The Jonny Pod
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 13, 2009 5:54 PM CST
142 comments
I know I promised a double game wrap so let's quickly deal with the Laker game before moving along to the tilt that, unfortunately, says the most about Our Beloved Puppies: The Lakers are the best team in the NBA and there is no shame in losing to a team that could end up as one of the all-time greats. The end. As for the Kings...
I'm a big Apple fan but one of the things I can't stand the most about the company is their willingness to spring new products on their consumers with little or no warning. My personal experience dates back to the little iPod you see above. I went out and bought that little doohicky about a week, maybe two, before the iPod video launched.
I enjoyed my iPod. It iPoded well and was able to hold nearly all of my music. Yet, it probably became irrelevant at just about the time I bought it.
And so begins the career of Jonny Flynn in a league with Tyreke Evans.
I'm not really sure what the correct word is for what Evans did to Flynn last night but here are several that I think should qualify for a chance at the title: eaten, mangled, transmorgified, cold-cocked, and stampled (I made this one up). Whatever it is, I'm sure we Wolves fans will have more than enough up-close opportunities to figure it out over the next however many years.
The most disappointing thing about last night's game wasn't the action on the court. The Wolves played well early on their 4th game in 5 nights spanning from Toronto to Minneapolis to LA to Sacramento and they lost Ryan Gomes to an ugly ankle injury. It was one of those games where you can probably talk yourself into chalking the loss up to a little bit of a lack of effort, a little bit of indifference, and a whole lot of "let's get out of here". What was most disappointing about the game is that for all the talk of two top draft picks, Ricky Rubio, and future assets, the Kings--a franchise that was below the crap-ass level of the 2008/09 Wolves--fell into a bit of luck (see Evans, Tyreke) and are now miles and miles and miles beyond the Wolves. A bad game is a bad game is a bad game is a bad game (believe me, I watch the Wolves) but last night's demolition was something more. It was a realization that the Kings have something that cannot be answered by Jonny Flynn or Ricky Rubio....to say nothing of what Jason Thompson and a legit 7 footer (Spencer Hawes) means for the Wolves' front line.
For 4 quarters Evans had his way with the Wolves' back court. From post ups to Manu-esque below-the-rim drives to the hoop the guy got what he wanted when he wanted it and he did so primarily because of his physicality. He physically dominated his position more than anyone else on the court. I know we talked about his physical upside in the lead up to the draft but....well, there it was on full display. The guy is LeBron James at the point, and yes, I went there. Maybe Manu with muscles is more like it. Congrats to the Kings for finding the bit of luck that all franchises need to make the big jump from level to level.
Who is that guy for the Wolves? Well, if there is one thing to hope for it is that John Calipari can go 3-3 with dominant lead guards in the NBA Draft. If Derrick Rose is the speedster and Tyreke Evans is the physical powerhouse, here's hoping that John Wall is a magical combination of the two and that the Wolves finally end up with the top pick.
Wrapping this up, last night's loss had more to do with roster management than anything else. The Wolves have fallen behind yet another young bad team that they were ostensibly ahead of last season. At least they didn't find themselves in this position because they passed on or traded Evans in the draft. Kahn's got that going for him.
Until later.
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as soon as i saw Evan's firss summa league game
i knew he wuz gonna be a star mayn. it made me feel stupid too cuz i aint wanna draft him mayn. but when i saw him play i wuz like mynnnnnn hol up dis boi a fiend. iss too bad he aint fall ta us, anotha reason i fucking hate Ricky Rubio mayn fuck dat boi mayn i got beat him wun on wun fa show.
Evans a beass an yea at leass he aint drop ta us i thank Kahn really wanted him mo den anywun doe mayn aldoe he migh hvae been redundant nexx ta flynn o vice versa nahm sayin.
an dass why de rubio thang hurts…i actually thank Flynn would be THOWED nexx ta Ricky. fuck you Ricky, Fuck you
MAYN HOL UP!
by MAYNHOLUP on Dec 13, 2009 5:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ya, before the draft, Wolves fans had a hot debate about who was the better player
Evans or Harden.
I trust everyone’s clear on the answer to that now.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't see the game
So I’ll limit the comments to the “falling behind” aspect: weren’t the Kings ahead of the Wolves in the first place? They got Kevin Martin during a year in which the Wolves didn’t have a pick, and the Wolves countered with McCants and Foye as lotto picks in years where the Kings were still a playoff team and ended up with world-beaters Francisco Garcia and Quincy Douby. Hawes is a tough one because I was screaming “Don’t draft the big white stiff!” when they picked Brewer much like I was with Lopez during the next draft. And Jason Thompson wasn’t on the Wolves’ radar that early and isn’t better than Love. The Kings just did a better job drafting in no man’s land than the Wolves did in the lottery. The Wolves will have chances to add athletes, and it’s not inconceivable that they’ll be ahead of the Kings in a few years because they have more assets and because the Kings’ youngsters don’t necessarily have high ceilings.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 13, 2009 6:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That last point is one to ponder
As yes, Love’s injury certainly set the team back. But several of the Wolves non-Nets lotto brethren have jumped out to fast starts while the Wolves were setting team records for futility. So Sacto’s short-term succes has been particularly disturbing for Wolves fans.
When Martin comes back, the Kings are going to be in a dilemma as to who exactly their Guy is. I still think Martin is less than 50/50 to be a King by this time next year, especially if Sacto’s record with Martin is worse than it is without him.
Looking for silver linings in the first 1/3 of the season, it’s that the losses, Flynn’s tepid beginning, and Gomes’ injury might be enough for Kahn to reluctantly spend more of Glen’s money than they originally hoped, by overpaying for a 2 or 3 who can really make a difference on this team.
by PoorDick on Dec 13, 2009 6:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Is it wrong that every time we play someone from the 08 draft class, I end up regretting having Kevin Love?
I had another moment like that last night, when Thompson blocked Pavs on an open court fast break despite being outnumbered 1-3. “Damn, I wish we had drafted Thompson instead…”
It’s happened a lot lately…
“Wish we had drafted Brook Lopez”
“Wish we had drafted Eric Gordon”
“Wish we had drafted Anthony Randolph”
“Wish we had kept OJ Mayo”
Hell, after watching the Knicks wipe the floor with Phoenix’s tears two weeks ago, I had a moment of wishing we had drafted Gallinari.
Love is a beast. He’ll probably be an all star and at worst, perenially in the running for sixth man of the year. But every game we face one of his 08 classmates, I always get the feeling we passed on an equally good talent who would have helped us a lot more than Love does.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 6:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
On the highway, I'm pretty sure you're one of those people
who always thinks the other lane is moving faster.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 13, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta think that
Kings fans were as down on their team last year at this time. We’ve still got some amazing assets going forward—I’ll remain positive. WALL!!!
by SF on Dec 13, 2009 6:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
This draft class excites me
We really can’t go wrong with anyone projected 1-12
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's always easy to say this time of year.
Any given lottery pick has a 50%+ chance of badly underachieving. Although I’ll hope for the best, I would like Kahn to make moves that yield us a proven player or two.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 13, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True..
I said this about the 08 class too, and while Love is individually a great player, he was probably the worst one we could have ended up with from the top 12 players that year…
Well, second worst. God knows what a bust Joe Alexander is.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Worse than Bayless, Augustin, or Beasley? He’s at least even with OJ. And I think he’s the better player than Thompson too. Just not last night!
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 13, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Better player, yes, but that's not the same as being better for the team
I think a lot of Wolves fans don’t make that distinction. As an individual player, Love might be the most talented guy in that entire draft, but he’s also probably the worst fit for our team.
For sure, Mayo, Gordon or Gallo would solve our major major shooting problem. Mayo would also probably solve the issue of not having a go-to wing player. I think both Thompson and Lopez would compliment Al much better with their height, range, and in JT’s case, athleticism. And Randolph is just a superstar waiting to happen.
That’s also why I’m not convinced we won the Love/Mayo trade. Mike Miller was basically useless last year, Rubio might never play here, and Mayo is basically everything that even McHale said the team needed (I mean c’mon Mac…HELLOOOO???)
This is ALSO why I favor drafting by need, especially when there isn’t much of a talent gap between the players in question.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boy, I don't know....
I agree there are multiple players I would have liked, including Love. But it’s not like Thompson or Lopez are defensive stalwarts. Go look at their opponent eFG% Against numbers. I don’t think we’d suddenly have a killer interior defense if JT or BL were paired up with Jefferson up front. Jefferson is a problem no matter where he is because he is a ‘tweener that is too slow to play face up PFs and too small to play the bigger Centers. And if we had drafted a wing, we would be absolutely wafer-thin up front and lamenting the lack of support Jefferson gets on the boards. We are an imbalanced franchise right now with a ton of value in Jefferson, Love, and Pekovic at the PF/C and a ton of value in Flynn, Sessions, and Rubio at PG. Kahn’s real test as a GM is to eventually balance out the roster with strength at the other positions.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 13, 2009 7:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
Especially when it comes to rebounding and passing. Lopez isn’t on the same level as Love when it comes to rebounding, and all of the wings in that draft are limited in some way (passing, shooting, defense, athleticism). The way this team changed from one that was dominated on the boards almost every night to one that’s even or better with Love in there (not to mention the change in competitiveness) shows that he’s a decent fit with this team.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 13, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, Love is probably the best individual player
But I really feel we’d be a lot better as a team with someone else, particularly Mayo.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We still wouldn't be a contender
Unless filling one of those holes with one guy would make use a contender I’m glad we got the best player. Bad teams need to take BPA.
by ckb on Dec 13, 2009 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's better than Mayo
That’s maybe the difference. I don’t think he’s better than Lopez either.
I think if we were to take away Jefferson and make Love the #1 scoring option the way Mayo and Lopez are for their teams, we’d see a lot of these 3-14 shooting nights from him.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Neither of those guys are #1s
Lopez has Devin Harris and CDR to share the load and Mayo has Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, and Marc Gasol to give touches to. Harris and Gay are at least co #1s. I don’t disagree about Lopez, but Mayo is a dime-a-dozen player who could be added in any draft, and he’s got more scoring help than Love does.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You just spent a handful of paragraph....
….paraphrasing “I think we should have drafted for need.” And then you just said it at the end.
I’m sick of regurgitating the financial implications of that trade. The cap room for next year wouldn’t be there without that.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 13, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually it probably would be
Walker expired, Buckner expired, and Jaric would basically be our Brian Cardinal this year
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flawed thinking, in my opinion.
Love may not be a better fit than the players you list for the current roster. But the current roster is not the one we’re going to have in a year.
Give me Love, a phenomenal talent to surround with athletic, rangy players like Jason Thompson or smooth shooters like Mayo (both of whom are available just about every year).
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
But I also don’t think Love is the guy we should be building around, so my perspective is he’s not a positive for us until we see what he can be traded for.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or at least..
…where he fits on a playoff team
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not really his point
Guys like Thompson and Mayo can be added in any draft. Love is a unique player who has a clear effect on a team’s performance; I’ll be surprised if a guy like him is available in any of the next 5 drafts.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please explain
Why is he one of the worst? Of the lottery picks, I’d rather have him than Gallinari, Augustin, Alexander, Bayless, Rush, and Thompson, with it being too close to call with Beasley, Mayo, Lopez, Randolph, Westbrook (only because of Rubio looming), and Gordon. The only one I’d unequivocally take over him is Rose.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 13, 2009 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone see Thorpe's sophomore rankings from this week?
I think Lopez was #1, but I wonder how he ranked the rest.
Interesting analysis of GM’s and the draft. Bucks picked biggest bust of 2008 at #8 in Alexander and got a steal and potential ROY at #10 in Jennings in 2009.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 13, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he had Love ranked
Because he made those ranking like, a day after Love returned from his injury.
It’s hard to argue with Lopez being at the top though. Granted the Nets are terrible this year, but he is averaging 18-9-2 and 2 blocks while facing the same kind of double and triple teams Jefferson was his first year here. He’s one of those very rare modern era true centers that can play both sides of the ball.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Love was an "honorable mention"
He wrote something like “Look for Love near the top of these rankings by the end of the month. He’s doing everything for the Wolves, who have been more competitive since he came back.”
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
did you guys remember other rankings?
Love is solid, but I wonder if most GMs, coaches etc would rate him higher than Mayo, Eric Gordon, Beasley and Lopez as most folks at this blog seem to (with exception of Oceanary who started this thread).
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 13, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I don't think he'd rank ahead of Lopez or Mayo
Just based on what we’ve seen so far, Brook and OJ are two guys you can legitimately build a team around. OJ in particular.
Love I think will have a very successful career as a high end support player, but I bet is you ask league GM’s and coaches what one player they’d pick to start a team, Love wouldn’t get mentioned very often.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
I wonder if a re-draft from ’08 (regardless of team need for the sake of this argument) would be:
Rose (despite step backwards this year)
Lopez
Mayo
Westbrook
Love or Gordon (I’m not sure about this one)
Beasley (talent still there, but attitude)
Gasol
Gallinari
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 13, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not
But most coaches or GMs won’t ever win a championship either. Maybe ten percent will win one over their entire career, and very few will do so having drafted the guy who brings it to them.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 13, 2009 11:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Huh??
What skill does OJ Mayo have that you build a team around? If he’s so skilled how did Memphis only win 2 more games upon his arrival? Mayo doesn’t create for others, get to the line at a good rate, and isn’t a lights out defender. The reason-Memphis is improved this year is due to improved play at the 4/5.
Beasley’s a good mid-range shooter, a horrible defender, and doesn’t contribute in a lot of other ways.
Eric Gordon is at least efficient when healthy. I’ve never got the Mayo love on this blog since Gordon is a more effective player offering the same skill-set.
Lopez is the toughest one to argue Love against. Although he’s not exactly a great defender nor rebounder either. Generally teams with really good 5’s don’t start 2-22. The problem with Brook Lopez is an issue of spacing. Pairing him with Al only draws more defenders into the post.
Love isn’t a Franchise Guy in that he’ll probably never be a triple-team commanding scorer. His special skill is his ability to rebound along with being an excellent passing and shooting big man. The common objection is that he can’t defend. BBP’s evaluation system didn’t find this to be the case at all. His Defensive Woes are probably highlighted playing next to the awful Al Jefferson. If Love becomes Wes Unseld with an Offensive Game this is a much rarer skill-set than anything these other players provide.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 13, 2009 11:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mayo is Memphis' best scorer
He’s the guy they run their offense through, and he consistently creates scoring opportunities with the ball.
Saying that Memphis is only playing better because of Gay and Randolph is like saying the Lakers only won a championship because of Gasol and Bynum. Kobe I guess didn’t really have anything to do with it.
The Grizzlies are built around Mayo. He’s their go to guy, everyone else plays in support of him. And they’re winning, so I think it’s fair to say he’s a legit franchise player.
At any rate, what do the Wolves really need? Rebounding? Or a scoring wing player? Even McHale said the team needed a wing player who could put the ball on the floor and score.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 11:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mayo's
as much of a Franchise Player as Ben Gordon. The Grizzles were 28th in Offensive Rating last year with the Maestro OJ Mayo directing the Offense. Memphis is currently 17th in Offensive Rating. This is a byproduct of vastly improved production at the 4-5. Compare the advanced stats between the Warrick/Gasol combo to the Gasol/Randolph combo.
As far as comparing Mayo’s advanced stats- your argument really falls apart. For a guy who the Offense is run through he has an assist rate of 12%. Compare this to a true franchise player like Dwyane Wade- 30%, Lebron James-42%, Brandon Roy 25%, or even Kobe 21%. Combine this with Subpar Rebounding, and medicority throughout the rest of your game. I feel confident in saying that OJ Mayo is an average NBA Player.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 13, 2009 11:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Advanced stats are a computer's domain
I mean, by conventional and advanced stats, David Lee is better than Garnett. Right?
Bottom line is the Grizzlies are built around Mayo, and they’re winning. What else matters?
Making it a stats argument is like what happened last year when everyone was up about Durant hurting his teammates’ +/- scores.
At any rate, Love isn’t a guy you build around, and I think most Wolves fans are getting way carried away when they say we should.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Advanced Stats
Generally consider Kevin Garnett the best player of the decade. As far as OJ Mayo he’s the third-best player on a team that’s 9-13. Lastly I would be curious which outlet rated Kevin Garnett as a better player than David Lee as far as Per Minute Production. Your right in that advanced stats can undervalue defense although no one would call OJ Mayo a lockdown defender.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's Kobe going to seriously say
BBP’s numbers tell a different story.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Durant
Wasn’t helping OKC win games last year. Look at their record. Coincidence or not, it wasn’t until he was called out nationally about the +/- stuff that he started playing defense and trying to include his teammates more, and now they’re winning a lot more games.
Jose Cordoba’s comments answers the Lee/Garnett question best, but I’d also point out that teams built around KG made the playoffs 8 years straight in the Western Conference, whereas Lee’s teams in the weak East. Well, ugh.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 15, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as your question
As to the Wolves Needs.
How many of the four factors does OJ Mayo dominate in on a night in and night out basis? ZERO!!
How many does K.Love potentially dominate in? 2 (Rebounds and Free-Throw Attempts)
Rebounding is pretty important since it wins possession battle- which creates more shot attempts. Losing the possession battle with Criag Smith and Ryan Gomes puts this team in no position to win.
Dave Berri’s whose studies quantify what skills a given player provides a team at greater than a replacement level graded out value of Mayo and Love as .035 vs .208. Thereby rating Love as an vastly more valuable player.
The Similarly very Good BBP-gave OJ Mayo a WARP of 0.8 which wins produced by a given player in comparsion to a replacement level player. Where as Kevin Love had a WARP of 8.4
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll just say what Kahn said before the draft
Stats only tell half the story. Just use common sense.
Love duplicated what we already had. Mayo fills a void we badly need filled.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Before we drafted Love...
Al Jefferson was literally the only post player on the roster worth giving a single NBA minute to. It made sense to add another excellent post player, especially if you believe that he’s better than the “scorer” in Mayo.
And I feel confident we can fill said void with someone as good or better than Mayo, which makes having Love instead a positive thing.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 12:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't it have made more sense to draft Lopez then?
So at least one of them was 7 feet tall?
Look, I’m not saying that Love is a bad player. Just that I think we could have made a more appropriate selection that draft and been better off for it.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it very well may have.
Lopez is a true center, and has been good enough that he might have been the best pick there.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At the time no one was talking about Lopez as a top 5 pick. It’s easy to engage hindsight and ask that question, but in reality he was not considered worth a top 5, let alone a top 3 pick. It’s pretty safe to say no one expected him to be this good..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Dec 14, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The issues
Were whether he was Physical Enough to defend and rebound at the NBA level inside. He hasn’t exactly proven his doubters wrong in these regards. Again if Brook Lopez was really that great would his team be 2-22?
As far as K.Love has anyone noticed the Uptick in Al’s productivity since he returned. Without defenders always collapsing inside- since you have a big that can draw defenders away from the basket. One thing Thorpe rightly pointed out about Brook Lopez’s game is that he has taken a step back as far as a floor-spacer this season.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Love vs. Lopez
Pre-draft, all the available information, aside from combine measurements, was college play. I watched every Love vs. Lopez matchup that year (they met head to head 3 times). Love certainly held his own matched directly against Brook, even with the Robin tag team in the paint. As stated, there was a lot of skepticism pre-draft about Lopez. Many expected they’d get what Robin ended up providing. I had more faith in Brook than most, but was not sold as a top 5. Granted, I also never would have bet the house on Love, despite his high skill level.
by dropstep on Dec 14, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know this isn't your whole point...
But I don’t think the Wolves really bet the house on Love, considering that they were able to shed Jaric’s deal and move Miller for a potentially valuable asset/player in Rubio. That’s different than if they’d just picked him at #3.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This will just go round and round
Here’s Stop N Pop settling this argument once and for all.
http://www.canishoopus.com/2009/1/23/727873/the-importance-of-possessi
Here’s Stop N Pop on OJ Mayo vs Ben Gordon
http://www.canishoopus.com/2009/1/6/710329/the-real-o-j
It’s important to remember before the Wolves drafted Kevin Love- They were giving serious minutes to Mad Dog, Antonie Walker, and Craig Smith on their front-line. Britt Robson’s writing during the 2007-2008 season broke down these problems in depth. Considering the Wolves entering 2008-2009 had 3 players that shot better than 40% from deep (Miller, McCants, and Foye)- Love was a vastly greater need than Mayo.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 12:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's important to remember about us drafting Love is...
…it was because McHale had a man crush on him. It wasn’t because he was the best player available, or the best of the team, or because he solved a ton of our problems. It was because Mac was obsessed with him…we all knew that going into the draft. It was documented.
No one should fool themselves into thinking the team thought it was making the smart pick trading for Love. It was total bias on McHale’s part (and even some on Love’s part) that brought him here.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Think of it this way
McHale drafted Mayo with the intention to keep him. Meaning even he didn’t think Love was the better player, and he even basically said that on draft night, and then through his actions in the trade. McHale didn’t think Mayo for Love was an equal trade. He only considered it equal when Mike Miller was added in.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
A lot has changed since draft night. And Memphis obviously thought Love was worth drafting that high. They just overvalued Mayo whereas (to McHale’s credit) McHale did not. Mayo is a good player, no doubt about that… but is he really the driving force behind Memphis’ wins? And you cite McHale’s man crush on Love as the reason for drafting him. Well so far I haven’t heard much defense for Mayo beyond a slight man crush here either.
I think Mayo will have the better career, but right now, the numbers don’t lie. Kevin Love is helping his team more than Mayo is.
by Mplax on Dec 14, 2009 1:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just think that no one on the team...except McHale...thought Love was the best player for us
I think that’s something we as fans have gone overboard to convince ourselves of so we don’t have to admit we might have gotten it wrong.
I mean, up until last year, Wolves fans doggedly defended Randy Foye too…
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 1:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is a bit misused logic
If McHale had such a man crush on Love, he would have just drafted him 3. or worked out a draft and trade on the spot. it wasn’t until well into the 2nd round that we traded Mayo for love, and only when Mem showed they were willing to over pay for him. These are not the actions of a GM with a Huge Man Crush on a player.
I am not saying McHale didn’t like what Love brings to the table, and didn’t value them, but lets not get all revisionist history here.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 14, 2009 7:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/news/story?id=3463045
ESPN.com reported on Tuesday that Wolves GM Kevin McHale was infatuated with Love, but felt that the team had to select Mayo and use him to acquire more assets.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/buzzerbeater/2008/06/
But should Kevin McHale indulge his infatuation with Kevin Love at #3 and Mayo fall to #4, the Supes will take him
http://www.reclinergm.com/76ers-rumors-elton-brand-available-for-trade/
From all accounts it looks like Kevin McHale is clearly man-crush infatuated with Kevin Love, and would definitely not let him go.
http://ballhype.com/story/chad_ford_s_mock_draft_version_6_0/
For instance, we’ve got word that Kevin McHale is infatuated with Kevin Love and might take him at No. 3.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, it was well documented
And while McHale might have been playing it smart taking Mayo as a trade asset, no one for a second should believe he acquired Love because he thought it was the smart decision.
He had an obsession. It’s that simple.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm not sure I understand
what you’re saying.
He had an obsession, yes… But as a general manager of a basketball team… the obsession was because he thought he was the best player…
I’m not sure how you can differentiate McHale being “infatuated” with Love from him thinking he was the best pick for the team.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he thought it was the best pick for the team...
….BECAUSE he was obsessed. Not because Love was actually the best player. Lack of objectivity.
It’s kind of like how Blazers fans absolutely refuse to admit Durant might have been a better pick than Oden. They’re so biased to support Oden and not admit KP might have messed up that they let that overrule common sense. And I definitely think Mac let his obsession for Love overrule his common sense.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just think...
If he had thought O.J. Mayo was better, that in itself would have meant he wasn’t “obsessed” with Love. He had something of a mancrush, yes.
And the general consensus was that Mayo was the third best player, yes. But McHale didn’t let his obsession with Love choose him over a player he knew was better. He simply believed, in contrast to the general consensus, that Love was the best player available.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't make sense
If McHale thought Love was better, he would have just picked Love, right?
The fact he picked Mayo and the traded him for Love AND Miller would indicate he knew Mayo was better. He just like Love more.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
It could also mean that he considered both of them equal but realized that Mayo’s draft stock was higher and that Love could be added by trading down. Also, who cares if McHale was infatuated with Love yet considered him the best player? Why is his opinion used as support for the idea that Mayo is a better player?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying I don't think Love was the best pick we could have made that year
The argument is McHale acquired him because he thought Love was the best player, and I don’t think that was the case at all.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your original point
Was that you wouldn’t take him over anyone in that lottery except Joe Alexander. People were responding to that original statement.
The reason the team traded for Love is because the number of other assets that were sent the Wolves’ way were too many to ignore and because any difference between he and Mayo was negligible enough to be worth it. Every published report said that the teams had discussed a deal for a while but it didn’t become finalized until Miller was added to it, and without Miller, there’s not even a shot at Rubio.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
re: what Kahn said
Stats only tell half the story. Just use common sense.
Love duplicated what we already had. Mayo fills a void we badly need filled.
This from the man who drafted two PGs in a row.
Stats tell much of the story. Furthermore, stats can reveal the part of the story you’re not seeing. Basketball purists/anti-stats people hate that element of it, because many of the best scouts intuitively see the things that advanced stats quantify. But they don’t always see all of it, and it’s very threatening when a guy with Excel can point out what you missed despite your expertise.
Also, in terms of this team, Kevin Love has influenced more than anyone else (apparently) the biggest team stat that matters, W’s and L’s. I think he’s pretty valuable.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 15, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Kings were smart
knowing that anything less than #2 was going to be a financial challenge for Rubio. They risked not choosing the BPA and took Evans instead. It has worked wonderfully for them. Kahn had no such choice – can’t pass up the #2 guy in the draft at position #5 – but the $$$ bit us in the butt.
Personally, I was pumped because I though we were going to get Evans and Curry (I expected Curry to be traded for other assets) Really disappointed when it went Rubio and Flynn.
Has anyone else noticed how lost Flynn is defending away from the ball? He is fine on the ball but his positioning away from the ball is terrible. He turns his head rather than drop stepping. Hope they get that figured out quickly.
by Just A Fan on Dec 13, 2009 6:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's the Syracuse zone!
Yes, Flynn loses his man way, way, way too much. He is the give-and-go dream defender. Evans did it in the first play of the game last night. You’d think he learned his lesson after he lost the game for us by turning his head on Chris Paul’s inbound pass.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 13, 2009 6:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evans and Curry...
I think would have been a really intriguing backcourt, and I was hoping we would take both. Curry’s a smaller guard who stays on the perimeter and hits jumpers, while Evans is a bigger one who gets into the paint and generally does what he wants. I just feel like they’d complement each other really snugly.
It would be an interesting pair of combo guards, with each covering up the other’s positional flaws (Curry as a PG covering up Evans’ lack of a jumpshot, and Evans as a SG covering up Curry’s lack of penetration).
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted that combo heading into the draft
I really felt like it would have been like pairing Brandon Roy with Gilbert Arenas.
And yes, I think Curry has Arenas-like potential.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
still early, but Curry hasn't been overly impressive thus far.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Dec 13, 2009 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not in volume
But he’s averaging 11ppg on 45% shooting…38% from deep. Plus 5 assists and nearly 2 steals a game to boot.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What Oceanary said
He’s been very good, but his PER is low mostly because of a low usage rate. He’s already looked like a better distributor than Flynn, despite his lack of experience as a point guard.
by John Doe on Dec 14, 2009 3:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flynn
hasn’t been playing great defense, but I hardly think he deserves to be beaten up for not playing lockdown defense on Evans, who is large and a physical beast as a SG, which is his true position, since I ignore Kings fans’ claims to the contrary.
by Esohny on Dec 13, 2009 7:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Onion's version of your iPod purchase
New Device Desirable, Old Device Undesirable
“The new device is an improvement over the old device, making it more attractive for purchase by all Americans,” said Thomas Wakefield, a spokesperson for the large conglomerate that manufactures the new device. “The old device is no longer sufficient. Consumers should no longer have any use or longing for the old device.”
Somehow I always seem able to live with the fact that other teams get some nice talent. The presence of Tyreke Evans on a competitor doesn’t mean Jonny Flynn is chopped hepatic tissue. Not at all.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 13, 2009 8:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i'll admit..
…that the ipod analogy doesn’t go all the way but i do think that guards like flynn (little speedsters) have met their match in evans.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 13, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evans is a beast...
and if he really is a point guard, then I think everyone failed to see just how little his bad jumpshot mattered pre-draft. When you can power through any and all challengers, why would you even bother taking a jumper?
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LeBron has worked on his jumper quite a bit
There are good reasons why.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.. I think he shot maybe 1 all game because he simply didn’t need to. If you’ve got the smarts to not take bad shots, then it’s not that big an issue. It would behoove him to work in it, sure, but man he’s tough even without it.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Dec 14, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, sure
There have always been big guards who pose matchup problems, and if this franchise didn’t realize what that meant going in I’d be miffed.
The emotional part of the analogy is where I part company. Your iPod did work fine, so it wasn’t somehow obsoleted by the new models. Teams all have some talent. I like Kevin Love, and don’t have a huge complex about the fact that Portland’s got Aldridge too.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 14, 2009 6:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't feel guilt over not having Evans
Evens was not available to us. Most everyone agreed he could be very, very good. Whether he is as good as he is playing right now remains to be seen. He could be a game-changer, a la Magic Johnson/Lebron, sort of. That’s not a slight on Flynn or Rubio. Thompson, I think, is one of those people who seems to play better against us than he does against other teams, thus coloring our judgment of his abilities. He was a legit pick for the Kings at that spot. Some of the favorable opinion of him comes from his being an underrated pick in the first place.
by ogishkemuncie on Dec 13, 2009 9:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
It was out of our hands. Only thing that maybe could be said is that we should have traded up for him, but at the same time, basically everyone except Kings fans was convinced the Kings would take Rubio.
Maybe Kahn should have taken those reports more seriously. Still, it’s not like we drafted him and traded him away. RIGHT MCHALE???
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kings fan here
I would say about 95% of thought we would and should take Rubio at 4 when he dropped to us. The 5% were the smart ones who realized Geoff Petrie does what he wants. He’s usually right though.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Dec 14, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I talked to a couple Kings fans on the GameFaqs NBA board...
Who insisted to me, all through May and June, that the Kings would take Evans. And made a very very logical argument as to why.
I actually thought the Kings would take Evans too, and even posted that on several Wolves forums (where I was promptly laughed at). Too bad for us….I’m sure Kahn was betting the Kings would take Rubio too.
Oh well…I can’t really blame him for it. Anyone can say any team should have moved up in any draft. It’s not the same as what McHale did.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And actually, LeBron understated I think
Because from what I’ve seen, Wall is more athletic than Rose is.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Most Kings fans wanted Rubio
Whoever you talked to was smart.
We didn’t start getting reports that the Kings were really interested in Evans until the workouts began and he started dominating those. Then it wasn’t a complete surprise when we didn’t select Rubio, although a lot of people were disappointed. I was sort of disappointed, because Rubio was the flash, but then we got Sergio too, and I realized that Evans and K-Mart could end up being the best backcourt in the NBA in a couple years.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Dec 14, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I do think...
It’s too early to regret having Rubio instead of Evans.
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if it's regret...
….rather than getting something that’s really cool but that also came out at the same time as something that made the cool thing less useful.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 13, 2009 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't there a decent chance...
that in two years, when Rubio is two months into his rookie year and popping up on highlights every night and the Wolves are above .500, that Kings fans will think something similar?
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rubio
through 12 games in the ACB Spanish league
12 games
19 minutes average (They play 20 minutes halves like college)
5.2 points
4.3 assists
10.8 Valuation (Euro Equivalent of PER – Top players are usually ~20 The current top rated player is Tariq Kirksay with Val of 30)
His Euroleague stats are pretty similar.
He is still a very young player. But I would not at all be surprised if his market value slides for the next few years. There is nothing going on right now in Europe that suggests he is developing in to a future NBA superstar. (A very nice player, yes – a build around star, not based on the stats yet)
by Just A Fan on Dec 13, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, he's not exactly lighting it up.
But using Hollinger’s Euro translation formulas (I saw this somewhere on Hoopus), it translates to much better assist/facilitation numbers. I think he’s playing better than his Americanized stat-line suggests.
And just remember what Jennings’ stat line looked like in Europe. I think skilled, creative guards can have much more success in the NBA than they do in the rigid European style of play.
by LoveTo on Dec 13, 2009 10:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind that Euro stats are recorded very differently
Jennings averaged 8 points and 2 assists last year in Italy.
For one, assists in Euroleagues are counted way different than assists here. I think it’s like a 1.5 – 1 assist ratio between Euro and NBA ball, so Rubio can be said to be effectively averaging 6 assists in just 20 minutes, which would translate into like, 12 assists a game in the NBA. That’s Stockton-type numbers.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
God, I get so tired of seeing people quote Euroleague stats when they don’t know what they’re doing. Rubio’s assist rate over there is unworldly. They don’t give people assists for setting up a jump shot over there.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Dec 14, 2009 6:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention the inherent differences in team structure and how the game is played. Ricky’s role is NOT to score. When he’s in there, it’s purely as a facilitator. On top of that, the EL is not a slasher’s league because, IIRC, there’s no 3 second rule so teams pack the paint. There also tends to be established hierarchies of players, so, as far as I understand it you don’t see young hotshots get big minutes or big roles on teams when there are established vets around (i.e. Jennings and his small role).
Put Ricky on an NBA court with some finishers and let him do his thing and I guarantee he’ll show you why he was so highly regarded.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Dec 14, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"The guy is LeBron James at the point, and yes, I went there."
I agree with your post about Evans, but give credit where credit is due with your quote…
by timberwolves f on Dec 13, 2009 9:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
?
My neighbor?
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 14, 2009 8:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Wall
This could be a true test of Kahn’s ability to trade and build a team, as well as a sign of his arrogance.
The trade area alludes to the fact we all know even if the Wolves win 15 game this season they will draft 3rd or 4th. Can Kahn use the assets he has to move up into the top spot to get Wall. Will he risk looking like a fool by trading up and hoping the move doesn’t blow up on him.
The arrogance comes in two areas. One, if they are lucky enough to get the #1, will he acknowledge that Wall is better than the two PG’s he drafted this summer. Two, if he needs to trade up, will he move one or two of HIS guys to get to #1. It’s easy to come in and trade McHale’s guys, will he be as willing to trade Flynn or Rubio to bring in Wall?? Will be interesting to watch.
by Rumblebee on Dec 13, 2009 11:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
if they throw in the towel on Flynn-starting-at-PG later this season, and Sessions finishes the year strongly (assuming Ramon’s still on the team).
by PoorDick on Dec 13, 2009 11:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No one's trading away Wall
If he’s really that good, whatever team gets the #1 pick is keeping him. I mean, you guys talk about him like he’s LeBron…would the Cavs have traded the #1 pick in 03? Hell no.
If we don’t get the #1 pick in the lottery, we can forget about John Wall, it’s that simple.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 11:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
There will be no trading up for Wall.
On a side note, you do misrepresent the arguments of people disagreeing with you by saying people “talk about him like he’s LeBron,” or “think it’s John Wall or bust,” or when you say people seem to think we should build around Love.
No, we don’t think Wall is LeBron 2.0 necessarily. But we do think, and have ample reason to think, that he is a special kind of talent that doesn’t come around too often. We also realize that there are other good players in the draft. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post on Canis Hoopus that I thought suggested we should build around Kevin Love. Mostly, everyone seems to think he will be a great complementary piece to whoever we eventually do want to build around, a harder one to acquire than a player similar to O.J. Mayo.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen at least two posts here saying Love is our franchise player
And one that said he would be better than Duncan. I see it on other Wolves boards, the Star Trib blog, the TWolves live feed…I’m not making it up.
But I only used the LeBron comparison to emphasize the point. The Cavs wouldn’t have traded LeBron, whoever has the #1 pick this year won’t trade Wall.
I think Jim Pete was right on last night. Ty Evans is the LeBron of point guards. Wall I think will ultimately be known as the Wade of point guards…not overwhelmingly strong, but unguardably quick and freakishly athletic.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, I do remember the Duncan one now that you mention it.
As a firm Love supporter, I do not endorse that view. And I like the “Wade of point guards” comparison. Could be spot on.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see LeBron's praise for Wall yesterday?
“He’ll be the No. 1 pick in the draft. He has incredible speed with the ball. He’s like Derrick Rose. Derrick is much stronger than he is, but he has some of the same athleticism that Derrick has and Coach Cal is going to let those type of guys play. He has shown why he came out being the top player in high school and is one of the top 5 players in college.”
LeBron also endorsed Steph Curry and Jonny Flynn last year. He does know how to judge talent, that’s for sure.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
John Wall is....
really ambidextrous too. He plays a lot with his left hand, he drives, passes, and finishes with his left hand with lay-ups and dunks. He is amazing.
by bench_blob on Dec 14, 2009 12:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's more athletic that Rose too
Maybe not in terms of jumping higher, but with lateral quickness and getting off the ground faster.
That’s where Wade really shines…not so much how high he jumps, but how fast he gets up there.
I think LeBron undersells Wall when we says he and Rose have “the same” athleticism. Wall definitely appears to be the better athlete.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I also think he’s longer than Rose. Rose had decent length, but Walls arms are crazy long.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Dec 14, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Every one has a price, part of the point of my question
Will Kahn pay the price. I can name two high lottery teams right now that may trade the #1 pick if they get it (let’s assume the Wolves are #3 in the draft). Utah get the Knicks pick and already have a PG for the next decade. Also, what if New Jersey gets the pick. Would they prefer a flashy player like Rubio to sell to the New York market, and overseas as well??
I think a compelling case could be made that several teams would trade from #1 to #3 if they also get Rubio’s rights.
by Rumblebee on Dec 14, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Jazz and Nets could easily take Wall
Williams played co-point at Illinois, and Harris played with Jason Terry in the backcourt in Dallas for extended stretches. Both teams need top-end talent, regardless of position. Also, why would the Nets want Rubio instead of Wall when Wall isn’t under contract to another Euro team for a year?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a lottery
And The worst team almost never gets the #1 pick
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 14, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(we know)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 14, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was responding to those saying
there is NO chance a team that gets the #1 pick will give up Wall. I’m just saying there are some teams that would consider a trade. Sloan was gushing about Love the other day. I bet if Kahn offered the #3 overall pick (if that’s were the Wolves end up) and Love that the Jazz would jump at the trade. They would replace Boozer with Love and use the #3 pick to get take a wing player.
Also, I didn’t say Rubio straight up for Wall. I said the #3 pick and Rubio. If NJ could get Favors right away and Rubio in a year I have to assume they would be tempted.
Turn it around from the Wolves perspective. If they get the #1 choice and Sacto has #3, would the Wolves trade #1 for the #3 and Tyreke? I bet they would.
by Rumblebee on Dec 14, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evans is a franchise player
Love is not. That’s the difference.
I agree the Jazz would consider not taking Wall, but something tells me, if they get the top pick, they’ll simply take Derrick Favors with it.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyreke maybe not the best example
I was trying to think of a team that will probably draft in the top 3-4 and would want to move up to #1, while also having a young player the Wolves may want.
Perhaps a better question would be, would the Wolves move from #1 down to #3 if New Jersey had that pick and offered Brook Lopez?? If they really like Flynn or Rubio I assume they would take that deal.
Main point is, unless the #1 pick is LeBron caliber the other team will usually listen to offers.
by Rumblebee on Dec 14, 2009 6:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now that I think about it, there are two teams that I could see trading Wall
Jazz and Bulls. Bulls especially.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Intriguing
Big AL and the #3 pick to the Bulls if Chicago got the #1. Maybe add something to get Noah as well. Although I’ll puke if the Bulls get the #1 pick again.
by Rumblebee on Dec 15, 2009 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evans isn't a franchise player
If he is, then so are guys like Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Devin Harris, and Gerald Wallace. He’s good, but he’s played 22 games.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 14, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This could also be a test for us fans
Because everyone seems to think it’s John Wall or bust. He’s hardly the only prospect in this draft. Maybe the best, but by no means the only one.
It’ll be really sad if June comes and Wolves fans are upset we had to “settle” for Favors, Turner, or Wes Johnson.
by Oceanary on Dec 13, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From a Kings fan
In case you guys are curious, Geoff Petrie and the Kings never had any intention to take Ricky Rubio. Tyreke was their pick all along. They would have taken him as high as #2. After the draft, Jerry Reynolds made a less than flattering comparison about Ricky. The player he resembles most in the NBA is Bucks PG Luke Ridoneur. Jerry Reynolds saw Tyreke as a young Walt Frazier (combo HOF guard for Knicks). I never saw him play, but apparently he was pretty good.
If Tyreke was picked #2 or #3, the Kings would have taken Jonny Flynn at #4. (The Kings FO never came out and said that point blank, but a lot of post draft talk strongly hinted as such.)
I’d be concerned if I were a Wolves fan and seeing Ricky struggle this year. Now is the age to expect steady growth and development, and it is not happening. Hopefully he can become a star, and bring new excitement to Wolves and NBA in 2011-12, but I have my doubts.
Kevin Love is better player than Jason Thompson, IMO. JT played good last night, but he tends to make silly plays, and leads league in fouls. He is a hard worker, and definitely improved from rookie season, but Love is a better fundamental player, and awesome rebounder. He may not be as athletic, but Love has serious game.
Jonny Flynn is a good looking player too. I would expect him to play better against Evans next week in the rematch. But I think the ceilings on both players differs significantly. Jonny is a potential star, whereas I see Tyreke as a probable superstar.
One more off the wall prediction: Omri Casspi at #23 will have a better pro career than Ricky Rubio at #5.
The last PG Geoff Petrie took prior to Tyreke in the lottery was ‘White Chocolate’ Jason Williams at #7. I like the comparison of Rubio and J-Will, because both are flashy pass-first PGs. J-Will was maybe MORE flashy at Florida than Ricky. But when J-Will played, You Tube was not as prominent, so not everyone knew.
The difference between the two is that J-Will was an incredible athlete at 6’1" and a great shooter. He had a pure shooting stroke, could stop on a dime from way beyond ‘3’. Ricky can’t run or jump or shoot like J-Will. J-Will was an incredible ball handler and passer, equal or superior to Ricky. Ricky is 2 to 3 inches taller than J-Will, so maybe that’s where his advantage lies. I really want to see Ricky do well, I just think there is bust potential written all over him.
by bench_blob on Dec 14, 2009 12:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I remember telling Jerry Zgoda on the Star Trib that the Kings were 100% drafting Evans
He promptly printed a column the next day speculating the Kings would “make the right choice” and pick Rubio.
At least he admitted he was wrong to me on draft night….
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Omri Casspi
will not have a better career than Rubio. I don’t expect Casspi to be lighting up the Dream Team any time soon (and if “lighting up” is too much, how about “holding his own”?). So on that basis, Rubio has already had a better career than Casspi. And don’t say I’m being presumptuous because your post makes you the King of Presumption. Just because Casspi came over and Rubio didn’t doesn’t make him better. You compared Rubio to Luke Ridnour?!!!! I am going to save this post and re-post it in a few years. Wow.
by BDavige on Dec 14, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I saw Jerry Reynolds compared him to Ridnour--
You need to stop listening to Jerry Reynolds.
by BDavige on Dec 14, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A few thoughts...
I don’t want to argue who is better, Evans or Rubio. I was higher on Evans during the draft, but I liked Rubio too and want them both to be successful in the NBA. The answer to that question won’t be apparent for 4 or 5 or more years after Rubio gets comfortable playing in the NBA, probably. But there are a couple of things that I don’t agree with in your post.
I think Rubio’s Olympic performance has been very overrated. “Lighting up” would be the biggest hyperbole of all mankind! “Holding his own” is basically saying, “didn’t absolutely suck”, which is what I saw. He definitely didn’t suck, but I wonder if he did better than some other top teenage talent would have. I think you’d have to add some "if"s onto any statement about his Olympic performance:
Rubio played really well …if you consider he was only a teenager.
Rubio played great …if our expectations for him was to be completely embarrassed.
As far as Jerry Reynolds goes, I respect his opinion on many basketball related topics. He isn’t just the King’s TV announcer. He also has head coaching experience and has worked in the Kings’ front office as a scout and player personnel director for many years. So I wouldn’t just totally discredit his opinion. He was one of the people in the FO that was very strong on Evans over Rubio. Is his Rubio to Ridnour comparison going to be accurate? I hope not, but he isn’t the type of guy to talk out of his ass without thinking first, so when he talks, I listen.
by cbsf on Dec 14, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with Rubio
was that he seemed completely unable to penetrate against NBA guys (and you must be able top do that in today’s game) – but his handle is out of this world.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 14, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say he simply "didn't get embarrassed."
I’d say it was more like a handful of truly exceptional plays (no look fast-break dish to Gasol, a couple full-court whips to open three-point shooters, the behind-the-back dribble to burn Kidd and then the floater over LeBron, and a couple nice steals) against a backdrop of “just holding his own” throughout the rest of the game.
I was impressed then, and immediately started hoping we’d draft him. The hype is definitely dying down lately, but I think it will pick back up when he starts doing his thing in the NBA.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry Reynolds actually has a very accurate track record
with judging talent, as Kings current director player personnal. We would not have hesitated to pick Ricky Rubio if he was the answer to our PG woes. Last year Beno Udrih was really stinky at that position. If Rubio was the savior he was marketed to be, we would have zapped him up in a heartbeat!!
I go back to the Jason Williams comparison. J-Will is a flashy, dazzling PG. This guy was a wizard in the open court coming into the NBA. The basketball was on a string when he dribbled. Now we know what type of career he had. Very productive, never an all-star. Ricky Rubio is the same mold of a player, but there is one problem. Well actually a few problems. His shooting is very suspect. His athletic skills pale in comparison to J-Will. His foot speed, jumping ability, driving and finishing are all suspect. Kings saw this and said ‘no thanks’.
Lack of quickness + lack of shooting = Minnesota, ‘We have a problem.’
I am not trying to bash the guy and would love for him to succeed. When Kings had him in for interview he came across as a GREAT kid, genuine guy eager to do well. But being a great kid does not make you a great basketball player.
And Omri Casspi will be a better pro than Ricky Rubio….book it.
by bench_blob on Dec 14, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Casspi looks likely to be considered
The best SF to come out of that draft. Still a rookie but – just saying he was a steal, either by luck or design.
(And boy did we need some good luck!)
[Disclaimer: He needs to completely reinvent his FT to justify that claim]
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 14, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to be a troll
(this was linked to STR)
Lopez is going to be an All-Star Center for many years, maybe this year, even on that terrible team. Lots of people passed him by. It goes that way sometimes.
Reke Evans we think will also be an All-Star in a few years, I for one agree with the LaBron at the PG comparison – but we’ll see, a lot of work to do on his jumper.
I don’t know what the true thought was behind the 3 PG draft you guys had, trade assets from the Year of the PG IMO, but Flynn is going to be good in the end, he’s just not a ROY guy.
I don’t like Randolph’s future if anyone cares, skinny in the body and skinny in the head IMO – BUT
Looking at you guys, I just don’t know what the thought was in pairing Al with KLove. Both are very good players but one of them either has to go – or go to the bench (Love) because they appear top be just too similar in skillset to me. You can almost use the same scouting report (overstatement but). One or the other does need to be paired with an athletic type compliment that can open the paint for them, so I understand the Randolph lust.
As far as coaching, you adjust your strategy to the personnel, its nearly impossible the other way around. The triangle also really limits PG play so its hard to see what Flynn can bring and Sessions is dying from it and decreasing his value.
And seriously, can’t Kahn at least find a temporary inexpensive ‘chucker’ to comeoff the bench and TRY and keep defenses honest?
(and cbsf – JerryR is still the director of player personnel I believe)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 14, 2009 3:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Love and Jefferson
Are very complimentary offensively, not so much defensively. In fact, Love might be an ideal compliment to Jefferson offensively. The problems begin and end on the defensive side of the ball with these two.
As for the triangle and PGs, it seems like Rambis is starting to allow Flynn and Sessions to dominate the ball a little more to create for themselves and others. But that’s just my own observation.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 14, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at ALL defensively
And against a frontcourt with length and athleticism, they don’t really compliment each other on offense either, since those teams have proven they can easily shut one of them down completely.
Wolves fans favor Love, and I get that, but he is the harder player to build a frontcourt around. He doesn’t have Al’s solidness, and certainly doesn’t have his post scoring ability. Love fits the system better, but in the end, you still need a player that can consistently score in the post, and Love just hasn’t shown the ability to do that. Al has.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
Love is very young, and is relatively new to being physically overmatched. If he can do his homework so successfully on developing his outside shot, I think he can also effectively develop some post moves. A good post game don’t necessarily require a lot of size or quickness (witness Jefferson scoring on a leg and a half). Let’s see where he goes. Right now Flynn is having a huge problem finishing inside. I think he’ll improve also.
by dropstep on Dec 14, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Reason Wolves Fans
Tend to Prefer Kevin Love are
1. He’s a Better Rebounder
2. He’s a Better Defender
3. He’s a Better Passer
4. He gets to the line more often
5. He’s a better shooter
6. He’s more effective off the ball (Setting Screens)
7. He’s 3 1/2 Years Younger
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 14, 2009 7:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
But will he be able to carry a team in the post?
Jefferson can, and like I said before, I think if we took Jefferson away and asked Love to carry that scoring load, we’d see a lot of these 3-14 shooting nights from him.
Like Zgoda said in his blog, there’s no substitute for height and length in the NBA, and Love doesn’t have either. He’s going to have a successful career, but it won’t be as a guy any team builds its frontcourt, much less its team around.
by Oceanary on Dec 14, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know a bunch of us Kings fans are tresspassing
But I just want to say, I think a few years down the road, the Wolves’ draft may be viewed as one of the top 3 in 2009. You got the PG you wanted and a guy who is averaging almost five assists in twenty minutes in a league where Jennings was savaged at the same age. Rubio is still very young. He is playing in a league where assists are not counted the same as they are here—and a league that in my opinion is much tougher than the NCAA—for a new team to him. While you build your team, he just gets more experience and becomes more valuable. If he had come over, either he or Flynn would have suffered. Assuming Flynn becomes your guy, what an incredible trade chip Rubio becomes.
Yes, I’m delighted we got Rubio and Casspi, but to my fellow Kings fans who think Casspi will be better than Rubio or that Rubio will be a bust, may I politely say, “You have no idea what you are talking about. And until Rubio makes the jump to the NBA, you have no idea how good he will be.”
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Meant to say I am delighted we got Evans and Casspi.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Dec 15, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the input
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 15, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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