Oklahoma Karma

by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 7:29 AM CST Comment 30 comments

Wow. First of all, I am an Okie by marriage and I have family in Wewoka, Shawnee, Edmund, and Piedmont. I like Oklahoma and I think OKC and Tulsa are underrated cities to live in, especially by northerners who have never been there.

That being said, by taking the team from Seattle, basketball fans of Oklahoma have angered the basketball gods and are now visited with a product so horrible and unwatchable that it is unworthy of a game wrap of its own.

Actually, that's only half true. Last night's game was not available on NBA Broadband and was not streamed elsewhere on the internets. Thankfully, the game was available locally (for a change) on KTOE and I listened to Al Horton and Kevin Lynch make their way through a blowout victory with stories about hot dogs and ref camps. In other words, you should head on over to Britt's place for a recap from someone who actually watched the game.

I will say this: this year's radio team is really coming around and Rashad McCants entered yesterday's blowout with ~~waste of NBA roster space~~ human victory cigar Mark Madsen. When was the last time Wolves fans have enjoyed a human victory cigar?

As was noted in the game thread comment section, perhaps Shaddy needs a mental health assessment. I don't think the poetry therapy is cutting it.

Well folks, what did you think about last night's game? Is there much to say about a blowout against a dog of a team that didn't try a lick? Is Russell Westbrook the best rookie guard in the league?

What say you?

PS: As an additional way to spend your time, you could head on over to the Wolves' site and check out this Jonah Ballow interview with Starbury. Interesting stuff.

UPDATE: It should be mentioned that the Wolves' current 4 game win streak is their 1st 4 game win streak since January 7th, 2007, when the team was coached by Dwane Casey. This is especially notable because Casey was fired soon after this win streak because he was too "inconsistent". (I know there is a McHale quote out there about "winning 4 and then losing 4"; I wish I could find it.) It will be especially interesting if McHale exactly matches Casey's "inconsistent" pre-firing record. At this point in the game, I think such a record would be considered a success for OBZs. In a weird way, I think McHale is paying back the basketball gods for his poor treatment of Casey. The Disaster in Dallas/Casey's Revenge may have been a large chunk of the ying that the Wolves needed to pay in order to make up for their yang.

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The short version of last night’s game was that Randy Foye was unstoppable. Once he got it going, his treys were literally not touching the net. Well—until his “heat check” attempt that caught glass. But still, he carried the load. Jefferson and Gomes weren’t bad, either. Everyone else did their part—Bassy ran the point the way he has been and Love crashed the boards. A good ass-whoopin’ against a team that deserved one. Durant was awful. His numbers show that last night was not the norm—but still, he doesn’t get very good shots up. They need a post presence or something to get better balance. I’d much-rather lose games with Jefferson owning the block than with Durant chucking from all over.

Westbrook sure is fast, but he’s the third best rookie guard. To be fair, I’ve only seen him play two games, this year. I’ve seen Rose play enough to know that he’s the man from the ‘08 Class and that won’t change, barring major injury. Mayo-Westbrook is a more interesting debate, since Russ has the clear edge in athleticism and Mayo has the equally clear edge in basketball skills. I’d rather have Mayo, but it’s not a total sure-thing that he’ll have the better career. Either one would be nice to have.

by Andy G on Jan 8, 2009 8:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hollinger made a very interesting point...

…in his artile about Mayo, Rose, and Westbrook. These guys are all rookies so there is obvious room for improvement but how they improve is the big question. I know people expect big improvement out of Mayo but with the way he has been shooting from 3 and from long-range 2, I don’t think people have an appreciation of just how hot he started out as and how hard it will be for him to maintain the numbers he (briefly) had. For a while there he was literally one of the top 2 or 3 jump shooters in the league. Westbrook interests me far more than Mayo. I didn’t see what the fuss was about at UCLA but you are really starting to see how his athleticism and size can change games on this level. Westbrook doesn’t get blocked by Foye if he makes that late-game move like Mayo. He finishes that thing hard at the rim.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think all three will improve

but Westbrook, perhaps, will improve the most. Part of that is because he’s the most raw. Rose will probably improve the second-most. I am unbelievably high on Rose—I would’ve traded Al Jefferson for him on draft night (at a time when not many would have done so, and Chicago would’ve listened, I’m sure). I think he’ll be closer to Michael Jordan than to Chris Paul or Deron Williams, by the time he’s through. There just aren’t many players that come along with that type of explosiveness and hanging-ability around the rim. The only ones that I’ve seen are Jordan, Bryant, and Wade. LeBron is in a different category since he’s big-enough to not need to hang. Once he’s deep in the paint, it’s getting flushed. Rose’s rookie performance holds up pretty well against those guys, given their respective ages, experience levels, teammates, etc.

Mayo is just much-better than I thought he was, already. He’ll always lack top-flight explosiveness, but that’s why I compare him to Sam Cassell and Brandon Roy and not to Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade. He’ll get better in each of the next five or so seasons. Given where he’s already at, that puts him at a pretty high-level. Remember, when I brag up Mayo, it’s often in the context of “Mayo vs Love—which is a better fit for the Wolves?”—and not just me thinking Mayo is ridiculously good. He has limitations.

by Andy G on Jan 8, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Mayo...

…will improve with his playmaking if Memphis surrounds him with better parts. I’m not so sure he’ll end up co-exisitng with Gay. Gay is a weird player. He doesn’t seem to have the handle to play the role they have him playing out on the perimeter. I could see him getting locked into a situation there where he’s literally the only good player on the team. However, if he’s counted on to be the a-1 scoring option + the main playmaker, I don’t think it will end well because I think he’s better suited to play the part of a Ben Gordon or, as you nicely mention, Sam Cassell. I think Cassell would be a good player to model so that he could develop his midrange game in the hopes of drawing more fouls on post ups as I don’t think he’ll ever be the type of player to finish in the lane/around the rim and draw a ton of fouls. Westbrook and Rose have that extra gear to be far more complete players and I think both are actually in better situations to develop their talent. As much as OKC sucks, Westbrook will always have to defer to Durrant and that should foster his point skills. Mayo is in a no-man’s land in Memphis. I don’t think people appreciate just how bad that team is and how much they over performed early in December. Rose is just a special player and I think he’ll be more D-Wade than anything else. Good call on that one.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Rose, too

Big, quick, seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and when you watch those Bulls games, you can tell there are three good, three bad, and five mediocre players on the court at any one time. And then Rose is the one who really stands out.

That idea of trading Scowlin’ Al for Rose on draft night is interesting. Both teams have duplication at their “star” positions, and might have thought about it on draft night. But now, each is too good and valuable to his respective team for the same deal to be made. But a package that contained, say, Hinrich for Love?

by PoorDick on Jan 8, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to say that, having seen him a grand total of once in college and once in the nba, I really like Mayo’s game. More than I thought I would. S/P made the good point yesterday that one of Mayo’s best attributes is that fact that he doesn’t play out of control, which is saying a ton for a 20-yr-old rookie.

And it got me thinking…I wonder if we’re not seeing a return of the slightly unathletic superstar guard or perimeter player in the nba. I really like Andy G’s comparison between Mayo and Roy above. On the surface, these guys have very little in common – very different skill sets. But what they do seem to have in common is an uncanny ability to do incredible things while not seeming to move very quickly. It’s like they see the game before it is unfolding, a couple of plays before everyone else on the court. (Nash would be another such guy.)

To speak too quickly, perhaps, it’s like the return of Bird/Magic – neither of those guys were very athletic, but they were somehow able to control the pace/rhythm of the game to the point that it became about other things than pure athleticism (whatever that means). As much as I love Jordan, it’s as though once he came along everyone thought “we have to get super-athletes to compete.”

I could be totally wrong, and I think it’s way too early to make any sort of overarching pronouncement on Mayo’s game, but if this “slowing-down” of the game is indeed what’s happening, I think it’s great. No, I should rephrase that: what I mean is that it’s nice to see the game somehow moving back to a place where it can really welcome and value this kind of skill set. If there are any soccer fans here, to me these guys – well, Roy at least, not quite sure yet about Mayo – are the equivalent of Juan Román Riquelme, the great Argentine midfielder who seems to be, and indeed is, moving very slowly, yet somehow absolutely controls the game, and about whom the Argentine national team coach once said “I don’t see him as a slow player. It’s the ball that needs to move quickly, not the players.”

by plinytheelder on Jan 8, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have the exact opposite reaction on Mayo

I’m almost positive this is as good as he gets. The time he spends on the court, the amount he handles the ball, his low turnover rate, everything seems to say that he’s close to as good as he’s going to be. Now, if I’m wrong and he has the development rate of an average NBA player (say, Randy Foye or Sebastian Telfair), than he’ll be up in the Jordan/Russell/Johnson/Robertson discussion of all-time great guards; quite frankly, I think it’s an either or situation, and I know which one I support.

by McCleak on Jan 8, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really think...

…Mayo will be hard pressed to increase what he’s currently doing. He was playing like a 10 year vet at the start of the year and he was hitting a hefty chunk of his shots. I can’t tell you how crazy his 2 point shooting was for a jump shooter. Rookie stats obviously can’t tell you what type of player he’ll be down the road but they can suggest how he will play; i.e. percentage of jumpers to 3s, asst rate…i.e. it’s pretty hard to change the type of player you are and he has a pretty specific set of skills that are very well refined for a rookie.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

and saying Paul and Williams are on the same level is just wrong.

by McCleak on Jan 8, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did I say that?

I didn’t mean to. If forced to choose, I’d take Williams over Paul.

by Andy G on Jan 8, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bill Simmons

is just going to pretend you didn’t write that.

by PoorDick on Jan 8, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha

Well, Simmons and I don’t quite see the same things when we watch basketball. For instance, I don’t think Kevin Durant will be a Top-20 of all time player.

As for Paul-Williams, they are both phenomenal. If Minnesota had either, we’d be a playoff team. I just like my star guard to be a great crunchtime shooter. Williams is that. Paul is not.

by Andy G on Jan 8, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So, so wrong ;)

Seriously, though if you check out what they do at crunch time, Williams doesn’t hold a candle to Paul. Check the clutch stats info at 82games.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA1.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NOH1.HTM

And as much as I loathe to quote Simmons, I think he nailed it dead on when he said (paraphrased) “Williams looks like one of the best point guards of his generation. Paul looks like one of the best point guards of all time.”

by McCleak on Jan 8, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love the Paul/Williams debate...

…I come down with Andy G and my reasoning is more along the lines of I don’t believe Paul will ever take a team to the Finals in the post season. I think Paul is the superior offensive player but I actually like Williams more as a facilitator and team player. I think Williams’ Jazz is now 9-2 against Paul’s Hornets. I like to look back at the Isiah Thomas v. John Stockton debate as a reference point for these two guys. I don’t doubt that Paul could whip D-Will 1-on-1, nor do I doubt that he’s the better individual player. However, if I have to pick my very own Dream Team, I’m going with Stockton and Williams over Thomas and Paul.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and yes...

..I know Thomas won…I just thought Thomas/Stockton is a good analogy on a few fronts.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just like Williams style, and I think the two are both great enough players to make it arguable. Even if Paul has better stats and whatnot, I feel like Williams is the guy I’d rather have on my side. But, I’m never going to call it a no-brainer, at least until one of them convinces me otherwise.

by Andy G on Jan 8, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's my thing about D-Will and CP3

I think Williams would actually beat Paul in one on one. For whatever reason, Williams seems to be able to beat Paul in a one on one matchups, as their head to head stats prove. But you can’t seriously think that a guy that puts up the assist numbers Paul does, with the assists he makes, the +/- both regular (where he has a +32.8 which lead the NBA) and adjusted 2-year (where he also leads). Now, as to facilitating and team play, here’s my counter: IT’S CHRIS PAUL. You know how everyone is annoyed with Mike Miller for not going for his own more often? That would be Paul if he acted as facilitator more often (though his on/off numbers imply MORE movement and teamwork when he’s out there) than he does. Think of it like LeBron James: do you really want him assisting more often? Would it really help? There’s a certain point where a player (***coughcoughKobeBryantcoughcough***) no matter how selfish, is too talented for it to matter. And even though I’m comparing a forward and a point guard, I think it still holds true for Paul. I’ll go further and say that when you’re talking about the best players in the world, the list is LeBron and Paul at 1a and 1b, with everyone else (Bryant, Wade, Howard, Duncan, Nowitzki, Roy, Parker, Madsen) in the distance.

I’m going to stop now, before I have to officially change my name to Steven A. Smith.

by McCleak on Jan 8, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok Steven A ;)

And I think that’s part of the rub with Paul. He’s a supremely talented shooting guard wrapped in a supremely talented point guard body. I don’t know what that balance is for him. I know where it is with Williams and I think he does too. He’s an A1 scorer with point skills. I’m not arguing that I think Williams is better. I’d just want Williams as the point on my team.

PS: nice job working in Madsen ;)

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the radio

Las night was my first opportunity to listen to a game on the radio(I could barely get KTOE and I live 25 miles away from Kato). I didnt know that Kevin Lynch moved over from Gopher basketball to Twolves. I listened to a lot of Gopher basketball over the years, and I swear he had done that no ketchup on the hot dog bit 4 or 5 times.

by DedicatedFollowerOfFashion on Jan 8, 2009 9:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

They do the no ketchup bit..

…on every dog night. I wonder when Horton will finally snap at Lynch and tell him that he’s already heard that damn bit.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mad Dog

SnP – I don’t know why you hate the Mad Dog so much. I realize he is an awful player, but it sure is fun to see him out there trying to score a point…and the fans LOVE him (myself included). He’s always been a fan favorite, but our present day crappyness has pushed him to a new level of enthusiasm. I actually haven’t seen this type of enthusiasm for a Wolves player since Reggie Slater or Hollywood Robinson. We also shouldn’t discount how helpful he must be in practice, especially on a losing team like the Wolves.

by Blakeley on Jan 8, 2009 9:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I can't stand him for 2 reasons:

1- He was the lead actor in the most embarassing moment in team history, the last game of the 05/06 season.
2- He’s a cartoon of every silly white baller stereotype in the world.

I can kind of chuckle about point 2 but #1 is the unforgivable sin to me.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus, he makes us think

that we had a chance to play in the NBA. Which is added to the pile of regrets that we accumulate over a lifetime.

by PoorDick on Jan 8, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

by plinytheelder on Jan 8, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

rookie PG

This is a very knee jerk website, Westbrook was the best rookie guard in december- which is why he was rookie of the month. He is in ROY contention but he is still the 3rd best rookie guard. This is a testament to the strength of the 2008 rookie class. Rose/Westbrook/Augustine and even Chalmers are all better than the highest drafted PG sophmores Conley and Acie Law.

Another question is what happened to Foye?Is it a sudden increase in confidence or something more than that. I havent been following the team very long- does he normally go on straks like this?

by WhaHuh on Jan 8, 2009 9:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

*streaks like this?

by WhaHuh on Jan 8, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What happened to Foye

I know Foye has been playing great and part of this is the move to the 2 guard. But, as someone has been very critical of Gomes and Telfair’s play over the beginning of the year, I think a lot of his success has been because of those two. Players cannot be out there just taking up space. They have to contribute something. It has been Al Jefferson and only Al Jefferson from opening night until the end of the year. Everyone was waiting for someone to step up and take a little scoring load off of him and Randy Foye seemed like the one who could do that with a little Miller thrown in also.

But players like McCants and Gomes and also Miller have given little to make opposing teams care about other than triple teaming Jefferson when he has the ball and keeping an eye out for where Foye is. Sitting McCants and playing Miller off the bench while Gomes has emerged as another scorer out there finally has opened it up for Foye to score a little too. Telfair competence at the point shouldn’t be underestimated either, but I agree with Pliney’s comments yesterday too. Foye still should get some minutes at the PG as his game develops and he builds more confidence. I really liked Britt’s thread today that gave his Q&A with Foye and playing under McHale vs. Wittman. I really think Foyes development could follow in line with Billups. When Billups came to the Wolves most NBA minds had given up on him as a legit PG in the NBA also. He gained confidence with the WOlves playing backup to Brandon and then taking over when he was hurt. However, when negotiating with the Wolves and asking Flip to name Billups as the starting PG over Brandon, Flip couldn’t do it because he knew what a starting PG looked like and healthy Brandon fit the profile over Billups. Now, Chauncey is consdiered a true PG.

I guess what I’m saying is that if you put more players around Foye and guys like Gomes are actually offensive threats out there, he’ll do all right at either the 1 or 2 as he gains more experience. I’m glad he is playing the SG right now and believe that is the best option for the team to win with Telfair playing as well as he is. But, Foye is undersized at the SG and he may eventually be better suited at the 1 such as Chauncey is now.

by Andy B on Jan 8, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The guy westbrook reminds me of

Is Andre Miller, with WAY better athleticism — he’s a good defender already, pretty big for a pg, and likes to shoot that barely-jumping 17-footer or explode to the rim. I’d still take Rose over him, but I think he’s the 2nd best rookie guard prospect right now, although Mayo is clearly ahead of him in terms of offensive game (mainly shooting).

Which of course brings up the interesting question: what if we had drafted Westbrook? We’ll see if Foye keeps it up, but would have liked a westbrook-Foye backcourt looks way more interesting to me than Foye-Mayo. And it reinforces the idea that if Foye is the combo-guard of the future for this team (I’d like to see him keep this up for a month, not just a handful of games against bad teams), then they need to find a PG with some size and some defensive potential. Is Jennings that guy? I haven’t seen him. Let the search begin.

by Sterno on Jan 8, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jrue Holiday...

….I remember reading somewhere that Ben Howland thinks Holiday is Westbrook’s equal as an athlete. I think with the way RW is performing this year, Holiday deserves special attention if he comes out.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 8, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jrue is an awesome name

That signals a lot of potential right there.

But it brings up an interesting point (pun intended). The wolves may (MAY) be assembling some talented players at some important positions, but they haven’t filled the roles that often separate the great teams and the rest: the quality PG, the defensive-minded big man, and the slasher/assassin on the wing. None are easy to find — there aren’t that many Pauls, Chandlers, and Melos out there. But somehow, if we’re going to be credible in the western conference, we’re going to need to use our cap space to get at least 2 of these 3 things if we are going to be considered legit contenders.

And no disrespect intended to Bassy — he’s a real positive for this team (he’s been the PG for 3 of these last 4 wins), he’s and I’d rather him get minutes than Ollie. That being said, he’s making backup PG money because he’s a backup PG/change of pace.

by Sterno on Jan 8, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs