Nearing Unwatchable
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 19, 2009 7:14 AM CST
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The best thing about last night's game was that FSN spent a large chunk of the half time program talking about the Twins' awesome new alternate home uniforms. Watching the first few minutes of the 3rd quarter, all I could think about is that there is more to talk about with the new baseball unis than there is with what is happening out on the floor at Target Center. Is the cursive too retro or is it simply classic? Was it a good thing to get rid of the pinstripes on the road alternates? Will the all-gray away unis look too much like pajamas? How often did the words "grass stains" get mentioned about the new whites at the press conference? How many other teams have alternate jerseys that look better than the official ones? Will Joe Mauer look better in Minnesota or New York pin stripes?
As for the Wolves...
It was mentioned in the game thread that I could probably use the Dallas game wrap as a fill in for pretty much every game that has happened since. Not enough talent, too many bench players playing too many minutes, an injured key player, and a rookie point guard who doesn't appear to be close to grasping what he needs to be doing out there. Wash, rinse, repeat.
For those of you who want the details about how a lethargic team of 2nd round picks beat up on the Wolves, here are the Four Factors:
| Pace | Eff | eFG | FT/FG | OREB% | TOr | |
| Houston | 93.0 | 104.3 | 50.0% | 7.8 | 42.9 | 22.6 |
| Minnesota | 90.3 | 48.1% | 10.1 | 30.0 | 23.7 |
Here is the Game Flow.
Here's all you need to know about any take-aways from this game: The Wolves' big 3rd quarter run to briefly take the lead consisted of a rotation of Ramon Sessions, Sasha Pavlovic, Damien Wilkins, Oleksiy Pecherov, and Nathan Jawai. Outside of Sessions (who seems to be outplaying Jonny Flynn by a large margin quite a bit these days) who do you hang your hat on in that group? Watching these games is like going to Target Field to root for Denard Span surrounded by the St. Paul Saints.
What say you?
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I say it's no worse than last year
And as much as I dislike hanging my hat on hope, I will say that the coaching staff is markedly improved from the Wittman disaster, and if Flynn and Ellington get it sometime later this year (say around the All-Star Break) than this team could have a watchable, if bad, end to the season.
Otherwise, I’ll be watching Rubio’s and Turner’s stat lines very carefully from here on out.
Agreed
I was able to be at the game last night, and I feel like I watched a completely different game than most people. Last night I saw Sessions, Wilkens, Pecherov and Jawai begin to get this offense and take it to Battier, Scola, Brooks, and Ariza in the third quarter. And that is progress in my book. For perhaps the first time since the first game of the season a unit of ours hung together and didn’t fall apart despite Houston dropping threes on us. In fact they came back and built a lead (1 point is still a lead ;) ).
What I also saw was Rambis putting the first unit in to see if they could figure it out as well. And, well, they’re still learning this offense (although Al started giving glimpses of figuring out how to play within it). Love will definitely, definitely help this team a lot, but I think waiting for a superstar to fall in our lap via trade is going to prevent people from noticing the growth that is happening on this squad. Are we going to win a ton of games soon? No, so I think we should get over it or put our fandom on hold until next year. If that’s the only way we’re going to enjoy this team then there’s no point in watching this year. If we’re going to judge them on competitiveness, then I think we’re going to find ourselves enjoying this team incrementally more and more throughout this season as the learning, rotations, and roles get ironed out.
I came away from last night’s game feeling much better about this team. I’d been skeptical about actually pulling off a ‘Portland’, but I think two good players (offensive scoring wing and interior defensive presence) combined with everyone playing within the offense will have this team at 40 wins as early as next year. I really do believe that.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Yeah, I was going to say that I saw something that actually sort of resembled basketball for most of this game. Sure, the end result was ugly, but the game itself wasn’t bad as a whole, and there were some positives in Sessions and Al’s play. Al seemed like he was buying into the offense and was doing much less of the “pound the ball, back you down and stop the offense” act he usually does.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Agreed
I was really please with Al’s play. He got 20 points by takings his share of shots. There also looked like a couple of harder shots that he hit that if any one of our perimeter players got into an open three point look where he could pass them the ball he probably would have preferred it. You could see him looking around to find the open guy…there was none and so he took the shot. Very promising to see him read the offensive flow.
by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 19, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
I agree...
Sessions was the catalyst to making the offense click. Wilkins’ heady play and Pecherov’s rhythm shooting contributed as well. My thought is: Why not leave them in?? If they are “getting it”, you don’t put the starters in to see if they can “get it” too, that’s what practice is for! You show that you know what you’re doing in practice, and it is rewarded with game time burn.
At the very least...
They could sub the starters in to keep those guys fresh for the end of the game but just put one in at a time.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 20, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
Going 1-11
with an average age of the “core” players at like, 23, is so much better than going 5-7 with a bunch of 30 year olds.
And I’m not even saying that this core will get any better. Just that the possibility exists is enough to keep me interested.
Do people remember all the way back to last year?
Remember beating Oklahoma City when the Thunder were playing so many kids? Remember how we were actually envious of the franchise that had figured out to ride it out with the young kids?
I’m with you. I don’t watch every game, but when I do there’s always something to see on the floor for the Wolves. Lots of the time it’s frustrating, but it’s not like we’re doggedly watching out Mike Miller’s point forward aspirations, hoping that he and Brian Cardinal will tough one out while Kevin Love sits glued to the bench earning his ten speed.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
"earning his ten speed"
Heh heh.
Reminds of the late great Chris Farley imitating his father at a meeting with the principal, as Chris’s dad bemoaned Chris’s spoiled brat behavior. “Only kid in the whole goddam school with a goddam ten speed bike!”
And since we're looking on the bright side...
… just a few years ago, Wolves fans were REALLY suffering with the knowledge that it would be a seeming eternity before we got the mountain of garbage contracts (THud, Jaric, etc.) cleared away to make room for players like Al, Love, Flynn, Sessions and (hopefully Rubio). I’ll settle for baby steps after that epic s**tstorm of ineptitude.
Here here!
I still love my hometown team! For better or for worse.
You Gotta Admit
Span looks great in that uniform.
I’m finding it harder and harder to explain to the wife why I should be watching the Wolves instead of doing X.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
You lead a very different lifestyle than mine
I almost always “do X” when prompted.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Just My Way of Saying
I agree, heading toward unwatchable.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
I disagree Poor Dick
I was at the game with 3 clients and it was the most dismal entertainment experience I have ever had at a game. No atmosphere in the building, no excitement on the floor, no – nothing. $125 × 4 (less my season ticket discount) plus dinner + parking + refreshments = close to $800 of expense for last night. This is a very typical amount. My clients said the right things (Thanks for the game) but the body language said – get me out of here. That is what happens when you field a non competitive team. So color me as one that has a preference for a 5-7 team over a 1-11 team for purely entertainment value.
I am a true fan – I understand (but don’t always agree) with what is happening. But as a business owner, I am not sure I can keep justifying the expense of tickets for what is being presented to us this year as entertainment.
PS – in the pick the season record thread, I predicted that the team would start 4-17. I add that just to reinforce that I did not have crazy expectations for this year.
Wouldn’t logic have told you to avoid taking clients to Wolves games in the first place if you were expecting an entertaining diversion? We all knew this was going to be rough: rookie PG, a bunch of new players, a new system etc. Entertaiment value for the casual fan is a pretty poor standard by which to judge this current team. I think most of us understand and accept the necessity of some painful ball in the short term in order to field a truly competitive team.
I can understand where you’re coming from as a guy paying lots of $$ for your tickets, but we all knew these guys were going to stink, so that kind of renders those complaints invalid in my opinion. There has to be a more fitting locale for you to entertain your clients and get more for your $$ – maybe a Vikes or Wild game?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I was writing pretty much this exact comment when yours appeared
Thankfully, there are many people who are willing to be patient with this team and aren’t ready to jump ship after 12 games.
But
What you are saying is people shouldn’t pay good money to go see this team? Are they supposed to play in front of an empty house? Is that the way to a competitive team?
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
I don't want to put words in his mouth
but what I think he was saying, and what my point was going to be, is:
You know the Wolves are going through a rebuilding process. You can’t expect them to be that great right now. So, if you’re going to spend money to watch them, you have to go into it with realistic expectations. If you expect high quality entertainment and a winning product on the court every night, it’s probably better that you spent your money elsewhere.
Talk to Cubs fans
I want to preface by saying that it sucks that he’s not getting $800 worth of value out of his entertainment experience for his clients, and if he needs to choose something else then I understand that completely. So this observation isn’t targeted at JAF specifically.
I believe this team is doing exactly what it should be doing. There is a plan, DK and Rambis are sticking to it, and it will produce long term, sustainable results. Right now that what there is to cheer and support, and either that’s something you’re willing to do or it isn’t. If the defining quality of your fandom is only being there for a winning team, well I’m sorry because your team is going to lose, guys aren’t always going to have it every night, and coaches are going to make mistakes. I’m not saying let people off the hook, but being a fan is about more than just wins and quick Iverson fixes. I won’t begrudge anyone who wants out for this year, that’s their choice. I think this team will be playing dramatically more competitively by the end of the year, and I am enjoying watching them slowly get there. But that’s just me.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Nov 19, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
I've been with team since day one
20 years ago. I watched all the ungodly awfulness for years and years and years. I agree that the team needed to be totally blown up. If 20 years of following a franchise through thick and (mostly) thin doesn’t give me the right to be frustrated once in a while (and yes, ignoring the club for a month or two), then call me a bandwagon dude.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
Wow
20 years is a long time, especially with this team!
Frustrate away, my man, frustrate away.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Nov 19, 2009 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Here is where I would be most frustrated
I have paid to see one or two Wolves games in twenty years (before KG). I’ve also sat in the good seats a few times on the company dime. However, without any paid loyalty on my part, I can buy season tickets in a year or two and be sitting in prime seats. What’s the reward for loyalty when a newbie sits in row 10?
"it will produce long term, sustainable results"
You don’t want to go overboard though I understand the need to rationalize the current lousy play. Just because it’s painful now doesn’t mean it will get better unless the FO and coach do their jobs, and the players produce. Kahn still has to prove he can do more than create flexibility, Rambis still needs to prove he can be productive as head coach.
I hoping we see signs of this as the season moves on.
I’m saying don’t take your girlfriend to a Michael Bay movie and expect to get some afterward. Knowmsayin?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
that depends...
Is she both violent and experience massive psychological breaks with reality? If not, then you’re good.
by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 19, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Hey thanks for the advice
it’s especially helpful coming from an academic like yours . . .
HEY WAIT A MINUTE! YOU’RE EVIL! I’d be CRAZY to take your advice.
(but thanks anyway)
I think the wolves this year
would go pretty far in the attendance and fan support area if they could get some high school basketball teams to show up for some sort of game/practice doubleheader package. Have a coach take his team to a practice to watch how the staff helps the team try to work on their game and watch them try to use that during that nights game. Or something like that. It would put some more knowledgable fans in the stands and perhaps help the arena atmosphere. You can’t tell me they will sell out and it would be pretty good PR for the wolves to do some sort of ticket discount for high school bball teams.
by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 19, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
Here is the problem
I have been able to couple a personal interest (I love watching basketball) with a business need (to entertain clients). It allows me to justify spending close to $10,000 on tickets for my 1/2 season. I have been doing this for ~12 years – so I have seen good times and bad.
If the clients don’t want to go because the experience (the team, the building, the concessions, etc) is not good, then half of my justification disappears for spending that kind of bling. So, should I stop supporting the team to join the Vikes or Wild? Not sure how that helps.
I renewed early last year – 1 month after the January run ended. I felt that, with Al and Corey coming back, with a FO/coaching with a more player development focus for guys like Telfair, Foye and Love, and with a couple of high 1st round picks, that we could have a decent nucleus of young players (all under 25) to build a playoff team from. Not an NBA championship team – but a playoff team. (I submit, as discussed in a previous thread, that luck plays a major role in being one of the few “championship contenders” each year.)
Knowing now that the Blue Print from just 3 years ago has been totally scrapped in favor of cap space and future considerations in a new re-re-re-re-building process, I seriously doubt I would have renewed – it was all ready getting tough in last March to give away / entertain with the tickets after Al went down.
It’s just where I am.
Gotcha. I understand where you’re coming from, and it’s unfortunate that they’re terrible right now. Given your situation, I guess all I can say is that I hope they pull it together and at least start making the games competitive and entertaining. I think they’ll get there, and I hope, for all our sakes, that it happens relatively soon.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Also, that stinks that you have to renew that early. I can see why you feel a bit jilted.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
To be fair
I renewed early because there was an incentive to do so. I could have waited and maybe got the same incentive : )
Out of curiousity
Couldn’t you save some $ by buying tickets in the secondary market? I’m guessing that others like you are looking to make back some of their “investment,” and peddle the seats at a substantially discounted price.
Regardless, thank you for supporting the team in the only way that really matter$. We lesser-spending fans appreciate it!
I'm with JAF..
…on this one. Imagine if the Wolves marketing department came out with the slogan “Remember, we’re like Michael Bay, not PT Anderson” or some other quote about…well, wait a minute, they pretty much have. D’oh!
In all seriousness this team is damn near unwatchable right now and they’re not worth what people are paying for tickets and the business side of the equation has nothing to do with the fan side of things, especially in this bad economy. There is no business value with this team right now and there’s hardly any fan value. They aren’t like OKC. There is no A1 talent on the roster. They have a GM who has put them in a position to do well but has shown nothing in terms of his ability to follow through. They are running out rotations with Pecherov, Pavlovic, Jawai, Cardinal…it’s awful. Yes, you have to blow it up to get better but that doesn’t take away from the fact that people who have watched this franchise for a long, long, long, long time view the whole re-re-re-re-re-building thing as just another marketing gimmick, i.e. BluePrint pt.3. There has been a “plan” for the past 5 years and if you really sit and think about it there is nothing this current group has over the old regime in terms of proof of being able to deliver. They are selling hope and that’s it. They have put the franchise in a position to do something (btw: this isn’t exactly rocket science; clearing cap space and accumulating draft picks) but they haven’t done it yet. Meanwhile, we’re watching some of the worst rotations in the league do what? There isn’t exactly a long term building plan to the rotation that had the run in the 3rd. The “plan” is to clear as much room as possible and….
That’s the big question. That’s the hope. I’m giving a pass to this team until I see what they do with some of the assets but when I really sit and think about it, they really haven’t done much to give me any sort of high expectations.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
But without having access to a time machine, all they can sell is hope. It’s not like Kahn can come out and say “Bear with us guys, we’re going to draft Evan Turner next year and sign Joe Johnson to a reasonable deal and everything will be great!”
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
All I'm saying..
….is that it’s tough for even the most die hard of fans to watch right now and there’s not really anything we can hang our hat on in terms of believing that this group is the one who can pull the team through the muddy waters. I know what they could be and that’s why I’m still around (plus, I love pro ball) but it’s iffy at best.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Hm, well, at least we have hope and the prospect of better things to come being sold to us instead of certain mediocrity. At least there’s a plan in place and a guy who seems to be interested in acting on it, which is more than we’ve ever had before. Small consolation for the team’s current play, I know, but it’s something :)
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
there was a plan before...
…that’s where i differ from you a bit. they’ve always had a “plan”. they’ve set themselves up nicely to do some interesting things but a) how much more has kahn opened up the cap space over what was there before (mchale’s last year wasn’t that bad on this front) and b) how do we know he can follow through? don’t get me wrong, i’m buying hope but i don’t think the sale this time around is much different from what we saw under mchale.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I just had no faith in McHale to make the type of decisions a team needs to add the type of talent it takes to win in the NBA. The Love pick was a good one (although it would have taken effort to blow that one) and he made some good deals toward the end, but he never seemed to understand that it takes complementary top-end talent to win. He also hired Randy Wittman, so that right there should tell you all you need to know.
Kahn at least seems to understand what it takes. Can he follow through? I do not know, but I sure hope so. At least he brought in a guy who appears to be a real coach in Rambis and talks the talk about building a winning team.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
this is where i surrender...
….to hope. i want to believe that and i do if i don’t think about it too much. for now i’ll just enjoy watching pro ball and brewer’s development until love gets back.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
this group/muddy waters
There was talk above of how long we have been around as fans. I’ve been watching all 20 years and remember that McHale despite the gaffes was the best GM/PBO (of a mediocre bunch) the team has had.
We don’t yet know what comes next. Maybe Kahn has the chops to pull this off, but maybe he doesn’t and this a sign of things to come. I hope he does because I can’t imagine starting over again in 2 or 3 years (they might be playing in Vegas or another city by then w/o improvement).
you mean..
…you didn’t like Trader Jack? ;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
you've got it
Notice he didn’t keep his rep after his stint here. He was supposed to be the savior too (and had a track record). He didn’t have Coach Daly’s coattails to ride here of course.
But what we're really in for...
Is the most fun Wolves draft season of all time, when the Wolves get the first pick, and Kahn has 3 point guards to rapid-fire trade away before drafting John Wall.
Can you imagine? There would (will) be rumors on ESPN.com every single day. And we could probably bring back a really good haul out of Rubio, Flynn, and Sessions, no?
Well, as the great philosopher once said . . .
Duh!
But if you were POBO/Rambo, what would you do differently?
That question...
Would actually make a decent fanpost right about now. With the level of negativity here, what would posters have done differently?
The one think I can think of off the bat would be to keep Songaila…
Not drafting Flynn..
….with Curry, Lawson, and Jennings on the board.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Figure out a way to trade down from 6
So if they wanted Flynn, they could take him in an appropriate slot.
Also, keep Etan Thomas instead of give up 2nd rounders to wipe off Atkins’ salary. Songaila was too redundant with Cardinal, and they should just keep stockpiling 2nd rounders.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 19, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Can we use hindsight,
or would you have taken Curry, Lawson or Jennings at 6 over Flynn at the time? I thought that Flynn was a strange pick at the time (and not the one I would have made), but I didn’t see a slam-dunk alternative without the benefit of hindsight. Curry is a tweener; 6 was early for Lawson; Jennings had a bad workout with us and other question marks; there were doubts about DeRozan’s skills.
I thought we should have traded the sixth pick at the time, but it’s hard to know the deals that Kahn could have gotten.
i was a curry guy at the time...
..with lawson a close second. I thought Curry was a no-brainer to pair with Love on this team.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
But we couldn't even get Curry or DeRozan...
… to work out for the team. I don’t view those two as having been viable options for that reason.
if they needed a workout...
..to tell what was up with either of those players, something is wrong with their scouting operation….especially with curry.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Flynn wants to be here
…and those guys clearly did not. You can draft a guy knowing he’s just biding his time until free agency or you can build with guys who want to play for you. And also, SNP, wouldn’t you have wanted to see Curry go one-on-one with the other PGs before committing to him?
I'm not a stickler...
…for guys wanting to be here. They get paid large amounts to play a game and hopefully win. In terms of selecting the best player, I don’t think that sort of thing should be taken into account at all. Curry did go one-on-one with these guys in several other workouts. He also had a nice long college resume of showing people exactly what he brings to the table. That’s what you commit to; not an afternoon session.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I totally agree that letting a prima donna (or his agent) dictate
who he gets drafted by is a terribly slippery slope, but I also think a rebuilding franchise needs to have a critical mass of players who are demonstrably on board with a rebuilding process. At this point, at least Al, Love, Flynn and Sessions have said or indicated as much. It may seem like poor consolation, but trying to build on an eroding talent base (guys like Mayo, JR Rider, or any other player who doesn’t want to be here) is a tough way to rebuild.
Here's a hypothetical
Knowing what we know now would you give Memphis 5&6 to get Rubio here two years earlier?
On paper it looks great to get him at 5 and Flynn too, but you can make the case it sets the franchise back in the process.
Absolutely not.
As much of a talent as Rubio is, he wouldn’t have been good this year. I am very confident in saying that.
I think it would be foolish to give up a top 6 pick to bring a guy who isn’t ready over to the NBA two years early, when your target for being a contender isn’t for another 3 years anyway. That’s just shortsighted, bad management.
That's a pretty definitive response
If the team isn’t ready for 3 years, does that remove any value from having someone who is potentially a key piece of the team grow with the coach and other players? Also the roster on paper v. developing chemistry within the team and building/keeping a fan base are two different things.
Time will judge how things play out. But it could turn out to be bad management the other way.
It sounds like could have had him here this year at #2. There could be a scenario where
(A) Rubio is legit,
(B) Flynn maxes out as a backup PG/6th man type, and
© Rubio never ends up here.
Lots of ifs, but in that case Kahn is a little too clever for his own good.
Why wouldn’t he end up here? If we want him still, we won’t trade him.
(A) and (B) seem plausible to me, and that’s a fine scenario, if you ask me. Kind of like Bibby/Jackson in the Kings’ heyday. I just don’t see the logic in trading up for a guy who you can draft where you currently sit. Not an efficient use of assets. Perhaps Kahn missed on the Flynn pick. That doesn’t mean he should’ve given it up entirely to bring Rubio here now when he will come soon enough anyway.
And on the fan base issue, I think it’s better to introduce Ricky to the fans when he’ll be a really good player, rather than now. He’d be averaging 6 points and 5 assists a game, and the Wolves would be somewhere around 3-8 max, and the fans would tire quickly of Rubio.
Honestly...
I think I have turned on about 7 TV games this year. I have a couple tikes around the house to distract me and can use that as an excuse, but even though the TV has been on for hours of games, I sometimes wonder if I have actually watched more than about four hours of action. There is really not much to keep my attention unless the other team has LeBron or KG.
Am I nuts, or did this team at one time actually have KG and Brandon Roy at the same time, a year after passing on Granger??? OMG!! Seriously, think about how much different the tone of this blog could be today.
Well,
at least the netizens here at the People’s Republic of Canis Hoopus are well worth visiting several times weekly. Once the Pups get a little better, the fair weather comrades will flock in. Then we can look back with nostalgia and share our battle scars from these lean years.
Back in my day, the Wolves had to walk six miles to the Metrodome. Uphill, both ways.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Nov 20, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Jeezus
You took them to a Wolves game, hoping to have a good time? What, was the waiting room in the Oncology Department all booked up?
I keed, and I understand your perspective. And I don’t discount that corporate entertainment/sponsorship represents the lion’s share of the Wolves revenue right now (such as it is).
But they’ve got to break it down to build it up. Part of the problem with the past few years has been the unwillingness to take some short-term pain for some potential long-term gain. Keep your tickets if you can—by the time the economy comes back up, this team will be both better and more entertaining*.
*Note: there is no guarantee the economy will ever come back, so keep that in mind when predicting the timing of the Wolves winning again.
I read a headline yesterday where Obama warned of a possible double dip recession
I could not read the article!
What would a double dip Wolves recession look like?
What was the alternative, again?
You’d like $800 worth of entertainment, yes? You’re saying you’d prefer a 5-7 team.
So if the Wolves opted to field a team of middling Mike MIller veteran types and finished with a .417 record, you’d be all about paying that money to see Brian Cardinal work his veteran moxie? Is that it? You’d sign on for season tickets to see what that team was like next year?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Your Right
I should cancel my tickets, watch them on free TV and change the channel when I am bored. Great solution.
Question one question? If all the season ticket holders who aren’t getting a product worth watching (see SnP’s title to this enrty) stopping paying for tickets, how long before they leave MN?
Uh, I know what you're saying....
But again, what was the alternative? You would have a product worth watching, with that Mike Miller-esque team? Is that what you’re saying?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I think
that we would have fielded a more competitive team if we would have let Rambis sort the roster out first, then have Kahn turn over the pieces. The cap space (as pointed out by SnP and Wim a few weeks ago) would not have been that great a difference (a little more than 2M better)
A more competitive team would be easier to watch and would lead to a better game day atmosphere.
That blame we know how to assign
For the sin of allowing last season’s months-long march into the abyss to occur without actively pursuing GM candidates, I will gladly pillory Glen Taylor. I had season tickets to that, and once McHale moved down to the bench the inaction was inexcusable, period.
The entire set of circumstances surrounding the draft and the trade preceding it comes down to Kahn’s only having unpacked a suitcase at Target Center before draft night. I totally agree that it would have been preferable to have Rambis on board. Absolutely. But that just wasn’t going to happen given the incredibly tight timing.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I am a absolute supporter of THE PLAN
But I am really starting to feel bad for folks like you who are paying the freight in a major way. I expected bad, but this is worse. I hope the team finds a valid way to repay diehard payers like you in a couple years.
That alt jersey is fantastic.
I liked Ramon’s game last night, for the most part, and Al showed a little something. Other than that… let’s hope that Love gets clearance to start practicing.
Iverson
Does anyone else get the impression that we would have nothing to lose by going after Iverson for a remainder of the year contract? Maybe he’s not into that and given his attitude, this is very likely. I just get the feeling that for entertainment value, he may be fun to watch. At least we’d have someone on the floor who can shoot a permiter jump shot with some consistency. I will admit I’m not a big Iverson fan and I am a die-hard Wolves fan. If signing Iverson would impede the progress of these young players, then I would in noway support it. I’m just saying, I wonder if it’s something Kahn and co. are even considering.
It just seems like we're putting a lot of effort into building a system
and changing the players’ mentalities to work within that system. I have a hard time seeing Allen Iverson buying into the triangle offense and working within the system. So as tempting and entertaining as it might be, I don’t think it would be productive from that standpoint.
Great point
I don’t think any flash in the pan solution is in the offering here. DK and Rambis are focused on establishing the system, and will add talent if it fits within that model. Iverson doesn’t. Neither does Ellis, or any player who’s ego and self-perception/importance would be at odds with the team game we’re trying to establish. Remember how bad the Thunder were last year? They’re sitting at 6-6 right now with a positive point differential. We can’t sacrifice the work and effort of the last eleven games just to bring in a disruption, entertaining as he may be, named Iverson (or any others like him). I don’t want to win a few more games now at the expense of winning a lot less games later because of delayed development.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
There’s plenty lose, namely chemistry and our system, and very little to gain. No thanks.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I don’t disagree with you guys regarding the disruption of team chemistry that this would bring to the team and I’m on board with having this awful season to help build towards a better “core” in the future. I just wanted to see what others thoughts were on it. I’ve noticed a lot of people are concerned about this team/group of players running the triangle offense anyways, so it was a thought I wanted to throw out there and get some reaction. Let’s hope for the best and hopefully we can bring in a stud free agent at the end of the year. I know Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are highly unlikely to land here, but I say, target Joe Johnson. He’s the guy we need.
Unlike the last 4 or 5 games,
I found last nights game to be watchable. It looked more like a team that was starting to get it, gave a lot of effort, and we were somewhat competitive against a team with a winning record. Offensively, we are lacking talent, so it is going to be a long year with few wins, but I can handle watching what I saw last night.
Jefferson
I thought it was easily his best game of the year. He was efficient offensively, passed, got a few deflections, and rebounded well. I’m generally a Jefferson critic, but this is one game where I felt for the guy. He puts up a very solid performance, yet everyone around him with the exception of Sessions looks completely clueless. Flynn, Brewer, Gomes, and Hollins were just terrible and are why Jefferson was a -17 last night.
He was good last night. I really hope he keeps it up, especially the passing and playing off his teammates. I can probably count the # of times I’ve seen him be the roll guy and actually finish a play off a pick and roll on one hand, but he did it yesterday and got an easy bucket so I hope he keeps it up. It keeps the offense moving AND will make him a more efficient scorer. He was also quicker to pass when the dbl came off his post ups. There’s still room for improvement there, but any improvement is encouraging.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Just A Fan
I remember being the most ardent defender of McHale and the Status Quo on this blog around Last March. Although looking back several months later- I wouldn’t really say I’m angry about the switch. I would say my attitude is “Sleep in the Bed you made”. I must admit I can see the points being made about that lacking long-term upside.
I remember being thrilled draft night to end up with Ricky. I clearly thought that was worth getting rid of Miller and Foye. I still probably do as Ricky has vastly more marketability than either of those two long-term. I also think Target Center would be looking different if Ricky was in a Wolves Uniform.
This season is a pretty much a lost cause. Unless Love comes back and performs at a Wes-Unseld MVP type level. Although I’m thinking Love’s the best player as soon as he comes back on the court. The shooting though I fear is so bad that even with Love back- they’re going to have a hard time winning 20 games. We’re just in Year One of the Second Three year Process.
We've discussed this before, and no doubt will again
after all, what’s there to talk about when your team is this bad?
A popular line of thinking is that they had to blow it up to rebuild it—and I generally agree with that proposition. I’m not convinced they maximized their return on assets already dispensed with, but that’s a different argument. Would Foye and Miller’s contracts and (relative) quality look good around the deadline?
At any rate, there are a couple of subtexts that concern me. First is that this is the way to get to a championship level team, and the “championship or bust” attitude that Kahn has suggested and some fans seem to have adopted as well. Frankly, if I thought they could have built a 50 win team with the parts that were here, I wouldn’t have supported the moves. That looks pretty good from where I’m sitting, and yes, I lived through those years with that team. Ultimately, I thought the ceiling with the Foye/Miller group was probably 40 wins at best, so I was in support of major changes.
But the truth is, it takes a vast amount of luck to get to championship quality. With perhaps one exception, every championship team for the last 30 years has had one thing in common: one of the top 5 players in the league. You can’t just wait around for that; you have to try to build the best team you can. If that means 50 wins, if that means being the Jazz or the Nets from their Finals years, that’s what it means, and I’ll ultimately be OK with that, even if it is disappointing.
There is some pleasure in rooting for a good team, even if it isn’t the best team. My point is that even if things go as well as could be expected for the Wolves over the next 3 years—good picks, good use of cap space, good health, etc,. chances are, they still won’t be in position to actually win a title. There will still be teams better than them. I am neither expecting nor waiting for a championship team here; frankly I think that’s an absurd measure of success. Strive for it, absolutely, but to expect it is to be disappointed.
I saw this coming this year; and I think there is absolutely justification for complaints. We are fans, our team is horrendous. I think Kahn somewhat underestimated the importance of that, not only from a PR standpoint but also from a development standpoint, but this is where we are.
Obviously what comes next will define Kahn—his ability to use assets to build a good team. But if he can put together a young group that is playoff quality, that’s frankly all I’m expecting.
by Eric in Madison on Nov 19, 2009 12:48 PM CST reply actions
You’re right that it takes luck to become a championship level team, and it’s probably foolish to hold any hope for our team getting to that level due to the variables in play. That said, I would argue that it still takes a LOT of talent to reach the level I want them to reach, which is to be a team that can go deep in the playoffs and will compete with, and possibly beat, any team on any night. I still think that a tear-down rebuild job was necessary just to get to that level due to the nature of talent acquisition in this league.
I know it’s hard to put faith in Kahn given our past management and the fact that everything is up in the air, but this team needed a huge huge upgrade in talent even with Foye/Miller here, and unfortunately for the fans in the short-term, being bad and putting yourself under the cap are the best ways to find that talent.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I love watching the team just because...
I really like the players (except Sasha) and the coaches. Yeah, they aren’t very good at the moment, but I truly think they will gets things figured out sooner rather than later.
What I can’t handle watching right now are the refs. Every game is ruined because the team’s struggles are compounded by the brutal incompetence of the refs.
At least it seems like refs are pretty bad in every sport this year
not just basketball. I think the entire country of Ireland wants to kill the ones who missed Henry’s handball. I know the World Series had its share of terrible calls. And the NFL can’t go more than a week without complaints of bad calls, especially roughing the passer calls.
I think it just goes to show that officials in general are a fallible bunch. We just notice it more when its our team that gets screwed by it.
It’s pretty frustrating. The Golden State game broke a personal record for “number of times I wanted to throw/break something.” But it’s also frustrating that the refs assume Corey Brewer is never fouled and just sucks, and it’s frustrating that the league would send them out West for back-to-backs 3 times in one month and have them come straight back.
If there’s any silver lining, it’s seeing the Atlanta Hawks. That team was unwatchable for several years, made some bad trades (Jason Terry for ‘Toine), and has continued to make questionable decisions (not bringing back Childress, drafting Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams), yet they’ve progressed because they continue to add athletes and physical players and find vets who complement what’s already in place.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 19, 2009 1:19 PM CST reply actions
They should give us hope because if they can do it by bumbling their way to success, we should be able to do it much quicker assuming competent decision making. Of course, that part is still up in the air, but hey, I’m giving Kahn the benefit of the doubt because… why not? Until he screws it up I’m going to keep hoping he brings the team back to respectability.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Does your house/apartment ever get so incredibly dirty, random stuff laying all over the place, none of which is where it should be?
And it makes you feel obscenely gross just being in there? That’s how I feel when I think about our team? It’s just disorganized clutter and it’s giving me nightmares.
It's organized, it's just a well-organized garage sale
Really the Wolves’ lineups from substitution to substitution make much more sense to me now than they have in the past. The parts are the right type of parts. They’re just extremely young.
I have hardly any stretches of a game where I feel completely desolate about the players on the floor for Minnesota this year. It’s not like for the entire third quarter of a game we’re watching Brian Cardinal and Mark Madsen at the forwards with Mike Miller setting them up.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I think Sessions should’ve gotten far more minutes than Flynn up to this point, Al hasn’t been right, and nobody else should be receiving the playing time they’ve been getting. Not that we have a choice. We don’t, and that just makes it frustrating. I’ve felt desolate about our level of talent constantly this year. I’d much prefer to watch last year’s club, they played hard and threatened to win games all the time because they knew how to stay close. There was no “Pavlovic just hit a three, we’re only down by 13 now. Screw it, I wonder how that Lakers game is going.”
Sorry if that sounds harsh, I just really haven’t enjoyed watching this year.
You'd much prefer to watch last year?
I had the complete season ticket package last year.
There were huge, long, excruciating stretches of games in which as a fan I had nothing to watch for. The team might be eight or thirteen points down, and so they were in striking distance I guess, but what was I supposed to be rooting for? Rodney Carney having a hot streak was the highlight of several games in terms of our developing useful talent or looking anything like an up-and-coming team. Seriously. That’s not a good thing. Kevin Love on the boards was the other major highlight of the season, and both coaches held his minutes down to show how old school they could be and let him earn his bicycle…. Which he could ride using his “man body.” Inspiration this did not provide.
Meanwhile the roster was badly, badly malformed. Even when we acquired players who made some sense, like Shelden Williams, we did it after Al went down and McHale didn’t care to fit his rotations together in any decent way. Our phenomenal young rebounder was being kept to the bench down the stretch, and I watched us lose a ream of game on late offensive rebounds by the other team. On offense Mike Miller went into “create” mode partly because we stunk at the point, just stunk, for most of the year.
Even in losing efforts, as with the Houston game, I look at the lineups Rambis uses and his rotations, and two things happen: The balance of players makes sense, and there is young talent on the floor to root for. Huge difference from last season.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Yes I would
Frankly, I was pissed that Wittman was extended because he had a track record that strongly indicated that he was not a young player development type coach.
But from the time McHale took over (Dec. 8) until Big Al went down (Feb. 8) we had some mighty fine basketball to watch. We won some, competed in most, with only the occasional brain fart. When Big Al went down, the remaining 32 games became painful.
I think Rambis could have built from that core with a more competitive, entertaining team, this year. But we will never know.
Where would we be if we had Miller and Foye right now?
I know both players have been injured a little, but it’s not like Washington is lighting it up with the two, they’re 3-7. Discounting Miller/Foye they probably have more talent then we do and they should eventually end up slightly below 500, but where do they go from there?
I’d rather take the higher draft pick, the rights to Rubio, and the chance at Derrick Favors/Evan Turner/John Wall/Whoever.
Hey SNP
I beg you, please never mention Denard Span and the St. Paul Saints in the same article again. Bad Bad Karma.
Did I just jinx him..
….to a .260 season? ;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Don’t let the Twinkie Town folks know it was you. Baseball people are an odd breed-their kid’s kids will remember that it was S’n’P who jinxed Span!
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Will Dino Regress in 2010?
I think it’s possible. His results in 2009 were much better than his secondary numbers suggest that they should be. Projections for 2010 don’t like Span’s results to be as good as they were. I won’t blame you, though, should that happen.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
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