low picks) was the one they should have taken. IIRC, it wasn’t all that popular among Wolves fans in general, but I think they could have then moved Odom for something nice and build around the rarest of rare assets: a stud, 2-way center. I like Big Al, but I just think they’d have been closer to building a winner with Bynum (plus the Odom plunder) in hand. But, water under the bridge… (Incidentally, the most popular trade rumor among fans was the Bulls’ centered around Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas, which isn’t looking so hot right about now.)
Anyway, I think they need to somehow come out of this draft with 2 players. I think they need a second ball handler with size, and they need an athletic marvel out on the wing (I don’t think Brewer or Gomes are going to cut it; I’m keeping an eye on Wake freshman Al-Farouq Aminu: if he shows he can be effective out on the wing—he was primarily a post-up player in HS but has the athleticism/fluidity to play SF, so he’s making the switch—then I consider him). A tall flyswatter would be nice to work in with Jefferson and Love, but I’m not sure if that type of player’s in this draft (I don’t want them to draft Thabeet with their lottery pick and he’ll likely be gone by the time they pick again). I think they may as well just rotate Mad Dog in and out for what will be the final year of his deal.
I also just hope they are active in this draft. By active, I mean moving up, which they’ve never done. (They usually just talk about doing so.) The draft is all about quality, not quantity. 4 picks is nice, but if they sit on their hands and just wait their turn it’s not likely to turn out well. So, I want to see them active. (I also want to see them upgrade their scouting/evaluation department, but…) Portland basically turned their team around in a similarly murky 2006 draft, landing Aldridge and Roy, by getting real aggressive, and I’d love to see the Wolves do the same in 2009.
by jianfu on
Nov 25, 2008 9:48 PM CST
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Agreed on being active..
….I think they need to target 2 players and move on them. Get who you want and need not whoever falls to one of 4 spots. I view their needs as follows:
1- big pure point or combo guard who can share lead duties with Foye (I’ve given up on the Foye/Shaddy Death Match…I think the winner is obvious at this point)
2- athletic backup at the 4/5
3- Scoring wing.
I would giggle like a school girl if they walked away with one of the Rubio/Curry/Evans group and…well, this isn’t a good draft for the athletic 4/5 backup.
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by Stop-n-Pop on
Nov 26, 2008 9:48 AM CST
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Taylor...
I’m a little concerned about where his heart is. I imagine the club is hemorraging money. It’s not that out of bounds to imagine him “Sarverizing” 2 or even 3 of their picks, with a company line the next day of “the guys we liked were gone by the time it was our turn.”
However, say what we will about the FO, they have worked hard to clear the decks and stockpile all these picks, so I assume they’ll be given some freedom to utilize them (let’s hope to move up).
by jianfu on
Nov 26, 2008 4:25 PM CST
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If it isn’t a testament for the weakness of this draft. Thabeet wasn’t even a lock for the 1st round had he gone through. A lot of that has to do with his “potential” status but still, that’s a huge leap. I’m not so sure his status will hold up. DeAndre Jordan was pegged as a lottery pick up until a few weeks (or was it a month?) before the actual draft, then dropped to the second round… “potential” players can go all over.
by Wim (Belgium) on
Nov 26, 2008 2:56 AM CST
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Prospecting...
A couple guys I’m interested in as a Wolves fan are on TV tonight. Tennessee’s Tyler Smith (not a top pick, but mid-to-later first round) and Wake’s Aminu. I’ll only be able to watch Wake—it’s on after the kids go to bed—but I’m excited to watch him.
by jianfu on
Nov 30, 2008 4:23 PM CST
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I had him on my draft board late as well (for one of those early 2nd rounders) but with Gomes cemented and Miller here, do we still need another wing?
by Wim (Belgium) on
Dec 1, 2008 4:06 AM CST
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I have to say...
this is off topic but I’m really enjoying watching Gomes at the 3. He’s no superstar but I love how, at that position, all the intangibles he brings seem to come out – smart passing (including nice post entry passes), willingness to aggressively take the open shot, smart defending. Maybe he’s not quite good enough to be a starter on a championship-caliber team (then again why not?), but he’s sure a pleasure to watch.
by plinytheelder on
Dec 1, 2008 12:27 PM CST
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Hate to butt in....
but the only time you don’t draft a certain position is if you have an all star at that position already. And we have none. Al will get there, but not yet. It doesn’t matter who is playing at the wing right now. We need BETTER wings. And if a wing is the best player on the board at the time, I would hope you take him. The vikings would have never gotten Adrian Peterson using your logic. They already had Chester Taylor. The great thing is, we will probably be drafting 2 times in round 1, so we’ll be able to mix and match maybe BPA and maybe try for a little more need with the other 1st rounder.
by wolfen on
Dec 1, 2008 3:48 PM CST
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I agree...
I used to say this about the guards (especially back when guys like Mike James, Troy Hudson, and Marko Jaric were still around): We have a lot of wings, and yet we don’t have any, if you catch my drift.
As for Aminu, dude’s got an NBA body already, and he moves around like a gazelle. He guarded both low post guys and perimeter guys, and was active in the zone. Offensively he seems raw, and he didn’t really shoot from outside much, even passing up more than a few shots. But he rebounds like crazy. If he starts to shoot, look out.
I’m not saying I’m sold on him, but I am intrigued. He kind of had a Thaddeus Young vibe to him. I think Aminu’s the better rebounder, and Young the better perimeter shooter, but just watching him, that’s who he reminded me of.
by jianfu on
Dec 2, 2008 10:42 PM CST
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and also...
I don’t think Mike Miller should be considered a lock to start on this team in the future. I would hope we could find a legit 2 guard/small forward with some real athleticism and scoring ability. Then you bring Miller off the bench to lead your 2nd squad as a gunner. Of the top 6-8 teams, how many of them would Miller start on? I bet less than half. Just my $.02…..
by wolfen on
Dec 1, 2008 3:51 PM CST
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I agree with you...
…but is he really saying anything different? Obviously you take Lebron James if he’s available even if you have 10 wings, but if it’s between a maybe 3 and a maybe 1 or 5…
by plinytheelder on
Dec 1, 2008 4:28 PM CST
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Just a very quick sidetrack to the Need vs BPA here, it is after all called the 2009 DRAFT fanshot:
Read about a system on ESPN and I really like that one; there’s definitly more on that when the draft comes closer. In short it goes like this:
you organize the players in tiers, players with the same chance, the same overall skill are grouped in a tier. Inside that tier you organize the players according to need (be it need at the position or need as to what he brings to a team (i.e. FT shooting, energy, etc…)).
The rules is you never ever pick someone from a lower tier when someone is still available from a higher one. If say all players from tier1 are gone and you got one tier2 player left but he doesn’t fit a need, you take him anyway because he’s a higher tier.
If you have multiple playerse left from the highest tier you pick the one with the most need within that tier.
Needlees to say the whole system relies on getting the tiers right .. but it protects from reaching on the last moment.
That said, I mostly like that system for the lottery, after that it gets harder and harder to get it right. The error rate just goes up because there’s less material on those guys (mostly) and you can spend less time seeing them because you’re focusing on the top picks.
So, my general idea is using tier system for high picks but in the second round (or late 1st) I’m convinced it’s more valuable looking for a niche player. Finding a player that has one or a few qualities that can be plugged right into what you’re trying to do.
Since they’re generally not good enough to make it on their all-round skill the only way they get minutes is by getting a niche on a team.
Example: I was really rooting for JJ Barea back in 2006 to be picked, especially since he was available at that 57th pick. The guy could never be a starter on any NBA team but wouldn’t it be nice to have an assist machine in there for 10minutes, just when he’s feeling it, just to get things going?
Off course, I agree, you have to be mindfull of reaching and if you’ve got something like last year with someone like Chalmers still on the board you don’t trade the pick EVEN IF you’ve just drafted Mayo and are planning to keep him, you just don’t trade that away for a future pick. Oh yes, I’m gonna keep bringing that up from time to time, they brought that on theirselves…
by Wim (Belgium) on
Dec 2, 2008 1:48 AM CST
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Seems my perspective on “very quick” is relative. Can’t help myself.
by Wim (Belgium) on
Dec 2, 2008 1:48 AM CST
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this might be a strange idea
but, if somehow the wolves do get the first pick, and the way things go for the wolves this is the only kind of year where they might luck into it, maybe they should just take Grifin even if he does play the 4. He’s the most talented/athletic player in this draft and since next year’s team will only win 20-30 games, the wolves could get him to play small forward. I mean, if Wittman is still coaching, maybe that’s a bad idea because Wittman would yank him as soon as he made a single mistake and never give him minutes again. He would make a lot of mistakes learning to play sf, but he has the athleticism and ball handling skills to play small forward. If only he had a better defensive reputation, because the length we’d have with him and corey brewer on the wings would be pretty nice.
On the other hand, maybe we should draft someone with a position for once, someone like demar derozen.
by oblivionspocket on
Dec 2, 2008 11:20 PM CST
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By my eyes...
Griffen’s definitely in the inside track for the #1 overall pick. There’s still time for things to tighten up, but early on this thing isn’t even close. (Particularly if Rubio doesn’t come this year.)
So, should the Wolves get the #1 pick and Griffen’s still the consensus best player, I think you take him and ask questions later. You’d have 3 PFs, but 3 legit PFs where a lot of teams struggle to find just 1. And each of the 3 offers something a little different, so they could really go any number of ways in this scenario, tradewise.
Word of warning, though: My guess is McHale wouldn’t find Griffen’s style aesthetically pleasing. McHale has a sweettooth for the soft touch/back to the basket big men; Griffen has some post ability, but primarily he’s about the dribble-drive.
by jianfu on
Dec 2, 2008 11:42 PM CST
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He is essentially a face-up player, who’s jumper doesn’t have a lot of range. That I realize. Wouldn’t be the first time McHale has drafted a player without much of a post game. ndudi ebi comes to mind, although I guess he was supposed to be some kind of wing player. As much as I hate to bring up his name, Garnett didn’t have a post game until his third or fourth year in the pros.
I guess the real problem would be if we drafted Griffen and then McHale forced him to become a post up player, but as a face up player he actually complements Al Jefferson a lot better, especially if Jefferson continues to get better at shooting js from 8 to 15 feet out.
Still, you don’t draft Griffen because he fits on the team. You draft him because you think he’s got the potential to be better than Al Jefferson. Ideally, when you get the first pick, you get the player who will eventually be the best on the team.
One player we can’t draft is Cole Aldrich, someone McHale and Taylor would love to have on the team. McHale because Aldrich has a soft touch and excels at getting good post position. Taylor because Aldrich is from bloomington.
by oblivionspocket on
Dec 3, 2008 12:28 AM CST
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Another big problem the FA has...
is the willingness to trade their pet players. If we could get Griffen, then I would hope we would package Love for something else. That wouldn’t happen as the man love for K-Love runs too deep in this organization.
by wolfen on
Dec 4, 2008 10:46 AM CST
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