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Foye in perspective or (Randy and the curious case of Gary Payton.)

 

 

To begin, I should make it clear that I'm not sold on Foye as a player; his defensive deficiencies and the fact that his field goal percentage has decreased in each of the past three years is troubling.  That being said, in the context of the greater NBA history of the development of guards of a similar size, it's way too early to make  extrapolations regarding his career.  Some players reach their peak early and then begin a descent into mediocrity or insignificance (ie. Joe Smith and Damon Stoudamire).  My point is that I don't have to be sold on Randy Foye and neither do you.  Moreover, as I'll go on to explain, even if we could or should make a judgement regarding what kind career Foye is going to have as a professional basketball player, considering the circumstances of his first three seasons, I think it'd be close to impossible to make that kind of decision.

Exhibit A, Joe Smith's rookie and sophomore season with the Golden State Warriors.  (Judging by the the current Mayo vs Love debate, by today's standards if fans were asked to predict the signficance that the the number 5 was going to have for Smith's career based upon the stastics from his first two seasons, they'd likely be projecting all star appearances or maybe the number of title rings he'd end up with, certainly not the number of draft picks that some ill-fated team with a sucker GM would initially be required to forfeit as David Stern's punishment for an under the table multi-million dollar deal that would entitle them to to a multiple year extension of Joe Smith's particular brand of mediocrity.)

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1995-96 20 GSW NBA 82 82 34.4 5.7 12.5 .458 0.1 0.3 .357 3.7 4.8 .773 3.7 5.1 8.7 1.0 1.0 1.6 1.7 2.7 15.3
1996-97 21 GSW NBA 80 80 38.6 7.3 16.2 .454 0.2 0.6 .261 3.8 4.7 .814 3.3 5.2 8.5 1.6 0.9 1.1 2.4 3.1 18.7

 

Exhibit B, Damon Stoudamire's rookie and sophomore seasons with the Toronto Raptors.  Again, today's NBA fan would be advocating for the Mighty Mouse's early inclusion in to the hall of fame, where he'd be seated alongside a pantheon of great players whose performance define exemplary guard play during the game's first century; rarified air reserved for Zeke, Cousy, Magic, and the Big O.  I reckon their best guesses for  Stoudamire's career averages would be no where in the ballpark of 13 points and 6 assists per game.

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1995-96 22 TOR NBA 70 70 40.9 6.9 16.1 .426 1.9 4.8 .395 3.4 4.2 .797 0.8 3.2 4.0 9.3 1.4 0.3 3.8 2.4 19.0
1996-97 23 TOR NBA 81 81 40.9 7.0 17.4 .401 2.2 6.1 .355 4.1 5.0 .823 1.1 3.0 4.1 8.8 1.5 0.2 3.6 2.0 20.2

 

Exhibit C., The case Gary Dwayne Payton (who closely resembles Foye in terms of physical stature and athletic ability); statistically speaking the first three years of the Glove's career are not at all that dissimilar from Foye's first three years in the NBA.  The biggest exceptions being in the categories of assists and steals.  Most notably, steals; out of the gate Payton displayed an apptitude for playing perimeter defense and was almost immediately one of the league's more prolific ballhawks who played such tight fitting defense that it earned him the knickname of "the glove."

It is possible, however, that Payton outperformed Foye in this area because his steal totals were bolstered by the presence of the Sonics strong interior defense (As a team, the Supersonics averaged more than 100 blocks per season during the first 3 years of Payton's career than the Timberwolves have during the beginning of Foye's career).  The strong interior defensive presence of the Sonics afforded Payton the room to take risks on defense and aquire more steals.  Similarly, between the 1990-1991 and 1992-1992 seasons, the Sonics roster was stocked with a veritable plethora of skilled offensive players and shooters in comparision to the offensive detritus that has filled the wolves roster during the beginning of Foye's career.  It is possible, though not probable, if Foye had been playing with better offensive players his assist totals would be very similar to those put up by Payton during his first three seasons.  I'll underscore this by pointing out the shooting percentages of the top eight rotation players from their teams during the first three years of their careers (excluding, of course, the field goal percentages of Payton and Foye); during this time none of the top eight players in the Sonic rotation shot less than .450 ( In the 92-93 season, Danna Barros shot .451 from the floor and in the 91-92 season, Eddie Johnson had a .459 fg percentage); conversely, during Foye's first three seasons the Wolves have had an astounding NINE players shoot less than .450 from the floor.  It's possible, if not probable, that Payton's play had quite a bit to do with the the Sonic's shooting efficiency.  However, when assessing Foye's three year assist totals, one should take caution to not underestimate the impact to whom he's been passing the ball have had on those totals.  The paucity of quality offensive performers on the Wolves' roster during Foye's first three seasons can be correlated to the higher scoring totals (and very likely, lower shooting percentage) that he's had  in comparison to third year Payton.

Gary Payton

Position: Guard
Height: 6-4    Weight: 180 lbs.

Per Game

Glossary ▪ Hide Partial Seasons ▪ CSV ▪ PRE ▪ Click column headers to sort

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1990-91 22 SEA NBA 82 82 27.4 3.2 7.0 .450 0.0 0.2 .077 0.8 1.2 .711 1.3 1.6 3.0 6.4 2.0 0.2 2.2 3.0 7.2
1991-92 23 SEA NBA 81 79 31.5 4.1 9.1 .451 0.0 0.3 .130 1.2 1.8 .669 1.5 2.1 3.6 6.2 1.8 0.3 2.1 3.1 9.4
1992-93 24 SEA NBA 82 78 31.1 5.8 11.7 .494 0.1 0.4 .206 1.8 2.4 .770 1.2 2.3 3.4 4.9 2.2 0.3 1.8 3.0 13.5

Randy Foye

Position: Guard
Height: 6-4    Weight: 210 lbs.

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2006-07 23 MIN NBA 82 12 22.9 3.7 8.4 .434 0.8 2.3 .368 2.0 2.3 .854 0.6 2.1 2.7 2.8 0.6 0.3 1.9 2.2 10.1
2007-08 24 MIN NBA 39 31 32.3 5.1 11.8 .429 1.6 3.8 .412 1.4 1.7 .815 0.3 2.9 3.3 4.2 0.9 0.1 2.0 2.6 13.1
2008-09 25 MIN NBA 32 27 34.8 5.4 13.1 .413 0.9 3.0 .289 2.8 3.3 .857 0.5 3.1 3.5 4.9 1.1 0.4 2.4 3.2 14.5

 

Payton's breakout season didn't occur until the 1994-1995 season during the fifth year of his career when he experienced a 4 point improvement in his scoring average.   During Payton's fifth season he also impoved his averages in all shooting categories, steals, assists, and rebounds.

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS

1994-95 26 SEA NBA 82 82 36.8 8.4 16.4 .509 0.9

2.8

.302 3.0 4.2 .716 1.3 2.1 3.4 7.1 2.5 0.2 2.5 2.5 20.6

 

If 1994-1995 can be considered as being Payton's "breakout" season, then the seven years that followed, beginning with the 95-96 season and ending the season before he left Seattle in 2001-2002, should be thought of as the "prime" seasons of his career.

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS

1995-96 27 SEA NBA 81 81 39.0 7.6 15.8 .484 1.2 3.7 .328 2.8 3.8 .748 1.3 2.9 4.2 7.5 2.9 0.2 3.2 2.7 19.3
1996-97 28 SEA NBA 82 82 39.2 8.6 18.1 .476 1.5 4.6 .313 3.1 4.3 .715 1.3 3.3 4.6 7.1 2.4 0.2 2.6 2.5 21.8
1997-98 29 SEA NBA 82 82 38.4 7.1 15.6 .453 1.6 4.8 .338 3.4 4.6 .744 0.9 3.6 4.6 8.3 2.3 0.2 2.8 2.4 19.2
1998-99 30 SEA NBA 50 50 40.2 8.0 18.5 .434 1.7 5.6 .295 4.0 5.5 .721 1.2 3.6 4.9 8.7 2.2 0.2 3.1 2.3 21.7
1999-00 31 SEA NBA 82 82 41.8 9.1 20.3 .448 2.2 6.3 .340 3.8 5.2 .735 1.2 5.2 6.5 8.9 1.9 0.2 2.7 2.2 24.2
2000-01 32 SEA NBA 79 79 41.1 9.2 20.1 .456 1.3 3.4 .375 3.4 4.5 .766 0.9 3.6 4.6 8.1 1.6 0.3 2.6 2.3 23.1
2001-02 33 SEA NBA 82 82 40.3 9.0 19.2 .467 0.9 2.9 .314 3.3 4.1 .797 1.0 3.9 4.8 9.0 1.6 0.3 2.5 2.2 22.1

When I think of Payton as a NBA player, I envision the guard who who threw half court alley-oop passes to Shawn Kemp against the Phoenix Suns during the 92-93 Western conference finals or the human hurricane that disrupted the Bulls passing lanes and collected bushels of steals during the 95-96 finals. The Payton I don't think of is the trash talking young frenetic guard whose combined first three season scoring average was only in the single digits.  If someone like Gary Payton didn't become Gary Payton until he entered into his fifth season, shouldn't we be a bit more patient with Randy Foye.  It's very likely that the impatience experienced by his detractors stems from the frequent comparisons that have been made to his contemporaries playing at the lead or off guard position who've enjoyed greater statistical success during their first three NBA seasons (the notable examples being Mayo, Rose, Williams, Paul, and  Roy.)

The pace at which a player develops is affected by the presence of several integral variables that are determinative factors of a player's intial success.  Integrants predictive of early success include, but are not limited to: the quality of the coaching the player has experienced both antecedent and during the initial stages of his pro career; the acumen of his team's front office at evaluating talent, discerning team needs, and its ability to make the appropriate player transactions; roster and coaching stability; lack of any injuries that might either limit his playing time (or number of games played) or inhibit/diminish the player's natural ability; the talent level and character displayed by his teammates; and the modeling and support offered to the player from his team's veteran leadership.  In nearly every one of these categories each of the aforementioned players has had a consequential advantage over Foye.  

I think I can safely assume the support from anyone who's spent the last three years observing (suffering?) the Kevin McHale constructed Minnesota Timberwolves, in my belief that Randy Foye has been bereft in near totality of any the factors that i've denoted as being conducive to a player's initial NBA success.  In his short professional career, Foye has existed, persisted, and resisted underneath the sun blighting and soul crushing weight of systemic failure enacted and perpetuated by Kevin McHale's incompetence.  Simply put, through an unwavering steadfast commitment to ineptitude at performing any and all tasks required of a competent NBA general manager (from coaching decisions to player transactions), Kevin McHale has willed into existence the perfect storm of suck during which Foye has struggled to begin his NBA career.   Shitty coaching and personnel decisions=arrested development of young players.

In conclusion, a player's fast start does not necessarily project to extended career greatness; nor does a player's slow start necessarily mean he's going to be a bust.  To fairly appraise the strengths, defecinicies, and potential for success of a young player there are a several variables that ought to be considered.   Moreover, it often takes a player at least five years of seasoning before they have their "breakout" season.  Therefore, if there is any chance that Foye might be able to achieve future greatness (or even consistent goodness) there has to be a significant improvement in his playing environment, which would require a wholesale change in Minnesota's front office.  As it stands, Kevin McHale has done Foye and the fans of the Minnesota Timberwolves a great disservice in not providing an adequate environment  to foster the development of its young players.  In reality McHale has done the exact opposite, in favor of good personnel decisions his decisions have led to instability in the coaching staff and he's made (at best) suspect player transactions.  The lack of continuity in the Wolves' coaching staff and the poor player transactions have been barriers to the development of the team's young players.  If Foye is going to improve, or for that matter any of the Wolves' young players are going to become successful NBA players, McHale and the entire front office has to go.  We really can't judge Randy Foye until he's free of McHale doing anything and everything he possible can to destroy Foye's career.

A final note for discussion... Has Glen Taylor done anything in the last decade that would suggest to Wolves' fans or players that they have any reason to be optimistic that he can make a competent personnel decision?   Coherent thought will be paramount in finding the sort of person that will be able to build and run a consistently comptetive basketball team.  There is little evidence to suggest that Taylor is capable of that kind of sound basketball decision making.  It isn't enough that Taylor clean house, first he's going to have to hire a reputable basketball person to actually hire the people who will make the coaching and player decisions.  To get out of this mess Taylor is going to have to hire someone to hire someone!!!

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Comments

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Great Post!

I suppose I didn’t realize that Payton’s first two seasons were so mediocre. A thing that has already stuck out to me this year about Foye is that he’s much more consistent at finishing around the basket. Last year he didn’t really attack the basket much (possibly knee related), and the year before he threw up some awful shots when he got close. His improvement gives me hope…

I’d also suggest that you look at Chauncey Billup’s numbers (both traditional and efficiency). They are pretty similar to Foye’s too.

by Blakeley on Jan 4, 2009 8:56 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great, great post

And I think people should at least consider the notion of a lack of continuity hurting a player’s development (something that always comes up when discussing underperforming quarterbacks: “Jason Campbell’s had ’leventy-teen offensive coordinators in the last seven years!”).

Coaches have three different outcomes in affecting a player’s development: nurture, retard, or get out of the way. I don’t think think Foye has received much freedom or development from above in his short career, and there are so many times when his expressions reveal that his mind is spinning with, “Okay, what did coach say I was supposed to do here?” I sure would enjoy watching him just PLAY without having to think so much (the blame for which he and the coaching staff should shoulder).

As an aside to the Joe Smith debacle, I’m still not convinced that Papa Glen didn’t narc himself out to avoid paying Joe Smith a jillion dollars over eight years. In hindsight, turning himself in and accepting the penalties would have been a wise financial move!

by PoorDick on Jan 4, 2009 8:56 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is solid

Thank you very much for the work you put into this. Very much appreciated. I especially agree with your conclusion. This team needs a professional GM.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 4, 2009 9:46 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Post...

My only quibble is that it’s always cherry-picking to compare Player X to Player Y. Because the risk is you’re going to trick yourself into ignoring the forest for the trees. For every Gary Payton, there are likely 10 flameouts who started their careers with Payton-type numbers but never enjoyed Payton’s breakout. You need to start by throwing ALL the players (of a certain type you’re examining) thrown in the bucket—the successes, the failures, the in-betweens—to draw any sort of conclusion about a particular player’s chances. (This is why I get nervous when I hear McHale start throwing out names like John Stockton for an example of a slow-starter: he may be missing the forest for the trees.)

For instance, the first player I looked at after reading this was Fred Jones (who has Foye’s identical listed height and weight). Foye’s done better than Jones, but Jones and Chauncey Billups, for instance, had similar numbers their first 3 seasons in the league. And of course their careers (to this point) couldn’t be much less different.

But that’s a VERY minor complaint on my part, as I get that your post by no means is intended to claim Foye the next Glove. I love the larger themes you’re touching on here, overall. Nice stuff.

And welcome to the board! This is a fabulous debut post, if I may say so…

by jianfu on Jan 4, 2009 11:31 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with the general thrust of your post,

i.e. that we should be patient when thinking about Foye. (Disclaimer: I’ve generally been a much bigger fan of Foye than most who post here regularly.) And I agree that the Wolves of the past 3 years haven’t exactly provided the optimal environment in which to learn and improve.

However, and to piggyback on Jianfu’s comment a bit, I wonder why you compare Foye to Payton? The reason I ask is simply that to my mind they are very different players. Payton was a pure point guard, who never played anything but that position, and whose skill set was composed almost exclusively of PG-specific abilities. Foye, in my opinion, is a combo guard, someone who, ideally, will be able to hurt teams from both the 1 and the 2, and whose skill set reflects that. In my view the best comparisons for Foye are to Billups and Wade; the best-case scenario for him, I think, will be if his game eventually falls somewhere between those 2 guys.

Don’t get me wrong, I still like the post, in part because it highlights how much things can change after a player’s first few years. I think the lesson to be learned from the numbers you provide is one of patience.

by plinytheelder on Jan 5, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why Payton?

Pliny,

Why did use the example of Gary Payton in reference to the beginning of Foye’s career? To be honest, Payton was the first player that came to mind when I was thinking of guards of similar stature and athletic ability that had excellent careers but were slow to realize statistical success. It could have been anyone really; Billups, Nash, or even Joe Dumars (who in retrospect, is the example I should have used to illustrate my point.) The career of a combo guard like Joe Dumars is, I think, what the Wolves’ front office should be hoping for from Foye. Out of the gate Dumars was a much better shooter than Foye; and was blessed with both more playing time and better luck avoiding any substantial injuries.

In defensive the Payton comparison, coming out of Oregon State, Payton wasn’t necessarily as pure of a point guard as one might think. While he had impressive assist numbers throughout his four year career with the Beavers, by his senior year scouts had begun to wonder if he was more of a scoring point guard that was more interested in finding his own shot than setting the table for his teammates. You’re right, however, in your assessment that upon enterning the league Payton was blessed with both a different pedigree as a point guard and set of skills than possessed by Randy Foye.

 I’m at work today suffering through the NyQuiled haze of a high fever, so please allow me a moment to digress on something tangentially related to your comment. The classification system that defines players by 1,2,3,4, and 5 , like the VHS tape (side note, as of last month they don’t even make ‘em anymore!) is a relic of the past. The style of play exhibited by the current edition of the best point guard on the planet, Chris Paul, is a far cry from John Stockton. Players like Wade, KG, and Lebron (not to mention their tweener antecedants: Barkley, Sabonis, and Dumars) were harbingers of the era of the tweener. We’re witnessing the dawn of a glorious new era of NBA ambiguity that promises to sweep away a dated nomiclature, that has continually served to suppress the creativity of NBA coaches and general managers, into the dustbin of basketball history. Celebrate the nebulous! I want to watch a team that’s made it a habit out of using a 7 foot tall three point shooting shot blocker to bring the ball up the court and initiate its offense; I want to support a team that has a starting rotation comprised of four guards and a time displaced just out of the Navy David Robinson; or a team whose roster is entirely comprised of clones composited from the DNA of the game’s most versatile players: Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, AK47, The Big O, and KG. Damn, even for a fever induced tangent that was awfully long. During the working hours, it might be best if I refrain from imbibing the green deviled sniffling,sneezing,coughing,achine,stuffyhead,fever,so you can rest medicine.

Giddyup!

by Brokenteeth on Jan 5, 2009 3:05 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wrong Bottle...

You may have planned on drinking NyQuil…but it sounds like you chugged Kevin McHale’s Kool-Aid instead…

HIYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

by Blakeley on Jan 5, 2009 3:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice point about Dumars, I hadn’t thought of him, I think the comparison is apt. If Foye turned into Dumars I’d be plenty happy.

Re: the classification system: I agree for the most part, in fact that’s sort of what I’ve been trying to argue about Foye all year – his skill set overlaps the 1 and the 2, and any coach who wants to use him effectively needs to take this into consideration. (If anything Foye is the perfect player to illustrate this point, since if we rigidly insist on the numerical system he was a 4 at Villanova – with Lowry a 1, Nardi a 2, and Ray a 3.) Still, I don’t think position numbers or names will be a “relic of the past” anytime soon, or that they need to be. After all, to use examples that are close at hand, Love is basically a 4 – a very versatile one, but still a 4. Jefferson is a 4-5. Telfair’s a 1. Guys like Kirilenko can play 4 positions but they’re extremely rare. In short, I too like versatile players, but I don’t see why this negates position numbers or names – to me, the key is to not let the numbers/names become so rigid that you can’t think outside of them.

Thanks for the note about vhs tapes too, I better stock up on them for my 80s TV! ;)

by plinytheelder on Jan 5, 2009 5:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yet....

…the Sonics were always known as an offensive team and had significantly better Ortgs than Drtgs during his time at point.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/

I know his nickname was the glove but he played in an era that allowed hand checking and he was a better offensive point than a defensive one. He ranks 12th in career NBA offensive win shares (96.9) compared to 30th on defense (49). During the 7 year Sonic run starting in 91, the Sonics had an average OE ranking of 4.285 compared to 7.285 on defense. He was most well known for running one of the most exciting offenses of the 90s. He got a lot of steals and was a plus defender but let’s not forget that he was a better offensive player. Let’s not get too ahead of ourselves with claims of cherry picking.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 5, 2009 4:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed on the criticism of the "cherry picking" claim...

And regarding the statement “Foye doesn’t even know the meaning of defense,” as always, I’d like to see some examples. I for one have been quite impressed with his defence this year. To take only one game as an example: in the first quarter of the GS game, he took Belinelli completely out of the game. On consecutive defensive possessions, he forced B. in to a turnover, and then knocked the ball out of bounds on B.‘s dribble. One could respond “Belinelli who,” but this is a guy who had been avg.ing 15 points a game for the several games leading up to MN, and is already one of the best pure shooters in the league (a debatable claim obviously, but I’ll debate it). Then in the second half, Foye did an equally fine job on Crawford, once blocking that righty floater Crawford is so good at and that he’d already scored on a couple of times. If anything I think Foye is getting a certain swagger back on D that has been slower to come on O, though his offence has been improving lately too.

by plinytheelder on Jan 5, 2009 5:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look, I mean no disrespect; all I’m saying is this: it seems to me that the minimum requirement on a site like this should be the ability to back up one’s points. You said that Foye “doesn’t even know the meaning” of defence. I disagreed, and brought up several examples from the GS game (fresh in my mind since it’s the last game I saw) to illustrate why I disagreed. It’s fine with me if you hold to your argument…but again, shouldn’t the minimum requirement be that you bring up an example or 2 rather than just repeating “Foye sucks” ad nauseam? I don’t mind if you disagree with me, it’s just far more interesting if I know why.

To clarify: I’m not saying that Foye is Michael Cooper. What I’m saying is that, overall, I’ve been impressed with his defence this year. This isn’t to say it has been perfect. If anything, I find that he’s a bit error-prone on D (like on O). For example, I’ve mentioned this before, but at the end of one of the Denver games, I think it was the first one, he went under a screen while guarding Billups at the 3-pt line. I’m sure Wittman told him to do anything but that, but he did it anyways, and Billups predictably drained the 3. This was a shame because prior to that he had played Billups extremely well, and extremely intelligently, not going for fakes, not trying to do too much (i.e. forcing him into low-percentage shots rather than going for blocks or steals), etc.

Another example of “poor” D I can remember is from the NJ game, the ugly blowout. He had somehow gotten switched on to Carter, and Carter absolutely undressed him – faked left and went right, and left Foye grasping at air. One could say this was bad defence…or one could say that this is something Carter does to everyone from time to time.

Anyways all I’m saying is this: I’ve been pleasantly surprised by what I’ve considered to be fine defence for most of the year from Foye. I may very well be wrong, and if I am I’ll gladly admit it. But if you think so, please say a few words about why – give me something to go on, a play or 2, a recurring pattern, etc. Thanks.

by plinytheelder on Jan 6, 2009 1:06 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“Michael Cooper” made me think about that 80’s (or was it 90’s) show. It’s Michael Cooooooooper

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Jan 6, 2009 6:25 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Back up opinions with real life situations!!

Why, that just isn’t in the realm of reality for a basher or a rose-colored glasses person either. Opinions are strong personal feelings, why back then with reality?!? ;)

Of course, those who just repeat what they’ve heard elsewhere are hard to have a discussion with also. That’s why I like coming here, usually there is very good discussion, whether I support or disagree with the opinions. Pliny, you and I agree, Foye’s defense is better, but we are not expecting Gary Payton or John Stockton are we?

I am constantly amazed by my own lack of knowledge.

by frankenhoops on Jan 6, 2009 3:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was also

an excellent post up guard. He scored a lot of his points posting up point guards on the block. Something I have rarely seen from Foye. Sonics were more of an offense team, but they were really strong defensively with Payton and Nate McMillian. Kemp was really the only decent defender they had in the frontcourt. Guys like Sam Perkins, Detlef Schrempf, Frank Brickowski and a young Ervin Johnson didn’t do a whole lot on defense. Even in the earlier years, besides Kemp they didnt have much, I remember an old Bill Cartwright, Michael Cage and the great Steve Scheffler, an earlier version of Mark Madsen.

by bheidge on Jan 5, 2009 8:00 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would love

to see Foye post up guards of similar size. He is somewhat of a load for a guard…

by wolfen on Jan 9, 2009 9:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some really good points in here.

I’m not sure I agree that Foye and Payton’s numbers aren’t really that different.
“The biggest exceptions being in the categories of assists and steals” .. well, aren’t assists and steals the most telling numbers for point guards?

That said, I do agree with your possible explanations. Everything about Foye in college suggested his defense was ok and even tough he’ll never be a 7apg type of guy, he should be able to get 5 once the percentage starts to go up.

In no way I think Foye is a Payton but if I understand it correct, neither do you. So yes, I do agree we need to hold off on judging him, especially with the injury. You have to start all over after something like that.

Also, good points by Jainfu above. Agree with the bucket thing and agree with the debut post thing.

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Jan 6, 2009 6:25 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cherry picking? Maybe, but you've got to admit it was a good week for this post?

Evin still, the moratorium on the judgement rush stands. 26 point halves don’t make Foye a reverse tron version of kevin johnson from NBA live 94 playing against the computer on rookie setting. Just sayin’. However, if he keeps this up, he’ll be one hell of a tradeable asset; even before that five year mark.
-Bryce

by Brokenteeth on Jan 7, 2009 9:09 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmmm

haven’t I seen this comment somewhere before? ;)

by plinytheelder on Jan 7, 2009 9:44 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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