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Hoopus Draft Board pt. iii, non-Griffin bigs

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OK, you know the drill by now.  You can read the first two draft sections here (guards) and here (wings).  Also, just in case you're wondering, Griffin is far and away the highest rated player in this draft so we're leaving him out of the proceedings. It's a 1-man draft.  A menage-uno, if you will.  Let's get moving:

  1. Hasheem Thabeet:  42.7/14.703 (57.4)
  2. DeJuan Blair: 37.825/15.578 (53.403)
  3. Tyler Hansbrough: 39.375/13.766 (53.141)
  4. Cole Aldrich: 35/14.863 (49.863)
  5. Jerome Jordan: 38.55/10.652 (49.202)
  6. Greg Monroe: 37.475/9.822 (47.297)
  7. Jordan Hill: 33.999/12.451 (46.45)
  8. B.J. Mullens: 36.875/5.787 (42.622)
  9. James Johnson: 29.375/10.77 (40.145)

Top 5 quality side:

  1. Thabeet: (42.7)
  2. Hansbrough: (39.375)
  3. Jordan (38.55)
  4. Blair (37.825)
  5. Monroe (37.475)

Top 5 quantity side:

  1. Blair: (15.578)
  2. Aldrich: (14.863)
  3. Thabeet: (14.703)
  4. Hansbrough: (13.766)
  5. Hill: (12.451)

OK, long time readers of this site know that they won't hear this too often, but I want you to ignore Thabeet's first number.  Why? Because this is a good example of why scouting is important and why you need to collect as much data as possible on a player in order to make an informed decision.  There is no such thing as a unified single player eval stat (even if there were, it wouldn't be of much use; the Hoopus Score is just another way to create a floor upon with which you can begin to grade talent) and I'd like to point out a few things specific to Mr. Thabeet.

Thabeet carries an absurdly high FTRate (77.2) and eFG (64.5%).  He also carries an absurdly low %Poss (19.7) and %shots (17) for someone with such good stats at the line and from the floor.  Put yourself in Jim Calhoun's shoes.  You have a 7'3" monster on your team who shoots 65% from the floor and gets to the line at an absolutely absurd rate.  Why does he only factor in 19.7% of his team's possessions?  Why does he only take 17% of the shots? A: He's not a functional player on 1/2 of the court.  He's 1/2 a player and horribly so, often looking like he has never been asked to put a little orange ball in a hoop before.  Even rarer than his height, Thabeet has the ability to disappear better than any 7 footer on the planet.   For every decent game he has, there are times where he gets dominated (see Monroe and Blair) or fails to show (see his game against A&M).  Basketball is a game of net possessions.  Yes, Thabeet will affect things on one side of the court more than your average big man.  He's huge.  However, I would strongly argue that he hurts far more than he helps by being absolutely inadequate on the side of the court where our favorite team already has a guy who will sit in the post.  If the Wolves landed him, at least it would be entertaining seeing opposing teams double Big Al off of a 7'3" center.  If Thabeet is to be the Wolves pick, they will have to work their way through a mountain of situational differences.  Zone vs. man defense; Big East vs. smaller conferences; Thabeet vs. opponents who weigh above or below 250lbs; and so on and so forth.  They will also have to figure out what he brings to the table that is not available in a traditional box score.  How many shots does he alter (in zone or man)? How many bad passes does he force (in zone or man)? What is his foul rate in zone or man? You get the picture.  There is something amiss with Thabeet's game.  Obviously so.  He's too big and too dominant in certain aspects of the game to be so hidden in others.  This is the case with every player but even more so with Thabeet.  Whoever takes him (or passes on him for good reason) will really, really have to do their homework.

The player I would really like to point out as the best big in the country is Pitt's DeJuan Blair.  Unlike Thabeet, Blair factors in on the offensive end of the court (while not being a slouch on defense).  He puts up over 1/4 of his team's shots and factors in 1/4 of their possessions while on the court.  He leads the nation in offensive rebounding, putting up a beyond amazing 24.2% OReb%.  Good. Lord. Blair is going to make some team very, very happy and if I were the Griz or Thunder and I was not the proud owner of a top 3 pick, I'd strongly consider moving down to the highest spot where Blair was available.  Hell, take him at 5.  I have zero idea how this guy is not in the upper-level lottery discussion.  He's a rebounding monster.  Kevin Love wasn't even remotely close to the offensive rebounding display that Blair has put on.  This guy is going to be a legit PF in the NBA for a long, long time and I think it is beyond crazy that he's not ranked higher on more draft boards. 

Before I finally get around to admitting that Thabeet is the 3rd best big man in this draft, let's talk about #2, Cole Aldrich.  Simply put, Aldrich produces.  He has shown consistent improvement and he has an NBA ready frame.  He is another player that the league should hope the Thunder don't get their hands on.  For those of you who don't think that the Wolves should draft a guy that is listed at 6'10" in some places, the young fella has a 7'5" wingspan.  It will be very interesting to see his vertical and true height.

Beyond Blair, Aldrich, and Thabeet, the best bigs in this draft are Hill and Hansbrough.   One of the assumptions we are making with the Hoopus Score is that the quantity side matters more with bigs than it does for wings and guards.  If you are a large and athletic player, you should be shooting well from the field and getting to the line.  You should be gathering a lot of rebounds and blocked shots.  Net numbers matter for giants.  Plus, we've run the score back a few years and productive NBA bigs all have a nice quantity score.  Blair, Aldrich, and Thabeet all produce.  Hansbrough produces.  Hill produces.  Hansbrough ultimately gets moved down the list because he is an undersized college big who relies on getting to the line to score while doing very little besides putting the ball in the bucket.  Could he be a good passer and are his absurdly low assist numbers simply a reflection of his role in the UNC offense?  Perhaps, but that is something that pre-draft workouts and scouting will have to determine.

As far as the Wolves are concerned, if they are sitting there with either the Utah or Boston pick and Hansbrough or Jerome Jordan is still on the board, they go with Jordan.  If BJ. Mullens is still on the board, they go with Jordan.  If Monroe is still on the board, that's an interesting argument that will depend heavily on non-HS investigation.  It would really depend on figuring out how to weigh conference differences (C-USA vs. Big East), mutual opponents (if any), and other variables that can be worked around as much as possible. 

In terms of the Wolves' existing roster, and with an eye on the final part of this draft board series, here is how I would rank the bigs on the Hoopus Wolves draft board:

  1. Cole Aldrich
  2. Hasheem Thabeet
  3. DeJuan Blair
  4. Jerome Jordan

It was reported earlier today that B.J. Mullens will enter the draft.  As I have written a few times before, I think we're looking at Deandre Jordan pt. ii with Mr. Mullens.  I'm not sure he'd be worth the Heat pick, especially with players like Eric Maynor and Nick Calathes possibly on the board, but he would be an interesting pick-up with the Utah or Boston picks. 

Anywho, that about does it for the bigs.  In the next post I'll combine all 3 parts into the 1st pre-draft Hoopus Draft Board. 

Until later.

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Regarding Thabeet...

you mention all the research that will have to be done and information that needs to be digested on him so that the people in charge can be as informed as possible. That sounds like way too much work for McHale & Co. Jeez, they don’t get paid by the hour you know, how hard do you want them to work?

This is what we should do: Step 1: draft Aldrich, Hansbrough, and Singler to go along with Cardinal, Maddog, Love, and Miller. Step 2: figure out where the DeLorean time machine is being kep and steal it. Step 3: Travel back in time to 1950 and Dominate! Anytyyyyhiiiiiiiiiiing is Poooooooossssssssiiiiiiiiiiible!

by roundhouse on Mar 26, 2009 10:56 PM CDT reply actions  

sounds like a plan

;)

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 26, 2009 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

We're going to need some Plutonium

unless we can find a Mr. Fusion on craigslist…

by princelyfrank on Mar 27, 2009 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

blair is too short

i like blair but i think hes a little too short to play with love and al who are also undersized. if we would have just gone after the best center last draft and got lopez blair would be ok. what has calathas done to be a top 20 pick in the couple games ive seen him play he hasnt looked that special.
if somehow we did end up with the top pick how athletic do you think griffin is? athletic enough to play the 3 so we could have griffing love and al out there?

by Gophers12 on Mar 26, 2009 11:40 PM CDT reply actions  

What he said

Blair is probably 6’6. I remember watching the Rhino dominate the ACC in college…

by SuperVillian on Mar 26, 2009 11:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Indeed.

I’d be a lot more interested in Blair if we didn’t already have Love and Rhino.

by princelyfrank on Mar 27, 2009 2:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

you guys are spot on about....

….the main reason why the wolves shouldn’t draft the guy unless they have plans to move smith. he would be a super rhino however.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I concur with both sentiments.

If he were supposed to be the fourth big in a Love-Jeff-Rhino-Blair rotation, I think I’d samurai my way out of this world. He’s got stunningly little lift, which is unfortunately a recurring theme with us. If, however, we could package Smith to move up in the draft, it would sure be nice to maintain that brute force on our bench and actually have said force play defense this time.

by TheH on Mar 27, 2009 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

wingspan

Blair has a 7’ 3’’ wingspan, according to ESPN. What is Smith’s wingspan?

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

minus 6

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chris Richard had a long wingspan too....

yet still didn’t have the lift or reaction time to block or deter shots. Now Blair is a much, much better rebounder and that should easily translate to the NBA. He is Reggie Evans on steroids. But the Jefferson/Love combo already have rebounding covered. They need either a true big man next to them or a bouncy, long wing.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 27, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I ²nd the comments about Blair; nice player but we already got enough of those.

The fact that Thabeet is used so little. Isn’t that exactly what we’re looking for? Someone who can make a difference on defense but doesn’t need to ball in his hands on offence. We’re already gonna give it to Jefferson so Thabeet’s not gonna get used that much on offense anyway.
I do get what you’re saying about the double teaming… I might be selling bs here but if Jefferson works enough on his passing game … I don’t see why this couldn’t work in a Tim Duncan – Fabricio Oberto kind of way…

I’m also starting to see the positives on Aldrich. I’d still only pick him with the Heat pick (or improved uptrade version); never with the top pick … we just haven’t got a lot of minutes left to spend at the frontcourt, we already got two 35mpg players there. Let’s not waste our top pick on a guy who can be nothing more than a 25mpg type of guy?

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 27, 2009 5:01 AM CDT reply actions  

thabeet...

….will be a liability on offense in the NBA. Last night’s game was a perfect example of what he brings to the table. He intimidated on defense (by camping out in the lane), grabbed a bunch of rebounds, and stood in one spot on offense. That will work against college teams but not in the NBA, where he will lose some of his ability to just camp in the lane on d. When was the last time anyone saw someone post him up 1-on-1?

Oberto can pass, move, and even hit an open jumper. Thabeet, at this point in his career, will lead his team in a wicked game of offensive 4 on 5.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 7:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Standing in one spot.

That’s exactly what he did on both ends for the entire game. He’s a foot taller than some of these guys, with something like a 7’7" wingspan. If he were not so unforgivably upright all the time, but assumed some sort of a defensive stance that allowed him to move laterally for once in his life, this kid would be simply un. real. Until he shows better fundamentals on defense, though…

by TheH on Mar 27, 2009 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

In the Pro Game

I think that Thabeet’s lack of fundamental footwork will get him into a lot of Foul trouble at the NBA level. every one he goes up against will be better, faster, stronger and bigger, and more accurate with their shots then what he faced in college

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 28, 2009 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also; the true high index is something we really need to keep an eye on. Can we get our hands on that formula? It’s really confusing when only the normal height is listed and especially when it sometimes makes such a big difference to their no-shoes height. I’m gonna keep an extra out out for standing reach this time around. …

Also, chest (among others) width should be take into consideration more. The biggest problem with Thabeet is that he’s big but really has not a solid core/base/fundament… Can we work out a “physical index” of some kind that takes into consideration the true height thing and adds some things like weight/inch and body fat/muscle measurements (not sure anymore if they do the muscle things … they would be VERY handy).

If possible, I’d use the no-shoes height instead of the shoe’d one though.

And really guys, get rid of that imperial system, the smallest unit is a whole inch?; come’on! (harr harr)

Beater of the early Thabeet drum

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 27, 2009 5:17 AM CDT reply actions  

I was aiming to email...

…the guy behind the formula. He goes to school in St. Paul.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thabeet / Evans

I thought Thabeet looked miles better last night than he did in the 1st 2 rounds of the tourney. But there were still a number of times when he was around the free throw line, one of his teammates got beat, and he made no effort to get back to the paint to contest. This may be part of Calhoun’s master plan to avoid fouling (they foul at the lowest rate in the country, which is amazing when you consider they play in the Big East). I have serious concerns that most NBA teams will force him away from the rim, where he will be too slow to rotate back effectively.

T. Evans, on the other hand: isn’t he just what we need? An athletic wing with the confidence and the handle to get to the hole? If he can play PG, great. If not, I still like him next to Bassy, though outside shooting could be a concern.

by Sterno on Mar 27, 2009 7:02 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't know if I wrote it here or on another board...

…but Evans would change this team more than any other player. His strengths and weaknesses are the opposite of Mayo. He can’t shoot from the outside but he is huge and can get to the rim and line. Mayo is kind of short and can’t get to the rim or line but he can shoot from the outside. I have him in the list of guys that can go with the top pick. 6’6" with a 6’11.5" wingspan at the point (it will be very interesting to see his standing reach) is awesome. I don’t know if he can play it but he can certainly be the guy on the ball near the end of games.

The fan geek in me wants to see a Derozan/Evans draft. Get them both. Move up to do it. The best part about it is that you could ease them both in with Bassy and Foye and hopefully, in 2-3 years, you could have a team with an athletic monster of a back court. Also, from the way Derozan has fit in at USC, I think they’d work out together.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 7:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Salivating.

At the thought of two athletic backcourt members… (Has there ever been a time?) But if we are starting Evans/Derozan/(Brewer?) we’d be the worst perimeter shooting squad in the league, right?

by TheH on Mar 27, 2009 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

perimeter shooting

unless these guys have awful form, they will learn how to shoot the ball. Hell, even Brewer was improving and his form isn’t that great. These guys are so young. Dwade couldn’t hit a jumper his first year in the league and he’s pretty deadly now. I think the scouts look more at jump shooting potential than current production.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Granted...

…i haven’t watched Evans a whole lot, and here is where I hope they scout the kid, but in the few times I’ve seen him, his jumper has been atrocious. He fades away on damn near every shot. No clue why he does this or why it wasn’t corrected at an early age.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ahem

Shorter SnP: “I don’t like Thabeet, so let’s ignore the numbers that make him look good.”

Kidding…sort of. I like Thabeet more than you, certainly, and frankly I’m not entirely clear what it is you see in Aldrich. It’s clear to me that, at the very least, Thabeet is going to bring one outstanding skill to the League. That’s something.

Frankly, I don’t like either guy with a top-6 pick; Evans is the guy I think could be a real difference maker for this team.

by Eric in Madison on Mar 27, 2009 8:00 AM CDT reply actions  

I can't remember another player...

….with such a big gap between usage (bad) and efficiency (good). I think the reason for this is that he is only able to score and rebound when the game comes to him by virtue of his height. They run nothing for the guy and he often drifts away from the play. Aldrich knows how to play and you won’t have to hide him on offense. He also has the tools to play man defense from the get to.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thabeet may put up great numbers ...

but, he has several flaws. and is an example of why statistics don’t tell the whole story. he tends to disipear for large parts of games. he can be dominated by powerful bigs on other teams. he is a junior, but, despite three years in college, his fundamentals are atrocius. if he couldn’t learn any fundamentals in three years at college, what makes you believe he could learn them at the pro lvl? if he was a freshmen, then this could be overlooked. but he should have shown improvement in his fundamentals if he was really capable of learning them. I see his big numbers, and see them as being the result of always beeing the biggest man on the court, and very little to do with any actual skill or effort. and those tendencies often do not lend to beign good Pro’s.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 27, 2009 8:15 AM CDT reply actions  

the fundamentals....

…are non existent. It’s pretty striking. He just stands there with zero feel for the game.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

What makes me hopeful

Is that Thabeet’s limitations are obvious enough to us laymen here on the board that most NBA scouts are aware of them too.

And I’m not against Thabeet. I think he can be a solid contributor, and presumably he would get 24-30mn a night, and no more.

But as EinM points out, it’s a question of value. Assuming we’re drafting top-5, there has to be a way to get a true difference maker who you expect to play 36mn a night, not 24.

I’m curious to your overall rankings, SnP, but right now, there are 4 guys in the draft that I like: Griffin, Rubio, DeRozan and Evans. Harden scares me a bit — when I’ve seen him play, he’s looked incredibly mediocre for long stretches, and I don’t think he’s the athlete that DeR or Evans are. Maybe if Turner comes out, that would be another one, but once again, we could very easily find ourselves in another situation where we’re drafting a few spots too late. I will now light a candle and pray to the lottery gods. . .

by Sterno on Mar 27, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

pushed around

Although Thabeet got a lot of rebounds last night against Purdue he also got pushed around a lot in the paint. Purdue was able to box him out pretty well and deny him rebounds. Most of his rebounds were gifts to the tallest man on the floor. Rarely did he battle for position.

He also, as others point out above, looked totally lost on offense. He doesn’t move well or much at all without the ball and all he seems to know how to do is dunk the ball ferociously. That’s not a bad skill to have and it might be all he needs to be well above average in the NCAA but real NBA centers are going to destroy this guy. Destroy. Hell, Kevin Love would destroy this guy on the boards and draw him out of the paint with his jump shot. Since Thabeet has no low post offense, he would be rendered useless.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's definitely the worry

It would definitely be interesting to see a highlight reel with him having to play 1-on-1 defense as well as how he positions himself for rebounds. I thought Jay Bilas made a very good point about him last night. He looks comfortable when he has space. The second he gets crowed, it all falls apart. The problem with that is that you can hide him a bit in a college zone or even on offense by having him roam about just outside the lane, but in the NBA, a 7’3" guy isn’t going to have any room whatsoever and I’d hate to think that his rebounding at that level would be based on crashing from the outside.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

????

Does it look like aldrich is coming out?
I like aldrich as 1A and Thabeet as 1B. aldrich is way more polished offensively but im not sure you give thabeet enough credit on defensive. i know he just stands in the lane which he cant do in the NBA but hes so long he probably be able to take one step and be in position if he learned. also with jefferson he doesnt need to be great on offense, we saw how well their plan didnt work with jefferson and love playing together.

so far tyreke evans is the player i think we have to draft it seems like the wolves have never had a play who was able to get to the rim like he does, also if we drafted him and maynor/flynn i think one of their styles will work out as the point.

what are your thoughts on rodney carney? i admit i havent alot of games this year but everytime i see carney he hits 3’s (im sure he doesnt always go 7/8). he seems like a decent defender and is extremely athletic.

by Gophers12 on Mar 27, 2009 11:58 AM CDT reply actions  

I think Carney..

….is a nice player, fun to watch, but ultimately is deserving of the Kirk Snyder treatment.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

Carney is a pleasure to watch. But he scores almost all of his points on 3-pointers and dunks. If he was a more consistent 3 point shooter and a more consistent defender it might be worthwhile to sign him. But he’s not consistent from the three and his defense is average at best. Brewer is the superior player.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry...

The post below was supposed to go here.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 27, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

why you hatin on carney

i might think carney is a little better than he really is just because the games ive seen he has done well but… whats wrong with scoring all of his points on 3’s and dunks? brewer has improved but i dont think he has shown a ton of consistency also i like carney better than miller and miller’s supposed to be the 3 point guy. i think the main problem for carney is he doesnt get enough playing time, personally i think its hard to come off the bench half way through the 2nd quarter and make your first shot then sit the rest of the game and be 0 for 1 or 0 for 2 because you dont have enough playing time to get your shot going.
also some interesting stats: when carney has more than 2 3point attempts his 3 point percentage is like 45% which is good also he is 6th on the team in points/minute and 5th if Al is taken out cuz hes injured.

by Gophers12 on Mar 27, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Carney

I like rodney carney. I just don’t like the thought of signing him to a long term deal for too much money.

There’s not necessarily a problem with scoring most of his points off of dunks and three-pointers. I guess the problem is that
a) Carney is not a high-percentage 3-point option. Conditional on Mike Miller actually shooting the ball, I’d much rather have him open outside the 3point line than Carney. The question is then can he improve the 3 and bring other things to his game. For example, if Carney could stroke the 3 like his former teammate Kyle Korver, he’d be a much more valuable player. If he played good defense as well, he could be the next Bruce Bowen? But…
b) Carney’s defense is not impressive, especially when considering his athletic ability. Brewer is a superior defender already and he has much less NBA experience.
c) What does Carney bring to the team besides athleticism and inconsistent 3-point shooting? He doesn’t seem like a great passer or a good ball handler. He doesn’t get to the free-throw line and cannot create his own shot.

Bottom line: If he’s incredibly cheap, they might consider signing him for another year. But it would be probably be foolish to sign him to a 3 year deal because he’s replaceable. He’s fun to watch, but he should not be over-valued.

Also, the with regard to the interesting stat:

The reason that his FG% is so high when he shoots more threes is because
a) when he’s hitting shots he shoots more
b) when he’s not hitting shots, they take him out of the game

In other words, I don’t think that stat indicates that if we let Carney shoot more he’ll hit at a higher percentage.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

carney

i dont think carney is a player any/many teams would pay alot for and i dont think the wolves should over pay him either.
a) i believe miller and carney are both shooting about 36% and miller plays like twice as much so im guessing he probably gets better look but i dont know for sure
b) i know carney lacks some on defense but i dont think you should penalize him by saying because he is so athletic his D should be great, i would compare his D to others on the team, whats your thoughts about millers D? how much better do you think brewers D is than carney?
c) everyone has off nights but im not gonna lie i havent been able to see alot of games but i have been able to see parts of probably 40 games at work, one time i saw carney do about the quickest cross over, he left his guy way behind him and finished with a dunk. i know it was only once and theres no big deal if he can only do it once but i would like to think the ability to do that more is in him somewhere. also i think the wolves need more athleticism, its seems like the majority of them have minimal athleticism
d) he only averages like 10 minutes in games where he 1 or 2 3 attempts. do you think he has about the most potential of anyone on the team? with how bad they are i would think it would be helpful to play him more and see if we can get more out of him

by Gophers12 on Mar 27, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

we agree

I think… on the fact that if Carney is cheap, we should bring him back. Of course, we have to ask ourselves, why aren’t other teams very interested in him?

You make solid points.

Carney’s defense is probably better than Miller’s. I think Brewer’s defense is substantially better than Carney’s. As in, in a different league. I have no stats to back this up.

Carney has physical gifts that Randy Foye does not have. All else equal (smarts, technique), he should be a better defender.

I have no idea what is going on with Mike Miller’s shooting this year. But looking at his career, he’s a better shooter than Carney.
If Carney picks up a killer cross-over and can get to the basket, he would be dangerous.

The wolves desperately need more athleticism. The question is can they do better than Carney? For example, what if they can get Marvin Williams from the Hawks. Should they still keep Carney? I don’t know the answer to that question, but it will depend on how much better and more expensive Williams is than Carney. [and also on Williams’ back]
Hopefully, if they keep him, the wolves have private information on him (as in, they know and understand his true potential better than other teams do) and can help him develop into a better player.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have an alternative suggestion...

Why aren’t we keeping guys like Carney as 10th guys instead of Mad Dog/Collins/etc.? The reason I say this is because they should take the approach that spots 10-15 should be younger players who offer something but need work. Ric Bucher said something interesting on the B.S. Report a few weeks ago: good players don’t listen to the advice of vets unless the vet can still produce. Basically, I take that to mean that any vets a team has should be in the top 9 of the rotation. After that, a guy like Carney would seem to be a good fit as someone who doesn’t play every night but can step in when there’s an injury.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 27, 2009 12:29 PM CDT reply actions  

the short answer

is that unless Glen Taylor buys out Collins, Madsen, etc. we are stuck with them, so they sorta have to be the end of the bench. But as these contracts finally (!) come to an end, we will see what happens.

And related to the conversation above, I think Carney would be a good 10th man at this point in his career. If he ever became a solid defender, decent passer, reasonable ball handler, and a reliable 3 point threat, he could be a valuable contributor (8th or 9th guy) on a playoff team.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

if we are going to buy those guys out

I’d rather fill the roster with 4 draft picks and see who wins the battles than another year of Rodney Carney. He’s proven himself to be a decent streak shooter, but I don’t think he’s going to leap to anything more than that.

by Pants_ on Mar 27, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

In defense of Thabeet

First off, he picked the game up later in life than the players he’s being compared to. He will need more time to develop a complete game (Ok, he’ll never be great on offense, but I think he will still improve some).

Second, did anyone watch this guy as a Freshman? He’s improved A TON since then. There is no reason to think that he’s going to suddenly stop improving. When evaluating upper classmen for the draft, I like to look at their numbers since their freshman year to see if they are still on an improvement trajectory. This guy has improved every year. And the only reason his block numbers have come down a bit is because teams have stopped challenging him as much.

Third, how has Joel Pryzbilla’s offense been? Oh yeah, he only takes about 3 shots a game. The horror! Oh, and his net On/Off for the Blazers is a +3.5, which means he is a difference maker for that squad. But I guess they can get away with that since he gets to play next to LMA…..Kinda like Love or Jefferson would always play next to Thabeet. And in the games I’ve watched Thabeet, they do not leave him alone on offense. He has gotten much better over the years rolling to the hoop for passes over the top for easy dunks or layups.

Fourth, people love to point out the couple of occasions where Thabeet’s man got the better of him, without regard to the games where he brings the entire opposing team’s offense to it’s knees. It’s not just about his one-on-one matchups, but how he impacts the entire opposing offense. And when his man does get the best of him, it’s the exception, not the rule. People just tend to remember those games better because of the fact he is so dominant defensively. He has forced most of his one-on-one matchups into pretty poor games.

Fifth, how does a guy that averages 10+ rebounds, 10+ points, and 4+ blocks a game disappear? Kinda like DeRozan disappeared at times this season? Or James Harden? Or Earl Clark? Or Jeff Teague? I think we expect so much out of him because of his incredible size. He will never be a Shaq or Hakeem. But he can eventually be a rich man’s version of Sammy Dalembert, and that is incredibly valuable to most teams.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 27, 2009 1:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Solid.

A few things in response:

1- Pryz is what he is. He is at his best when he carries a high reb% and this has a lot to do with how well he sweeps the defensive glass. In his 3 best years, he’s above 24.5% on the dreb glass. Everything else is sub 20, sometimes by a lot. He also is asked to do nothing on offense, but that doesn’t mean he’s incapable or has to be hidden. He keeps his man planted and if they double away he’s more than capable to make the catch and shoot/dunk/whatever. Pryz is actually pretty decent in this role. He’s averaging 2.07 points/possession this year, meaning that when he does get the ball, he’s making his shot, getting to the line (22% of his shots land him there), or converting an and-1 (16 times out of 232 shots). Granted, it’s still NCAA ball, but in terms of type of play I think this can be used. Thabeet averages 1.23 points/poss. I don’t know where to go to find out and-1 and foul data, but somewhere along the line he’s not making the most of his touches like Pryz. Could he get there? Of course, but right now I think it is highly unlikely that he could perform at the level of the Vanilla Gorilla in an NBA offense. Pryz makes the most of what is asked of him, he can play man defense, he has decent fundamentals, and does not kill his team on offense.

2- I don’t deny that Thabeet can change a college game. In the middle of a zone he can really deter 6’5 college forwards and such but will this transfer into a league with different rules? This is where I simply don’t know. Whatever he turns into, his value will mostly be rebounding or defense. Does he have the skills to make these things work at the NBA level? I’m worried about the defensive side of things. I’d really like to know that whoever has been scouting him has looked at 1-on-1 situations and how he rebounds.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes, solid

I’d like to discuss the second and fourth points made by Rascal Flatts. I agree with points 1, 3, and 5, subject to s-n-p’s concerns about the Pryzbilla comparisons.

2. yes, Thabeet has improved tremendously. But so have most other players, including Cole Aldrich. Granted, Thabeet did not grow up playing the game, but improvement (even quite impressive improvement) is not rare among those with Thabeet’s level of physical talent.

4. Another question to ask if where hasn’t Thabeet improved and why? For example, I’ve only watched him a few times, but he doesn’t seem to box out very well if at all. Against Purdue he really relied on his height to grab rebounds. This is why it is so valuable to see him against larger players. Maybe he only boxes out when he needs to? I just don’t know. But yes, we shouldn’t harp too much on specific negative performances, but rather on specific habits or ways of playing the game that will hinder him at the NBA level.

The Dalembert comparison is interesting. He appears to be a great shot blocker but maddeningly inconsistent in the rest of his game. But, suppose this Dalembert comparison were true. Is he worth the fifth pick in the draft? Maybe.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aldrich

improved in minutes played, but his per minute rebounding and blocks numbers are about the same. Keep in mind he was behind Sasha Kaun and Darrell Arthur at KU. No way was Self going to play Aldrich ahead of two established guys like that. And by the way, when he did get important minutes in last year’s tourney, he was very impressive. I think he was a stud-in-waiting on a really deep team, whereas Thabeet was a fish out of water as a frosh and has improved since then.

I agree he has a poor defensive stance and doesn’t block out well. Of course, I could name about umpteen NBAers that don’t block out all that well and still get their’s on the boards.

All of that being said, I agree that Aldrich or Thabeet could be a stretch with our lotto pick given how starved we are for a big time guard/wing.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 27, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

thanks for the stats on Aldrich.

I had not looked at the per minute numbers.
It’s difficult to know how much Thabeet will improve. You are correct that he might have more potential for improvement than Aldrich given his relative newness to the game.

I wonder if there’s a list of centers who were new to the game. Olajuwan was new to the game he turned out pretty well. There must be other less famous centers, more along the lines of Thabeet, that we could think about. Perhaps get an idea of the probability of NBA serviceability.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

replying with myself...

Just to show my bias, let’s compare Hasheem’s freshman year stats with the freshmen year stats of one Shawn Bradley. Unfortunately, we can’t compare their college stats from any other year because Mr. Bradley was on Mormon Mission.

But, given that Mr. Bradley was a somewhat serviceable NBA center who earned a big contract, maybe he would have improved as much as Thabeet, or maybe not, or maybe this is just an awful comparison.

Thabeet-freshmen year
Mpg 24.6
Fg% 55.4%
pts 9.8
rbs 10.4
blks 6.1
Tos 2.6
fga/gm 6.4
fta/gm 3.7

Bradley -freshmen year
Mpg 28.9
Fg% 51.8%
Pts 14.8
Rbs 7.7
blks 5.2
tos 2.3
fga/gm 10.62
fta/gm 5.4

Besides height and a bit of build, these players actually aren’t that similar. But, whatever, I had fun doing this.

Bradley was featured much more on offense than Thabeet and took a lot more shoots per game and also go to the line a lot more. Thabeet looks like the better rebounder.

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

excellent stuff guys

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's an interesting comparison

As much as Thabeet has high-center-of-gravity issues, they were even more acute with Mr. Bradley. I think he ends up somewhere in the Diop-Dalembert-Motumbo progression. I just don’t know where…..

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 27, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Continued defense

Pryz is also a 29 year old Center that is at the top of his game as a pro. Look at his efficiency ratios earlier on in his career; I’m not sure he was quite as effective. Now if we have to wait that long for Thabeet to develop, I’ll admit it would be a problem. But I think after a year or two he could become a big time difference maker. Heck, Thabeet is already a better free throw shooter than Pryz.

As far as Thabeet’s game-changing capability, none of us know for sure how that will translate to the NBA. But based on a rather huge sample size of games I’ve watched, this guy is a shot blocking savant. For whatever awkwardness he shows on offense, he is an absolutely gifted shotblocker. I think if you look at his ratio of PFs to Blks, this bears out what I’m saying. You have to have some natural ability and incredible agility to be able to block that many shots while keeping the fouls down. And he’s not just doing this against undersized PF/C’s in college. He’s doing it against some pretty quick guards that think they have an open lane to the rim, only to have him swoop in to wipe away their layup. I think this stuff translates.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 27, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

however likely or unlikely

if Thabeet is available at the #5 and the wovles don’’t pick him, the wolves will be kicking themselves for years if Thabeet finds himself more on the Dalembert-Mutumbo side of the progression rather than on the Diop-Dalembert side.

This is why I wish Sam Presti was running our draft. Granted we have the sample size of 2 drafts on presti…

by littleboxes on Mar 27, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good stuff

Good stuff everyone, especially the comments. We’ve been talking about Thabeet pretty in-depth here:

http://www.twolvesblog.com/forum/minnesota-timberwolves-den/30129-hasheem-thabeet.html

by College Wolf on Mar 27, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions  

excellent

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I may be OK with the Priz comparison

In fact, he may be the best comparison in terms of upside for thabeet. But remember Priz played only one season and he was drafted 9th (which has considerably less value than 5th, where we would draft now). And that wasn’t a stellar draft either (Mike Miller: ROY). Here was the top 10 from that year:

1. Kmart
2. Stromile Swift
3. Darius Miles
4. Marcus Fizer
5. Mike Miller
6. DeMar Johnson
7. Mhim
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Priz
10. Keyon Dooling

Not exactly a distinguished bunch. And Mark Madsen went 29 (last pick in the 1st, thanks to the Joe Smith deal). The 1st pick in the 2nd round was the classic “Stash the Euro for a few more years”: one Marco Jaric. Yikes.

No disrespect to Thabeet, but I think we have do better, assuming we have a top 5 pick.

by Sterno on Mar 27, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depending upon where Washington picks...

I think our best bet will be swapping first rounders and taking on the contract of Brendan Haywood straight up. In theory it would give us the chance to draft Rubio/or a wing in demand, and we’d also get haywood for a year. Even though Haywood;s 6 million dollar salary isn’t nice, he could fit in nicely next to Big Al and Love.

by Blakeley on Mar 27, 2009 5:17 PM CDT reply actions  

I think Blair is way too short to be a productive pro player. I’m high on Thabeet, since he dominates one end of the floor and is serviceable on the other. That’s more than just about every player in this weak draft class can say. Blair is worth a flier for a team that needs a power forward in the late 1st/early 2nd. If he measures at 6’5" with no shoes, it might take longer than that.

I noticed in a Chad Ford article that Mullens has already declared for the draft, because of financial needs for his family or something. If he goes the DeAndre route of falling way too far for an athletic 7-footer, I hope we pounce on it, rather than look stupid again when he’s blocking 6 shots against us as a rookie.

by Andy G on Mar 27, 2009 6:55 PM CDT reply actions  

I will not say that Mullens is a no go...

…based on an article I read, but the bad ones just keep on popping up:

Without specifically mentioning him by name, Thad Matta rips B.J. Mullens and gives us a pretty good idea about what he will tell NBA GMs when they call him looking for background info this spring. From the blog of Doug Lesmerises of the Cleveland Plain Dealer:

“I think you’re beginning to see that becoming a trend in the NBA, just taking young guys and saying maybe eventually he’ll be a good player,” Matta said several weeks ago. “The same flaws he’s going to have in college he’s going to have in the NBA. And some teams just draft on, ‘We think maybe this could be a really good player someday.’ But I think flaws are flaws – just because you’re in the NBA doesn’t mean they’re going to go away. The great ones that do go to school for one year, they get the job done while they’re there.”

There is nothing new here really, but still surprising to see Matta so open with his criticism. Anyone that has followed B.J. Mullens over the past few years would tell you that: a) he’s not very productive (because he’s just not that good right now), and b) he has some serious red-flags related to his work ethic and background that leave major question marks about he’ll ever be able to come close to reaching his full potential.

Although Mullens is rumored to be intense discussions with a number of well-known agents, he needs to be careful and do some research about what happened to DeAndre Jordan in last year’s draft. They appear to be some similarities there that could potentially drop him to the second round if NBA teams get too scared off.

The guy had some terrible production numbers. Awful, no good numbers. Combine that with a coach who threw him under the bus and reports about attitude-related red flags, and here’s hoping that the Wolves do their homework if they decide to think about him and/or pick him.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

very legit concerns...

unless he’s your 4th first rounder of the same draft. I think we could be in a great position to take a flier with the Boston or even Utah pick. Matta is bitter, just like the A&M guy who bashed Jordan was, last year. I have no clue if Mullens will pan out, but like I said last year with DJ, athletic 7-footers don’t fall to the 2nd Round very often.

by Andy G on Mar 27, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

i agree...

….you don’t see them fall that often. And if they do, there’s usually a good reason. Matta didn’t say anything like this with Koufos (that I remember) or Oden.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 27, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’m sure Mullens is not ready and if he were smart, like Thabeet, he’d learn how to play before he declares. But—it’s just as easy to learn in the NBA as it is in college (see Rashard Lewis, Jermaine O’Neal, Andrew Bynum, etc) and like the case with Jordan, it’s a smart investment with a pick outside the lottery.

by Andy G on Mar 28, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Aldrich

I don’t see how Thabeet is better than Cole Aldrich at all. Watching him today, he’s so big, active, and fundamentally sound I don’t see how we can pass on him unless we have one of the top two picks. True centers do not come along very often. He looks better than Brooke Lopez every looked to me, when you take into account Aldrich’s good defense and rebounding.

by princelyfrank on Mar 27, 2009 11:14 PM CDT reply actions  

hmmm

i know theres no place on the team for another 6-10 unathletic guy white guy and i wouldnt draft him but has anyone been atleast a little impressed with goran suton? and after basically out playing cole aldrich what would you think of him if he out plays hasheem thabeet?

by Gophers12 on Mar 30, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions  

I wonder...

….if he gets a look in the 2nd round.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 31, 2009 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

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