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Around SBN: This Should Encourage Juan Mata

It's Sunday Night And You're Glen Taylor

Star-divide

You've been losing money on wedding card business and the Timberwolves.  You've been trying to figure out what changes you need to make, and you've come to the following conclusion:  you can afford to fire McHale or fire Wittman, but not both.  You really do want them both gone, but you simply can't do it.  So it's decision time:  do you fire McHale and have Stack, Babcock, or Hoiberg take charge, or do you fire Wittman and have McHale, Hoiberg, or Sichting coach out the season?

Poll
Do you fire Randy Wittman or Kevin McHale?
Randy Wittman
17 votes
Kevin McHale
53 votes

70 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 9 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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hey McCleak

just wanted to thank you for your post on the “Love vs Mayo” thread re: stats. I thought I’d respond here since that thread is off the front page now.

First off, I agree with several of the points, e.g. human observation/emotion, the ludicrousness of basing salaries solely on scoring, etc. And I don’t advocate completely getting rid of numbers or stats – I just think they should be used to reinforce points made through knowledge/common sense, rather than as starting points or as the basis of analysis. That’s what I took issue with in the Wages of Wins article – he was saying the team got better from one year to the next when I quite strongly feel that it didn’t, and he seemed to be basing his argument solely on numbers.

I guess my main disagreement is this: you say that there are certain things people don’t see, e.g. how strong a player Jefferson is, how two hits per week can make a huge difference in batting average, etc. And I agree, these things are hard to perceive. But what I’m saying is this: isn’t this precisely why we strive to have knowledge of the game? I don’t think most of the posters here are saying Jefferson’s not a good player; I think they’re saying that he has some specific and glaring weaknesses, e.g. help D. I for one think he’s fine as an individual defender, but he’s not very good yet at rotating, smart team D, positioning, etc. You also mention his passing, but here I also think things have to be nuanced. I for one think Jefferson is quite good at passing when it comes to finding cutters; last game, for example, he had a beautiful feed to Gomes for a layup. He has a rather beautiful flair for finding people on the inside. Where he seems to have problems, I would say, is with inside-out passing. This could be because he doesn’t trust the shooters on this team, and who would with the way things have gone so far this year.

Your point about baseball, about which I know virtually nothing, may allow us to get closer to the central issue. You say that only 2 hits per week makes a huge difference in batting average, and that this is difficult for the naked eye to see. I’d say that’s true – for a guy like me who doesn’t know the game and who just sees hitters hacking away. But what I’m saying is this: surely someone who is knowledgable can tell, just from looking at someone’s swing, whether he is swinging fluidly or not, what he might need to change, where his confidence level might be, etc. I’m saying the same thing about basketball: if someone knows the game, he should be able to make very nuanced statements that simply can’t be made with stats/numbers.

Re: the specific example of the Raptors: I guess I just disagree. You talk about the chance elements of winning or losing close games, and give the example of a coin toss. But what wins a close game? A single little detail, a deflection of the ball, knowing exactly where you will need to be to help defend, knowing exactly where on the floor your teammate wants the ball, where on his body he wants to catch it, etc. That’s why, over and over, the good teams win the important games, close or not. I don’t disrespect your view – I certainly think it’s an argument that can be made plausibly. I just happen to see things differently.

Anyways forgive my long-windedness, and thanks again for your thoughtful response.

by plinytheelder on Dec 8, 2008 11:16 PM CST reply actions  

Plinthy

Sorry about the lateness of this:

To your first paragraph, I believe the reverse is true. I believe statistics should drive common knowledge, rather than simply used to enforce it. To start with, statistics are, or should be, objective. They should represent a truth about what is happening. Simply, if the common knowledge disagrees, and the data is correct, then common knowledge is wrong. An example: one of the key bits of common knowledge in baseball is that you should have a speed guy as your leadoff hitter. It doesn’t matter how well he hits, because if he’s on base, he can run like made from with the 2-3-4 hitters coming up. And it turned out that was completely wrong (not that teams still don’t do it, see Twins, Minnesota). The best thing to do is get the guy who can get on base the most as your leadoff man. Would you rather have Carlos Gomez (who got on base 28% of the time) or Joe Mauer (who got on base 41% of the time) leading off (bear in mind that the leadoff guy also gets the most at bats in a season)? As someone who doesn’t follow baseball, I imagine that decision is a lot easier for you than the average baseball fan.

To the second paragraph, I would say that knowing statistics helps us understand a great deal of the game. It’s a major part of the striving to have knowledge. And this information doesn’t have to start from observation. Take the info on Jefferson’s turnovers. I didn’t notice anything about it, I just pulled up the numbers I crunched at the end of last season and noticed that Jefferson had a very low turnover rate. I did some more checking and found out he’s got the lowest turnover rate in the league among centers (those that count, anyway). And you know how I know that’s not something you can find by watching the game, no matter how intently they do it? Because nowhere has anyone ever mentioned it until then. Not Robson, Zogda, or anyone here. It’s something you can only see on a spreadsheet. Now, your point about the assists is well taken, and shows the problem with basketball stats: we don’t have enough good information. Personally, I find assists to be almost as useless as errors in baseball (long story short: it’s the most worthless statistic in the history of ever), but there simply isn’t very good information on ball movement in the NBA, and most of it is subjective. As for Jefferson specifically, I would guess that his inside-out game isn’t there because he hadn’t played on a team that shot the 3 until, literally, yesterday. Give him time

For the third one, I’d recommend reading Moneyball, or at least the intro to it. The intro is about Billy Beane, a player that possessed one of the best swings scouts had ever seen, and could play the field as well as anyone. The only reason he wasn’ t the #1 pick in his draft was guy named Darryl Strawberry was also in the mix. The problem was, he got utterly owned by the pitching in MLB, and essentially washed out after sporadic playing time in the majors. And it turned out you could see the Beane failure coming a mile away based on his minor-league stats. As for the nuanced comment, I’m not as comfortable speaking negatively about basketball writers, but it’s becoming increasingly obvious that stats are the way to go in baseball. Here’s the usual setup: traditional writers will talk about teams doing things the right way, how they’re going to surprise people, etc., etc. Stats writers will do the same thing. 9 times out 10, the stats predictions will be right. Example: a month into the season, stats writers were saying that Tampa Bay was the real deal, while traditional writers were saying that the Rays were an aberration and won’t be at .500 by the end of the season. Turns out the Rays were good enough to make the World Series.

As for the Raptors, I saw this is exactly where statistics are needed. And while you’re right that single details, catch and shoot skill, floor spacing, etc., it applies to both teams. Take last night. Let’s say that instead of going 2-9 on free throws, Love goes 9-9, and at the end of the game Utah does an inbound and instead of Williams swiping the ball, Gomes hawks an inbound pass to Brewer, who is forced to throw up a prayer which barely touches rim. If the Wolves won in that fashion, would anybody be shocked? Would it mean Utah is a bad team? Would it mean Minnesota is a good team? No to all of those. Additionally, this only describes buzzer beaters. Even games that are close don’t necessarily result in such tight situations. And as I said, if you take a team over a few seasons, you’re going to see it pretty much come out to 50/50, even with identical personnel. Additionally, if you want to see why I trust the theoretical win loss, I would suggest you check out Basketball Reference. On the franchises’ season pages they have the theoretical w/l and the actual win/loss for every season. If you look at it (and remembering that it has a +/- margin of 3), you’ll see it does a very good job. So even if you don’t buy my defense of the Raptors, it’s a single aberration from the theory.

I hope this helps with understanding the stats point of view. Additionally, I would definitely recommend Michael Lewis’ Moneyball, which isn’t a stats book, but rather a history of statistics in baseball, and how it helps teams win. You don’t need to know a thing about baseball to enjoy it, and it’s a very good narrative. If you’re interested in an explanation of the how and why of modern stats in basketball, I would recommend Dean Oliver’s Basketball on Paper, especially if you don’t mind reading stats.

by McCleak on Dec 10, 2008 11:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you make some great points,

and don’t get me wrong, I’m not seeking to do away with numbers. Hell, the game is based on numbers – whoever has the highest number at the end wins. And god knows the best guys for prognosticating are the number-crunchers par excellence – i.e., the Vegas guys, who literally never lose (even if they actually lose once in a while), and are falling off their wallets. I think this goes to your Tampa example. — In fact I really like that example, beyond showing how smart the numbers guys are, it goes to the lack of imagination of sportswriters (“how could they be good?”).

Who knows, maybe it’s more of an aesthetic choice on my part. My main disagreement with the numbers argument boils down to this: any analysis that purely relies on statistics implies or presupposes that everything being measured can be put on a single “plane,” a single observation table if you will. I don’t think this is the case even when the numbers add up exactly. One of my favourite sports writers is a guy named Harvey Araton who writes for the Times. In 2001, he covered the Raptors-Knicks opening round playoff series. The Raptors won in 5 (best of 5), and one of the big “duels” in the series was Vince Carter vs. Latrell Sprewell. Araton’s column on game 5 was particularly interesting, here’s the url if you’re interested:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904E2DE1F38F935A35756C0A9679C8B63&n=Top/Reference/Times20Topics/People/C/Carter,20Vince&scp=1&sq=araton20carter20sprewell&st=cse

The reason I bring up this column is this quote:

The summary of the Knicks’ last game of their 28th straight championship-less season reported that Latrell Sprewell had played Carter to a statistical draw. Twenty-nine points for Sprewell on 23 shots, and 27 for Carter on 22. Six rebounds, three assists, two steals for Carter, and four rebounds, three assists and two steals for Sprewell.

The eyes told you something else, that Sprewell was a very good player having a great night playing one-on-one. Carter, of superstar pedigree, got his numbers while making everyone else better.

Anyways the shame about this quote, and what weakens my example perhaps, is that Carter has never quite turned into the player he could really be, whether from disinterest or whatever. But as Raptors fans (and probably Nets fans too) know very well, the guy is an absolutely transcendent player when he puts his mind to it. And this is what I find interesting in Araton’s column: the fact that he has a deep knowledge of basketball, and an incredibly keen eye, means that despite the statistical similarities, he could see that something very different was going down on the 2 ends of the court. The numbers were almost the same (as was the final score), yet these two players were literally operating on different planes.

Anyways that’s basically where I’m coming from. Aside from slight disagreements – on close games (for a game to be close, doesn’t a team have to make it close in the first place; and aren’t the good teams the ones who, even on off nights, keep every game close, i.e. always give themselves a chance to win?), on last year’s Raptors (the best stuff to read on last year’s team isn’t stats, it’s Freud: that team was literally the embodiment of the death drive), on objectivity (isn’t it Heisenberg who said that the act of observing changes the phenomenon that is observed?) – I think we just approach the game from slightly different perspectives. That’s fine by me, it would be boring if everyone had the same view, and frankly I always find your comments interesting, in this and other posts. Thanks for the tip on the Oliver book, I’ll check it out. ;)

by plinytheelder on Dec 11, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

WOW

Is Kevin McFail himself deleting the cookies from his computer and voting for Witt?

by roundhouse on Dec 9, 2008 3:13 AM CST reply actions  

Nope, some of us are really happy with the demotion+firing. Though “both” would probably the lone voted option if it was there :D. That’s probably why it wasn’t included ^^.

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Dec 9, 2008 3:24 AM CST reply actions  

It was hard picking just one...

There should have been a both category. Wittman is not a capable coach.

by gill0137 on Dec 9, 2008 10:44 AM CST reply actions  

why did he always look like he was going to cry? that’s not a good look for a coach to have. well, if nothing else, the dream of “both” came true. it should be an interesting time to witness. this franchise finally made a decision that might help them get better. let’s see if it pans out.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Dec 9, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

That's not the question in the poll though...

The poll suggests that you could flat out fire either one of them. You guys seriously wouldn’t get rid of the what has been the main root of all the wolves problems for so many years in Mchale?

by roundhouse on Dec 9, 2008 1:51 PM CST reply actions  

Not first, the most immediate impact is changing the coach, the long term impact is bigger with the VP. Firing Wittman first because of money issues doesn’t give McHale a free pass to stick around, on the contrary, he probably should have been a coach from the beginning instead of a GM. Just as I quite firmly believe Isiah should have been a scout, not a GM.

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Dec 9, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

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