2010 Free Agents
I was wondering if the Wolves could get a Joe Johnson after reading a previous post, so I downloaded the 2010 potential free agent list and combined it with the recent projected PER for 2009. I don't agree with all of the PER but it gives a rough idea of the top prospects. Looking at cap space for next year and it seems like 12 teams have cap space similar to the Wolves with another 6 or so that could be players in the free agency market if they loose their superstars. What I am assuming is the Wolves won't draw a Kobe or Lebron, etc, but they will be looking for that secondary star player. Joe, Rudy, Marcus Camby, and Ronnie Brewer seem like they could fit into that category. This is my first post and I don't know how to post a picture of this spreadsheet.
Thoughts?
0 recs |
165 comments
Comments
What about taking a waiver
on either Anthony Morrow or CDR and seeing if the offers are matched? I find it unlikely that the wolves will land anyone of note and those two are about the right age and somewhere in the right price to fit with our overall strategy.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 7, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like CDR.. He lit it up in the first preseason game and apparently played well in his limited minutes last year, so he’s a guy to keep an eye on. Not so big a fan of Morrow unless Ellington totally fails as they seem very similar.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 7, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree about cdr...
I’m still pissed they didn’t take him last year.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 7, 2009 5:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
I wanted CDR, Chalmers, or DeAndre Jordan and all were available to be had (and Chalmers we did have!). We coulda had two of them. We would be set at our athletic big guy who could back up Big Al and Love and we would also have another shot at a future-starter at the 2.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"We coulda had two of them."
I don’t think you can be mad about pick #31, only pick $34.
Pekovic was the right pick at #31 the same way Rubio was the right pick at #5. It stinks that we have to wait, but if and when he comes over, his value will greatly surpass that of anyone else we could have had there.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think,
based on having heard numerous knowledgeable sources all unequivocally say so. You’re welcome to disagree with them, but you’d be the one going out on a limb, not me.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've never heard anyone
question whether a Euro’s game will translate to the NBA? All I know is that I haven’t seen this guy ever play a single possession so I am not about to put money on him being even a quarter as good as Big Al (who I have heard him compared to).
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a question of degrees
Pekovic has more question marks (when he’ll come, transition to the NBA game) but I and most people think that those small issues don’t nearly negate the fact that Pekovic is the most dominant player in all of Europe.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, Travis Outlaw, meh, to be honest, lot’s of crap on this list. Probably just prefer to draft a wing and save the space to resign our young nucleus.
by Ebomb on Oct 7, 2009 2:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they would be better
served making some reasonable deals to the Morrows and CDRs of the world. Odds are you can pick up at least one on a fairly reasonable deal.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 7, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The FA list is kind of crappy indeed if you assume we won’t be getting a Wade/James/Bosh etc. type of player. This is why I’d prefer to take on a quality player on a longer deal from a team feeling the economic squeeze. Gerald Wallace, in particular, is interesting to me because of the owner’s apparent desire to sell the team should lead them to look to get out from their long-term salaries. They’ve already ditched Okafor, so Wallace might be next, and if they’re looking to deal I bet he’d be available for pennies relative to his talent level. I’d certainly rather get him for cap space + returning CHA’s pick versus signing Joe Johnson to a 5 year 75 million deal or whatever it is he’ll be looking for. Blech.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 7, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I would rather wait until next year
The whole big fish in a small pond rather than an average fish in a big bond.
Wallace is too injury prone though, otherwise he is the exact type of player I would want. Agree, thumbs down to Johnson. Evan Turner anyone?
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any injuries to Wallace this year would make me want to stay away, but if he’s healthy then I’d be OK with trading for him. He did play 70 games last year, which isn’t too bad, and would be a full-time 3 if he came here so he might be less of an injury risk.
And yeah, bring on some Evan Turner. I think he can be Joe Johnson or better, depending on how he develops his shot this year.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100%
Depends on how he holds up this year. I would like to see some advanced stats on when Gerald Wallce gets injured. 5%PFinjuryrate and .3%SFinjuryrate. Haha, let’s start those stats.
As far as Evan Turner goes, defensive players have a higher floor automatically. Corey Brewer’s floor is much much higher than if he was just average at defense. In fact, if he was average at defense, he wouldn’t have a job now. So Evan Turner can be no worse than Brewer is now, but with A TON more upside. I can’t wait to see him play a bit this year.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s already 10x the offensive player Brewer ever was because, well, he can actually dribble. He also gets to the line and seems serviceable from midrange, so yeah, big SG who plays D and has a well-rounded offensive game. Sounds awesome.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Camby is too old for our core
I’d rather focus on teaching Hollins to be that player for us
by Cedarpenguin on Oct 7, 2009 3:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can you apply an age filter?
It would be interesting to see who in that group is less than say… 27? I’d hope to only have players < 30 when we start pushing into the playoffs in 2 years.
by Cedarpenguin on Oct 7, 2009 3:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
With the age filter
Who’ve we got? Rudy Gay. Joe Johnson won’t be ancient, just expensive. On the less exciting side of things, Linas Kleiza, Travis Outlaw, and Renaldo would be solid pickups, if not necessarily starters.
by aarendsvark on Oct 7, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Camby is definitely too old. Joe Johnson is pushing it
I think Johnson is definitely a player to consider, but it will depend on how we do this year. If we play well and show serious promise, I say make a run at him. He’d be out Hedo (if you think about it, Hedo is a lot older than the Raptors’ core of Bosh/Bargnani/Calderon) Johnson’s not ancient, and his game is built to last in the NBA.
Rudy Gay I need to see some major spark in this year before I get behind him. Talented, no doubt, but he declined in every single category last season and was pretty lacksidasical for most of it.
Ronnie Brewer is just Corey Brewer utilized correctly. No need there.
If we really want to swing for the fences, maybe we hold off next summer and go all out for Durant in 2011….?
by Oceanary on Oct 7, 2009 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
wow
didn’t even think about that. I think the wolves are going to try to conserve enough cap space to try to sign someone later, but I don’t know how they pull something like that off without trading jefferson and his contract (unless the cap goes up in that year).
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 7, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy Gay most likely declined in every category
because of Mayo. Apparently they didnt have the best relationship ever (although word is it has improved this off season). And I can definitely see Gay taking off it taught and utilized correctly and Memphis, like MN in the past, is not that place. For the right price, I would love to see Gay suit up for us.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the options for wing just don’t seem to fit with what we need. I like Rudy Gay but don’t think he’ll be worth the money. Same with Joe Johnson. One situation I’ll be watching closely this year is Philly. If they start to drop and we could get Thad Young I would be ecstatic. If (or when) they realize they aren’t going anywhere this year I think we could get Young with a pick, Pekovic and some cap relief. I would be okay with taking on Kapono’s $6 Mill in 2010 and postponing our spending until 2011 to find the final piece for us.
by jballer_13 on Oct 7, 2009 4:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't they be more inclined
to move Iguodala than Young? And I’d rather have Iggy, I think.
by LoveTo on Oct 7, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting.
That Mavs stats guy said he’s a deceptive galvanizing force on their squad. Some poor statistical dimensions, but huge +/- positives.
by TheH on Oct 7, 2009 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love Iggy
Solves a lot of needs. Young, good size and length, great athleticism. He’s an elite defender and can do anything except consistent long-range shooting. Gets to the line a lot too. He’s the prototypical small forward. Has a long contract in the teens, but I’d love to have him. Can’t see any reason why he’d be available but he’d be as good as we could get probably. I’d take him over almost all of the 2010 class, no question.
by nja700 on Oct 7, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: the galvanizing force, were you talking about Iggy or Young?
Iggy would be awesome, though it seems unlikely they would look to move him. Maybe if it comes to the point that they need to shed salary and Brand can’t be moved so their only choice is to trade Iggy, but I don’t see that happening for a while.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if they slip...
They’ll first try to dump Brand for 10 cents on the dollar before touching either Iguodala or Young.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s what I meant.. I don’t see them trying to move Iggy unless it’s a last resort, i.e. nobody will touch Brand’s absurd deal, and I don’t see them reaching that point for a few years.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question
is who else or what else would they have to include to get someone to take brands deal? Probably Young. So would they rather keep young and Brand or trade iggy?
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They have other young players...
Holiday, Jason Smith, Speights. One of them could be used as a sweetener if necessary.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they are rebuilding
it will most likely start with Young. I don’t see them moving him on his rookie contract any time soon. It’s like us saying we are going to rebuild again and then send Love away… oh wait that happened this year and Love is still a TWolf. Young aint coming to us for cheap no matter how they do. Too bad, I would love to have him. Andre would be nice, but again, don’t see him getting moved. We’d have to give up…. at least a pick and Flynn or Rubio (and they just jrafted Jrue) plus Gomes-type filler.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Joel Przybilla and Kelenna Azubuike from this list.
by PoohRubio on Oct 7, 2009 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One name interests me.
Kelenna Azubuike.
Young.
Underrated.
Solid numbers.
Position of Need.
Could steal him for cheap from a team that has players at his position.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Oct 7, 2009 5:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is he really an UFA, though?
Last year I thought the Warriors matched a 3-year offer from the Clippers. That’d mean another season under contract. That’s how the HoopsHype page has things, too.
by feral on Oct 8, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
… I just threw up in my mouth. Even though I’m still pulling for the guy.
by TheH on Oct 7, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I answered a similar question on RealGM
From my perspective, we’ll have better luck looking for trades than for free agents. We’re one of 7 teams with the cap space to go after other teams’ max salary free agents. I think we’d be best served trying to corner the market on players available in exchange for cap space while other teams are still holding onto their cap room in hopes to sign a free agent.
via Free Agency
1) LeBron James
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Rudy Gay
4) Joe Johnson (but only if the contract is very reasonable)
5) Josh Childress
Via Trade of Cap Space + Cheap/Free Assets
1) Chris Paul (one can dream, no?)
2) Danny Granger (even less likely, but his team is lousy, stuck at mediocre, and lacks flexibility…)
3) Kevin Martin
4) Rudy Gay (S&T, if we can’t get him as a free agent)
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Joe Johnson (S&T, again only if cheap)
8) Andris Biedrins (more for mancrush, less for fit)
(Targeted teams: New Orleans, Indiana, Sacramento, Memphis, Philadelphia, Charlotte, Atlanta, Golden State)
Those 11 guys are pretty much the only ones I want us using significant cap space on. Other than them, there are some cheaper, younger options who could be worth pursuing either as free agents or via trade, but only if we were certain that they wouldn’t screw up our ability to pick up one of the heavy hitters listed above.
Cheaper options, in no particular order
Brandan Wright, Kelena Azuibuke, Anthony Morrow, Travis Outlaw, Julian Wright, Amir Johnson,
by John Doe on Oct 7, 2009 6:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Accidentally hit 'Post' instead of 'Preview.'
I guess the list of cheaper options ends there.
by John Doe on Oct 7, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I think Biedrins would be the perfect fit with Jefferson or Love
He’s in that same class as Tyson Chandler, Greg Oden and Andrew Bynum. Tall, long, athletic, good defender, and efficient offensively without needing a lot of play calls.
I really like Hollins but this is the first year he’s going to be asked to do anything really significant, so it’s anyone’s guess how he’ll respond. Biedrins would be a reliable 15-10 guy.
And I like Azubuike as well, although I’d rather aim for Evan Turner in the draft to fill that roll. Better defender, higher ceiling.
by Oceanary on Oct 7, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrens is good shotblocker,
not sure about being an overall good defender. Tyson Chandler is definitely a big step up defensively.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 7, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you imagine...
…what our rebounding differential would be with Al, Love, and Biedrins? We’d lead the league in rebounding for the next 5+ years.
by TheH on Oct 7, 2009 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His playing style would be a great fit
I meant he’d be a bad fit in terms of resource allocation. If we were to keep him, Jefferson, and Love around for the long haul, we’d be talking about $30+ million used up on three guys, and one of them has to be on the bench at all times.
Don’t get me wrong, I like all three of them enough that I think it would be worth it, but getting Biedrins in a salary dump this offseason would certainly hurt our ability to get depth along the wing.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The flip side is that you have essentially the best front court in the NBA. At pretty much all times you’re able to have 2 double-double bigs on the floor, which would be ridiculous. You still need back court talent to win, but you probably need less when your bigs are a virtual lock to dominate the other team’s front court.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well yeah, I'd love to have him.
I just wouldn’t make him my top priority.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked where you were going with this
but then you ignored S&Ts almost altogether. There are probably a ton of options out there. Start thinking of teams way over the cap who would love a shot at some of these guys? Houston, NO, Dallas (always willing to take on more money), Utah (depending on who they keep), Orlando, Denver, and probably a couple others. Not all of these are necessarily attractive for FAs either, but more so than MN and they all have some decent assets to send our way.
Also, Renaldo Balkman anyone? He would be a nice backup for Love and Big Al.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By sign and trades you mean
we sign a free agent to trade him to a team without cap space in exchange for one of their players? I’ll assume so.
It’s definitely another possibility, but you’ve then got to consider
1) Who we’d sign
2) How much money
3) What team we’d trade him to
4) Whose contracts match up salary-wise
5) Would the other team do it
I think a lot of the time you’d end up going through four stages of hypothetical just to get to step five and find that the team we’re trading with won’t give us any of the guys we want. In any case, the trading team would be looking to win now, and thus wouldn’t want to give up any major pieces in exchange.
If you have some ideas, they’d definitely be worth adding to my lists. But I just don’t see a way to realistically speculate.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A S&T kinda works like that by itself
you talk to teams who have assets you want (young guys who can’t necessarily contribute immediately or good assets who are slightly worse than the one coming on – to push them over the top) and who also want assets they can’t have without you. All we have to do is find a team who has something we want and who wants to sign a FA. Then they decide who and how much money. There go steps 1, 2, and 5. Now we just have to get our name out there saying we are open to sign and trades becuase we have something other teams want (cap space, it’s like using your expirings as trade bait after they have already expired) and there goes 3. Once we have that, we figure out who we want and they tell us 1,2, and 5 and we match salaries.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it's a realistic possibility, yes.
But I still find it hard to speculate on.
Free agency: we need to find a player for us.
Salary dump: we need to find a player from a cash-strapped team.
S&T: we need to find a player for someone else and a player/package from their team for our team, but the player/package we get has to be worse than the one we sign, and salaries have to match.
It opens up pretty much any player in the league to be acquired by the Wolves, but as far as making another section of possible targets to add to the ones I listed above, I haven’t the slightest idea of where to start. Too many variables are in play.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost every player...
unless you take out all of the teams who are not in the market to sign a max player (Lakers; Boston; Spurs; NO, Orlando, and Utah would find it tough, Knicks have no one we want. Of other teams looking to compete who would be ineterested in dropping talent and potential for better talent we are probably left with Houston, Dallas, Washington, Denver, Chicago, Philly, Phoenix, Detroit and Portland. Then take out the teams that are not looking for a max player and you are probably left with Houston (who will be significantly lower in terms of cap after TMac, but they still have to sign Scola again and possibly extend TMac to a smaller deal), Detroit (A.I., Gordon, and Villanueva as evidence), Washington (Arenas will most likely be extremely pleased to play alongside a star), Dallas (who is always open to adding more money), and Phoenix (possibly…). Out of the players on those teams that we would want and consider and would actually fit, we are down to about 5-10 players.
That took me about 5 minutes to figure out and write up. Have Kahn call up those 5 teams and maybe a couple more if he sees something he likes and he has put in maybe a half hour unless a team responds positively to the idea.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I'm trying to get at is
Will you just do it for me?
Thanks to my whining, you’ve made it this far already. You’re almost there. Can we just make this a collaborative effort, where John Doe provides the easier to conceive lists of free agents and salary dump targets, and Mplax does the extra critical thinking to provide the list of potential sign and trade scenarios? I’m too hungry to do this right now.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha well I just ate so we're golden!
You did the hard thinking already though by saying something about sign and trades and it just made me think. I’ll come up with a few players. Off the top of my head we could target: Caron Butler, Trevor Ariza and/or Scola, Dallas doesn’t really have anyone of significant interest now that Howard is a FA, Tayshaun Prince/Austin Daye/Summers/Villanueva/Rip. Thats all for now. Maybe I will find some more later.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this list might be a little too simplistic
Next summer, I think NO would gladly give up 2010-11 exp’s and talent (J Wright?) to another team to help facilitate acquiring a max player.
I could see Boston try to use Ray Allen or Rondo (again) to try to make a move.
Houston is only committed to about 34M in salary for 2010 right now. I don’t see them being a good S/T or salary dump partner under most circumstances.
by The Rambis of Kahn on Oct 9, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that about Houston too
But they also have Scola who is most likely to be picked up with Aaron Brooks getting the old extension as well. The only “true” salary they have coming off the books is TMac, and I wouldn’t be altogether surprised if he got another 4M per year offer.
I ignored Boston for now because I don’t see them really being a destination for many big FAs. Rondo is worth more than anyone on the list besides the obvious ones who would cost a lot more. So he is still probably more valuable unless they get Lebron or Wade… which they wont. And we don’t need Allen or Rondo (no matter how nice it would be).
NO would love to give up expirings and Wright for a max player, but that’s not gonna happen with their current load of crap. Mo Pete, Songaila, and Stojakovic just aren’t enough to make a player with cap space take on Julian Wright.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hence why I said
they are in the market, but would find it tough.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In principle
I agree that a trade is more likely and I agree with many on your list. Add Luol Deng to the list? I’d surely make a pitch to Dwayne Wade first though, no matter how unlikely.
I’d like to clear enough cap space by declining Brewer’s option this year and Gomes next year so that we could absorb a contract like Kevin Martin AND sign a 2nd tier FA that can provide wing defense like Josh Childress. Paul and Granger are higher desired out of this world longshots.
by Blond Ricky on Oct 8, 2009 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deng could be interesting, though his contract is huge and he has huge question marks given his declining production and injuries. I’d want to see him come back to form and play a full season before making a move for him, and if he’s actually playing well then Chicago might not want to move him. He’d be a nice fit if he gets back to where he was, though.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deng is almost impossible
His contract makes him have negative value, but he still has significantly positive on-court value as a member of Chicago’s up and coming core. They wouldn’t trade him for straight up expirings and cap relief, but no other team would be willing to give up good players for him.
From the Wolves perspective, I personally wouldn’t take him for free. I’d consider absorbing his contract for straight up salary if Chicago threw in Noah as well, but they obviously wouldn’t.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can say they wouldn't trade him for expirings and cap space,
but would they not accept the exchange if they were able to sign, say, Bosh or Dwyane Wade in that space?
The league’s very possibly going to come loose next summer. Teams moving on the big name free agents are going to have cleaning up to do.
It would depend on how Deng had looked this coming year from our perspective.
by feral on Oct 8, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose so
He’d certainly become cheaper if they had a signing lined up and needed to make a little space. But even in that scenario, I think their first choice would be to look for a way to move Hinrich. Deng has a place in the starting lineup. Hinrich does not, and definitely wouldn’t if Wade were signed.
It’s a moot point anyway. I don’t want Deng on my team.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like your list
and agree that a major piece is more likely to come from trade than a straight up free agent signing. Given that, I’m a little surprised that they are so willing to buy out Blount and Daniels, because one of the ways to make this happen is with expirings at the trade deadline this year.
Especially if another team wants you to take on a bad contract to get their star. For example, the guy I want is Kevin Martin. (YMMV). What if Sac says to you: OK, we’ll take expirings and draft picks, but you have to take on Beno Udrih’s contract to get Martin.
My point is, it doesn’t necessarily have to wait until the off-season. And in fact, I’m not entirely sure you get the best deal in the off-season. At the deadline, there will be teams suffering more than they expected, both in terms of record and revenue.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 8, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Kahn
would do that deal to take a large contract other than for the good player they are trading for. The only way he makes the trade is straight up for salary cap relief plus picks. Maybe throw in some of our talent depending on the players involved. But we can all just forget the huge star for an immediate playoff push type trade. Kahn has been very upfront with this and we as fans keep hoping for success much earlier than we should be.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I don’t really think he would o that either, but I might. As for hoping for success sooner than we should be, I disagree. Maybe sooner than we are going to get it, but as fans, we should hope for success today.
Look, I get it. i get why Kahn has spoken about 2-3 years before this team is good. I frankly have mixed feelings about that plan, but he’s in charge. And the team desperately needed a rebuild. However, that doesn’t mean I have to have infinite patience. There’s been a lot of talk about trying to hold the cap space beyond next off-season. That would frankly be a big mistake in my opinion. At some point, you have to move. I don’t care how smart Kahn sounds. You have to go win, and that means finding good players. 2012 isn’t the time to do that.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
technically
that would be 2011. Just saying. If every team with cap space locks it up with large deals this year…..then there are fewer players next year. Don’t spend just to spend…that’s how McFail jacked up. You would think we would know that. You don’t see the Spurs spending money just to spend it. You acquire an expensive toy because it fits and works in your system…if there isn’t one don’t blow your wad.
Does anyone think that Kahn won’t work hard to try to find that piece? We have plenty of draft assets to pick up a wing prospect or two, plus sign someone like CDR or Azubuike and get our staff to develop them over a season. With an good to very good PG and frontcourt play that is all you need. Would I love Wade or Lebron….hell yes. You could plug them on our team and get some vet role players and be good to go. But only if you can get them. And I would pay through my teeth to get them. But there aren’t any other players on the market worth 75% of that.
While you say you have to spend it, this is still a business and if the owner doesn’t make money…they blow up the damn team. We as fans just need to be aware of this. If you are saying that you would pay over $100 for a crap seat and promise to show up for every game during the year then you can demand the team to do whatever you want. But if you aren’t going to bankroll this operation you are being a little unreasonable.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reality is that – barring trades – how good this team is and when is going to be largely due to how well guys on the roster right now play, and next year’s picks. This team is going to go as far as Flynn, Love, Big Al, Sessions, and the role/bench players will take them.
Unless Wade comes here, there just isn’t an answer that makes the team better in free agency.
Incidentally, I don’t believe in constant 3-year plans either but think the team is going to be competitive this year.
by Punisher#8 on Oct 8, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to wait and see
what happens with Gay. If we can figure out what he is being offered, or at least a close neighborhood, then we can see if it is worth it for us. He will make our team better without a doubt. The question is, if he doesn’t get any better, how much better will he make the team and is it worth the money? The answer is a straight up no as things currently stand. BUT, assuming he gets better and learns/matures a little more, we can hold out hope that he will be worth the money, especially considering our current 3s.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just commented on this on the other thread.
If the $ are right like with Sessions (not the exact amount, but rather value), then by all means go after Gay. What I wouldn’t want to see is a Rashard Lewis overpay-to-make-sure-we-get-him scenario.
by Punisher#8 on Oct 9, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The more I look at the list of free agents
the more I get lost. They have made all of this cap room for next year but where are they going to spend it?
I can see them doing some sort of sign and trade like you said or wait in free agency until all of the big names are gone and the bar is set for the next level of free agents. I think Kahn will continute with smaller signings with young talent and to a certain extent build the team through the draft. I doubt he will take on a bad contract to get a slightly above average player like Martin.
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, you don't have to spend it.
Love and Flynn might need big extensions in a few years if they play to potential. You don’t need to set yourself up for trouble down the line by overpaying for someone now.
by Punisher#8 on Oct 8, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above
You DO have to spend it. Hanging on in case you have to pay Flynn in 4 years? That’s not a plan.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 8, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention unnecessary
You can go over the cap to extend your own players’ contracts. There’s no need to save that money for them.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither is spending to spend
I don’t disagree that they should add talent, but throwing money around unwisely ties up their cap.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You spend it if the player is worth it. It's not burning a hole in your pocket.
With the exception of the big name guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Kobe, there are not a lot of guys I like at $7/8 million per year much less more. You are not getting value.
This team is going to have some good picks and can use money to resign core guys who have played together. If there is a bargain at any price point, do it. But this list of FA’s isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Of course you are allowed to go over the cap, but that doesn’t mean you can/will. Look @ the Bucks with Sessions, the decision Utah had to make on Millsap. It’s not an endless pool of $.
by Punisher#8 on Oct 8, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
“I think we’d be best served trying to corner the market on players available in exchange for cap space while other teams are still holding onto their cap room in hopes to sign a free agent.”
Good point – I think that is a very likely senerio. Kahn and team must realize they aren’t going to be players in the max salary players.
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the Answer
I don’t think Joe Johnson is the answer. I don’t think Kahn will think so, either. In fact, I agree with posters who feel that trades &/or draft picks are more important than FA’s (despite our getting Ramon Sessions this off season). I think most of the better FA’s will re-sign with their present teams, but certainly not with us. If our young players gel, then our primary concern will be keeping them together, and building with draft picks. They will have their own fan following and the club will not need a ‘name’ to increase interest.
by ogishkemuncie on Oct 7, 2009 10:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Call me mad but I’m more and more starting to think that .. why could we not get a tier1 player .. Players want to get paid and they want to win.. If we can show some promise .. why couldn’t we sign .. say .. Dwayne Wade … apart from that he doesn’t fit at all .. I wouldn’t be surprised if we sign a tier 1 player .. why not?
On the other hand .. a summer of Joe Johnson and Josh Howard .. now that would be something…
Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009
by Wim (Belgium) on Oct 8, 2009 4:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Anything is possible. If Wade is really looking to leave Miami, it’s entirely possible he could come here. I don’t know how he feels about MN, but we will have a great young core and plenty of money to offer him, plus he’s no stranger to the cold weather. Not getting my hopes up by any means, but stranger things have happened.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wade played
at Marquette…which is in Wilwaukee.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he’s from Chicago, so yeah, the Midwest shouldn’t frighten him. If you really break it down, MN isn’t a terrible destination for him. Let’s see:
-Max money
-Near his home
-Promising young core of up and coming players that would complement him well
-No established star so he’d be the man from day 1
You could say the same about the Bulls, of course, but I think it’s possible that the Wolves could overtake them given the assets we’ve got. Blah blah it’s a dream etc. etc., but it’s interesting to think about.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's used to it
But that doesn’t mean he likes it or finds it even remotely acceptable having lived in Miami for so long.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possibility
Could a Chicago area kid (KG) sell another Chicago area kid (DW) on the fan base and passion of basketball in the hinterlands (MN)? Just wonderin’.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Oct 8, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could
but Wade will either be back with miami or be a Bull, Nyet, or Knick (in that order). The extra amount of money (endorsements) and crowd love he will get being a hometown kid will make signing with the wolves just a little less appealing that it would have to be.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They want to get paid but..
I think the top tier guys are playing for a ring as well. They would rather put themselves in a position to have a shot. Wolves have not had a lot of luck attracting big name free agents even when KG was begging them to come play here. Second tier guys are all the Wolves are going to attract and only if they don’t have a similar offer from a better team.
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a defeatist attitude
and needs to be nipped in the bud. We are putting together a team that will have a shot and may only need someone like D-Wade to push us over the top. The KG Wolves had compound problems – KG’s contract, inept front office, little 2nd tier talent, etc. Those situations have been resolved and I think we could be an attractive team.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Oct 8, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry! I am not trying to be defeatist...
just trying to be realistic. These guys don’t move around much, so they seem to go where they think they have a chance to win now, not in 3 years with a building program. Don’t get me wrong I think the Wolves are doing a great job, but to expect they are going to attract max salary players next year is not very realistic. I think they will have that chance in a couple of years, just not next year.
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And for the record...
…I am not Mssr . HFaMEF (the above poster) but I do share his position.
Plus, I believe that unrestrained homerism should be nipped in the bud, not realism.
by levi_mn on Oct 8, 2009 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They only tried to get one top tier guy through FA...
T-Mac in 2000. He was interested but ultimately went to Orlando because it was home and because the assumption was that he could make them as good of a team with Hill as the Wolves were at the time. Other than that, there’s really no history of the team attempting to sign a perennial All-Star in his prime.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember...
hearing a rumor before TMac was a free agent of the Wolves having an offer of Terrell Brandon for TMac. I also remember Toronto considering that offer but then Brandon got hurt. Does anyone else remember hearing this?
I have no proof other than my faulty memory.
by littleboxes on Oct 8, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure. Brandon wasn’t hurt after the ‘00 season, but it would’ve had to be sign-and-trade.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wade is in play
There is no doubt he is in play this offseason. Miami’s roster is just yuckie, I don’t know how else to describe them. He is the sole reason they are not an 18 win team.
Besides some of the other selling points to Wade already mentioned, I think the uptempo style would appeal to him as well. He’s been grinding it out with Pat Riley for a few years now, and I have to believe a quicker pace with some more help upfront (Jefferson and Love are far superior to what he’s got now in Miami) would appeal to him. Again, it’s not that far out of the question to envision us being contenders by adding Wade.
1 – Sessions/Flynn
2 – Wade
3 – Role player X
4 – Love
5 – Jefferson
I mean c’mon, you can’t tell me this team can’t win 50+.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 8, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only problem remains outside shooting .. we’d have to have reaaaaaaaaaaaal good shooter(s) at the SF ..
Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009
by Wim (Belgium) on Oct 8, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft Paul George, a 6’7 athletic SF who’s got great range. Problem solved! All in all, though, that’s a minor issue. You could slot a guy like Gomes in at the 3 and I think that’s still a 50+ win team no problem.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't knock Miami's roster
Have you seen the actual contracts? Every bad deal expires after this year, and they could decline options to literally clear the entire team if they wanted to.
They’ve got two young compliments in Chalmers and Beasley locked up for a combined ~#5 million. They’ll still have enough money after signing Wade to give max money to Bosh, Stoudamire, or Boozer and throw money at a decent defensive center to round out the starting lineup.
I really think they’re secretly the best free agent player. Everyone talks about Cleveland, New York, and Chicago when they should be talking about Miami, New Jersey, LAC, Minnesota, and Oklahoma City.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NJ and Atlanta
Could be players as well.
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned New Jersey
And purposely ignored Atlanta. They’re in the Houston range of having some cap space (~$10 million), but not enough to make a significant, league-wide difference. They’re a player for Joe Johnson, since they can go over the cap to re-sign him, but not a whole lot more.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry meant Portland and Atlanta
by Hoping For a Miracle..Expecting Failure on Oct 8, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I wouldn't count on much from Portland either
Most if not all of the money coming off the books will be used up by Roy and Aldridge’s contract extensions. This past offseason was really their year to spend everything they could, which is why the Darius Miles situation absolutely killed them.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't atlanta
potentially going on the block to be sold?
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
No, I hadn’t even looked at their contract lengths. Holy crap they are wiping a ton of money off the books after this year. For some reason I thought Jermaine was still going to hang over them like an albatross for a year or two, but I was mistaken. Well, here’s hoping they implode anyway and Wade doesn’t have enough confidence that they can attract the multiples of talent they’d need to truly contend for a title.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 8, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rubio to Houston
for Battier and… Brooks? That was the offer, but I would prefer a replacement for Brooks unless he takes off this year. Especially with Battier getting a year older. Or sign Bowen to a vet minimum.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
we could take Ariza off their hands and send them Rubio and Gomes.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both of those deals are highway robbery for the other team.
You’re giving up top-of-the-lottery type talent in exchange for nice complementary parts. Bad exchanges.
by feral on Oct 8, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'll win 50
But in my opinion it is not a championship contending team. The central weakness is the combination of Jefferson and Love as your starting 4 and 5.
by levi_mn on Oct 9, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I am just not sure
that I buy this. The more that I think about it, with love and al slimming down to not expose them not having super athletic skills, they should cease to be such a defensive liability. Any defensive liability they give up they more than make up for on the offensive end.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 9, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ssssh, just embrace the narrative! No big FA’s will ever come here! Big Al and Love can’t bring you success! The Wolves are dysfunctional!!!
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 9, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just my opinion
You’re welcome to drink your choice of methyl anthranilate and sucrose dissolved in dihydrogen monoxide or join me in a brew of some Jamaican Blue Mountain.
by levi_mn on Oct 10, 2009 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it interesting
that methyl anthranilate is used as a bird repellent.
It is also the artificial flavoring for grape Kool-Aid.
by levi_mn on Oct 12, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet
In college I called that double dipping. Hitting two requirements with one item.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 12, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Johnson
turned down the latest Hawks offer:
“The Hawks offered a four-year, $60 million extension this summer, but Johnson instead plans to become an unrestricted free agent after the season.”
Which tells me that he expects more than 15M a year or a longer contract than 4 years at around 15M per year. Neither of which I think Kahn would even consider offering him.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 9:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I really think he’d want something like 5 years 75 million, otherwise why leave that much on the table? That’s way too much for a guy who’ll be nearing 30 in the first year of the deal.. There’s huge albatross potential on a deal like that with his age, potential to decline and the possibility of changes to the CBA.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe has to feed his family
Is it just me who thinks Joe is going to look like Spree turning down 3/$21M and then getting nothing? Sure Joe is going to get paid, but is there any chance somebody throws more than $60M his way? Or more than $15M/year?
All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer.
Homer
by CaliWolf on Oct 8, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubt it
Not sure why he turned that deal down unless he feels there is a lot of money to be made as one of the bridesmaids in the LeBron/Wade sweepstakes. Whoever has money to burn that fails to land one of the two big fish may be willing to overpay for the next tier down.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 8, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or he joins Wade in Miami if Bosh turns them down.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prediction
Wade and Bosh to Miami
Lebron to the Nyets.
Amare to the Knicks.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 9, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gay
Kahn would have to offer 10M+ to get Memphis to not match, which again I don’t see him doing.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They have the cap room to match around there
plus the room to sign any future draft picks etc. I think they are high enough on him to do that. Even though the owner is a cheapskate.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why I really don’t like the Gay (nohomo) idea. Memphis will match any offer we make that’s near his true value because it’s not worth letting his potential leave for nothing, so to have any shot at landing him we’d have to grossly overpay because of his potential (unless he shows superstar potential next year..).
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless there is a sign and trade involved
but I am not sure I like Gay enough to spend that much in salary and the picks and loss of other talent. I would much rather pick up CDR for much less.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t like that idea either, at least not based on what I’ve seen/heard/read so far. If he gets back on track and starts showing big progresst his year then things change, but so far he’s proven only to be an inefficient, volume-scoring ballhog with lackadaisical D. The potential of his athleticism and size is only worth so much if he can’t put it together mentally. I, for one, don’t want to be watching a guy who makes 10 mill and has elite athleticism play half-ass D and throw up contested 20 footers and generally not making good on his potential. In fact, I can’t think of anything more frustrating than watching that for the next 4-5 years.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus I am not sure if he
fits into how Rambis wants to play. Rambis isn’t going to value I need the ball in my hands to drive types or lets go jack it up types.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's
why Rambis used to hate coaching Kobe…he wouldn’t play the system. There is a story about Rambis walking off the court and saying noone could coach Kobe. He also used some colorful words. Kobe is great for when things breakdown and you need a clutch shot. He also draws out the D. There are a couple of ways to draw out the D. You don’t need to be a volume shooter to do it though.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha I know I got your point
I was just pointing out that any coach would rather have Kobe on their team than Corey Brewer. No matter how much I hate Kobe… it’s true.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding Ding Ding!
We can bluff with the threat of our cap space and get Memphis to give us Gay in a sign and trade.
We tell them we’re really high on him, we see him as our future face of the franchise, and we’re prepared to offer him a front-loaded five year deal starting at $12 million/year. Or, we say, we could work out a deal here so that you’re not losing him for nothing. If you can work out a sign and trade with his contract being in the $35 million/4 year range, we’ll send back Corey Brewer and Charlotte’s future.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
you can manage to get him for Brewer and a 1st. I mean maybe if he is just bleeding cash, but that is a hard sell to the fans. From memphis’s perspective they need something else.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might be misunderstanding.
I’m saying we tell Gay “Don’t sign a deal with Memphis unless it’s a S&T to bring you here. Whatever they offer you to stay, we’ll pay more.” Then, we convince Memphis that they can either S&T Gay to us on a reasonable deal, or lose him for nothing. We don’t have to return fair value when the alternative is no value.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
but they hold the trump card. They can always match. And from their perspective, they have to explain to their fans…who are already disinterested because of his spendthrift ways why they didn’t match or gave him away for next to nothing.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What good is a trump card...
…if you’re afraid to play it?
There are a lot of reasons for Memphis to be less than fully motivated to bring him back. They want to cut salary, he’s not playing up to his potential, he’s a scorer on a team of scorers, he doesn’t defend on a team where no one does. We need him more than they do.
I didn’t mean to make it out to be a guarantee. It’s not. But I do think it’s worth acknowledging as a possibility.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
We pretend to be really high on him and offer him a contract in the 10M range backloaded. And then watch Memphis match and cross one more team off of our list of potential competitors in 3 years. Wait… it’s Memphis and they wont be there anyways… eh.
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely an option
If Memphis won’t play ball and let us have Gay, we should at least force them to massively overpay him to keep him. It’s only right.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what if they don't
match our above market offer? I wouldn’t want to pay 10M+ for him..I would pay around 8M for him though.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would suck.
I don’t know. Hopefully, they don’t recognize the value of forcing a division rival to overpay and call our bluff.
In that scenario, they’d lose Gay for nothing (bad for them) and we’d overpay him (bad for us). Hopefully, before it came to that, they’d recognize this possibility and instead agree to a sign and trade where they lose Gay but pick up a draft pick/Brewer (less bad for them) and in turn, we wouldn’t have to overpay to get him.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then we all patiently await SnP's article
about Gay!
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing not being mentioned
Is Kahn’s focus on player development and scouting current NBA players. My guess is that the regional scouting team will be looking at guys to add next summer, and any signing might be a big name. It might end up being an under-the-radar guy who the team thinks will break out in Rambis’ system (Kelenna Azubuike?).
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"might NOT be a big name"
sorry
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
A guy like Azubuike or CDR would be right up Kahn’s alley. young players with potential who can take advantage of the player development coaching staff. Why build the staff if you aren’t going to use it? We as fans can’t get our head out of the gutter long enough to realize that this is still a business. There is no cap on front office and coaching personnel, only players. Why not hire top notch coaches, etc and have them get the most out of the players you are paying? We all want a high priced all star to cover our instant gratification fix…it is almost never a good move from either a product or business move. Build a system, give it time and make smart decisions and it will all pay off…just look at the spurs. Or the patriots, etc.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s about maximizing your assets, though. Moving on cap space/expirings means you can bring in a proven player. Nabbing young steals is awesome, but those guys are far from guaranteed to give you production. If you gave me the choice of CDR or, for example, Gerald Wallace, I’m taking Wallace 10 times out of 10 because you know he’s going to give you good D and produce in the 18-20 PER range. If that’s the choice, why limit the team to going after younger, unproven guys? The only reason I can think to do that over moving for proven talent to put next to our current youngsters is if Taylor gave Kahn a mandate to not take on a big $$ deal.
Now, if they want to go down both those routes, then I’m all for it.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the whole emphasis
on player development was to send a signal. You don’t spend all of this money on coaching to make your players better and then sign a big name free agent that doesn’t need it (this can be argued in some players cases). That is an inefficient way to run a business. Let’s not forget that Kahn is a business man first and a basketball fan second. And because of this, he will avoid the types of poor signings under the McHale era because he is reallllly looking for the substance behind the big $ deal. And it usually isn’t there and can be had with a moderate amount of patience and a plan elsewhere.
The more value Taylor can create by using this process the more potential money he has to reinvest in the team later when the time is right by locking up a number of years beyond the luxury tax to field a championship team for a couple year stretch.
If your team bleeds money then you either go out of business or end up like the Clippers and Grizzlies. And I don’t want that for my wolves who have thankfully been better than that…at least during early 2000 or so.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Spurs also fell into Duncan
So that might be a bit of a pipe dream. But I get what you are saying… Make sure Big Al and Love go down with an injury so we are solidified in the top 3 picks. I read ya! ;-)
Spurs kinda got lucky on that one. Here’s hoping we can too!
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Heres one out of left field
would duncan be nearly the player he is today if he didn’t study under the admiral early in his career?
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe so
Would Robinson have won a ring without Duncan?
by Mplax on Oct 8, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I am not a big believer
in mentoring and coaching having a big influence on guys’ careers – some influence yes, but not a lot. That’s just like everyone thinking McHale could magically teach bigs how to be great low-post scorers. The type of touch and fluidity McHale had as a pro cannot be taught once players are 19, 20+ years old. Duncan came to San Antonio after a dominant four-year college career. He was the Big Fundamental before he met the Admiral.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 8, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so much mentoring and coaching per se...
And there definitely are players (like Duncan and LeBron) who will succeed no matter where/with whom you put them.
But I do think the culture/structure of an organization has a lot to do with it. And this may work more for negatively impacting players’ careers than positive. A player who enters a losing culture like Memphis (or, until perhaps now, Minnesota) is going to be less successful, all other things being equal, than one who joins San Antonio or the KG Celtics (Anyone think Rondo develops like he has if they don’t make the Allen and Garnett trades?)
Because there are two NBAs, really. In one NBA, and this is the one often criticized by non-fans, there isn’t passing, cutting, ball movement, or defense. And if a player enters this league, that’s how he learns to be an NBA player (Rudy Gay).
But in the other NBA, teams play D all-out every possession, players know their roles, and offenses work so that players get open looks rather than contested highlight attempts. I’m of the opinion that this kind of precedent and culture set in San Antonio is the reason so many late draft picks turn in to studs, rather than excellent scouting and drafting (although certainly that plays a part also.)
by LoveTo on Oct 8, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that is different
Yes, the right culture and system can bring the most out of a guy’s strengths. Every great organization learns how to put the right type of talent in the right type of roles. That’s why I’m not a system guy at the pro level. You take your talent and then build the system around the talent. A culture can even transcend a system because it usually involves the types of standards and unspoken norms adhered to.
But when looking at a player in isolation of their system or culture, I think any improvement they show is based on a combination of factors, one of which is coaching and one of which is peer mentoring. And even there it is multiple coaches, assistants, and player peers that are giving tips, advice, and techniques. So I wouldn’t go so far as to say David Kahn’s vision of being the best in the business at player development is a bunch of hogwash, but I am also not a believer that a singular coach or peer player can make a dramatic difference. Bill Laimbeer may have some nice tips for Kevin Love and Al Jefferson on defense, but he is not going to coach them into becoming above average defenders. I’m sure the Admiral had some nice tips and advice for Duncan, but it probably contributed to about 2% of his greatness as a player.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 8, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who I am responding to here
mostly just the entire conversation. But IMHO, I believe that the most a player adds to another players game is capped off at how hard they push each other in practice and how well they motivate each other. Not as two guys competing for a roster spot, but as two guys having a friendly competition. I believe Craig Smith learned a lot from Big Al and I believe Big Al learned a lot from Craig. I also believe that Love picked up some stuff from both of them. But I think where we will benefit most is from our coaches instilling us with a sense of friendly competitive fire. I think Sessions and Flynn will both grow because of that as well as Love. Big Al I don’t see as getting better on offense, but a window is opened for him on defense to learn from some good guys. We’ll see. Hopefully they can motivate him more than teach him. I have said it before and I will say it again: when properly motivated, Big Al is a terror on defense. Duncan had some troubles with him when they played, I loved watching that game because it was the first real game where Big Al truly outmatched a superstar. It’s the same with Amare, but then Big Al just turns into an offensive machine sans defense. For some reason, I just really think Duncan gets Big Al’s competitive juices flowing and that is what we need our coaches to do. I haven’t seen it as much with Garnett, but I think it happens there too. It’s just that Garnett is already too competitive to let a lesser player being competitive get the best of him. Makes for a tremendous match up tho.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am completely in agreement about the “single player or coach” thing. Which is why I don’t understand why we talk about needing a “veteran mentor” point guard. I don’t think that would have any positive effect.
But I think you said it best with the “norms” part. On a good team, playing D, moving the ball, and hustling are just things you do. There aren’t other options. It’s expected. The best players do it, and the worst players do it.
Players who develop in that environment will be better than ones who develop in an environment where the best players are chucking up bad shots and not playing defense.
Specific mentors, no. Overall “way of doing things,” in my opinion, yes. And that “way” is developed, over time, by specific people.
by LoveTo on Oct 9, 2009 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the point I was trying to make
was that any player is significantly impacted by three things when they enter a professional career.
1. PT Opportunity (if you never see the floor…you aren’t going to develop)
2. Organizational Attitude (unreal expectations, patience, things like this)
3. Circumstance (Do you have the necessary resources to improve your game? Like having someone experienced to pick their brain to accelerate your learning curve)
These guys are still no more than college graduates. To say that circumstance or environment has little to do with career success is BS. A truly great player may overcome his developmental shortfalls, but there are tons of players that would succeed given the right fit. A lot of these busts that don’t have to happen.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 9, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one is saying that circumstance and environment have little to do with career success
I think what I was saying is that individual coaches and player mentors are overrated in their ability to impact a player’s core skill-set. It goes back to the Tim Duncan comment. Tim Duncan was going to be a great player, whether it was The Admiral on that Spurs team or Charles Shackleford. I’m sure he benefitted by The Admiral, but not enough to materially impact the way he performed.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 9, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed that the Spurs analogy doesn't work
They could afford to be frugal and only sign the right guys at the right price because their 3 player core of Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker was the best in the league.
I’m all for signing good but lesser players on a budget, but at some point you’ve got to acquire the star power, and next offseason will be our best opportunity to do so.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue
that in 2 years with the right training and devlopment staff that Rubio, Flynn, Love and Jefferson could be that core. You can make the case that someone needs to fill in that 2-3 role for wing scoring ala Ginobli, but I am pretty sure that Gay<Ginobli. So why pay him so much and prevent yourself from grabbing someone else or drafting that player?
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 8, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm really saying
is that until we’re sure we have enough stars to form a championship core, our resources should be dedicated toward the acquisition of more stars. Maybe you don’t like Gay in particular, but using our money on someone of Gay’s talent level or better versus underrated role player types is still the way to go.
by John Doe on Oct 8, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy Gay
is Manu Ginobli’s injured toenail.
by littleboxes on Oct 8, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manu Ginobili with 0 functioning ankles > Rudy Gay.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 8, 2009 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna put out a post soon
it’s a continuation of an older post I made (super mega ultimate post part 1). It has taken me a while to get around to it, but I think I am going to add something about how Gay would be a decent acquisition (obviously, for the right price) for us and deserves more credit than he is given.
Just don’t fault Blake Griffin or Eric Gordon in a couple years just because they ended up with the Clippers.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems to be an issue of effort, though, which is why I don’t really buy this whole “he needs a change of scenes” argument. A truly good player raises his entire teams level of play by sheer force of effort and will, he doesn’t loaf because the team sucks. Who’s to say that if we sign Rudy he doesn’t come here and, for whatever reason, start slacking because he’s unhappy? This is why he’s got tons of red flags in my mind. If he was still busting his ass on defense regardless of his situation I’d be a lot more likely to forgive his offensive deficiencies.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
by Xand1 on Oct 9, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he plays like he does now
and is making 8M per year, I would have to assume there are plenty of teams who would take him off our hands.
by Mplax on Oct 9, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs















