Chad Ford's T-wolves Trade Idea
by Blakeley on Dec 22, 2009 12:38 PM CST
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PrintDuring Today's Chat, Chad Ford threw out this trade idea...
I think the Kings are already beginning to explore their options with Kevin Martin. Clearly Tyreke Evans is the teams new alpha dog and they'd be better off with him playing the 2 and getting a real point guard on the team. I think there will be a lot of interest in Martin when he comes back and could definitely see the Kings making a move by the trade deadline. I wonder if the Wolves would send a package of Mark Blount and Oleksiy Pecherov's expiring contract and the rights to Ricky Rubio whether the Kings would bite. Would be a great deal for both teams.
What do you guys think? Who wins this deal?
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I'd do it in a second
Get a proven player at a position where we have terrible options. Rubio is a big risk even if he decides to come here.
But our camp space is right on the lake!
and the girl’s camp is right on the other side!
haha
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Dec 23, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Look at our collection of contracts
Apparently our site is too near the garbage.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Works for me.
We get a proven shooter at our weakest position. I would like it if we kept Rubio somehow though because I’m really interested to see how he would do for the Wolves.
It does seem to be a balanced trade. Somehow the wolves need to infuse some talent. It would also make drafting John Wall a bit more plausable in that as it stand I just cant envision the log jam that would be Flynn, Sessions, Rubio and Wall
Good point on the Point Guards, and I wonder whether we can make this type of trade with more knowledge after the season is over and draft order decided. No sense trading Rubio’s rights now for an injured player when the deal will still be their in the summer.
Man, no thanks
If we’re going to trade Rubio, I’d prefer to get a guy who doesn’t have a glass jaw and a guy who does more than put up points for a bad team with no other options.
Wouldn't do it
I’m not sold on Martin. The guy always seems to get hurt. I think Rubio has a higher upside anyways.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Agreed
Kevin Martin is a nice player, but risky with the injuries and contract. Our cap space is essentially gone and the Rubio chip spent. I don’t know about the upside of the team especially since an inseason trade would likely bump our win total slightly.
Aren’t we better served to keep Rubio and try to leverage the cap space into something big? Another response in the Ford chat was regarding cap space trades.
Dom (DC)
Based on today’s economy, do you see any one-sided trades happening again this year in the league, a la Pau Gasol?
Chad Ford (1:40 PM)
Yes. The salary cap (and thus the luxury tax threshold) are expected to drop big time this summer. That means GMs will be scrambling to get their payroll either further under the cap or under the luxury tax threshold now. I expect we’ll see several very lopsided deals where one team steals talent and the other team gets back tax relief or more cap space.
Why give up two assets when we could get in on a lopsided deal and keep Rubio for a future trade?
I couldn't agree more
The Kings would be considering unloading Martin for very much those reasons. Nope, I don’t want to give up a potential “transformative” talent, accepting the risk inherent in young talent, for a decent scorer.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I love Martin
but would hesitate to do this because I have strong belief in Rubio. I’d do it in a second if it were Flynn instead.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2009 1:25 PM CST reply actions
I struggle with a willingness to remain patient in the eternal rebuilding process. I also happen to believe there is little chance that Rubio ever plays here so the question becomes what can we get for the asset. I think the addition of Martin and a dynamic wing gives the wolves a chance to climb the ladder
For Rubio? No. For Flynn?
I think l would. Plus I think Sacramento wants Flynn as much or more anyway.
I would rather trade Sessions....
…assuming Rubio is truly part of the long-term picture. Sacramento gets cap relief and Minnesota gets some value without giving up a future piece.
Hmmm…I’d probably make the trade simply because there are real questions as to whether or not Rubio will excel in NBA. K-Mart has been injury prone, but is a proven NBA scorer, gets to the line, will space the floor, has a reasonable contract and is still young (26). I can’t imagine we’d ever get more for Rubio’s rights.
That said, I’d certainly exhaust the options of including Sessions or Flynn instead of Rubio.
Someone should post this
at Sactown Royalty and see what Kings fans think.
Give ’em three options, all including Blount and Pech with
a) Rubio
b) Flynn
c) Sessions
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Just posted it on Sactown Royalty
Will update with poll results when I can.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Quick update
They don’t like it. They see Tyreke as their PG of the future and want to see if Martin can play alongside him before giving up on him.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Yep
Remember that Evans has the same winspan as Blake Griffin and the speed of a point guard. Go look at his stea on Arena’s at the end of the Wiz game. And K-Mart has never been paired with a good defender at the point. Bibby was a terrible defender. But in the first five games of the season, K-Mart was averaging two steals and five+ rebounds per game. People might be suprised as how good he is when teamed with a guard who can play D.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Also shows further proof
That fans greatly over-value their own players, ourselves included. I think it would be hard to be a GM.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
No.
Kevin Martin appears to be made of porcelain.
And never for Rubio.
"I tell one of my media colleagues to watch Hollins, who regards cutters entering his vicinity with the sort of startled amazement newborn infants have when their own appendages enter their vision for the first times."
-Britt Robson
No
What good is a scorer who misses 20-25 games per year and doesn’t have the physical build to indicate that’ll change? Also, I’m in the “Rubio doesn’t have a problem with playing here” camp and think they can either get more for him or he’ll be a better player than Martin.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 22, 2009 3:09 PM CST reply actions
From the Kings point of view
I think Rubio has great upside if he comes over. I don’t undervalue him at all. I also think Flynn is going to be a solid PG. The problem is that the KIngs don’t need PGs. Even if you are not sold on ‘Reke playing the point long term—which most of us are—we’d be giving up our second best player, and one of the most effecient scorers in the league, for a position we have filled. The Kings need a serious post defender, as you showed us, again, recently.
I do think many of you are highly underestimating Martin though. Yes, he has been injured a lot. But it’s not an Oden or McGrady type thing where he has bad knees or ankles. He doesn’t even play a particularly injurious type of ball. He can flat out get points with a small number of posessions. And his rep for playing poor D is based alot on him coming back too early last season and playing on one leg. Next time we meet the wolves ask yourself how you will stop ’Reke driing to the hoop while one of the best pure shooters in the league is waiting to take the outlet pass. Just saying.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Not to undervalue Martin...
but NO way if Rubio is involved. Martin is an excellent and efficient scorer, but he will average about 60 games played per year after this year. The guy is made of glass. Yes if it involves any players other than Rubio, Love, or Al.
You really think that Evans is a long term PG?
I’ve heard this many times before about big guards with ball skills. LeBron was a PG his rookie year. Wade has been tried at the point. Penny Hardaway started at the point until they figured out he was more of a shooter. I can’t think of a big guard who has played the PG full time who was primarily a scorer. There’s also the defensive issues. Tyreke is strong, but he’s not a freak athlete and it detracts from his scoring when he’d be constantly guarding the opposing PG -guys that are going to usually be quicker/faster than him.
The Wolves learned this the hard way with KG. You put your best player at his best position and build around that. It’s nice on paper to have the 7’ SF or the 6’6" PG, but you should try to play to your stars strengths.
I get that you like Martin a lot, but I think you’re delaying the inevitable. If you think you’ve got PG covered with Udrih and Rodriguez that’s fine, I’d try to use Martin to upgrade the frontline then.
It is definitely possible that Evans will end up being a two
But remember that Memphis didn’t start winning until they moved Evans to the point. I agree that you can’t force a guy into a position he doesn’t play. But Evans has a huge advantage when played at the point alongside an outside shooting threat. K-Mart is 6-7. Are you going to put a guy like Flynn on Evans who will run over him or K-Mart who will shoot over him? When you move Evans to the two, the mismatch is lessened. And because he does not have a great jumper, you point guard can’t drive and dish. So far Evans is playing a decent job of being the primary ball handler. His assist numbers (5) aren’t great. But they are definitely adequate when you combine it with the rest of his offense.
Likewise, while a LeBron would have difficulty keeping up with speedy PGs, Evans is just as fast as he is strong. That’s what makes him such a freak of nature. The media wants ou to believe Evans is a true 2, but in Sac the whole NaTPG, thing has become kind of a joke.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Anything is possible, good luck with it all from one fan of rebuilding team to another.
Just remrember…The matchup advantages you suggest were all touted by those who wanted to keep KG as a SF as well. In the end though the mismatches work against you though a bit defensively. I’m sure Evans can stick with many PGs in stretches, but to ask him to do that every minute he’s on the court takes away from from his offensive strengths. I’m sure he could intiate the offense and do everything most score first PGs can do, but it detracts from what he does best offensively -score. Most score first PGs play point because they don’t have the size to play SG. Evans has the size to play scoring guard so why try to make him what he’s not?
Also, it should be noted that Tyreke is not a great run/jump athlete for a SG, let alone PG. To put him in the same class as LeBron is off base. He’s got superb length and is strong, but his combine numbers suggest he’s just not upper echelon in terms of being an explosive athlete. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/
Keeping Tyreke against PGs defensively is going to have him chasing quicker, more explosive, guys almost every night.
Yep
Only time will tell. Personally, I don’t think he is LeBron or Wade. It’s like comparing a rookie NFL receiver to Jerry Rice based on half a season. But I do think he is something special.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Dec 23, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Based on?
You are basing K-Mart’s rep on a couple of non-related injuries. Again, let me repeat, this is not the same injury. He had a very bad ankle sprain last year. This year he fractured his wrist. No way to tie the two together. I’m a huge Rubio supporter, but he hasn’t played in the NBA and there is no guaranteed timetable for him to do so. They are both big risks, but personally I take the guy who has proven that he can play in the NBA at a high or even elite level. Yes, he missed some NBA games this year. But not as many as Rubio! :)
It’s okay, because we are bith saying no to the deal.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Sorry that was supposed to be a response to Wolf
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
Ok...
maybe the injuties are unrelated. Abdominal strain or something one year, ankle another, now wrist, etc. Kobe plays with a broken hand/finger this year, before he played with a torn ligament in his hand. I am NOT a Kobe fan, but the guy plays through injuries. Regardless if the injuries are related or not, Martin has a LONG history of NOT playing for significant amounts of games every year. In only 1 of his 6 years did he NOT miss a significant amount of games. I don’t think Martin is a bad defender, but he is not a lock down guy either. I think Rubio will play for the Wolvws and yes I would rather have Rubio than Martin even if he has not played in the NBA yet (27 games into the Kings season and Martin only has 5 NBA games on Rubio; that’s not saying much…injured again.)
Injuries
Martin’s injuries may not be related, but that doesn’t make him any less injury prone. He may not have a unifying problem that explains his various maladies, but that doesn’t make his injuries less concerning. Some guys are just prone to injury whether is secondary to their body habitus, style of play or their body mechanics. Martin currently appears to be one of these guys.
If he is injured again next year or even the year after
I would tend to say yes. But right now, having watched him play a lot, I would say that it’s one of those just because the penny comes up heads three times in a row, does not mena it will come up heads again, kind of things. At this point I’m just calking it up to bad luck on his part. Personally I hope K-Mart stays healthy for the next couple of years, and Rubio comes to play for you guys. Both will make the game more fun to watch.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
In the last three seasons (this one included)
Martin has missed 75 regular season games.
"I tell one of my media colleagues to watch Hollins, who regards cutters entering his vicinity with the sort of startled amazement newborn infants have when their own appendages enter their vision for the first times."
-Britt Robson
Which is actually deceiving
Because in:
05-06, he played 72 games,
06-07, he played 80 games,
07-08, he played 61 games
07-08 was the first season he got injured. If he was injury prone, wouldn’t it have shown up earlier? Obviously, at 26, it’s not like he is old.
Again, no worries. If you think he is injury-prone, he will be to you. Only time will tell.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Dec 23, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
And he played
51 in 08-09
and only 5 in this season to date.
It’s not deceiving at all. The fact that these injuries crop up as he gets older is just another reason for concern.
I think if you are going to trade Ricky Rubio’s rights for a guy owed a lot of money, you want him on court, not in a suit watching. He may never suffer another injury and play as well as we know he can – but given he recent history would you back that to happen?
"I tell one of my media colleagues to watch Hollins, who regards cutters entering his vicinity with the sort of startled amazement newborn infants have when their own appendages enter their vision for the first times."
-Britt Robson
Yikes
I didn’t realize how highly people at Sactown Royalty valued Kevin Martin. Some interesting points over there though. They’ve even convinced me that the trade Ford proposed is worth doing!
No
Rubio’s value will only go up…we should definitely wait until after the 2010 draft.
No
if only because the Rights to Rubio are the perfect capper if the Wolves get the opportunity to pry a star better than Kevin Martin (no offense—nice player, love to have him) away from a cash-strapped team on the downside. Rubio costs a team nothing until he comes over, and can be sold to the receiving team’s fans as the new star on which the team will be rebuilt.
Mutual problem going on both sides. We over-value value martin and you do the same with Rubio.
Moreover, Rubio hasn’t proven a thing in the NBA.
By this logic...
no trades would ever be made -player for draft pick.
Would you trade Hawes for the #1 pick in the draft to use on a player who hasn’t proven anything in the NBA?
come on, that’s unfair. hawes is awful and martin is good. huge difference.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Sure, but the old “proved nothing in the NBA” line is tired. Martin is good, but he’s got several flaws, namely the brittle body (lately) and contract. It’s fine to say we all overvalue our own players – I agree, but then to dig at Rubio with out acknowledging the major flaws with the comparison is what I was trying to highlight.
by Blond Ricky on Dec 24, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, i knew what you meant, i just saw an opportunity to take a cheap shot at hawes and jumped on it. i’ve heard as high of praise for hawes from kings fans as i have from blazers fans about LMA. i just couldn’t resist the jab.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Laughable
Hawes on the same level of LMA is like saying a high school player could compete with MJ.
i don’t think anyone made the direct comparison, but the talk was mostly about how great hawes is at everything that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet, how his terrible, terrible rebounding isn’t his fault, how stretching the floor makes his inefficient scoring worthwhile and how he could be a good starter on a championship team.
it’s a lot like the defense of LMA, but taken about 12 steps farther because LMA is actually a pretty good player. hawes isn’t even close.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I didn't express my thought clearly enough
Kevin Martin is a known quantity, and if I had to bet my own money, I would bet on him having a more productive NBA career than Ricky Rubio.
However, right now Ricky is a lottery ticket—long odds, but a huge potential payoff. That “what if?” excitement is something that a team on the downswing can use to partially placate fans as their go-to star is shuffled out the door (in this example, to Minnesota). We’ve already been on the other side of that equation, when KG was moved to Boston for a package centered around Al Jefferson.
In some way, Rubio’s rights are even more attractive to a team in this condition, as his skills and marketability are more enticing than a low-post volume scorer—and he isn’t being paid a single cent by an NBA team.
I agree
I definitely think you guys have a grade trade chip. If you think he won’t pan out, you’re better off trading him on the “What if” upside. On the other hand, if you think he is going to be amazing—which I do—you are MUCH better off to bring him to the NBA, let him blow people away and either keep him, or trade him for something incredible. Right now, he is still just the guy who dropped to you at 5 and didn’t come over.
""Balance your right to dissent, with your responsibility to contribute."
Gordan Ryan
by SavageBeast on Dec 23, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
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