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Hitting in the name of...

Wanted to put this up a little earlier but then I crashed my motorcycle so it was postponed a little (don't worry I'm OK, nothing really bad just an aching shoulder and a bruised ego as I crashed it in right in front of the school where I teach :)).

Without further ado, this post is about Intentional fouling. It's a topic that for a long time has been lingering in my head but the trigger for this post was this foul by Jarvis Hayes (Ed Note: changed to Jarvis) which donned him an injury .. (it might as well have been Hollins who was injured: dangerous, dangerous stuff...)

Star-divide

As a born-and-raised-in-Belgium-kid soccer was the game of the playground. Soccer is the only team game nationally televised so naturally I've watched some soccer in my day as well. Since I've made the switch to basketball I've always found it remarkable that it sometimes is a good thing to make a foul.

In soccer, if  you make a foul close to the goal it's a penalty kick, which means a very big chance of making a score. It has even come to the point that if a player would have been head to head with the goaly but the defender makes a desperation foul, the defender is immediately thrown out of the game... Sometimes it's still worth a gamble to make a foul but it's never a good thing if you get caught. (Though I have to say in soccer 1 point is worth a lot more than 1 basket in bball.)

In basketball on the other hand, when there's a situation where the offense is gonna get a sure 2 points, the defender can make the decision to just ram the guy and make him earn the points again. Again, as he already earned them once by doing the thing that would have given him the 2 sure points.

The only negative for the one making the foul is one foul for the defenders. So ok, you can't really do that all the time but still. 1 foul, often on a player who's just a sub and won't be getting 5 fouls anyway is a small price to pay for trading 2points @ 100% for 2points @ 75%...

So, my question to you all is this: what would be against a rule that, in a situation like in the video above, says the offense gets 2 points anyway + 1 bonus free throw. After all, shouldn't the defence be punished for making fouls instead of the offense?

For the sake of clarity: I'm not talking about "regular" shooting fouls, I'm talking about these fouls that are clearly to prevent the offense from getting the easy basket. I find it so weird that a player gets called a "professional" for doing something that's "against the rules"... especially since that thing was dangerous for both players.

As a final treat to you all, the inspirition for the title of this fanpost:

1 recs  |  Comment 14 comments

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Wow what

a different way to look at it. i’ve never thought of it that way.
I’ve always been a firm believer in “earing your points at the striped line” but now I think I’ll change my beliefs from what you’ve said. It makes complete sense.
Consider this recd man.

Purple Haze is the worlds greatest Natural Resource.

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Oct 31, 2009 3:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I might consider giving one point

plus one free throw. This would limit intentional fouls to only when absolutely necessary like the end of a game. It is frustrating as a fan to miss out on a dunk and being stuck watching two free throws instead. I tend to believe the player earned their points when they got in position to make the easy basket. To paraphrase General Patton, he shouldn’t have to earn the same points twice.

by Rumblebee on Oct 31, 2009 3:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wim, are you really Brad Pitt?

Wim’s Accident

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Oct 31, 2009 7:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The guy committing the foul was Jarvis Hayes (Chuck plays for the Rockets).

by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 31, 2009 7:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Fair point

My sporting background (Australian Rules Football) conditions me a little more to acts of brutality, but the big problem is what is “clearly” an intentional foul.

Subjectivity kills sporting rules and if there is a different point scale for intentional fouls then it is sure to become a point of contention as players become more subtle in the way they beat the suitcase out of their opponents and refs are asked to discern shades of grey rather than black and white situations.

Judd: "...I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and I realise that pressure points are no laughing matter.".

by Auswolf on Oct 31, 2009 7:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Definitly a good point.

I think this also exists a bit in calling a “regular” shooting foul versa a flagrant foul … though that happens so few times that it’s not really a problem.

@paging (for the sake of keeping the posting compact): thx for the correction

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Nov 1, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

better to handle this under current rules

Yes, that was a nasty hit and too many are allowed during the season. Jarvis ends up injured so some might think there was justice, but he was only doing what his team, or at least the coaches, expected from him. Unfortunately, we eventually end up with games between the walking wounded (for the fans), and season- or career- ending injuries for the players.

The simple solution is for the ref to call these attempts to lay on some hurtin’ as flagrant fouls. Not only does the offense get the +1 or two free throws but they also get the ball back. The problem would disappear overnight.

There are too many injuries in the game as it is, without condoning play that leads to deliberate ones.

by artreddin on Nov 1, 2009 8:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Disagree

Speaking as a player, your natural instinct on defense is to prevent the other team from scoring. Sometimes, that means fouling. A good foul can be just as productive as a block or other type of defensive play. While defenders should never try to hurt the guy they are fouling, I think taking away that option for a defender would not be in the best interests of the game.

by TimAllen on Nov 1, 2009 9:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I think if a player even

has a chance of making a play on the ball then it is just a part of the game. When it gets past that point, I could see how you might want to be a little harder on the fouling party. I am not sure how you would want to write that rule though.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 1, 2009 10:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

So granted, it would be hard to make the difference between a “desperation” foul and a honest attempt at good defense.

On one hand you don’t want to discourage attempts at playing defence (the all-star game proves this .. or even the Suns of a few years back .. everyone loved to watch that team but I really thought there was nothing fun to watch .. but that on the side).

On the other I still think that if the defender makes a foul, even if he didn’t mean to, it should still be the defender who is punished.

So the best is probably somewhere in between. Maybe that in-between is how it is now, giving a foul to the defender and awarding the offence a chance to get the points anyway.
Maybe it’d be better once we’re in the bonus every shooting foul automatically gives 2 points to the offence instead of immediate free throws .. Or maybe there’s other alternatives.

That, and the point artreddin says, in-air collisions like above should, in my view, be flagrant fouls is.

As a quick side point, for all the problems that exist with the refs, respect to them, it must be an incredibly difficult job.

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Nov 1, 2009 12:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Clear path fouls

Weird, that no one’s mentioned this yet, but the rules already have a mechanism to prevent the wrong type of fouling. If a player has a clear path to the basket and is fouled from the side/behind, he gets two free throws and the ball back. Any other situation, and the defender still could theoretically prevent a field goal, and therefore deserves the right to foul.

That’s the NBA’s take, and I’m not sure how they could make it more fair without basing it completely on referee subjectivity. Sure, losing a few dunks stinks, but I’m not sure it’s such a hugely unfair advantage for the defense. The would-be dunker might only make one of two at the line, but how many other times does a defender get so badly that they can’t even properly foul, resulting in a three point play?

by John Doe on Nov 2, 2009 4:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hmm this clear path foul thing is exactly what I had in mind … why does it not get called? It didn’t on Jarvis Hayes and it also didn’t get called on Sessions.

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Nov 3, 2009 6:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

New one on me

Wonder why this isn’t called and why can’t SnP call Sterns office and fix this!!

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Nov 3, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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