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Bad Ball

Minnesota Timberwolves' Corey Brewer scores as Cleveland Cavaliers' Mo Williams looks on in the second half of an NBA basketball game Friday, Oct. 30, 2009 in Minneapolis. Brewer scored 11 points in the Timberwolves' 104-87 loss to the Cavaliers. (AP Photo/Jim Mone)

More photos » Jim Mone - AP

3 months ago: Minnesota Timberwolves' Corey Brewer scores as Cleveland Cavaliers' Mo Williams looks on in the second half of an NBA basketball game Friday, Oct. 30, 2009 in Minneapolis. Brewer scored 11 points in the Timberwolves' 104-87 loss to the Cavaliers. (AP Photo/Jim Mone)

Near the bottom of last night's comments a few important things were pointed out:

Anthony Parker

has 6 points from 2/7 shooting and was +23

That statistic has very definite limitations.

Judd: "...I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and I realise that pressure points are no laughing matter.".

by Auswolf on Oct 31, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...

Hey, everyone:

This was a game against one of the top 3 teams in the league, 0-2 start be damned.

I think we would all benefit by making literally no — not a single one - definitive statements about the team after this game. Of course Flynn was going to have a terrible +/. Of course we were going to look bad. Do not worry about it. Hold your judgements for when we get blown out by a bad team.

Thank you, and good night.

by LoveTo on Oct 31, 2009 12:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

 

There are going to be a few things that we all need to keep in mind when discussing the Wolves this season:

  1. They are going to put up some crooked stat lines.
  2. +/- is going to be even more flawed than usual as a stand-alone stat used to gauge individual game performances.  The Wolves are going to take it in the chin this year on more than a few occasions.  That doesn't mean that individual players won't play well within any given blow-out (Brewer played decent during last night's atrocity).  It also doesn't account for the roles that certain players inhabit (Ramon Sessions as a backup point; Sasha Pavlovic as a defender off the bench) or the fact that the team's two best players are either inactive or playing at 70%. +/- is a nice part of the equation but it will need to be downgraded this year as the Wolves, as a whole, are going to be going through some bumps and bruises beyond what was expected last year when they had the ability to trot out a relatively respectable and experienced lineup of Sebastian Telfair, Randy Foye, Mike Miller, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson.  Also, we're really, really, really early in the season and until we see how some of these lineups look over the course of 10-15 games, +/- is going to have some pretty hefty limitations and should be used in conjunction with other observations/stats.  For instance, Jonny Flynn ended last night's game with a -23 in 25 minutes.  This is a bad, bad number but it could mean that he was on the court with the team's most ineffective front court (Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, and Damien Wilkins) and LeBron James for a long period of time.  It could also mean that Jonny Flynn is not an NBA point at the moment and while he can score until the cows come home, he has some fairly big issues facilitating the offense.  Or, it could be a combo of the two factors.  Either way, simply citing +/- isn't going to cut it with this team right now.
  3. Al Jefferson is not anywhere near 100%.  Yes, it looks like he has no business being in the new offense and he is the last person on earth you want directing traffic out of the high post, but a serious injury is still a serious injury and the Jefferson Discount should be taken into account when discussing his overall worth to the squad.

I'm sure we can come up with a few more gentle nudges for game discussion but these are the ones that have quickly risen to the top in the first two games of the season. 

Star-divide

Enough about the Wolves for a second.  The most notable thing about last night's game, for me, was the composition of the Cavs.  This team is not as good as it was last year and it is not a championship contender.  The most glaring issue that they have is that even with LeBron on the squad, they are the most unathletic non-Wolves starting-5 team I have seen in a long, long time.  Shaq and Ilgauskus may be the slowest and most earth-bound frontcourt duo in the league and their non-LeBron wings stand around the three point line and do not crash the boards.  This team will be taken apart by any other squad with two players who are both athletic and above 6'10"  Witness Toronto, Orlando, and Boston.  Witness the change in the game when Ryan Hollins entered the contest.  Hell, even Nathan Jawai was able to change the pace of the game for a few moments. This team will always have a decent shot at winning any single game because of LeBron James (who I firmly believe is the best player in the world).  However, any team that is thinking about giving 80-90 minutes of court time to a Shaq, Varejao, Ilgauskus front court trio doesn't have the top end to compete with the Bostons, Orlandos, and yes, even the Torontos of the world over a 7 game series.  They don't need a Steven Jackson; they needed a Rasheed Wallace or a Marcin GortatMike Brown will eventually take the heat for what happens to this squad but it's the damn Dukie who did the damage.

Let's wrap this up with a few bullet points:

  • There is no reason on God's green earth to front or double Shaq at this point in his career.  This didn't stop Al Jefferson from trying the former and Damien Wilkins from attempting the latter (off of LeBron James, no less).  Make them go over the top and if they beat you with Boobie Gibson, so be it.
  • The FSN game was apparently brought to us by Bret Michael's November appearances at Grand Casino.  
  • The Wolves' starting front court (Jefferson, Gomes, and Wilkins) went 0-for-their-starting-stint.  The first front court bucket was made by Ryan Hollins.  Sasha Pavlovic was the next front court player to score followed by the White Hole himself, Oleksiy Pecherov.  The starting FC ended the game on 9-28 shooting.  This comes on the heels of their 9-30 effort against the Nets
  • My first Wolves prediction of the year: Ryan Gomes plays himself out of his team option at the end of the year.  David Kahn isn't going to pick up a $4.2 million tab on a guy who can't really play the 3 or the 4 in a year where guys like Josh Childress, Hakim Warrick, and Travis Outlaw could be on the open market.
  • Speaking of options, today is the day for the White Hole and Corey Brewer.  Will their options be picked up by the team?  I think Brewer gets his but my money is against Pech.  Putting the last two points together, ESPN currently has the Wolves with between $8.9 and $12.5 million in 2010 cap space. This is with a cap projected between $50 and $53.6 million.  According to the definitive Hoopus cap page, the Wolves are on the books for roughly $37.5 in pre draft pick 2010 salaries.  If they decline the options on Pech and Gomes, they can reduce that number by roughly $6.5 million.  In other words, by not picking up Pech and Gomes, the Wolves can be sitting at $31 mil at the start of the 2010 free agent without taking into consideration slotted 1st round draft picks. Could the Wolves be in the Mark Stein ballpark after it's all said and done with?  Yes, but they also could be at the top of the heap with about $15-18 mil to spend even after all the draft picks are signed.  We think Stein and ESPN underestimate the amount that the Wolves could have to spend at the end of the year, especially if Pech and Gomes are voted off the island.
  • How sad is it that we're already talking offseason cap space and draft picks?  Yes, it will be a long year.  An entertaining one at times, but a long one nonetheless. 
  • There was a play in the 2nd half that really illustrated just how not-there Big Al is at times.  The Wolves were about to enter the bonus when the Cavs got a fast break opportunity.  Instead of making his way down the court to contest the shot, Al fouled the Cavs player at half court, conceding the foul and the trip to the line.  If you are willing to give the foul and the trip to the line because of the bonus, why not contest the shot? 
  • To say one good thing about Al, he did blow by Shaq on one play like Shaq was a 37 year old 360 lbs oaf....oh wait.
  • Corey Brewer played solid defense on LeBron when he wasn't spending time on the dangerous Anthony Parker.  I know that LeBron can get his against anyone in the league but it would have been nice to see Brewer get a bigger crack against the guy.

Well, that about does it for the game wrap.  What did you notice about the game?  What guidelines will you have for critiquing the team's performances?  Do you think Pecherov's option gets picked up?  What about Gomes at the end of the year? 

Until later.

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Comments

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One Issue

The Comparsion of Varejao with Shaq and Big Z. Here’s Hollinger’s scouting report of Varejao:

“Varejao’s flopping gets everyone talking, but the rest of his defense is the real story. He’s an elite defender who deserved All-Defense honors, as he can guard 4s on the perimeter or defend the post with equal effectiveness. He defends pick-and-rolls, he gets back quickly in transition, and he hustles like crazy to get loose balls. He’s not a leaper, but at 6-foot-11 and 260 pounds he possesses unusual mobility for a player of his size.

Offensively, Varejao can handle the ball fairly well for his size but is a poor shooter, with a line-drive, below-the-chin, elbow-out release that will never appear in a textbook. He runs the floor well and scraps his way to a lot of second shots, plus he’s great at moving without the ball, particularly as the roll man in screen-and-rolls. For him to score on his own is quite difficult, however, and opponents routinely dare him to fire away from the perimeter. Too often, he takes the bait. "

by Jose Cordoba on Oct 31, 2009 9:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So...

….Varejao is just as ineffective on one end of the court as Shaq and Big Z are on the other? Their front line is junk compared to Orlando, Boston, and Toronto and it will be the death of them.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 31, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bad news for the Wolves

is that Shaq / Ilguaskas / Varejao are miles more competitive than Jefferson / Love / Hollins will ever be.

Just one NBA fan’s opinion. But then, I always thought Wally Szcerbiak sucked too.

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rebuttal

Disagree, unless you happen to think that passing, ball-movement, and setting screens aren’t valuable Offensive Skills. Aren’t these the things you champion about Kevin Love and Joakim Noah? He had a TS% of 56.5 last season. He’ll never lead a team in scoring but at least has decent complimentary skills on this end of the court.

by Jose Cordoba on Oct 31, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes..

…but you’re still talking about a team that takes the best player on the planet to make it all work. I think Varejao would be an upgrade over Jefferson if you had wing players (or one very, very good wing player) to make it work. He is a very, very nice player and I don’t want to make it seem like I don’t like the guy but they don’t really have a solid 2-way big right now like Bosh, KG, or Wallace and that is going to kill them in the long run.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 31, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he can play off the best player in the planet, but take that away and he’s going to be exposed for his complete lack of ability to create anything. He’s perfect on that team and he’s a useful player, but take away LBJ and things change completely.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Oct 31, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another Point

Why not at least try playing Flynn with Sessions? Unless they believe that Damien is a shutdown Defender.

by Jose Cordoba on Oct 31, 2009 9:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

if two short PGs didn't work at practice

why would Rambis trot them out in a game?

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sessions is 6'3

He’s undersized at the 2- but no smaller than Fourth Quarter Foye. It could be that Flynn or Sessions is clueless to play without the ball. The problem is trying to find ways to get your best players on the floor together. If it doesn’t work at practice keep trying. Ramon Sessions is not a 21 minute a game player. No Way! No How!

Here’s Hollinger on Sessions:
“Better yet, he’s capable of playing the 2 in many situations while one of those players mans the point, which means his presence won’t necessarily preclude Flynn from getting minutes this season”

by Jose Cordoba on Oct 31, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in shoes

only 6’2 in socks. Whichever (and it’s the same argument about Love and Jefferson), he’s almost average height at his natural position and woefully undersized the next position up.

Bottom line — I’ll side with Rambis’ decisions.

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

6’3 in shoes isn’t woefully undersized at the 2, merely undersized. Semantics, I suppose, but he’s big enough to not be completely exposed at that spot for a few minutes a game. There are plenty of teams who run back court pairs with no one over 6’3, and, to use last night’s game as an example, while Anthony Parker might be big, the size difference isn’t going to do much given that all he does is shoot open 3’s.

I’d at least like to see if there’s value to having two playmakers out there together, especially if Flynn is going to be the defacto SG and eschew running the offense. It might not be ideal, but it’s better than more minutes for Pavs/Wilkins. I see little to lose, at least.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Oct 31, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he plays in shoes

so let’s go with 6’3" :)
Williams is 6’1", Gibson is 6’2" and Parker does nothing with his size. I don’t think it is a convincing argument that Flynn and Sessions couldn’t guard any of those guys. I am pretty sure Gibson and Mo were on the court for over 15 minutes. Were the Cavs worried that Mo couldn’t guard Ramon because he was too big? Last night was absolutely the night to give Flynn and Ramon 5 minutes together on Boobie and Mo.

All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer.
Homer

by CaliWolf on Oct 31, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd also add

That no one seems to have a problem with Wayne Ellington playing shooting guard…and he’s 6’4". How much of a difference does that one inch make?

by Blakeley on Oct 31, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

here, here...

…i just watched the rockets take care of the blazers with a 4th quarter lineup that didn’t break 6’7". they need to give it a shot.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 31, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hilarious! Just the other day, there was C-Webb arguing with Sir Charles that the Rockets could be the worst team in the West.

But seriously, does anyone here believe that the Rockets’ small lineup would win a seven game series?

To me, the big picture for the Wolves should be learning defense and the Rambis version of the triangle offense. Build experience and cohesiveness for the future. Experimenting with gimmick lineups in hopes of winning games should be left to desperate coaches.

by levi_mn on Nov 1, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think rambis is going to be..

…a fantastic coach but i was really rooting for someone from the adleman tree because the guy is the most flexible coach in the nba. there is no system, only doing well with what you have. i like that approach. the rockets are going to be a tough out all year long and they are going to develop the hell out of landry, brooks, and ariza while bringing along budinger.

i think it’s less about the small lineup and more about rolling with the punches. that’s not desperate. it’s putting your best players on the court and figuring out how to do well with them and letting them develop.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 1, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ellington is 6'5" in shoes

so that’s two inches when you compare apples. Wayne is on the shorter side of the “prototypical” SG. Size isn’t everything, but it matters.

by levi_mn on Nov 1, 2009 8:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Foye wasn't undersized at SG

he would probably still be here with KG. Playing an undersized Sessions at the 2 creates the same issues as Foye at SG.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reason- Foye isn't here

Is because the Wolves wanted Tyreke Evans to pair with Jonny Flynn- but then we ended up with Ricky. The problem is Sessions based on past track record is our 2nd Best Currently healthy player where as Flynn is our most talented rookie. We need to at least- give it a go instead of giving minutes to Replacement Level players (Gomes, Wilkins).

by Jose Cordoba on Oct 31, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no argument

with your point about playing our best players.

My Foye point is that if he were a couple inches taller, he would be an average to above average shooting guard, thus he would still be here, so would McHale. I really believe if Foye ended his rookie year looking like a legit starting SG, the Wolves would have kept KG and tried to build around him and Foye. It may have worked, at least enough to get to fifty wins.

My belief is undersized or slow wings really get exposed defensively because they usually match up against the best players in the league. Trying to play Sessions at the 2 will look like playing Foye there, might be better than Brewer, but they also need to see what Brewer can or cannot do.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Caveat on that +/- caveat

I’m certain I’ve heard or read Rambis, somewhere, saying he looks at group +/- stats some in defining his rotations. (At the time my first reaction was that the “KG and the Kids” lineup we noticed at the end of 07-08 would have gotten more play…. Which should hint at my memory not being completely faulty about this.)

The Gomes thing is a mild surprise to me. He has a reputation for being such a savvy young Sam Mitchell to be, but his game doesn’t seem to fit at all right now.

by feral on Oct 31, 2009 10:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

group..

….+/- is a good thing. Google “Wayne Winston Roland Beech mavs” and look for the WSJ article about the importance of +/-. The Mavs use it to determine good lineups and I think that’s a good thing that the Wolves should emulate. It’s not a fantastic individual tool but it does give you a relative benchmark to see how well certain guys play with others. Solid point.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 31, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

top 10 groups by player

is kept by Roland Beech’s 82games.com site.

In addition to +/-, I like to look at the W/L by the 5-man unit as well, because one fabulous stretch can skew the overall +/- especially in small sample sizes.

It looks like 82games hasn’t gotten this season off the ground yet, though.

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At your

Googling service, sir.

Will there be anything else?

by PoorDick on Oct 31, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

danke

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 31, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like your +/- take

Group definitely has to be factored in. An individual averaging +1 on a team that averages +3 is probably a worse player than a 2 on a team that averages -4, but this is never mentioned when someone uses +/ to evaluate a player.
Numbers can be effective, but they also lie.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HEY!

I just figured out why some lines get crossed out. It happens when two minus signs are used. I had a minus before the 2 and after the /.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guidelines for critiquing

1) Stay healthy. I know that’s not within any player or coaches’ control, but I believe this team will be poised for a very nice second half of the season if the key guys stay healthy.

2) Effort. This will be a proxy for judging Rambis as well.

3) Flynn’s maturation in lifting the whole unit, not just himself. I’m not saying he’s selfish, I just don’t think he knows how to orchestrate an NBA offense yet. A guy like Ty Lawson does because he had 3 years at NC where he was surrounded by superb talent he had to get involved. I actually think +/- is a stat I will be paying attention to on Flynn because that will be a key indicator of his ability to lift the whole unit. Obviously that needs to be done in context with the fact Sessions is in the game when Flynn is out. I realize that could negatively affect his Net +/-. I just want to see an improving trend line over the season.

4) Corey Brewer’s ability to calibrate the speed at which he plays the game. Last night he went up for an offensive board and actually tried to put it back while on the way down. No dice. He was woefully short. It gets back to SnP’s observation about Brewer’s propensity to find himself in excellent position to score, only to totally throw up all over himself.

I could list more, but those are the things I’m watching the closest early this year. In terms of Big Al, #1 applies. I just want to see him stay healthy. The conditioning and touch will gradually come back.

by Rascal Flatts on Oct 31, 2009 10:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This . . .
in excellent position to score, only to totally throw up all over himself.

 . . . is a perfect description of me at bar time during my college years.

by PoorDick on Oct 31, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah

Poor Dick. Still chuckling (with you, of course).

by uncle rico on Oct 31, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Player Ups/Downs after two games

Best Wolf so far: Flynn. He’s a scoring PG and we need someone who can score. Obviously good in 4th quarter and getting to the line.

Other OK Wolves:
Jefferson — He is only 70%, but he’ll be fine and be best wolf soon.
Brewer — Only slightly improved offensively but our best defender. Pick up the option.
Sessions — Should be backup PG to Flynn, but I like the Flynn/Sessions rotation better than any we’ve had in years.
Hollins — A nice backup center, athletic.
Love — When comes back.

Hot/Cold:
Stewie — He really is the best shooter on the team. And everytime he touches the ball, he’ll try to show why. I’d pick up his option and find a way to get him more shots. Really. He may actually help us stretch the defense.
Ellington — He’s supposed to be the guy to stretch the defense, but he’s shooting 31% so far. Still, he looks like he could be good.
Pavlovic — Doesn’t look aggressive. Can make shots sometimes, but he can’t be part of any long term plan. OK player on a bad team not a good one.
Jawai — Project, but only bulky player.

Bad start:
Gomes — Playing himself out of an extension so far. I liked him last year. It’s early, but what’s wrong?
Cardinal — Great (compared to Mark Madsen)
Wilikins — Nope. Made game winner but that may be it for the year. Needs to come off bench/not start.

by ChicagoViking on Oct 31, 2009 10:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

With limited TV time for the Wolves in my area...

I can only see the occasional game and last nite was my first of the year. That being said here are a couple of my thoughts that I haven’t seen posted yet.

  • Hollins has nice athleticism, BUT his basketball IQ is horrible. Just check out his court awareness, spacing, and offensive or defensive positioning. He reminds me of the typical awkwardly tall kid in high school that was taught nothing more than to stand near the FT lane. Lambeer needs to work night and day with him. If his positioning and awareness were better, he could be an asset instead of a liability.
  • Jawai reminds me of another ‘baby Shaq’, Stanley Roberts; nice soft touch, but not polished at all.
  • Where was Sessions? Rambis is really sacrificing early season minutes for him to get Flynn & Ellington some minutes. He should be turned loose a bit more.
  • Brewer, for all the criticism he gets, as SnP point out is often in the right place at the right time even if he doesn’t finish. That tells me three positive things about his game; 1) he has the IQ to know what to do, 2) he has the athletic ability to put himself there, and most importantly 3) he puts forth a solid (if less than effective) effort. So, as down on Brewer as I have been during his brief career, I’ll still take these 3 positives over the negatives of his shooting and ball handling. I can’t believe I just said that… I only wish more of the Wolves had these 3 traits.

by Keebler Crunch on Oct 31, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No one gets an extension today

That’s not Kahn’s plan, either you’re:

- an unusually good value (Sessions)
- you have potential to be a starting player on a contending team
- you leave and make cap space to get one of those two

Pech, Brewer and Gomes all fall squarely in the 3rd camp.

by Django Z on Oct 31, 2009 11:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Player options aren't the same as extensions

With Brewer and Pech, all we’re talking about is one year at a fixed (and low) salary. Plus, Kevin Love falls into this category as well.

I’d be stunned if Kahn didn’t pick up the options on Love and Brewer. Pach I’m not sure about…I won’t be necessarily opinionated whether or not his option is picked up.

by Oceanary on Oct 31, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't look now...

But Ramon Sessions amassed another +6 game last night while the Wolves were getting blown out. And in spite of a -4 stint to open the 4th Quarter.

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 11:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I have a question about Corey.

Does he have vision problems? I’m serious. If you watch him, he plays very well until he takes his shot/lay-up/dunk. It seems to me like it’s vision problems.

by KGMN on Oct 31, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Did you just watch Major League?

Perhaps Rambis could loan him his old specs…

by aarendsvark on Oct 31, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's an interesting thought

but after a certain 6’9" McHale draft choice was found to need corrective lenses, you’d think that the Wolves would check their player’s vision.

I think Corey just has a great big case of what my old college roommate called the “Try Too Hards”.

by levi_mn on Oct 31, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, I thought about that (the Kurt Rambis part)

I have no idea what you mean about Major League.

by KGMN on Nov 2, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This game is why I see the Wolves with only about 22 wins

While Cleveland will be a contender at the end of the year, they came in as a struggling road team and the Wolves had no chance. There are 10 teams in the league that the Wolves may not beat, about 6 in their conference. That’s 30 losses just against the best teams, maybe a couple less with upsets.

An observation from the game, I was really surprised how oafish Shaq looked out there. Not as down on Cleveland as SNP, but he needs to pick it up or they will be in trouble. One other thing, Brewer is not helping himself. If Kahn had another month to decide and Brewer keeps playing this way, the extension would not happen.

I think Gomes future will be partly decided today. If Brewer’s contract is extended, Gomes is gone, probably before the end of the season. If Brewer isn’t extended, it is a message to both that they need to perform better if they want the money. I would actually like to see Kahn challenge them in this way. I won’t be surprised either way on Brewer today, but with the other guys available I lean toward thinking Kahn the money will be better spent next summer (who is better, Brewer or Sessions). Even if Brewer gets a bit better, how much is it going to take to sign him next summer in this economy?

Trade talk, cap space, and draft position will dominate talk all season, no doubt.

As for critiquing performances, mine is pretty simple. I want to see the team play hard and fight, as well as be energetic and fun to watch. Of course I ultimately want to see which guys fit the system. At the end of the season, if they have 3 or 4 guys who look like they fit, and one or two are starters, I will be happy. This is also all I expect. There will not be more than 4 or 5 players on the current roster here in two seasons, maybe even next season.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Extensions

I have no particular position regarding player extensions other than to note if Brewer or Gomes are not extended, both are gone at the end of the season or before. The idea that they would still somehow be retained is not at all likely. Their value as an-important “asset” is negligible. What team would give anything of substance for either of them? They are more valuable to us, but that does not mean Kahn wouldn’t dismiss them in exchange for a bag of chips. He has done that before already. They are anything but perfect players right now. But it is early. And who, exactly, do you propose to replace them with (at least within a time frame where there will still be fans of this franchise left)? I found it a bit off-putting that the Wolves had such a lackluster crowd for the only visit of one of the league’s biggest stars, and when the team was not yet saddled with a huge losing record. What does the future portend?

by ogishkemuncie on Oct 31, 2009 6:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Gomes could fetch something. His flaws are exposed on this team, but as a bench player on a competitive team he could be quite valuable.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Oct 31, 2009 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, actually

neither apply to Brewer. It’s a team option for 2010-11 which has to exercised by Monday of he becomes a UFA after the season. I would not exercise the option if I were Kahn.

Gomes has a weird partial guarantee; his entire remaining contract becomes guaranteed if the Wolves don’t waive him after the season. I’d be shocked if they kept him.

by Eric in Madison on Oct 31, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It has to be today I believe

The Monday deadline only applies to the 2006 draft class, and only for contract extensions (since those players don’t have team options remaining).

by Oceanary on Oct 31, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think its Monday

the FAQ (section 50) notes the 10/31 deadline for 3rd and 4th year options, but footnotes that its the next business day if the 31st falls on a weekend.

At any rate, no news about it either way that I can find this morning.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 1, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, an extra game to make a call with then

Looks like Pecherov is going to start, so a big game from him today could really sway Kahn’s mind.

by Oceanary on Nov 1, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

defending the lack of a flynn/sessions backcourt.

no one’s taken it on, so i figure i’ll give it a shot. not that i nesc. believe everything i’m sayin…

1. flynn needs time to learn the triangle. not just any offense, but one that requires the player to read the defense. in the blink of an eye. we hear that the first thing rookies struggle with is the speed of the game, and PG’s struggle more because they’ve got more to think about, and we’re piling a twitch requirement on him, too? i understand why he’s just putting his head down and going for the basket…

2. and a slight addendum to 1: if you have a flynn/sessions backcourt, you have two playmakers out there, and flynn can freelance while sessions has the ball. maybe good in the box scores and in the short term, but i think for flynn’s long term development you’ve got to make him sink or swim out there, and learn from experience.

3. lack of a consistent outside shot in the backcourt. not that Brewer is Mr. 3 Point Shot or anything, but we’d lose a lot with those two on the court in that dept. especially once Mr. Jefferson gets things going. there would be no reason for any player on the opposing team to leave the block on defense.

and, of course, people have brought up the height situation, too, hmm, i guess that kinda ruins my statement that i’m the only one to bring up negatives about this.

so i’ll shut up, and go back to hiding in the back of my dark house cause i didn’t have time to buy candy.

by johndough on Oct 31, 2009 8:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think point 1 was a reason to do it

Flynn was struggling with the offense – I am pretty sure he rarely initiated the triangle. But the kid can score and shoot some. So let him be the SG for 5 minutes and play within the system. And the Cavs have small guards. And we were getting killed. Missed chance in my book. Even if it was terrible we still lose :)

All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer.
Homer

by CaliWolf on Oct 31, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone else

want to see this lineup at some point in a game for a decent stretch?

Hollins
Love
Brewer
Ellington
Flynn.

The reason I say this is that 1. Hollins and Flynn would be pretty damn good out of the pinch post. If Hollins defender doesn’t collapse on Flynn…he scores. If he does, Flynn just passes it back to an undetered Hollins (who we all know has hops. It just seems like the kind or easy option set within the triangle that requires teams to trot out specific lineups to stop. Plus, you could replace brewer with Sasha and have arguable the best shooting lineup out there at the same time for when teams do correct their lineups.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 1, 2009 8:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

But doesn't that article

tend to prove that our theories were right? That Miller and Foye were good supporting cast players (which they would have never been allowed to be in MN), but poor primary options? I am glad for their success, but can’t say that it makes me feel bad about the trade. Lucking out and getting rubio for the future is as good of a swap as we could have hoped for.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 1, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed...

…foye is a good 3rd guard and miller is a fantastic 6th man/4th or 5th best starter. the rub is that with jonny flynn on the court, and al jefferson in the post, they could have been pretty good with these two guys on the squad.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 1, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty good, but how much better could that team get? The immediate product would have been more fun for sure, but in two or three years would you rather have the current version of the team + significant cap addition, future picks and Rubio, or the Foye/Miller version which would likely lose its pick to the Clips. I had enough of watching a team be a perennial 8th seed during the KG era, so I’m naturally a much bigger fan of going all in in the hopes of doing it right this time and actually putting together a team that can compete.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 1, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

they would have definitely...

…had a 6th, 7th, or 8th seed ceiling. I like the choice Kahn made vis-a-vis that one. I’m not so sure it will play well with casual fans, but I think it’s the right path forward.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 1, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They have looked good

and good for them. I have trouble seeing how any team with Arenas, Foye, and Miller on the court at the same time can actually guard anyone.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 1, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Brendan Haywood guards all 5 positions!

But yeah, seriously, let’s not bemoan Foye and Miller. We knew exactly what they were, so this shouldn’t surprise anyone. I wish them the best, but I’ll take a shot at a superstar every time over those two for a team in our current position.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 1, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the good but not good enough theory of basketball

Well, yes, it’s quite true that had Glen Taylor kept the 2008-09 team basically together (with a few subtractions and a few additions like Flynn via the draft or Sessions via free agency), the TWolves would probably be playoff bound and definitely out of the lottery come next spring. Also, in posting the link to Mike Prada’s story I didn’t mean to be rubbing people’s noses in it, as the loss of talent is a done deal and nothing is to be gained now by the “if only’s”.

I do hope, however, that this will put an end to the “mediocre vets with no upside” talk, when referring to Foye and Miller. My read on last season continues to be that we had a much better team than certain selective stats and end-of-road-trip Target Center games showed. Allowance should have been made (but wasn’t) for health factors and mid-season remakes when assessing the team; several TWolves players were badly overextended post-Big Al’s ACL but McHale nevertheless did a decent job at keeping the team competitive. Perhaps even more important, FO also had made some very smart moves which would have positioned the TWolves well for the future.

That’s all gone now, and people commenting here say they can be patient with 20+ win seasons, but will that prove to be true? There was precious little patience found as the second year of the post-KG rebuilding ground to a close last spring. Southham writes “tear it all down” and, between the hatred towards McHale and the draft frenzy, all I heard was TWolves fans howling for blood.

Be that as it may, there are some very nice positives this year, such as Flynn, Rambus, Sessions, and Brewer. We’ll have a long, sobering season, however, to think about where to go from here.

by artreddin on Nov 2, 2009 12:15 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I’m pretty sure this season is only further proving that Miller/Foye are mediocre vets with no upside. They are NBA players with some talent, sure, but they shouldn’t be anything above the 4th/5th best players on a team – exactly the situation in which they are producing right now.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 2, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so sad

Sorry to be so blunt about it, Xand1, but it seems that you can’t evaluate talent even when it’s staring you in the face. Out of all the posters here you are the one who’s constantly dissed Miller/Foye, even going to the extreme of calling them “very mediocre vets”.

There are roughly 500 players in the NBA. What would it take for you to concede that a player is top-notch talent: … the top 10% in a positive statistical category? … the top 5% ? (i.e., 25th or better)

Right now your “below average passer” Randy Foye rates in that top five percent in Assists and in AST/TO. He rates #1 in FT% and in the top 10% in two other assists-related categories and FGM. Not bad for a new guy on a talent-loaded team who was projected to only be a sixth or seventh man off the bench when Arenas needed a rest.

Miller’s stats are even more impressive: top 5% in no less than eleven categories (including #11 in steals and #8 in defensive rebounds… the latter all the more surprising as he’s a SF/SG) and top 10% in two others.

Granted, the sampling size is small though shows continuation over from pre-season. As for upside, Foye is young and evidentally still growing; Miller, on the other hand, seems to have re-made himself in the past year into the most valuable player possible while recognizing his shooting limitations within team goals. Fan-post criticism about his reluctance to shoot to the contrary, this highly valuable personal development strategy – along with his hustle – was obvious to most everyone but you, and has only further strengthened with the Wizards.

But I suppose that your saying it’s so makes it so. God forbid, it couldn`t just be that you might be wrong. `Course, that’s nothing that you’d ever admit to, so I’ll be awaiting your normal weak, opinionated rebuttal.

by artreddin on Nov 3, 2009 12:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

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