Adding to the Wolves Dictionary
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 10, 2009 8:00 AM CST
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PrintLet's begin with the commenting call of the year:
(Hand claps.)
Interestingly enough this is exactly what my daughter said to me while watching the game and I'm pretty sure it was in the minds of the couple hundred or so people who decided to head on out into the snow and make their way to the Target Center.
For almost exactly 2 1/2 quarters the Wolves played some of their best ball of the season. Here, take a peak at the Game Flow (picture borrowed from our excellent sister site At The Hive)
The Wolves were humming in the late 2nd quarter. Their offense was a Midway Machine and Jonny Flynn and Ramon Sessions were bouncing off of everyone and everything like a pinball. While this game featured what is likely the best 1/2 from Flynn (7 points on 3-4 shooting with 7 assists and only 1 TO), the team really went apes%#t when Ramon Sessions was on the court, going +6, +6, 0 and -1 in his 4 stints on the court. In one of them, he racked up 4 assists in just over 2:30 of action. Sessions was also brought into the game at two critical junctures. First, he saw action at the very end of the 2nd quarter right after the Hornets tossed off a 7-2 run. Look up at the Popcorn GameFlow. See the 2nd 7-2 run in the 2nd quarter? See the 12-3 run that ended the quarter? The peak of the Hornets run is almost exactly where Sessions entered the game. To be fair, Flynn played pretty much the same role in the earlier 7-2 Hornets run followed by an 8-0 Wolves run but take a look at the Hornets peak in the late 3rd. Sessions came in right around that time, calmed the Wolves down and was subbed out and not to be seen again with just over 3 minutes gone in the 4th.
I get that Jonny Flynn is a first round pick and that this season is about giving young players exposure to highly leveraged situations. Young players on bad teams need a trial by fire. I completely get that. What I don't get is that Ramon Sessions is a young frickin' player who is better than Jonny Flynn. He's a better defender (which would have, you know, helped a bit on the key play of the game where Flynn was torched by Chris Paul just seconds after seeing pretty much the same play fail because Paul couldn't cleanly handle the catch), he's a superior facilitator at this point, and he's building a pretty solid sample size of evidence showing that the Wolves are better with him on the court rather than Jonny. I get the trial by fire but at some point targets of opportunity have to be taken advantage of (especially in close games) and there is no reason on god's green earth why the young, talented and superior defending Ramon Sessions shouldn't have been on the court with a 1 point lead against a squad with the best point guard in the game. Flynn deserves a lot of time as a highly drafted rookie on a losing team but you put your best players on the court in that situation. No exceptions. No worrying about fragile egos or confidence. You play to win and how you handle your rotations says a lot about your commitment to that basic fact.
My beef here is that I'm not sure whether this is questionable coaching rather than questionable philosophy. I view Flynn's selection in the first place to be somewhat philosophically questionable so right now I lean towards the latter rather than the former but at some point the previously-mentioned targets of opportunity add up to a couple of wins and then...well, here's hoping it doesn't get that far.
Getting around to the title of this post, this game featured a few key items that should be placed in the vocabulary of any Wolves fan, casual or not. First:
brewsist (br
-s
st)
n. brewsist
- A pass that would otherwise be an assist were it not for the inability of the recipient to make the resulting shot.
- A tasty dime unfulfilled by Corey Brewer
v. brewsisted
- To make a pass to a person who will surely miss the shot
As in: Jonny Flynn and Ramon Sessions had several brewsists last night as Corey Brewer went 5-13 from the floor while missing 4 layups. Yes, layups.
It has to be a confidence thing right now, right? Just 2 weeks ago we were talking about how Brew was looking like a functional NBA rotation player and now it looks like he can't catch, dribble, shoot or make a layup. His defense isn't that good and there are only so many ways you can hide him on the offensive end of the court when the game is on the line. The problem last night was that time and time again the ball was swung to him and he was unable to do anything productive with it. He missed his first 4 free throws (ending up 1-6 from the line....game, set, match). He missed bunny layups. He lost the game for the Wolves on the wing. With just a modest amount of wing play the Wolves walk away with that game.
Since this post is kind of running on a bit and is going a bit negative (and there is still more snow to be shoveled) I'll save the second dictionary entry for another game post (as it will be sure to happen again: The Jonny Stop) and take a moment to give some praise to Big Al Jefferson.
The Wolves dominated the paint last night. Sometimes...wait for it...at both ends of the court. To Al's great credit, last night was the first time I can remember him being a completely complimentary part of the offense. Now, as the main catch in the KG trade this might seem like a bad thing, but it's not. Al passed the ball well and at half time he made what I first thought was an innocuous statement (and I'm paraphrasing): "Coach just tells me to pass it to the first open guy I see." He did and when he did the Wolves moved the ball like gangbusters and didn't get bogged down in a 1/2 court game that doesn't fit the rest of the personnel on the team. I'll go back to the question of basketball philosophy: Can Al Jefferson be the 2nd best player on a team being built as an up-tempo squad or do you build around his considerable 1/2 court post scoring talents? Can he improve his defense and passing to the point where he can fit in as something more of a complimentary player than a guy you build your entire team around? This, I think, is the main question surrounding David Kahn's approach to the roster. He himself has said that Al could be the 2nd best player on a championship team. The Wolves are still in search of their A1 option but how do you deal with your Big Dog until the arrival of Basketball Jesus? Is this a risky approach? Is it a flawed philosophy that hangs its hat more on luck than anything else? We'll just have to wait and see.
Until later.
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If Al can play like he did in the first half
and post up in the post and immediately pass it out to a similarly talented wing play (I assume that would be the #1 player) yes he definitely can. After watching the first half, Al can play like that and still get his. Except his will now be on much easier shots with less effort from him. Which oddly enough will leave a little more energy on the defensive end. IMO.
Al will never be a great defender, but unlike alot of players, he doesn’t need to be.
For now, you just try to get all of your players to play this way. You won’t win alot of games but you will see them dominate a team for a short stretch when some players are playing beyond themselves and then let their opponents back in when reality reasserts itself.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 8:20 AM CST reply actions
The rule is the rule, and I'm completely OK with the ruling, which was
correct—Brewer’s shot was late. However, it’s really quite bizarre that the NBA has a rule whereby the game can continue from that point, any number of things can happen, and then 2 minutes later when the clock stops, they can go back and take away points. I mean, things might have been quite different had they made the call differently at the time, and yet they let that next 2 minutes stand, but take away the basket? Strange rule. There’s a reason other sports don’t change things once the game proceeds.
As for Flynn, there are certainly flashes that he’s getting better. But really, get Sessions on the floor in the end of game situation, please. What makes me nervous is not that Rambis plays Flynn too much, but that I’m not sold on the organization’s evaluation techniques. It’s more than possible that they don’t get that the team runs better when Sessions is in the game.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 10, 2009 8:23 AM CST reply actions
That's a gold standard
There’s a reason other sports don’t change things once the game proceeds.
Exactly. Subsequent action does depend in part on the score, refs. In football a team might decide to run and control the clock; if the officials remove seven points from their total five minutes later, that’s simply not fair to them. Maybe basketball seems less sensitive to that sort of a interference, but the principle is the same.
I’m going to go out on a limb, though, and ask for lots more of this sort of decision. If at some point during a game, a rift in the space-time continuum should open and the goateed Evil Spock version of Corey Brewer should start making jump shots and free throws — F*@# it, keep playing!
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
How about the string of charges?
I could only listen to bits on the radio, but at one point in the second half did the refs not call at least three charges against Minnesota players in a span of a handful of possessions? All of which involved James Posey drawing the call?
There was an air of surreality to that game.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Yeah...
…what was really weird about it was that they came right after Love was called for a blocking foul that probably should have been either a no-call or a charge. The NOLA guys all hit the deck hard but Love stood up on his attempt to draw a charge. I guess he didn’t sell it hard enough.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
He needs longer hair
In order to do a proper soccer flop, one needs tresses to toss around. (I’m pretty sure that’s the only plausible explanation for Mike Miller’s ’do.)
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
He also needs to growy a scruffy euro beard and stop showering, then fall down like he took one in the face from prime Tyson when someone touches him. Stupid Love, thinking he’d be rewarded for making the correct play and not being a pussy Euro flopper about it. I figured he’d get more benefit of the doubt in his 2nd year, but that clearly isn’t the case. Keep fightin the good fight Love, eventually you’ll be rewarded. It’s the way of the league.
Seriously though, those calls were terrible. Posey was clearly inside the no-charge zone on both of the charges he took that I can recall. One was just a bad call on the refs as Posey had his foot inside the circle, which was bogus. For the second one, I’ll admit I’m not familiar with the rule about a low box charge, but if you watch the play in slow mo, Brewer clearly catches it outside the paint but then lands inside the paint and takes off. That seems pretty sketchy to me, and easily chalked up to the ubiquitous reputation call that always seems to go against us.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
The NBA...
…has a fantastic video rule book that illustrates the low block rule:
http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=31
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
That’s cool. Unfortunately I’m at work and can’t check it out. Was the call made correctly yesterday?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Check out the third one down on that list
“On this play, the offensive player extends his leg into the defensive player in an effort to create space.” Ha!
charges, blocking fouls, reviewed shot clock violations, oh my!
so, I know this has been covered at great length already, but I have to throw in my bit. I was at this game and as an avid fan, I paid close attention the entire game. During this stretch of fouls that is being referred to, the refs consistently called blocking fouls on us when we were in position to take charges below the basket (but outside the protected area), but when the Hornets players would get in the way of a drive to the rim, we were consitently called for the charge. Time and time again we are jobbed by the refs. When will they call a fair game that we are involved in? Two other notable bad calls: counting Peja’s 3-pointer when there was a mysterious (still unknown) foul away from the ball, and taking Brewer’s two points away because they later reviewed it to determine that he hadn’t released it before the shot clock buzzer went off. Since when is this even reviewable? I thought that the only reviewable shots in basketball are end of quarters on buzzer beaters??? Only would a Minnesota team get jobbed on that. In fact, it’s happened to us twice this year already. I would agree that there was just a sense of “did David Stern predetermine this game” in the air… especially in light of the Donaghey saga. Unfortunately most of the “charges” we got called for happened on the other side of the court so I couldn’t tell for sure if they were valid, but regardless, three of them in a row has to be questioned. I clearly saw that the blocking foul called on Love was a bad call. They also replayed it and he was blatantly outside the protected area. I even saw Jim Petersen complaining to the officials during a timeout after this stretch of fouls. I was livid. Our team played great, we deserved that win, we were not only playing the Hornets, but also against the officials. In part we are to blame as well for missing crucial free throws, and turning the ball over way too much down the stretch. It is good to see the progression of Flynn and Love though. Those two are definitely going to be the cornerstone of this franchise for years to come.
To the greasy, slick-back haired official that did such a terrible job in this game, I hope justice is served to you somewhere down the line. To me, you are just as much a candidate for cheating games as Donaghey ever was. If I made that many errors at my job in a given day, I’d at least expect to be confronted, if not issued a warning of some sort.
I must be an idiot
But after watching the Brewer reply at last 25 times I’m convinced that it’s POSSIBLE that the ball was literally a millimeter away from his hands when the backboard turns red, I thought it was too close to overturn. Maybe the refs are able to zoom but i thought it was very close to being a legitimate shot.
Charges and blocking calls in the NBA are incredibly inconsistent and annoying. It’s a serious problem, but I have no idea as to a solution.
greasy decisions
Didn’t the greasy-haired ref work another recent game where we all got up in arms as a string of questionable and/or clearly wrong calls went against the wolves, with no make-up calls to follow? I could swear he stuck in my head as a bad guy earlier this season. Was it the Boston game with KG’s amazing all-star defense on Corey Brewer’s forearm?
Ken Mauer
Nope, didn’t work the Boston game. Maybe someone can help me remember which (if any) rage-inducing game he did earlier this year, but it’s Minnesota-born Ken Mauer. Maybe overcompensating to make sure no one can accuse him of hometown bias?
That's the rap on him
He’s a relative of Baby Jesus, buy the way, but from the days of Flip Saunders the book on him is that he screws the Wolves to show he isn’t biased. Sid loves him though, so I’m sure he’s OK.
As one who braved the weather to see Chris Paul
I thought the Wolves had it in the bag at the end. As soon as I saw Paul inbounding the ball, I knew exactly what play they were running, and figured it was so obvious the Wolves would shut it down. I’d go so far as to say everyone but Jonny Flynn realized that it was a give and go.
Good post...
Re: Flynn vs. Sessions, I’m a little surprised how many seem to think Sessions is the clear-cut better player. Is it a numbers thing, or something — because when they’re out there, and I’m watching, I never see anything too special from Sessions. Granted, Flynn makes more mistakes, but he’s clearly more of an offensive playmaker than Sessions with the way he attacks the basket and draws defenders. If I’m not mistaken, Hollinger is a huge fan of Sessions. That makes me think that he must have good advanced stats or something, because the eye test doesn’t really show him to be anything special. Flynn is already a decent three-point shooter and Sessions doesn’t even attempt threes. But, I will grant the Flynn-bashers that he is making a lot of costly mistakes, and if you value “winning now” over development, then it would probably be better to sit the rook. I wasn’t a fan of drafting Flynn after Rubio, at all, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the way he can impact games when he’s running hot. Plus, he has a feistiness about him that is a welcome change from the Foye days — in wins vs. Denver and Utah, he was clearly enjoying the opportunity to battle the best PG’s in the game. Randy used to be 4th Quarter Foye against the Grizzlies and Clippers — not so much the playoff contenders.
Agreed on Jefferson — he really played within the flow, last night. Last year, his ball-stopping had some tangible benefits, in that he would convert so often. This year, not so much. Rather than continue to suck, hopefully he’ll play more of a team game while he gets his legs back. If that takes an entire season (and off-season) so be it.
I think I’m done being a Brewer apologist. He just doesn’t know how to play offense. It’s hardly ever true when people say “I could (name any basketball skill) better than (name any NBA player).” But, in Brewer’s case, there are dozens of high school and small college players in Minnesota that have better jumpshots and overall skills than he does on offense. That is a troubling fact, given that he’s an NBA shooting guard. He is a freak of nature in that he’s 6’9" and can run around with so much speed and energy. But he is truly an atricious shooter and he has little or no control over any of his offensive movements. I can’t really bash the draft selection, because I don’t want Al Thornton near any part of a team hoping to win and improve. But, in my opinion, Brew has no future as a productive player. I’ve changed my stance on this considerably, I guess.
As others noted in the game thread, and was shown a few different times on SportsCenter, John Wall was ridiculous, last night. The hype is building fast on this kid.
It's gotta be a confidence thing with Brewer
I feel bad for the kid. He’s clearly thinking way too much out there, as evidenced by his free throw performance, and is letting all of his missed shots (and the booing from the home fans) get into his head. That being said, no one is gonna cut him any slack on the floor and if he wants to stay in the league he better get it together soon.
I would argue that...
the fans weren’t booing, we were just disappointed. You get paid millions of dollars, I would hope you could at least make 75% of your free throws. Especially when the opponent is making a run back into the game. He wasn’t the only one though. In brewer’s defense, he made a lot of great cuts to the basket in last night’s game… something I’ve been waiting to see out of a Wolves player all season. He also added some excitement with at least 2 or 3 dunks off of those cuts. Of course, all this happened in the first half, when we were actually playing basketball.
After watching both Brewer and Ellington play last night
Ellington is the better player and likely always will be. Which pretty much tells me that brewer is at best a bench role player on a good team and what good team has defensive specialists who can’t make layups or hit free throws coming off the bench?
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
at least Ellington
can get hot from the field, play adequate defense and play PG in a pinch, so he serves multiple purposes on a team in providing roster flexibility and added depth. Brewer just has so many flaws that it becomes hard to find a lineup that hides them.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
What did you
see in Ellington that I missed? I saw a guy get beat off dribble steady by a smaller guard (Collison), had no answer to being guarded by CP3 (5-10) on offensive end, can’t dribble and missed shots. Brew is a bench player I agree, I’m not sure Ellington is a rotation player at all.
I have seen a couple of games where Ellington
has been a key contributor. I can’t really say the same about brewer. Keep in mind that he is a rookie, while brewer isn’t.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions
Collison being matched up on Ellison? This is your way to judge?
The two things you’ve just mentioned remind us that Rambis refused to go to the two-PG backcourt we’re interested in despite the Hornets being in one themselves. They had CP3 and Collison together in both the 3rd and the 4th last night. Rambis didn’t play Flynn and Sessions together at all.
(Basically New Orleans could put Paul on Wayne E. because the latter is a rookie and doesn’t have much of a post-up game to exploit his size advantage.)
Ellington’s gradually playing himself into the rotation at off guard, basically in the absence of other real options. Brewer’s one of those unreal options. Defense was always Ellington’s potential demerit, but he hasn’t been anything like the calamity there that Brewer is on offense. This is a rookie, one month in, whose playing time has increased as Corey’s has been falling off. There is a reason for that, too.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Collison's about as quick as Flynn
I agree that it’s wrong to criticize Ellington for not being able to stay in front of him.
I disagree
Ellington is not the better player at this point. He has done nothing to impress me. He missed 2 WIDE open 3 point attempts last night, he doesn’t make any cuts to the basket, he isn’t known for any passing ability, and quite frankly, his play is erratic. Just watch him out there, he is like a mouse on speed.
There's a decent comparison in Wolves' history
I’m a little surprised how many seem to think Sessions is the clear-cut better player. Is it a numbers thing, or something — because when they’re out there, and I’m watching, I never see anything too special from Sessions.
I’ve said before that this situation reminds me of Brandon and Billups, especially during the first season when Billups had signed here as a project.
What you have is a contrast between the smoother character who gets the team into its offense better, in Sessions/Brandon, and the more explosive but rawer talent in Flynn/Billups. It’s a nice combination to have around, but in the earlier iteration the Wolves were forced into two difficult contract decisions (and muffed both of them, thanks so much Mr. McHale).
This time around there’s no time or money pressure, and both of them are healthy. It’s just a matter of deciding how to balance out your developmental goals and so on. I like this spot we’re in.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Yeah, and I kind of like both players. I just don’t watch Sessions, and think “this guy needs to be the starter” with any kind of certainty. They each have strengths and weaknesses, and over time we’ll get a better idea of who the better player is. Flynn can certainly drive to the basket like nobody we’ve had since Marbury. That’s a huge strength that can’t be ignored.
But why doesn't Rambis play the two together more?
That’s my beef. It’s not Flynn starting and ending games as a PG. It’s the fact that with all our problems at the 2, how is it possible that Sessions does not get the green light over both Brew and Ellington when the other team sports a 2-PG lineup. It makes no sense.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 10, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
Hard to say...
Ellington has shown flashes of late that he might be a good off-guard. His skill set is obviously better-suited for that position than either Flynn or Sessions.
Also, Rambis’ coaching history has always included Kobe Bryant. Never have the Lakers had anything remotely close to a small backcourt. Maybe Rambis just doesn’t want to go there. I don’t know.
My question
Is whether or not Sessions looks better sometimes because of the competition he is playing against, or the situations he comes into. It’s not a clean split by any means (meaning that I understand that sometimes he’s playing against the other team’s starters and sometimes he’s in during key moments or with our starters), and please understand that I really like him as a player, but I wonder if he’s got a little bit of the 2nd string QB thing going on right now (as in when your starting QB is struggling everyone’s favorite player is his backup). Sessions does orchestrate the offense better the Flynn, and he might always maintain an edge there, but Flynn’s offensive ability/ceiling is far higher than Sessions’, and the eventual potential dropoff between their abilities to run the offense much smaller.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
I've wondered that as well...
but also, Sessions has been thrown out there with some really bad teammates for most of this season. Particularly when Love was out, he was running with the Oily/Jawai/Hollins/Pavlovic crew. If he came out of that with decent +/- numbers, that’s a tribute to him.
Is It Okay To ...
start complaining that this was yet another game that we should have won? It is a pleasant change from a short time ago when I was bemoaning our complete lack of competitiveness. Still, we will be overmatched enough during this season and we need to show the home folks more progress. Allowing Chris Paul to have an easy layup on the second consecutive out-of-bounds play was unacceptable. He should have been given a hard foul, at least.
2-3 more wins right now
Would make a difference. Play to teach for 36 minutes a night. Play to win for 12. It matters. Not sure Rambis gets that.
Kahn had better
build around AL until the “superstar”, 1st option shows. Clips have been waiting for the “guy” to bring them out of the basement for years. Get some shooters and defenders push the ball up, if nothing early, play through post with AL. Flynn with work on shot and running a half court offense, will be a nice player, not a “superstar”. Rubio, from the 3 games I watched, doesn’t have the shot or athletic ability to be a “superstar”. For all you he’s Kidd guys, no one ever questioned Kidd’s body, quicks & strength coming out of Cal. Hopefully he’ll be a nice piece to a good team. My point is, build around AL, try to win games, be competitive, put a product on the court that beats a disinterested Hornets team and is watchable. If you think that LBJ, Kobe are coming via FA, not happening, u stand a 9 out of 10 chance thru draft of getting a nice player (Flynn, Rubio) not a superstar. Kahn will be in constant wait til next year mode, just like Clips, unless he builds a team around AL and gets lucky with superstar rather than waits and depends on him coming. A true superstar can play any system and still excel, so build a team that can be competitive now and hope a star falls in your lap. I for one, am tired, of all this wait til next year crap and Rambis will learn, Kurt’s been in the NBA for 30 years, just like with 25 yr old Hollins, if he doesn’t have it now, when? Kurt blew that game with no time out in 3rd quarter and having Ellington get beat steady by Collison, put in Sessions.
Collison was 2-5 last night
Your sense of Ellington’s defensive collapse in the 4th is rather overblown. Collison went 2-3 in the fourth quarter. He is a small and ultra-quick point guard with a defensive reputation. Not Wayne’s usual matchup.
Ellington spent 19 minutes on the court last night, going 3-9 for a bad shooting night but adding 5 boards (including a couple of offensive rebounds) and at least one absolutely sweet dish early on.
As far as the ‘How to build a team’ meandering, you’re not describing anything different from what’s actually happening on the floor right now. Your scouting assessments are more half-assed than most, but we’ll forgive you that. All I read is impatience and the general intention to provoke a response.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
It was Collison's
ability to blow by Ellington that got the offense going for Hornets. It’s not numbers that win games it’s making plays. When you take the ball out of CP3 hands and give it to Collison you don’t think the other coach sees something. Ellington can’t handle pressure while handling ball and has more to’s than asts and is shooting terrible. Wolves are NOT building around AL…. Kahn went out and got 3 nonshooting pt guards (Flynn, Rubio, Sessions) and touted Flynn/Rubio as stars and AL as a 2nd 3rd option guy last summer in season ticket meetings. Kahn stated he was in to drafting stars not guys who could compliment AL. Me & many others don’t have tickets this year after those meetings.
Good for you
Me & many others don’t have tickets this year after those meetings.
I don’t understand why you’re upset/impatient then.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Sessions vs. Flynn
I’m not as enamored with Sessions as everyone else seems to be. I like having someone like Flynn out there that is at least a threat to hit an outside jump shot. Looking at the stats, they seem to be pretty even too…
True Shooting Percentage
Flynn: .528
Sessions: .525
Assist Percentage
Flynn: 24.2
Sessions: 23.2
PER
Flynn: 14.1
Sessions: 13.6
Overall, I dont’ think enough is being said about how much Sessions seems to be under-performing compared to last year. I didn’t get to watch him a lot last year, so I’m not sure why it’s happening, but not including Jefferson I would say that no other player on the Wolves is under-performing as much as Sessions.
In general, we the people
like to piss and moan and think we have all the answers and can do a better job. Sessions is a solid pro, but Flynn has already been pretty solid too. Yes he has made rookie mistakes, but he also has the ability to pull something from out of nowhere that I don’t think Sessions has (or at least not displayed this year).
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
I just think Sessions is a better defender at this point . . .
And it speaks to what Rambis is or isn’t doing. I just don’t get why we didn’t have Sessions in on that last play — if we’re trying to get a stop to win a game, why not put your best defensive team on the floor? I understand Flynn needs to learn how to play in those situations and I’m not saying it would have changed things, but at some point you have to show your team that you’re trying as hard as they are.
Same thing on our last possession. Don’t even bring in Jefferson? At least make them think that you might toss it to the post for the patented Al jump hook? How can we consistently NOT give ourselves the best chance to win, when everyone sees it? Aren’t the players going to feel like the coaching staff is either clueless or not trying?
Everyone keeps on overlooking
the fact that Rambis is trying to teach the yound guys (whom they view as the future) how to win not by watching on the bench, but experiencing it themselves. My take on it is that Sessions will be trade bait for any team that has a starter get injured. Which is exactly why he isn’t in at the end.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Last Possession of the game
I think with 1.4 seconds on the clock we could of got a better play. I like Rambis as a coach but i do think that he drew up the wrong play. From my experience coaching and playing with that type of time on the clock and knowing all your options as a coach you need to realize that with 1.4 seconds and your are down 1 point all you need is a basket not a Three. In my opinion I would ALWAYS draw up a play heading towards the hoop. Yes its a tough concept but for real! What draw up something that gives you the ball about 30 ft from the hoop when you don’t have a Kobe that will make the shot.
I understand that they are pro coaches but its all a learning lesson. Its funny because I saw the Warriors (vs. Houston) lose the other day with a few seconds on the clock and it was the same scenario, they drew up a play with led to Monta Ellis catching the ball 40ft out and traveling. Can someone correct me if i’m wrong but the most effective way to win is to have the proper scheme and to practice and then execute.
I’m just not for catching the ball so far away and then the other thing was that we didnt get the ball into the proper persons hands.
Who would you all have been comfortable with shooting the last shot?
- LOVE
- Big Al
- Flynn
- Gomes
- Wayne
- Ramon
- Other???
by GHACAN BLACKSTAR on Dec 10, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
It's the experience
Wayne’s a young player and needs the experience of being forced into a low percentage contested 3 with less than a second left on the clock even though a 2 will win the game. That’s how he’ll learn. It’s a teaching moment.
Or does that only apply to Flynn?
Potentially this was used as a learning experience for ellington
but they could have run a more sensible play for a rookie as well to both try to win and teach. I would agree with that. I’m not mad or anything.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with experience
But give the rookie a better shot. I’m going with the notion that the play wasn’t executed well. So with that as a potentially bad executed play there should always be options.
If read number 1 does not look open, this is the next thing we look for. Have him come off a screen from Love towards the corner three area maybe? I don’t know.
I agree with letting guys win, but do it in a way to where they can actually learn to make a good shot, not make a shot that we practice for fun in our drive ways by counting “3 – 2 – 1”…….
by GHACAN BLACKSTAR on Dec 10, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Unless they can get the ball into Al in that situation...
Can anyone on the team be reasonably expected to get off a quality shot without a good screen or a defensive breakdown? That’s the beef I have with the play: either it was flawed or it wasn’t executed.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Can Jefferson get a shot off
in 1.4 seconds? Seriously. I was thinking about where to go with the inbounds play and I was wondering if Jefferson would have been a viable option due to the clock.
After some complex mathetmatical formulations
Have decided that you cannot pump fake 56 times before a hook shot in 1.4 seconds.
He's the best option
While he’s a different player this year, I can remember at least one game (vs. the Spurs last year) where he either tied a game or gave the team the lead on a catch and shoot. It’s not like he’s getting stuffed a lot; if he only had 1.4 seconds, my guess is the pump fakes wouldn’t happen.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
This has been my thinking all year.
Also in response to Andy G’s post above. Sessions, to me, seems like an ideal point guard to put on a team with a ton of talent around him. But, at risk of being bombarded with adjusted plus-minus stats that I don’t know how to look up or read, Flynn scores better on the eyeball test at least. He’s screwed up pretty royally a couple times, yes, but on a team with very few threats to score, Jonny is one of them.
Flynn
has a higher ceiling and lower floor than sessions. Both play solid on average, with Jonny being much more inconsistent.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
What makes me the most optimistic about Flynn improving on his consistency is that he’s a fighter. He doesn’t seem to get beat down by the losing or getting schooled by CP3 or Deron. If anything he relishes going against those guys (like with CP3 – fool me once the first game, shame on you. Flynn comes back the second game and plays a great first half. Fool me twice (the second half against CP3), well, let’s just say that Flynn’s going to do his darndest to not get fooled like that again by anyone). Flynn just wants to get better, and reminds me a little of KLove last year where these guys need to just try out some things and see what happens at the NBA level. Then they adjust and try it out again. I think Flynn has the potential to be really deadly in this offense, but we probably won’t begin to see it until later in the year.
I really like Sessions a lot, but I just don’t see the same ceiling with him. I don’t see Sessions as a guy who’ll take a team on his back at the end of games. I would agree that he’d be a terrible guy to face if he was running a team with talent on it.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Disappointed on Brew
If he was going to make it, he would have put it together by now.
Concur with the above statement on the original pick by Andy G – I thought he was great at Florida and had big upside.
As strange as it seems
it was a very enjoyable night at the Target Center. Mainly because it started with dinner with my FO friend who I have not seen in quite some time.
Game thoughts first.
I wonder if someone is messing with Brewer’s shot because there is a definite change. The ball is not rolling off his fingers – the ball looks to be in his palm and is being released with a much quicker wrist snap. It was ugly – and far different from what I have previously seen. Normally, his problem has been lower body stability. That looked better but I sure hope it did not come with a change in his release. That would be a huge step backwards. (For him and the team)
2 of the layups were contested, and Brewer needs to initiate contact before shooting to get the foul. I saw some fading last night – not a good pattern either. Final comment on Brewer – 2 of his 4th quarter shots were rushed buzzer beater – not the guy to have taking that shot.
I really liked the Session, Ellington, Brewer, Love, Jefferson rotation at the start of the 4th. That group really moved the ball well and had enough scorers on the floor to take advantage of it. Unfortunately, when Paul came back, Ellington was torched on defense by Collison. But I thought that rotation has some great potential.
I am not sold on Flynn at all. Frankly, we lost the game because we were unsure of what to do to get a basket in crunch time. We ended up with several last second forced shots. Flynn was a big part of that – too much dribbling and time wasting up top, followed by a drive to the basket with little success. Al never saw the ball. I thought when Love came back in, the Hi Lo needed to be more aggressively pursued rather than the high screen and roll. I am not 100% sure that Flynn, at his size, is ever going to be a great finisher at the rim.
The out of bounds play was a travesty. That works in 5th grade – not even in 7th grade. Certainly never in the NBA. I think it goes to show you just how fundamentally unsound some of these young guys are out of college/HS. Too much playground and not enough structured gym time. Flynn has a big learning curve.
Off the court. Looks like the Twolves are spending a tremendous amount of time and energy scouting existing players – far, far more than ever before. Some thoughts that we may not have cap space this summer – because we just may use it up at the trade deadline to restock that way instead. There is some buzz that while the top FA’s will grab the money, the next level will choose location/chance to win over money. Most of these guys have already made quite a bit of money – what’s a few million more in comparison to being on a good team in a good location. That puts us in a difficult spot – making the trade deadline scenario more believable to me.
Most disappointing to me – there are some feelings that we don’t even have 4 players on the roster that will be here in 2 years. In a season that is, in many ways, being sacrificed to player development, I would have hoped to have a larger number of keepers. Even if we bring in superstars, there is still a year or two of working together before a team starts gelling. We may have a longer turnaround time than we all expect.
Lastly, the overseas scouts are not impressed with the coaching Rubio is getting. Too much freelancing by his entire squad which advances Rubio’s strengths (passing, floor vision) without touching his weaknesses (scoring, shooting). Look to see us try and bring him to the US “unofficially” to work with a trainer this summer.
by Just A Fan on Dec 10, 2009 10:44 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Enjoyment
I agree that yesterday’s game (and the few before that) have been far more enjoyable, even though we’ve suffered some pretty tough losses.
The pain of losing is a far better feeling than the apathy induced numbness we dealt with during the month of November.
In re: Flynn
Have to agree with the blown defensive assignment at the end – no excuse for losing the other team’s best player on an inbounds play coming out of a timeout! Bleh!
As for the offensive side, this is probably the first time in his basketball life that Flynn hasn’t been his team’s #1 go-to option. What I saw was indecision – “Do I take it to the rack? Do I pass?” Hopefully, as the season progresses, he will become more sure of himself and his role.
Any more tidbits you can share?
Such as why the team picked up Brewer’s option, is intent on starting him, etc.
What is the story on Sessions and his minimal role?
Did the FO person mention any of the players being looked at? If so, did it leave you excited or depressed?
Does the FO think Kahn is spending time and resources on the right things. Is there a feeling that the ship is heading in the right direction?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 10, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
I'll try and answer
Let me start by saying that the staff has pretty much tossed out any player evaluations from the first 20 games. They felt that the roster and schemes were so influx that it’s not fair to judge anyone. The next 25 games (til trade deadline) are huge.
Brewer’s option was picked up because they wanted to see if he could develop into an NBA starter if given the minutes. The kid has a great work ethic and has a very high basketball IQ. They want to see if the offense skill set develops. He is one facing that critical next 25 games time eval period.
Not directly said, but my conclusion from an hour or so discussion is that Sessions would be starting right now if Kahn had not been so lavish in his praise on Flynn at the draft. The team simply runs better with Sessions than Flynn – in games, in practice, everywhere. But Flynn will be given tons of leeway and lots of minutes as long as he works hard. (I understand that all the guys are working hard – credit to Rambis) I personally see Sessions being traded.
They are doing an evaluation of damn near 100% of the NBA rosters. They are really expecting 2 things to happen at trade deadline – top teams buying pieces and a dozen teams seriously dumping payroll. Some of that is likely to involve 3 team deals which the Twolves are perfectly positioned for. Too early to predict which teams/players, but they are preparing data to handle just about any possibility. Just got the feeling that the trade deadline is being viewed as the bigger opportunity than next summer to restock. (Personally, I agree wholeheartedly)
Your last question is very sensitive. As you remember, most of the FO had 2 year contracts and Taylor simply did not want to pay them off for no work when Kahn was hired. Kahn has reassigned many of them to duties which are not necessarily equal to their previous jobs and/or abilities. Kahn is not a consensus driven guy either. So, most are keeping their feelings to themselves. I betting that my friend would say that the Twolves have found good coaches but are still spinning their wheels on style of play – which directly relates to spinning wheels on players to keep/get.
by Just A Fan on Dec 10, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks for the update and clarification
Good to know. Unfortunately, we won’t know which teams are going to be likely buyers and sellers. I heard that LA is looking to dump bench payroll, but other than that, the two teams that scream salary dump are Philly and NO.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 10, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
I know, right?
Reading that the FO views the trading deadline as a better opportunity than this summer makes me think that there might be some players out there that this team is targeting that aren’t even on our collective radar right now because we don’t think they’re gettable. Iggy, for example? Someone on the Bulls (ahem, Noah, ahem)?
The bit about the reassigned FO members made me realize that I’d completely forgotten about that. Essentially Kahn is working with an assistant coaching staff he didn’t hire/may not even want. Amazing. I am so grateful that Rambis has the assistants he does, as I think it helps him to stay level headed and maintain clarity of vision throughout this process. Hopefully Kahn’s performance will improve (although I’m happy with it so far) once he gets his own guys in.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Thanks much Just A Fan!
Making a deadline move has several advantages.
- You can more directly pick the player you add. Still not easy as they have to be available and you have to have a more compelling offer than the other buyers.
- You know the exact salary impact since the player is already under contract
- You avoid the scenario where you completely strike out or overpay wildly to avoid the impression of striking out
However, trading at the deadline also has distinct disadvantages:
- Best players not available (except in weird Gasol to LAL scenarios)
- You have to give up assets to acquire players vs. just adding them this summer
- If you get a good player you will likely win more in 09-10 resulting in a worse draft pick.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 10, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
Very good to hear...
about the hard scouting work being done. Can’t imagine McHale was ever so diligent or prepared for possibilities.
I think the Flynn/Sessions rotation/pecking order
Should be sussed out by the end of the year. Both guys are worth playing big minutes since both can do a lot of good things to help our team out. Jonny being the playmaking scorer windup-toy that short-circuits ever now and then; Ramon the more solid player whom you know is gonna make a lot of the smart if unspectacular plays and keep the ship straight.
It’s widely agreed that Jonny playing over Ramon is for the benefit of Jonny’s development, sometimes at expense of the team. In looking towards the future we have to ask if Jonny’s mishaps that cost the team wins now will help him win games for us in the future. That’s what I’ll be looking for by the time his relatively impressive rookie season is over. As ugly as he’s looked at times, he’s also been spectacular in spots while being one of the top rookies while playing the toughest rookie position. We know what he have with Ramon, but I forgive Rambis for testing out Flynn so much if it makes him better than Ramon later on.
Props to Sessions
If Sessions is really playing better than Flynn right now, he has been handling the PT well. He knew what he was getting in to when he signed the contract, but you have to think in the back of his mind that he thought he would be able to earn the PT over Flynn. It would be disheartening, no matter what your expectations are, if you feel you are earning your PT but not getting it.
There is a lot of “ifs” there, but I’ve only seen a few games so I didn’t want to make a “all-encoumpassing” statement.
by Cedarpenguin on Dec 10, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Sessions has handled this very, very professionally. That is for sure. Perhaps his agent has deciphered some writing on a wall somewhere that Sessions might get traded, and mentioned to Ramon that he might get to go to a much better situation if he doesn’t raise a big stink about PT (utilizing Kahn’s good for the player, good for us strategy).
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Forgot to add
In the pantheon of Wolves rookies, you gotta be impressed with Flynn. I mean seriously, who else should legitimately rank ahead of him (KG is granted, and it’s understood that the overall level of competition isn’t that great). The only two guys I can really think of are Wally and Stephon Marbury-but both of those guys had much clearer roles on much better teams. I suppose KLove beats him. If I had to make a list of best rookie performances for the Wolves right now:
1. KG
2. Love
3. Some mix of Marbury, Flynn, and ???
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Love vs. Flynn
Love was bad (putting it nicely) at the beginning of his rookie year. He showed a lot of improvement over the course of last season. No reason Flynn can’t do the same. He’s starting off better than Love.
This last point is forgotten way, way too often on this board.
There is lots of raving about Love’s game here, but the fact of the matter is that at this point last year he made me want to shut the TV off. If Flynn improves half as much as Love improved last year, this is a hell of a player.
It can't be forgotten, either
That this team paid him when no one else would. There’s really not a good reason for him to be anything more than disappointed that he’s not playing more. From what he’s said, it seems like that’s what’s happening.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
The other thing we have to remember
Is that since Rambis never plays these two together, Flynn is almost always on the floor when the opposing team’s best players are on the floor and off it when their second unit is in. It’s not unusual on talent deprived rosters for a bench player to have a way better +/- than many of the starters (See: McCants, Rashad circa 07-08). So although in this case Sessions really is the better PG, the fact that one is playing against starters vs. backups exaggerates the true diffence in skill level. I agree with the “eye test” sentiments many others have mentioned. Flynn clearly has the better upside. By the way, I partially blame Jimmy Boeheim and his system for some of Flynn’s carelessness! Had Flynn played for UNC for two years, we’d be seeing a much more refined player right now.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 10, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
Most rookies don't start
It doesn’t mean the teams aren’t invested in their development. Usually it has more to do with the team needs than any other factor. If Sessions was the Wolves starter last year, and put up the stats he did with the Bucks, Flynn would be coming off the bench. Not with the same gap as the CP3/Collison situation, but he would not be displacing a valued starter, regardless of his upside. I just don’t see this in black and white terms, that Flynn is out there starting and closing games, from the most important position on the floor, or he is not being developed.
I think what it is
Is that he’s getting as many “teachable moments” as possible. I think him getting the reins and being given every chance to win or fail is better for his development (and hopefully that means it’s better for our team’s future). Would he still develop in the lesser role you advocate? Of course. It wouldn’t be a terrible idea for wins or development, but I think we’ll be better able to judge this situation with more time. Maybe by the time they think he should be “getting it”, they’ll know whether he’s ready to keep the playing time or whether Ramon gets a bigger share of the PT. Once they get equal footing then we can decide.
OMG - Corey Brewer!
I had such high hopes for Corey Brewer becoming the glue to a championship team. He seems like a great kid who understands the game and works hard. But, boy, is he an embarrassment. I heard David Kahn say at the beginning of the year that we need to learn if Corey Brewer can be a starter in this league. I don’t think we need to wait any longer to make a decision. He is not going to make it. McHale’s last failed draft choice.
How can Love learn how to shoot a three pointer over the summer and Brewer still not be able to make a lay-up or a free throw?
It is incredible isn't it?
Some of the shots he misses are truly embarassing. It’s hard to believe that this kid was a Final Four MOP. Usually the reason a great college player is unable to make it in the NBA is due to height/speed/athletic limitations that prevents him from being able to get a shot off as easily or defend his position as effectively. But Corey constantly puts himself in a position to get good looks at the rim, whether it’s rising up for a J over a shorter opponent or slashing his way into the lane. It’s the last 10% of the process – the finishing part if you will – that totally escapes him. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like it.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 10, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
What he needs to do is...
…all those little layups and flip shots he takes, he just needs to start trying to dunk those. He’s athletic enough.
He needs more muscle to do that.
Guys are too easily pushing him out of the way/changing his trajectory or stripping the ball from him.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
speaking of stripping the ball
last night Hollins finally held onto it a couple times.
of course, he was stripped a couple times too.
I’ve never seen so many clean steals in the post against a player as i’ve seen this year against Hollins.
Just terrible hands. Remember that play from yesterday where where he was going down the middle of the lane on the break with his hand up to call for the ball. The PG (Sessions I think) zipped one RIGHT to his chest and Hollins was still somehow unprepared for it (despite having his hand up and looking right at him) and bobbled it out of bounds.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Flynn vs. Sessions
I think your statements regarding Sessions vs. Flynn are valid but extremely short sighted. Sessions may be the better NBA basketball player right now, but by having Flynn out on the floor at the end of the game shows that everyone in the organization believes that Flynn has the higher ceiling as compared to Sessions…and I agree. The only way to reach your full potential is to play in clutch situations, so when it really matters (i.e. not this season) you can perform well and make the clutch play. Flynn isn’t going to learn anything and grow into a superior player if Sessions is on the floor. Although I’m not happy with how Flynn defended the play or the fact that the T’Wolves lost, I am happy that Flynn was in the game and put into that situation. He got the real feel of what exactly is going through your mind in a tight game like that. He got to experience the situation, which will help him improve far more than watching other players out on the court. You have to realized that we have won THREE games. Our objective is not the playoffs, but our objective is also not to lose games so we can have a good chance at getting a high lotter pick. Our objective is to grow our young players. Flynn is the kind of player who is going to excel only if he can learn from his mistakes. I agree with the philosophy that the organization is employing and I hope I don’t see a post about how we need to be developing our young players more because that is the exact situation that we need our young players involved in. Not the young players that are going to keep us afloat until we can get someone better, but the young players that are going to be a part of this organization for the long-term
Disagree
Unfortunately, there is another component here – franchise survival. Report from Fortune reaffirms what anybody here knows. Wolves are bleeding money, playing in a half empty arena most nights (an arena that is a distant second to Xcel), owned by a guy rumored to be looking to sell. Rebuild in three years? I don’t think this franchise will be here in three years. Squeezing incremental wins is at least as important as young player development with a franchise on life support.
by A.K. Agikamik on Dec 10, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
The Wolves have been losing money for a long time
And only half of the NBA’s franchises are profitable on any given year. Owners don’t typically make profits annually….they make the money when they sell the team.
Taylor’s said many times he has no intention of selling the team, so I don’t think this is a worry.
There is truth to that..
But if the franchise is going to be gone in three years, I don’t think 24 wins as opposed to 20 is going to keep it here.
What’s going to keep it here is if significant talent (i.e., John Wall?) is added in the offseason. There has to be buzz and excitement going in to next season, if you ask me. I don’t think casual fans could be any less interested this year. If the win total is going to be somewhere between 18 and 30, I really don’t think any variation in that range is going to affect fan interest. But I do think this offseason, or next offseason at the latest, are critical. In short, I really, really want John Wall.
Agreed
Switching Sessions for Flynn won’t be a noticeable enough difference for the franchise to make a big enough competitive jump to merit a reawakening of the fanbase. If anything, Flynn is the much more electrifying player. Like LoveTo said, we’re gonna need bigger and better changes to rekindle any interest. Kahn’s our most important piece right now in terms of generating buzz and building an entertaining roster to bring in fans. More than anyone, if he succeeds then our seats should begin filling up again.
Fortune needs to be salty
I think most billionaires lost a lot of money last year. When the stock market goes down 25-40%, most of these guy’s wealth will also dip accordingly, so I wouldn’t read too much into that. Also, $6.5 million is a drop in the bucket for Taylor, honestly. Don’t believe me? The guy OK’d a trade for Juwan Howard, and then paid him $10 million dollars to not play for us. Yes, there’s a little more to the story than that, but Glen Taylor can afford a $6.5 million operating loss.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
If he's going to be here long term
He’ll get his chances at the end of games. He doesn’t need to experience the full gamut from day 1. I’d probably be more in line with this thinking if I saw Flynn as a can’t miss guy, but even then, probably not. Look at Philadelphia. Horible team. Holiday is the PG of the future. He couldn’t buy minutes. That’s the other end of the spectrum, and not any more correct, but he certainly wasn’t going to play starter’s minutes in any case. The explanation is simple, that despite having way more upside than Flynn, he wasn’t ready. Flynn is more ready, but maybe not ready enough for the role he’s been given. Doesn’t mean there’s no investment in developing the player. Here, the situation is a bit more unique in that Sessions is young, no one knows how good he can be, and he needs to develop just as much. It’s not like the alternative is Bobby Brown.
Louis Williams is the point guard of Philly's future
And both he and Holiday are injured, so it’s a moot point
The Sixers had every intention of winning at the outset of the season...
Maybe they suck now, but they came off of a playoff berth and hired a better coach than the one they had. Their goal was making the playoffs. Totally different situation: they’re almost fixated with sacrificing development for wins because they know they lack talent and had little margin for error in getting back to the postseason.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Indeed
After signing Elton Brand last year, they now have zero cap space, and zero flexibility. They have to win now because they’re almost $10 million over the cap this year and will be even farther over it next year.
No one’s going to spend what basically amounts to $100 million on a roster not intended to make the playoffs.
hmmmm
wonder if the wolves could pull off a trade for the younger AI my taking Brand or Dalembert off the Sixer’s hands and giving them some picks and maybe Al Jefferson.
Can’t do the trade maching now but I’m thinking something like
AI
Brand
Jefferson
Cardinal
Blount
Utah Pick
Do we really want Brand though?
He’d create the same problem for us that Al does with the mismatched pace of play thing. The reason the Sixers can’t win is because they’re a mirror image of us…a team trying to run with a frontcourt not built for it. They can’t play fast because Brand can’t keep up, and they can’t play slow because they have no shooters to spread the floor.
I think that’d just be trading one problem for another. We need an athlete and a defender in our frontcourt.
No Thanks
Look at Brand’s contract again: $14.8, $15.9, $17.0, $18.1 Mill
Do we really want to pay that type of money for player on the downswing of his career? I really like Iggy but he is not worth that price, especially when you consider that he’ll be making $14-17 Mill for the next 4 years as well. Assuming a lowered cap of say $53 Mill, can we really afford to have almost half of our cap taken up by these two players? Taking on the worst contract in the NBA doesn’t seem like something David Kahn is willing to do unless he can get a Kobe/LBJ/Wade type in return as well.
agreed about Brand
Just thinking of various ways to get wing players. In order to get AI Wolves would need to provide Sixers with monetary relief, etc.
I would be okay with Dally
If we only had to take back his 2 year deal I would be fine with it. He actually fills a void on this team and I could stomach overpaying him for one extra season. It would set our FA spending back a year but Iggy would be worth it.
Is Iguodala worth his deal?
He’s good, but isn’t he just another #2? Don’t get me wrong, he’d be a great #2 on a running team if Rubio was his point guard, but he’s paid more like a #1.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
Iggy is better than Gay.
Gay’s a better shooter, but Iggy’s better at everything else and really helps his team whenever he’s out there. I’d love him for the Wolves.
by Princely Frank on Dec 10, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'll buy the win now idealism
at the start of the season. But I do not believe that Lou Williams was anything other than a stop gap replacement for Andre MIller tossed in with the idea that he just might be good enough to help the team make the playoffs. Holiday is the future at the point there. At any rate, there were a lot of good PGs taken in the draft, many with similar or higher upsides than Flynn, and none displaced quality starters. They may have caused shifts in positions (Curry with Ellis) or blurred the distinction on PG (Evans) . Plenty of guys that teams are invested in developing do not start even when drafted higher than Flynn (Harden and Thabeet).
None of them displaced quality starters, but...
…we don’t exactly have Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups, or Deron Williams on our team either.
Exactly
But I was making the point that if Sessions had been starting here last year, and put up the production he did with the Bucks, would he go to the bench because they drafted Flynn? I think it’s a reasonable question. If that was the case I think they would still be invested in developing Sessions, and they’d be trying to figure out what they had with Flynn at the same time. The bigger point is that you don’t shoulder a huge load for a team as a rookie just because the team wants to develop you. It’s a balance with the team goals (OK, I concede we aren’t looking to win) the roster depth, and how game ready you are. In MN, Flynn does have competition at the point with another young talent, and he’s not as game ready as some other rookie PGs.
Plus
If the team is trying to evaluate all their young assets, don’t you want to feature them on the court with a player who helps make them better? I just prefer Sessions because he runs the offense better. I got tired of the lack of ball movement last year, and get frustrated when we drop back into the mode of over dribbling and 12 second post posessions. I want to see both PGs out there. I want them to both have the chance ot develop and be evaluated. I would like to see them on the court at the same time the way the Hornets have played quite often this year (even when CP3 was injured). I just think that Flynn needs to earn the crunch time minutes. He has never had to really run an offense or play defense before this season, so he’s not there yet.
I wouldn't say Sessions has been running the offense better lately
Maybe at the start of the year, but the last two weeks, Jonny’s been tallying a lot more assists and the team has been a lot more competitive because of him.
The Sixers
Were always big on Lou’s potential. He’s been waiting in the wings for some time now. He’s always been a big talent but he never had the opportunity or the results until this year. Before he went down with a broken jaw he was a stud.
Lou’s breakout coupled with Jrue’s potential make for an interesting situation. You’ve got two good young PGs, both of whom could be called combo guards and have played some SG in their time. Both are about the same height. Somewhat similar to us, but they’re stuck in roster purgatory. Thank god we’re not there anymore.
http://www.rotowire.com/Louis-Williams-googid119524-spnba.htm
Williams (broken jaw) is expected to retain his starting job when he returns in January, the Philadelphia Inquirer reports.
http://twitter.com/deepsixer3/statuses/6434601377
Jordan says he envisions AI starting for the season, that he’ll see when everyone gets healthy, but he envisions an AI, Lou Will backcourt.
I’ve also read reports that Williams is coach Eddie Jordan’s favorite player, and that the Sixers want to trade Brand because they believe Williams can be a Devin Harris type player in a running offense.
In any case, no way is Williams a stop-gap player. He’s been tearing up summer leagues for a while now, and was one of the best sixth men the last two years. Philly is 100% behind him as their future point guard.
What's incredible to me
After having him on my fantasy radar for so many years, I lost interest in him after he kept shooting in the upper 30’s to low 40’s. Then all of a sudden he becomes absurdly efficient and starts shooting nearly 50 percent and he became a top-30 fantasy guy.. Not to forget that he was a combo guard whom lots of people doubted as a PG (though as I understand it Eddie Jordan’s offense just needs “guards” and not necessarily just PG or SG.)
His efficiency suprises me too
Jumping from 40% shooting to 45% is a huge leap to make in one year. Especially for a player who’s doubling his on-court responsibilities.
Honestly
You’re still trying to argue something that isn’t even my main point? Holiday is essentially a lottery pick who slipped. He is a future starter in this league and most believe he has a higher upside than Flynn. He right now is 3 times the defender that Williams is. However, he does not and should not start because he is not ready. To his credit, he is the younget player in the league, but he is absolutely not ready for a huge number of minutes. Sometimes guys, regardless of their potential and need to develop, need to do a lot of that development off the court. Flynn is more advanced, but maybe not enough for the load he gets. That is my point.
As for Williams, he has played well this year. It was not a given at the start of the season. There was a lot of talk that the Sixers may have blown their playoff chances by losing Miller and giving an unproven, Williams the starting spot given his poor shooting and defensive history.
I'm not going to agree that Sessions should start, nor that he's better than Flynn in the first place
For reasons already stated, plus the fact that Sessions wasn’t starting last year until Redd got injured anyway. And he had a lot less competition in Milwaukee.
The team is committed to Flynn, that’s the bottom line, and for as many examples of successful rookies who were brought along slowly, there’s just as many successful players who were thrown into the fire their first year.
I thought the call of the night
was Hanny’s, after Peja swished a jump shot and we heard, “And Stojakovic with a Deep Doosh!”
I thought that's what I heard...
…but wasn’t sure. There was silence for a bit after that.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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I was assuming the silence was due to
Pete muting the mike and laughing. That was funny on so many levels.
Not just a doosh for the softish and scruffy-looking Peja, but a deep one.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 10, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Hysterical.
I wish I had heard that. I can just picture Hanny and Jim after that. Jim slowly turns his head towards Hanny in disbelief. Hanny purses his lips and nods for a second, realizing what he said, then slaps his forehead.
I can’t stop laughing just thinking about it.
Agree on some points...
And not on others. The difference between the 2 PG’s is potential. You can see brilliance at times with Flynn. Yes he makes some mistakes, misses too many shots at this point, and his D is developing. But at times you can see why big Al made the Chris Paul comment about Flynn. That is why you have to give him so much PT. So he can work through the lows over a couple of seasons. You’ll be glad we did. Sessions on the other hand is steady. He is pretty close to his ceiling right now. Nice facilitator, at this point a better defender than flynn. But he will never be a guy who the opposition fears. I think Jonny will become that if given all this PT after a year or so.
Disagree
on seeing any comparison between CP3 and Flynn. CP3 never looked to shoot the 16’ and was in constant drive & kick mode as a young player. Flynn drives to score and looks to shoot the 16’ too much. Paul was & is a pass 1st player. Flynn is a score 1st guy.
Change of pace/ Someone to celebrate
Love is continuing to impress not only the Hoopus posters but also national pundits. Before making a pretty unexpected prediction, Hollinger basically made the exact same comparison as Thorpe did yesterday during today’s ESPN chat:
Garrett (CA)
Kevin Love or Jason Thompson?
John Hollinger
(1:00 PM)
Love, hands down. He’s a tremendous talent, imagine Brad Miller but with a prodigious rebound rate and you have some idea of his ability. Thompson will be a nice player for the next decade or so, but Love will be a star.
more ESPN...
Hollinger ranked Al Jefferson as the NBA’s third-best young center (under age 25), behind Howard and Bynum. Pretty high praise.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-091210
In addition
He also reiterated his view that the Mayo-Love trade was better for us. I don’t think Love showed up in the Sophomore rankings today; maybe he hasn’t played enough so far. Though if he though Love was better than JT and JT was 3rd, you’d have to assume he’d take that spot.
SNP
One comment on your Brewer rant on him losing the game. Look at what Stojakovic did to Gomes in the 3rd verse what Stojakovic did to Brewer in the 4th. Brewer shut him down cold. So, while I am as upset that Brewer missed the shots too, I submit that if he was not in the game guarding Stojakovic, we lose the game anyhow.
The real culprit was Flynn’s inability to get the offense run through Jefferson in the middle of the 4th quarter. Flynn’s off balance drives and Brewer’s shot clock expiring shots were not what we needed – we needed to go through Al.
Rambis said the exact opposite
“We get stagnant,” Rambis said, stuck in a pattern of feeding Jefferson “where everyone on the planet knows what we’re doing.”
Obviously Jefferson is a great scoring force, but just constantly giving him the ball takes us back to last year where we had basically one play in the entire playbook. NOH figured out the gameplan in the second half and forced the ball away from Jefferson.
Just constantly feeding Al slows us down, and we don’t have the shooting ability to play that style of offense.
Last night was an example of an ideal Jefferson game in a winning future
Middling shot volume, super efficient, big-time rebounding, solid D, good ball movement. We already know that Jefferson taking 20+ shots per game is not a winning formula. Less shots, more efficiency please.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 10, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
I am not talking about the whole game
I liked the distibution during most of the game – but not at the end. I am talking about the last 7 minutes.
If my stat sheet is right, Jefferson had 0 shots to end the game. Brewer had 2, Ellington had 3, Gomes had 2, Love, had 1 and Flynn had 4! That is just not going to get it done.
In crunch time, based on how we are structured, Big Al needs the ball when we need a basket. Running high pick and roll is NOT going to do it.
It's what they did in the Nets game, too...
Mixed pick and roll with post ups. Their ability to get hoops in that game sparked the comeback and led to the win.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
Wolves.com has the complete Rambis interview
where he discusses the game, including their preferred use of Big Al.
Rambis does not (NOT) want to do the McHale thing of posting up Al on the left block every time, everyone stands around, take 15 seconds to squeeze of a contested shot. He does not consider that running the offense.
He wants player and ball movement, switching sides of the floor, etc. In the first half Al got shots on both the left and right side, he hit guys cutting into the lane, etc.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 10, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Al was dropping
23 & 12 posting up on his favorite box. The last month of exciting basketball was last year in January when Wolves were 10-4 going to AL on left box. Thought that was called playing to a players strength. Do you remember Hakeem on right box or Kareem on left box? Rambis also said he was going to run triangle, which thank goodness, he has stopped running. With his late clock management and comments I’m wondering if the guy knows what he’s doing.
I am not going to disagree
but on this roster, right now, who is the best player on the team at getting a good offensive look at crunch time? Hands down for me – Big Al. So what kind of offense is Rambis running that gets Al ZERO shots in the last 7 minutes of a close game?
I have no need to see Al pound the ball for 15 seconds every possession either. I like a more fluid offense – hence my comments of like the Sessions/Ellington/Brewer/Love/Jefferson play in the early 4th. But come on – as Andy just posted – Hollinger calls Big Al the #3 young post. And we never got him the ball at crunch time?
I'm not defending Rambis
Just mentioning what he said.
I agree that Al should be taking a lot of the crunch time shots. I don’t think Rambis necessarily disagrees. He just wants to vary how and when they get him the ball. Being predictable == being easy to defend in his mind.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 10, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
The last
play especially. Going to Ellington who is shooting 18% from 3 land for the year was mind boggling. One thing for sure Rambis had Hornets fooled, they surely never thought that he’d go to Wayne for a 3 being down 1.
I am not going to critize that play
frankly there were not a lot of options. No way is Al touching the ball close to the basket. Was actually thinking that a back cut lob to Brewer from the near corner with Love crashing from the far lane might have created a foul/tip in. But its all a crap shoot.
Coaches shine or flame
out in that situation. You use AL low in case of a blown assignment ( see Flynn 1 play earlier) as option 1, Love pick away on Flynn top of the key for shot coming to ball option 2, slip to basket by Love if a mix up occurs on Flynn pick option 3, if no mess up on pick Love comes back to ball and Gomes (who should have in bounded ball) comes off Love for the shot, that 18% from 3 Wayne, took. It’s the same thing you draw up for your kids when you coach their youth games…. Not that hard. That last play was brutal, plain and simple.
Coaches shine or flame out because of the first 47 minutes
They can become great with what their teams do late, but it doesn’t make or break them. It’d be like saying Robert Horry was a better player than KG.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 10, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Robert Horry
Has more rings than KG, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, and Karl Malone combined. Therefore he is the best post player of the group. Rings and “clutchness” mean everything!!!!!!!!
P.S. – I hate nuance. It makes my head sad.
No one is talking
post play here. Rambis ran a 1 option play for a shot by Ellington with AL on the bench. The play design stunk.
I figured that might be misread
That was a completely unrelated tangent comment on how people focus too much on rings and clutch plays to evaluate the greatest players. Didn’t mean for it to be an argument in the bigger discussion. My bad.
Don’t really want to start the umpteenth KG v. Duncan or LeBron v. Kobe tangent again, but those are examples.
You make it sound
Like Rambis doesn’t even understand youth basketball-level plays, which I find incredibly unlikely. The guy’s an NBA coach with a lot of incredibly limited offensive players on his team who also lack an ability to consistently execute. To say that picking the right out-of-bounds play is “not that hard” is pretty dismissive. There’s a reason why Rambis is an NBA coach and we’re not. Guess what? It is that hard.
Say you have one player who can consistently create his own shot, but only out of the post since he is not a jump-shooter/dribbler/slasher. Best-case scenario, you’d want him to try the last shot, right? The other coach knows this same thing. The fact that he is our best scorer is the exact reason why he doesn’t get the ball.
Rambis knows that other teams will always take that option away from us, so he has to be creative with the plays he calls. Since they take Al away, it’s pretty tough to get a good shot in that situation with the other offensive players we have. Also, many of out-of-bounds calls are made with the other teams’ tendencies in mind. Who knows how that played into our play-calling; even if Rambis called the right play our team would still fudge the execution anyway.
I just don't see Jefferson with this team long term
Even when he’s 100% healthy. As long as he’s here, we’re going to be constantly fighting his instinct to post up and grind out 15 seconds of the shot clock. He needs to be moved to a team that can flourish with that kind of play.
Which then leaves Love, who certainly is much better suited to our style, but can you build a frontcourt around him? He doesn’t really have the physical tools to carry a team’s post scoring needs, and certainly won’t anchor us defensively, so if we decide to hang onto him, we get cornerned into needing a very specific (and rare) type of center to be successful.
That’s why I’m all for turning over the entire frontcourt as well and gunning for Derrick Favors.
RE: Stagnant...
…that’s where the Johnny Stop reference is coming from. The Raptors color commentator made a good note of it during the Raps game and we’ve been talking about it all year. He has a tendency to just stop when he gets the ball.
JAF: I’m probably too hard on Brewer but the wing play on this team is atrocious and his offense has a big, big part to do with that. Also, I completely agree about Flynn’s inability to get the ball to Al in the 4th. It was ugly. It was like he never had seen that type of offensive play before.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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I feel like
The Jonny Stop is gonna be the name of the next big dance craze. Sort of like how the “Dream Shake” sounds more like a dance move than a post move.
Well, we can be grateful for a couple things at least
We’re not wasting time this year talking about guys like Kirk Hinrich or Joel Pryzbilla. Think of where we’d be if either of those deals had gone through….thoroughly average with no flexibility.
Even if the players think
Rambis can’t coach, they’re loving him for leaving Mpls -3 for LA last night. Nice time for a trip to sunny Cal.
I live in Cali
And we’ve been getting weird weather. I thought i left the Minnesota morning frost on the windshield but all this week its been like that.
I think Kurt just wanted to get his Ring from last year. This way he can see it ahead of time and use it as a motivational part in his game prep for tomorrow.
by GHACAN BLACKSTAR on Dec 10, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
Flynn/Rambis/Brewer
Flynn made a terrible defensive play. He may “learn” from this, but the team doesn’t learn from such a loss. The team just loses confidence from a loss like this.
So, I think this goes on the coach. Same play run before timeout. Why wasn’t Jonny ready? Did he just totally blow it? Did Rambis prep players for this play? With 3.4 seconds left, do we have a better defender play their best player?
Speaking of better players, Brewer is not one of those now. Confidence has to be shaky. Bad misses. Bad passes. Bad turnovers. Some of the passes by Brewer and others during the Hornets’ run from 13 down to about even were truly awful.
We’ll see how they rebound on Friday although tough to gage when it’s the Lakers. If they play halfway close, I feel better. But it could be a mega-blowout, too. Just look at the Bulls now. Bad loss to Nets followed by a huge blowout loss.
We’ll see. We so need a SG/SF.
I think Rambis is doing a good job thus far
A lot of people are really sour on Rambis right now, because of 1 play at the end of a game and because our rookie PG couldn’t find our best player for a quarter-all while running an offense that requires him to read and react on his own. Geez, tough crowd.
This is what I see when I look at Rambis: a coach who, despite all the crapitude this year, still has his players motivated and trying hard and buying into his system. That’s a huge deal. Opposite of Wittman. I also see a coach who has guided this team steadily and with clear vision, meaning that it sounds to me like he gives them clear goals to work towards (individually and as a team). After seemingly 15 games of losing by 15+ points a night, the team is now down to 4-5 point differential in their games. Forgive me, please, but any coach who can take a team like ours (with our talent level and roster unbalance) and demonstrate improvement over time is a damn good coach. Do you honestly believe any other coach would have this team looking better? (And save me the argument that other coaches could have gotten a few more wins. If you think this season is about wins, at whatever cost, then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t want us to become the Clippers of the Mississippi.)
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
The Clippers of the Mississippi....
..has potential as a future tag line. I’m saving it for draft day in case Kahn blows it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
We'll all have a few suggestions if the Wolves screw up this summer
- The NBA: Where getting Kahned happens
- Home of the Eternal Rebuild
- Spending all our assets on a bag of magic beans
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 11, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Rambis
has the right perspective in being able to differentiate between effort and performance which is critical to a young team. Effort comes first. He has rightly called the team out on a couple of occasions for lack of effort. But if the effort is there, his able to accept less than a perfect outcome. That allows the players to make mistakes as part of a learning experience. Wittman could never do that – which is why he was such a poor choice to have his contract extended when the decision was made to rebuild post KG.
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Took away a Wolves basket?
We’re gonna lose by one now. Book it.
by LoveTo on Dec 9, 2009 9:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs