Dealing with no hope
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 27, 2009 10:43 PM CST
218 comments
Take a good look at that picture. That's the view from the "Wolves Section" of the Scheel's store in Mankato. 4 shirts (one of them to be picked up by yours truly) surrounded by 5 Celtics shirts, 5 Lakers shirts, 5 Cavs shirts, and some Dwight Howard and Paul Pierce gear. I was out and about at 9 AM for some Black Friday craziness and I'm pretty sure I didn't miss out on the Wolves rush. What I did miss out on was the North Star rush. Check out the Stars' apparel rack:
If you look to the upper right portion of the picture you'll see that the old-school Stars logo shirts were picked through to the bone; with only smalls and XXLs still available at the same time the Wolves had XLs and Ls still available to anyone with some cash in their wallet. For those of you playing along at home, that's a fully stocked apparel stash for a team that doesn't exist compared to 4 shirts for a team that was supposed to play on ESPN tonight.
I say "tonight" because I'm writing the game wrap with 2 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter and the Wolves are flirting with a 30 point loss to the Suns on a game that was preempted for the OKC/Milwaukee tilt on national TV.
For those of you who missed out on the nationally televised game because FSN and Channel 45 didn't pick up the slack, you didn't miss anything. In fact, you may be better off not seeing what happened at the Target Center on Kurt Rambis Glasses Night. The only intrigue available to the home fans was wondering if and when Kevin Love would take off his Rambis glasses while sitting behind the Wolves' bench. Really, that's the only interesting thing about this game.
The only other interesting thing about the game was that the Suns announcing crew took shot after shot at the Wolves' front office for putting together a team that clearly can't compete at an NBA level right now. From quickies about Ricky Rubio to extended stories about how the Wolves were consistently out of position, perhaps it was a good thing that the Wolves weren't granted a national audience tonight. If they did have a spot on ESPN they may go from 4 shirts at Scheel's to 1 or 2.
Some highlights from the game: Robyn Lopez torching Al Jefferson in his first minutes of the season, Earl Clark showing all sorts of versatility, Goran Dragic getting a rebound/put-back against 2 Wolves front court players, Jonny Flynn being completely unable to run a professional offense, several mentions of the fact that the Wolves traded away 2 starters for a guy who may never play at the Target Center, and Corey Brewer missing all sorts of layups and close shots.
That's about it. There is nothing good to say about this game. There is nothing good to say about this team. Forget Brewer's effort and Ramon Sessions' ability to run something close to approaching an NBA offense, this team is unwatchable right now and I am more interested in watching the Thunder take apart the Bucks right now than I am in writing about a team that doesn't even have 5 shirts at my local sporting goods store.
We all knew this would be a bad year. We all knew there would be a pause before the flurry of using the team's considerable offseason assets. That being said, who knew it would be this bad? How can this squad, and its fans, continue at this pace? The Wolves are not even close to winning a game right now. How on earth can they use said considerable assets to put together a competitive team before they lose the increasingly obviously frustrated Al Jefferson? Love coming back will help but will it help enough to bridge the gap between the hopelessness Wolves fans currently feel right here and the now and the time where they may be competitive some time in the next...what, 2 or 3 years? This team is off of the Minny sports radar. Here in Mankato I have MSU hockey on the radio and Dr. Laura will take over when that game is finished. No one is going to the bar to watch this mess. No one is going to Scheel's to buy a shirt or a jersey (except for this guy right here). Where is this headed? What is the end game? This is unwatchable basketball. Wolves fans deserve more than this. Even the diehards. We deserve more than this. This is nonsense.
To be perfectly honest, I don't look forward to watching these games any more. I really don't look forward to writing about them. What am I supposed to write about? We all know the score right now: A complete lack of talent and a bunch of guys who don't appear to fit together. Sessions is a player. Jefferson is a player. Brewer is a player with 4 other players around him. Flynn looks like a chicken with his head cut off. Opposing announcers talking at length about how Ricky Rubio will never play here....what the hell?! Were the folks at www.firedavidkahn.com ahead of their time?
I'm sticking through this but it is increasingly becoming a chore just to pay attention to what is going on. I'm sure fellow diehards feel the same. I know they do. I get emails.
Whatever the case, the long and short of today's lesson is that I got to buy a single Wolves shirt on Black Friday and instead of finding a Wolves sweatshirt for my daughter I bought her a youth basketball for Christmas before we sat down and watched the Thunder vs. the Bucks. Forget the Wolves. I want her to be exposed to real basketball. When will we see real basketball again?
Until later.
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This is the first time ever I do not look fwd to watching either. I have a passing interest at this stage. Not because I do not like the players, but I cannot stand watching idiot plays from people who do not care. This is why i am drawn to Brewer and Love. They care, they try, they play hard even when done by double dig. We need more of that.
We are fans of a simple game. We had the same amount of fg (86) as phx, but they shot 59% (51 made) and we shot 40 (35 made). Simple. No other stat is as lopsided. They made more 3 (10 to 2) but we made more ft (23 to 8) We had similar Turnover (shock-us 15, them 18) they did double on dimes, but the Fg% makes since of that.
It needs to come to the point that we quit asking any other question than Wtdeuce is wrong with Al jefferson. All other questions are either too early (flynn/rambis) or too pointless. What is wrong with Al. Why does he get 5 reb when Hollins gets 6. Whether it is his lack of weight or basic conditioning, Al is simply not physically able to defend the 5 anymore. I believe in years past he was able to play the 5 (short of his lack of desire) but he simply cannot anymore. Love will be called to anchor the middle and that makes Al’s positive effect on this team even less.
10% of his close shots are blocked.
He has a positive +6.8 at the 4, but a -7.2 at the 5.
(with a negative rebounding number at both)
You know advanced stats better than I do. (Flynn has a higher efg?) But the eye test says that Al does not care. Al does not try on defense, he does not hustle on offense. Right now he does not care. Perhaps it is because I grew up watching KG who had passion every moment, but Al seems to not care anymore and I worry that will be a cancer for this team. He seems like a good guy, but perhaps too much losing digs on a person.
by revprodeji on Nov 27, 2009 11:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
They're going to lose Jefferson..
…before this gets turned around. I’m calling it now. He’s not going to sit here for 3-4 more years of crap.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 27, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
then we get to rebuild again!
Hooray!
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Nov 27, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The onion...
…is already on top of it:
EAST RUTHERFORD, NJ—In a continuing effort to destroy their roster and ultimately cause their team’s collapse, Nets officials announced Monday that the franchise was entrenched in a long-term re-demolition process. “Obviously, we’re not going to just fall apart overnight, but our 0-10 start is proof that we’re imploding in the right direction,” said general manager Kiki Vandeweghe. “We’ve been working for years to demolish the core of the Nets roster by getting rid of Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson, and Vince Carter. And with the acquisition of Yi Jianlian from China, a player who is sure to be a bust, this organization has begun to really focus on tearing itself down from the ground up.” Vandeweghe said he is following the re-demolition model established by the New York Knicks and praised the ongoing team-destruction efforts of owner Jim Dolan, who he said is “doing a great job over there.”
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 27, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, seriously...
In the Al Jefferson/Kevin McHale period, it was determined that Jeff was going to save us from the doldrums and agony of putting up an uncompetitive team. Jeff has never been the answer to KG. He never has been. Watching him play, he never will be. I like that he’s pissed off based on the premise that the way his team is playing, they will not win. What I disdain is that he is a quitter. SnP pointed out last game, at least Brewer isn’t a quitter.
Al is. He is, sad as it is to admit. He knows he’s playing for a loser, and he doesn’t seem to care. His inability or unwillingness to play defense is a sad, sorry disqualification. Despite his offensive skill, I doubt he will ever be more than an semi-adequate defender.
If Al will never buy into the idea of team defense, he is a liability. I hope, within the realm of Kahn, Jeff is trade bait, come deadline time. Hopefully, by then, he will have shown his recovery is complete, so we can get some value out of a trade.
I cannot tolerate to watch him continue to be an embarassing liability all season. The sooner he’s gone, that happier I will be, despite our offensive ineptitude.
by JMGrady on Nov 28, 2009 2:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Calling Jefferson a quitter is being pretty selective. He had improved every year and was becoming a clutch, go-to scorer before the knee injury. Guys couldn’t guard him, and he was making shots in close games when it counted – only Cassell and Marbury had ever done that regularly for the Wolves. He wants to win games and showed the fire to do it.
Kahn rolled into town and basically said to competitive guys like Jefferson and K-Love that they were going to tank the season (and maybe the next one?). So there would be summer practice, preseason and 82 games without a serious effort to win. The message is also making it to fans. To think this isn’t going to affect the player is kidding yourself. The minute they decided to tank, Jeff was done, there is serious risk of not signing K-Love, and the idea that a quality free agent is going to sign here is wildly optimistic.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If we can get a decent return for him, I'm all for trading him away
First, he doesn’t really fit our needs on offense or defense. Second, I feel bad for him having to slog through this…he deserves to be on a good team and have his talent recognized.
I’m thinking we deal both Jefferson and Love and go all-in for Chris Bosh this summer.
Until then, really our only hope of being interesting this season is a trade for a guy like Rudy Gay.
by Oceanary on Nov 27, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
…Jefferson deserves shit (lots of young players learn how to play on crappy clubs) but I do think that he’ll ask to be traded sooner rather than later. If I were Kahn I’d be very worried right now. He picked a PG that might not be in the top 5 of the pgs in this draft and another point that might not ever play for him. It’s baffling. How on earth did they think Flynn was at the top of the list of available players? This isn’t Flynn’s fault but I think we gave him a pass on what was essentially a McHale pick: taking a “character guy” who performed well in a tourney. I’m not going to give up on him but there were clearly 2-3 better points available when they took him. I will never, ever get how they took Flynn.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 27, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a question that may entertain us...
…and depress us.
I’m wondering what draft board was presented to Kahn, and what he overruled in order to do his own thing.
I recall reading that our Euro scout was high on Jennings, and I’m guessing he was presented by the front office guys as a better pick than Flynn. I’m wondering what else was in the works by Hoiberg & staff.
The canary in the coal mine will be if Hoiberg resigns to take a job elsewhere. The buzzards will be circling then.
by timmuggs on Nov 28, 2009 12:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You heard it here 1st
Hoiberg, and the rest of the FO, have contracts that expire after this season. They are all aggressively looking for other jobs. They will come back only if they can’t find another job. They dislike working for Kahn that much.
by Just A Fan on Nov 28, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just A Fan
Has connections in the Front Office for quite a while. He’s given terrific insight on this blog for this reason. I can’t speak as far as Kahn’s relationships with members of the Front Office. What I do believe is that we heard similar rumblings about Kahn from his D-League days last spring.
by Jose Cordoba on Nov 28, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a joke
poor delivery. Story of my life.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reminds me of Corey
Right idea, poor execution. Your jokes should become more efficient once their usage rate goes down :)
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Weren't the Bucks going to take Flynn if he was there at 10?
Let’s not praise John Hammond as a savant and call Kahn an idiot when he picked the guy they would’ve.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 28, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Luck has been a bitch to this team.
That’s all.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes it works...
…bit I always get nervous when a guy makes a late jump up a draft board, no matter the sport. See Troy Williamson.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evans was on a huge surge towards the end...
and Harden went earlier than projected. I’m just sayin…
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We got a guy who made a late climb
and a guy who made a late drop… let’s hope it averages out!
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the first few games this year
now this site is all the Wolves I need. It’s just too hard to watch them play, not much effort out there.
thank GOD the vikings are good this year, at least ONE team is fun to watch
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Nov 27, 2009 11:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I think we HAVE to make a trade by the deadline to have any hope for not just this year, but next year too
Location matters, winning matters…we have a bad location and if we’re not showing at least the promise of winning, who’s going to sign here? No one that would turn us around, that’s for sure. And the draft doesn’t have anyone franchise players except for Wall, and what would we do with him?
I’m positive Kahn knows this and is biding his time to see what deals come up, but it’s hard to be interested in this team in the meantime. A big deal for sure isn’t happening until Love is healthy, and probably not happening until late January even then. It’s a long 2 months until then….we’re just lucky the Nets are even worse than we are, or the media would be all over us.
by Oceanary on Nov 27, 2009 11:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's my question--
When the hell does pride kick in? I understand losing wears on a person and Al seems to be on the brink, but isn’t this precisely the time when he steps the F up and becomes a leader? Maybe it’s not his personality, but you would think for his own sanity he would grab this team by the nuts and in the words of C. Rock, “Shake a bi@tch.” Here’s what he should say— “Hey, guys. Look, I know we suck. How do I know? We have Sasha playing for us. Oh, and we’re 1-15. But hey, since we may not have all the talent in the world, we can at least TRY, can’t we? So, um, yeah, START TRYING. Or I’ll send Hollins after you during the game.”
by BDavige on Nov 27, 2009 11:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
His PBO kind of undercut him on being “the man” in the offseason. Also a 3-point shooter at the level of Randy Foye or better would be useful to give Al some space to operate.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean the Randy Foye that's shooting 38% this year?
And is averaging less than 2 assists in 21 minutes? No thanks. There’s a reason we traded him away and the Wizards’ record this year explains why.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The roster was built without a rotation-quality three point shooter. Ideally it would have been someone better than Foye. That’s what I am getting at. Foye did help space the floor when he took 3’s out of the two-man game last year. The team expected much more when they drafted him, but he was effective in that role.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno…he barely shot 40% even last year with us….that’s Telfair-like shooting. He did space the floor because teams thought he was a lot more threatening than he really is, but in terms of minutes-to-production, he was one of the least efficient guards in N BA history last season.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s an aggregate stat that includes Wittman and post-Al injury incredibly lousy teams. My take is more situational (3point shooting on passes out of double teams) though admittedly I don’t have a stat to back it up. It’s based on watching 80% of the games last year.
You can make it about Foye, but my point is that the team needs a 3-point threat to give your best player room to do something he does better than anyone in the league. The team would have made this kind of pickup unless they were indifferent/averse to winning this year. That hampers Al’s effectiveness at something he has demonstrated proficiency at, and sends the message referred to above that they could care less if the teams wins or is competitive.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree we need shooters. Lots of shooters. I just disagree that Foye would be a good one to have.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a problem that they didn’t fill this need in the offseason. Foye is better than what’s on the roster.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a rebuilding year, what did you expect?
Really, I mean, the team we had [last year] was going no where. Yes, this team is horrific and not close to winning a game, but thats kinda the point this year. I’m not advocating losing—as that’s never a successful strategy, but it’s going to happen. Just because Brandon Jennings is having an incredible start, doesn’t mean Flynn is a bust. Look back: in ‘95 everyone was saying that GMs made a mistake by passing on Damon Stoudamire; in ’96 Iverson was going to “change the game” (he never won); in ’97 Chauncey Buillups was considered a bust and began his journeyman status until the Detroit years… I could go on and on with each draft since. The point is, that 15 games or even a season or two does not determine [individual or team] success in this league. Yes, the Timberwolves are unwatchable now, but that’s a part of player/team development. You can’t expect wins right now. Wars aren’t won during the first campaign, sometimes battles are lost before the right leader is identified and everyone grasps the strategy. I would still take Jonny Flynn over BJ. Character counts. We need to pattern our efforts around SAS—a team that values character over flashy play. I truly believe Flynn will win more in his career (think Ray Allen vs Allen Iverson). Would you really rather be a Bucks fan right now? or how bout a Warriors fan? Those teams might be more fun to watch at the moment but neither is doing anything in the playoffs and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Who knows how this could turn out for us? Maybe it will be positive, maybe we win the lottery and nab John Wall, or maybe this puts us in line for Evan Turner (who could end up going top 3). This team will get better. Maybe not in the next 10 games, but surely before the all star break. Kevin Love’s rebounding [and overall presence on the court] is going to change some games enough to secure some Ws. Jefferson will get healthier, Flynn will cut down on the TOs, and everyone else will learn to execute the offense more efficiently.
With all that said though… why can’t Brewer make layups? Isn’t that a gradeschool task?
by SF on Nov 28, 2009 12:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I expected a product that would be more intriguing and entertaining than those Sunsetter Retractable Awning commercials. We’re getting our ass kicked by that too.
by museum on Nov 28, 2009 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
“This team is unwatchable right now and I am more interested in watching the Thunder take apart the Bucks right now than I am about writing about a team that doesn’t even have 5 shirts at my local sporting goods store.”
Glad someone else around here said it. I love watching basketball, and I’d love that to involve a lot of the Wolves. On the other hand, I’m in law school, I pretty much do all the work running a band, have a serious girlfriend, blah blah blah. The time I do spend watching basketball is precious, so I don’t feel like I can afford watch the BS we’re putting out on the court right now. My experience with the Wolves this year is keeping an eye on the score on my laptop to see if they make it interesting while I watch something else, which translates to me not seeing a whole hell of a lot of the Wolves. And that’s a sad state of affairs. Why the F should I feel the need to watch the first half of Sacramento and New Jersey instead of the end of our game? It wasn’t even a question either. Give me Beno Udrih, life is too short and we look like we’d get get our ass kicked by the Rio Grande River Vipers. Last I saw they had Joey Dorsey and he’d maybe be starting for us.
by museum on Nov 28, 2009 12:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
North Stars Money?
Love the T-Wolves. I know we have to wait and see what happens and not worth talking about.
What I’d like to know, and can’t seem to find out, is who gets the money when we buy North Stars gear? I would LOVE to have some North Stars stuff but am afraid that the Dallas "Stars’ own the logo and WILL NOT! give my money to that franchise. They ripped my heart out when they left and, to be perfectly honest, still haven’t gotten over it. There is no way I’m going to pay them to market OUR team’s merchandise to us and they reap the profits!
Anybody know the answer???
by G. D. on Nov 28, 2009 1:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know the answer for sure
But I’d be shocked if it wasn’t the NHL getting all the money from stuff like that. They own the trademarks and the team doesn’t exist.
by museum on Nov 28, 2009 2:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dallas stills owns the North Stars name and trademark
The team didn’t dissolve, just changed the name.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, the franchise is the same
When you think about it, that’s a cold-blooded way to turn a profit: selling merchandise from a team that’s left town. It’s ironic that MLB is still making bank from all of those Brooklynites who want to show love for their hometown by buying Dodgers gear…
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I had the same thought as I was reading the post
Oh well, at least the Wild share in the revenue.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
This sucks. More so than the Wolves and their poor-as-sh!t record, this sucks to come on a site expecting to read about the Wolves and how they did and why the did how they did, but instead seeing nothing but “true Wolves fans” complain about how much they hate our own franchise. Screw this. I don’t care how many people get angry about this post. This isn’t cool. You all call yourselves “true fans”? All this is is a lot of people who are fans of basketball and just happened to grow up in the area. I’m a true fan. I am still giddy about the prospect of watching my Minnesota Timberwolves lose a game. LOSE! I would rather watch them lose than not watch them at all. I’ll support our team through whatever it takes. I’m a poor college student so I might not be able to support them by buying tickets, but whenever I am home I try to watch all the games I can on TV and go to whatever game presents the opportunity to me. Hell, this year I can’t even watch any games while I am home for Thanksgiving. I use whatever stream I can find to watch the game however I can. However choppy the game is, I’m sitting there drooling over the prospect of watching 1 out of every 6 seconds lag by. I can’t stand “true fans” getting angry about the national media making a broad statement about our team (i.e. the drafting of all the 2 pgs this year) and then going and ripping our team to shreads for not winning 2 more games. Yeah it sucks. I agree. But stop joining the national media. Stop writing how unwatchable this team is. If you are a “true fan”, you would watch no matter what the score is at the end of the game. I still think its fun to watch our team. The small things I can look for every game that will give me hope that maybe some day I will be the “true, die hard” fan of a winning franchise rather than the franchise with the second worst record in the league. I will keep wathing. No matter how bad it gets. I will support my team. Because I am a TRUE die hard fan.
Good job Jonny Flynn for being a rookie. You made it to the NBA and you are doing damn well. A couple more teammates who could make a shot and a few less desperation passes because you are a rookie and thats what rookies do and you would be a good player. Hopefully some day you will be that good player that you have the potential to be.
Good job Corey Brewer for trying your damndest to see that your team is playing a real game from start to finish. Good job giving it your all. Good job playing defense when no one else will. Good job doing all the dirty work that no one else will. You are the player that I enjoy watching above all others.
Good job Ramon Sessions for being on perhaps the worst team in the league, starting behind a rookie who is not yet producing like a true PG should, and still not complaining in the slightest. Good job showing some character. You will get yours and I will be happy for you when you do.
Good job Al Jefferson for not complaining. You are not above the team and I hope you know this, but good job so far for not putting yourself above your team. Good job for not coming out publicly and blaming your injury for your poor play. Good job so far for accepting your share of the blame. Please don’t justify peoples’ comments here by doing so.
That’s all I have. I don’t know what else to say besides how disgusted I am with what has happened to this site. I enjoyed coming here because there was such good analysis and I have learned so much more about the game than I thought possible since coming here. This hasn’t been the case for a couple weeks now. I’m sure my posts have been showing it lately too. Bring back the old Canis Hoopus. A site I wanted to be a part of. A site that people would compliment when leaving their first post/response here. But most of all, support your Timberwolves and earn what they will give you a couple years down the road.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 2:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I feel like I'm the only one who still enjoys watching the Timberwolves.
When they’re down by 30 in the third quarter, I keep watching, because I like the Timberwolves and hope they’ll do well and possibly create a miracle comeback. Although I’m waiting patiently for Kevin Love comes back, I’m still being positive about the Wolves RIGHT NOW just because I’m a huge Wolves fan.
by KGMN on Nov 28, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I enjoy watching the Wolves
To be honest, I’m enjoying this year a lot more than last year. I feel like there’s reasons to be excited now. Last year, with McHale still running the show and Foye penned in as out “star point guard”, I knew we were doomed before pre-season started. We were also-rans who couldn’t even get to also-ran status because tow of our key players (Foye and Miller) had already topped out their potential and couldn’t combine to get us even 25 wins.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the passionate response.
I agree in the sense that people should stick by their teams, even in losing times, but I don’t think it’s a terrible thing to question some of the moves Kahn has made or to point out the very obvious flaws in this team. I think its okay to criticize. There are not a lot of positives right now with the team – besides the cap space, draft picks, etc. – and the on-the-court product is difficult to watch.
In my case, its difficult to watch precisely because I’m a hardcore basketball fan. I want to see my team perform well, and when they look like they did last night – like the Suns were playing their practice squad or something – it can be hard to find stuff to keep me watching. I never leave games early, but last night with the late start time and the 30 point lead at the end of 3, I did.
It doesn’t mean I’m not patient and can’t wait for the offseason to see what Kahn has in mind. It just means that I don’t want to watch my team get crushed night in and night out.
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to criticize
quite the contrary. I enjoy the thoughtful and constructive criticism that is usually the norm here. But when an entire post turns into a bunch of people complaining about the product on the floor, that’s when it get’s a little stale. If I wanted that, I would go read articles about us on Four Letter. And actually, right now the national media is more positive about us than most people here. Alvin Gentry gave us some very nice compliments after the game that most coaches wouldn’t have made. NBA.com’s ROY Race talks about Flynn and how even Jason Kidd had some issues when he first came into the NBA with the triangle he started in, but then looked much better and more natural when given free reign.
I don’t know, maybe I’m mostly just annoyed with the implied feeling in all of these posts that everyone is giving or has given up on this team already, but they will continue to come here just in case we start writing about Brandon Jennings on the regular.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I understand that and agree to a certain point
There are certain posters (Just A Fan comes to mind) who seem to come here only to criticize and that gets a little annoying. I don’t think S-n-P belongs in that group, though, and I think a lot of the posts he makes and some others make do take into account patience, positivity, etc.
I think as much as people say “you should’ve expected losing”, though, I think its also fair to say that people should expect that fans will not be happy about that losing. Some fans like to turn on their team and embrace others when losing gets to be too much for them.
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly doesn't
and I hope it doesn’t come off that way. But the posts lately have been a little disappointing. I know it’s hard to continue game after game finding something new to write about rather than the low efficiency, outrebounded on the offensive end, higher turnovers, worse passing, etc etc rinse repeat. But I’d still rather come here and see what happened again and maybe even hear about a not oft mentioned player on the other team that might look nice in a Wolves jersey come 201X. There have been some names I just haven’t seen around as much lately and I think while most of it is due to the Wolves sucking, some of it also is caused by the lack of anything interesting happening here. Fans were still coming to this site even when the Wolves were winning 20 games with no hope because it was good coverage with some nice entertainment value. Now loyal fans are becoming more and more scarce and I’m not quite sure it’s the record that is 100% to blame.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still am surprised...
at the venom shown towards Flynn on this site. All national media outlets have him anywhere from 3-5 in their rookie of the year rankings. On Canis Hoopus, the consensus is already that he’s a career sixth man. For a site about which one of the first things I noticed was the restraint from making bold, sweeping statements too early, it surprises me. Maybe that is his ceiling. But how can we say that already? And on a team so bad, isn’t his scoring one of the bright spots?
Of course he’s not running the offense smoothly. That’s because he’s played 15 games and, really, with the players around him, what would a “smoothly run” offense look like? Does our offense look great when Sessions is running it? If there’s a big improvement, then you guys have a much, much better eye for basketball than I do.
Flynn is pretty fun to watch. We gush about Brewer not giving up while being blown out, but I see the same from Flynn. The guy competes hard. And I think one of the precious few fun things to watch on this team are Flynn taking a little hop-step hesitation dribble before he blows by his man, takes contact, and hits a layup. Why don’t we appreciate that more?
by LoveTo on Nov 28, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My response...
…about Flynn is that I had him pegged as a below-average performer from before the draft. The guy had an iffy college resume to be taken that high. And yes, the offense does look a lot better with Sessions running it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fair.
Since, as you’ve said, there’s very little to write about on this team, one thing I would be interested in reading is a post about Flynn v. Sessions.
You have a better eye for basketball than me clearly, so I think it would be cool to get some specific examples or something of instances when the offense looked great under Sessions, and what would’ve been different with Flynn at the helm.
Just a suggestion, of course, but with this type of team, I figured you could use one ;)
by LoveTo on Nov 28, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm open..
…to all sorts of post suggestions at this point. that’s a good one.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's fair to question him
Especially if the status quo lingers and doesn’t trend upwards. But I’m giving him some benefit of the doubt right now considering he’s still a rookie PG and he’s got a horrible team around him.
It’s normally a position with some slow growth; most rookie PG aren’t Jennings and Lawson and most rookie PG aren’t given that much free reign. I don’t know how much of the “Rambis not playing to his strengths” excuse really holds anymore, but I’ll be interested to see. I’m definitely uneasy about the pick as compared to Jennings or others, but who isn’t? I’m interested to hear Kahn’s rationale in the future, whether Flynn blows up or disappoints.
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was ridiculous...
… when CP3 comparisons and the “stud” label were being thrown around on this website during the preseason. And now people are going nearly as far in the other extreme. If you’re ready to give up on a guy’s career (a PG, no less) on the basis of a few weeks of play, I don’t know what to tell you… I’m sick of hearing about how we should have taken Lawson or Maynor or whoever else may be trending upwards a month from now. Those guys look solid. So what? Flynn was one of the few guys from this draft who projected as a starter in this league. PGs take time to develop. Why make more out of it than that?
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Read my posts at the bottom
I thnk I’m going to put it in this week’s around the NBA update, because people are seriously way out of context when talking about Flynn right now.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are a couple reasons for the negativity
First, those who were against the Kahn “Plan” from the beginning are seeing there worst scenario play out and are very angry, and I can’t blame them – especially those paying thousands of dollars for a couple season tickets.
Second, Kahn’s two “Signature” moves to this point have produced little or nothing almost a quarter into the season. Rubio is thousands of miles away, and Flynn is not playing well. He may be fine eventually and Rubio may be a future star, but it follows the Wolves luck that of all the players Kahn didn’t chose, perhaps the two playing the best are PGs.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I applaud your passion, but...
I try to look for the positive when the Wolves play. I am grateful that our players seem to be decent human beings. The stars of some teams apparently are not. But you can’t ignore the product. It is awful. And as for being “true Wolves fans”, my family has been season ticket holders since the second year of the franchise, we are not wealthy, and we live over 100 miles away from the stadium. If you are a typical college student, then I am over twice your age. Please don’t lecture on how one is supposed to feel when Minnesota sports teams lose. My friends ask me if I cheer for the Vikings. I watch every game and I support them, but I am no face-painting freak. I hope they win the Super Bowl, but if they don’t I won’t be crushed. I did watch them lose all of those previous Super Bowls, back when I was young enough to be overly influenced by whether or not they won a stupid game. I am also a teacher who gets to see the impact of winning and losing on my students in football, volleyball, basketball, wrestling, tennis, softball, cross country and track. My students are the varsity competitors in all of those sports at the small school where I teach. I cheer for all of them. But viewing thousands upon thousands of sporting events forces perspective on you. I merely want our Wolves to entertaining and competitive. I love your passion, but nobody here can say that this team is either one of those things right now, and it looks like it might be a long long time until that happens. In the interim we have to endure the success of other teams that we may feel don’t deserve it. That is what sucks.
by ogishkemuncie on Nov 28, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry you feel the need to
break things down by age. Teachers, like elders, don’t deserve my respect. They must earn it. And more teachers should listen to the youth of the world who more often than not, are smarter than they. I’ve had one (ok more like 20) too many teachers/professors in the past who disregard logic in lieu of appearing correct. “I’m right because I’m older and I know better.” Don’t tell me that. You lost my respect for that. I’m sorry, but don’t ever pull the age card again. Use intelligence rather than status, please.
That being said, I’m not lecturing you on how to feel. That’s what your shrink is for. I’m asking you (not necessarily you, I don’t know if you have even said anything until now) not to bring endless complaints without actually adding anything to the site and the posters’ knowledge. There is a difference between being angry about your team losing and complaining about it. We’ve all had those friends who complain about everything for complaing’s sake… in my experience, people don’t usually seek that out.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm frankly staggered you'd reply in that manner.
I’m a little younger than ogishkemuncie but I understand precisely what he is saying. Age may not give you intelligence, but it certainly gives you perspective. It doesn’t mean you feel less, you just know the proper place for it.
It isn’t disloyal to point out this teams legion failings. The fact they can be described in such detail means the fans are still paying attention. For now. And that is the big thing I have taken out of the last two days of posts. When the loyal core start to waver, trouble is afoot.
Judd: "...I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and I realise that pressure points are no laughing matter.".
by Auswolf on Nov 28, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't give you perspective
everyone has perspective and saying that because you are older that your perspective is automatically correct and mine is not is downright stupid. Age might change your perspective, but it doesn’t provide you with this amazing thing that younger people do not have. I know this isn’t exactly what you are implying, but it’s what you said.
From my perspective, and yes I have one, the older you are the easier you give up? I hope that’s not what you are advocating because Brian Cardinal and Mark Madsen might have something to say about that.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he’s right, it does. I used to say stuff like you are right here. You’ll figure it out eventually, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
by museum on Nov 28, 2009 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna bother furthering this argument
because it’s going nowhere worth going. But please (and I’m not directing this at museum at all, but everyone) work on earning the respect of those that you would otherwise demand it from. Being young, I guess I get the perspective of knowing how people treat those younger than them and how often youth gets sold short. Voting, driving, drinking, smoking, etc. I could enlist in the army before I could ever have taken a drink or rent a hotel room. That’s wrong.
It’s a two way street and I know I have done nothing today to earn anyone’s respect so I’ll work on tempering this down a bit and letting some ignorant comments slide. Sorry to anyone I may have offended. Sometimes we all need a good old Red Foreman swift kick in the ass and I think we have given that to each other today. Let’s move onward to what Canis has represented in the past and will continue to represent in the future.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I didn’t mind anything in the response until a random comment about how his opinion or perspective is superior because of age got thrown in there. I guess I was staggered that something such as that would become an issue here when debating a point.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow the fall from grace of this blog has been a trainwreck but fun to watch
by roundhouse on Nov 28, 2009 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mplax w/ the worst, most ignorant, most disrespectful post I've ever seen
after he goes on his emotional “Good Job so-and-so” post lol
by roundhouse on Nov 28, 2009 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let them Develop blah blah blah blah blah
Sign Iverson. NOW.
Increase attendance, increase viewership, maybe win a game or two.
Don’t overthink. Not this board, not the organization. Just do it.
Percy Harvin is my dealer.
by y2jayjk on Nov 28, 2009 2:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
While I absolutely do NOT want to see Iverson on this team
I agree. Because when all is said and done, the team is nothing more than a business. And this business needs ticket sales and ad sales. He will at least bring in a bit. He played for Memphis so why not?! He can start at SG. It’ll be an experiment for sure and I know this won’t happen. But as of this point, I am just depressed enough about this fan base to accept it.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 2:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's no *team* in Iverson
Are you his agent? Do you get a cut?
If the Wolves are ever to become a team, you don’t bring the most selfish, ball dominant player in the league in to destroy your locker room camaraderie and on court flow.
by levi_mn on Nov 28, 2009 4:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You've clearly never seen Allen Iverson actually play.
I went to a Wolves-Nuggets game, and he was very unselfish, he made terrific passes, understood the game, and gave everyone opportunities. He’s not ball-dominant at all. He just has a bad attitude.
by KGMN on Nov 28, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
he is a little ball dominant. But he is a decent passer.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Iverson passes for the same reason Joe Johnson does
He dribbles out 20 second of the clock, then realizes he has three defenders on him and the guy next to him is unguarded.
He passes, but there’s a difference between giving up the ball and facilitating, and Iverson does not facilitate. So guess what that leaves.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, not in the game I went to.
He passed a couple times per play.
by KGMN on Nov 28, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ancient Norse Wisdom...
From the oral traditions of the Vikings in Iceland, we read:
The mind only knows what lies near the heart,
you alone know your spirit;
There is no worse sickness for the wise
than to have lost your joy in life.
Yes, this team is bad. But but it doesn’t seem like
it is hopeless or joyless. Don’t give up the joy.
by levi_mn on Nov 28, 2009 4:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
give it 10 more games..
…and the joy will have died as well. this thing is on a cliff in terms of going REALLY ugly. they are a damien wilkins shot away from being the team that is “competing” for the worst start in league history. it could get hopeless in a hurry. remember, they think they can spend free agent money during the offseason. that’s part of the plan.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Give it 20 more games
I think Love returning will be a bigger boost than many expect. The moment Jefferson tore his ACL, Love became the best player on the team. He should be back in a couple weeks. Give him 4-5 games to get back in the flow. Then judge the team starting from about game 25. I think significant improvement will be seen, not saying .500 the rest of the season, but I think they will win 35% beginning in January, and be competitive in another 35%, both numbers a big improvement from today.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree...
Not sure what our rebounding rates are without Love, but it sure looks like we are giving up a lot more second chance points (and getting a lot less ourselves) than last year. Getting Love’s rebounding back should help at least make things more competitive.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm right here with you.
I’ll be that other guy at the games when we both happen to go on the same night.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll round out the trio. I believe I'm at 91 straight games and counting
not including preseason…it’ll take more than an 8-76 record to stop me.
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Some quotes that have caught my eye.
Add the fact that one-third of Wolves games will not be aired on TV, only one guy calls the games on radio, the Strib beat is getting chopped up to a bunch of folks and the only conclusion is that Wolves coverage is shrinking rapidly.
I haven’t sung the "Wolves leave town" song in a while, but I’m getting my pipes ready once again. Shrinking coverage is the canary in the coal mine. Mark my words.
…I’m having a hard time even watching these games…let alone writing about them.
I watch from a distance, which is a double edged sword. I’m insulated and can occupy myself with other pursuits in bad times but the good times are just that little less sweet. There is nothing like being there, even when your team sucks. And the teams I follow have all sucked at one point or more in their lives.
I’ll better London to a brick that the Wolves monitor sites like these. If I was David Kahn I’d be worried. Worried because whatever planning is in place regarding coaching, the trade deadline, the draft and player development the organisation is losing ground in the hearts and minds battle. Already working off a low base from what I can tell, but slipping nonetheless.
The frustration is palpable and it
Judd: "...I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and I realise that pressure points are no laughing matter.".
by Auswolf on Nov 28, 2009 5:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Let me help write David's next fan letter
Dear Loyal Fans,
It’s becoming clear to everyone that I f’ed up big time by turnover the roster before hiring a coach to assist me in evaluating the players. While I did create some additional maneuvering room for the future, I left us a roster with significantly less talent than what I inherited. While the guys are trying hard, I simply did not provide them with enough baseline NBA talent to be competitive. My bad. I apologize to the very loyal season ticket holders who are left paying there hard earned dollars to watch this crap. Free beer on me at the next game!
My pledge going forward is to strike a better balance between winning now and winning in the future in every deal, trade, transaction, etc., that I make. I will check my ego at the door and listen more closely to the opinion of the staff to drive more informed decisions.
David “the Kahnman” Kahn
by Just A Fan on Nov 28, 2009 8:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
He inherited most of that roster flexibility and said as much when he took the job.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unwatchable ...
I have been to two games in person this year (my brother has season tickets), and I have watched bits and pieces of all of the remaining games, save one. I will no longer do so. They will have to prove to me that they are serious about competing before I watch. Its better for my health. Kahn has gambled and, so far, has lost big time. I don’t think he in any way realized what his actions would do to the Wolves’ small loyal following. Shame on him. Shame on Glen Taylor for giving the keys to someone so rash. I am not someone who will turn to a different team to salve my NBA fix. When my team is dead, the league is dead. I will turn to high school basketball or Gophers or SCSU basketball instead. When this travesty is over, I’ll be back. I am a loyal fan, but I have watched the Wolves for their entire time in Minnesota and never felt as disheartened as I do by this team. And this has not happened by necessity to the team, it has happened by the conscious choices of one man. There were plenty of other options.
by ogishkemuncie on Nov 28, 2009 9:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
Remember – they had highly regarded GM Candidates like Dennis Lindsay, Randy Pfund, and Tom Penn – and after talking with Taylor the candidates would almost immediately remove themselves from consideration – which was weird.
Taylor then found his young dynamo, David Kahn, a former minor league owner who left the NBADL in a string of lawsuits. Oh Kahn, is a protege of Donnie Walsh – we can all see the mass success he’s having in NYC (I know, I know – Blame Isiah)
Kahn has made some minor good salary cap moves and also made us the league laughingstock in the draft. And he’s taken several trips to Spain, which is a nice country to visit
by Son of Gerald Green on Nov 28, 2009 9:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've got to call you out on something, brother:
You’ve made exactly the same point on previous points (except for the trips to Spain comment.) I think this debate is going around in circles.
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Besides Pfund...
None of those other guys have GM experience. The only difference between Kahn, Penn, and Lindsey is that Kahn left the Pacers to be closer to his wife who has business roots in another city and was out of the league for years.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 28, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Few Questions
1. Who is to say that Ramon Sessions isn’t the long-term answer at the 1? I get Jonny Flynn was taken 6 in the draft. But he can’t facilate a NBA offense at this time.
2. What is Big Al’s trade value seriously at this time? I doubt you’d get another young proven starter due to health issues and defensive issues. I know I’ve posted on this before but this blog probably overrates his value around the league. I know the Devin Harris trade was brought up as a standard. But I wouldn’t exactly call Devin Harris anything more than medicore.
by Jose Cordoba on Nov 28, 2009 9:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
He was an All-Star you know
I’d take him for Al Jeff in one second.
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Devin Harris
Carried a Nets Team with Vince Carter and Brook Lopez to the Mid 30’s in wins. This isn’t an example of impressive PG play. Compare this to the NETS teams that Jason Kidd carried to the NBA Finals.
Harris has been pretty bad so far this year- as his team is 0-16 (In Fairness they’re 0-6) with him in the Line-Up.
I just don’t think he elevates the game of players around him. If he was on the Wolves instead of Al- they’d still probably be 1-15. This is the issue with Flynn- his stats look fine- he doesn’t run the offense that well. At 6-0 tall this is an issue. He’s got some NBA skills at the same time- I’m not sure he ever gets this part of the game.
When people say he’s scoring 14 PPG- I say “Who Cares”. He takes a high volume of shots (He’s not an offensive force that opens things up for others). If he took 4-5 more points a game and averaged 20 my opinion would not change. In fact- he’s been a downgrade from Bassy up to this point. Although it’s very possible-better shooters would change my mind.
by Jose Cordoba on Nov 28, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we talk about how long it took...
Steve Nash’s game to develop? Do you remember what it was like to watch him in his first several years? Or what about Chauncey B? He was a total mess for years. Then, since you invoke his name, let’s look at Telfair. How long did he have to play before he finally began to look like he “got it”? And this is a guy with a low ceiling. How is it that we are able to dismiss a guy’s game after three weeks? How?
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flynn takes a high volume of shots. Thank god.
Who’s he going to pass it to? Pavlovic? Brewer? Pecherov? Hollins? Ellington? I’m impressed as hell that he’s hitting 43% of his shots.
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The nice thing to see
is that most of his shots he creates for himself. Which is good and bad. Personally I think it’s good because we will eventually need someone besides Big Al who can do that. On the other hand, pairing this with a low assist rate for a PG and it would seem as if he isn’t quite fitting in to the team very well right now.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
RE
The issue isn’t that Jonny Flynn couldn’t possibly improve. I remember making no statement remotely similar. What I’ve said is I doubt he has the natural PG instincts to be an Upper-Level PG in the NBA.
He’s got some definite weaknesses in his game that I doubt are easily fixed. As SNP pointed out he doesn’t have some sterling College Track Record that guranatees success. I question his shooting, his size, and his facilation ability. I never said he was a worthless player only that he probably projects as a Combo-Guard/6th Man down the line. I’ve acknowledged his skill at getting to the rim (Which Makes him valuable) .
by Jose Cordoba on Nov 28, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Those are assessments of Flynn's potential that seem fair and just
Much more evenhanded than “Who Cares?” I would add that it is also much too soon to proclaim that Flynn “doesn’t run the offense that well”, partly due to the fact that this team doesn’t have much of an offense. And to go back to an earlier comment of mine, how soon did Telfair learn how to run an offense?
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And as far as not having...
“some sterling College Track Record that guarantees success”, I was mighty impressed when Flynn played 67 minutes and went 16-for-16 from the stripe in leading his team in knocking off top-ranked UConn. Yessir, mighty impressed.
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Best case I think Al is one of about three pieces
in a blockbuster trade. He is the name the receiving team can use to justify getting rid of a player to save money and get picks.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I dispise how some people have given up there fan hood. So when they are doing bad you are gonna forget about them, and when they are doing good, you will hop back on the bandwagon? This wat i call fair-weather fans. For all those people calling FLynn a bust, are wack. The guy is averaging 14.3 ppg in an offensed designed to get the ball out of his hands. If Rambis gave Flynn free rein, Flynn would definetly be averaging 18-20 ppg. Second thing that i love about Flynn is that no matter how bad he does in the first three quarters, he always seems to find a way play like an alstar in the 4th quarter.
One thing that many people havn’t noticed is that, during the month of November, the wolves had a really tough schedule.We will have played the Nuggets 2 times, the Blazers 3 times, and the Suns 2 times by the end of this month. Not to mention tough games against the Rockets, Mavs, and Celtics. All of that in the month of November.
Next, i will rant about all of the people that are doubting Khan. Well, if you look at it, we will have nearly $20,000,000 in Cap Space and potentially three picks in next years draft. After that we will still have a chance to get excited about a rookie in 2011 even though we wont have a first round pick. This team has a bright future, the only thing is that when a young player sees this many consecutive losses, it weighs down on them, all this team needs is one win, and i think they will build off of that, but we can’t stop supporting, we got cheer this young group of players on as hard as we can.
by AT-360 on Nov 28, 2009 10:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's bullshit
Most of the people who are talking like this right now have been following this thing since the Dome (count me in as one of those…I was at the first game there). This is not fair weather fandom. This is getting tired of paying for the same damn thing. This is awful basketball and there’s no way around it. This is re-re-re-re-building for folks who have re-re-re-rebuilt enough already. This team has the potential for a bright future. They don’t have one in the bag yet and frustration with the way things are going is not fair weather fandom. That’s bullshit.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also..
…don’t forget that this team had a bright future on the eve of the 1999 Draft…a much brighter one than we’re talking about right now. Yeah, Kahn has all of those things in his back pocket and he’s done what he should have done on that front but this is unwatchable and it may get to the point where they lose any ability to sign anyone and that their best player may jump ship. We can stop supporting. Things that require unconditional support for survival should scare you.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't do it often...
..but I’m putting a moratorium on the BS fair weather fan stuff. I completely get where this attitude is coming from and there are numerous other ways to dress it up but dropping the fair weather fan card on people you don’t know is a sports site equivalent of questioning someone’s manhood (it’s the best example I can come up with). Chances are that the people reading and writing on this site have legitimate issues and interest in the team and that basic fact should be taken for granted with everyone. We view this site as a pub where people can come in and talk about the team and let the discussion go where it may. The fact that you are in the pub should make it obvious that you have interest in the team and wish it well. Does that mean you have to be happy with it? Of course not, but we’re all in this virtual pub for one reason: because of our interest in the team and we’re not going to question the motives of whoever decides to join us. Fair or not, that’s the rule from here on out. Enjoy the virtual beer and conversation but nobody is not at home here except for those who say that some are.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While I know my post was probably partially to blame for this
I think this comes off as being a little too harsh on the OP here. So I will write this here to accept some of the blame while not leaving AT-360 out to dry.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also while I'm here
I should apologize if my posts do come off a little abrasive. I’m passionate and sometimes my debating strategy emphasizes light sarcasm to make a point. I enjoy arguing and agreeing with people here and I hope it never becomes personal. If it has with anyone, I apologize and I appreciate everyone except for 2 people who post here. This message isn’t to them, with them it is personal. I kid.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you. I have defended this team despite all the KFAN, Souhan, ESPN-induced negativity for years. This has to be a two-way street between the team and fans, and I believe it was more-so in the McHale regime to this point despite errors and flaws. Say what you want about McHale, but he never put the fans in the situation of having to watch a team or season where the franchise was tanking the whole year.
I am really struggling with it. I watch hoops because I love it, and the main part of that is competition. It’s not for the virtual monday-morning GM piece, that’s just an aside or substitute for winning when they don’t have the ammo. If you eliminate competition and trying to win from the game, what is left is ugly.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I should add that I don’t know if they are tanking the season or just inept. Or a mix of the two. Neither is reassuring.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was curious by your use of the "T" word...
I honestly believe that Kahn thought we would be at least a titch more competitive than we have been so far. The guy who was pouring the Kool-Aid probably overestimated the impact that guys like Hollins and Pavlovic are going to have. And then a player like Love goes down and…. Phewwwwww… stinko
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's an interesting question..
….about whether or not assembling a roster like this with an eye to the 2010 off season qualifies as tanking. is it on such a grand scale that it’s not considered tanking?
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You just hit it
This has been obvious tanking from the day Kahn was hired, or perhaps the day McHale was removed from the front office (not defending McHale, but his removal was the first step in the tear down).
The “Grand Scale” comment is where you have figured it out. They made this so big people have missed out on the grand plan. I have posted for months the Taylor & Co. had #1 priority for this season being saving money. I have also defended them since they have shown a willingness to spend in the past. If people remember, the other GM candidates mentioned earlier all passed on the job, and rumors were because they did not believe “winning” soon was a priority, which leaves few other priorities than saving money.
Second part of the plan was getting reading for the future. The plan is to tank on such a grand scale that a Mark Madsen in April performance is not required for the team to be a high lottery pick in June.
Third part of the grand scale plan was putting a three or four year timeframe on the plan. Remember, Kahn has always mentioned using cap space in 2011, not 2010 like many posters are assuming will happen.
Grand Scale exactly.
Thank heavens the Vikings got Favre to serve as a distraction until hopefully late January if not February, when we can all start discussing who the Wolves should draft in June 2011.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Tanking
McHale felt very strongly that the nucleus of a perennial playoff teams was already on the roster. All it needed was to be supplement by a couple of things (a big 2 who could score and a defensive oriented 5) and BOOM it would happen. Frankly, I agree.
Kahn felt totally different. He saw saw 2 players (Al and Love) that could be complimentary players on championship team. He felt a need to make over the team. That is why McHale is not back even though Taylor deep down wanted him back.
It’s not tanking. But it was, in my opinion, a naive view by Kahn. While we flamed out in the playoffs, I really enjoyed watching Flip’s teams. Competitive and fun to watch every night.
Can MN really build an NBA championship team? I am seriously doubtful. We don’t have an owner who is going to lavish spend money. (I am OK with that) We have a less than desirable climate and a lack of mystic to make us a free agent’s #1 choice. Not going to get many star players coming to us. That is a couple of big strikes against us in the way the NBA works today.
I guess I would see us being regular playoff participants as our ceiling which is far different from Kahn who sees championship only. Maybe once in a while, catch lightning in a bottle (like Utah) and be more. But as much as I enjoyed the WCF run, I would give it up for more competitive play year after year.
by Just A Fan on Nov 28, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If not tanking
How do they explain starting a season w/o a legit starting SG? While I am hardly a QRICH fan, he could have helped this team, instead he was traded for Blount to save money. Read between the lines and you can’t help but see saving money was a priority. In addition, a team was put together that had no chance of winning 30 games, even with a healthy Love. If they weren’t tanking this season QRICH would still be here, and they would have used the full MLE to bring in a SG/SF who could have helped win games.
I’m not criticizing the team, I’d rather see this approach than a 35 win team stuck in neutral for 5 years. BTW, I think Mike Miller is more than showing why he was traded.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right - so if it's not tanking, it's either lack of competence or a casual indifference to winning or losing.
No 3-point shooter. Damien Wilkins and Nathan Jawai getting minutes. Flynn starts over Sessions. 12 guys playing a lot of nights. The FO and coach don’t seem that bothered by it all.
by Punisher#8 on Nov 28, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a league in which a championship should be considered realistic
Like the NFL or NHL. The Twins should be proud of their track record when they can’t compete for free agents, the Gophers hoops team and football team should be glad to get to the NCAAs or a bowl because a metropolitan college campus in a pro sports town is a recruiting disadvantage, but the NBA has numerous potential paths to success.
The Wolves of the early decade had a limited ceiling because of mismanagement and a coaching staff that never fully maximized the strengths of one of the top 50 players in NBA history, not because they couldn’t attract free agents (they didn’t have cap space anyway). As for Taylor, I don’t think he’ll be afraid to pay the lux tax if they’re title-worthy because he’s done it before.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 29, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a moratorium is wrong
Better to let people be idiots and reply to them than shut them off. You might even educate one or two as to what a fair weather fan really is. Unfortunately, these with some of these posts you are just seeing why Sid Hartman is still apparently so popular with a segment of the sports public.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Before we get carried away with Brandon Jennings and bashing Flynn, let's note a few things
1) Jennings isn’t more talented than Flynn. Or Lawson, or Collison, or Holiday, or Curry, maybe not even more talented than Maynor. He just has the most opportunity.
2) Jennings hasn’t exactly been spectacular every night. Ok, 55 points is damn impressive. But in the last three games, he’s averaging 12ppg on 28% shooting. He scored just 12 points on 21 shots against the Spurs, just 14 points on 15 shots against the Hornets, and was a complete non-factor in last night’s blowout loss to the Thunder, unless you count getting lit up by Westbrook being a factor.
3) The Bucks’ record has as much, if not more, to do with Andrew Bogut as it does Jennings. Bogut has been out almost two weeks now and the Bucks are sub-.500 without him (2-3) Also factoring in is the absence of defensive wonder Luc Ricard Mbah A Moute.
So cool it. Flynn was a great pick at #6 and will prove it when he gets through this learning curve and we acquire real talent for him to play with.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 10:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't give a damn what Jennings is doing...
But Jonny Flynn is a freaking train wreck to watch. Talk about small sample sizes and charisma all you want, but his upside is Bassy. And that is f’ing depressing…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flynn is already 10x the scoring force Bassy was
Telfair has never come close to averaging 15ppg. It’s a ridiculous comparison.
The playmaking is raw, true, but let’s keep in mind the system he’s in. The only point guard to ever average more than 5apg in the triangle was Gary Payton at 5.5…think about that. Gary Payton, one of the best point guards of all time, with a career average of over 8apg up to that year only tallied 5.5apg. And his scoring dropped from 20ppg to 14ppg.
The triangle is just not a point guard system. That’s what Flynn is dealing with, and that’s why he doesn’t look as good as his talent would suggest he would.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To that list you can add Jason Kidd
who is also one of the best PGs, and certainly one of the best passing PGs.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kidd is kind of a scary example for Wolves fans...
….I’m working on a post about his experiment with the Triangle way back when.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm definitely excited to read
And while I don’t think Flynn and Kidd are remotely similar as players, they were both PGs in a system that didnt play to their advantages, so some nice information should still come out of that.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the worry isn't with flynn...
…it’s with the potential kidd clone over in spain.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Think Rubio would be doing much better in the triangle
Euro ball is a poor man’s triangle as it is, and Rubio is a much more heady player than Flynn
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think..
…we should be kind of horrified that they are talking about putting one of the world’s greatest (if you believe the hype) open court players in the triangle. pick and roll and open-court transition…that’s what rubio is about.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a serious question
Do you really believe Rambis will be coaching this team if and when Rubio gets here in two or three years?
If Rambis is still here, people will no longer be questioning the triangle because something will be making sense. If the triangle blows the next two season, Rambis will be gone.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about in said post...
Defining what the nefarious “Triangle” is? Most people here want to blame it for our offensive woes, but the truth is that we run the “Classic” version much less than people think.
In Rambis’ offense, it’s a bit more of an abstract offensive approach than an actual set of motions…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what the triangle is
It’s a set of motions that positions players on the floor based on how the defense sets up. It reverses the guard and forward roles by placing the forward at the top of the key and the guard in the corners. That’s why players like Scottie Pippen would regularly lead the team in assists. After that initial spacing, the ball is swung in a triangle or around the arc until either a shot is available or a driving lane opens up.
For someone who says we aren’t running a “classic” triangle, you neither seem to even know what the triangle is, nor realize that there is no “classic” versus “adjusted” version of it.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
there are variations. I don’t think it is really split between classic and adjusted, but there are variations of it.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It only varies based on who's one the floor
What would be considered “classic triangle”? The way it was run with the Bulls, as a swingman, pseudo-Euroball system? Or the triple post system run in LA?
Ultimately it’s always set up the same way. The “variations” people see in it are intentional flexibilities built into the system to accommodate who’s on the floor at any given moment. The Bulls didn’t operate inside out like the Lakers did. They didn’t have Shaq or Gasol. But Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley still set up in the same places Shaq did….they simply made different decisions with the ball because they were different players.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point here...
When I say Classic, I’m talking Triple post with a shooter in the corner…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are different teams besides
Phil Jackson led teams who utilize their own variations of the triangle. Rambis has even said he is altering it to fit his own vision of how it should run. Obviously the idea is still the same, it’s just the little things that happen before you get there that make it oh so slightly different. And yes, most of the variations are because of available talent, but there are a couple variations based off of coaching ideology.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What we're doing
Is running what Rambis calls a “Live Ball” version of the triangle that emphasizes the PG in a one-guard front. They started implementing it on the Lakers last year. So in that case, it should work better with our wealth of PGs
And we can’t repeat enought that it’s not their main offense and isn’t run nearly as often as people likely think. I almost see it as more of a teaching tool; an expand-your-game, stretch-your-comfort-zone tool that will hopefully improve the players down the road.
This SI article might help a little as far as seeing what we’re doing with it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/arash_markazi/11/05/wolves/index.html
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm…Is Rex Winter (or Winters) Tex’s evil twin?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 29, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only way to know
Is if he has a thin, curly mustache. I’ll get on it.
Also, I looked Tex up on Wikipedia, and there are very few names that match worse with the moniker “Tex” than “Morice Fredrick Winter”.
by nja700 on Nov 29, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I respect you and your opinions...
But do we really have to do this? Arguing over semantics? We run a lot more PnR and Ball Screen stuff than people want to admit…because they want to blame our offensive woes on the “Triangle.”
How many times do we actually station a guard in the corner like the “Classic” triangle dictates? Not much
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention...
How many possessions where we are a Bizarro SSOL version of the Suns where we jack up a terrible, early shot before we’ve even set up…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't seen us run hardly any pick and roll
That would require Jefferson to…y’know….roll.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, though...
When Kidd was rumored to be traded to the Lakers, Phil Jackson indicated that it wouldn’t have been a problem. Kidd’s always been something of a jerk and was fighting for alpha dog status as a young player with two me-first scorers who were also fighting over a girl. That situation was the definition of dysfunctional, and it’s not clear how Jim Cleamons’ coaching ability compares with Rambis.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 28, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll start the discussion with some facts
The Mavs finished 24-58 that season but were 8-14 with Kidd before he was traded. He had a 41% assist percentage and averaged about 9 per game (his career average). He only played 22 games in that system. How come his “failure” in that system isn’t chalked up to small sample size? His eFG% wasn’t very good, but he wasn’t a good shooter at that time anyway. He looked more dominant in the PG-as-maestro role in Phoenix and New Jersey, but it’s inconclusive whether he was really that much less effective because 22 games isn’t a representative sample.
As for Cleamons, how much of a role does bringing in Don Nelson as GM play in this? Nelson obviously is significantly different than Phil Jackson and blew things up right away, which obviously doesn’t help a young coach. In the span of a year, he gave up Kidd, Jackson, and Mashburn and ended up with only Michael Finley and Shawn Bradley to show for it long-term.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 28, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can disagree if you want...
But to call the comparison ridiculous is…well…ridiculous. If you’re a stat-head, look at the numbers. They’re strikingly similar so far, except for what I think is THE key PG stat. Bassy’s career Assist/TO is 2.5/1, Flynn’s is 1/1. The rest of the Per 36 numbers aren’t very different, aside from Flynn’s Points (17.7 to 12.1).
If you wanna argue “potential”, then put on your “scout” hat. How many times has Bassy tripped over his own feet per game? How many passes to no one per game? Right now, Flynn is a big bundle of energy going nowhere.
It wouldn’t agggravate me so bad if he was getting the 15-20 back-up minutes he deserves. Sessions is such a superior player, it’s not even close. Say whatever you want about McHale, but he did one thing right: he made Kevin Love earn his minutes. I wish Kurt Rambis would do the same with Jonny.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many times has Bassy averaged 15ppg on 44% shooting?
Crunch those stats and tell me what you come up with
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because being a PG...
Is all abour scoring…nothing else.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like the double standard people accused me of last night
When I pointed out Sessions didn’t even have one assist all game
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He must have been passing...
To Corey Brewer
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flynn tallied 6 assists last night
We were scoring. 95 points is above average for an NBA game.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not against the Suns...
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't make sense though
Sessions only needs to do one or the other because he isn’t a rookie who was taken above Jennings…
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m confused. Aren’t you arguing that Flynn’s upside is Bassy, yet you’re discounting the fact that Flynn is, statistically, already a much better scorer because you don’t want scoring from your PG? I don’t see how that line of logic supports the idea that Flynn is remotely similar to Bassy.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Nov 28, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The similarity...
Is that they’re both undersized, fast as hell, and defensively challenged. And incapable of utilizing the asset of speed…for different reasons.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Lord of the Rings is the same book as
the Twilight series because they are similar in length and they are both books which a lot of people have read.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you think Flynn is defensively challeneged, you must be watching a different player
He is, by all accounts, the best defender of any of the point guards in this draft
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trying hard...
And playing actual defense are two different things. He’s aggressive, but other PG’s blow by him fairly easily. He tries to go over screens, but almost always gets rubbed off, which puts us in a bad position in PnR’s. When he doesn’t release on the break, he stands around and doesn’t block out or hit the boards.
Check the tape from last night for a perfect example. Is he better than Foye? Yes…simply because he tries hard…not much of an endorsement.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is absolutely false
Holiday and Collison went into the draft with reputations as better defenders, and both have shown better defensive abilities thus far, even in limited minutes. Rubio is a better defender as mentioned. I’d imagine Flynn has nothing on Maynor or Curry. Lack of defense was one of the main reasons I was skeptical on Flynn coming in. He played exclusively zone in college. He has not shown great on ball defense this year, and will have a lot of work to do to overcome his lack of height. He has not yet mastered the skill of working through ball screens.
by dropstep on Nov 28, 2009 11:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You might as well be comparing TJ Ford and Nate Robinson if those are the criteria you use. At least pick someone whose game remotely resembles his stylistically if you’re going to put a ceiling on the kid..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Nov 28, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The team Kahn inherited wasn’t the Showtime Lakers, but it was a team that proved it could compete and win NBA games when healthy. That’s a start. There was also a favorable cap situation and numerous draft picks to work with. What Kahn did was an unconsionable slap in the face to season ticket holders. He traded away a pair of good players to get another pick in the draft that he proceeded to botch beyond belief with the idea that his smug “trust me” press releases will soften the blow.
Fans pay hard earned money to see a team compete. So to put an abysmal product on the floor and then tell your loyal base that getting blown out night after night is the price you pay for “assets” and “flexibility” is just a load of crap. We’re not merely talking about losing while the team retools. We’re talking about an epically bad team that fans are being asked to support out of blind faith in a man with zero track record at rebuilding.
If the draft, where the Wolves were sitting very pretty, was any indicator at all of this man’s ability to judge talent and effectively use leverage, be scared. Be very scared. Kahn is a disaster— a classic narcisist who seems prone to wheel and deal for the sake of wheeling and dealing.
by SFJ on Nov 28, 2009 10:59 AM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
We don't know that yet
Save this for after Kahn has cashed in our capital, because the moves he’s made so far were ones we needed to make.
by Oceanary on Nov 28, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We haven't seen all there is to see yet
And really, would you rather trust McHale to make all these decisions? Or the Triangle of Idiocy? I’ll take my chances on PBO.
by BDavige on Nov 28, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The team Kahn inherited wasn’t the Showtime Lakers, but it was a team that proved it could compete and win NBA games when healthy. That’s a start. There was also a favorable cap situation and numerous draft picks to work with. What Kahn did was an unconsionable slap in the face to season ticket holders. He traded away a pair of good players to get another pick in the draft that he proceeded to botch beyond belief with the idea that his smug “trust me” press releases will soften the blow.
Fans pay hard earned money to see a team compete. So to put an abysmal product on the floor and then tell your loyal base that getting blown out night after night is the price you pay for “assets” and “flexibility” is just a load of crap. We’re not merely talking about losing while the team retools. We’re talking about an epically bad team that fans are being asked to support out of blind faith in a man with zero track record at rebuilding.
If the draft, where the Wolves were sitting very pretty, was any indicator at all of this man’s ability to judge talent and effectively use leverage, be scared. Be very scared. Kahn is a disaster— a classic narcisist who seems prone to wheel and deal for the sake of wheeling and dealing.
by SFJ on Nov 28, 2009 11:02 AM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
What's interesting to me...
is that if we were 5-11, Kahn would be a patient, intelligent guy sticking to a long-term plan.
by LoveTo on Nov 28, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep the faith?
The team Kahn inherited wasn’t the Showtime Lakers, but it was a team that proved it could compete and win NBA games when healthy. That’s a start. There was also a favorable cap situation and numerous draft picks to work with. What Kahn did was an unconsionable slap in the face to season ticket holders. He traded away a pair of good players to get another pick in the draft. He botched that draft beyond belief and then traded away two useful bench players for a couple xtra mil so he could then sign a backup PG who is arguably worse than the cheaper player he jettisoned in the first place.
The idea that his smug “trust me” press releases will soften the blow is an insult. Fans pay hard earned money to see a team compete. So to put an abysmal product on the floor and then tell your loyal base that getting blown out night after night is the price you pay for “assets” and “flexibility” is just asinine. We’re not merely talking about losing while the team retools. We’re talking about a wretched, epically bad team that fans are being asked to support out of blind faith in a man with zero track record but who David Stern and Donnie Walsh say is smart.
If the draft, where McHale had the the Wolves sitting pretty before the Foye-Miller trade, was any indicator at all of this man’s ability to judge talent and effectively use leverage, be scared. Be very scared.
Kahn is a disaster— a classic narcisist who would rather play than do his homework.
by SFJ on Nov 28, 2009 11:15 AM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
We get it.
Do you have to post it three times?
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want a post of all positives on the Timberwolves and nothing else, no sarcasm.
by KGMN on Nov 28, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think that would
be a post entirely about assets and nothing about current play.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ummmmm
I’m drawing a blank to be honest. Here goes though
Flynn has shown some signs
Brewer should be a positive contributor when surrounded by better players and when his usage rate goes down.
Big Al has shown some resilience to being on such a bad team so far and his play seems to be improving little by little.
Kevin Love’s injury is being treated appropriately and he didn’t come back too early like he wanted. This means it shouldn’t become a chronic injury and he will hopefully come back and reverse those rebounding numbers (along with an increasingly healthy Big Al)
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Umm...positives about the Timberwolves...
- I think Mike and Natalie are doing a nice job
- Funnel Fries are the shiznit
- I caught one of the free t-shirts yesterday
umm…
- Jason Hart sure wears nice suit coats to games.
- Shout out to my season ticket rep, Carrie Schmid, who does nice work.
That’s a start…
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike and Natalie?
Did they replace Wally’s brother?
Congrats on the tee
I’d also like to give a shoutout to Scott McKone. Don’t know if he is still around, but he did a nice job when I was able to make it to more games and bought more game packages.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just kidding. Actually, there have been some positives...
I thought Nathan Jawai was incapable of playing in the NBA, but he’s actually put in some good minutes so far, and while he is raw, I think there is potential there.
Al Jefferson’s post moves have been coming back a little bit. He still needs to pass more often, but his post game hasn’t deteriorated too much.
Hollins seems to be improving from an IQ standpoint.
I, like most people, love Brewer’s defense and hustle and wish he could put it together on the offensive end.
by TimAllen on Nov 28, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we were one call away from beating the celtics...
…this team CAN compete.
by davechisholm on Nov 28, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's one
We have not been torched for 52 by Chuck Hayes
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's the rub...
…I think we talked about it way back before the Golden State game. There are good things in theory. I’ll put up a thanksgiving style “I’m thankful for” post about the team and people can add to it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
I want to hear the tag line for the Christmas post.
Hopefully it will involve NO gifting us a player named Chris Paul?
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It will go up around 2
…which should be enough time for everyone to let their negative thoughts be known down in this post.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've almost finished reading the post
it has actually been fun/interesting to read. A lot of gut wrenching going on.
by Rumblebee on Nov 28, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True. Actually...
this may have been one of the most fascinating threads I’ve read on the sites, for a completely different reason than most threads on this site that are fascinating.
This whole thing feels like a neat social microcosm. There’s been some unrest on the site for a while now, people are pissed about either the team sucking or everyone else being pissed. And now, finally, we bottom out, the cards get laid face-up on the table, and everyone vents. Then, hopefully, with that out of the way, we move on.
I’m likin’ the group-therapy session vibe going on.
by LoveTo on Nov 29, 2009 2:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed...
…i was kind of hoping the group therapy angle would work.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 29, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The group therapy was cathartic...
… okay, maybe a little chippy at times, but that was mostly driven by honestly diverging opinions (and a healthy measure of frustration.) It’s refreshing to see such a wide variety of opinions about the current direction of the Wolves.
by nextmove on Nov 29, 2009 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good call on the K-Love glasses
I got a pair at the game last night and wore them for a while, but I felt like they were messing with my ability to watch the game. Then I looked down and saw him wearing them and felt like less of a man. He had them on the whole game!
Other thoughts:
I’m with Mplax. I don’t like losing, but I enjoy watching the Wolves no matter what. in 12 minutes of play. What would happen if we played him all 48?
-This team has no spacing. Half the time we post up Al, we don’t even have guys waiting behind the three point line. It makes it easy to double him, and he doesn’t even have the option to pass out of it.
-Ryan Hollins nearly lost a rebound to Goran Dragic at one point. He’ll be a lousy rebounder forever.
-Brian Cardinal, once again, had a positive +/
-Earl Clark is really tall, a physical specimen, and apparently doesn’t miss.
-3 person dancing contests with a little kid going last will never not be won by the little kid. The crowd was so delighted by his sprinkler dance that they awarded him a 28 disc set of The Sopranos on DVD. Great prize to give to a ten year old!
by John Doe on Nov 28, 2009 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying this is the only factor...
Let me say this as many times as I can, because the folks at TWolvesBlog apparently didn’t get it: I’m not implying that the schedule is the main reason they’ve been playing so badly. I’m not excusing any of the other factors that have played a role in their start, because there are obviously other things under their control that they haven’t done.
But the schedule is at least a small factor. It can’t be forgotten that they laid an egg for 3 quarters against the Nets and still won or that they played tight games on the road against the Clips twice. To this point, they’ve had the 5th-toughest schedule, and only one team in the top 5 is over .500 right now. They’ve only played one sub-.500 team at home so far. And they’ve made more trips to the west coast this month than they will for the rest of the season.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 28, 2009 12:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hey
maybe Love will come back just in time for the schedule to get a little easier and we will all give him credit for the turn around when in reality its partially scheduling… Oh how ironic that would be.
Gotta agree though, the schedule hasn’t been a pretty one. But is it just me, or is the entire schedule getting tougher over the last few years? It seems as if the talent level in the NBA is at an all-time high. I mean, how often do you need three, not just allstars, but superstars to win a championship?
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Worse than the Expansion Club
I took the attitude at the beginning of the season that this club was going to be like the first Wolves club — the Musselman Maulers. There wasn’t going to be much talent here, but they were going to work hard and try to build something. Rambis was a guy that would have fit right into that club. It wasn’t pretty ball — but those guys won 22 games (and 29! the second year) with Tony Effing Campbell as their best player. And there were tons of games that they were in right to the end. Those guys were just the greatest collection of cast offs and misfits, ever. I LOVED Tod Murphy. Who WAS Tod Murphy? How come his mother didn’t know how to spell Todd?
There was no one on that club with talent level anywhere close to BAJ’s talent level. Hell, if they would have had Jefferson, Musselman would have beat on him until he played defense and they would have won 40 games. Just look at that roster. Pathetic! And yet, they were a middle of the pack defensive club (15 of 27 Def Eff). That club was infinitely more interesting than this club. Yep, there were no real building blocks on it. Yep, they probably shouldn’t have hired “Win at all Costs” Musselman to coach a first year expansion club. But, goddamnit, it was fun to watch them.
This is worse. We have a guy in Jefferson who is probably just below All-Star caliber and another in Love who might be right there, too. But, what else do we have? Future draft picks? Cap space? Those guys are not suiting up.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
by SBG on Nov 28, 2009 1:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I watched every televised game...
of the first two seasons too, but I can’t imagine going back to watch a game being grinded out by Roth, Murphy, Lowe, Lohaus, etc. I actually liked watching Sam I Am, Campbell and Ty Corbin. But no, that would be like a team of Madsen, Cardinal, Ollie and a couple of D-Leaguers scrapping around. No thanks.
by nextmove on Nov 28, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Al Jefferson is not quite to
just below all-star caliber right now. If we had a decent backup, I think Al would actually be hurting this team. But instead we have Jawai so Jefferson is still better than the alternative. Not an allstar this year by any means though. Hopefully he will get that back, but I don’t think this team can be judged on what Al could do if he were healthy and what we would be if we had Love so far this year. That being said, we are terrible and something needs to change. I think it starts with Al. Even before he gets “healthy” again.
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Al has been shocking so far this year...
I know coming back from an injury takes time, so I’m not endorsing doing anything rash…YET. But having the other team’s big guy go off on you EVERY NIGHT is getting ridiculous. Couple that with him just being a generally poor fit for the stated preferred style of play, and I think he’s trade bait eventually.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA. FAIRWEATHER FANS!
Ban me from this site, I don’t care. When this team is ressurrected to NBA prominence, I’m gonna be the one saying that I supported them even when they were terrible—which it no doubt is right now. I’m a true supporter—you all will be here when they’re winning, but until then, what, you’ll just complain? Khan has been here less than 6 months and you’re calling for his head?! That’s asinine, you can’t turn a freaking Jr High basketball team around in 6 months, let alone a pro franchise. And you can’t tell me they’re not trying to win, they just suck. If you can’ stand to watch them suck, then you don’t deserve to watch them when they’re good. I still believe and I will wait until the end of 2010-11 season to make a judgement on Khan’s success (at the earliest).
by SF on Nov 28, 2009 1:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
we've never kicked anyone out of the bar..
….because everyone knows the drunken a-hole when they see him and that’s punishment enough by itself.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 28, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh-Huh
1. Isn’t the defintion of “Fairweather Fan” someone who only follows a team when it’s good. I don’t think anyone who posts here now is Fairweather or Bandwagon.
2. If this team isn’t allowed to have fans that are skeptical of the current direction. When the Wolves turn it around they’ll be the Kansas City Wolves. What do we have at games seriously 6,000 people, TV ratings are horrible, and they don’t even have a Radio Color Guy or Pre-Game Show. So how many people in the state of Minnesota even really care about the Wolves (It’s probably less than 25,000)
3. This team’s January stretch was miles better than anything seen this year. If you look at this team’s PLUS/Minus numbers approaching -10 per 48 makes you a terrific player with this group.
by Jose Cordoba on Nov 28, 2009 1:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Rubio and Barcelona...
On NBA Network right now
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 1:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Only caught the last 8 minutes or so...
But the kid looked pretty good.
On offense, he did a good job breaking half-court and full-court traps. Had a very aggressive defender on him, and he dribbled circles around him. Penetrated and found an open man to hit jumpers a couple of times. Hit a very tough 18 footer with a hand in his face.
On D, he looks like a gambler. Barca was playing a bit of a matchup zone. He knocked one pass away for a steal. On another play, he went to double down low (for reasons unknown) on a guy that didn’t have the ball, and gave up a wide open 3.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Nov 28, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to read a fanpost about this
if you picked any of these up, you should include them, I’m sure others would love to hear about it.
Did you notice any offensive sets that show he might be good in the triangle?
Any flashy passes?
Were his passes easy to catch (on target rather than near target) and going to people who were paying attention (yeah that mostly falls on the receiver, but it’s a two way street)?
Did he play good man defense when he wasn’t gambling on the passes?
Good help defense apart from the ill-advised double?
Did his hair have proper flow?
Was he clean shaven that I should consider buying the razor he advertises?
Ok so I didn’t have too many ideas, but you should definitely write something if you think there was enough to write about. Hope my ideas can get you a good start!
by Mplax on Nov 28, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Saw him get a 4-point play, which was pretty sweet
But otherwise I was mesmerized by that opposing forward’s pseudo-fro. It was as if Anderson Vareajao’s fro had its air let out.
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i watched that by chance it was right before Turkey time
by anen87 on Nov 29, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All I can say
Is that Kahn had better be taking his genius pills after every meal. The ice is getting pretty thin on this frozen-river-crossing to respectability, and it seems there are fewer and fewer people on the banks ready to throw this team a rope if they fall through.
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 4:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Everybody on both sides of the above posts...
… needs to take a deep breath, grab some leftovers from the fridge, and realize that none of this back-and-forth needs to be ad hominem. One of the hallmarks of this board is that everyone can express joy and frustration without qualification, provided some reasonable grounds are given, and we should be glad we have a board like that. Some of us are pissed, some of us are optimistic. But we are all (I think) adults. Keep it focused on the court, the numbers, or the finances, not on each other. That’s the quickest way for a good blog to go sour.
by TheH on Nov 28, 2009 4:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking the exact same thing
Well said, sir. This is why I post here and not on Yahoo! comment threads.
by nja700 on Nov 28, 2009 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who a thunk
that this team may make McHale look competent by comparison.
by Elastico on Nov 28, 2009 8:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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