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The Goldman Sachs Approach to the NBA

OK folks, we have a lot to talk about today so I'll put it below the fold.  Before you click on the "read more" button, scroll down the page or click here to read Britt's interview with Kurt Rambis and Ryan Gomes.  You should also head on over to SI.com to read his latest column on the strong start of the 09/10 rookie class. 

One more thing before we go below the fold.  The WNBA is holding its draft lottery on Thursday afternoon at 1 PM CST.  As I have mentioned several times before, the Lynx have a legit shot at walking away with 2 of the top 3 picks in next year's draft.  Here is a link to some of the top players in women's college ball.   We'll have more coverage on the lotto tomorrow.

Let's get around to talking about the game against the Celts.

 

 

 

 

Star-divide

The Wolves ended their 8-game preseason averaging 39 FTA/game.  They gave up 32.5 FTA/game to their opponents.  In 5 regular season games, the Wolves are averaging 20.6 FTA/game.  They are giving up roughly 26 FTA/game to the opposition.  There are obviously many things that are different between preseason and regular season basketball.  From rotations to coaching to intensity, things turn a tad more serious on Day 1 of the 82 game marathon and it is admittedly impossible to quantify all of these differences.  

That being said, when the differences become as big as they are shaping up to be in terms of free throws and free throw differential, it begs the question of "why?" What on earth could be the reason for not only such a dramatic reduction of free throw attempts, but a reversal of fortune?  My own personal take on this is that there is probably something along a 70/30 split between unquantifiable differences between the two seasons and the change in game management between the replacement refs and the seasoned pros.  Yes, game management.  Mark Cuban put it nicely in an interview with Dan Patrick:

"They've done a really, really good job. There's no agenda, there's no game management. It's just call the game the best you can. And to me that's refreshing," Cuban said.

Cuban said the replacement refs are just calling what they see. For example, they made a tough call on Dirk Nowitzki that Cuban didn't expect.

One of the most impressive parts of the preseason was the Wolves' new found ability to draw fouls, specifically with Jonny Flynn and Corey Brewer.  Brewer averaged 7.25 FTA/game in the preseason while Flynn put up 7.1 attempts per contest.  This development, more than any other, gave Wolves fans (and probably coaches) a sense of optimism about the development of these two young players.  When all else is failing with your game, one of the big things you can always fall back on is solid free throw shooting.  With the replacement refs in place during the preseason, the Wolves' games were not managed.  They got calls I had never seen them get before and their ability to get to the line was a surprisingly large part of their relative success. 

Flash forward to the regular season and the Wolves are now back to playing in contests that have a managed feel to them. Whistles get put away in the last 20 seconds of each quarter, players with high scoring averages draw a foul on the assumption of contact, and guys who are viewed as solid defenders can get a little more than a piece of the ball while not drawing the call.  This change in atmosphere has had a fairly significant affect on the team and the two players I mentioned above. 

Corey Brewer is averaging 3 FTA/game in 5 regular season games.  He had 1 attempt vs the Celtics.  It wasn't for a lack of contact.  Not against the Celtics.  Jonny Flynn is averaging 4.2 FTA/game in the regular season.  He also had only 1 attempt vs. the Celtics. 

Let me be very clear about what I am suggesting here.  We all know that Corey Brewer makes a lot of crazy drives into the lane.  For all of the (largely unintended) entertainment value that comes along with seeing a professional athlete like Brewer flail around like he doesn't know how to dribble the damn ball, it's quite easy to overlook the fact that the whirling dervishness often comes along with a fairly significant amount of contact.  In the preseason, this contact was viewed as a "foul" rather than the regular season equivalent of being "out of control".  The result of this change as been that his offensive game has dried up and 6-16 nights with 18 points and more pressure put on opposing defenses turn into 6-16 efforts with 14 points and lost possessions.

I am in no way suggesting that the Wolves lost the game vs. the Celts because of the refs.  What I am suggesting is that we got a quick view of what a classless NBA society looked like in the preseason and a small change in the way fouls were called with the old refs back in place re-stratified things and created a big impact on how the Wolves are able to play.  

Wolves fans are especially aware of these minor changes.  Imagine the surprise of Boston fans if the replacement refs were subbed into last night's contest and KG's regular season "defensive hustle" to force a jump ball on Corey Brewer with 3.6 seconds left to play was turned into its preseason equivalent of "gratuitous arm hack".  Imagine the Tommy Points that would be taken away from this ref crew!  This isn't a complaint.  It is what it is and I think it is a lot more consistent and constant than what people give it credit for.  What it is is a frustrating mess for fans of a team who watch one approach in the preseason and another one when the big lights turn on.  It's not just that there are differences between regular season and preseason play, it's that there was such an obvious change in approach between the group of inexperienced refs and the experienced ones.  The rub here is that part of NBA fandom seems to be hoping that your favorite team can one day achieve the benefit of the doubt, thus allowing you to crack a wry smile as the guys in gray bend all the rules in your favor.  This is one of the reasons why the NBA makes for the best male soap opera.  It's real life.  It's why fans of win-poor teams hope for liberal changes to the reffing policy while the upper crust of the league enjoys things just they way they are.  How American is that?!  As a perfect gift-wrapped example of this phenomenon, Tommy Heinsohn chalked up the win to the "poise and experience" of the Celts.   What Heinsohn doesn't do is finish the thought.  What he really means to say is that the Celts won because they had the "poise and experience to know how the sausage is made and the means to act accordingly."  Call it the Goldman Sachs approach to basketball.

Anywho, aside from the ref-related funny business associated with last night's game, Wolves fans were treated to a fantastic contest.  Granted, the other team was on the 2nd night of a B2B on the road and we did not see their best effort.  However, this is also a team that the Wolves have played closer than expected over the last two years and while we keep expecting a blow-out, it just hasn't happened. 

Whether it was intended or not, the Wolves adopted a Rondo-or-no-one approach to losing last night.  Time and time again, Jonny Flynn left Rondo with 10 feet (yes, 10 feet) of open space to double on Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (who looked especially elderly against the Puppies).  Time and time again Rondo took advantage of this space to grab an offensive rebound, tip a ball to a teammate, and make a nice pass to an unguarded big underneath the bucket.  The Wolves bet against Rondo and they lost. 

Let's end with some random thoughts:

  • Kendrick Perkins is a human moving screen.
  • The White Hole had the game of his life and he didn't back down when KG started up his played-out get-in-the-face-of-the-big-dopey-white-guy routine in the 3rd quarter. 
  • Speaking of class and KG, the Boston League Pass telecast caught him dropping a "get the f#$k out of here" into the open mic of CSN's poor sideline reporter.  Earlier in the game, KG dropped a "get that s%*t out of here" that was loud enough to shake the rafters.  I'm not a prude but I am a professional. I will never get why KG gets a pass on that part of his persona.  He's paid to not have that sort of crap work its way to the surface. 
  • Putting aside the ridiculous side of KG and getting around to the considerably larger great one, I was listening to KFAN today when Dan Barreiro trotted out the tried, true, and tired KG-isn't-really-as-good-as-Duncan-or-Kobe talker.  This is almost as ridiculous as the he's-not-a-4th-quarter-finisher argument.  (Quick side note: I'm reading Bill Simmons' new book and he pulls a similar argument; placing KG as the 22nd greatest player of all time while jacking Duncan all the way up to #7.) Let me lay out the two most important points that can be made about KG.  First, he couldn't control who played with him.  No matter how down he was with T-Hud or Joe Smith, he wasn't his own GM and the player-personnel buck did not stop with him.  Second, whenever you surround a healthy KG with at least two competent top-half scorers, you either go to the conference finals or win the title.  With KG, the Celts win a title and they currently are the best defensive team in the NBA with some solid signs that they will go a long way in the playoffs.  Without him, they barely beat the Bulls.  I will expand on the statistical component of the KG/Duncan comparison in my Simmons book review post but the take-away here is that KG was surrounded by inferior players for the vast majority of his career while producing similar raw numbers and slightly superior win scores than Duncan.  When he was finally surrounded with talent that could somewhat compare with what Duncan had in San Antonio, he won at a level every bit as high as Duncan.  Danny-B needs to direct his next talker at McHale, as KG was easily a top 5 player for a large chunk of his time with the Wolves...and he's still a top 10 player to this very day. 
  • While I am writing this, Andy Pettitte is thanking god for his World Series win.  I had no idea that god was the street name for steroids. Kids these days!

Here are your Four Factors for the game:

Pace Eff eFG FT/FG OREB% TOr
Boston 90.0 102.2 47.6% 15.7 19.0 10.0
Minnesota 100.0 53.3% 13.3 17.6 18.9

 

You will notice that the Wolves lost this game for the exact opposite reasons they lost their last game: because they were turned over more and couldn't get as high a percentage of offensive rebounds as the Celts (as opposed to getting out-shot while turning the ball over less and gathering more offensive rebounds). 

The Celts really turned up the defensive pressure in the 2nd half.  The Wolves finished the game with 17 TOs and they went to the 1/2 with 3. 

Well, that about does it for the wrap-up.  It's time to turn in for the night.  What caught your eye about the game? 

Don't forget to check out Britt's posts and to keep an eye out for the WNBA lotto today. 

Until later.

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Comments

Display:

Well, let's look at what was good about this game:

Well, let’s look at what was good about this game:

- We didn’t get blown out, which is what was expected. We actually gave Boston more trouble than any other team so far this year

- Al Jefferson is showing he can definitely fit into the triangle. He’s got some adjusting still to do, but no more than anyone else

- We actually have a real offense. Not just giving it to Al and standing around watching him. The ball moved well the whole night. Corey and Jonny both had 5 assists, Al and Gomes both had 3. So it looks like the triangle will work for us long term

- We did, in fact, play solid defense

- Flynn and Brewer both look like they will “get it”. Before tonight, I was a little iffy on Corey and really iffy on Jonny

I mean, we won in pretty much every sense but the final score. What did us in was turnovers and those couple of offensive rebounds we gave up in the 4th.

Even in just the past 3 games, you can clearly see the Wolves’ offense progressing. Tonight was the first game this season where I watched the team and really felt everyone understood what was supposed to be happening. The ball wasn’t just moving, it was getting to the right spots at the right times, and the players were making the right decisions when they caught it. Just seeing us executing an offense more complex than “Al Jefferson gets the ball” was reason enough to be pleased with this game.

Heartbreaker loss for sure, but a huge step forward for the team, both since last game and last year.
-
I am my own Nobody

by Oceanary on Nov 5, 2009 12:17 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

A Bill Simmons book review?

Excellent, because I kind of wanted to know what he talks about in that book just for the heck of it, but I don’t want to spend time frustrating myself reading a widely-circulated book by somebody who literally puts no effort into his job.

by LoveTo on Nov 5, 2009 1:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hunh?

I’m reading his book now as well, and have been a reader of his work for some time. I’m not thrilled with his take on Kahn and the T-Wolves, but I don’t think you can accuse Simmons of not putting effort into his job.

One of the pleasures of his book and columns is that he actually watches alot of basketball. Far, far, far more than most national columnists.

Again, don’t always agree with his conclusions, but there are alot more Barreiros (virtually no preparation and watches very few games) out there than Robsons (consumate pro and analysis), so I’m glad Simmons is an NBA Fan and I think he has kept interest in the NBA up purely because he is such a fan and so widely read.

His book just hit #1 on the NY Times bestseller list. Who would have predicted a 700+ page book on basketball history and playerl comparisons would do that.

by Django Z on Nov 5, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So far...

…the main point of my book review is a hybrid of what the both of you are saying. Simmons definitely puts effort into his NBA work. That is obvious from page one. What is also obvious from page one is that he has just created the Seinfeld of NBA reading: an entertaining work about nothing. It will be something to talk about at the water cooler and to keep you entertained for 1/2 hour stretches at a time, but ultimately, he poured his work into something that appears lazy and about nothing in particular. Even the stuff that is supposed to mean something doesn’t really mean much when you actually apply the analogy/logic he is implying. It’s argument fodder and good entertainment. To make a more obscure reference, it’s like Stephen Malkmus’ guitar playing: it takes a lot of work to sound that slack and in the long run no one will really remember how to hum along with one of your riffs.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Reading it as well...

…and haven’t been all that impressed. Only 100 pages in so far and it’s very scattered. His Wilt vs. Russell section was very whiny.

Oh well. At least I made him sign “I was wrong about the Rubio trade”.

by saudagg on Nov 5, 2009 11:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, maybe that was a poor way of saying it.

I guess I’ve just grown really tired of Simmons. Even before the Wolves drafted Rubio. I used to love him, and think he was hilarious. But there really isn’t a lot to his stuff, in my opinion. The only work he does is to pick an opinion almost at random, and then to put it out there like it’s the result of his extensive, definitive research.

Basically, it’s just bad joke after bad joke, but he wants you to take him seriously as a basketball expert, when he has no more access or better vantage point than you or I do. He’s essentially a 40-year old blogger who writes in the voice of a frat boy, and I think it’s kind of annoying.

by LoveTo on Nov 5, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And if I want to read a good basketball book that isn’t dependent on a guy’s half-baked opinions and stale pop culture references, I’m going to get Jack McCallum’s new book, Art of a Beautiful Game.

by LoveTo on Nov 5, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's actually by Chris Ballard....

but the Art of a Beautiful Game is really a good read…. I’m only part way through—I figured I’d post something on here once I’d finished.

It’s a great book for people who love the NBA and appreciate the athletes who play it, but I think I’ll also gift a few copies at Christmas this year to some hoops fans who claim the NBA game is too impure for them…

by PDGirl on Nov 5, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Chris Ballard is what I meant. My bad. I’m planning on reading it, though.

by LoveTo on Nov 5, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i wuz at de game mayn

worst officiated game in aminute. iss nothing short uv fucking embarassing an pathetic at dis point. iss staright unfaur ta rob teams uv wins. dis iz a serious problem dat need sta be addressed on a much bigger level, we all assume it mayn, but honessly dis iz out uv hand, NBA refereeing iz shiesty beyond belief on both sides an iss fuckin embarassing. dass all i got ta say.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Nov 5, 2009 2:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yup

I’ll come out and say it—the reffing of this game altered the outcome. JPete observed Rondo fouling Flynn in the waning seconds of the game. Do we get the call? No. Does that mean that we should have won? By no means. But we’ll never get the chance to find out if Flynn could make those two free throws to tie it, or if Rondo could drive and pass to Allen for a three to win at the buzzer, or if Brewer could manage a steal and an off kilter jumper to win it. Instead we have what, to me personally, looked like refs calling a game in which the ‘better’ team got the benefit of the doubt and the ‘rebuilding’ and ‘young’ team had to learn that you have to earn the right to those calls.

That to me is a travesty and a shame. I respectfully disagree with SnP if he is suggesting this is something that makes the NBA more appealiing:

This (the ‘game management’ by refs) is one of the reasons why the NBA makes for the best male soap opera. It’s real life.

No, that’s called altering the outcome of professional sports, not letting the best team win, and when done most aggregiously it’s called cheating. What was so compelling to me, and is worth pointing out again, is that when the game is called more ‘fairly’ Corey Brewer looks like a star in making, and when called by the Good Ole Refs he looks like a bumbling idiot. My ability to determine how good of a player he can be is now determined as much by whether I believe he can solve the ref riddle and get those calls as it is by any basketball ability he may have. Put another way, players now must be evaluated on their political shrewdness and reputation with refs and not just their basketball talent.

Sadly for me it just comes across as further proof that the NBA is a business who values its business interests as much as (if not more than) maintaining the integrity of the game. The Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, etc. of the world are the good teams (and markets/loyal fanbases) and get preferential treatment. The Grizzlies, Twolves, Clippers etc. are the bad teams and have to earn the right to those calls. If you have a player or two with serious star power, then you get some of those calls. If not, then sorry, but that’s business. It’s a variation of the same meme-good teams win, bad teams bumble it away (like last night). I know this is probably coming across as sour grapes, and maybe a little bit of it is, but it really is frustrating that this is the reality of following the NBA. I want to see the best team win, not the team with the best reputation. To sum up with a quote from Mike Miller, “It’s called basketball.” Teams decide the outcome, not refs or reputations.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Nov 5, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it's disgusting mayn

to call de amount uv touch fouls on de wolves, an it happened at leass 5 times an led to at leass 6 free points fo de celts, an den NOT call a foul on KG at d end when it wuz clearly a foul within how dey were callin de game, iz pathetic, disgusting, and fucking repulsive. im still furious bout dis mayn an with each loss de refs gives us is mo an mo clear dat de NBA on many levels iz a fuckin joke.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Nov 5, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t forget acting, that’s relevant basketball skill #1 these days.

The reffing is one huge huge downside to the NBA for me. I know it’s a tough job and that calls get blown both ways, and theoretically it should even out, but it rarely does for the Wolves. We are the Rodney Dangerfields of the NBA.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I am going to chalk

this one up to a win for the wolves. Whatever the final record, I am going to manually adjust. A short list of mythical calls and non-calls.

Mythical: Rondo Flops under the wolves basket and Hollins gets the foul called on him (no contact at all)

The KG Brewer jump ball (definitely got more than just ball…last time I checked that was a foul)

Non-Call:
Pech gets hacked on his wrist when he makes the layup (the exact opposite of all ball)

Rondo grabs Flynn’s jersey at the end to prevent him from making a play for the ball.

Flynn gets a lot of contact on late 4th qtr drive and sent to the floor (contact was inside circle)

Do you mean to tell me that this doesn’t net the wolves at least 3 points? I was very pleased with the wolves last night. Good game guys. Don’t let the refs get you down.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t forget Rondo holding down Flynn on said jump ball so that the ball goes over his head. Or the “shove” from Al to Perkins while going for a rebound that caused Mr. 280lbs to go flying 10 feet forward. Or any number of Perkins moving screens that were never called.

Same old shit. I totally agree this is a victory for the Wolves. It wil never be as sweet as a true win, but it could have gone a lot worse, and hey, at least it won’t screw over our draft position (small consolation, I know).

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, you got the Rondo/Flynn thing on the jump. Ridiculous.How about KG elbowing Hollins and pulling his jersey, then sticking his throat into Hollins’ outstretched elbow and acting like he got punched in the face to draw the offensive foul?

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How about three consecutive times after KG gets fouled...

he raises his arms in the air in classic “I want to make it look like I didn’t just knock the crap out of somebody” fashion?

by TimAllen on Nov 5, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Add this to the list

and it might be more important than all the rest. We got the ball back with 17 seconds left and didn’t get the timeout until 10. Rambis was jumping up and down screaming for it, because all three of the refs were stupidly looking the other way down the court.

So what happened? With less time, Brewer was the one who had to drive into the best defender of the past decade. After the jump ball went out of bounds, we had .9 seconds to put up a shot rather than 7.9. Major screw-up.

by John Doe on Nov 5, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to register another complaint.

There’s a lot of similarity between a Paul Pierce drive and a Corey Brewer drive. Sure, NBA conventional wisdom tells us that Pierce is moving with precision while Brewer is out of control, but in terms of what actually happens, it’s a herky-jerk drive with erratic motion and lots of bumping into people.

I’m not sure if Pierce was being shut down or just never showed up for this game, but twice in the fourth quarter, you could see him decide to drive it, and from the moment he starts dribbling at the top of the 3 point line, you knew there was going to be a foul. Simply put, he was going all the way to the rim, regardless of what kind of defense there was in front of him, and nothing we could do would keep the refs from blowing the whistle. Could Brewer get away with that? No chance.

by John Doe on Nov 5, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

It’s easy to blame the refs for stealing this game from the Wolves especially because as hard as the Wolves played, you would like they deserved this one. In this case, the refs DID blow it. I went back a watched the KG/Brewer jumpball and the ref that made the call was behind Brewer and I’m pretty sure couldn’t even see the ball. Thats the baseline refs call and it was blown.

I completely disagree with referees “managing” games. For the first time in my life I agree with Mark Cuban when he would rather see impartial refs (second time if you count the time he called Kenyon Martin a thug). The problem with the NBA is that some refs have just as big of egos as the players.

by Funkle Jesse on Nov 5, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The point that you make

about the NBA valuing business interests over maintaining the integrity of the game, is one that I have definitely come to terms with recently. If you think about it, it shouldn’t really be that big of a shock that a lot of the way the competition is played out is based on the bottom line. It’s not just restricted to the NBA , I live in Australia and the Australian Football League acts in a similar way to the NBA – giving the bigger markets ‘preferential’ treatment, star players the benefit of the doubt etc. I would say that it would effect most sports competitions because it’s really a business problem.

The way I see it is that these competitions (just like any other company) need to maintain the image that they are fair and balanced, morally conscience etc so as to not alienate a large portion of their customers, but at the same time they would understand what drives profits for them is giving the star players and big markets the preferential treatment. Elevating certain players and teams to great heights is what sells the merchandise and the image that earns the company top dollar internationally.

When I look at it from that perspective I don’t see it as some great injustice that the NBA may act unfairly. While as a huge basketball fan it definitely ruins my pleasure of the game, from a business perspective I can understand it. It’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that the conspiracy theories about finals being decided behind closed doors and draft picks allocated before the lottery turned out to be true. I would imagine that the people that make these decisions don’t really care about the ‘moral’ implications of acting in such a way, but rather the image implications and it’s effect on business if they were found out.

Anyway that’s just my two cents, I’m sure none of that is really a revelation to anyone. Just thought I’d put it out there.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve always thought about it differently, in a way that doesn’t require fair play to be grounded in morality. That is, I’ve thought that the business risk associated with being caught manipulating the outcome was too great to risk doing it. On top of that, most sports do a good job of manufacturing their own drama; you just don’t know where it will come from if it’s not stage managed.

That said, it looks like I’ve probably had that wrong all along.

by Madison Dan on Nov 5, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I definitely agree with you

about the business risk with being caught manipulating the results, that’s why I don’t think the NBA would practice the wholesale rigging of games/series/seasons. I do think that the competition is skewed slightly in favor of certain parties however…

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never thought that blown calls are the result of a greater conspiracy

I think refs may give more calls to star players in some occassions, give make-up calls, and use their own biases to make some judgments, but I’ve never seen any evidence (the for sale ‘confession’ of a convicted felon aside) that would make me believe that David Stern or the NBA at large is rigging games.

by TimAllen on Nov 5, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I play on a football league

and I have heard refs say the following much too frequently.

“They have played in this league for a while and I know that play, so I give them the benefit of the doubt that the ______ is done correctly.”

No joke. Basically it is the newbie you better earn your stripes before you complain argument. Not so much a conspiracy as they aren’t being observant which is supposed to be the reason they are paid.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just think

That the NBA is missing out on an opportunity to enter a new golden age of interest and profitability. The NFL is king of the crop these days mostly because of it’s parity. Sure, some people still think that the Favre’s, Brady’s, and Manning’s of the world will get some calls other guys won’t, but with instant replay there’s a least some level of in-game accountability. Furthermore I think most fans think it’s exciting that their team can come together and make the playoffs after a disastrous previous year. In other words, you don’t need dynasties to be exciting as the storylines of fairytale teams (like last year’s Falcons) is more than enough. The current renaissance of great young QB play is great for the NFL, and the NBA could have the same thing if they just let people discover it by letting the guys play it out. I’d rather know that KG is better than Pech and Hollins because he proved it on the court, not because he knows how to cheat and not get caught.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Nov 5, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Who’s more exciting to watch in the postseason: a young team with better talent or a vet team who “knows the rules”? Those vet teams are dead ducks in the playoffs because their tricks don’t work any more.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 5, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Which was why

Watching the Bulls in the playoffs last year was so much fun.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Nov 5, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But isn't "real life"...

….filled with instances with the deck being stacked and the powerful using the rules to their advantage? I’m not saying that this makes the NBA more appealing; rather, that this is an extended male soap opera (to borrow a term from a recent comment by…sorry, I can’t remember exactly who made it) that draws fantastic parallels to the real world. In terms of general ideology, I completely agree with you that the sort of thing that happened with the Boston game is wrong. It’s crap. However, as an analogy of how the world works, I think the NBA is spot on…at least more so than any other pro league. There is no such thing as a free market. The people who make the rules and cut the checks find ways to make things happen and idealism becomes detached from what actually happens. I think it’s fascinating.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand your point but...

I think the biggest reason we all watch sports is to not follow the same pattern of “real life”. I don’t watch sports for the artificial drama created by favoritism. I believe there is plenty of drama during a game without the referees. Everyone loves a good upset. Last night had the makings of a really good upset and the powers that be helped prevent that. I’m a proponent of a level playing field.

by Funkle Jesse on Nov 5, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I get the escapism....

…aspect, but ultimately the greatest sports moments are the ones that say something about larger things: culture, trends, broad mindsets, etc. It’s human drama on a large scale and the stuff that people remember means something greater than just having fun. The good upset resonates with people because it is infrequent and most people can relate to the deck being stacked against them. These are themes that we recognize from real life condensed into 48 minutes and sprinkled with dunks.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

whoops...

..meant to write “large stage” instead of “large scale”

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely something to be said for the "large scale" too...

…Re: feral’s comment last night in reference to the Shaq-satellite-orbit triumvirate.

by Boss10 on Nov 5, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you

you could almost draw a parallel between the NBA and the company practices exposed by the current financial crisis. Although it would be a fairly tenuous link haha….

The idealism of the free market (fair treatment for every team) vs the reality where the rules meant to create equity are twisted by the bigger teams for personal gain.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the way to avoid future NBA financial crises

is to increase their capital reserve referee requirements!

Wait, now i think i’m getting confused…

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking...

..something more along the lines of issuing credit default swaps on assistant coaches.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

and buying stable return fund contracts on players to guarantee continued growth and development on your investment.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we could..

..package our riskier contracts together (i.e crap players) into a CDO, with just enough sweetener (a reasonable player) to ensure it receives a AAA rating, and then split them up and flog it off to other teams in return for their good contracts.

I hear that strategy worked well for the financial market in the past…

Do you think this comedy premise has run out of legs yet?

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know, but I’m buying puts on Jonny Flynn next year.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hell, i might

be willing to sell you those puts depending on how this season plays out.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Betting against the 2nd year curse, eh? Gutsy.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no guts

no glory. Everyone remembers the big win, only whiners remember the big loss. So I am going for the big win.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

An interesting turn....

Who has more balls.
And yes, I mean 3 or more.

by Boss10 on Nov 5, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

3 out of our 5 games were decided with 3 points or less. I’d say we’re gonna be all right, if not this year then the next.

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Nov 5, 2009 3:39 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

That reminds me of...

this (highlights are mine):

"I care a lot more about what ought to have happened than what actually happens," said Hinkie, who has an M.B.A. from Stanford. The routine N.B.A. game, he explained, is decided by a tiny percentage of the total points scored. A team scores on average about 100 points a game, but two out of three N.B.A. games are decided by fewer than 6 points — two or three possessions. The effect of this, in his mind, was to raise significantly the importance of every little thing that happened. The Lakers’ Trevor Ariza, who makes 29 percent of his 3-point shots, hit a crazy 3-pointer, and as the crowd moaned, Hinkie was almost distraught. "That Ariza shot, that is really painful," he said. "Because it’s a near-random event. And it’s a 3-point swing." When Bryant drove to the basket, instead of being forced to take a jump shot, he said: "That’s three-eighths of a point. Thesethings accumulate."

In this probabilistic spirit we watched the battle between Battier and Bryant. From Hinkie’s standpoint, it was going extremely well: "With most guys, Shane can kick them from their good zone to bad zone, but with Kobe you’re just picking your poison. It’s the epitome of, Which way do you want to die?" Only the Rockets weren’t dying. Battier had once again turned Bryant into a less-efficient machine of death. Even when the shots dropped, they came from the places on the court where the Rockets’ front office didn’t mind seeing them drop. "That’s all you can do," Hinkie said, after Bryant sank an 18-footer. "Get him to an inefficient spot and contest." And then all of a sudden it was 97-95, Lakers, with a bit more than three minutes to play, and someone called timeout. "We’re in it," Hinkie said, happily. "And some of what happens from here on will be randomness."

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 6:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder what Hinkie

thinks of the Corey Brewer off balance layup in traffic…

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it would depend on the other available options

and that’s a big problem with the wolves. i’m not sure guys like ryan gomes give them much better odds. the team’s small on/off +- sample seems to generally side with brewer doing something right relative to his teammates.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know much about on/off +-

but is it an aggregate score of his time on the court? I.e there’s no way to separate the + he provides on the defensive end from the – of his offensive errors? Or am I looking at it too simply?

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There are a few different ways to look at it..

….and as an individual stat it isn’t all that effective. However, if you use it to determine lineup effectiveness, it’s a fairly decent tool. The basic premise goes like this: How well does the team do with Brewer on the court compared to when he is off? How do the Wolves perform on both sides of the ball in terms of generic +/-, pts/48, and whatever other stat you want to throw in there. You can look at 5 man rotations here:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2009-2010&team=MIN

And Brewer here:

http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=712

Just for the sake of an example, let’s look at the points the Wolves score and give up when Brewer is on the court: 293/304. That’s a -11. When Brewer is on the bench, the Wolves put up a 91/106, good for a -15. However, they put up the -15 in significantly less time than the minutes he is on the court. If you put this on a per possession basis, the Wolves give up a total of -5.08 points/100 possessions with Brewer out there compared to -11.57 pts/100 possessions when he is on the bench. This really doesn’t tell us much about his overall worth; rather, just how valuable he is in relative terms to the guys and lineups who replace him. Again, this is a team measurement more than anything else and his adjusted plus/minus numbers simply could mean that the Wolves have terrible options all around. Whatever the case, the Wolves do better on both offense and defense in terms of points/100 possessions and pts/48 minutes when Brewer is out there jacking up all sorts of crazy shots than they are when he’s on the bench. There are a lot of other factors that go into this sort of thing but it’s pretty interesting.

BTW: There are some pretty decent attempts at figuring out an individual defensive player rating. The latest one is here:

http://www.basketballgeek.com/2009/10/30/individual-defensive-efficiency-ratings-extracted-from-play-by-play-data/

It’s from last year’s data but it’s pretty clear that Brewer was the best defensive player on the team.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do teams

utilize these statistics? Like do they employ a mathematician or a game theorist or something to crunch the numbers for them and then give advice on what strategies/player development needs there are for the team? It seems like if you mixed the stats with the knowledge of the game that the coaches have you could maximize the value of your players.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

many teams do

the better ones have more or better stat crunchers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

then you would just use your god like jedi powers

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly;

+- is simple how much the player’s team has scored more than the opposing time during the time the player is on the court.

So if Brewer has a +3 in the game against Dallas .. then this means that during the time that Brewer was on the court the T-Wolves scored 3 more points than the Mavs.

This is a stat that has to be met (like all others too actually) with the right mindset. As this is a teamgame, being on the court with 4 other good guys on your team, playing against the opposing teams bench, playing garbage time minutes etc etc are all factors that might influence the game quite a bit.

Because of this there’s a site “popcornmachine” that shows how the +- goes during certain stretches of the game. So you can for instance see that Brewer registered a +5 during playing against the other teams bench team with Al of the floor but had a -6 against the other teams starters without Al on the floor (I’m just pulling these numbers out of my hat).

So all in all, it’s definitly a good stat for finding chemistry between 2 players. If 2 players some to have better +- numbers when they’re on the floor together but worse +- when playing seperate than that could indicate that there might be some good chemistry between the two.

Especially in large quantities it can also be used as a gauge of a player’s all-around performance (and I see SnP just was a tad quicker :p)

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Nov 5, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to say

I’m starting to like this Pecherov starting thing. For all the grief we give him, he’s never had an honest chance in the NBA until now (he’s only 23). After this game, I say start him at PF until Kevin Love returns, and if keeps his shooting and rebounding up, we’ve got ourselves a useful bench big.

by McCleak on Nov 5, 2009 8:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

He was better than that last night.

We was our best player, like an ugly man’s Dirk Nowitzki (which is saying something). Before the game, I was totally on board with not picking up his option. Now it seems ludicrous. We could have had that guy for another year for little more than a million?

The shooting was crucial, but expected. The White Hole will take those shots every game; it just so happened that this game he made most of them. However, his toughness was something completely new. My main criticism before yesterday was that he gives up as many points as he creates by not rebounding and shying away from contact. We new and improved, fired up/pissed off Pecherov doesn’t have that problem.

Was this merely a reaction to his option not being picked up? I guess we’ll see. But he was really good out there last night.

by John Doe on Nov 5, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else think that, aside from his Stewie hair, he kind of looks like Jean Reno from the Professional? Pec is a total character, especially when he’s getting fired up. I hope he keeps this up, because I love watching amusing players.

And yeah he actually puts some effort into rebounding, and while he’s not all that great, he does sort of try defensively. A little effort combined with some length means that he’s not killing you on that side of the floor most of the time.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My girlfriend was with me at the game last night. Seeing Pecherov, she arrived at “Jude Law’s tall brother, only he got all the unfortunate traits.” Clearly, Pecherov’s face can never really be fully described. You have to be there.

by John Doe on Nov 5, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I also

love the hunch. He’s like an Easter European viper ready to uncoil, only he never does.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Nov 5, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And when he drives, he hunches even more and looks like a 7’ goblin. Pure hilarity!

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Eastern European assassin! My suspicions from the game thread confirmed! Bring on the neck beard!!

by TheH on Nov 5, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Second the neck beard.

Christopher Walken (leather jacket, greasy, slicked-back hair, smoked aviator glasses): “Guess what?! I got a fever, and the only prescription… is more ugly!”

by Boss10 on Nov 5, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good post

The reffing stuff is always frustrating when the Wolves are on the short end of it. Pech’s layin where he was hacked across the arms was the worst no-call, but the play on Garnett, given the magnitude of the play and the focus the refs should have had on the contact, was less acceptable. How the hell do you draw a jumpball on a moving player when you’re reaching around his whole body?

Re: KG’s greatness. I buy the Duncan 7th KG 22nd thing. Clearly, any attempt to rank players historically is mostly subjective, since you can create your own criteria. I just remember the first two Spurs title teams not being loaded with talent, and very few teams have ever won titles without two or more superstars. The first one had an aging Admiral. The second had very young Parker-Ginobili. Those teams had nothing even approaching a veteran Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Given that Duncan got two rings in those circumstances (and two others with better supporting casts—but still not as good as the current C’s) I think he gets a significant nod over Garnett. And the current Garnett does not look as good as the one we saw two years ago. I’ll give him the same benefit of the doubt as I’m giving Jefferson, in that he’s recovering from a knee injury. But given KG’s age and the lack of an objective injury (was there ever a real diagnosis?) I question whether he will ever return to his old form. He’s visibly less explosive and is not an effective scorer, anymore. He is a great passer, though, so teams shouldn’t make the mistake of doubling him on the block.

I loved the Rondo strategy, and I think that it’ll be the one used by all Celtic-opponents in the playoffs. The mistake that Flynn made (at least three times) was losing sight of Rajon, and giving up an easy layup. It’s one thing to play 10-feet off of him, but another to just ignore him completely. It’s funny how that sort of mental game works, though — Rondo was being left completely open 17 feet from the hoop and he couldn’t hit the shot. He’d probably hit it if he had a guy near him and felt more respected. It’s pretty awkward to take shots when the other team is inviting you like that.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 8:44 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Very well put, Andy G, regarding KG vs. Duncan.

And while I found myself nodding along in agreement to your post, SnP, I disagree that KG is a top 10 player to this day. I don’t even think he’s the best player on his own team. You point out that the Celtics barely beat the Bulls without KG, but the year prior, they barely beat the Hawks or the Cavs with KG (and they beat the Cavs mainly because of Pierce’s excellent play).

by TimAllen on Nov 5, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

AND...

they barely beat the T-wolves with KG. juuuust saying.

by davechisholm on Nov 5, 2009 9:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But they still won a championship with KG

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The leap from first round

to championship is enormous. They barely beat the Hawks, but then they creamed the Lakers. Also, KG adds more than on-court things. He is the reason that team is so dedicated to defense. And more so the reason they are so successful at it.

by Mplax on Nov 5, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would buy that

about KG and Duncan. Plus I think that part of KGs problem was he couldn’t calm himself down. He always played so amped up that he was exhausted by the 4th quarter (well the amped up thing and the 40+ minutes :)) Duncan on the other hand always seemed so even keeled.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 9:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He certainly...

…wouldn’t win any 1-on-1 competitions at this point in his career but in terms of a teammate meaning something to his team (which is how I think the best players should be judged in a team game), he’s a top 10 player. Without him, the Celtics aren’t a championship team. With him they are, along with being the best defensive team in the league and one that creates huge offensive matchup problems. No other Boston player (outside of maybe an emerging Rondo) has that type of effect on the team.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Top 10

It’s not easy to make a clear-cut Top 10, in terms of players’ current value, but I think there is a top tier that is definitely ahead of KG. I count these guys:

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Wade
4) Howard
5) CP3
6) Melo

After that, there’s a long list of others that arguably fall in the Top 10. Examples:

KG
Duncan
Roy
Gasol
Pierce
Bosh
Dirk
Deron
Parker
Billups

Whether KG is in the Top 4 of that group is hard to say. His defensive impact is obvious, but so are his falling offensive numbers and growing reliance on teammates to carry the load. I would have put him in the Top 4 in 2007-08, but he’s not as good as he was then.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would just say...

…that while I completely agree that KG’s powers are on the decline, they were, at one point, so far above anything else that he’s still above 95% of the rest of the league. Watch the Celts when they play an upper-level team and where they go when they need a stabilizing bucket during the first 3 1/2 quarters of the game. They pound it low to KG and he hits the turnaround jumper. His offensive numbers are declining but the relative impact is still there. He’s a 7 footer with long arms who can get off an unblockable shot whenever his team needs it. Not only that, but he can pass out of that situation and the one guy who could really guard him when it mattered is now a teammate. If I’m a GM building for the future I don’t take KG in the top 10. If I have a team with 2 pieces and I want to win right away, he’s one of my very first choices. There aren’t 10 other players in the league who I think are that type of “you complete me” sort of guys. Gasol in LA comes close but even he doesn’t have the impact that KG does.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I get what you're saying...

I just don’t think KG can bring it like he used to. I know that he could two years ago, but he doesn’t look the same now, as he did then. He missed an easy dunk (because he didn’t get up high enough) in the opener against Cleveland. He bear-hugged Brewer in a situation where he’d normally play honest defense. He clanked a few 21-footers down the stretch, en route to a 12-point effort against the mighty Wolves interior defenders.

From what I’ve seen of Garnett, post-injury, he’s not the same. Since his injury (by the accounts I have read) was mostly a wear-and-tear sort of thing, and not an operable ligament tear or something, I don’t anticipate much progress from here on in.

The Celtics are LOADED with talent, right now, don’t get me wrong. In fact, Rasheed might be one of their three best players, this year, when it’s all said and done. Marquis Daniels was the most underrated pickup of the off-season. I don’t think Garnett needs to be what he once was for them to win this year’s title. And good for them, because I don’t think he’s got that same type of ability. We shall see…

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...

…we shall see.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thinking back, who in the hell thought it was a good idea to double KG? I seem to recall Flynn aggressively doubling, leading to the rondo layup parade in the second half when Flynn totally lost track of him. You’re not going to strip KG as he has excellent ball control and is 7’ tall, and whether you double or not, odds are he’s going to take the same exact shot every time (the turnaround J) and it’s going to have the same exact chance of going in as it ever did. However, if you double him, he’s going to pick you apart. That should have been drilled into them by the coaching staff, because even I could have told you a double on KG wasn’t necessary.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I sort of doubt that Rambis told Flynn to double like that, it seemed like typical rookie over-aggresiveness. It was a mistake. Garnett doesn’t command a double team, but he sure knows how to handle one. So does Wallace. That pair is going to be hard to handle, this year.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably, but if they didn’t tell him to do it, they should have stressed NOT doing it. Stay at home on your guy, because even if Rondo can’t hit a jumper to save his life, he’s great around the hoop and at moving off the ball. He killed us with that, and it was almost always because of Flynn losing track of him along the baseline to go double someone that didn’t require it.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you forget...

…how good an aging Admiral was. He was still one of the top 2 or 3 defenders in the league and he was top 10 in PER and Win Shares. Avery Johnson was a top 10 distributor and Mario Elie was a more versatile Fred Hoiberg. I don’t always agree with Dave Berri but I think he sums it up nicely here:

The problem for KG is not his game, but his teammates. In 2002-03 Garnett produced 31.5 wins. The rest of his team produced 15.1. The next season Garnett produced 30.5 wins while the rest of the T-Wolves produced 25.3 victories. The increased productivity of his teammates allowed the writers to notice Garnett and give him the league MVP award.

In 2004-05, as we note in the book, Garnett was essentially the same player who won the MVP. He produced 30 wins, but his teammates only produced 14.8 victories. This past season, just to make life even less fun, his teammates only produced 9.4 wins. So over the past four seasons, Garnett’s teammates have averaged 16.1 wins per year. Although Garnett is averaging close to 30 wins per season, it is not enough to overcome the performance of his co-workers.

This past season no player in the league had less productive teammates. Only two of his fellow T-Wolves posted an above average wins production per-minute played – Wally Szczerbiak and Eddie Griffin – and one of these was traded away during the season. And Griffin was only barely above average.

And that is the tragedy of Kevin Garnett. Year after year he is the most productive player in the league. And year after year he plays with many players who are not only not average, but quite a bit below average.

Berri also puts together a nice little table of win scores.

Say what you will about Win Scores, but you can add in other efficiency stats into the equation and come up with the same results.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember the aging Admiral quite well...

and boy was he a different (not in a good way) player after he returned from back injuries. It was a McDyess-like career shift, in that he used his wits and experience to be effective, but completely lacked the explosiveness to be the player he once was.

I’m not arguing that Duncan won a title without talent around him. It was just leaps and bounds behind the multiple-perennial-All Star talent that surrounded KG in 2008. Duncan was The Man on those first two title teams, and nobody disputed that.

Garnett has never been, and never will be, the clear centerpiece of a champion. It’s too late now — had McHale surrounded him with more teams like the one in 2004, who knows what would have happened. We can only go by what’s on the books and that’s much more favorable to Duncan.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan...

..certainly was The Man and he produced at a very high level. I’m not arguing that he should be downgraded. My argument is that KG should be upgraded. I think we just have a philosophical difference of opinion on the importance of centerpieces. My main concern is producing victories and there are ways to do that beyond being the focal point on offense or making the hero shot down the stretch. Garnett changed his team and the game on a level matched by very few players. I think the case could be made that he’s in that notch directly below guys like Bird, Magic, and Jordan. He did as much as he possibly could for the Wolves and McHale wasn’t good enough at his job to close the deal. He had the right idea in 03/04 but he couldn’t get it done.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I enjoy these arguments, and I don’t always remain consistent with my methodology and whanot. You’ll notice that when I argue why Kobe is as good as MJ. (Another argument for another day.)

With regard to Duncan and KG, however, I think TD has accomplished things that almost no player has, in winning championships without an Alpha-Dog, Superstar sidekick. I know that doesn’t automatically put him better than Garnett or other great players, but KG, for all his great attributes, never embraced the role of “I’m taking over this game, and there’s nothing you can do to stop me.” It’s something that a lot of guys, who perhaps weren’t the same type of defender and passer as Garnett, could do to get their teams into the later part of the post-season. Since my lasting memories of Garnett are those from Minnesota, before he joined the All-Star Celtics, that’s how I’ll mostly remember him by. His title in Boston “certified” him, or whatever, but it didn’t happen in his iconic years where his combination of size, athleticism and skill make him so unique. In Boston, he’s a more traditional defensive big man, with a nice jumpshot. Granted, he’s also the emotional engine of that team and their defense is their identity. But Garnett’s legacy should be (for mostly better but also worse) defined by his 12 years in Minnesota. Perennial All-Star, most versatile player in the league, but also lacked the killer instinct and ability to carry a team through a playoff series. Duncan had that ability.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I enjoy the give and take as well..

….and I view KG as something of a 21st Century Bill Russell-esqe talent who was betrayed by bad management. The “could have been a contender” character who finally got to prove his worth in a title fight after being put together with a good trainer/staff. The guy was a transcendent talent and he was squandered by a Minnesota basketball folk hero. There’s all sorts of fantastic layers to the story but the heart of it, for me, remains that he was one of the very best, if not the best, player in the league for a stretch of ball in the early to mid 90s. He’s one of those guys that if you have to pick a team to bet your life on, you’d want him in the starting lineup.

BTW: To tie together a few bits and pieces of this thread, Bill Simmons has a “vintage team” he picks in his book to square off in the ultimate death match. His team:

86 Larry Bird
03 Tim Duncan (which really chaps my hide considering the time frame)
85 Magic
92 Jordan
77 Kareem
86 McHale
92 Pippen
77 Walton
01 Kobe
09 Wade
09 CPE
09 LBJ
01 Ray Allen

His rules are that he had to have seen the team/player play and that they had to fit the generic mold of his favorite team: the 86 Celtics.

My team goes as follows:

1- 87/88 Jordan (people forget that he was his craziest before he figured out the mental part of winning it all)
2- 08/09 LBJ (as close as it gets to MJ)
3- 03/04 KG
4- 93/94 David Robinson
5- 05/06 Dirk
6- 86 Bird
7- 89/90 Barkley
8- 84 Magic
9- 94/95 John Stockton
10- 02/03 T-Mac
11- 99/00 Shaq
12- 97/98 Karl Malone

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean he was one of the best if not the best from the early to middle 00’s.

by oblivionspocket on Nov 5, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

whoops...

..yeah.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What does he mean by

fitting the generic mold of the 86 Celtics? Does he mean they have to share styles of play and positions with the players who were on that roster?

I’d probably pick KG over Pippen(Simmons has called KG a super PIppen, so by his own thinking, KG should be on the team over Pippen) Although I suppose you could ask if the 94 bulls would have played better with KG instead of Pippen as their star player.

 I’d also prefer him to Walton, McHale, and Kareem. I’m too young to have seen them play and am also a huge homer though. I’d even pick him over Duncan because he has similar numbers to Duncan and his greatest skill (freakishly flexible defensive ability) isn’t quantifiable. Strategically, the freakishly flexible defensive ability means that if you start with KG, you could go in many more directions with the rest of the lineup. If you start with Duncan, you still have some flexibility, but not as much.

by oblivionspocket on Nov 5, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He seems to view...

…the 86 Celtics as the pinnacle of basketball. This is the primary reason that I think he’d be exactly like McHale if he were given an NBA GM spot.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's weird

That McHale didn’t factor defense into his thinking because that was a huge part of what made his Celtics teams good. If it’s true that he could guard 4 positions, it’s weird that he’d handpick Al Jefferson to play his role and Randy Foye to play the Dennis Johnson role.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 5, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't blame you

if you’re too young to have seen Kareem play. Even if you had seen him at the end of his long career when he was efficient on offense but soft. But in his prime Kareem was the man. I will let this pic provide the explanation as to why I would take Kareem over KG in a heartbeat (it may make you think twice about using the term “protecting the rim” too lightly).

by dropstep on Nov 5, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've only seen the highlight videos....

….but I wish I could have seen the Bucks in his rookie year.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 5:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The rookie year was too early for me,

but my first hoop memories were of worshipping him on the Bucks.

by dropstep on Nov 5, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t always agree with Dave Berri but I think he sums it up nicely here:

i remember thinking that exactly when i read that article. kind of silly how much people knock KG for not covering all his fingers in rings, when he’s had cassell and spree compared to duncan’s parker and manu. unsurprising that when he plays on a team with top notch players, he immediately proceeds to win championship.

he and duncan are remarkably close in terms of individual play, and i’d probably give the edge to garnett over the course of his career.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Nov 5, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan won a title before Parker and Manu, and another when they were 1st/2nd year players.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

with better players than KG ever had. parker and manu were just an example. he’s always had the better supporting cast (until boston, of course).

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Nov 5, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure that there’s a noticeable difference between guys like Mario Elie/Avery Johnson/Aging Robinson and Terrell Brandon, Pre-foot-problems Wally, and Joe Smith. In any case, Duncan had a legit supporting cast for two of his titles, but it still wasn’t in Boston KG’s category. His first two titles came with a cast that was about like KG’s in Minnesota. When KG had those guys around him, it was one-and-done every year.

by Andy G on Nov 6, 2009 7:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know you weren't just comparing

an aging Robinson to Joe Smith. While it is not leaps and bounds apart, Duncan still had a slightly more favorable cast around him during his first championship than KG had with Cassell and Spree. Not by much, but also remember that Cassell went down to injury. Had he not, would KG have won the championship that year? We will never know, but I think that would change the perception greatly if things had gone differently that year.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 6, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Some KG fans have a revisionist history about how terrible his teammates supposedly were. They rarely (but sometimes) made All-Star teams, but there were plenty of decent veteran players around Garnett. The problem was that he didn’t have a superstar scorer to take the offensive pressure off of him. That was supposed to be Marbury, but unfortunately that didn’t work out. KG couldn’t carry the offensive load with good but not great producers around him.

There’s no question that Duncan won multiple titles in that exact same situation — he was the best offensive and defensive player on his team and he led them to championships.

by Andy G on Nov 6, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

let me ask you this

Which set would you rather have. Parker and Manu or Cassell and Spree? Would you trade Parket & Manu for Cassell and Spree? I know I wouldn’t. And that is exactly my point.

Not to nit pick, but all of your responses which are supposed to refute opposing views are a little general and tend to skim over some important details. Unless you would do the trade above, you can’t really say that KG and Duncan got different results out of the exact same situation. Hell Parker/Manu and Cassell/Spree even played the same positions.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 6, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just to make my point clear, I’ll show you the lineup of Duncan’s first championship team:

Avery Johnson
Mario Elie
Sean Elliott
Tim Duncan
David Robinson

Duncan earned Finals MVP honors, averaging 27.4 points and 14.0 rebounds in the 5-game series win over the Knicks.

Robinson was still a good player that year, averaging 15.8 points and 10.0 rebounds per game. But that’s a far cry from his MVP days of 29.8 points per game.

There was one star player on that team, and it was Tim Duncan. If for some weird reason, you feel that Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott were noticeably better than Terrell Brandon and Wally Sczerbiak, that’s fine and you’re entitled to your opinion. The point is, that Spurs team won the championship, while the Wolves were stuck in a 7 or so year stretch of one-and-dones.

The next title team, in 2003, had the following lineup:

Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen/Manu Ginobili
Stephen Jackson
Tim Duncan
David Robinson

Now, in 2009, that looks like an exceptional team. But, it was 2003.

Duncan averaged 24.1 points and 17.0 rebounds per game in that Finals, again earning MVP honors.

David Robinson was 37 years old. He averaged 8.5 points and 7.9 rebounds per game, that year.

Tony Parker was a whopping 21 years old, that year. How many teams have won titles with a 21-year old point guard?

Rookie Manu Ginobili was pretty good, but still a rookie. His 13.2 points per game is not near his high-quality seasons of 20+ ppg, as we now think of him.

And 24-year old Stephen Jackson was a steady player, averaging roughly 11 points 3 assists per game. Again, a nice player, but nothing like the borderline All-Star that he has become with age and experience.

So, in summary, these two championship teams had exactly one superstar player. There is no way to refute this. At least not logically. So don’t play the card that Duncan had all kinds of help that Garnett never had. These teams were Tim Duncan and supporting cast. Two championships.

by Andy G on Nov 6, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Couple points

1. In comparison to the first spurs team, which wolves team are you comparing them too?

Brandon (wolves)
Peeler (wolves)
Wally (wolves)
KG (Push)
Rasho (edge Spurs)

However you are overlooking some very key facts. The spurs also had a bench of Terry Porter, Malik Rose, and Antonio Daniels. Which was significantly better than the wolves depth. This coupled with the fact that the wolves advantage over the spurs in the backcourt was very slight at each position while the ability of the spurs to take advantage in the interior created an overall push at the starter level. But as the lakers proved last year…depth wins championships. From top to bottom, the Spurs had alot more talent. At that point the spurs benchs outperform.

Two , Brandon was a glass man and was shortly replaced by Billups during their playoff runs. Do you know remember how thin the wolves had been at the point? They had KG bring the damn ball up.

As to 2003, unless you think that Robinson was worse than Kandiman, I don’t even know where you are going. The problem with that team was that Cassell got injured and we had no quality depth.

parker was in year 3, Manu had played overseas for a while (not a real rookie). Stop trying to make a splitting hairs issue look so damn black and white. Poor organizations don’t win championships because they can’t build deep cohesive teams. They make too many mistakes that each successive year’s team has to pay for….enter the wolves. The Spurs, while not all star studded had complete rosters with quality depth. No team gets more out of their reclaimation projects like the spurs. That is the reason the spurs won two championships to the wolves 0.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 6, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not trying to be a smartass or anything — but you said I was making general comments, so I felt the need to use stats and player-names to explain how Duncan won two championships with an ordinary group of teammates. Aside from Hakeem, there hasn’t been another player to do that in my lifetime. Given that Duncan was doing this, while Garnett was losing in the first round with his group of ordinary teammates, it’s fairly compelling evidence that he was the superior player during their respective primes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html

Parker was in his second year in 2002-03 when SAS won that title. Also, he was barely 21 when the Finals came around. He was only 20 for most of that season.

I agree that depth matters, but disagree that Malik Rose and senior-citizen Terry Porter were anything beyond typical rotation/reserve players. Every team, including all of Garnett’s, had those.

by Andy G on Nov 6, 2009 5:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

missing the point

I think that something no one is asking is WHY Corey Brewer had the ball in his hands at the end of a game where the Wolves absolutely needed a bucket. It’s one thing to have faith in the talents of your players, it’s another to let it blind you into leaving your team in a tactically weak position to score. Kurt Rambis has been fantastic so far, but Corey being in the game at that point was a mistake.

Even had he not been tied up, where was Brewer headed? Toward a travel or an off balance 17-footer, or a running floater. In any event, the Wolves still probably lose.

And for the record I agreed with the call made-it appeared to me that Big Ticket got ball first and then the arm contact came … a great defensive play no matter how you slice it. It would have been a good play had it been a foul, too.

Blaming the refs, as usual , is a mistake. This loss is on us, but losing to the best team in the NBA is nothing to feel ashamed about.

by voiceofharlanspast on Nov 5, 2009 10:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

sorry, man

but you can’t get me to admit that a bear hug is a “great defensive play.”
our players do that = foul gets called.
if you couldn’t see a slant in the reffing at the end of the game, that’s a bummer…not saying the t-wolves would’ve won the game without that slant, but it was definitely there.
superstars get the call…big surprise….

by davechisholm on Nov 5, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sure there's a slant

a slant towards the team making the aggressive plays. one team’s superstar PF/C is settling for 20 foot jump shots, the other’s is taking the ball straight to the rack, and the refs have watched him, time and again, draw a foul at will. and he did it last night too. everything the celtics did was above board. the more aggressive team gets the call at every level of basketball, including the NBA. the celtics flat out took the game away from us, and they didn’t need anyone’s help to do it.

 i still think the right call was made at the end of the game. but even if KG did foul him, that’s still a good foul. so, overall, it’s a great play because any of the outcomes are good for the celtics.

by voiceofharlanspast on Nov 5, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that's what happened last night

When Pecherov, Brewer, Flynn, etc., did make those aggressive plays to the basket, they were not rewarded with foul calls like the Celtics were.

And I don’t think a reach-in on a drive that may or may not have ended in a basket is a good foul, especially when the Celtics were in the penalty. Brewer, a pretty good FT shooter, would’ve had two FTs to tie instead of a somewhat out of the control lay up, which Brewer has certainly missed in the past.

by TimAllen on Nov 5, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so you really think...

…that, throughout that game, the celtics were the more aggressive team? all things considered, we slapped around one of the elite teams for 3.5 quarters. doesn’t that mean ANYTHING when regarding momentum calls?
and how the eff would that have been a good foul? the celtics were up two with a few ticks left, so garnett BEAR HUGS a guy? how is this smart defense without referee intervention?
i’m totally baffled.

by davechisholm on Nov 5, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought they looked pretty lethargic. If you define “more aggressive” as chippier and more willing to clobber guys and get away with it, then I guess you might have a point, but that opens a whole other can of worms. Namely, should we be coaching our players to just beat the crap out of the other team, because we will eventually get rewarded for it and be able to rake guys on the arms on drives, hold them down during jump balls, set moving screens etc.?

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry, but i’m sort of confused.
are you saying the wolves were more willing to clobber guys or the celtics were?
by aggressive, i mean that we hustled…i don’t mean we beat up on the other team (yeah, i should’ve used a different verb than ‘slapped around’).

by davechisholm on Nov 5, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Celts were chippy, the Wolves were hustling. I was agreeing with you :)

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to point out

that Rambis is also trying to show confidence in Brewer to aid his development. We may disagree in that right now we want to see our team pull off the win, but Rambis and Co have been very upfront in what their intentions are. Notice how in at least two of the last three games Brewer has attempted big shots at the end.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Confidence?

I was not aware that Brewer needed confidence. At 16 shots per game so far this year he is in the company of only players who have significant confidence in their scoring abilities, and only in a few instances are they mistaken. I’d like Corey to learn his role in the offense, which is the lesson Rambis is trying to instill in Flynn more so than he is trying to build Jonny’s confidence.

by dropstep on Nov 5, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He only yanks

Jonny when he makes poor decisions…not when they don’t go well. Which is exactly why Brewer is still in there. He doesn’t take a lot of ill advised shots. his placement is good, so Rambis lets him take those. Rambis is trying to build up his players into smart players so when they have the talent they do what they are supposed to. Winning (and we may disagree about this) is far down on his totem pole, if you know what I mean.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, but...

You’ve got a dozen guys suited up and only 5 can be on the court for the final play. Why should Brewer be out there? Are his feelings more sensitive than everyone else on the roster? Even if team building is more important than winning, how does that translate into Corey being on the floor with his league worst (almost) shooting %? If Corey doesn’t understand the inherrent risk of allowing him to handle the ball in the waning seconds perhaps he does have too much confidence right now.

You are right about the way Rambis makes decisions, and I agree with his approach. Flynn over dribbling is a decision making mistake, not necessarily an outcome based problem. I’d like Corey to change my mind about him taking a wide open jumper as a decision mistake as well. We’ll see.

by dropstep on Nov 5, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My guess

and this is purely speculation that Rambis has some players flagged as having more potential and so long as they haven’t been playing like crap and making poor decisions he will leave them on the floor during crunch time. Just a guess but it would seem to go with his overall MO IMO

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably

But if they Wolves needed a 3 point shot, wouldn’t he bring out the correct personnel for the situation? I’d like to think there’s a “need 2 points” squad as well to trot out there. Of course, last time we needed 3, who was it who answered the call? Again, more a decision making problem than a lack of confidence issue on Corey’s part.

by dropstep on Nov 5, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The refs played a role, they did, but the Wolves were in that position

Seeing Al take two long jumpers from the same spot toward the end, there, should be enough for the young Wolves to take some blame. They got themselves to that position in which officials could call a jump ball on a sumo wrestling leverage move by Garnett. (It was a really shaky call. Reverse the two players and tell me with the game on the line that the refs wouldn’t call it a foul.)

Brewer…. Stop-n-Pop has been as eloquent as anyone. I don’t want to joke about it, though during a game I really enjoy the entertainment value of the kid.

Let’s say this: For all that he’s got a wonderfully, goofily coachable attitude, I don’t think certain things about the kid are “coachable” in that expecting them to change is optimistic. When we see Zach Randolph take an airball three with the game on the line, we attribute it to bad attitude though the usual youtube clip people cite actually seems like simple cluelessness and Z-bo’s being unaware of the shot clock. Brewer makes those same kinds of decisions. Two years ago, same opponent, the in-bounds play where he let time run out and turned it over. Right? He’s wildly, wildly inconsistent about everything he does with the ball.

At some point I think that becomes like a baseball player with no plate discipline. You can’t coach that away, really, or tell him to be more patient. By the time people reach the bigs, they either have a good eye or they’re “aggressive” at the plate.

by feral on Nov 5, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the key

is eventually finding a good shot creator (and maker) on the wing. This will limit Corey’s attempts to 10 or less per game, while still deriving all of the good things he brings to the table. Unfortunately Pavs, Wilkins, and Gomes just don’t offer much and Brewer ends up being the guy having to take the shots. I’d like to see Rambis loosen the reigns a bit on Jonny Flynn as the season wears on. He seems like a guy that could score more, but I think Rambis wants him to first learn how to get the offense flowing.

by Rascal Flatts on Nov 5, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is nothing harder than

being a scoring PG. Score too much and then you aren’t involving your teammates. Don’t score enough…well you cease to be a scoring PG. Very fine line that one.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree with you,

but when your other two options on the perimeter are Corey Brewer and Ryan Gomes, there is only so much involvement that can be deemed as productive. I’m all for developing the right habits for Jonny Flynn early and often, but I think eventually he has to be given a little more rope. And in the event we get a real scoring threat on the wing, he can dial it back again, having been imbued with the know-how of running the triangle.

by Rascal Flatts on Nov 5, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I Love You Man, But Please

S/n/P, I love your site. Read everything you write. Agree with most everything you say. But, please. Do me a favor.

STOP LISTENING TO THAT IDIOT BARREIRO.

Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.

by SBG on Nov 5, 2009 10:58 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

It's him...

…Hannity, Hugh Hewitt, or Jason Lewis. I’m usually in the car at that time and I have already heard enough MPR for the day and I’m looking for talkers.

I used to enjoy his show for the good guests and solid book recommendations but at this point I listen just to be entertained by disagreeing with a large chunk of what he says. He’s completely devolved into a caricature at this stage in his show. In a sense, I guess this is his job and he’s doing it well, but I just wonder how many people listen to him for the same reason I do: simply to disagree with something and to wonder how bad it can get. That, to me, is pretty entertaining at that point in the day.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've found that

sometimes driving in silence with your thoughts can be pretty nice, actually.

by LoveTo on Nov 5, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Ditto

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Nov 5, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree...

…for the first hour or so of driving, but I spend A LOT of time in the car and at that point in the day I can personally attest to the fact that being bombarded with nonsense can be a good thing when the caffeine starts to wear off and you’re on a 2 lane country road.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

especially towards the evening

in deer country. I will never sleep in the frontseat of a car again…

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's really bad...

…with all of the corn still standing. Normally deer don’t have that type of shelter on the eve of deer hunting season. They are typically back in the woods and off the main roads. Some of these fields have significant acreage of corn still standing right next to the road and the deer are just popping out of nowhere. I can’t wait until 500,000 Minnesotans with guns start to thin them out a bit.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lets not forget

the thousands who hunt with bows.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 5, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Alas

I know what you mean S-n-P, but I do wish that the monstrosity that is Barreiro (and his ilk of dumb shock jock) could go away once and for all.

I was sooo delighted when he lost his Strib job. I’m rooting for him to lose the KFAN job as well and go somewhere else.

So, I’m grudgingly willing to accept you listening to him…so long as you never, ever, ever respond to a phone survey saying that you do.

Deal?

by Django Z on Nov 5, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a deal...

…I’ll tell them I listen to KDWB.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What I cannot abide

is his constantly returning to the same entrenched schtick about the Wolves “country club” — while his own show has long since turned into a chorus of agreement between Dan and his producer type, who has no original thoughts of his own. Physician, heal thyself.

Barreiro was far better with Chad as an equal foil back in the day.

by feral on Nov 6, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Development

The last few years, I’d be upset after a game like last night, because it would be one of the few opportunities for the wolves to upset a great team. Essentially the high point in their season. Like the wins against the suns a couple of years ago.

This year, this loss feels like a stepping stone to better things. I’m very excited for the return of Kevin Love. This squad could play .500 ball once he gets back in game shape. Next year could be interesting if the wolves can add a couple more key pieces….

by DR_JPK on Nov 5, 2009 12:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Rudy Gay on this team

Because I think he’s a perfect fit for the offense.

Corey’s shooting is kind of a catch 22 though. Because the truth is they are good shots. He’s getting good looks, he’s hitting the gaps when he’s supposed to hit them and he’s shooting when the triangle says he’s supposed to shoot. He’s just….not a good shooter.

Now if we compare Brewer and Gay….he and Corey are very similar players…there’s small differences in their rebounding, passing, etc, but ultimately the payoff is that Rudy trades a portion of Corey’s defense for the ability to hit all the shots Corey keeps missing.

I mean, if you take the last three games and switch Corey with Rudy…it’s very easy to see Rudy out there running the same plays Corey runs and getting the same looks Corey gets….and Rudy is a proven shooter and scorer.

Seems very ideal to me.

by Oceanary on Nov 5, 2009 1:13 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Just imagine Rudy Gay...

….getting 16-20 shots/game instead of Brewer. Brewer can then do his hustle thing with fewer shots and focus on defense and rebounding. Gay is also only 23 or 24. He’s right in the Wolves’ wheel house.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How about..

the size/length/athleticism advantage of Brewer at sg, Gay at sf.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and then hope that they can throw in a certain...

…6’4" point guard with a 6’9" wingspan in 2-3 years.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If that happens

I promise you I will fly to the US and become a season ticket holder.

As long as a certain 6’4’’ point guard brings a Mr. Henk Norel with him, because as we all know, that man is the future of the franchise.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was just thinking that myself

There’s a lot of appeal to being able to start two 6’9" guys who are both potential lock down defenders on the wings.

I know Rudy has his heart and effort questioned a lot, but I really don’t see much of a problem there. Memphis is a terrible place to try and develop talent….they have a revolving door of coaches, their owner has no idea what he wants, and now there’s all sorts of ego problems in the locker room.

Given what I’ve seen out of Rambis and his coaching staff, I’m confident we can unlock Rudy’s potential if we can manage to sign him.

by Oceanary on Nov 5, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Memphis

I wish they would play their games on tv here in Australia, they must be the most entertaining team to watch. They were leading the league in lowest assist average last year I think and then they add Iverson and Randolph. Pure comedy genius.

It’s like a game of entertaining basketball based purely on schadenfreude!

I do think they’ve got a very good group of young players though, too bad about the situation.

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The game they played against the Kings..

….was one of the most entertaining games I’ve watched in a long, long time. It was amazing.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you put Evan Turner at the 2 and Gay at the 3, with Brewer as your primary bench guy at both spots, coming in to wreak defensive havoc.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If we get Rudy Gay, I’d prefer to keep starting Brewer and use that pick on a running big man (Derrick Favors, Ed Davis, etc)

Brewer’s not really suited to a bench role. His game is 90% intangibles, and bench roles are really more about sheer statistical production.

by Oceanary on Nov 5, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Depends where we pick, so I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t think we could do much better than Turner aside from moving up, but that’s assuming we’ll probably be in the 5-8 range based on record which is no guarantee. I just think Turner’s going to be a total stud who gets overrated by flashier prospects, exactly like Roy.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree re: Brewer

Whether he makes it or not, I don’t know — but his role is a starter’s. He’s the opposite of a Ben Gordon or Randy Foye, who go in the game to blow up for a stretch of scoring when the more structured first-team offense is in the game.

Brewer, in a perfect world, where he learns how to calm down and knock down wide open shots, is the kind of guy that starts and finishes the game.

I love the idea of getting a Rudy Gay, adding Ricky Rubio, and drafting a third big man like Derrick Favors. I think Ricky Rubio could perhaps do what Nash did in Phoenix, by way of pushing the tempo to a point that you no longer need much size up front. That would be ideal for what the Wolves have started to build.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That’d be a hell of a fun team, though I think you still lack a #1 perimeter guy. From what I’ve heard, Gay doesn’t have the handle to reliably create anything other than contested jumpers, so you’d basically be going to Al for a bucket in crunch time.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Nov 5, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or you count on Flynn or Rubio driving and creating a shot for themelves or an open shot for a teammate that can’t create his own shot.

by Ebomb on Nov 5, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Therein lies one of the problems with Rubio

He isn’t great at creating his own shot. He has a half-way decent set-shot 3 and he’s pretty good at getting to the rim. But anything in between (pull-ups, floaters, etc.) seems like something he just doesn’t have in his repetoire. This is where Flynn shows great potential. I love the fact he’s shown us a pretty versatile way of scoring. I’ve seen him do it at the line, behind the arc, at the rim, and in between as well. I think he has solid potential as an end of game threat. I still love Rubio, but this is hole in his game.

by Rascal Flatts on Nov 5, 2009 4:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But the beauty of the triangle is...

…if you run it right, it creates all the shots for you. You just have to hit them.

by Oceanary on Nov 5, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Seemed like...

This game turned a bit offensively when Jefferson landed awkwardly after shooting. Perkins wasn’t stopping him to that point and he was being aggressive, but after that, it was mostly jump shots and the team got bailed out by Pech’s big night.

I noticed the ref thing the first game of the post-KG era, when breathing on ‘Melo or AI was considered a foul. It’s an unnecessary hierarchy that directly leads to good teams mailing it in against bad teams in the regular season and not getting punished for it.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 5, 2009 1:28 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I remember that game, too.

Iverson got calls all night, and we lost a close one, if I remember right.

by Andy G on Nov 5, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the game

They were sharp offensively and led after 3 quarters but were doubled up at the FT line (38-19). Iverson went 15-16 from the line.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 5, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just saw the highlights for the game

they showed the play were Flynn went to double on Garnett and lost Rondo and he got an easy lay up under the hoop. Rambis was going absolutely nuts at Flynn for losing his man!

by Dulluz on Nov 5, 2009 1:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Was this photo of the refs used on purpose??

The ref on the right appears to be foreshadowing what they planned to do to the Wolves last night (see right hand).

by Rumblebee on Nov 5, 2009 10:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

;)

nope, it’s just the first one that came up in an AP search

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 5, 2009 11:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

See no evil?

Speak no evil?

Scratch no evil?

by uncle rico on Nov 6, 2009 12:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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