Yea shooting!
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 30, 2009 9:24 AM CST
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PrintWhen you make 23 of 25 free throws, equal your opponent's turnovers, and grab essentially the same amount of rebounds as the other guy, and you still lose by nearly 20...well, your shooting is jacked up all to hell.
That's your game wrap. The Wolves had an eFG of 41.8% and the Spurs carried one at 54.7%. How did this happen? First and foremost: personnel, especially in the 2nd unit...more specifically, the 2nd unit's wing/perimeter players: Roger Mason, Manu Ginobili, and George Hill. The Wolves don't exactly have much wing talent in the first place and they really don't have an answer for a team with 3 guys who come off the bench that could would all start for Our Beloved Puppies on the perimeter. Manu ended the game with 10 assists; he was able to get where ever he wanted with the ball. Mason was 4-7 from beyond the arc, getting many of his open looks from a defense that was collapsed by a driving/attacking Ginobili. Manu ended the game a rebound away from a triple-double in 27 minutes.
Today is going to be a short game wrap. I'd really like to go into some issues about situational defense and shot selection but Hoopdata's advanced box score isn't up yet and I don't want to throw some stuff out there without backing it up. Consider this today's open thread. I'll post more after the Utah game. Until then, your assignment is to try and figure out what Jonny Flynn does for this team when he is not scoring.
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Flynn doesn't do anything for the team when he's not scoring...
but he’s 20, needs to develop and the alternative of him getting the majority of the minutes probably doesn’t lead to any extra wins this season.
I do look forward to the day he’s coming off the bench as instant offense behind Rubio.
And sometimes
he makes both of his free throws. Can’t say the same for the other guy.
Un-true
Jonny Flynn is a swell guy and of great character. Like Kahn reminded me 100 times on draft day, I will/have fallen in love with his character. If I was a sports reporter/general manager, I’m a 100% certain that Jonny Flynn would be un-intimidating and also use my name in a sentence while talking to me.
Jonny Flynn
Gives this team a player who likes our winters (reminds him of home).
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 30, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
I was about to make the last comment. his game right now is best suited for off the bench where he can come in and explode if he is hot. if that is the likely longterm plan when prince rubio is here, why not do it now with sessions starting? it drives up sessions trade value and does not give flynn a sense of starter intitlement.
by revprodeji on Dec 30, 2009 12:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Frontcourt vs Backcourt
I didn’t watch all of the game, as the Gopher-Nittany Lions game was a bit more exciting than trying to watch the Wolves climb back from a 20-point 3rd Quarter deficit.
In the 1st Half, though, I thought Jefferson and Love held their own just fine, but (as the game wrap suggests) the backcourt was totally outclassed by the Spurs’ guards. I guess this is a combination of lacking experience and lacking talent. Obviously the Wolves need better athletes and players on the wings. They also need the point guards — especially Flynn — to gain experience and keep improving. Jonny’s having a very good rookie year, all things considered. I wonder what sort of role these Wolves point guards are going to have as the triangle becomes more of the focus. The Phil Jackson teams never had point guards initiating offense, but that was probably in large part due to the hall of famers they had at the 2 position.
jeez, s-n-p...
it’s not like sessions tore it up tonight…sure, flynn gets more minutes with the starters, but i’d expect sessions to do better than he did in 24 minutes of action.
would we have won with sessions starting? probably not. i genuinely don’t understand the flynn hatred…he’s a rookie PG playing in an offensive system that historically doesn’t facilitate play-making PG’s, and he’s putting up relatively solid numbers, especially for a rookie. he will get better for sure…
Not really hatin'
I don’t think SnP is outright hatin’ on Flynn, maybe just a little frustratin’ on him. I guess I’m becoming one of those who is a little underwhelmed with Sessions’ production this year. While it is clear that he is better at getting everyone organized he doesn’t appear (at least to me) to have that high of a ceiling in this system. With Flynn I at least believe that he could average 15-18 ppg scoring and 6-7 assists in the triangle. Combined with improved man to man defense via experience and Flynn looks like a better and better prospect, at least when compared to Sessions.
I don’t know. Maybe I’m off base here, but on a team that’s really lacking guys who can put the ball in the basket it seems really wishful to view Sessions in terms of a great starter if he had Flynn’s scoring ability. It’s like saying Brewer would be a great starter if he had Gay’s scoring ability, or Love would be an All-Star if he was 7’ tall. To me it’s a matter of how you choose to frame the context for comparison: if you are expecting playmaking with complimentary scoring, Sessions has the lead. If you are expecting scoring with complimentary playmaking from your PG in the triangle, Flynn is your guy. Given that the triangle is about generating open looks for guys regardless of whether you have a great point running it or not, perhaps Flynn has the greater upside? Rubio is the exception in terms of PGs, playmaking, and the triangle, as he is just soooo good at creating for others that he kind of is in his own assessment category.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 30, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah...
Flynn seems to mesh with this team better than Sessions. We sorely lack perimeter scorers, and that’s exactly what Flynn is. He doesn’t hog the ball and make it a problem that he’s a scoring point guard. If anything he embraces it and his role on the team. I like the way Sessions initiates so much body contact in the paint — that is a really valuable skill. He also seems to take more chances with his passes and sometimes that helps. Jonny is kind of a refreshing sort of rookie for the Wolves, though, since he’s so-obviously going to be a good pro and he’s already confident enough to take on the league’s best.
From McCants to Foye to Brewer to Love, we’ve had a string of rookies that didn’t really look like sure-things when they entered the league. Love turned it around pretty quickly and Brewer (fingers crossed) is maybe turning the corner. But it’s nice to have a high draft pick that looks deserving of that spot, even if Jennings was taken later and looks a little better in his system.
He's a sub 6 foot point guard..
…who doesn’t facilitate. He has a fantastic personality and he’s a good scorer, but unless he develops a rather significant ability to run an offense, he’s a less-athletic Nate Robertson. Will he improve? Likely, as a scorer at least. I’m just amazed that a point guard could look this un point guardish after 2 years of college. I guess it says a lot about our AAU system and Syracuse. It’s not just the triangle. He’s not doing anything even in their pick and roll sets and very little in transition. This is just another reason why you don’t pick 6 foot scoring point guards. I’m sure at every step of his career Flynn has been the Alpha Dog in terms of scoring. This proficiency to put the ball in the bucket led to double teams and easy assists without really having to run anything. Now he’s here with the Wolves and he’s ostensibly a point guard but he’s really just a short shooting guard who is now in a league where his physical gifts don’t automatically put him at the top of the heap. He certainly has the tools to be a good facilitator (he can keep his dribble well into the lane, he has decent vision, he is a threat to score, etc) but I get the bad feeling that this is the first time he’s been asked to actually run a real offense and I don’t think it’s a given that this untested part of his game will improve like his scoring should.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
In a lot of ways...
Flynn is a stark contrast to last year’s PG’s, Telfair and Ollie. Both were very much “floor generals” in that they would lead the offense, bark out calls, and generally protect the ball pretty well. On the other hand, neither could give you any scoring if their life depended on it, save the one game per season where Bassy would go off for 35 points.
I sort of like the way Flynn fits in with Love and Jefferson, though. He’ll keep working on “picking his spots” or whatever the right cliche’ is for knowning when and when not to attack, and he’ll also continue to improve as a shooter, since he has good mechanics and presumably a great work ethic.
There are two big reasons why I’m not overly concerned with Flynn’s inability to be a playmaking point guard:
1) We have Ricky Rubio in 1.5 seasons.
2) We have Kevin Love and are developing a system around ball movement that requires little to nothing from the point guard as an assist-man. Like other point guards from ball-movement offenses (Derek Fisher, BJ Armstrong, Mike Bibby) he can be effective as a scorer and let his teammates share the ball and responsibilities.
I actually hated the Flynn selection when it happened, but it hasn’t taken long for me to see what Kahn was talking about. Granted, Jennings is doing better, but the 55-point game was a huge aberation, and the gap isn’t quite as big as it seemed between these two when that game happened.
hmmm
…but, as you said, he’s never HAD to be a great facilitator up until this point. everything else he has had to do throughout his hoop-life he has learned, so now that it is time for him to learn this, i predict that he will…especially considering, as you also said, that he has the tools to get it together. also, not to mention…if he was surrounded by more talent, his assist total would be considerably higher.
but i guess i’m just an optimist.
by davechisholm on Dec 30, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
Didn’t someone defend Flynn (re: comparing him to Jennings) by basically suggesting that Jennings’ year in Europe gave him a unique advantage in adjusting to the NBA? Jennings looked like far from a sure thing over there, and now that he’s playing in his second season of pro basketball in a PG friendly system he’s doing quite well.
Flynn maybe 6’ tall, but I guess I find that argument really weak. Being 6’ tall is a liability in physical matchups – not talent. And yes, he will have some trouble with larger guards, but honestly who isn’t? Flynn is strong as an ox, and everyone lauds CP3 for being so strong and he’s not that big (6’ 1"). Who’s to say that Flynn doesn’t present a physical mismatch for larger guards because he’s so much faster than they are and has the hops and strength to finish at the rim?
Flynn is a baller and has shown the aptitude to never give up and to keep figuring it out. Watch him attack Deron Williams, or CP3, or any other point guard who’s lit him up. Reminds me of all the people saying the KLove will never score much because he’s too short and will always get blocked. Love’s a baller too. These guys are just relentless in their desire to figure out how to win and exploit weaknesses.
And finally, to compare Flynn to Nate Robertson (who pitches for the Tigers, actually. I’m assuming you meant Nate Robinson) is very disrespectful. That dude (Nate) is a walking distraction and headache. Flynn, so far, has been an upstanding citizen and teammate. Skills aside, comparing Flynn to a player who’s getting kicked off his team because of his attitude comes across as a cheap shot whether it was intended or not.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Nice catch..
…with Robertson v. Robinson. I think I’ve been fairly clear over the time of this site that I don’t take into consideration attitude. We have no way of knowing what these guys are like and I stick to game only. Although…I have played Call of Duty with Robinson on xBox Live ;)
My counter argument is that you are comparing Flynn to the 2 best point guards in the game right now. Is Flynn closer to CP3 and D-Will or Robinson? I think that’s pretty obvious right now. He’s a short guard who doesn’t do much besides score right now and there isn’t a very long list of guys who have made it in the league (let alone be above average) at being one-dimensional 5 footers.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ya
The list of successful 6’ PGs probably isn’t as long as the list of successful 6’ 3" PGs, at least over the last 10-15 years. And right now Flynn is definitely closer to Robinson than CP3 or Deron. I guess what I’m mostly arguing against is the unexpected frustration and discontent about having Flynn that comes across when I read your posts/comments on him today. I love reading your stuff because you always try and keep everything in perspective, but today it’s like Jonny kicked your dog or something. Now maybe I’m interpreting things that aren’t there, and if so I’m sorry. It just caught me by surprise is all. And maybe I would understand a lot of this a whole lot more if I’d been able to see the SAS game, but I didn’t, so I go off of what I can, and right now that stats and other comments.
To me Flynn is putting up probably the third best rookie season the Wolves have had (behind KG and Love). I believe that he can learn to be a floor general. Maybe he won’t ever be in Jennings’ league in terms of passing/assists, but I don’t think he’ll be a slouch either. I think for a team that seems deadset on Rubio, having a scoring point makes sense, more than having a traditional point like Sessions. And I think that if Flynn was going to bomb or not be productive in the league we would have already seen it by now. Teams would have figured him out. Instead he’s showing glimpses of showing up. That’s what good players do. I concede that he won’t be a top 5 point in the NBA, but he might get to the 8-12 range, depending on what you value. For our system I think that’s great. At worst he’ll be a 10-15 year NBA player, averaging 15-20 minutes a night. At best he’ll be a poor man’s CP3. I don’t know. Given everything else this team needs I guess I’m happy that Flynn isn’t William Avery.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Flynn was a fantastic playmaker at Syracuse
It’s not like he’s learning point guard for the first time. He’s merely learning the triangle for the first time.
However
1) Flynn’s fantastic playmaking at Syracuse was the result of double teams that created relatively easy playmaking opportunities. (s-n-p’s worry)
2) If you are correct, and it’s the triangle, it’s actually BAD news. Because Flynn plays like he hasn’t really played the role of a distributing PG very much. The hope is that he’s struggling because he’s being asked to do something new. The team is not always in the triangle and as s-n-p argues, Flynn hasn’t exactly set the world on fire with his passing abilities in the pick-n-roll.
Watching him play, however, I have been sometimes impressed with his passing in the open court. Although sometimes he goes all alpha dog and tries to finish the play himself rather than make an easy pass.
Easy playmaking
Hmmm… Lawson plays in ’Melo, behind Billups, and with a great array of talents… Curry plays alongside a number of great scorers (perimeter and inside) in a historically productive offensive system… Jennings plays with a deadly outside shooter and dominant big man in a PG friendly system as a second year pro…
I guess I just don’t get it. Weeks ago people were saying that if Flynn were in Milwaukee or Denver he’d be putting up great numbers and those other guys would be struggling here. Now he’s bad because he’s short and can score but can’t make enough passes for assists or play creation (on a team that, as a whole, struggles to finish dishes and not telegraph passes).
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Right--
this guy is way too young working in a new offense on an untalented team at a position that requires more maturity than all of the others combined. It’s a bit too soon to judge him negatively or positively, just like Brandon Jennings hasn’t exactly been averaging 55 a night since that one big game.
I'll just reiterate..
…my basic point: Flynn needs to do more than score. That’s my basic point and it’s one that even made its way into the TV broadcast last night (J-Pete made it). He’s going to have to learn how to pass the ball better, defend, and maybe rebound a bit. If he doesn’t, then he’s a sub 6 foot scoring guard. He can score the ball and I think that causes people to gloss over the elephant in the room: that he’s not a very good point guard.
I’ll repeat what I said during the Jennings craziness: I’m not going to give up on a rookie point guard. PGs need 2-3 years to get used to the league (which, btw, is a nice thought concerning Ricky Rubio…i.e. there’s a 4-6 year wait between now and when he supposedly should “get it” in the NBA) and Flynn certainly has the tools to succeed. What I’m saying is that he doesn’t do anything other than score right now and he’s shown very little in the way of being able to run any sort of offense other than the fast break. That’s a big problem. Guys like Lawson and Jennings have clear stretches with brilliant facilitation play. It’s obvious that they know how to run an offense. Flynn has clear stretches with brilliant scoring. It’s obvious that he knows how to put the ball in the bucket. If he were a 6’6" guard with strength and athleticism, I’d be going ga-ga over the guy, but he’s a 5’10" point guard. You simply can’t be one dimensional or not show flashes of being able to run an offense if that’s who you are.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
you say you're not going to give up on a rookie PG...
…and then you proceed to basically say that you’ve given up on him or that your patience is at an end (in more words).
don’t get me wrong, he DOES need to facilitate more, but i’m confident that he will learn—give him another 1.5 years and i think he’ll be legit.
by davechisholm on Dec 30, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
Dude
I didn’t get that SNP was saying that at all. He’s not giving up on Jonny Flynn. He’s just stating what Jonny needs to do to become a very good NBA player and he’s not there yet…. plus we are all jaded from the Foye development, or lack there of… However, I believe most of us hope your optimism is justified and Flynn becomes an allstar…
I hope so too..
…they pumped a ton of resources into a single position and they need to have one of them pan out on a well above average level. Also, just to clarify: I’m not saying give up; I’m just saying that they seem to have a 5 footer one dimensional guard on their hands who needs a lot of work in the facilitation department (and defense and rebounding).
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Flynn needs to end up on a team in 2011
that has that generations Rodman and Artest. Two great defenders who don’t need the ball, then Flynn can put up 25 pts a game and look effective.
Here's what he is doing when he doesn't score
JUST enough to be usable in a two for one or three for one trade in a year and a half after Rubio is signed!! Not kidding!
It could be argued that Flynn could fit better in the triangle in the sense that the burden on him to make plays for others is reduced due to it being spread out more. He’s got to get used to not having the ball so much, but it could be better for him than a dribble-drive system that ultimately exposes his weaknesses in making plays for others.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 30, 2009 11:47 AM CST reply actions
Ya
You beat me to it, but yes. Sessions would excel in a system that needs a guy to create more for others. I think that’s partly what generates the FTAs for him too – other teams have to respect his play creating ability and he can capitalize on that by driving to the hole.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 30, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
And when all is said and done
isn’t Flynn missing a shot as good as an assist when you have Kevin Love?
Here's the reason for the Flynn hatred
We had our pick of point guards in the draft. We could have had Jennings. We had Lawson and traded him. We could have had Curry, although I see him as more of a short 2 guard. Been there, done that.
put either jennings or lawson in the triangle...
…and they fare worse than flynn. juuust saying.
by davechisholm on Dec 30, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
Jennings = overrated, at least in terms of what he would do in our system.
Lawson = see above
Curry = some truth. I think Curry might be what SnP wishes Sessions was for us. I think you trade off a fair bit of athleticism and attitude with him, though (in comparison to Flynn that is).
I guess I’ll put it this way: with the guys left on the board, no one has put together a convincing argument (in my opinion) that any of the other guys (save perhaps Curry) would have been better in our system than Flynn. Right now it’s looking like Jennings’ 55 was an outlier. Over the last 5 games (or approx. 16% of their pro careers):
Jennings 14.4 pts, 6.4 asts, .8 stls, 2.8 TOs in 32.4 min/g
Flynn 16.8 pts, 3.4 asts, 1.2 stls, 2.6 TOs in 29.8 min/g
Lawson 9.3 pts, 3.6 asts, .8 stls, 1.2 TOs in 26 min/g
Curry 11.8 pts, 4.4 asts, 1.2 stls, 2.4 TOs in 29.8 min/g
Which of those guys is head and shoulders above anyone else? Who is playing in the most PG friendly system, or the least PG friendly system? Flynn is doing just fine.
And this post isn’t meant to be directed at you, Dave T, but more to just get some perspective out there as to how all these guys are doing.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 30, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
Couple points to add
1. Didn’t Curry not want to come to MN? Or is that just in my head?
2. At the end of the day, Flynn looks like he belongs on the court. And none of the others are better leaders than Jonny or have significantly better stats. So isn’t all the “I wish we had” comments a little uncalled for? It’s not like we selected Jordan Hill. We got a baller with our pick. Does the fact that some other teams behind us also got a baller really make anyone upset?
Fact is, they are all still pretty close and all will be for awhile. But out of all of those guys characters for team chemistry purposes, which one would you rather have? (not saying any of them are bad guys). I would take Flynn. In hindsight though an Evans/Flynn backcourt would look pretty good wouldn’t it? To bad Sacramento didn’t nab Rubio and let Evans drop to us.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
The truth
In hindsight though an Evans/Flynn backcourt would look pretty good wouldn’t it? To bad Sacramento didn’t nab Rubio and let Evans drop to us.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Dec 30, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
At least we know that Kahn isn't an idiot
since that was his plan and they both will be good pros. I am pumped for the trade deadline/offseason/draft. Instead of the historical dread.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Actually
the plan in place was Evans/Curry who everyone though would form a terrific combination. When Evans was gone, Flynn trumped Curry because it was felt (correctly from my perspective) that Flynn was a far better “pure” point.
JAF
This is the reason you need to post more. You take a lot of the speculation out as your information is hands down better than mine (which is mostly due to speculation and logic).
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
he has a friend
in the FO. Not that I assume he is getting inside info or anything, but my take is that JAF likes talking about the wolves (like all of us do) and his buddy can at least slam the door on the more off base assumptions therefore leading to a more accurate opinion of what the wolves organization is thinking or planning.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
You are correct
we never discuss specifics before hand, but I am usually able to pick up hindsight after the fact. While being very free with comments to the press, Kahn is far more tight lipped internally. So not as much info this year vs last year.
One of the things you need to realize is that not only are the FO people by and large basketball junkies, so are their families. Several of these guys have coached in the youth AAU leagues which is where I got to know my friend. We love talking basketball, but I am careful not to ask (nor he to volunteer) anything sensitive.
I feel like Robert Reford should be playing you in the movie
while Fred Hoiberg hides in the shadows of the ABC parking ramps.
It's just nice to be able to discuss
basketball possibilities without having to waste time on discussions that shouldn’t even happen because anyone with better knowledge would know it to be impossible.
Saves alot of time for more productive possibilities.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Have you received any hints on
whether Kahn is going to spend his cap space & picks this summer vs. at the deadline vs. waiting until 2011?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 30, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
If I remember
the believe was that the most likely scenario is to acquire a player at the deadline or through a sign and trade in the offseason. Kahn thought he could lure a bigger FA to MN, but found out that a lot of players weren’t interested.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
The free agent signs this summer
don’t look good. I don’t want to be redundant but the staff is spend mucho time on updating current NBA player profiles. My guess is that Kahn wants to be prepared to “hopefully” take advantage of someone needing to dump salary and/or be a facilitator for a playoff bound team trying to get one last piece.
Don't have any friends in the front office... but..
I do remember Flynn was said to be the most highly thought of PG after the PG tryouts. I thought the plan was Evans [for SG] and Flynn.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Dec 30, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
I was actually going to post before I saw JAF's
but Flynn and Evans would have been a rough lineup. Both of them are ball dominant and neither of them are great shooters (floor spacers). I would have loved a Curry/Evans lineup with Curry playing SG and defending PGs while Evans plays PG and defends SGs (and Curry is no slouch as a PG either). Woulda been nice.
You don't
because I will not reveal who my FO friend is. However, I do have a pretty good track record ; ) If you look at some posts from me this summer, and look at the video they played of the draft war room early this season, you might see some similarities.
Going a little further, Curry was really trying to get to NY which was part of his reasoning to skip our workout. Kahn was going to call that bluff – and rightly so.
Flynn had a fantastic work out and was certainly a top consideration. But Evans was ranked higher (as he should be if for no other reason than brute athleticism). Curry brought some skill sets that complimented Evans far better than Flynn’s skill sets.
I saw the video
there were about eight people in the room. I remember three – Taylor, Kahn, and Hoiberg. Do you resemble any of them?? If not, could you name the others in the room?
Treat this as a rhetorical question if you must.
PS
I am just old enough to remember Watergate in real time. What I remember is that as a young urchin I hated the fact the TV shows I wanted to watch were often interrupted by news reports and Nixon press conferences. I think someone may have even interrupted AWA rasslin one time.
Deep Throat was the only one who didn’t interrupt my TV viewing, so I will respect your quest for anonymity.
If I recall correctly
Weren’t there rumors that were were trying to move up from our sixth pick too? If so, say Kahn wanted to get Rubio at number two, who would have come with the 5th pick?
Just to be clear
The issue with a Evans/Flynn backcourt would be shooting. This wouldn’t be a good fit with Al occupying the lane. This teams need a least one shooter not two slashers.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 30, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
not necessarily
with Al and either Flynn or Evans on the pinch post side of the formation and the other slashing to the basket from the off ball side the lane will always be wide open. It’s not like Rambis would just let Al sit in the box and clog the lane. With two backcourt guys who could light it up, Al would more than willingly adapt his game.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
The problem
is both their games is predicated on getting to the basket which combined with Al’s game makes this team easier to defend. I like JAF’s thoughts on the Evans/Curry combo which would have made a ton of sense.
My ideal pairing would be Rubio/Curry. I think Curry moves very well off-the ball. I tend to think Curry could have been solid at the 1 until Rubio arrived.
Tyreke Evans wouldn’t have been as effective in Minny as in Sac-Town for this reason.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 30, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions
The problem with a Curry/Rubio backcourt
would be the opposite of the Evans/Flynn backcourt. Neither one is really good at driving to the lane.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
Huh??
Rubio has an excellent Free-Throw Rate. It’s hard to imagine he gets this by all his jump shots.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 30, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
driving in the EL
is a lot different than driving in the NBA IMO. You can’t look at that specific of a stat and expect it to translate.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
Even if he's a rook
Its still frustrating to see him making same/similar mistakes at this point in the season that he was making at the beginning of the season.
I haven’t watched every game to this point but I feel like his shot selection in the half-court offense is more desperation then selection. It seems that he doesn’t have a great grasp of the 24 second shot clock and at times he gets forced into jacking up a shot quickly or at times doesn’t realize that he still has time to work for a better shot and just fires one up.
Also think that some elements of the team are just starting to get into the triangle offense so come February and March we’ll hopefully see him blossom into more of a facilitator.
organic through and through
I remember seeing that on Deadspin a few days ago.
I closed it after about thirty seconds. I think I made it ten seconds this time.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Dec 30, 2009 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
I hate Grease.
Grease 2 had Michelle Pfeiffer, Adrian Zmed, and Maxwell Caulfield. Much better movie.
I can't blame him
I would have made that video with her if she had asked me…
Best point guard draft
It was said a billion times before the draft that at least a 10 to 12 PGs would be taken in the first round. I don’t think it is a surprise that several are having decent rookie years. Other than Evans who is just a beast, I don’t think we will have a better idea on the shakeout of the rest until March. Flynn is currently playing better, or at least as well as, any of the others. NBA and ESPN both have him top 5 on their rookie boards.
Flynn is 20 and played in a zone defense for two years. I think two months and 30 games is a bit premature to say he won’t bring more to the table then scoring as the season progresses. Before Love came back and Corey Brewer started shooting better, the team desperately needed scoring and Jonny took it upon himself to do that and with decent efficiency. It also can’t be overlooked how much the lineup changed game by game while Love was out. Now with a better set rotation, I hope Jonny settles into more of a facilitator role.
I really like Sessions. Having two solid young PGs is a good thing and both are getting minutes although Sessions definitely deserves more burn. Someone mentioned in a previous post, which I agree with, it simply makes more sense to run Jonny with the first unit and Sessions with the second. Does anyone really want to see a unit of Jonny, Wayne, Sasha, Hollins, and Jawai? I sure don’t. Even if you go with Kevin or Al instead of Hollins or Jawai, that isn’t going to end well.
I certainly understand the argument a lot are making that Sessions is only 23? and why is Jonny getting the development instead. Maybe there is something to the whole Jonny got taken after Rubio, then Rubio stayed in Spain, so now Jonny needs to start or the critics will go even more nuts over Kahn’s draft. Or maybe Rambis and Kahn just think he has more upside and want to develop him at the expense of Sessions now.
In closing, I just want to say how much I like this team. To me, rooting for miscreants and headcases sucks. Every single person on the team just seems like a decent guy. I always listen to the post game interviews and they are always well spoken and nice which is amazing in the NBA now and especially on a team that has struggled so much to start the year. I am also excited about Tucker. The videos I have watched that he did with the Suns are just fantastic.
Could have, Would Have, Should have
1. Forgive my negativity, but not big on the damn Sacramento for taking Evans/curse you OKC for taking Harden viewpoint. There’s a reason they didn’t take Rubio (generally thought of as the 2nd best prospect in the draft) – they didn’t want to wait 2 to 3 years for an unproven Euro. Seems like fairly logical thinking. I know that’s a different argument than what’s being discussed but that subject is starting to sound like children playing monopoly and someone says in the first two minutes: “I wish this money was real”
We have who we have in Flynn, playing as good as any rookie (outside of Evans) in his class, and doing it in a tremendously difficult offense with a rookie coach & teammates that have averaged 27 wins the last 4 years. In other words, not exactly a winning culture (damn, our team leaders lost consistently even when they were with other teams)
personally, I wanted Curry, but he’s not blowing anyone away in an offense that’s perfectly suited to his strengths. This organization has tons of issues, but Johnny Flynn is not one of them
by Son of Gerald Green on Dec 30, 2009 3:27 PM CST reply actions
my point about the evans and harden
wasn’t that I am trying to revise history or anything. We drafted two good players. Who, with competent FO moves, will either be productive and fun to watch or net us someone that is. Period. I would have also been happy with the Curry/Evans combo or Jonny/Harden as well. At least then it would have spared us the how many PGs are the wolves going to pick crap as you would have had a functional combo from the start.
Not that that particular commentary has any bearing on the future…just a personal preference. This may also work in our favor from the standpoint that our other needs are at SG/SF and C, which happens to be a position of strength in this years draft.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Who said it?
Who pointed out that we may be loaded for next year’s draft by virtue of the fact that we have Rubio, Flynn, and Sessions. After Wall there’s basically nothing in terms of PGs. We might not move Sessions/Flynn this year because they’ll command even more come draft time next year. Of course we’d have to find some veteran backups, but I guarantee you both of our current points are very attractive to teams looking for PG help – young, reasonable priced, proven production, upside.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
What teams are looking for PG help?
I’ve been repeating this a lot, but there aren’t many teams hurting at point guard, right now. There’s obviously a top tier of Paul, Williams, Parker, Rose, Rondo… but after that almost every team has 1 or 2 point guards that have roughly equal trade value. The teams that lack a dynamic point guard are mostly the ones with superstars at the other positions (LAL, Dallas, Miami) that wouldn’t really benefit from upgrading at PG. I’m not optimistic that Flynn or Sessions would bring us anything significant back in a trade — even if both are nice players.
NY, IND, CLE, CHA, WAS, SA
and maybe MEM.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
next offseason
NY is going to really need a PG. They will once again have a 1st round pick, but probably not much else.
If Lebron leaves CLE, then they will probably not want Mo Williams as their point and will have to rebuild anyways. Could easily get a decent pick and a solid player, etc.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
Could definitely see a situation
where Flynn, Rubio or Sessions go the Knicks, while Lee goes to a third team and the Wolves acquire the defensive center or shooter they need.
LAL (Fisher is looking toast), maybe POR if neither Miller nor Bayless pan out, PHO (Nash successor), SAC, MEM (if Conley doesn’t develop and Mayo stays a SG), …
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 30, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Reply to all comments...
I guess I just disagree that we’ll get much value for Flynn or Sessions.
Xand1’s Scenario:
Let’s say the Pacers have the 5th Pick, and they trade it to us for the 15th and Flynn. Maybe we just took Wesley Johnson at 5 instead of Devin Ebanks at 15, but we also gave up last year’s 6th Pick who had a good rookie year, by most accounts. I’m not saying I wouldn’t do the trade, but a) Johnson might be a bust, like many guys drafted in the lottery inevitably become; and b) we took Flynn at roughly the same spot in the prior draft. So, I don’t really consider that to be getting value in return for Flynn.
TheEvilProfessor’s Scenario:
If LBJ leaves the Cavs, I’m not sure what they’ll have to trade us, or what they’d be willing to give up for Flynn or Sessions. Delonte West isn’t bad, but his psych problems are a red flag at this point. I’m not seeing much on that roster that excites me as a potential piece for the Wolves’ puzzle. The Knicks fall into the same category. Maybe Gallinari would help — but would they trade him to us for Flynn? Seems like he fits into 7SOL pretty well. And rookie Toney Douglas has also played well at point when given minutes.
Wile E Coyote’s Scenarios:
The Lakers have great assets, but none are coming our way for Flynn. The only one that we would really want, given what we’re trying to do, is Bynum, and they aren’t giving up Bynum for a point guard that they don’t really need. Portland doesn’t need a dribble-happy point guard — and Bayless is breaking out of late. I don’t think the Blazers would see Flynn over Bayless as any significant upgrade, if an upgrade at all. Phoenix could use a guy like Flynn, but what would they give for him? When Nash leaves, they’ll be in all-out rebuilding mode and will have a couple drafts in a row to fill his spot with a high lottery pick. Memphis has enough star-spots filled to be perfectly fine with a solid point guard like Conley.
I think the most realistic scenario is Xand1’s, where we move up in the draft a few spots, hopefully only giving up Sessions. That seems like a situation that could actually help both teams.
The Wolves have YOUNG PGs
Maybe not now, but in the next couple years a few old timers will be gone and the Wolves will be called first.
I am amazed at how few people apply
financial/business logic to sports franchises. The phrase buy low, sell high applies here. We got a whole bunch of PGs when there were lots to be had. Got them all on reasonable deals. Arguably, the wolves are the most stocked at the PG position and in a position to make a move if one presents itself.
So next draft, we can draft the BPA without having to worry about what position they really play as our top pick will be able to grab at least one of the top SG/SF types which is where we really need help. After that is just gravy.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 30, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
The Wolves do not have to trade a PG until at least next summer (only if they get the 1st pick, which is scenario I will live with even if Flynn had to get traded for less than value to give Wall playing time). They have 2 relatively inexpensive PGs on the roster, and a free prospect in Europe. Take advantage now and trade in a couple years when the demand is higher.
Boozer thinks Jonny is a stud.
Rookie point guard Jonny Flynn has been outplayed by Williams in the two games, but only by a fraction.
Flynn had 16 points in the first win against the Jazz. He followed up with 28 points in the Timberwolves’ two-point victory in Utah, including the game-winner in the final seconds.
“He’s a stud, man,” said Carlos Boozer. "I didn’t know how good he was until we played them. And he played great both games. …
“He wasn’t afraid of D-Will. You know, we have an all-world point guard and he wasn’t afraid of him at all.”
This article is by Steve Luhm
The Salt Lake Tribune
The wolves need practice time for Flynn to learn to pass to big men while driving
Most of Flynn’s assists come in transition – where he is very good when he remembers to pass to the open man ahead of him and hitting guys on the perimeter.
I have seen few successful passes to big men while driving. Once he gets up a head of steam Flynn likes attacking the big man and shooting. On the few occasions when Flynn has tried to pass to big men, it has become a turnover much more often than an assist.
I think part of this is attitude and part of it is practice. Flynn is good a finishing at the rim, often scoring or getting fouled. So his attitude is to focus on what he is good at, finishing at the rim. Because he hasn’t done a lot of interior passing earlier in his career, he also isn’t good at it. But he could be good at it, if he practiced and it was clearly part of his mandate from his coach. Flynn has excellent body control and with practice could learn to become an interior passer. But the first hurdle is WANTING to become an interior passer – attitude adjustment.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Dec 30, 2009 5:40 PM CST reply actions
Interior passes.
You have to remember while Love was out Jonny had Jefferson, Pecherov, Jawai, and Hollins to pass to as bigs when he drove into the lane. How many times has Hollins been stripped and Jawai and Pech fumbled passes? I am guessing that number is around 30 to 50. Half the time they weren’t even looking for a pass.
Also, every team in the league knows this team has no three point shooters. How is Jonny supposed to distribute in the paint when all 5 defenders are there.
when flynn drives the middle, the "big man" inside generally goes to help.
A wolves big man is generally left open. Flynn just doesn’t know how to set up the angle to get that man the ball successfully.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Dec 30, 2009 6:28 PM CST reply actions
When there are five defenders in the paint...
because no one can make an outside shot, there are no “angles” to get anyone the ball except back out to bricklayers.
if he even tries to find the wolves big man... generally he doesn't even try
He trusts his own offense more than the pass
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Dec 30, 2009 6:31 PM CST reply actions
I was wondering how long it would take...
for the “doesn’t even try to find to find the big man” card to be played. I agree he trusts his own offense more than the pass right now. Again, look at the list of big men he had to pass to initially. It didn’t matter how open Jawai, Hollins, or Pech were. They constantly got stripped or fumbled the passes.
I agree
This team has flaws, and while Jonny’s passing ability may be a minor one, the fact that this team can’t make a defense reliably pay for crowding the middle is a huge one. For the amount of text we have all spilled debating Flynn (both pro and con), the larger issue once again is the roster imbalance. I think we should all agree to have this discussion again after another 20-30 games because it’ll be interesting to see where this team has gone by then. Maybe better, maybe worse…maybe even some new players?
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Agree
The wolves neeeeeeeed some more reliable 3 pt shooters (but aren’t just 3pt shooters) to space the floor. From the wing prospects, Wall, Henry and Wes are hands down the best top flight shooters from anywhere on the floor.
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 31, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
It's like judging supermodels
once you are that high up on the totem pole, even one eyelash that is longer than the others gets torn apart.
In this crappy analogy, on our team Flynn is a supermodel and our wings are your local amateurs participating in the Miss place your city here competition. We all know they aren’t as good, but just feel bad pointing out how they just aren’t skinny enough to make it past the county competition. It goes unsaid. Wow… another thing I just typed up that I will now point and laugh at myself for.
hahahaha
how about we get pics of all the wolves and find some model pics to compare them too to give them new nicknames?
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 31, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
We could have fun with Oleksiy!
I’m giving you this fanpost assignment ;-)
Do supermodels get stats? Times tripped. Botched smiles. Poor makeup. Obvious fakebakes. And of course nip slips.
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