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The Importance of Possessions

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One of the ongoing debates here on the site has been the relative worth of Kevin Love vis-a-vis O.J. Mayo.  I've wrestled a bit with this myself; first calling the deal "highway robbery" before simply declaring it a win for the Wolves.

Earlier this year, when Mayo was averaging over 20 ppg while his Griz doubled up the Wolves' win total, it was pretty easy to take a fantasy ball glance at the box score and come away with the conclusion that Mayo is Brandon Roy 2.0 to Love's latter day Randy Foye.  The problem with this is that it has never really been the case.  Let me explain.

What is the single most important thing a basketball player can do at any single point in any given basketball game?  A: He can end a possession in his team's favor.  That's it.  It's that simple.  There are many, many ways in which a possession can be favorably ended: made shots, steals, blocked shots that go to a teammate, and rebounds.  There are also many, many ways in which a possession can be favorably extended: offensive rebounds, balls tipped to teammates, and fouls drawn. 

On the flip side of the possession coin is the fact that there are many, many ways in which a possession can be unfavorably ended: missed shots + defensive rebounds, turnovers, and fouls. 

One of the most baffling things that is frequently mentioned in casual conversation about basketball is the concept of high leverage possessions (end of quarter, half, and game; close situations) being "worth" more than any other non high leverage possession during the game.  Mentally, there is something to be said about the ability of a player to rise to the task when the going gets tough, but as far as the scoreboard is concerned, all possessions are equal and there are many ways in which a player can be effective above and beyond putting the ball in the bucket.  Which brings us to possession-based stats, the Wolves, and the Griz:

Wolves Griz
Pace 92 90
OE (points/100 poss) 105.2 102.8
DE (points given up/100 poss) 109.4 109.3
eFG 47.1 48
OReb% (% of available missed shots grabbed) 28.6 24.6
FT/FG (Free throws made per shot attempt (100*FTM/FGA) 22.9 24.9
TO (to/100 poss) 15.3 15.9
DeFG 50.9 52.4
DTO (to forced/100 poss) 14.3 16.6
DOreb% (% of available opponent missed shots given up) 25 24.9
D FT/FG 22 24.8

Now let's imagine a 100 possession game for the Wolves against a generic opponent.  The Wolves score 105 points, give up 109, shoot the ball 3.8% poorer than their opponents, collect 3.6% more of their misses than their opponents, and are relatively FT and TO neutral.  Breaking this down even further, the Wolves get roughly 23 points from the line and 82 from the floor during a 100 possession game. If you are having trouble conceptualizing 100 possessions in terms of an honest-to-Pete game, just think of it in terms of a basketball batting average.  The Wolves average 19 FTM and 36.6 FGM per game.  However, each game has a different number of possessions so it is necessary to talk about performance in terms of percentage rather than net numbers. 

Let's take a quick step out of our generic game for a moment and head into another generic scenario.  Throwing out any other stats, if a team is scoring 82 points from the floor during a 100 possession game this means that with an eFG of .471 they are making roughly 41 shots and missing roughly 44.  Again, setting aside anything else, this falls in line for a team that gives up roughly 15 turnovers per 100 possessions.  It's not perfect and I'm admittedly leaving out a few details but this is pretty much how the Wolves perform over a period of 100 possessions. 

In order for our generic Wolves to win and improve, what do they need to do?  The generic talk radio take is that they need to improve defensively, especially down the stretch.  While this is certainly partially true, it doesn't tell the whole story.  Again, I can not say it enough: all possessions are equal and the sort of end-of-game/situation defense that you can hear being talked about up and down the dial is largely a mental creation.  Its importance is given greater weight because of the tension and leverage associated with close games, ends of quarters, and so on and so forth.  Emotion removed, a possession is a possession is a possession.  And no, I've played enough organized ball to know you can't remove emotion and I'm not arguing that there isn't something to be said about high leverage possessions being different than "regular" ones; it's just that their value isn't something that can be easily quantified; it's hustle, grit, and player disposition. 

At the most fundamental level, the Wolves' recent winning ways can be attributed to a substantial increase in offensive efficiency.  The Wolves can continue to win and improve by increasing their generic 100-possession eFG to somewhere between 49-50% (which would put them between 16th and 11th in the league) .  If they continued to take around 85 shots/game (again, this is very generic and meant only for illustrative purposes), this would mean that instead of making 41 shots per 100 possessions, they make roughly 42-43 shots per 100 possessions (I'm folding in 3pa with eFG) and their points/100 possessions would go up between 2-4 points/100 possessions...which is a pretty big deal and has been reflected in their recent 10 game stretch. 

Another benefit of shooting better from the field is that the Wovles are an upper-level offensive rebounding squad.  The Wolves grab 28.6% of available misses, which is good for 6th in the league.  If they increase their makes, and if they are able to maintain their rebound rates, they increase their percentage of favorably extended, and hopefully ended, possessions.  Keep in mind that the Wolves are still one of the poorer shooting teams in the league.  Keep in mind that nearly 1/2 of their games were played at Wittman's pace.  Keep in mind that they only recently took Foye off the ball.  Keep in mind that Kevin Love is still learning how to adjust to NBA defenses.  Keep in mind that Mike Miller is in a massive rut.  Keep in mind that this team doesn't have a play maker that can shoot the ball.  Keep in mind that this team doesn't have a starting-level small forward.  While improved situational, transitional and help defense would no doubt further increase their effectiveness, this particular group of small-ball, offensively-minded players still has a world of room to improve on the offensive end of the court and a lot of it has to do with better shooting, offensive rebounding, and better play making to spread out the floor.  If the Wolves can extend their offensive efficiency throughout the rest of the year, and if they can add an offensively efficient point and SF, they can put an enormous amount of pressure on opposing teams by maintaining an upper-level number of points/100 possessions.

Getting around to the original intent of this post (and being as straight forward as possible), Kevin Love does more to help his team by way of favorably ended/extended possessions than O.J. Mayo does for his and it's really not even close. 

Love Mayo
Pts/game 8.4 19.4
PER 16.5 15.9
eff/40 22.3 16.6
ws/40 12.1 4.6
pts/poss 1.30 0.99
fta/poss 0.55 0.17
ast/poss 0.18 0.15
ORebR 16.5 2.4
DRebR 26.6 11.5
AstR 10.7 12.5
TOr 13.3 11.1

I'll ask it again: What is the single most important thing a basketball player can do at any single point in any given basketball game? How do these two players favorably end possessions?  How do they avoid unfavorably ending possessions.  How do these favorables and unfavorables play within the context of how their teams play? 

O.J. Mayo is a fairly decent rookie scorer.  He has a superior eFG than Love and he scores nearly 20 ppg for the Griz.  Put into the 100 possession mix, he accounts for roughly 10-20 shooting.  Beyond that, his success compared to Love is largely a measure of the number of minutes and possessions he accounts for on his particular team.  Mayo is averaging 37.4 mpg compared to Love's 22.8.  He factors in 21.4% of his team's possessions compared to Love's 6.8%. 

Now take a look at what each player does per possession.  Kevin Love leads O.J. Mayo in efficiency stats for a reason.  He averages 1.3 points/possession compared to Mayo's 0.99.  He averages 0.55 free throws/possession compared to Mayo's 0.17.  He accounts for more assists per possession than does the USC product. 

Moving on to player rates, Kevin Love is destroying Mayo on the glass while remaining close on assists and turnovers.  Love is grabbing a mind-bending 16.5% of his team's misses when he is on the court.  This leads the league.  At 22 mpg, he has the league's 5th most net offensive rebounds.  Not only does Love clean up the offensive glass (favorable possession extension) but he himself limits opponents from collecting an amazing 26.6% of their misses.  Not only is that absurd, but it makes up for a lot on the defensive end of the court.  The very best offensive players in the league carry an eFG of around 60%.  This means that 40% of their shots are available for rebounding.  Kevin Love is not that small and not that unathletic where he can't provide a modest amount of defense even on the best players in the league.  If he by himself rebounds roughly a quarter of the other team's misses, even if an opponent goes 6/10 against him from the floor, he lowers the possibility of further damage more than a better defending but poorer rebounding hypothetical replacement.  Ideally you'd have the best of both worlds, but with the improvement that Love has shown on the defensive end of the court already, his rebounding will be even more of an asset as he learns how to play better defense.

Plugging this thing back into our generic 100 possession game, with each players' percentage of team possessions, they break down as follows Love/Mayo:

  • Points/100 team possessions: 8.84/21.186
  • FTA/100 team possessions: 3.74/3.638
  • Ast/100 team possessions: 1.224/3.21

What, outside of net points, falls anywhere close to a 6.8 to 21.4 team possession ratio?  What player rate does O.J. Mayo have that even comes close to outperforming Love?  What is Mayo doing above and beyond Love outside of scoring/shooting in terms of favorably ending team possessions/avoiding unfavorably ending team possessions?

Kevin Love presents the Wolves with a few challenges.  He started off the season shooting like garbage and he, along with Al Jefferson, make up what can only be described as an undersized and defensively-challenged front court.  These challenges are reflected in the team stats as a whole; the Wolves are a poor shooting team that gives up a fairly decent number of points.  However, Love counter balances these unfavorable possession enders (giving up points, missing shots) with upper level rebound rates and possession-based stats that not only out-perform Mayo as a percentage, but compare quite well when stretched out over 100 possessions and plugged into team possession percentages.  More philosophically, which player helps/hurts their team's best player from the prior season: Kevin Love and Big Al or Mayo and Rudy Gay?

Let's imagine that both Love and Mayo play 36 mpg:

Per 36 Minutes

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE ▪ Click column headers to sort
RkPlayerFromToGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1 Kevin Love 2009 2009 38 5 865 4.5 10.8 .421 0.0 0.5 .077 4.2 5.7 .743 5.4 7.8 13.2 1.9 0.7 1.0 2.3 3.7 13.3
2 O.J. Mayo 2009 2009 39 39 1475 6.9 15.6 .445 1.8 4.6 .379 2.9 3.2 .886 0.7 3.2 3.9 2.8 1.0 0.1 2.5 2.1 18.5
 

Again, basketball is all about ending more possessions favorably than does your opponent.  How much are +5.2 points/36 minutes worth?  How much are +11 points/game worth?  Are they worth more than Love's +14.1% ORR? Are they worth more than #42's +15.1% DRR? Take a look at Memphis' eFG.  What type of player do you think has more value on a poor shooting club with a bad front court: a guy with an eFG of 50% or a guy who collects a league leading percentage of offensive rebounds?  Are +5.2 points/36 minutes worth more than superior pts, asts, and fta/possession stats?  What can O.J. Mayo do to offset his declining eFG%? His declining 3p%?  Is he generating more steals? Less turnovers? More free throws?  Is he ripping rebounds away from Shaquille O'Neal and Dwight Howard and tapping loose balls to teammates?  What else does he do to favorably end/extend possessions besides shooting the ball (with a rapidly decreasing percentage; check out his splits over his last 5/10)?

I'm playing a bit of a sleight of hand here. This trade was never about Mayo v. Love.  The Wolves needed a front court player and if Love's worth is to be compared to anyone, it is Brook Lopez.  Not only are both players big men, but New Jersey had the resources to make an attractive deal with the Wolves.  Nope, the trade was made because the Wolves were supposed to already have a slightly undersized combo guard capable of starting at one of the guard positions while pulling down at least reserve numbers at the point.  What was this whole post about?  Two things: first, I wanted to give an example of the importance of looking at basketball in terms of possessions.  Second...well, take a look:

 

Per 36 Minutes

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE ▪ Click column headers to sort
SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2006-07 23 MIN NBA 82 12 1879 5.7 13.2 .434 1.3 3.5 .368 3.1 3.7 .854 0.9 3.2 4.2 4.4 1.0 0.4 2.9 3.5 15.9
2007-08 24 MIN NBA 39 31 1259 5.7 13.2 .429 1.7 4.2 .412 1.5 1.9 .815 0.4 3.3 3.7 4.7 1.0 0.1 2.3 2.9 14.6
2008-09 25 MIN NBA 38 33 1323 5.9 13.9 .427 1.3 3.7 .350 3.0 3.5 .867 0.5 3.0 3.5 4.9 1.1 0.4 2.3 3.3 16.2
Career NBA 159 76 4461 5.8 13.4 .430 1.4 3.8 .377 2.6 3.1 .852 0.6 3.2 3.8 4.6 1.0 0.3 2.5 3.3 15.6

I am fairly certain that Kevin Love will always be as good of if not a better player than O.J. Mayo.  That's gravy from the get-go.  Add in Mike Miller, expiring contracts, and a servicable Brian Cardinal and the trade looks even better (although it would look really good if Miller could hit the broad side of a barn or if he were moved for expiring contracts).  What really will push the Love/Mayo deal over the top is if Randy Foye is as good or better than O.J. Mayo.  This becomes even more of an important point if Mike Conley doesn't pan out or is traded (he shouldn't be).  I'll ask it again: how well does Mayo play with the Griz's past two draft picks compared to how Love plays with Jefferson and Foye? In their 1st years, Love and Mayo are effectively replacement players.  Love will eventually replace Ryan Gomes and Craig Smith as the Wolves' starting 4. Mayo has replaced Mike Conley as the Griz's lead guard.  Forget stats, the Griz made the wrong move in terms of relative value for wins produced, salary, draft picks, improvement over replaced player, and roster space.  They brought in a guy who has given them nearly 20 ppg but who does little else while not being able to play nice with Conley and Gay. 

The moral of the story: defense doesn't always win championships and the team with the "better" player doesn't always win the deal.  I should have stuck with my guns and not given in on the highway robbery take. 

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Comments

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Wim,

I just read about this attack, my condolences mate, hope everyone over there is doing OK.

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

yea it’s pretty wild. Especially since it’s with kids again, for some reason all the child stuff seems to happen here. I always try to look at that kind of thing from a macroscopic kind of view but still, you still wonder how such a thing can happen.

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Jan 24, 2009 2:20 AM CST up reply actions  

“All possessions are equal” ignores a couple things that are especially significant to pro ball. First, the 82-game schedule is a grind, and there are many nights when the best teams and players wait until the 4th Quarter to hit that extra gear. Second, there’s a much-more conscious effort to include everybody for three quarters to help gain rhythm and flow, until the 4th Quarter, when the go-to guy gets the rock every possession. That may not have much bearing on Mayo-Love yet, but it’s worth mentioning. Yes, the first three quarters are important, but no, they are not as important as the 4th. This is less true in the playoffs, however, when teams are going all-out, all the time.

I’d be interested to see a Love vs Rose comparison, with some of the numbers that show Love doing better than Mayo. I’m about 108% sure that Rose will have a much better career than Love, so if Love wins that battle, it would kind of discredit the methodology, at least in trying to call one guy a better draft pick than the other.

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 8:01 AM CST reply actions  

Thanks for the input..

…I think your first point is faulty and at first, as a long-suffering Wolves fan who has had to watch his favorite team get daggered in the 4th by teams who seemingly coast through the 1st 3 quarters, it seemed to fit the bill. However, does it hold true against 2 good teams? Can 2 good teams play one another evenly while one has a bad 1st quarter? It’s mental. For both the fans and the players. There is definitely something “there” (i.e. clutch, or whatever you want to call it) but in terms of points, rebounds, whatever, it’s not worth more to the scoreboard than points put up at any other time during the game. Players who can perform in high-leverage situations are worth more, but not their production vis-a-vis non high leverage production. The all-possessions-are-equal take does not ignore this. I specifically said that such things are there but not easily quantifiable.

I view 4th quarters in the NBA like the bullpen in baseball. You put the ball in the hands of your closer…your best player. When the game is on the line you go to the guy who you think gives your team the best chance to win. This still does not distract from the fact a last second shot from Chris Paul at the buzzer is exactly equal to a 1st quarter garbage tip in from Brian Cardinal in terms to the scoreboard’s bottom line.

I don’t really know what a Love v. Rose comparison would do. I said in the post that the comparison isn’t even Love v. Mayo. They’re massively different types of players. That being said, in the spirit of all possessions mattering, here’s a breakdown between the two:

http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?year=20082F09&q=&per=pergame&qual=all&sort=6&min=20&stage=&league=NBA&Compare=Submit+Comparison&pos=&sort2=DESC&pid5B10685D=1068&pid5B1062%5D=1062

Rose has a huge PPR for a rookie along with more assists and less turnovers per possession than Love. He’s not as efficient as Love but he offsets his problem areas with other positives. Here’s a link to compare all 3 players:

http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?year=20082F09&q=&per=pergame&qual=all&sort=6&min=20&stage=&league=NBA&Compare=Submit+Comparison&pos=&sort2=DESC&pid5B2385D=238&pid5B10685D=1068&pid5B1062%5D=1062

Look at how Rose doesn’t rely on the 3 ball to score. I’ve been saying it since late November: once OJ’s jumper stops falling at a mind-numbing clip, he falls back to earth. Rose, on the other hand, is able to get in the lane and that’s a big plus over a guy like Mayo. I wouldn’t be as sure about Rose’s career being better than Love’s. Right now I’d say it’s about a 55/45 split in favor of Love with their rookie stats. Love is a possession extending machine. I think Rose has the potential to develop into a special player; much more so than Mayo, but I don’t think it’s a 108% guarantee.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

whoops...

…..i don’t think it’s a 108% guarantee that he’ll end up being better than Love.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

I probably come across as hating Kevin Love’s game, but that’s not the case. It’s just that I think his ceiling is somewhat limited and I think that’s very clear from watching him play and seeing his physical disadvantages against the better big men in the league. When you consistently write such overwhelmingly rave reviews of his game and his future, I can’t help but overcompensate by being too hard on him. I think he’s clearly going to play many years and be a consistent rebounder and all-around contributor. The part of his game that I worry about is scoring. That could be a problem if we abandon smallball and trade Jefferson. I think I’ve read enough posts/comments by now to see that plenty of fans would support us “building” more around Love than Jefferson. If we do that, we might have a real problem with inside scoring. Chicago has this right now, and a very solid Rose-Gordon-Deng trio isn’t nearly enough to make up for it. The part of building around Love that I would see working is the up-tempo nature of guys like Telfair, Foye, Carney and Brewer. Love’s rebounding and outlet passing (as well as his lack of ‘give me the ball in the half-court’) mixes better with those players. I just don’t think he’s a good-enough player to think you’re going to build a contender around. I think he would need a top-flight sidekick, like Kobe or D-Wade, in order to think that way. That might be true, also, for Jefferson, but I think that there are plenty of coaches that could form a winning strategy around Al Jefferson’s low-block game and a well-balanced perimeter attack.

The Trade has been debated to death—much by me—so I’ll leave OJ out of these comments. I think he would’ve fit in well with Jefferson & Co. from last year’s group. We also would’ve aggressively shopped Shaddy while he still had value—something to consider.

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Fair points...

..I completely agree that Love has his limitations. All players do. I’d argue that he has the tools and track record in college to become an upper-level player in spite of them. It’s pretty hard to overstate what he is doing on the boards. If you look at what he did in college and what he is doing in the pros, it’s very obvious that the area where he has the most room for improvement is shooting%. He’s carrying the rebounding over. It’s who he is as a player. It’s like Westbrook with a guard; he has the most room to improvement with increasing shooting and lowering turnovers. Mayo, for his part, came out of the gate playing like a finished product. It really was stunning how he played from the get-go.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

If Love becomes the scorer in the pros that he was in college, he’ll be quite a player. But even then, it begs the question of why did we seek an upgrade at Al Jefferson’s position, instead of Sebastian Telfair or Randy Foye’s position? Who knows…I’m not going to be Rush Limbaugh and cheer against the guy just because I don’t agree with the plans in place. I’ve enjoyed watching Love, this year.

About OJ’s fast start— It shouldn’t be held against him. He’s only 21 and isn’t a Rudy Fernandez or something that had a legit reason to be “NBA-Ready.” If anything, he looked like he wasn’t quite ready in college, when he struggled a lot more than Kevin Love did. As he improves at his Chauncey Billups/Sam Cassell-like moves with the ball, he could become one of the league’s very-best guards.

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

No one is holding it against him..

…it will just be very hard for him to hit for nearly 50% from the field and 40% from 3 while not getting to the line or facilitating the offense. As hard as it is to overstate what Love is doing on the boards, it’s hard to overstate just how well Mayo was shooting earlier this year.

BTW: How far away do you think Love is from 14-16 ppg?

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Depends on his minutes. More than being a 15 ppg guy, though, my worry is that if many fans’ dream comes true, and we ditch Jefferson to “build around” Love, we’ll be left with no go-to guys. If Love actually became a go-to guy type of power forward, in the mold of Jefferson, Amare, Boozer, etc, he would be really outstanding. My guess is that 15 ppg is more realistic, and hopefully fit into a great team structure like recent Detroit teams and slightly less recent Sacramento teams. Still, though, those teams were loaded with very good-but-not-quite-great talents. On our roster, I think Love and Jefferson have the potential to be that level, and maybe Foye does to. But we need at least two more, unless we luck out and land a superstar, somehow.

SInce you’re the master of trade and cap rules and possibilities, is there anything out there that might work for Mike Miller and our lottery pick, perhaps on Draft Night? It seems like we could be in a position like Boston was, when they dealt Jeff Green and Wally for Ray Allen. Granted, there will be no KG to add to the puzzle, but if we could get an Allen-caliber player at a position of need, we could be a team to watch. I suppose it would need to be a team that covets 2010 cap space, as well as a player in the lottery where the Wolves are drafting.

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Short of getting rid of Miller's contract now...

…the second the season flips and his deal becomes an expiring deal, it could be argued that he instantly becomes worth more in a trade and could be a nice piece a’la Wally in a deal for a nice existing player on a declining team. I’d be very interested to see how Dirk is handled in Dallas as well as Butler in DC, AK 47 in Utah, and Bosh in Toronto. I don’t think any of these guys would sign here without anything else, but would 2 draft picks + Miller and additional expiring cap filler be enough for a sign and trade? Short of those 4 pie-in-the-sky players, I think there are several other lower level guys that could be had in sign and trade. I think Marvin Williams is the best candidate.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

4th Quarter argument is a red herring

The best teams/players put up good/great efficiency numbers over 100/possessions. The whole point of it is that it takes out the variance of game-to-game situations. Do you want a 4th quarter assassin? Absolutely. Mayo hasn’t proven to be that either, so I’m not sure how that helps your argument. Plus, as SnP points out, the Wolves may (emphasis — MAY) already have that in Foye and Jefferson, making Mayo redundant.

I think if I can boil down the argument that SnP is making (and I agree with) is that a lot of people who hated the trade make this argument: “Mayo IS and always will be a better player than Love, and it’s not even close.” I think SnP has made a fairly coherent argument about the 1st part: Mayo is NOT clearly better than love right now, at least in terms of helping his team win.

Whether Love or Mayo or Rose will turn out to be the superior player is open to debate (my bet is on Rose — that’s why he and Beasley were clearly the top 2 players on everyone’s draft board), and only time will tell. However, I feel more comfortable that Rose and Love can improve the parts of their games that need improving (basically, both are adjusting to playing against bigger, faster players at their positions) than Mayo can actually change his stripes: i.e., get to the line more, reduce his TOs and increase his assists. That’s my opinion. I know it’s just an opinion.

Where i’m somewhat sympathetic to the pro-Mayo argument is defense. I like Love’s position defense and I think he’s done an adequate job given his height and that he’s a rookie. I’ll admit that I’m not a believer that an Al/Love front line can ever be good enough defensively to really lead a championship-caliber team. They need to find a defensive minded center to play alongside them for 24-30mn night and maybe play in crunchtime when you need a stop against a Duncan, and/or they need to find a jumping bean small forward — someone to make opposing players think twice about waltzing into the lane.

I think Mayo has the potential to be a good/very good defensive player. But he is a bit undersized at the two, esp against the best 2 guards like Kobe. And I think Foye has at least as much potential (whether he’ll get there is another question).

One final thought: not sure this qualifies as reporting (more just repeating what a player tells you without any critical analysis), but SI reported last week that Mayo is lobbying to move to PG, in part b/c he’s getting worn down by the bigger guards in the league. Better work on that ball handling, Here’s the link:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1150947/index.htm

by Sterno on Jan 23, 2009 8:54 AM CST reply actions  

Solid points in the 3rd paragraph...

…Mayo’s game will be hard to improve on what he did in November in December. Seriously, his shooting was that good where I think he’ll be hard pressed to hit those numbers throughout his career. Rose has a dribble drive game that is more conducive to improvement and he should be able to develop into a guy who draws more fouls to score. Mayo came out of the gate looking close to a finished product. If he’s lobbying to be the point, and he has poor chemistry with Gay, then his situation in Memphis is even more problematic because it doesn’t work well with their last 2 top picks.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 8:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Mayo to PG

I’ve heard a few of ESPN’s “experts” (Ford, Thorpe, Hollinger, etc) say that OJ’s eventual position will probably be PG. If and when Memphis decides to move in that direction I’m sure there will be major growing pains for Mayo. But it’s probably a better long-run solution.

I really enjoy the quantitative aspects of these discussions but sometimes it’s easy to forget these guys are barely old enough to legally drink (and in some cases, not). It will be interesting to see how they mature over the next couple years, learn the game, grow into their bodies, etc.

by highpockets on Jan 23, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't know...

to be honest I’m sympathetic to Andy G’s argument about 4th q possessions being more important than others. I would say that the argument is quantitatively false, but qualitatively true. As anyone who’s ever played (i.e. pretty much everyone posting here I assume) knows, the 4th q. is a different beast than the 1st: time slows down, gets chopped up (with all the FTs and timeouts); refs call the game differently; possessions become more grinding, layups almost impossible to come by (hence the very act of shooting is transformed); fatigue sets in; intensity goes through the roof. It’s almost a different sport.

Anyways I like the post in part because I’ve been in agreement about Love since the get-go, I liked the trade, I think Love has the potential to be a real star – kind of doing at the 4 what Bird did at the 3, at least in terms of all-around productivity if not scoring. If we’re talking about Mayo though, I think Andy G’s point about his age has to be taken into account…in fact I think we really need to look at his context to judge him. I’ve only seen him play once as a pro, but that one game was enough to make me really like him. I just think he plays the right way – shoots the ball very well, works really hard, is in the right place at the right time, makes very smart fundamental passes, etc. I just think he’s got something not a lot of guys have. I kind of think he’s a very Kevin Love player in that regard – completely different, of course, but similar in that he brings a lot of intangibles to the table. But there are so many things working against him in his situation: his minutes (he’s playing the equivalent of a full HS or college game every night - insane), the fact that he has no one to pass the ball to (I’m not a huge fan of Gay – I see him as a lesser version of Vince Carter), etc. I’m kind of surprised that he hasn’t co-existed better with Conley and Lowry – I find this a bit troubling. But the kid is an absolute pleasure to watch – he’s kind of a throwback. I think the trade worked well for both teams.

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree that there is something...

…different about the 4th. I mentioned it in the post but we’ve all played enough ball to know that something changes. But that’s all subjective and mental. I’m more focused on the production value, not the player value. Foye seems to be able to perform under fire. Shaddy, not so much. Eventually, spread out over a big enough sample size, I think the production value reflects player value.

PS: The Griz just fired Ivaroni today. It will be interesting to see how they respond. Mayo is already asking to be moved to the point which throws a wrench not only in Conley’s plans, but Lowry’s as well (to say nothing of his chemistry with Gay). It’s interesting. Which starting 5 would you most want to have?

Mayo
Foye
Gomes
Jefferson
Madsen

Lowry
Mayo
Gay
Arthur
Gasol
 
or

Conley
Miller
Gay
Love
Gasol

I think Memphis chose the wrong path.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah nice point

about the starting 5 Memphis could have had with Love – one thing about him is that, between his outlet passes and his smarts on the offensive end, he is a point guard’s dream – I wonder if Conley’s play wouldn’t be better with him on the floor. I may very well be letting my admiration for Mayo cloud my judgment – I just really love to watch the guy play. I don’t think pg is the right position for him, at least not right now, but I haven’t really seen him enough to make this judgment.

And yeah I did see that about Iavaroni, my first thought was that I hope the new guy, whoever he is, cuts back on Mayo’s minutes a bit. I wonder if Iavaroni felt like keeping Mayo out there was the only way he could keep his job…which would definitely be understandable to some extent.

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

It sounds like...

…they offered Avery Johnson a 5 year deal and he turned it down. If that’s the case, I think that’s a pretty big swing and a miss and if they bring in an assistant level coach to fill in the gap it seems like they didn’t really have a backup plan. Kind of weird.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

whoa!

Man…a guy’s got to really think poorly of a team if he turns down a 5-yr deal. I didn’t even know Johnson was such a hot commodity. Swing and a miss indeed.

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

He probably wants an off-season and full training camp with whoever he joins.

Hell, he could probably still have the Memphis job in June, if he wants it.

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

More here:

http://cmimemphis.com/grizblog/node/443

It sounds like the new guy is bringing in Mo Cheeks as an assistant:

My initial impression about a Hollins hire would be that it’s a coaching hire on the cheap, but the CA is also reporting that Hollins is bringing in recently deposed 76ers head coach Maurice Cheeks as an assistant, a high-profile hire that doesn’t fit that profile. In fact, I find it surprising that Cheeks would be serving under Hollins, not the other way around.

For what it’s worth, Hollins never impressed me as promising head-coach material in his stints as a Grizzlies assistant and this hire, if it does indeed happen, is not a move that inspires much confidence.

I did think it was time for Iavaroni to go, provided the team could hire a permanent coach to replace him rather than turning the team over to an in-house interim for the season. A change was needed, but a Hollins hire sure doesn’t feel like a step in the right direction.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks for the link, love the comments -

“WTF?” “Is this a joke?” “I thought we were trying to win!” ;)

I don’t know anything about Hollins but I am surprised Cheeks is serving under him…then again Cheeks is maybe my all-time favourite player (well at least top 5) so I’m biased.

ps good point Andy G about wanting a full season/training camp…I hadn’t thought of that.

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

It doesn’t seem like there are ever any big-name hires in the middle of the season. I dont’ know if that’s because they can drive up salaries in bidding wars or if they want a brief chance to mold the roster. Maybe both. Or maybe Johnson just wants the Wolves job really, really bad:)

by Andy G on Jan 23, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

It certainly...

….has more built-in assets. ;)

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Graphs and spreadsheets

Real quick question, how do you see the full graphs? Whenever someone posts a graph or a spreadsheet, the numbers on the right get cut off. Any help on how I can view them?

by Blakeley on Jan 23, 2009 9:08 AM CST reply actions  

Try wide view...

…it’s on the left side of the main page.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Scoring

The most important thing in basketball is not ending possessions in a positive way, it’s scoring. I know you guys love math around here and I respect that. It can be insightful occasionally. But I think it throws people off sometimes too, for instance when you value a steal as much as the layup that might follow it. That steal is very, very important, but it doesn’t mean much if it isn’t followed by a score. It could even hurt if the team fails to score and the momentum subsequently shifts to the other side.

The thing about all these stats is that so much of what happens in a basketball game is hard to quantify. The game is all about flow and rhythm and the mental state of the players. That’s what’s fascinating about the game to me. In baseball, it’s a lot easier to work the stats because the game is a series of single actions by single men. It’s very individual. Basketball is the opposite.

So it might be obvious that I have preferred Mayo from the beginning, but I should also say that at the same time I’m not complaining much anymore, because I love Love. The guy is awesome, and I really do value the little things. I’m just saying the little things have to be followed by putting the ball in the basket, or they don’t matter. I’ll leave you with an excerpt from a Hoops Hype column of Eddie Johnson’s from a couple years ago…

I have never been accused of being a great defender, but yet I carved out a 17-year career. I heard a story Larry Bird once told at a camp about the importance of great offense. He said, “Take a look at that gentleman standing underneath the basket on the other end of the floor. He was one of the best defenders I have ever seen play basketball. But guess what? He never played a minute in the NBA. Now let’s talk about shooting and scoring the basketball.”

by museum on Jan 23, 2009 9:26 AM CST reply actions  

A few things:

1- It’s not that all stats are weighted equal. No one is arguing this here. Let’s take a look at something like the four factors or Hollinger’s PER. Here’s a generic breakdown of the relative worth of the factors:

Shooting (40)
Turnovers (25)
Rebounding (20)
Free Throws (15)

Shooting and scoring are always going to be weighted more and while, in hindsight, I should have made more of a point to talk about the weighted nature of ending positions, this post was more about showing that there are more than a few ways to skin a cat. In formulas like PER or Win Scores, assists, blocked shots, etc are weighted for importance. For instance, Win Shares multiplies assists by .5. Steals are (I think) multiplied by .5. The thinking here is, as you say, that not all steals end in points.

Just to clarify, at no point have I or do I value a steal as much as the layup that follows it. It’s not worth that much. I feel the same way about assists. Not all assists are equal and they need to be weighted in order to be considered in any sort of player comparison.

I think you’re playing a bit of semantics with saying that ending possessions is different than scoring on the offensive end of the floor. A favorably ended possession on the offensive end is a made shot. A favorably extended possession is something like grabbing an offensive rebound or getting to the line. Are points worth more than rebounds? Of course (and this will be the subject of a follow on post about Love, Mayo, and Lopez) but it’s not as simple as lining up net numbers between two massively different players.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

It would be interesting to have some sort of stat that took ball possession related stats like steals, turnovers, and rebounds and then multiplied them by a coefficient determined using team efg and the percentage of possessions where a shot is taken when a player is on the floor. This might give some kind of estimate of points due to generation of possessions.

 However, every team needs possessions to win a game, even teams with low efficiency offenses. In one way, teams with low offensive efficiency should value possessions more because they have to win with volume of possessions instead of quality of possessions. In another way, possessions have more value for high efficiency offenses because possessions are more likely to lead to points.

There may be one type of team that should especially value possessions, teams that play zombie ball. A team that plays mediocre to poor defense and does better when a high volume of shots are taken is going to need more possessions than the other team to win the game. Granted, a team playing zombie ball isn’t a title contender, but since the wolves are two superstars away from contending for a title, it’s a nice change of pace to see the zombies win some games.

It is true that possessions are essentially worthless if you’re shooting zero percent, but since most teams make at least 38% of their shots, and the disparity between fg% usually isn’t too large, possessions are worth a lot.

As far as Kevin Love fitting onto the team goes, I don’t buy it. Love fits in great with Cory Brewer and Randy Foye. I hope Cory Brewer comes back healthy, so he and Love can form an awesome rebounding duo. Sure, Jefferson can rebound, and he is a better scorer than Love. Still, Love has shown a willingness to take on tough defensive assignments, something Al needs next to him. The way Kevin Love uses his strength to prevent his man from getting good position in the post and then to keep his man uncomfortable while shooting is pretty impressive for a rookie. Also, eventually the face up shot will start falling for Love making him a better high post offensive player. Besides, a team as bad as the wolves shouldn’t draft for need anyway, it should draft for assets, and the wolves got a boatload of assets in the trade with Memphis.

by oblivionspocket on Jan 23, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I've been fiddling with..

…a stat based something along the lines of this:

(scoring side) * .45 + [ast * poss ratio] + (steals * poss ratio] * .4 ….and so on and so forth with help value stats. Basically, you bundle up stats according to scoring, turnovers, rebounding and free throw shooting, weigh them according to four factor values and then once again for the player’s usage and possession ratios. Kevin Love factors in roughly 7 percent of the team’s possessions. I have the scoring side of the equation worked out but I’m having trouble with the other side of things being too complicated. I want it to be relatively simple. I’m trying to have a nice round number for adjusted favorable possessions.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I really like the points you make about Love,

especially mentioning the high post aspect. I’ve noticed that the Wolves have been doing more of this lately – I can’t remember if it was the Suns or Clippers game, but at one point in the 4th they ran 2 straight possessions through Love at the high post. Both were successful – one was a bounce pass to Jefferson for a basket, the other a pass to Foye in the corner for an open shot…which he missed, but of course Love got the weakside rebound (and putback if I remember right).

Nice points about his D too – if you can use your body to get your man where you want him before he gets the ball, 90% of the battle is won.

By the way S/P is that photo a film still? If so, which film?

by plinytheelder on Jan 23, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Quantifying Defense

Obviously one of the biggest issues with PER and other efficiency stats is their inability to quantify defense. You could also make the argument that standard defensive stats (steals and blocks) are pretty inadequate too. Amare and Al both get a good number of blocks, but it would be tough to argue that they’re good defensive players.

One thing that I’ve always felt could be counted is “defensive stops” and “defensive stop percentage”. I’d love to see how often Bruce Bowen leads to a missed shot or a turnover (whether he’s the one that picks up the ball and records the steal or not). Does anyone count that stat?

My actual question for anyone is: are there any good systems out there for evaluating individual defensive production? I haven’t really looked hard for any, but I’d love to see some if they did exist? I remember reading once on 82games that Troy Hudson was the worst defensive player of all time, but I forget how they proved that.

by Blakeley on Jan 23, 2009 11:33 AM CST reply actions  

This would be the golden goose of player evaluation

And I have no idea how to do it. adj +/- is a start but it has very high error rates and you need multiple years of data to make it really work. I think whatever formula you eventually came up with it would have to have an adj +/- component to it; weighted with a percentage a’la things that make up your typical “help value” style stats. I’d love to see a fouls drawn stat. I think players should get credit for that as well.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

A quck and dirty way to do it

is to look the +/- defensive stats (82 games has them for this season), and also consider defensive fouls and defensive rebounds. The big problem is that there is nothing like defensive fg% or deflections (steals are credited to the guy who ends up with the ball, not the guy that knocks it away) available. Dean Oliver has a whole section in his book on ideal and theoretical defensive stats, and started doing some work with them, but was hired by the Nuggets before it got anywhere. Another thing to check out is 82games position splits, as they include opponents PER at that position. It’s a little to inductive for me to fully endorse as a measurement (especially since it’s not weighted to the opponents’ standard), but it is useful information.

by McCleak on Jan 23, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed...

…i view these things as being different parts of a spectrum used to look at a player. You can never get the whole picture with just one part of the spectrum.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

mayn u dun went in on dem stats mayn

mayn i be gittin thowed like crazy righ now so dis righ here had me being like wait mayn but nah mean mayn it wuz straight tho.

mayn i ont evemn need any stats to look at de wolves tho mayn. All i know mayn z we gots FIENDISH FOYE, DE ANGRY WHOPPER, and DAT BOY AL mayn!!!!! And Mike Miller bout to come on mayn i can FEEL IT mayn!!! I be callin dude Miller Lite righ now and dass not an insult mayn cuz you KNOW i stay sippin on dem shits mayn!!

Less git dis W mayn Cp3 aint got nuttin on me mayN!

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Jan 23, 2009 12:25 PM CST reply actions  

Minutes played

Hi, I’m new here. Awesome, awesome stuff….

One question and one thought:

  • SNP, on points per possession, what is the denominator? Thanks.
  • I also wonder how much minutes played and Mayo’s role as lead dog affects his efficiency. Love has the luxury of going balls out for 22 minutes and playing more off of other guys, whereas Mayo has to shoulder the load. If Love was asked to be option 1A or 1B out of the gate and play 38+ mins, I bet his rebounding rate and overall efficiency takes a pretty big hit. But overall I love the analysis.

by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2009 6:37 PM CST reply actions  

Possessions..

…are estimated because they’re not an official stat. There are a few different ways to do it but here are the most common:

Possessions (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); the formula for teams is 0.5 * ((Tm FGA + 0.4 * Tm FTA – 1.07 * (Tm ORB / (Tm ORB + Opp DRB)) * (Tm FGA – Tm FG) + Tm TOV) + (Opp FGA + 0.4 * Opp FTA – 1.07 * (Opp ORB / (Opp ORB + Tm DRB)) * (Opp FGA – Opp FG) + Opp TOV)). This formula estimates possessions based on both the team’s statistics and their opponent’s statistics, then averages them to provide a more stable estimate. The formula for players is rather lengthy and can be found in Dean Oliver’s book.

There is an individual formula as well. You then simply take the possession number and use it underneath the raw numbers.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2009 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Come on

I like this site but statements like this are rediculous

“I am fairly certain that Kevin Love will always be as good of if not a better player than O.J. Mayo”

As a stats guy how can you even say this after half a season while simultaneously aknowledging Loves bad start and Mayos bad January. Of course the reverse is just as stupid. Use the stats to fill in a picture, dont use them to read into a team you dont watch play

Also all your discussions about Mayo and Conley are incorrect. Mayo hasn’t asked to play PG. Conley has lost his starting place about 4/5 times to Lowry in the last 2 seasons. Conleys lack of success (so far- played well today-with Mayo) has nothing to do with Mayo.

You wrote"lead guard" alot, who is the Wolves “lead guard”? Is it Telfair the starting PG, or Foye the starting SG? Foye will average more points (ideally 20ppg) and Telfair more assists (ideally 7+pg) everything else is a bonus. We complain about Miller not scoring/shooting because as a shooting guard that is his job, not a psuedo-point-forward.

by WhaHuh on Jan 23, 2009 9:27 PM CST reply actions  

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