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Glen Taylor for Sameness

Papa Glen has his own campaign poster for the potential David Kahn hire:

 

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Comments

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Expectations

Since the Wolves traded KG have they really underperformed expectations?

What should the expected win-total been for a team without its best player for half the season?

Does the Front-Office deserve to be purged after making generally quite solid moves since the rebuild?

If hiring someone from the Spurs is the proven path to greatness- Why not hire PJ as the Head Coach? I can’t imagine general Basketball philosophy is that different between Coaching Staff and Front-Office. As far as connections wasn’t Chris Wallace hired by the Grizz upon the recommendation of Jerry West?

If Oklahoma City is so great why did they lose 7 of their last 12 games by more than 17 points? Why not purge their Front-Office since they started their rebuild the same summer as the T-Wolves with more lottery luck?

I’m not trying to be prickly- rather wondering ‘if some are being a tad overdramatic regarding these happenings?’ I’m not trying to make the point Kahn/Hoiberg are going to be great nor Lindsay would be terrible. I’m just trying to look at this in as well-rounded a way as possible.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 8:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Answers:

1- The expectation was that they could win with one of the greatest players of not all time. There aren’t that many expectations after the trade and that’s part of the problem.

2- The team had 1 solid month. A much discussed-about month but the rest of the season was a disaster, both before and after the injury.

3- The benefit of getting someone from the Spurs is to get their insight on the front office infrastructure. Coaching is a whole other ballgame.

4- Because OKC appears to have a plan that is based more on results that can be reproduced instead of whoever happens to catch McHale’s fancy. They are also a superior defensive team with 2 potential superstars. They have also shown willingness to bring in necessary complimentary parts.

I appreciate the well-rounded approach. I really do. I just think that hiring Kahn is a clear signal to fans that nothing is really going to change. From personnel decisions to practice facilities to whatever else you can think of, they didn’t bring in someone from the best organization in basketball because they wanted to maintain a large chunk of the status quo on a 24 win team squad with significant flaws and a long history of dysfunction.

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by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 9:15 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

A few quibbles

1. One thing that really stood out during the January streak was the improved play of Kevin Love and rebounding numbers. To say the Wolves aren’t placing emphasis in reproducable skills I ask “Isn’t rebounding a reproducable skill?” When you’re giving 36 minutes a night to 2 Top 10 in the League rebounders in Big Al and Kevin Love- Doesn’t this skill really improve your chances of winning?

If you play Mike Miller and Corey Brewer with these guys- you really have a nice rebounding team which should make up for some defencies in Shooting and Defense.

Another fairly reproducable skill is Interior Scoring which say what you will about Rhino and Al they can provide on a somewhat consistent basis. When teams lack this skill- they tend to go through brutal offense droughts- (I.E. Chicago Bulls).

2. Considering the Talent on the Roster- did they really underachieve after the injury? In the Wash. Game Wrap- you’re expectation was for less than 5 wins (They won 7). They came in right around the WOW prediction around the time that Al went down. I have a hard time seeing the disaster here considering the circumstances.

3. There’s no point in arguing about further about the Thunder. It’s always going to come down this year to debating “Potential” vs “Performance”. I should point out the Thunder only had 2 months even approaching .500. OKC also didn’t have the injuries the Wolves dealt with- I apologize in advance to Desmond Mason.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is all about $$$$

SNP,

Kahn would be a cheap hire who will keep most of the current staff (who, I might add, are contracted for next year) in place. This represents a very low additional dollars expenditure for Taylor.

A Kahn hire will very likely bring McHale back for one more year of coaching. At that point, all the “guys” (except Kahn) will be free agents. Only at that point would I see a major reorganization.

The person I know inside is pretty comfortable with the Kahn choice. The staff is quite prepared for the off season (provided Taylor does not balk at $$$$ should certain trade scenarios present themselves)

by Just A Fan on May 7, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"Everybody in for one more year"

would make sense, what with the odds for a work stoppage in 2010 at better than 50/50 (Shoddy’s on-court play this season showed he’s already getting a head start).

by PoorDick on May 7, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Jerry Z alluded to

Was that Kahn could potentially be brought in as the ax-man—essentially to cut out every non-essential staff, coach, etc. etc. of the franchise, perhaps as preface to prepping the franchise for sale. Freddy Mayor would take over personnel duties in this arrangement.

I’m not sure how I feel about this. The only somewhat sensible conclusion I can come to is that the problems with the TWolves begin with Glen Taylor, and so the idea of new ownership (as much of a mixed bag as that might be) is somewhat appealing. Although then we’d probably start hearing how they’d need new facilities or they’ll move, blah blah blah. But I don’t know if gutting the franchise is the best move either. It’s like the gameplan here is to just stall on making a decision for another year, irregardless of the product on the court or the opportunities present this year and next (the draft/free agency and the current assets on the roster). I’m just not sure how long this window to really do something will be open.

by biggity2bit on May 7, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do wonder....

….if Taylor has let Stern know that he doesn’t have the cash/stomach/will/whatever to own this team beyond a 2-3 year window and that this is the first step in that direction. If that’s the case, then sign me up for OKC fandom. They can’t waste this off season and the next.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Prepping for a sale"

Probably not. But Stern’s involvement in all this reveals that there’s more to this than just wins and losses. My guess is that Glen sees how long it takes to get a new stadium/arena deal done, and wants to get in line behind the Vikings for a new Acme Arena. Kahn Man’s legal background and experience in Indiana, Portland, and the NBDL would make him a good candidate to be the unpopular pointman in the process.

by PoorDick on May 7, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not for a new stadium....

…but it’s hard not to notice how well a new building could work with the new Twins stadium. There is really an opportunity for a fantastic place there. Again, do not want, but it’s interesting.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

New Stadium

I think the Target Center’s a pretty nice place to take in a game. I doubt a New Arena is in the works just cause “How would they sell seats to the thing?”- considering the issues at Target Center. I also don’t see Political Support at all for this thing. Perhaps down the line- but not until the on-court product improves.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no

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by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's your take

I’ve never heard a sports organization state that their current long-held location is just fine, so please, go spend the taxpayer money on something that serves more than the millionaire players and billionaire owners.

by PoorDick on May 7, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This new take

Is growing serious legs for me. I am beginning to wonder just how much is going on behind the scenes about the future of this franchise with this owner that we have no idea about. I would not at all be surprised now if a major bombshell or two is dropped on us this summer, at completely out of left field—something like Glen’s selling the team, we’re trading Al/Love, they need a new stadium, we’re being contracted or moved, etc. Something is going on, and it explains the eery quiet of the last few weeks (at least in my mind), as well as the seeming involvement of David Stern. If this was just about hiring a GM, there would be more leaks and less secrecy, and I think we would be hearing more pre-marketing hoopla rumors about the direction, coach, etc.

I don’t know, there’s a definite Mississippi riverstink surrounding all of this. I just wonder what it is.

by biggity2bit on May 7, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That could be

But it could also be that we spend more time agonizing over all this than the Wolves front office does.

by PoorDick on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

With a lack of any further information...

… we slowly become more paranoid. Roswell. The Kennedy Assassination. The Wolves GM Hunt. All one in the same.

by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on May 7, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You Do Wonder

If a Sale is the last thing that we want?

Seriously considering the Fan Support “What would the chances be the team moves to Kansas City?”

Would someone local really want to step-up and buy the team? Does this team have way more value somewhere else?

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One candidate

Would be the Pohlad family. I know the chances of that happening are about the same as discovering life on Venus, but at least you would have competent ownership group. And imagine the possibilities of controlling both of those venues downtown, year round? Not bad, not bad.

by biggity2bit on May 7, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pohlad

Three Kids plus Inheritance Tax equals way less money.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

extra points..

…for not calling it the death tax ;)

It’s karmic payback for Carl putting the knife into the Twin Cities’ rail car system.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hear ya..

….and that’s pretty much what we’ve heard from folks who talk to us. It’s not just the personnel that would have cost Glen money. From the facilities to the basketball operations, Lindsey would have cost a decent amount of change…probably almost as much as 1/2 of 1 year of Marko. Sorry, the cynic in me couldn’t keep quiet for that entire thought. Here’s what I wrote a while back about this subject:

Hoopus Prediction:

Kevin McHale will remain at the head of the bench and Ron/Fred/Jim will man the front office with input from the head coach. The Pat Reusse conspiracy theory here is that as long as McHale is employed by this club he will have the last say on personnel matters. I think it is clear that those days are over. Papa Glen kicked McHale out of the front office and told him (explicitly or not) to coach or else. This year’s draft is very important and bringing in a new GM would raise numerous schedule and logistical challenges. There is something to be said about continuity, even in down times.

Hoopus Prescription:

If the Wolves continue improving both their record and personnel development Kevin McHale should be retained and the front office trio should be allowed to operate throughout the draft and free agency provided that McHale’s role is reduced to that of what Minnesota coaches have enjoyed in the past. If McHale is going to atone for what he did to Dwane Casey, then he should be treated like Mr. Casey when it comes to the duties of his old job. We have talked about bringing in a real GM quite a bit here at Hoopus but if pressed to make an actual change, the twin constraints of time and continuity make a practical change in this particular off-season (which just happens to be the most important off-season in team history; a make-or-break culmination of both the KG and Mayo trades) a tough proposition. Like it or not this is the crew that is going to see this thing through and that fact will not change. The time to make the change was at the firing of Witt. It didn’t happen and this group, for better or worse, is what fans will have to deal with this off-season.

….that was my head talking. I’m pretty sure my heart disagrees.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

apparently

the Wolves have a one year plan. Great.

Jose, I agree if you look only at the last two years it’s difficult to indict the Twolves organization. They totally screwed up with Wittman, but OKC apparently screwed up with PJ. We can quibble about the Brewer pick, but that’s not important.

The frustration, at least on my end, comes from the bad management over the past decade.
We can argue about whether or not the surge worked, but I don’t think that means we have to agree that the surge working implies that the Bush team should stay in charge of Iraq. Sure, Hoiberg didn’t exactly drive the team in the ditch, but he’s learning from the guy who did!

As S-n-p has pointed out, there really wouldn’t be much risk to hiring Lindsay. He’s learned from people who had success, why not give him a shot?

by littleboxes on May 7, 2009 10:04 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Guys

Taylor is a good businessman and, like every good businessman, is limiting his expenses during a down economy. He has approved $$$$ being spent on players that he feels are worthy (Jefferson contract, salary pick up in the Miller trade) and a sure thing. But he has not idly thrown dollars around (allow Collins contract to expire) or taken chances on less than sure things. That, by the way, is the whole Lindsay conundrum. Lindsay wanted $$$$ (for himself and a FO make over) based on being a successful GM where as Taylor saw him as being an unproven GM. Taylor did not want to commit the millions of $$$ (to Lindsay, his new FO, paying off the current FO) that it would have taken. I don’t blame him one bit.

Taylor loves owning the team – it is not for sale.

The part that is curious to me is that Kahn really offers no better upside than letting Freddy take a shot. And that would be even less $$$$.

by Just A Fan on May 7, 2009 12:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The catch...

..is that good business doesn’t equal good basketball. They can overlap at times but they are not attached at the hip. Lindsey works for the best organization in basketball and they may do things that require money to be spent. The question now is who is right in terms of a cost benefit calculation: Do fans trust Taylor to make the correct choice as to what it takes to field a winning franchise (without a once-in-a-lifetime player) or do they trust someone from an organization that does about as much right as possible? Ultimately, no matter how anyone looks at this situation (financially or otherwise) it comes down to having to decide which individual has the better grasp on what it takes to build a winning franchise in terms of cost/benefit: Taylor or Lindsey. If Taylor didn’t want to spend the money, he is clearly saying that Lindsey + a new front office does not equal Kahn + Hoiberg/Stack. While there is a business aspect to all of this, eventually it has to play out on the basketball court and that’s where I do not trust this group or status quo. From a fan’s perspective, and without knowing all of the inside details, it’s hard to square the circle that Taylor seems to be pitching. Again, I completely get the situation they are in and my head tells me that keeping Hoiberg/Stack as the main basketball decision makers for the sake of continuity is a good thing but having come this close to something that has needed to happen for so long (an outside voice) my heart says otherwise.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As hinted at above, isn't it possible that Kahn comes in as a president responsible for business operations

While Hoiberg takes over basketball operations. So Kahn’s job would be to attract sponsors, sell suites and seats, get a good broadcasting situation, etc. while formally being the head honcho?

We had a similar screwed up situation in Portland with Paul Allen losing money and contemplating to sell the team. Then he fired the GM Nash in 2006 and Patterson as President shortly thereafter, brought in Larry Miller as President (former head of Nike Jordan Brand) and Pritchard as GM in 2007. For a while we even had a COO due to the ownership structure on top.

 I could see a similar lineup with the Wolves.

by Norsktroll on May 7, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thinking further about it Pritchard and Hoiberg share quite a lot of similarities in their careers so far. Pritchard is an ex player, was made director of player personnel in 2004 in Portland, briefly interims head coach, then assistant GM, then GM.

by Norsktroll on May 7, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I'm missing the part..

….where Hoiberg did his time in San Antonio or any other successful organization.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth

I think he started a couple games when the Wolves were away at S.A.

And while down there, they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

by PoorDick on May 7, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

still..

…it’s experience outside of what is locally known as the country club. danny ferry did the same thing.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in all honesty..

…i don’t think he will do a terrible job. i think he could actually be good. i’m more upset that they didn’t get a new infrastructure in the basketball operations department. after all these years of wanting chance they came close enough where you could smell it yet still backed away. my head tells me they are making the right decision at this point in time if hoiberg is allowed to continue forward with their current assets…which, for the most part, have been played correctly since the trade.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kahn

1. If Kahn is a financial guru the move makes sense. Taylor doesn’t trust Fred to understand all the cap implications of his moves (a good assumption to be working on).

2. As for the moving the team conspiracy, Kahn has been trying for years to get a baseball team in Portland. Given his wife’s love for Portland why not meet the new Seattle Supersonics! I’m not saying this happens today, but Stern loves to give his friend’s franchises so they can move them (see Thuder, Okla City and Bennet, Clay).

by littleboxes on May 7, 2009 12:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Pro-Front Office

The most positive change in the last few years has been the Contracts the Wolves have signed players. Gomes, Smith, Telfair, and Big Al by giving reasonable money with reasonable length or team options. Although it’s a lot easier to overpay role players (Hassell, T-Hud) on good teams. These contracts show some ability to properly evaluate your own players.

They also seemed to have the right idea as far as pursuing Captain Kirk to pair with Foye as to the type of guard you would want to pair with Randy. They were also pretty smart to wait not knowing what opportunites could be ahead this summer or next year.

The fact that they have come out ahead on several straight trades. Granted none of these trades have involved major salary acquistions but still.

These are examples as Just a Fan pointed to that the Front-Office has some idea as to what they need to do going forward.

I realize it’s hard to just remove the time frame of 2004-2007 from one’s mind. It’s also possible that the FO learned over time and adjusted accordingly. It’s also possible that Fred Hoiberg is Kevin Prichard to Kevin McHale’s John Nash.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 2:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the rub..

…with your first point is that where else are those guys (outside of Big Al) going to sign for anything more? I also think the words “pairing with Randy” automatically delegate the team to the 2nd or 3rd level of the NBA. Hoiberg is a nice player but he’d be even nicer next to someone not named Foye. They needed someone new from a successful franchise. Instead it looks like they’re getting Stern’s D-League henchman who has been out of the league for years. In the grand scheme of things, this team’s basketball operations team has been a failure. The Toine and Carney trades were nice but this team still owes a 1st rounder for Marko. They got their Wally pick back because of the KG trade. They sold a valuable 2nd rounder for a 2nd rounder in a weaker draft. We’ve yet to see how they will use any of their bigger assets. What does David Kahn have to do with these sorts of things? These are basketball operations problems.

The only thing that can square this circle for me is if Taylor comes out and says that Hoiberg has been pushing for specific things over the past few years that were at odds with McHale and that over time he grew to understand that Hoiberg knew what he was doing and could do the job better than McHale. This will never happen because it would require McHale, Foye, Brewer, and McCants to be thrown under the bus. Hell, I’d accept something along the lines of "Fred has been advocating many of the same things as Lindsey and these do represent a new way forward and we made the decision that we had an acceptable in-house alternative who just needed to be given more responsibility and trust. " Instead, we’re going to have to gear up for Blueprint 3.0. The official website will come out with some flash presentation about how things are different than last year and…well, we’ve been through this dance before. They don’t know if McHale is the answer at coach, if he’ll stay or not, whether or not they’ll have their own pick in 2010, whether Big Al can come back from injury, whether Brewer can come back from injury….I’m not sure there is anything worth defending in terms of basketball operations. Yes, there are some nice things and they could make the most out of it, but this is still a team that has blown 3 of the last 4 drafts, owes a 1st rounder to a team that is worse than it is, has 2 possible late 1st round picks that are hard to use, a broken best player, no real starting point guard, no real starting small forward, no decent size, and no decent athleticism. They have repeatedly made the wrong decisions with coaches and personnel. From a strictly basketball operations perspective, if Kahn is the guy, then the sale they need to make is what in the hell is going to change with Hoiberg on the BO side of things.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

whoops..

…heinrich is a nice player, not hoiberg.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll just say

 1. Considering where this roster was at the time of the KG Trade their has been clear progress. At this time there was one clear NBA starter- who they traded. Now they have Big Al and Love along with some decent complimentary pieces.

2. I still hold out hope for Brewer going forward. It should be noted in a limited sample size- he greatly improved his plus/minus from the previous year. He also seemed to show some signs of improvement as a shooter. If he improves as a shooter considering his defense, he’s a valuable NBA player. My hope is he’s starting at either the 2 or 3 as Early as next season.

3. I didn’t make any endorsement of Foye as a 2 going forward. I think I’ve made mulitple posts about my desire for Josh Childress. I just used the Hinrich example as a sign of the Front-Office knowing how to compliment who they have on the roster.

by Jose Cordoba on May 7, 2009 3:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Favre can be our GM?

SnP, I would hardly say Brewer is a blown draft pick. An uncertainity? yes, but not a blown pick. If he is able to come back healthy and regain his confidence he will be a very positive player for us. Brewer has only played with Wittman as his coach. I think he would have excelled when Mchale opened things up. We know the kid can defend, we know he can rebound. He brings athletic ability and even as a struggling rookie he was one of our better players at getting into the paint. Hardly a blown pick.

by revprodeji on May 7, 2009 3:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

will give left leg of crunch...

….for noah or thad young.

The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on May 7, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jose I missed your pt.2. Glad to see I am not the only believer in Brewer.

by revprodeji on May 7, 2009 3:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Noah is a hustle guy and a headcase. Earlier in the year Chi fans would have given him away for Crunch’s leg.

Thad is becoming a very nice scorer, but is still a tweener fwd with defensive issues. Lets see Brewer get healthy, get a real coach and pg and enjoy.

by revprodeji on May 7, 2009 5:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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