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Love v. Mayo is the new black

P1_mayo

As you may have noticed in the outstanding Fan Shots PANIC and DON'T PANIC, we Wolves fans have taken a whole 17 games to devolve into Did We Get Screwed Again?: Roy/Foye the Sequel.  Has Kevin McHale Lucy once again pulled the football out from underneath our Charlie Brown's feet?  Or did the Wolves brain trust finally get it right; drafting the BPA and a guy that will give the team a solid effort for years to come?  Whatever it is, take a few minutes to check out the pros and cons in both posts and let us know what you think.  

For what it's worth, below the fold are a few stats I will be keeping track of throughout the year on the two players. 

 

Star-divide

OJ Mayo Kevin Love M/L
eFG 51.6 42.2 M
OREB/36 0.8 4.8 L
PER 17.3 16.6 M
eff/40 17.7 21.0 L
ws/40 5.3 10.1 L
%TmPos 22.5 7.1 M
pts/Pos 1.02 1.33 L
FT/FG 19 43 L
%TmOR 8.2 25.4 L
ppr -3.18 -1.80 L
a/to 0.84 0.95 L
TOr 11.3 10.2 L
RebR 6.9 17.2 L
pts/36 19.6 14.2 M

Mayo is off to a fantastic shooting start and he's making his money with good shooting and solid scoring.  Love is getting to the line, not turning the ball over, and rebounding very well. 

Granted, we're comparing apples and oranges, but what say you?

UPDATE: I should have made this clear in the initial post, but at the midway point in the season we'll weigh these stats against rookies at their positions as well as overall position rankings.  Some of these stats may be a bit misleading to simply say Love or Mayo is the winner.  For instance, OJ may have a very nice looking RebR for a rookie guard whereas Love may be simply average.  I didn't include it here because we're just 20 games into the season and I figure that some of the guys who got out to a super hot start would kind of throw things off.  I wanted to wait until these guys had more games under their belt than they did in college before I started weighing them against outside competition.

Also, some of these guys have either just been breaking into the swing of things (J.J. Hickson at the forward spot) or they have been under-utilized (see Love, Kevin...who is receiving fewer minutes per game than Jason Thompson).  That being said, since I'm a Kevin Love guy in the Love v Mayo debate, check out how he fares against Thompson, Michael Beasley, and Darrel Arthur.

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Comments

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Love PER = 17

That’s very solid, despite a low shooting pct that will surely improve as the year goes on.

I’ll admit to preferring Love over Mayo and here’s why – Minny is never going to be a “star power” franchise – we just don’t attract the free agents. The framework for success here has to be built around a team concept and player development within that concept (see: Minnesota Twins). Even if Mayo puts up better numbers than Love, I doubt he would be beneficial to this team due to his style of play, if that makes any sense. He’s basically a Shaddy clone, perhaps with a slightly higher ceiling.

I’m fine with Love being an above-average NBA big man – just because he was a lottery pick doesn’t mean he has to be an All-Star.

While we’re on the topic of PER, it’s interesting that the only guys on the squad with PERs above 14 are Al, Love, The Rhino, and Ollie.

So we have got the PF position covered, in triplicate. Great. It would be nice to have some players who contribute at other positions.

Jefferson 22.21
Love 16.86
Smith 14.54
Ollie 14.12
Miller 13.60
Gomes 12.72
Shaddy 12.47
Carney 11.77
Foye 11.49
Brewer 11.42
Telfair 7.22
Madsen 5.46
Cardinal 5.19
Collins=1.79 LOL

by highpockets on Dec 5, 2008 7:58 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have to disagree
I’ll admit to preferring Love over Mayo and here’s why – Minny is never going to be a "star power" franchise – we just don’t attract the free agents. The framework for success here has to be built around a team concept and player development within that concept (see: Minnesota Twins). Even if Mayo puts up better numbers than Love, I doubt he would be beneficial to this team due to his style of play, if that makes any sense. He’s basically a Shaddy clone, perhaps with a slightly higher ceiling.

If we never have star power, we will always also be a mediocre team. You win with stars. Even Detroit had guys like Billups and Rasheed. We don’t have to have Kobe to win, but you have to have guys on your roster who are your go to players. We can disagree on this one but when you have the #3 overall pick you absolutely be looking to draft a great player, not a role player unless you already have a good young core that you are trying to build around. But that is step 2, we are clearly stuck at step 1.

Mayo is far better than McCants, that is just a false statement. Both are great shooters but Mayo plays defense. Mayo will have some turnovers and take a few bad shots but he is coachable and makes better decisions than McCants.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you

by GopherNation on Dec 5, 2008 9:07 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

draft philosophy

Go back and look at the top 5 picks in each year since the lottery was instituted back in 1985 (07 & 08 not included for some reason)
http://www.nba.com/history/lottery_picks.html

I propose that holding a high draft pick is far from a guarantee of drafting a star player. There are typically 1 or maybe 2 legitimate “stars” drafted in the top 5 every year (one exception would be 2003 with LeBeon, Carmello, Bosh, & Wade – of course this was the infamous “Ebi over Josh Howard” draft for the Wolves), and many failures (Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, Shelden Williams, etc).

Given that, I’m fine with seeing the (inept) front office leadership taking a more conservative approach to the draft/roster, particularly given their history. It’s a risk/reward proposition, and I think dealing Mayo and bad contracts for Love & Miller was a good, low-risk move.

I would be interested to see what McCants could do in a Memphis-type situation (give me the ball and get out of my way). He basically tries to do this on his current team but is mostly going against the grain of the team’s strategy.

by highpockets on Dec 5, 2008 9:41 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PER

Love’s PER of 16.86 ranks 82nd out of 317 eligible players – that right at the top 25% of all players.

A PER of 14 or higher currently represents roughly the top 33% of all players. So, based on this year’s performance (as measured by PER), the Wolves have 4 guys playing at a “top third” level, of which one is our franchise player, one is last year’s lottery pick, one is a quirky reserve, and one is a career backup point guard. No wonder we’re 4-13…

by highpockets on Dec 5, 2008 8:11 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's going to fluctuate a bit...

….over the year as he adjusts to the league, but if he can land anywhere in between 16-18, I think that’s a success…provided he hits a few other numbers and doesn’t fall off a cliff on defense. I was going to post about it after the 20th game but you hit the nail on the head with this team being filled to the brim with below average players. The personnel on this team clearly isn’t as good as we thought it was….which was in the 30 win range anyway.

As a quick aside, check out this Wages of Wins post on Sam Mitchell and the Raptors:

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/sam-mitchell-learns-that-bad-shopping-can-get-you-fired/

It’s mostly about the personnel decisions, not the coach.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 5, 2008 8:44 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

interesting

Unfortunate for Wolves fans it is the personnel AND the coach. I’m going to go cry now.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you

by GopherNation on Dec 5, 2008 9:09 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know this guy,

but on first read, I’d have to say this is a great example of the problems of doing a strictly numbers-based analysis, or putting numbers ahead of basketball knowledge. The problem starts at the very beginning of the article:

The latest coach to experience this problem is Sam Mitchell. Mitchell became head coach of the Toronto Raptors in 2004. After two losing seasons, the Raptors won 47 games in 2006-07 and Mitchell was named Coach of the Year. The team’s record, though, was a bit of a mirage. Toronto’s efficiency differential (offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency) was only 1.04, a mark consistent with only 44 victories.

Last year the Raptors improved. The team’s efficiency differential rose to 3.12, the best mark in franchise history. Although this differential is consistent with a 49 win team, Toronto only won 41 contests. Consequently, it appeared that Toronto took a step back.

“It appeared that Toronto took a step back”??? Anyone who watched the games could see that Toronto regressed horrendously last year. It’s not only the numbers of wins (btw is this guy saying the Raptors basically won 5 more games last year than the year before? what is he doing, counting margin of victory?), but the way they lost: there was a horrible streak toward the end of the year where they just could not win a game. Not only did they regress from one year to the next, they also did so over the course of the season. And this guy says they improved? Red flag for me right there.

I just don’t like the way this guy thinks at all. “Wins produced per position” – surely this is still a team game, and the whole is more than the sum of its parts, just as (to go along with the cooking metaphors he uses) the dish is more than the sum of its ingredients? Likewise what he says about Bargnani – above average 3, below average 4, etc. – surely what counts is the way that one plays a certain position, rather than simply the numbers that are produced there; and surely the way players play their positions depends to a great extent on the schemes drawn up by the coach? (One of the reasons Mitchell was fired was his perceived inability to get enough out of the former no.1 pick.) This guy makes it sound like there’s only one way to play a position, as though players were pieces on a board.

Anyways forgive the rant, but this is something I’ve been thinking about a fair bit lately.

by plinytheelder on Dec 5, 2008 1:32 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Excellent take Pliny

I couldn’t agree on the “numbers based analysis.” It comes down to wins and losses. Putting the ball in the basket more often than your opponent for 48 minutes. All those other numbers are way down the list to what ultimately matters – Who won?

Still, I like Mitchell and think he’d be all right for the WOlves. But, more than the Wolves needing a new coach, they need a new team in the FO.

by Andy B on Dec 5, 2008 2:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So with Memphis and Minny both at 4 wins...

…and with UCLA going to the Final Four…

;)

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 5, 2008 2:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure I get it

but, its my fault. I didn’t read the link (can’t get it here at work), so I was just commenting on what Pliney offered.

I like numbers and I really like your use of them SnP, in providing support for your insights into teams and players. But, from what I read from Pliney’s post, I’d say that this guy arguing that the Raptors got better when they actually got worse using efficiecy differentials is a little shaky. Sometimes, you just have to say that a team has no heart (WOlves) and loses games and a coach should be judged against that and not efficiency differentials.

by Andy B on Dec 5, 2008 2:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think...

…the 30,000 foot view Berri is taking is that Mitchell was felled by bad GM’ing, not coaching. The Raptors are bad because they don’t have a lot of good players. Ditto the Wolves.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 5, 2008 3:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

Someone needs to write the basketball stats Da Vinci Code!

by plinytheelder on Dec 5, 2008 6:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ironic - Wages of Wins

Berri’s hypothesis is that players are paid for how well they score, not how well they contribute to winning. Putting the ball in the basket is great, but the game is more about scoring; it’s also about denying the other team the ability to score, as you correctly stated. There are a finite number of possessions in a game (only so many minutes on the clock and only so many possessions a team has to win) and the team which does the most with those possessions (aka efficiency). That’s the framework from which Berri makes his argument. His metric is simply his way of applying that idea.

As for pliny – you seem to be basing your entire opinion of Wins Produced based on the smell test of one team and one small stretch of games. I’ve found that it does a pretty solid job of projecting teams overall.

As for the logic that the “whole is more than the sum of its parts”; is that true in basketball? If you got a bunch of average players together on one team, would they suddenly turn into an above average team? I think if this were true, it would likely show up somewhere in the stats; subjective and objective reasonings do not necessarily have to battle for supremacy.

In any case, I feel as if I may be misinterpreting your comments; do you have a more concrete example of what you mean by “the whole is more than the sum of its parts”? I don’t mean to put you down or anything and I’d like to understand more of where you’re coming from.

by KMils on Dec 6, 2008 12:08 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No problem, I don’t take it as a put-down. Thanks for your interesting response; I’ll try to respond in kind. Re: wins produced: you say that I use “one small stretch of games.” But surely 2 seasons (175 games for the Raptors, including playoffs) is a pretty good stretch of games? The single most egregious statement the writer of the article makes, in my opinion, is “Last year the Raptors improved.” This is patently false. My point is that, from a numbers standpoint, it may be true…but if this is the case, it’s a fantastic example of why one needs to look beyond the numbers. Over this two-year stretch, the Raptors went from a team that played like a team, a team that was a pleasure to watch, a team that won 47+2 games, to a team whose parts stopped meshing, a team that underachieved, a team that won 41+1 games. Anyone who knows the game and watched the Raptors could see this. If the numbers say different, there’s something deeply wrong with the numbers.

Re: “the whole is more than the sum of its parts”: I think the only way one can disagree with this statement is if one puts numbers ahead of a feel for or knowledge of the game. It’s not about a group of average players; what I’m saying is, given two fairly equal teams, the one that plays more like a team and is better coached is probably going to win. You say this would probably show up in the stats, but in the only case we’re touching upon here – the Raptors from one year to the next – the stats, if the Wages of Wins post is to be believed, say the opposite.

I should admit a personal bias of mine: I think the phenomenon of placing numbers before thinking is one that is rampant and growing everywhere in society, and I think it’s something that needs to be criticized wherever it is found. One could take examples from almost anywhere: “no child left behind”/standardized testing, the use of GDP figures to show that things are better in poor countries than they once were, “productivity” measurements of labour, etc etc.

Anyways I’ll get off my soapbox. Let me end the way you did: I don’t mean to put anyone down here, I’m just trying to speak frankly. Hope this clears up, at least somewhat, where I’m coming from? Any thoughts?

by plinytheelder on Dec 6, 2008 2:38 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

since I brought stats into this, here’s my response. I like stats for two reasons: 1) human observation is unreliable, especially when it’s coupled with emotion, and 2) they show us things that cannot be seen by observation.

1) Take the Wolves, please (ba-dum ching!). Right now Wolves fans are, as I’ve said, flagellating due to the failures of the team. If you look around Canis Hoopus you’ll see plenty of people bemoaning that Jefferson isn’t a cornerstone for the team, that he’s worth less than Stephen Marbury, and that the Wolves should be considered rubes for all time. Of course, if you asked any non-Wolves NBA fan, they’d tell you that Jefferson is one of the best centers in the game. And that’s because they aren’t emotionally involved in team, because when you’re emotionally involved with a sports team, you tend to blame the leaders (on and off court) whether or not they deserve it. Additionally, people like the players that do things that they think win, like shoot, assist, and rebound. The problem is that out of those, only rebounding helps win games. Focusing on assists is a cart before the horse, since you could put Steven Nash on a team of Mark Madsens, and all his great passing isn’t going to result in a single assist. Also, shooting is vastly overrated. If a player just jacks up shots left and right, it’s almost as bad as a turning the ball over. That can actually shown by statistics. In any given season, the defense grabs roughly 70% of the rebounds. So missing 10 shots is as bad as turning the ball over 7 times. But one thing Berri shows is that players who score get paid more, and that is because we pay more attention to them. If you look at Top 20 in FGA this year, no less then 9 of the players are overrated, because while they are ball hogs, they don’t score. And yet everyone in the top 20 is considered a star to some degree.

2) Observation is incredibly unreliable at picking up two things: 1) incremental changes 2) nonactions. For incremental changes, an example from Moneyball (a very good book on the creation of modern baseball statistics) is the best one there is: for everyday baseball players, the difference between a .200 hitter and a .300 hitter is two hits a week. If you watch baseball every day you may, may, may be able to see the difference between Nick Punto and Joe Mauer at the plate, but probably not. Now, nonaction: One of the main reasons that Al Jefferson is a top 5 center in the league is that he doesn’t turn the ball over. To backtrack a little, I’ll start by pointing out that center is the most turnover prone position in basketball. Basically, centers get the ball and they either score or give the ball up. But Jefferson commits turnovers about half as often as the average center, and is below the average for any position in the game. That’s simply phenomenal, and something that you just don’t find in centers. But no one mentions it because not something that happens, it’s the lack of something. And the human brain just doesn’t notice those things. While not turning the ball over is critical, it’s not something we notice. And yet turnovers are vital to winning games. That’s why statistics are a better way to understand games.

Now, as to your specific points: One of the issues with the Raptors was that they lost an uncommon number of close games. Any given team should win half of the games that are decided by 5 points or less (long story short: “good teams win close games” is a fiction), and the Raptors only won 4 of 16. It’s essentially like a coin coming up tails 12 of 16 times. It’s certainly possible, but it’s an aberration. Also, the estimate Berri used to estimate the Raptors expected wins has a +/- of 3 wins. So if you take the aberration with the margin or error, the idea of the Raptors winning 49 last year isn’t unbelievable at all. We shouldn’t give the Raptors credit for not winning the games, but they win-loss record did not reflect the quality of the team. Also, stats disprove the GDP situation you mention, since all you need to do is look at the % of people in a third-world country living in poverty, and you can see the statement that GDP determines the health of countries is a lie. It’s a matter of knowing which statistics matter.

Which brings me to my final point: basketball stats are woefully incomplete. There is a lot of baseball statistics that are used with good cause, but baseball has 40 years of work behind it. By contrast, basketball statistics is less than 20 years old. Basketball also has no defensive statistics worth anything (personally, I would give both middle fingers for quality defensive stats), and the best we can do is by inference (like with +/- and adj. +/-). It’s a work in progess, but still very effective. And it’s certainly better than making assumptions based on watching half the games (like McHale seems to do).

by McCleak on Dec 7, 2008 12:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basketball is not Rocket Science

The team lacks aggression! Love never displayed this last year, nor did any of the Wolves since Garnett’s departure (Unless you count Madson being “rough” on the young guys in practice). No matter what any stats say comparing Love vs. Mayo, T-Wolves basketball is extremely boring to watch. Let’s say the stat listing above favors Love overall, his lack of aggressiveness, speed, and charisma is nothing against Mayo. Mayo brings consistent scoring already as 2 month pro (Not scoring like an All-Star, but better offensively than any current Wolf).

As a fan, I want a fun game to watch along with wins, but with the current regime of management (McHale) this is not desired. McHale is so obsessed with “fundamental” basketball, the excitement is lost in translation.

Wolves: Take some risks! Quit signing/trading for bums! Quit trying to signing bums then trading those same bums for more bums to compensate the original bum’s bad contracts (ala Jaric, Hassel, Hudson, etc)

by DueceDropper on Dec 5, 2008 1:19 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure about that...

… I’ll have to do some calculations.

In all seriousness, though, aren’t signing and trading for guys who turn out to be bums risks themselves? Each of the three guys you mentioned were risky signings and I think you’re right in saying they’re mostly bums (although Marko would’ve been the perfect complement to AI and Trenton was great until we asked him to score more).

What kinds of risks are you thinking?

by wyn on Dec 5, 2008 1:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shouldn't we be comparing Mayo to Foye?

Comes back to what SnP wrote in his draft preview — “McFoyo.” I think the Wolves’ brass thought that Mayo and Foye were equivalent, and if you believed that, taking Mayo was redundant. If anyone has underperformed, it’s Foye (and Shaddy, but I don’t think the FO was counting on him one bit). I think if Foye was shooting the ball the way he was at the end of last year, he’d be a little closer to Mayo ppg-wise, and would have a way better assist/to.

SnP even pointed out that Shaddy and Foye’s college #s were similar to Mayo’s. So I think the Wolves thought they made a smart move — if you already have extra Mayo (meaning McFoye) on your “delicious” AJ-Gomes-McCants-Telfair-Brewer-MadDog Sandwich, do you really want extra-extra Mayo? And if you can turn the Mayo you supposedly don’t need into 2 different condiments that are going to make that shite sandwich taste even better, AND improve your cap/draft situation, you make the deal. I really don’t have a problem with that, except that Mayo is looking better than anyone we’re trotting out in the 2-guard spot right now. Basically, Foye has been mediocre and Miller can’t/won’t get his shot off and Al isn’t good enough to carry them, and so their record stinks (oh, and the head Coach should be the #2 assistant at Cornell right now).

My take is that Love is right where he should be (though I’d like his FG% to be higher) and he’s shown plenty of reasons why we drafted him. Mayo is maybe ahead of where most expected him to be, but that has a lot to do with his age (old for a rookie with only 1 year of College) and confidence. Kudos to him. He doesn’t remind me of Roy or AI (or D. Rose for that matter) and ALL of those guys had an immediate impact on their teams w/l. Mayo hasn’t.

So to my mind, whether you want to use the stats-based analysis, or the “bottom line” approach, I think the wolves are NO worse off, and may be better off. But 17 games does not make a season, and I’d still rather we’d gotten one of the top 2 picks so we wouldn’t be having this debate.

by Sterno on Dec 5, 2008 4:55 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's my big fear with the club:

That they pass on the best combo guard of the bunch and then they land the top pick and the BPA is Blake Griffin….another undersized 4. I think the comparing Mayo to Foye point is a good one. That’s what this is about. They thought they had what they needed in Foye. Boy…Foye’s’ racking up quite the competition: first Roy now Mayo.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 5, 2008 5:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah...

…I think the Mayo-to-our-current-guards comparison is the most apt one. I was thinking the other day how it was ironic that we choose combo guard after combo guard (you could even throw Brewer in there at a stretch), and then seem to miss the best one of the bunch. Time will tell I guess, but things aren’t looking good.

by plinytheelder on Dec 5, 2008 6:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

minutes per game

I noticed you didnt include minutes per game averages. Oj mayo is averaging 39 minutes compared to Loves 23- This fact makes some of your stats irrellevant. Any PER or per 40/36 minutes stats are instantly skewed against a player that plays more time. I know you can argue that Love is not playing enough minutes, but Memphis fans would also argue Mayo is playing too many for a rookie and is running himself into the ground. Mayo already has a dominant scorer role in his team as Love has a rebounding role, at times if he doesn’t score memphis doesnt score. All stats should be presented with the relevant backhground information.

RE apples and oranges, If Mayo becomes a great SG and Love becomes a comparatively great PF, It could still be argued the wolves got the worse half of the deal.

by WhaHuh on Dec 5, 2008 9:17 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for the comment

You’re more than welcome to suggest which stats you would like to see in this measurement but I believe you’re incorrect in saying that minute or possession based stats are instantly skewed against players who play more time. Quality is still the key whether you’re a 15 minute sub or a 35 minute starter, and in the case of players who play above 20 mpg, it’s a fairly even way of measuring value once you reach a certain threshold of minutes….which both Love and Mayo have. No one is claiming your final point couldn’t be the case. That’s a straw man. I do think you have a very valid point about the number of minutes Mayo is putting up this early in the season and it will be interesting to see how he fares after 40 games.

I’m going to be focusing on % of team possession and efficiency stats in the areas of shooting, free throws, turnovers, and offensive rebounding, as well as general efficiency stats. How much does Player X have the ball and what does he do with it in terms of the four most influential parts of the game. I think this site has been more than fair in presenting relevant background information on the stats it provides and we are always open to suggestions of what type of information would make this, that, or the other post better.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 5, 2008 11:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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