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Around SBN: Identifying The 19th-Best Team In Baseball

Current Dogs and Future Horses (Draft Board pt i, the Guards)

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OK, I'm not going to write about the Wolves/OKC game today.  I turned the game off midway through the 2nd quarter and I'm not going to waste time on a game when the team did not show up at the opening tap.  Garbage.  Absolute garbage.  That was the first time I can remember turning off a Wolves game.  It was painful to watch and I wanted absolutely nothing to do with it.  I suppose I could write a post about how the team is on dangerous ground when the die-hards don't want to watch, but....well, it's just one game with a terrible team and my final test for fandom comes in the offseason and before the 09/10 trade deadline.  If they flub that, I'm all aboard with the Okie inlaws and the Thunder.  

In lieu of a game wrap I thought it would be a good time to start running the end-of-the-college-year draft board.  Just like the mid-season board, we'll run this in 3 parts: guards, bigs, and wings.  Let's start with the guards.  Here's what we had the last time around:

  1. Ty Lawson (19.942)
  2. James Harden (19.4)
  3. Stephen Curry (19.123)
  4. Jeff Teague (18.126)
  5. Nick Calathes (17.877)
  6. Lee Cummard (16.88)
  7. Eric Maynor (16.081)
  8. Darren Collison (14.785)
  9. Gerald Henderson (14.27)
  10. Tyreke Evans (13.355)
  11. Jonny Flynn (13.209)
  12. Willie Warren (11.9)
  13. Jrue Holiday (11.180)
  14. A.J. Price (10.21)

OK, we've made a few changes since the last time around.  First of all, we completely overhauled the Hoopus Score.  One of my good friends who is trained in the dark arts of econ-based math agreed to help me fiddle with the formula and we thought that it would be best to run a dual score that reflects overall efficiency and net numbers.  This is still a work in progress and we aren't going to post the formula (to be honest, we're kind of interested in its gambling applications) but it goes something like this:

Blake Griffin: 45/18.196 (63.196)

The first number (45) is an efficiency average.  It uses Four Factor associated rates such as eFG, rebr, tor, and FTr.  The second number (18.196) is best described as a weighted help factor.  It takes raw production numbers and tries to give a rough estimate of net positive events a player makes in a given game.  The final number (63.196) is both numbers added together. 

There are a few problems and limitations with this approach:

  1. This formula does not account for year-to-year quality adjustments.  It is firmly stuck in the moment and we have neither the time nor patience to create a database that would give us enough information to say exactly how Griffin's score would match up against, say, Michael Beasley.  
  2. This formula does not show trends during the year.  Since we've been monkeying with what we had at mid-season I really can't give you an idea of who has improved or regressed since December.  This is important because guys like Derrick Rose, Brook Lopez, and Russell Westbrook used big 2nd halfs to really increase their draft stock. 
  3. This formula also does not weigh conference difference.  While we weigh year-to-year average game scores and OE/DE, we don't have any way to break down conference-to-conference scores. This is potentially a big difference maker.  Russell Westbrook may be Exhibit A for this phenomenon. Or, maybe Ben Howland's system isn't good for guards. Whatever it is, this is where we'll have to ask our readers to exercise a bit of scouting on their own.  Which coaches and conferences make a difference?
  4. This formula is best used to grade players within 3 specific player groups: guards, bigs, and wings.  Since we are using efficiency rates for a large part of the equation, you have to take into account the fact that bigs pull down a lot more rebounds than do guards and that guards will likely have far more steals than bigs (and so on and so forth).  If we keep this thing up for a few years we can begin to formulate some sort of unified score but for now, we'll have to use this thing in 3 groups.  
  5. This formula is meant to give our readers a way with which to measure the relative worth of draft picks within a specific year.  It is not meant to be a 1-30 list of the best players.  Nor is it (yet) meant to be a device to compare 2009 players to 2008 ones. 

Keeping in mind how things change from year to year and that we don't really have a full grasp on how things play out from position type to position type, here's a few scores from last year's draft:

  1. Kevin Love: 41.525/15.589 (57.114)
  2. Michael Beasley: 37.875/13.742 (51.617)
  3. Brook Lopez: 34.85/11.092 (45.942)
  4. Derrick Rose: 32.725/7.875 (40.625) 
  5. O.J. Mayo: 28.375/8.538 (35.632)
  6. Russell Westbrook: 29.2/5.730 (34.93)
  7. Mario Chalmers: 26.375/8.538 (34.913)

OK, let's get with the program and run through this year's crop of guards:

  1. Stephen Curry: 42.6/13.203 (55.803)
  2. James Harden: 38.4/10.393 (48.793)
  3. Ty Lawson: 35.275/10.616 (45.668)
  4. Nick Calathes: 33.3/10.575 (43.875)
  5. Jeff Teague: 35.525/7.813 (43.358)
  6. Eric Maynor: 32.875/9.558 (42.433)
  7. Lee Cummard: 30.6/11.359 (41.959)
  8. Marcus Thornton: 31.875/9.685 (41.156)
  9. Toney Douglas: 31.25/8.842 (40.092)
  10. Tyreke Evans: 31.4/8.414 (39.814)
  11. Jonny Flynn: 31.825/7.285 (39.11)
  12. Gerald Henderson: 30.5/7.808 (38.308)
  13. Darren Collison: 29.8/7.757 (37.557)
  14. Willie Warren: 30.55/5.625 (36.175)
  15. Wayne Ellington: 27.3/8.828 (36.128)
  16. Jrue Holiday: 25.5/5.393 (30.893)

Now let's take a quick look at the top 5 in each category.  First the efficiency side:

  1. Stephen Curry (42.6)
  2. James Harden (38.4)
  3. Jeff Teague (35.525)
  4. Ty Lawson (35.275)
  5. Nick Calathes (33.3)

Here is the net side of things:

  1. Stephen Curry (13.203)
  2. Lee Cummard (11.359)
  3. Ty Lawson (10.616)
  4. Nick Calathes (10.575)
  5. James Harden (10.393)

Before I continue, let me add one more name that I'm really not sure what to do with:

Ben Woodside: 35.45/10.590 (46.04)

Keeping in mind what conference Mr. Woodside plays in (we don't account for that in the formula), his Hoopus Score places him as the 3rd most effective guard in the country, just behind James Harden and in front of Ty Lawson.  Irregardless of what he did in the tourney, Woodside deserves a peak at the next level and here's hoping he has a good Portsmouth tourney. 

Of all the players we have here, I do have some mid-season data available for 3 players: Evans, Henderson, and Warren.  While I can't put together a complete formula, I can say that Evans and Henderson showed fairly significant improvement throughout the year while Warren remained pretty much on the same level. 

Looking at the two scores, the most generic way you can think of them is that the first score measures quality and the second measures quantity.  This is something we really wanted to add to the score because it allows you to get a better handle on players who put up big numbers in out-of-the-way places and/or goofy systems but don't have as efficient of a game as someone who plays in a more traditional and/or mainstream system.  Take a look at Lee Cummard.  He has very good net numbers (the 2nd score) but he's 11th in the efficiency score.  It works the other way too; giving us an idea of how 2nd fiddles and/or younger players operate in systems that do not allow them to post high net numbers.   Another option would be that these types of players simply have a lot of room for improvement. Of course, it could also be that players with decent efficiency scores and low net scores simply play on good teams and they are underperforming.  That's the biggest question with guys like Willie Warren, Tyreke Evans, and Jeff Teague.  In the case of Evans, I'm fairly certain it means he has potential.  In the case of Warren, I think he suffers from second-fiddleitis.  As for Teague, he probably should have better net numbers. Then again, he plays with two other solid performers and there might not be enough pie to go around for him to boost his numbers to an elite level.

Getting around to ranking these guards in terms of Our Beloved Puppies Zombies, let me be very, very, very clear: Curry, Curry, Curry, and more Curry. He is far and away the best guard in this draft (if he comes out).  Far. And. Away.  Keeping in mind that this system measures relative worth, there is a bigger difference between Curry and the #2 spot than their is between #2 and #7.  Curry had a fantastic year.  He played on the ball and did so with great success.  He was the absolute focus of opposing defenses (even drawing a box and 2 defense for 1 game; don't forget that he had an entire game's worth of stats almost completely wiped out because of this gimmick) and he still performed far above and beyond any other back court player in the country.  At the next level he won't get that type of attention and he should have more room to get off his perimeter shot.  If the Wolves are unable to draft Griffin (this is a 1 man draft, after all; he's that far ahead) or, if the reports about his talent are correct, Ricky Rubio, then Curry is the best guard available. Period.

Following Curry, deciding who is the next best guard really depends on what you are going to use the player for.  Ty Lawson has the potential to make some team very, very, very happy.  The Trailblazers or Knicks would be a good fit for the UNC guard.  On the Wolves he could have fantastic value as an Uber-Bassy, an undersized guard who can push the tempo.  He probably doesn't have enough value to be a good top 10 pick, but if he's available at the Heat pick and Curry is off the board (along with a few of the good wings), the Wolves could do a lot worse.

Getting to the heart of the matter, the question for the Wolves is this: do they want to move Randy Foye or Sebastian Telfair to the bench?  If they want to keep Foye in the starting lineup, I think they really have to think hard about Tyreke Evans.  If they want to move him to the bench, I think they would be much better served thinking about a big wing at the 2 (Evan Turner or Demar Derozan...more on them in the wings post) then they would James Harden.  It will depend on draft order but they need size and athleticism at one of the guard spots and I think Evans offers them the best size-based option at the point while Turner and Derozan gives them their best size-based options at the 2. 

Of corse, that being said, Harden is, despite his tourney performance, nothing to sneeze at.  Considering the Wolves' specific roster, he may not be the best fit when they make the pick.  Fortunately, he likely won't be the BPA with their first pick either. 

Beyond the previously mentioned players, I will continue to be firmly planted on the Nick Calathes bandwagon.  There aren't many of us now, but I'm firmly convinced that this guy is going to end up as a solid point in the NBA.  He brings an amazing amount of goods to the table. 

Gerald Henderson, while showing improvement over the last 1/2 of the year, is a) still a Dukie and b) scary as a top-10 pick. Henderson is showing some promise as a junior, but is the risk/reward calculation large enough to separate him from a freshman like Evans or, on a lesser scale, Willie Warren?  If he's under 6'4" he may be a tough pick for the Wolves to make. Plus, he's the joker who went WWE on Ty Hansbrough.  No cheap shot clowns on the Wolves please. Anywho, what I do know is that it will be amazing if Jrue Holiday ends up in the lottery.  I can't believe he's still thinking about entering the draft at this point. 

That about does it for the guards.  What say you?

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Love the Woodside shout-out!

Nice work.

I for one absolutely love Curry. the problem, as you say, is: how to draft him onto a team with a combined 12 feet 4 inches in the backcourt (at most)? They need size back there.

I think at one point you said that you can start either Telfair or Foye but not both. I pretty much agree with that…but if one of them comes off the bench, doesn’t really matter which, you pretty much need someone with size starting alongside whoever stays a starter.

anyways the whole reason for my comment was to figure out a way to draft Curry…and I can’t. Too bad, I’ve been dreaming about him in a Wolves uniform since last spring.

by plinytheelder on Mar 22, 2009 11:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Curry

If we draft Curry we might as well go ahead and implement a D’antoni type system. We already have a team full of physically limited and just plain awful defenders. Futility at it’s finest.

by roundhouse on Mar 22, 2009 11:41 PM CDT reply actions  

i think their only way out of it...

….is to get evans and derozan and hope that they can alternate with foye and bassy before, hopefully, taking over for both. combine that with gomes or brewer at the 3 and you have the makings of a tall and very athletic perimeter, which would make up for a lot. i’d take an evans/derozan draft right now with no complaints. start bassy and derozan or evans and foye and go from there. leave it to the wolves to have a ton of picks in a down draft.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 22, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yea and like you said in one of the other comment sections...

some of these guys are going to stay in school making matters worse.

I’m still holding out for Rubio and will be devastated if we don’t get him. But short of that, I could be content with taking Cole Aldrich if we use our picks/assets to get DeRozan as well.

If we don’t get a big man, I think we should snag Heytvelt from Gonzaga in the 2nd round. First thing I thought of when I saw him play was Matt Bonner. That’s who draftexpress compares him to also. He’s definitely got that big man-with-range thing going on. I’d take a Bonner on the wolves bench.

by roundhouse on Mar 23, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm also hoping for DeRozan...

But I think he and Evans will now be gone by the time the Miami pick rolls around. Otherwise, would Terrence Williams be too much of a reach with the Miami pick? If Utah’s pick comes to us (hoping it doesn’t), that might be a guy to look at even though I don’t see him on the efficiency listing.

As for staying in school, I think that could also have a reverse effect: some who weren’t going to come out might see this as a better opportunity and come out. I’m not sure who that would be because the draft sites are partially guessing when they do the mocks before the early-entry list is finalized.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 23, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Williams fares pretty well...

….i’ll put his stuff up in the wing post. I’m kind of torn on the early entry rule. On one hand, the NBA shouldn’t be telling capable workers that they can’t work. On the other hand, NCAA is the most popular basketball in the country and the more players get known in the season and tourney, the better it is for the NBA. It also reduces risk with picks for rebuilding teams. I think it would be better for the NBA product if there was a 2 or 3 year college requirement. I think that comes at the cost of the players and it would also increase the authority of the NCAA…which I think is a terrible organization. I’d love to see more of a partnership with the NBA and NCAA. It would be nice if the NCAA could admit there is money all over their product and that…well, it will never happen with those sanctimonious bastards. It’s all amateur sports and one shining moment for those clowns.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I feel like Terrence Williams wouldn't bring anything to the wolves we don't already have

Good defender (Brewer), inconsistent shot (Brewer/Carney), slash-n-pass (Miller), great leaper (Carney)

I’ll give him the fact that he’s probably the best rebounding wing out there, but between AL, Love, Brewer, and hopefully a center we get this offseason, that should be pretty well covered.

by roundhouse on Mar 23, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

But...

He brings all of those things in one package. I think he’ll never be a consistent shooter or scorer, but he is SO good in every other aspect of the game – defense, rebounding, passing, leadership – it’s almost worth it to take a look at him with the Miami pick. If we take a PG or C with our first pick, I could see him being a tempting prospect at #18….but I agree it might be a reach.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

You make a good point

I guess I’m assuming Brewer will come back 100%. I’m content with him as a defensive role player.

Personally, I’d rather see us go for DeRozan, Turner, etc. because regardless of Brewer coming back or not, they bring things that this team is missing.

But as you point out, Terrence Williams would be there at #18 while at this point we’d probably have to trade up into the 10-14 range to grab Turner or DeRozan.

by roundhouse on Mar 23, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd mostly consider him...

If he were on the board with the Celtics pick. It’s mainly because I think they need more defensive-minded players and he could guard the 1, 2, and 3. He’s also already got an NBA body, while Brewer needs more muscle. If they played at a faster pace, he and Brewer could play together.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 23, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

your formula...

I think somethings you might consider adding to your formula include strength of conference and some rough measure of potential/draft stock. Obviously strength of conference, as you mentioned, is important to look at because it is going to heavily influence your other variables. I also happen to be a practitioner of the dark economic arts as you call them, though probably closer to an acolyte than a wizard. You might consider using each conference as a dummy variable, or maybe each coach or their system if you had enough degrees of freedom to sacrifice from a large sample size say over a number of years.

The potential/draft stock measure might be useful because it could be a useful predictor of NBA readiness. I’m not sure exactly how you would incorporate such a thing. Maybe pick an expert and separate his or her board into ranges (1-10, 11-20, etc.) Then give a weight to each of those ranges as a multiplier. I think that might help control for the fact that there are players whose games are less likely to translate to the NBA level. I mean, I really like Curry and everything, but there are a lot of smart people who have serious doubts about the way his game will translate. Look at JJ Reddick. I think selecting him with our top pick would probably be a reach,

by ambientmufasa on Mar 22, 2009 11:50 PM CDT reply actions  

we tinkered....

….a bit with conference variables but at the end of the day it was more work than we were willing to put into the formula at the moment….plus, coaching systems seem to have an influence above and beyond what we can measure with our available stats. i like the idea of draft ranges. in our last post we’ll put up a list of what we think are the wolves’ bpa and curry is in the 8-10 range. value wise, he would make no sense in the top 5 for a team like the wolves. they need to pray like hell that turner comes out, that evans is available with the Heat pick and that they can find a way to get a hold of aldrich. the main argument of the last post is that short of griffin or rubio, they need to end up with 2 of the following (or 1 if they get a top 2 pick):

- evan turner
- tyreke evans
- demar derozan
- cole aldrich
- steph curry

also, if it gets to the point where curry is a real possibility, i’ll put up a reddick vs. curry post. i think curry fares pretty well in comparison to reddick.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I still don’t like Tyreke Evans one bit:

From four-letter:

  1. Can be selfish
  2. Over-dribbles
  3. Poor shot selection

I wonder where we’ve seen that before…
I do like his positives but he seems like one of those guys that can completely derail a system; the only player that can do that and still win is Kobe Bryant.

Haven’t had a chance to really watch Curry a lot and even though I still like him a lot I’m starting to wonder why we’d give up our nr1 to get him. I’m with you on Calathes … so why would we waste our nr1 on curry if we can get Calathas with maybe even the Boston pick.
I’d much rather have Harden/Calathes than Curry/Evans.

I’m very slowly starting to warm up to Evan Turner. Haven’t watched him a lot and I’m still keeping in mind that Brewer should be coming back so I’m not completely sure. He also seems like a “solid” player. Sixth man type; the kind we’ve already got loads of…

So I’m quietly for once hoping we either improve our lottery luck or just get lucky and somehow get the 2nd or 3rd pick. Because if that doesn’t happen there’s a pretty big chance we end up with a very disappointing draft and since I wanna continue reading SnP’s material I’d hate for that to happen.

I don’t get the Cole Aldrich thing. We’ve already got him in the form of Peko.

List of similarities:
Physicals: 6’10; strong, wide, buzz cut :p
not very athletical
skill/finesse around the basket post moves
not really helpside defense (not a lot of blocks) but keeps man out of the post
no real jumper to speak of
productive because of hard working

Aldirch might have a step more potential but for the rest they seem like exact clones to me … no?

Holiday; was thoroughly unimpressed by him the one game I watched (against Harden’s team) so yes, without a doubt, he stick around for another year.

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 23, 2009 6:46 AM CDT reply actions  

If I remember right...

…I think Aldrich has something like a 7’3" or 7’5" wingspan. He’s effectively huge. He also has a frame that could add some weight and he could be a bruiser with elite length for years to come. Think Brook Lopez with more defensive potential. Plus, he’s from here so the team could play that angle which is an amazingly popular thing to do around here (see Twins, Minnesota). I think he’s a few years younger than Pekovic as well. If he comes out and the Wolves don’t have a top 2 pick, I think they have to consider Aldrich wherever they end up with their top pick…especially if Turner and Derozan are either not out or if they could be had for a lower price.

In my gut I agree with you about the Harden/Calathes combo. However, if forced to make a pick at this point, I’d take a flier on the defensive potential of Evans as well as the potential of a 6’5"/6’6" athletic point to run the pick and roll with Love. Calathes is good at the latter but Evans has a chance to be great with both. With Evans and Aldrich, the Wolves can go from smurfs to a team with height and no lost athleticism.

I do think you’re right about this thing ultimately being a disappointment if they don’t get a top 2 pick with Griffin or Rubio. Griffin is an absolute monster and Rubio appears to be legit (I really don’t know).

The bottom line for me is that if Aldrich comes out they need to get him + a big guard. They need to move either Bassy or Foye to the bench and hope that Brewer and Big Al can completely recover. If that happens, and they get Aldrich + a big guard, I think they’ve made the best of a bad draft.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Aldrich

In my mind, Aldrich = young Prizbilla. Which is great, if we’re willing to be patient with the kid.

If they can work him into a rotation with Big Al, Love, and Pekovic, where he isn’t asked to be the main defensive stopper in the paint right out of the gate, I think he could really develop into a special player. But I think he’ll get his azz handed to him if some team drafts him and expects a 30+ min starting C right away.

I like what you said about this being a one-man draft (Griffin). I think even the high lottery picks coming out this year will need some time to develop, and expecting stardom out of most of them is unrealistic. I do think Harden could be a contributor (on a good team) right out of the box, same with Curry, Lawson, Turner, and a few other guys. But there are a lot of high-risk guys out there who haven’t proved much in college.

by highpockets on Mar 23, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough; definitly agree on the big guard thing and moving either (or in a perfect world both) to the bench of the Foye/Bassy thing. Though I’ll always be rooting for Thabeet over Aldrich though; just can’t help it ;).

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 23, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm with you on Tyreke Evans

I think he’ll be a chucker in the NBA that scores 16-20 ppg that people think is good unless they actually watch him play and see that it’s hurting his team.

by roundhouse on Mar 23, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Aldrich no Pekovic

I know it’s tough to compare U.S. players with Europeans, but I would say that Aldrich has much, much more potential on the defensive side of the equation based on both his physical profile (as mentioned by SnP) and his actual output. He is one of the best shot blockers and defensive rebounders in the nation. Pek on the other hand is a poor shotblocker and not really a good rebounder either. Think of Pek as a taller version of Craig Smith. He is a prolific and deadly efficient scorer. But I don’t see him making a similar impact on the defensive side of the game. And that’s what is so alluring about Aldrich. Plus add to the fact he’s not pretty solid offensively too.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mkay I took a little peek at the numbers and what you’re saying seems to hold up.

Numbers are adjusted to 40mins, no pace adjustment

Aldrich
Min Pts Rebounds Blocks
40 20,07 14,92 3,53

Pekovic
Min Pts Rebounds Blocks
40 28,68 8,42 1,05 (Greek League)
40 27,62 8,4 1,55 (Euroleague)

Taken from:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36170
http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=GRE&PlayerID=58491

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 23, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Harden

At the beginning of the season I was a MASSIVE Harden supporter. He’s a very efficient player, and he can do many different things on the court, ut after this weekend, I felt like I was having nam-like flashbacks everytime I watched him.

A shooting guard that was clearly the best player on the court, but just refused to shoot. His team was crumbling around him but it didn’t matter to Harden, he still would pass up open shots just so that a lesser player could take a more contested shot. He didn’t even look at the basket sometimes. At least he can rebound well for a guard though!

I think one year of Mike Miller is enough for me.

by Blakeley on Mar 23, 2009 7:21 AM CDT reply actions  

I was wondering...

…if that was more him or the coach. I couldn’t believe that ASU stuck with their offense as long as they did against Syracuse’s zone. When Harden did get the ball in the middle (which was rare) he was able to create space and/or go to the rim. It will be interesting to see how he measures out. If he’s 6’4" with tiny arms…well, the team has tried that before. Of course, depending on where they pick, he may be hard to pass up. He is a very good player and I don’t think the tourney performance should be held against his larger body of work.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

DeRozan

DraftExpress evaluation…

Best Case: Gerald Green
Worst Case: Rodney Carney

Basically, he’s seen as a raw athlete who needs to learn how to play the game. I know he’s shown some signs of putting it together late in the season, but haven’t the Wolves been burned enough by “upside” guys?

I would rather see them go for a “sure thing”, even if that player’s consensus ceiling was lower – similar to the Love/Mayo comparisons early last season – Mayo was seen by many as a potential Franchise Player, and Love as more of a solid role player. While both of those assessments were unrealistic, I’m glad the Wolves took the road they did, and hope they keep moving in that direction.

Get us guys who can PLAY, not guys who can jump out of the gym in pregame warmups but brick 8 out of 10 open jumpers and sturggle to grasp the concept of team defense. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the story with DeRozan, but red flags definitely go up when I see his scouting report. And it’s a similar story with Evans, but at least he’s had a chance to run the point on a good college team, and demonstrated he can do it with some success, whatever his remaining flaws may be.

by highpockets on Mar 23, 2009 8:08 AM CDT reply actions  

Derozan...

….has put up some surprising numbers. He sort of blends in at this point and is quite limited, but at the end of the game he fills up the stat sheet.

I don’t think there is a sure thing in this draft beyond Griffin, Aldrich, and Blair. Everyone else will need to find a system that works for them or be allowed to develop.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree w/SnP...

And would add that that report was made before his recent run. Anyone who saw him play in the last two weeks knows comparisons to Green are inaccurate. He’s capable of playing within a team’s offense and still being productive; a lot of his success scoring has been related to crashing the offensive glass and drawing fouls while making more jump shots. He’s much more a 3 than a 2 at this point because he’s not a good ballhandler. He’s also stronger and more disciplined defensively than a guy like Carney. Green and Carney are freelancers, but DeRozan is capable of playing within a system.

That said, I wouldn’t want him unless he fell to the Miami pick because of the possibility that he’ll never develop a handle or a consistent j and would have to play 3 and small-lineup 4.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 23, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

We already have enough low potential, unathletic role players on this team

Keep in mind superstars win championships

In the past 20 years the only championship team that didn’t have a bonafide superstar is the 04 Pistons. And that team was stacked with great players.

I don’t like those odds, not to mention the ‘04 versions of Chauncey, Sheed, Tayshaun, and Rip Hamilton are all better than anybody we’ve got on our team

by roundhouse on Mar 23, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well said...And it's more like 30 years

since Bird and Magic came into the League in ’80.

Yeah, we have guys with skills: Gomes, Love, Telfair, Miller, Jefferson. But good b-ball IQ and skills aren’t good enough these days. You can’t expect to compete if you are too short and/or slow at every single friggin’ position. Watching that Laker game earlier in the year when they had Bynum was just stunning. Despite Love and Jefferson’s nice skill-set, they were absolutely dominated by a physically superior team. Bynum and Gasol went over the top at will. Odom ate up the offensive glass. Kobe posted Foye with ease. It was an absolute joke. No amount of b-ball skill can make-up for how badly we were overmatched physically. And unfortunately that’s the case to a lesser extreme in almost every single game we play. We need to get some athletes and conventionally sized players on this squad. No more ’tweeners, no more skilled slow guys. We have enough of those types already!!!

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wolves are so far from talk of championships...

I see your point and wouldn’t advocate drafting a slow unathletic type just for the sake of ball skills, but whoever the Wolves draft this year won’t vault them into contention, at least for the next several (SEVERAL) years. And the Wolves aren’t unique in getting abused by the Lakers’ combination of skill and size.

I’m just saying, look at the risk/reward balance – the front office has screwed up too many times to shoot for the moon on high upside players who apparently can’t dribble or shoot that well.

DeRozan made 6 (six!) college-range 3’s all year, on 17% shooting, and had an A/T ratio of 0.7.

Before talking about drafting guys late lottery because “stars win championships”, focus on building a core of reliable players.

I think they are far from having that core. I see Jefferson, Love, and MAYBE Foye and Miller as legit core players on a contender, and that’s it. Gomes and Bassy are decent bench players, but certainly replaceable. Brewer gets a pass for now but without an offensive game he’s basically a poor man’s Bruce Bowen, whatever that’s worth. Everyone else is basically roster filler.

There are dozens of 6’7" guys in the D-League who can jump out of the gym but can’t put it together in an NBA game.

by highpockets on Mar 23, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

But this is what makes DeRozan tempting....

Despite not having a 3-point shot or elite ball-handling skills, he STILL put up solid numbers as a freshman in the tough Pac-10. It’s not like he’s totally bereft of skills. Not all of those baskets are on dunks and putbacks; he made a couple of very advanced moves in the game I saw yesterday against MSU. One was a tight-rope act along the baseline for a beautiful finish and another was a pull up fade-away mid-range jumper. Now imagine what he’d do with expanded range and improved handles? These things can be improved upon, especially with a young kid like him. Now if he were a Junior or Senior at USC and had the type of season he did, there indeed would be serious question marks. But he steadily improved throughout the year, while at the same time the lights got brighter and the stage got bigger. That’s a good sign to me.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

his net numbers were surprising....

…and they helped him end up as the #2 wing behind Turner on the wing list. his ratio of good events to bad events during any given game was well above most of his peers. you just hope that he can carry that to a greater usage rate with improved efficiency. with his athleticism, that’s an interesting set of tools. short of griffin and rubio (i’m taking the words of people who place him in the top 2; i know nothing about the kid), the rest of this draft is a crap shoot for a team not willing to take dejuan blair (blair is amazing and I have no idea why he’s not in the top 5 conversation) and bpa just might equal the guy who a team thinks has the most potential….which is a scary proposition with a pick from 3-10.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Putting together a bunch of role players is the wrong way to go about things.

A team like the Wolves needs a top pick to get a superstar, barring getting lucky by making a smart draft pick (that sure will never happen). Your way of doing things will get us to mediocrity and 10 years of picks in the 8-14 range.

Unless of course you think Lebron, DWade, or Bosh are coming here in the 2010 free agency (LOL)

by roundhouse on Mar 24, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

the problem with that..

…is that they don’t exactly grow on trees. i think there are two players in this draft with superstar potential (i’ll leave rubio out of it because we all know next to nothing about the kid): griffin and derozan. griffin is pretty much a known quantity…derozan, not so much. derozan shot 56% from 2 with no outside shot. he carried a 40% ft rate with a developing handle. he had an upper level OReb% for a 2 guard. he’s 19 with legit nba size.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 24, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Eric Maynor

I like this guy as a late 1st-round pick, better than Calathes (who I do like, but as a 2nd round pick).

by highpockets on Mar 23, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions  

One way to fix the conference waiting

might be to take a book from baseball in ops+
you could take the avg efficiency and net numbers to create an eff+ and Net+ numbers for each conference. that might be one way to see how much better then the avg for each conference is, and a way to weight the compatition of each conference compared to each other.
as an example., the avg eff number for conf A is 25, and for Conf B it is 30. player in conf A has an eff number of 40 inn conf A and player be has an eff number of 38. player A may seem bettter, but he did it against weaker comp then player B so you could use that as a way of weighting the conferences.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 23, 2009 9:32 AM CDT reply actions  

also, using eff+ and Net+

could help compare players from year to year, just like OPS+ helps compare baseball players from different eras, since an ops+ of 110 has the same value no matter what year the players played in.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 23, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

thanks for the suggestion..

….and we’ll check it out. we’re reading through a bunch of bill james’ stuff to get ideas and that is a good one.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

great post!

and no question, if we don’t come out of the draft without Griffin or Rubio or Aldrich, or one of your big/small pupu platters, it will be time to find a new winter hobby (ice fishing with Tubby, perhaps?).

i know the stats don’t lie, but i think Holliday, if he’s available, would be an excellent get with a non-lottery pick. IIRC, Westbrook’s #‘s last season weren’t spectacular, and while Howland’s system is surely not built to give guards good numbers, one thing you definitely get is good D.

i also wonder about Brandon Jennings, i don’t blame the kid for skipping out on Arizona (though can you imagine? they definitely wouldn’t have been a 12 seed) and making some cash overseas. i wonder how he’ll look in workouts, and could be a Westbrook-type suprise.

one last thing- i’m kinda enamored with A.J. Abrams right now, at least as a change-of-pace 12 points of the bench guy a la Eddie House. think he’d be worth a 1st rounder? no question in my mind he’d be worth a 2nd, but if a best case scenario played out and we already had a pupu on the books and the C’s pick on the clock?

by johndough on Mar 23, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions  

Here are Abrams' numbers:

23.175/4.24

What really hurt him is that he doesn’t do much of anything but score (only 48 assists, 4 blocks, not a huge number of steals) and he took 484 shots to score 580 points. He doesn’t get to the line or create a lot of non-scoring events. This leaves him with a long range jumper. Is there a place for him in the NBA. I don’t know. I think he’d have to show that he could be on the ball for 10-15 minutes a game to make it happen.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

and he's so short

dude is listed at 5’9." with foye already getting dwarfed this seems like a dangerous direction in which to move even further.

but man it was definitely something to watch him tear it up the other day.

by secretarykissinger on Mar 23, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's interesting

The only player on today’s list that I would consider drafting with the expected 5-7 pick is Evans, as he’s the only guy I see a path to stardom for. With his size and strength and ability to handle, it’s possible. Of course, like everyone, there’s an alternative; he could be Jamal Crawford.

I also might be alone in liking Jonny Flynn, who is a terrific passer and reasonably strong despite being undersized.

Right now that 6th pick is looking a little like a deadzone, isn’t it? Nobody you really want to commit to there. Some lottery luck and Rubio is obviously the jackpot.

by Eric in Madison on Mar 23, 2009 9:57 AM CDT reply actions  

picking 3-10

is a dead zone unless some of these younger players like aldrich start declaring.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

3-10 might be a deadzone but

thats only cuz there isnt anyone who is already a star…the wolves have to find the right guy with that pick. i like evans because he shows the ability to create and get to the rim which no one on the wolves seems able to do consistantly.
With Al i think the most important position to target is a guard, i really like Maynor and also Flynn, each has almost 7 assists a game.
What do you think of Sam Young and Damion James?

by Gophers12 on Mar 23, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

i think maynor could be a decent pick...

….depending on where he goes. i don’t have the numbers in front of me, but young and james will be in the wing post. i’ll put it up later this week.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

What about Defense?

SnP, You need to overview your formulaic results with a subjective defensive rating, because these are real concerns NBA scouts have with guys like Curry, Calathes, and Budinger. Perhaps you create a pure mock based on the formula, then adjust it based on perceived defensive capability at the next level, noting the ones you’ve upgraded or downgraded. I’d knock Curry and Calathes down a couple notches off the pedestal you have them standing on right now because I’m not convinced either can stay in front of NBA point guards. That’s a really important criteria to me and one that can’t just be ignored.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 11:50 AM CDT reply actions  

we do have..

….a DE rating and we use weighted formulas on blocks and steals. if we had more data points from something like synergy sports we could go further but we do have a bit of defense in there. college zones really fubar this part of the equation however.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

For what it's worth

There was a guy on KFAN with PA this morning (I think he’s the in-studio analyst for FSN on wolves telecasts) who was representing that he was tight with Aldrich and his family.

He implied that Aldrich had an insurance policy against debilitating injury and therefore was not feeling pressure to go to the NBA (I guess he was also implying that the family doesn’t have an economic necessity for him to go pro) and that since he had a shot of being an all-american next year, he wasn’t likely to be going to the NBA. Not sure I believe that this guy has any real insight, but assuming he’s correct on the insurance policy, if his family doesn’t need the income, those are a couple of things that separate Aldrich from some of the other top underclassmen.

One question I had re: players going pro: how will the labor/revenue issues facing the league affect who decides to go pro? Isn’t their a risk of a lockout in 2010 (or is it 2011?). Wouldn’t you want to get into the league now, given that the only result of the last few CBAs has been more restrictive/longer rookie contracts? I haven’t heard anyone commenting on it, but if I was an “advisor” to a kid, I’d certainly bring it up.

by Sterno on Mar 23, 2009 12:09 PM CDT reply actions  

mike mccollough (sp?)

he’s a bloomington guy too. he played for kennedy in the 80s and went on to have a decent coaching career. i know some folks who know some folks…well, i’d believe what he says about anyone associated with bloomington ball. aldrich could be a top 5 pick if he stays in. could he be one this year? i don’t know but that’s an awful lot of money if he can make it up near the top.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's the guy

And I agree with you re:Aldrich. He probably needs a couple more games like the last two, but he’s probably raised his stock as much as anyone in the tourney, while some guys like Harden and the Wake guys probably hurt their stock (or at least didn’t help it).

From what I’ve seen, he’s much more multi-faceted than Thabeet, for example, and so far as I can tell, those are the only guys with legit height that folks are talking about in the lottery. But I’ll wait for you review of the bigs before I comment further. I haven’t seen enough college ball this year to comment.

by Sterno on Mar 23, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aldrich vs. Thabeet

I’ve watched these two guys a ton this year, and Thabeet a ton last year as well. I can tell you that defensively, Aldrich doesn’t touch Thabeet in terms of the total impact on the opposing team’s offense. Aldrich is less likely to lose one-on-one matchups to bullying post players (like Dejuan Blair) because he holds ground so much better than Thabeet. But Aldrich is not nearly the weakside shotblocker and defensive safety valve that Thabeet is. Hasheem is a freakishly long player that gets off the floor with ease and with quickness. And you can’t look at only BPG to get a total read on his impact. I’ve seen teams literally give up challenging UConn on the interior. I’ve even seen him fake a shotblock and the opposing player puts extra arc or releases it extra quickly and it causes a badly missed shot. For all of his rawness in other parts of the game, he is a naturally gifted shotblocker.

Overall, Aldrich is a more well-rounded player. He gives up position less easily in the paint and has a more advanced (although not highly advanced) offensive repertoire. The question you have to answer is does Thabeet’s shotblocking and length have such a huge impact that it makes up for his other shortcomings? And by the way, his shortcomings have improved every year since a freshman. For example, he was a pretty weak rebounder a couple of years ago. His rebounding is now very solid, as his hands have improved a lot. Scouts will need to figure out if he can continue this improvement trend so that he reaches acceptable levels of performance in the other facets of the game. But in terms of being a defensive presence, I think there is no question he will make a big impact at the next level.

At the end of the day, I’d be good with either of these two guys on our squad. I think Thabeet would require a little more patience, while Cole would probably be ready Day 1 to be the first big off the bench.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 1:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Just about to waste some more time

with a post like this. Yours was better, though.

Two things in Thabeet’s favor for the Wolves: He probably offers higher risk/reward than Aldrich at this point. But the Wolves need the higher reward, and can afford to take the risk (not much left to lose). Also, he compliments Love/AlJeff better than Aldrich does (Aldrich is “Similarities: Kevin Love” on four-letter.com.Thabeet’s presence would also help the Wolves’ weak perimeter defense in ways that Aldrich can’t.

by PoorDick on Mar 23, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

did they really compare him to kevin love?

stupid 4 letter. i don’t see that at all other than they are both white. i think it will be interesting to see just how aldrich measures out. i’ve read 7’3-7’5" wingspan and if that’s the case, he can be an eraser in the paint. that’s enormous. plus, he looks like he could end up putting on much more weight than thabeet. his man defense potential is much greater than thabeet’s and i think he ends up being just as good of a help side defender with his length.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 23, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

my question about Thabeet

And it’s one of ignorance rather than a bias against him, is this: does his excellent help defense and ability to defend the paint translate into the NBA game where zone isn’t allowed? I know UCONN plays man, but Thabeet spends the majority of his time in the paint, and he has real problems defending the pick and roll (from what I’ve seen). Combine that with the ability of stronger players with skills (such as Blair) to get him on his heels and then shoot over him, I wonder if he will really be a difference maker in the NBA. Case in point: marcus camby, who’s a much better offensive player, may be the most similar in terms of body type to Thabeet. And while he’s a great defensive rebounder and shot blocker, it turns out that his teams often aren’t great defensive teams because you can attack him on the pick and roll and he’s not that great a man-to-man defender.

Again, I’m not saying I’d take Aldrich over Thabeet (I think Aldrich will have some of these same issues, though he’s clearly stronger and a better on the ball defender at this point, in my opinion), I’m just wondering what the consensus is. Wim, want to speak for the Thabeet drum beaters?

by Sterno on Mar 23, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep,

Every time I’ve seen Thabeet against a strong center, Hashie’s been pushed into third row of the stands, as long as the refs aren’t calling it tight (i.e., they’re applying NBA standards for play in the paint). His lack of low anchor makes be believe that in the NBA, his man could even push him out of the path of driving opponents.

I would also say that Aldrich offers much-needed local fan favorite appeal, while Thabeet’s would be more out of curiousity. But assuming the Wolves pick 3rd or later, and Aldrich doesn’t come out, they might have no choice but to take Thabeet.

by PoorDick on Mar 23, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

But....

Thabeet is more mobile than what you might think. He covers a lot of ground for a dude that’s 7’3. And don’t forget that with his length and quick hops, he doesn’t have to move around much to still get a hand up in someone’s sight line. And Thabeet is no Marcus Camby. He’s about 4 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier.

What I see being Thabeet’s problem is he often doesn’t get into a defensive stance. This is what adds to his high center of gravity and makes it easier to push him around. If he learns to widen his stance and bend his knees more instinctively, this will make a huge difference in his ability to hold ground. That’s just fundamental stuff that I’m surprised he’s not doing yet under the tutelage of Calhoun.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

also

although it’s true Thabeet has improved every year, Aldrich has really improved in just one year. He barely played last year and now he’s a monster. Thabeet has not shown similar progress in the same amount of time.

by littleboxes on Mar 23, 2009 3:56 PM CDT reply actions  

That's because

he was a Freshman and playing behind Sasha Kahn and Darrel Arthur. Now go back and look at his per 40 stats. You could tell he was a stud in waiting. Thabeet has improved on a per minute basis on a number of important areas, mostly his rebounding, FTA’s, Fouling, and overall scoring.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 23, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think if we are going to Use our second round pick

Take a Flyer on Woodside…I’m a big fan of his.

But i think no matter what your pick is…If he comes out you take Cole Aldrich..Unless you can get Blake Griffin…Then i would say take Ty Lawson, James Harden or Jeff Teague with your second first round pick.

by Tony_O on Mar 23, 2009 3:59 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm for using the second-round picks on guys...

Who will go to Europe for a couple of years so there’s a potential for them to come back and be good contributors while saving the team two roster spots. Who, then, might be good choices for the Wolves with that in mind?

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 23, 2009 5:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Here are a few names.

Vladimir Dasic SF Montenegro

Emir Preldzic SG/SF Slovenia

Milenko Tepic PG/SG Serbia

Sergio Llull PG/SG Spain

Also…NBA Draft.net Has our current draft as such

#5. Brandon Jennings..#18 Patrick Patterson #28 J’Rue Holliday

by Tony_O on Mar 23, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

NBADraft.net tends not to pay..

too much attention to team need. They often times have had the Wolves picking clearly redundant players. That said I wouldn’t be against a Jennings/Holliday 2-fer. Let them fight it out.

I wish they had James Johnson in their instead of Patterson… that’d be a draft I’d be psyched about.

by Pants_ on Mar 25, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

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