Double Wrap...
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 12, 2009 8:52 AM CST
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I think we very well could.
Kings are much improved this season though.
Judd: "...I've since watched some Steven Seagal movies and I realise that pressure points are no laughing matter.".
Looking forward to seeing Tyreke tonight.
For all the early-season hype about Jennings, I think Evans has the better shot to become the best player from this draft class.
As nice as it is to have Rubio waiting in the pipelines… Kind of wish he was wearing a Wolves jersey.
Ditto. I have yet to see him play this year, so this should be fun. Despite getting beat down last night, I still think we played pretty hard and executed well for our talent level. If they can duplicate that effort tonight they could easily come away with the win.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Evans is a beast...
This year’s ROY race could replicate last year’s. Mayo gets hot start (Jennings) and Rose gets better and better (Evans).
It's funny though...
Would any of you take D. Rose over Love right now?? I’m not sure that I would… I think Kevin might be the better long-term talent. I know Rose is going through a funk, but I think Flynn may be a better lead guard 5 years from now. Moral of the story is that, while the rookie year is fun to watch and important, it’s not a sure-fire indicator of long-term success in the association.
Mmm...
While this is not necessarily the insane question most national fans and pundits might think it is… I still think I would take Rose. Love is awesome, and going to be a solid player for a decade. But Rose has the potential to be a franchise talent. Love doesn’t.
But what about Lopez-Love?
True centers are hard to find so I think Lopez gets the nod.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
You might be right.
But this also depends on what pieces are added to our team in the future. If Rubio comes and is a star, or we draft Wall, then I’d rather have Love than Rose. If we take Aldrich and he’s good, I’d rather have Love next to him than Lopez.
Building around point guards is probably the most difficult position to build around...
…because they are, by their nature, more reliant on their teammates than any other position. And I think that teams fooled themselves these past two years into thinking building around a point guard was a foolproof plan because of the success the Hornets had with Paul.
As for Rose, I’m not sure he’s a franchise talent. I think the Bulls, and most of the NBA, overrates him. Paul is a franchise player, but he also has unparalleled court vision, at the same level as Nash and Kidd (and of those two, Kidd is the only franchise player). So I mean…that’s really saying something about the level you need to be to be a franchise point guard. I don’t ever see Rose being as good as Paul or Kidd. Ever. I think he tops out at Steve Francis, which is damn good, but not good enough to build a team around.
Wall I think is being overrated too. How much better is he really than Russell Westbrook? I’m not seeing a huge difference right now. But the difference between Wall and Rose is that I can see Wall becoming a franchise player with more work and experience…he’s a much better facilitator than Rose. I think he can be this generations’ Gary Payton.
BUT the thing to keep in perspective is that the Hornets and Bulls are both terrible this year. I mean, CP3 started off the year averaging 25ppg on nearly 70% shooting, but the Hornets kept losing and losing and losing because none of his teammates were helping him. So the facilitating part of his game, which is a point guard’s primary responsibility, was completely wasted. CP3 isn’t LeBron or Kobe…he can’t just turn a mediocre team into a contender just by his own ability….that just isn’t the nature of the point guard position. Same with Rose, or any point guard really. Again, the only point guard I’ve ever seen that took an average team and made them contenders is Kidd.
Moral of the story: we can’t just draft John Wall and suddenly expect to be good.
The difference, in my opinion:
Wall is more Wade than CP3. He’s 6’4", 4 inches taller than Paul, with almost unparalleled explosiveness and hops, and a naturally muscular frame that you can easily see him adding bulk to like LeBron. Point guards are not necessarily reliant on their teammates… Distributors are reliant on their teammates. John Wall is not reliant on his teammates. I just don’t think you can apply the label of “point guard” to all cases and say that it doesn’t work to build around them, especially when talking about so unique a talent as Wall.
He’s bigger and stronger than Paul, miles better court vision than Rose, and has potential to be the best weak-side shot blocking guard ever. How much better is he than Westbrook? Well… a lot. I really think Wall is the most gifted player to come into the league since LeBron, and actually has a similar skill-set, just in a point guard’s body.
Clearly we wouldn’t just draft Wall and suddenly expect to be good. But I think it would go a very, very long way towards getting us there.
I'm not convinced Wall is all that talented
He’s a great player to be sure, but a phenom? Ehhh…we’ll see. He definitely a distributor though. Rose quite honestly is more Wade-like than Wall, more of a scorer.
I just think people are getting way too caught up in the hype machine and making Wall out to be better than he is. I’m not even sure he’s the unquestioned #1 pick, much less a once-in-a-lifetime talent.
Agree to disagree.
Stats of these players freshman years:
Wall (so far): 19.0 points, 7.0 assists, 3.0 steals, .562 fg%,
Rose: 14.0 points, 4.6 assists, 1.2 steals, .477 fg%
Wade: 17.8 points, 3.4 assists, 2.5 steals, .487 fg%
He’s more of a distributor than Rose… But more of a scorer too. These are better freshman year stats than Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, and Evans ever came close to putting up. Statistically (and aesthetically, too… seen his YouTube highlights?), Wall is just not in the same league as any guards who have come out in a long time.
I agree with that
Just not sure he’s a point guard version or LeBron or Kobe. That’s all I’m saying.
Who can say..
But I watched that game against UConn, where he scored 25 and 12 of his team’s last 15, including the go-ahead And 1 with 30 seconds left, and that pretty much sealed it for me.
Nash
Hard to say a two time MVP isn’t a franchise player. Also, I believe it was ESPN’s Hollinger that said earlier this week that Gary Payton is one of the two most underrated players in NBA history. He thinks Payton was better than Kidd and Nash.
It will be interesting to see what happens if T-Wolves get number 1 pick. With Flynn, rights to Rubio, Sessions (assuming he isn’t traded at deadline) and opportunity to draft the most highly coveted college PG since Magic, Kahn could have a feeding frenzy of trade offers the league has never seen before.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
Completely agree...
You have to take Wall unless you get some sick trade offer for a bona fide All-Star (Roy, Melo…which won’t happen). If I was Kahn, I’d draft Wall, keep Sessions (for a year as Wall develops) and unload Flynn and Rubio for that athletic SG/SF we need.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions
Also, I don't think Nash is a franchise point guard
He needs a very specific system built for him to flourish. Even when he was in Dallas, he never enjoyed great success unless the team was playing that run-and-gun style. The two MVPs were deserved because he was the most important player to his team those years, but at the same time, I think we’ve seen that without that D’Antoni-like system, he doesn’t take a team very far.
Payton was and is very much underrated though.
I would argue that Nash is a franchise player b/c you change the philosophy of the entire franchise if you have him.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
No. Stop the train. WALL IS THE #1 PICK.
He may not be a a once-in-a-lifetime talent, but he’s definitely the best player to come out since Lebron. He can pass (7 apg), score (19ppg), rebound, play defense, and is crazy athletic. KY hasn’t exactly had an easy schedule thus far either. He’s the PG version of Lebron, and I’m drinking the over-hyped (as usual) national media’s cool-aid…
As far as the Rose arguement, I just don’t think he does as much for his team as Love does. Rose can barely shoot and doesn’t facilitate real well. The Francis arguement is legit. Love gives so much in intangibles that I don’t think he gets enough credit for.
I think by the end of the year, Favors will make a legit case to be the #1 pick
Much as Beasley could have easily been the #1 pick over Rose.
Basketball prospectus article about Wall:
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=813
Key line: “LeBron might have looked something like this had one-and-done been in place to force him into a one-year collegiate detour.”
Anyone that doesn't think Wall is the #1 pick and
best NCAA player in years is just crazy. You don’t know basketball if you argue otherwise.
I just feel that Wall has become 50% ESPN hype
This seems very reminiscent of Greg Oden, and how he was a “once-in-a-lifetime” center and a “can’t miss” player, when all the smart vet work and analysis said Durant was the better pick.
Wall is a very talented kid. But I do think people are going overboard talking about him.
Are you crazy?
Have you not ever seen him play? He is the Lebron James of PG’s.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:35 PM CST up reply actions
Hmmmm
Can’t agree with that. Plus he’s still got an entire NCAA season ahead of him.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
What smart vet work and analysis...
goes against Wall though?
I understand trying to resist hype and remain rational. And yes, it is a bit silly how people gush about Wall. But really, it’s a fact that Wall is playing better than any freshman has played in years and years.
And it’s also not like Brandon Jennings, where you can expect a regression to the mean. He would have been in conversation for the top pick last season. He’s validating expectations, rather than exceeding them. And I think that’s an important difference.
Well, the analysis on Durant and Oden wasn't that Oden was bad
Just that Durant was better (and a lot more healthy…)
Like I said, I think Wall is a very talented player. And he will be a great NBA player and probably a better one than Rose. But dubbing him the next LeBron…that’s just a step too far for me to buy into right now.
Not the "next LeBron."
He’s the “LeBron James of PG’s.” There is a difference. It’s in regards to how he compares to his peers.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
Right, but there are no players who analysis suggests are better.
And I’m not dubbing him the next LeBron. Only saying that of anyone entering the league since LeBron, he’s got the best chance to be as good. Anything can happen that could derail his career, like injuries or an attitude problem. I’m only saying he has the more raw talent and more potential than anybody to come out in a long time.
Don't forget that Beasley averaged 26 and 12 as a frosh...
No way Favors produces like that (though I think he’ll be the better than Beasley 10 years from now). Wall is insane. Beasley could have been the pick over Rose but no team would take Favors over Wall—regardless of who is already on their roster.
True what you are saying about Oden, and I do hate the bullsh*t ESPN hype-machine, but Oden got all that hype because he was a center and quality centers only come along once in a while (while there are quality point guards that come out every year). That’s why I think the Wall hype is legit.
Anyone that has seen Wall play
knows the “hype” is legit.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
Favors is averaging 14-8 and 2 blocks
and shooting 68%. He could easily average what Beasley averaged, but he’s splitting shots and time with Gani Lawal, who’s been at Georgia Tech for two years already.
Still, there's no way you pick Favors over Wall.
Wall isn’t just stats, and he’s not just hype. The kid scores when his team needs scoring and he facilitates the rest of the time. He’s a ball hawk and he’s athletic as hell. I absolutely love watching this kid play and would mortgage the entire Wolves franchise (save my boy Love) to get him in a Wolves uniform.
I have issues with Love too
But that’s a different story.
Another question to ask is would Wall be good in the triangle? That’s my other concern in terms of us drafting him.
Wall would instantly be the best player on our team.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Concur.
That might be the end of my love for this organizaiton.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
Good question
And one that applies to Flynn and Rubio.
There has never been a dominant, All-Star PG on any of the Lakers or Bulls teams.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
This is a non-issue.
I can personally guarantee you that if we can draft John Wall, we will not run any kind of system that minimizes his role.
Speaking of Wiz
Foye is really awful. Even though Rubio is still in Spain, no objective person can look back and say we gave up much of anything in exchange for potential All-Star PG.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
Foye took one of the worst shots I've ever seen the other night
Tried to be Reggie Miller. It was a spectacular fail.
His numbers are way down....
But that is partly b/c of minutes and role on team. He’s low on the pecking order there. Although I thought he’d become a solid 6th man. 15 points in 30 minutes kind of thing.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 12, 2009 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Much worse
Much much worse. His shooting is below 40% this year and he’s playing not even 10mpg now because Nick Young is just flat out better.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Tried to tell everyone that Foye sucks!
Ever since his rookie year. People refused to listen.
by College Wolf on Dec 12, 2009 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
That trade was straight-up brilliant.
Even if Miller and Foye were putting up career years, neither was in this team’s long-term plan anyway so even if Rubio never shows up, it was a fair trade.
by SF on Dec 12, 2009 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
If Wall doesn't work in the triangle...
you ditch the triangle…you don’t pass on Wall.
Agree with all of the above. We need to switch to some sort of...
…hybrid triangle. This team has too much invested in PGs to run a system that doesn’t take advantage of their abilities properly. Plus, dominant PG play is fun to watch…
At the end of the day...
…the system exists only to allow players to utilize their skills to beat the competition. If the triangle doesn’t work for the players you want to build around, then you drop the system
The one thing I think we need to think about with the triangle is...
…Rambis’ pride. As Jerry Z said at the beginning of the year, no one’s ever come out of the Phil Jackson coaching tree because no one has understood the triangle well enough to teach it to a new team. I think there’s a point of pride for Rambis to be the first.
You'd think..
It’d be a bigger blow to his pride to be the guy who didn’t maximize on the potential of several talented point guards.
I agree
But then again, he keeps running the triangle now, even though it doesn’t suit 3 of our 4 best players
Disagree
First, it isn’t like we run the triangle 70 possessions a game. Heck, probably not even 50. Second, dominant post play fits is perfectly with the triangle and Al is starting to find his game within it. It suits him just fine – it was fine for Shaq. It is fine for Bynum and Pau. Third, our PGs can still create when needed/required. The triangle does not handcuff talent.
Because there are no fours.
Toine
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