Rubio on Record
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 8:56 AM CDT
121 comments
I don't talk all that much about my real life on this blog but I do want to bring up something to provide a bit of context about one of the most notable aspects of the entire Rubio circus that will continue to develop over the course of the off-season. Since it is largely a media critique, I will put the rest of the post below the fold so those of you who don't want to read it don't have to stare at a long and boring semi-rant.
I used to dabble in a business where developing, maintaining, defending, attacking, and manipulating broad narratives was an important tool of the trade. For those of you not familiar with modern communication techniques, let me boil it down to this: People process information by relaying bits and pieces of data into easily recognizable patterns. Much like how your brain adds information to the light gathered by your eye in order to process, say, the visual image of an apple (your eye doesn't operate like a video camera; much of the information contained in what you "see" is actually filled in by your brain), your noggin is very good at taking ideas, social trends, memes and narratives and placing them into easily recognizable patterns that you can then access, process, and use in a functional manner.
In short hand, when you blubber like a baby during the catch-with-dad scene in Field of Dreams, you are activating a narrative in your brain that works as a short cut to a particular emotion and response. If you really think about it, watching two grown men throw a ball in a corn field in Iowa isn't enough to set off the sprinklers. There are many other ideas at play here and it would be impractical for your mind to walk you through the process in a linear fashion.
You see, your brain is a busy place and it is constantly processing enormous amounts of information. It has to have some sort of mechanism that allows it to cut corners, bridge gaps and allow you to function as something more than a drooling idiot. Enter the activation of narratives.
While this little ditty is an indispensable function to help you through your day, it is also something that is surprisingly easy to manipulate by those who are either lazy, imbued with a touch of evil, or some combination of both. It is especially useful in getting people to give you things or to buy what you are selling. All you really need to know in order to do this is to take issue A, B, or C and frame it in such a way as to activate the appropriate response. Take Jesse Helms for instance.
For those of you who have seen the movie The Hangover, you are now familiar with the drunken comedy of Zach Galifinakis. What you may not know is that he is the nephew of Nick Galifinakis, a liberal congressman from North Carolina who ran against Helms in the 1972 Senate race. Helms defeated Galifinakis with the campaign slogan of "Jesse Helms: He's one of us!" Thanks to the wonderfully progressive culture of 1972 North Carolina and the evolution of our amazing brain, funny-sounding foreign name + not one of us = Helms4evah!. Again, this stuff is easy if you're evil.
Getting around to the lazy part of the equation, activating narratives is a wonderful way of taking conscious short cuts through sticky wickets. I myself plead guilty to doing this on a frequent basis. When I'm losing an argument with my lovely wife, I simply pull the "boy, you're just like your mom" card and sit back and watch the years and years of emotional childhood-based wreckage ease itself into the drivers seat and motor on down the road. You see, it's very hard to win an argument with that smart of a woman and I'd much rather activate...well, perhaps I should have used this example in the evil column. Moving on...
What does all of this have to do with basketball and Our Beloved Puppies? Well, to put it simply: National sports media is filled to the brim with lazy devils. From Draft Express to True Hoop to the New York Daily News, opinion peddlers around the country are taking the words Ricky Rubio and Minnesota Timberwolves and plugging them into a tried-but-true narrative that, funny, is amazingly popular with a national audience. Here's how it works:
1- Write a story that contains one or several of the following statements:
Sources tell us that Rubio thinks Minnesota is too cold. They think that Rubio believes the Wolves are not close to winning. People close to the situation tell us that Rubio was going to be fine with the pick but that the selection of Jonny Flynn changed everything. GMs from around the league tell me that had a coach been in the draft room, Kahn never would have picked a defensively inept back court pairing. Numerous league officials tell me that one of these players will have to go.
2- Sit back and enjoy as people combine seemingly reasonable and authoritative (and massively unsourced) opinions with the DYSFUNCTIONAL HISTORY OF THE MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES ®. Issue framed, narrative activated. (This narrative works because one of the most entertaining ideas of all is that Our Team may not be the best, but at least we're not as bad as those clowns. Everyone who doesn't like the clowns can relate.)
Let me be clear: I am in no way, shape, or form saying that it is unreasonable for someone like John Hollinger to opine that Ricky Rubio doesn't want to come to Minnesota because he thinks it is a basketball Hoth and David Kahn is his own personal Wampa. What I am saying is that if you are going to voice such an opinion, and you do so knowing full well that you are operating in the context of "there go those Timberwolves again", you are a colossal ass if you try to dress it up with the big-boy clothes of "sources," "league officials," "cave trolls," whatever. I get that you want your very important opinions to carry more weight, but how about actually sourcing your junk to people with first and last names? After all, Donnie Walsh and Dan Fagen surely have sources of their own, right?
Please, I beg of you: No more unnamed sources. How about setting some fairly basic standards about what types of information you are going to present. "I believe" or "I think" isn't all that hard to add to the beginning of a paragraph or sentence. Neither is telling a source to F-off if he wants you to carry his water. You can be as right as rain with your take, but you are going about it in a way that completely short-circuits the long-term credibility of both you and your outlet.
What are the details of the buyout? What is the time line? How about getting an interview with the Rubio family? Are there historical precedents for this young of a back court pairing being able to function at a reasonable level? Does the NBA need to allow its teams to be able to buyout European contracts? Is this a possibility? Did the Wolves draft Henk Norel to somehow help Rubio's team?
There are ways to get from, for instance, Rubio not showing up at the Wolves' press conference to he likely did so because the team drafted Jonny Flynn without resorting to slapping on a "sources tell me". It can be done.
Above and beyond the sourcing nonsense and the lack of searching for answers to the questions listed above, can we also stop framing this issue in the following narratives?
- Rubio just wants to end up in New York
- Rubio would be much better off financially in a big market
- Minnesota is cold
- Donnie Walsh is David Kahn's mentor
If you really sit down and think about it, these sentiments are meaningless gap-fillers. Lots of players want to be on the big stage. Of course there are more deals to be had in a huge city. Lots of places are cold. Lots of GMs earn their stripes under other active GMs. These things are not unique to this situation. Minnesota picked a kid who entered the draft and they don't have to apologize for things that are true but hardly unique.
So, in summary, let's agree to the following:
- No more unnamed sources. If you want to speculate about what is going on with the Rubio situation, say something like "I believe Flynn's selection really made it hard for Rubio to come over this year," instead of "Several GMs tell me that had the Wolves not drafted Flynn, Rubio would be much more likely to start the season in Minnesota." Also, even if you have a story with a legitimate logical progression (see this nearly wonderful post from Henry Abbott), a bad foundation is still a bad foundation and "sources tell me that GMs don't believe David Kahn" = a bad foundation. There is nothing wrong with expressing your own opinion.
- Please stop using the DYSFUNCTIONAL HISTORY OF THE MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES ® narrative. David Kahn 100% absolutely had to pick Rubio at 5. He is now trying to figure out how to make the situation best work for his team. We are less than 2 days removed from the draft and there are still several contractual issues that have to play themselves out with Rubio's contract.
That is all. We will return to our regular programming in the next post.
BTW: Here's a head-scratcher: Maybe I'm being somewhat disingenuous here. Perhaps this post is itself an attempt to reframe the dominant narrative by activating another narrative that is popular with people who read blogs. Is that what I'm doing? Has everything I've written been a gimmick? Could it be genuine and disingenuous at the same time? What say you?
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My sources tell me...
that was an interesting post.
by twolvesgm on Jun 27, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A very well thought out and written piece
I would say that the overwhelming sense I get is that the national sports media is being incredibly lazy, as you suggest. The failure to truly understand the contractual issues—or at least the disinterest in explaining them, the immediate assumptions about Minnesota, the refusal to consider that drafting Flynn actually improves Kahn’s leverage in once sense, and the fact that nobody seems to have been able to get to Fegan for quotes are all examples.
Of course, as you point out—we in the blog world WANT to see the sports media as lazy and disinterested in actual facts. We want to see them as interested in pushing certain easy and entertaining narratives.
What’s incredible to me is that I haven’t seen one piece that seriously fleshes out the buy-out issues and the related woes of Joventut, how realistic it is for him to return there under the circumstances, or even seriously considered his value to the Wolves and given a realistic assessment of what might be necessary to get a trade done.
by Eric in Madison on Jun 27, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree..
..it is astonishing that every national guy with a microphone or keyboard just says the buy-out is a problem without telling us why. REPORT something.
The best info I have seen is from, remarkably, Canis Hoopus poster cordobes on the other threads. Ricky’s team needs money and wants the buy-out cash. Ricky says to his local press ‘If I have to come back it is’ to his current team. Transfer fees even for Ricky won’t be near the buy-out. We drafted his teammate so we can give the team another 500K.
He’s coming. We and the Rubio’s are just negotiating how it is going to happen. It was never going to happen quickly – Ricky wants to pay as little as possible, the team wants as much as possible. I cannot believe Ricky, a good-looking, charismatic, jaw-dropping highlight reel with international fame isn’t going to get a few million a year in endorsements. Everybody loses if he stays in Spain. Everybody (well, not Bassy). There are situations where ‘Everybody loses’ is a feasible outcome, but this type of thing seems like Kahn’s specialty.
by CaliWolf on Jun 27, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope that Cordobes guy comes back. The native Spanish posters really have the best info. In the meantime I’m going to go do some digging on the RealGM international forums. They have a lot of Spanish guys who seem to know their Ricky-related stuff.
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm looking for interviews...
…surely he has to have a lot of them with the Spanish press over the last few days.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The realgm spanish guys are hard to work with. Just a heads up Xand1. Let me know who you talk to if you can get one to talk with you. You need to know their bias before hearing the piece.
by revprodeji on Jun 27, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. I haven’t been over that way for a while so I was just thinking of scoping out what’s up, but it sounds like that might not be a very fruitful endeavor. Just thinking they might know a bit more about his contract situation what with being plugged in to the local media.
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, but
I agree, but would contend that it takes lazy readers/listeners to complete the puzzle. Critical reading/listening is a necessary skill in life. Additionally, some people locally are gluttons for punishment and actively seek out the “Timberwolves (or Vikings) as inept” narrative to serve as an outlet for other frustration, unhappiness or boredom in their lives.
There is an element of wishful thinking for the national media here too. If they pump up the Rubio must go to NY storyline, can it be self-fulfilling?
Answer: NO. With this situation, I actually think we have the right man for the job in Kahn. He has the disposition to play this out correctly with the fans, media, league.
by Punisher#8 on Jun 27, 2009 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
…a lazy media is still dependent on the people who buy into it. It’s definitely a two way street.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen
Thank you for saying what so many Minnesota fans are thinking…
by wtd3 on Jun 27, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's even more ridiculous if you look at the history of these things
Two years ago the Bucks managed to get Yi Jianlian to their team while facing down China. Now, just because the Rubio family is (maybe) a little reluctant to come here, Minnesota is automatically going to crumble and and trade him for crap.
Really? Do people forget that Milwaukee couldn’t even involve their owner (a US Senator) because it would have created an international incident?
In term of potential disaster by the team doing the picking, the Rubio situation is nowhere near that of the Yi scenario. And yet in the end, the team got their man.
by McCleak on Jun 27, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately,
only for one year, in Milwaukee’s case. Although Ricky and Yi’s situations will be different because Ricky will actually be good.
by princelyfrank on Jun 27, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mil did not need to move Yi, they moved him for value. It was a basketball related move, not a forcing from China.
by revprodeji on Jun 27, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nowadays with the global information access at his peak is that national reporters need the “sources” or “general managers agree with me in”… starting lines. If they started with “i believe”, “i can’t help to feel like”, “in my opinion”… What would differentiate them from comments on an article or posts on a blog by any other person on the internet? Pretty much nothing, there is nothing “mister big shot espn reporter” can think of that a guy hasn’t figured out already and posted one thousand times for everybody to read. They need to feel like they have something to offer, something that can validate his job to the eyes of the massified public. And what they have that most people don’t is access to sources, so why not use them? even if the source has not been clear about a particular topic of interest, that source is sure to have an opinion and maybe even valuable information about the matter, so the fact that you’re not saying his/her name makes you invulnerable to critic to some extent while having enough weight to outmuscle the opinion of “mr joe the local blogger”. Both “mister big shot espn reporter” and “mister joe the local blogger” may have reached the same idea at the same time, but if both started the sentence saying “i believe” instead of “sources in the league say” the espn guy would not get paid.
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well put
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to think this...
With the KG scenario, when everyone was speculating that KG wanted out but KG. In actuality, the only time he acceded to a trade was when Taylor wouldn’t extend his deal at his current rate. It was constant and honestly made me stop reading ESPN for several years until they started having non-media types like Hollinger and David Thorpe giving some deeper analysis, though I think their hand was forced by other sources who were costing them web hits, at least according to my sources ;).
With that said, those narratives change with success on the field/court/rink. The Vikings have been able to mostly move away from Moss’ antics and the Love Boat without being that successful. The Twins went from being perennially hapless to at least perennially competitive (if not formidable). It happened with the Wolves once KG entered the league.
To me, you’re providing accurate analysis of the situation. It’s not about being homerish or deluded. It’s about taking the comments and the facts at face value. There’s history to back up that, yes, stars can play here and still receive national endorsements (Mauer, KG, Moss). They haven’t even needed to be great winners to do it; KG was getting ads when his team was 26-56. Ask fans of the Pacers, Pistons, and Bucks if a team can be competitive in a cold climate.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 27, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post!
I’d really like to hear more about your evil manipulative career phase, but I know it is off topic for canishoopus.
I’ve been impressed with your arguments that support the goodness of Kahn’s decisions, and I’ll bet his team does too. Your statement that Kahn absolutely had to take Rubio fits my perception as well… he had to do it.
He did not have to draft Flynn, and if he thought Rubio would be a Wolf, then he woulda/coulda/shoulda done something different — numerous options come to mind — that is my opinion. And he should have been prepared — even I saw the possibility of RR falling to 5.
Now, about your question: Are you writing your opinions to manipulate your audience? When I’ve read your defense of Kahn’s draft decisions, I have sometimes wondered how closely you are allied with Kahn’s office. You have done a great job of defending him, and most bloggers would take a more negative road, if only to prove smarts and drive traffic.
For the record, I do not think you are in league with Kahn’s office. I do think you want very much for the Wolves to succeed and to improve their reputation, and you are working in that direction. (Hey, maybe you are subconsciously auditioning for an interview? I hope you get it! The Wolves need you!)
I also really appreciate the way you have dismantled the “sources say” method of influencing tiny minds — it appears way to often in the mass media, and now seems to pass for real journalism even at the WaPo and NYT among major media. It fits my opinion of what’s happening in the media world, and why newspapers and Big TV are failing. Here’s my take:
- Smart folks are no longer satisfied with mass media, they spend their time on blogs, or watching the cooking channels or Pimp My Ride or playing video games or whatever. Mass media thus gets the leftovers — either brain dead folks still watching the mind rotting programming and faux news, or smart folks tuning in for sporting events and maybe a show or two a week.
- Thus mass media outlets are competing for a share of a shrinking audience by offering dumber and more sensational stuff — The Roman Empire and circuses come to mind.
- Bottom line, the mass media are no longer mass media anymore. They appeal to a specific social segment, and as they compete for it they drive people like me increasingly to the internet for information and entertainment. There is no way out for mass media other than a slow death.
Meanwhile, I am happy as a pig in s##t reading blogs like this one, to get some intelligent dialog, learn more about hoops (or whatever) from people smarter on the topic than me, get more current information and see more sides of a story than one could ever get via dead trees or programmed TV.
Keep on keepin’ on, SnP! I’d love to see you work with the Wolves on stats driven strategy or messaging, now that you’ve told us about that side of your background.
by timmuggs on Jun 27, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point about the" mass media" being a niche these days
although I had had to laugh at your description of the “smart folks” watching Pimp My Ride
by princelyfrank on Jun 27, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post.
Just be thankful Rubio hasn’t been seen in a Yankees hat yet.
Posting and Toasting: "Say yo Oak, what's the dish tonight? A couple steaks on the grill and we season it right."
by Seth on Jun 27, 2009 10:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You'd like that
;) Rubio and LeBron.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unnamed sources tell me this blogpost is written by a Timberwolves fan
And multiple sources close to the situation enjoyed it.
Troy Nunes Is An Absolute Magician - The Syracuse blog that cares.
by Sean Keeley on Jun 27, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jun 27, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think that your (SnP) agenda is a mildly interesting question
I pointed this out in another thread, but for a guy who was SO FREAKING high on Steph Curry—higher than anyone else, to turn around and not criticize Kahn for passing on that obvious choice is surprising.
You argued that your love of Curry had to do with him being on the ball, and that with Rubio around, that wasn’t going to happen. Frankly, that position seems a bit…weak to me. You LOVED Curry. Not only that, Curry’s ability to make shots and score efficiently is a big part of his appeal. Aren’t those things still skills of his even with Rubio? And don’t those skills mesh with Rubio’s game at least as well if not better than Flynn’s skills, which have to do entirely with being on the ball? And if part of drafting Flynn has to do with the idea that Rubio might not come over this year, doesn’t Curry solve that as well, and better in your opinion?
I’m needling you a little bit here, of course. But you asked for it. Great job.
by Eric in Madison on Jun 27, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Completely fair..
….I’ll have a post up later this weekend about Curry. I just never thought they’d have a shot at Rubio.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still pretty mad about it.
We had a chance to have Rubio and Curry, two absolute basketball magicians, two prodigies, in the backcourt together. A backcourt with better size than the one we did, in fact, choose. Two possible superstars! After Sacramento’s pick, that is what I was expecting (or to trade out of 6, possibly).
Two prodigies, together. And with complimentary skill-sets, despite what you say. Doesn’t pairing possibly the world’s greatest shooter with possibly the world’s greatest passer make sense to you?
P.S. I am aware that I am perhaps overstating the games of Curry and Rubio slightly. But superlatives are truly the greatest of all adjectives.
by princelyfrank on Jun 27, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
I think that a Curry and Rubio backcourt is much much worse defensively than a Rubio and Flynn backcourt.
Neither Curry or Flynn can effectively guard shooting guards. Curry is way to slight to do it and isn’t tall enough or quick enough. Flynn is shorter than Curry but is much, much quicker and stronger. Flynn will be able to defend point guards in the NBA, Curry will have trouble defending point guards.
I think Flynn is the much better choice defensively. On offense, Curry is obviously the better shooter but Flynn gets to the basket. I don’t think it’s clear cut that Curry was the better choice.
But, I am an apologist.
by littleboxes on Jun 27, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not having any shooters...
…worries me. I know that this is a work in progress, but they have zero guys who can hit from beyond the arc if you’re not counting Ellington. Here’s hoping Ellington can play.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Klove has been working on his range!
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked what Kahn said...
about how pro players improve in all areas, but shooting in particular. The gap in shooting proficiency between Curry and Flynn is a lot greater now than it will be in two years. Clearly, we valued Flynn more than Curry, so we’ll just have to wait and see whether it was a good choice or not. I’m not quite as high on Curry as most are, but still preferred him to Flynn—but in this dual point guard situation, maybe Curry would’ve been a bad choice.
by Andy G on Jun 27, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the catch and shoot numbers between Curry and flynn were almost the same. Curry’s value is on the ball.
by revprodeji on Jun 27, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Read
I have been thinking the past two days about how this story would have played out if it were the New England Patriots who made the same type of decision or another sports franchise with a shortened narrative of “we’re smart”. With the exact same circumstances of the draft, the buy-out and everything else the assumption would be that this was a shrewd move that will pay off at some point.
But as you have well articulated, what really gets set off here in people’s minds is the dysfunctional t-wolves narrative pattern.
Only one way to change that though – we need to win and Kahn needs to be proven over time that he makes good, smart decisions.
I saw enough draft night to make me think both may happen.
Enjoying the ride so far.
by Django Z on Jun 27, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Point
If it had been the Spurs making this pick instead of the Wolves, everyone would have been marveling at their brilliance.
by Jackdaw on Jun 27, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a former sports journalist...
I think you’re right on the money. People would be amazed at how lazy most “reporters” are. Very few even have legitimate “sources” for what they right. In most cases, said sources are actually other lazy journos who heard something from someone who heard something.
A good rule of thumb is looking for quotes from named sources directly connected to the situation. Any article that doesn’t have that usually isn’t worth the fish it’s wrapped in…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Jun 27, 2009 10:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Write, not right...
Not hard to figure out why I am a “former” journalist…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Jun 27, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You didn't like wearing pants around the office?
I can understand that. Completely.
I hate Pod Six. I don't even know why we have a Pod Six. Total suck pod.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Jun 27, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because...
The pattern in the pants caused an optical illusion in the crotchral area….
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
by mutleyil on Jun 27, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stuff about Galifinakis
Though I’m not sure the citizens of North Carolina would want a relative of someone who does this as their House rep:
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 27, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Would saying that Minnesota is cold make sense...
considering the weather in N.Y. during the winter isn’t that great either- just a little warmer?
by KGMN on Jun 27, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, Rubio's contract situation wouldn't change, would it?
If he went to New York, he would still have the $6.6 million buy-out, right?
by KGMN on Jun 27, 2009 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
correct
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, I would guess that
using theDYSFUNCTIONAL HISTORY OF THE MINNESOTA VIKINGS as a narrative is just as troubling to you?
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 10:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We all have our own axes to grind
;)
I admit it. I’m completely irrational when it comes for my dislike of the Vikings and professional football. Perhaps it had something to do with running cross country and playing basketball in high school; maybe it’s because I live about a mile from their training camp and every year the town becomes obsessed with the team. Guilty as charged. I will say this. I invoke that narrative freely and without any reference to inside sources. That hatred is a home brew. ;)
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW:
This is also the main reason why I don’t have a Vikings blog or make a lot of posts on the subject. I’m fully aware of my jackassery on that front.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's cool
I’m just saying that narratives and stereotypes can’t get traction unless there is at least some kernel of truth there. "Christmas happens in July" doesn’t convince anybody who has a rudimentary knowledge the calendar. The "small-market, cold, messed-up Timberwolves" hurts because some of it is true, and it’s our team they’re bashing (Along those lines, is everyone "Hear Hear!-ing" up and down this thread completely innocent of ever making an off-handed Clippers joke in the past? I know I’ve made my share, some of which have even been funny)
Kahn did the right thing in drafting Rubio. He also did the right thing in drafting Flynn. Where the confusion and derision is coming from is that there is no evidence that Rubio was "testing the waters" with this draft. So when he’s "mulling over his options with his family" or whatever b.s. spin is being put on his inability to immediately embrace playing for the Wolves, it’s perfectly natural for others (whose job is to speculate) to speculate on what that means. Until Rubio says, "I’ll be in Minnesota on opening night," his vague responses to the matter are going to be open to interpretation (see Favre, Brett).
Kahn has done whatever he could to try to mitigate that speculation, but his answers about putting both players in the backcourt at the same time have struck some as disingenuous. Is that really out of bounds to question a GM (with no coaching experience) of a team with no coach who says that he picked the two top point guards in the draft so that they could play together? I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask if that is really the truth, or if it’s a good idea.
Of course, Kahn could have said the truth, which is, "Rubio will hopefully be here in a year or two. In the meantime, we need a better point guard than Sebstian Telfair, so we drafted Flynn right wafterwards. Having Flynn on the team gives us a better team now, and leverage against other teams who will inquire about trading for the rights to Rubio." He can’t really be that upfront, but it doesn’t mean that everyone has to blindy accept whatever baloney he serves up. Besides, the truth won’t sell season tickets this year, or next.
We all want Rubio on the Wolves (well, most of us). And part of what caused him to be available at the fifth pick is because some GMs didn’t want to go through the turbulence of what Kahn is going through (I’ll give Kahn a ton of credit—whatever he’s been paid in the last month, it’s not as much as he deserves).
But Rubio’s initial reaction to being drafted fifth, right before another strong point guard, by a team with no coach, that admits it’s in Stage 1 of a Five-Stage Rebuilding Process, makes it easy for casual media types to connect the dots to fill a column or segment. We do it all the time, as you have so graciously admitted, for both the Wolves and other teams. Until facts, figures, and events tell us otherwise, I’m guessing we’ll continue to do it as well.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true...
….there is truth in all of this otherwise the narratives wouldn’t work and your brain would be programing you into crazy space. I should have made it clearer in the post that the problem arises when you try to bridge a gap that doesn’t or can’t be bridged with a framed issue. By adding unnamed sources and going from, say, “the Wolves don’t have a coach” to “they never would have drafted Flynn if a coach was in the room” they are activating narratives that don’t exactly fit the issue at hand.
We use narratives all the time. It’s how our brain processes information. We’re bound to cut corners and screw up and be hypocrites on the matter. It’s a gray area and that’s why I threw in the BTW at the end of the post. I’m guilty of this too. I just don’t have a big enough microphone to make it matter.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The George Will quote says it for me
I forget the exact phrasing, but partly because I don’t get to quote George Will sympathetically very much, I often trot his take out on pro football:
Football is the quintessential American sport: occasional outbursts of organized violence, punctuated by committee meetings.
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a good one.
Smartest thing he ever said.
by princelyfrank on Jun 27, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
Basically every slutty trash rag in New York needs this post to be processed. NEWS FLASH: Donnie Walsh is going to call MN about Rubio!! No shiz. (1) It’s his damn job, (2) he’s got a crappy team he’s looking to improve, (3) he knows he’ll be skewered if he doesn’t, (4) he’s actually friends with Kahn and will talk to him from time to time anyway, (5) so will everyone else in the NBA, (6) they might actually have interest in Flynn, as well, (7) they, again, have a crappy team they are trying to improve, and (8) they have a crappy team. NEWS FLASH NUMBER TWO: They Knicks don’t have the goods, and this isn’t a fire sale. It will never, ever happen. Kahn just started, got the OK for a years-long rebuilding project, just started, and is working for an owner that kept the previous GM around years longer than anyone expected after an abysmal performance. Think, write, think, write, revise, think, revise, publish.
S-n-P, your post made me think of Hayden White on narrativity and narrative closure (one of my nerd heroes as a current grad student). Know him?
by TheH on Jun 27, 2009 10:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not familiar with him...
…I may have read him in college at one point but I can’t think of him off the top of my head. What should I read of his?
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A collection of essays called "The Content of the Form"...
… shouldn’t be too hard to find, and some of the most stimulating narratology there is, I think. His basic point is one that you are echoing: that narrative emplotment of certain “facts” or “givens” is what lends the illusion of the real to a given account of reality. Very influential in theoretically engaged historical work at present, and directly pertinent to the descriptive task of the modern reporter.
by TheH on Jun 27, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent...
…thanks. For anyone else, here’s the link on Amazon.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
S n P
Found your first several paragraphs on interesting. Would like more info on this perspective. What books would you suggest to understand this better?
by Elastico on Jun 27, 2009 11:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I come at this subject...
….from a social science perspective so I really can’t speak to the hard science aspect of it all with any sort of expertise. I’m also pretty specialized in terms of what I look for in terms of framing issues. In other words, if you’re looking to frame, say, a pitch for a new weapons system to a DoD official or Congressman, I’m your guy. If you’re looking for general literature on the subject, I’m probably not the best resource because I tend to gravitate towards books and journals that frame things in terms of their political usefulness.
If this sounds interesting to you, I’d suggest starting out with some general study books from popular linguists like George Lakoff, David Crystal, or someone along those lines. You can find a linguistic book on pretty much any subject that fits your fancy. I like to read about political issues and I find that guys like Lakoff and Luntz are instructive…and not just for their general takes on this, that, or the other issue; Luntz has basically driven the post-Gingrich GOP message machine and functionally, he’s a very useful fellow to read and understand. Anyone who wants to understand how the health care debate will play out needs to know about Frank Luntz.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Lutz
is probably the one person who could convince me that Christmas really does happen in July.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not what you say..
…it’s what people hear.
The man has a phenomenal impact on our modern political landscape. This is a guy who turned “Orwellian” into a positive term for the GOP. He came up with Death Tax, energy exploration, clean coal, climate change, and many, many others. He’s the guy who has single-handedly modified almost each and every single public scientific, religious, and political debate over the past 15 years. It’s not just in the US. The guy has a world wide framing operation. One of the great villains of our time.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One person's villain
is another person’s hero. But in Lutz’s case, he’s been too clever by half. Many so-called Republicans now believe that they can say and do whatever they want, as long as they get it framed properly. However, unless Lutz is doing the framing for them, they usually fail miserably.
Democrats have benefited from this incompetence, of course, and started to figure out the same strategies. But they’ll never be as successful at it, because they suffer from a chronic condition (hat tip to another Okie).
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He and Gingrich...
…started an electoral arms war. Nothing is connected to policy anymore and up has officially become down for both parties. It’s really quite horrifying. Worst of all, the people at the heart of the action believe it. Even Luntz doesn’t believe this crap. It’s reason #1 why I will be going back to school to become an elementary school teacher.
You’d be surprised on just how well Democrats are becoming more sheep than cats when it comes to herding. Gingrich absolutely revolutionized the power structure of the House and it grew into the Senate and now Reid and Pelosi are using the same tools to get the same results. PACs and closed rules have allowed the entire shebang to be run by committee chairs, conferees, and party leadership. The backbench is just there for the looks.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the names.
Have made online requests at local libary for Luntz, Lakoff, and Crystal. Still tracking White.
by Elastico on Jun 27, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd keep an eye
on the Pete Petersen people, as well as Pat Buchanan’s bunch. If there’s going to be a third-party arising from this situation, these are the areas from which one might spring.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm of the...
….it’s far too late crowd to think it will matter. We’re on the Hindenburg.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yabbut
it’s been that way for millenia. And yet, here we are arguing if Jonny Flynn was a better pick than Stephan Curry. So things must be going pretty well.
Now, if congressional debates start degenerating back into pistol duels in the Senate Chambers, well, then the only winners are the good people of the world.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I view it as having...
…past Peak Wingnut. We’ll completely crash the thing and then have to build it all back up again. Mountains of debt, 2 wars, bombing Pakistan on a daily basis (yes, we do this), a changing climate…structural change is needed. I’ll try to find a link to it but last Fall we came within 3 hours of a complete global economic melt down when there was a run on the banks. It’s crazy. There’s only so much we can borrow on a lot of fronts.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm only too aware of the near melt-down last fall
but being the one-eyed man in the land of the blind still makes the U.S. the best place to put money. It helped save capitalism lo, about nine months ago.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always have thought of this tactic as creating a "meme." I don't know if that's correct though...
It reminds me of the ol’ “heads I win, tails you lose” ruse.
by OkieWolf on Jun 27, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Processing the News" is an interesting take on how people interpret news stories
I’m not sure if it’s still in print, but that title’s about how people try to fit “news” they see into their established and understood patterns, and how the authors and editors of that “news” interact with those expectations.
Had that as a textbook in a “political psychology” course a while ago.
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schema theory on a basketball board. Now I have seen it all.
You’re top notch, Stop N Pop.
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 12:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Danke..
…schemata has always been one of my favorite words. I just looks wrong.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your post is spot on
Nice commentary. I agree with most everyone here. ESPN and their ilk are nothing but sports pimps. We complete this co-dependent relationship, but we can at least acknowledge their virtually total BS factor. Go Wolves!
by ogishkemuncie on Jun 27, 2009 12:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, after all this talk about un-named sources
I hate to offer this up. From someone I know, inside.
As all teams, the Twolves did multiple “mock drafts” attempting to plan for all scenarios for picks 2-4. (An aside – many more “mocks” than in years past – and they started doing them earlier. There was more effort on establishing player “tiers” this year too)
The Twolves draft goal – a 1 and a 2. When they made the trade, they had Evans, Harden, Rubio, and Flynn in play for 3-6. They were convinced that Thabeet was off the board at 2. They were also pretty sure that Flynn would be available as they were one of the few teams that had Flynn over Curry. (My opinion – probably because Curry did not work out for us while Flynn did and did so well)
The scenario where Rubio dropped to us was consider less than 1 out of 100. If he did, they were taking him no matter what – he was considered by the Twolves as the #2 talent in the draft. In that scenario, the Twolves would consider offers for #6 – a latter 2009 1st rounder and hopefully a conditional 2010 1st. (My opinion – that was way too optimistic in a weak draft)
Sacramento made the Evans pick (which surprised the hell out of the Twolves) which put us in the 1 out of 100 situation. Several immediate feelers received but nothing close to a no brainer in the 5 minutes allowed. Picked Rubio. Now we put out feelers for #6 while debating Flynn vs Curry one last time. Really want a 2009 pick in the a 10-12 range plus another pick as it was anticipated Flynn would still be on the board. Nothing came forward in the 5 minutes.
Curry’s value was seen mainly as a trade asset as we projected him as a 1, not as a 2. Flynn was higher rated internally at 1. No 2s anywhere near the top worthy of #6. Pick was Flynn.
Obviously, the rest is well known/discussed. The Twolves did not get their draft objective but did get possible an even greater trade asset than Curry in Rubio. This will be very slow played over the next several months.
by Just A Fan on Jun 27, 2009 12:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks..
…and just to let you know, I have no problem with this below the fold. We’re not news makers here. We’re just fans of the team who like to speculate and talk about this, that, or the other. If we presented it as news above the fold, I would demand a name, but down here it’s fine. No problems at all. People can view it in its proper context and ask questions as necessary.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
….I view the comment section as something like talk radio or a basic conversation between fans. As long as it is respectful and open to a back-and-forth, I have no problem with people talking about what they heard from someone in the organization. I just want to be sure it doesn’t make its way above the fold or become an “official” rumor somewhere else.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
F ME in the pants
Great stuff, Just a Fan.
I rarely say or write CAN’T, but they can’t trade Rubio. What a public relations disaster. Might as well hire George W. Bush to run the team and insert Dick Cheney as coach.
by littleboxes on Jun 27, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
I think Rubio could be traded. Not sure how to do this with a trade checker but based on Rubio’s cap hold you could do something like this:
Camby, Gordon, the better of 2010 Clippers/Twolves 1st rounder (eliminates us owing the Clippers a pick) for Cardinal and Rubio.
Gordon proved to be a young SG who can create his own shot. Camby becomes a huge expiring contract asset at the trade deadline for us to use with a contending team needing to rent a post player. We get a for sure 1st 2010 pick likely top 10.
Rubio goes to a strongly Hispanic market and helps the Clippers sell tickets. Cardinal is filler to help make the $$$ work.
So, you turn Rubio into 3 assets.
Not advocating this or any deal today – just saying you can creative trade him – especially before he shows up in a Twolves uniform.
by Just A Fan on Jun 27, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that type of trade
will be out there for as long as the Wolves have Rubio’s Rights. RealGm had a listing of what Memphis had been offered by various teams for the 2 pick, and they all looked like the deal you mention (and I’m guessing the teams offering weren’t going after Thabeet).
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 assets, the sum of which has far less value than Rubio, asuming he’s capable of even 3/4 of his supposed potential.
I see zero reason to trade him now. Zero. Let him go back to Spain if he wants. Until he comes over here and shows what he can do in the NBA, we’re going to be getting crap offers. Blazers idiots on RealGM think a package involving Rudy and Travis Outlaw is enough to land the kid. Yuck. Make him come over here and show what he can do if he wants to go somewhere else. Milk it and get the most value possible for the franchise.
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This seems perfectly reasonable
thank you for posting it.
If picking Rubio at five and putting up with a bunch of crap for a few days, months, or years is the only way the Wolves have a shot at him, I’ll take it. Just don’t move him unless a potential All-Star is coming back.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another thing
Kahn is handling this as well as he can. Some posters here and elsewhere are endorsing taking a tough stance with Rubio. That’s always an option, but it’s usually best as the last option. In the meantime, gently encouraging Ricky to come over when he’s ready, and offering to consider a coach and rebuild the team to suit his talents is a great way to go.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can do both without alienating Rubio
“We value you and believe you have a central role as the lead point guard on a young team. We are willing to wait until you are ready”.
It’s a matter of what is stronger – his desire to play in the NBA vs. his desire to play in New York.
by Auswolf on Jun 27, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very plausible scenario...
It’s clear to me that they expected it to be Harden/Flynn or Evans/Flynn.
It’s all speculation at this point, but there’s a more recent precedent for a potential Flynn/Rubio backcourt: Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson. The Suns had those two and Steve Nash looking for minutes, and though they didn’t play together for long because Johnson was injured enough that he ended up retiring, they still had to play together. The obvious difference is experience, but unlike the examples of Johnson/Ainge and Thomas/Dumars, these were two guys who had been the lead guard at every point in their career to that point. Neither one of them were great shooters (Johnson averaged less than 1 3PA attempt per game for his career and averaged 30.5% and Kidd’s a career 40% FG and 35% 3PT shooter), but they were somewhat successful and still had enough minutes to go around for Nash (10 mpg as a rookie and 21 mpg the next year).
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 27, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kidd/Johnson...
Here are stats from the 96-97 and http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1998.html seasons for the Suns. In 97-98, Kidd played 38 mpg for all 82 and Nash played 21 mpg for 76 games, so there were obviously some cases in which Kidd and Nash played together. They also had Rex Chapman, who averaged about 30 mpg over those two seasons, and he was 6-4 playing the two and the three.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 27, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry — messed up the 2nd link.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 27, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hard to believe..
… all that PG talent was once on one squad.
by TheH on Jun 27, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks JAF
I’ve always loved reading your “inside info” reports.
by levi_mn on Jun 27, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ricky rubio appeared on spanish national tv saying he is really proud of being one of the few top5 european players. His dream is to play in the nba and the most shocking/interesting/not-so-believable. when asked if he thinks he will be europe next season he says “the possibilities of that are minimal”, but at the same time he says that he thought that everything would be resolved right after the draft like saying that there are some problems that could make europe a possibility.
i’ve seen the video myself and it’s edited and the questions are imprinted on screen so i wouldn’t say it’s 100% accurate or non-tampered, but it’s there
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it floating around somewhere on the intertubes?
by saudagg on Jun 27, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope, i saw on a sports webpage (as.com) affiliated to the national tv channel that showed the interview during noon news.
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Link
href=“http://www.as.com/baloncesto/articulo/ricky-estoy-orgulloso-decepcionado/dasbal/20090627dasdasbal_6/Tes” >
AlexS posted this on rubechat. Assuming its it as I don’t know what it says
by Biff Cooper on Jun 27, 2009 2:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yes, that’s exactly the video i was talking about, i could translate it if someone is interested, but it pretty much says what i wrote previously
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone know how much the DKV contract buyout is reduced after one year or two years, respectively?
Or is it an abolute that must be paid whenever he comes, tomorrow or ten years from now?
by OkieWolf on Jun 27, 2009 2:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
let’s see if i can explain it , today the buyout would be exactly 4.7 million euros (6.6 million us dollars), but it increases july 1st to 5.7 million euros (8 million dollars).
next year the buyout is exactly the same, it’s 4.7 million euros till july then 5.7 again. But there is a verbal agreement that if rubio stayed one more season like rudy fernandez did the buyout would be halved (so it would be 3.3 million dollars aprox).
his contract runs through 2009-10 and 2010-11, so in the summer of 2011 (two years) he is a free agent and he has to pay exactly 0.
right now there is a lawsuit due to october 14th in which a judge can lower the buyout to somewhat closer to his earnings (150.000 dollars aprox each year).
There are some other constant talks between the agents and the club to avoid the lawsuit but those are the hard cold facts right now.
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope that just a fan is right in his take, because if Rubio is the clear #2 on your board, you sure don’t trade him to build around the #6 player on your draft board, especially as a rebuilding team.
by Ebomb on Jun 27, 2009 2:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
solid gold
Not so much a “take”, but a source. This is, by far, not the first time JAF has delivered the true “inside” perspective. From time to time, he and I have tangled over opinions, but never the facts.
by levi_mn on Jun 27, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kahn knows what he is doing
I think Kahn is looking extremely shrewd in all of this. Think about what he has accomplished:
He didn’t have to trade up any further than #5 to get the guy he and all of us wanted. I think he somehow found out what OKC’s plans were at #3—perhaps from his discussions with another team in trade talks. Otherwise why wouldn’t OKC have taken our #5 and our #18/28 where they would have ended up with Harden anyways. There was no secret that the Wolves were looking to move up to get Rubio. The alternative is that OKC was that dumb, which I doubt.
Regardless whether or not this first supposition is true and whether or not Rubio just did happen to fall in our lap, the move to draft Flynn was brilliant. He knows that MN isn’t Rubio’s first choice, so instead of giving him the leverage to ask for a trade, he gave himself the leverage of getting another PG at #6. Kahn said it himself that the Wolves are in the unique position of being able to wait out Rubio’s Spanish contract, so there is no need to trade him.
There is a lot of posturing going on now on both sides, which is to be expected in negotiations. For one, I think Rubio’s posturing is two sided. One, he probably prefers to play elsewhere, but not enough to go back to Europe. But if he makes it look like he would go back to his Spanish team, he may get some leverage in his buyout negotiations, since I think his team really wants to cash in on the buyout rather than get considerably less after next year or nothing after two. Secondly, I don’t really think Kahn believes Flynn can play SG. He isn’t a coach, so he really shouldn’t be the one deciding that anyways. But he doesn’t want to send the wrong message to Flynn and have him start demanding a trade either or make it seem like we are shopping him and thus giving other teams leverage in trade negotiations.
I think we all agree that there was absolutely no alternative to NOT drafting Rubio. So any criticism that we shouldn’t have taken a player that we didn’t know would sign is not only misguided, but stupid. It also ignores the fact that we still got our PG at #6 should we not be able to work anything out. If Rubio stays in Spain for two years, we get to see whether or not Flynn is worth holding on to or shift gears to Rubio.
Others say we pissed off Rubio by taking Flynn. Of course we did—because he no longer has the leverage in this situation and he knows it. I really believe that if Rubio is signed, Flynn will be traded. But if we are unable to sign him, we would be perfectly happy with playing Flynn since he would have been our PG had Rubio been taken by OKC or SAC.
I think Kahn has played his hand brilliantly so far in every manner. He has leverage on the Rubio camp and with his Spanish team. He has excited the fan base by getting the guy everyone wanted and being very transparent in his letter to the fans while making his intentions to stand pat known to other teams looking to fleece us. Also, when is the last time that the entire basketball world focused on the Timberwolves—not just in the US, but internationally. Usually, the talk would be about the #1 pick, but Griffin is mentioned in passing as the #1 pick while the real story is the T-wolves and what they will do with Rubio.
Furthermore, and now this is just ranting, the media in general is setting the bar even lower for credibility. There is a tremendous east coast bias at play here. Everyone at ESPN wants you to believe that the Knickerbockers will somehow be able to get Rubio even though they have nothing to offer. Secondly, they cannot fathom the fact that it takes time to rebuild. To truly rebuild, it takes time. Not one season or even two. Kahn is prepared to take the patient approach and do the prudent things to do what is best for the long term and not just next year. Because let’s face it, we probably aren’t going to contend for a playoff spot for at least a few years in any event. The east coast culture is pervasive in the media’s reporting and slants where there is a notion of immediate results. For some reason they cannot comprehend a plan that is not geared towards immediate improvement versus a disciplined approach to changing an entire organization with strategic vision beyond the two years that Rubio may very well spend in Spain.
Furthermore, why does the size of market matter anymore? With the prevelance of satellite television, streaming video, and an ever increasing national sports media and marketing, the difference between playing in New York and Minneapolis isn’t what it used to be from a marketing standpoint.
by rencito on Jun 27, 2009 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree in some points, but i don’t think it’s either white or black, it’s pretty much grey. I may very well be wrong but if you’re right kahn would be a great chess player, unless rubio comes this year in which case he has 2 point guards (nobody is making offers for flynn because everybody thinks it’s rubio the one that creates problems for the wolves) selected in the top6 that can’t play together and one of them is going to look bad (if not both, which i really doubt but it’s possible). I think they got the top2 players they thought were there, and that’s all, they know neither is untouchable, and they know rubio staying two years while acceptable is not a desired option at all for anyone (including rubio). Also there is a possibility that rubio accepts there is no chance he is traded and still doesn’t come because he can’t pay his buyout with the money he gets in minnesota at 5.
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he CAN pay his buyout. He makes more than enough to do so over the course of the contract, which doesn’t even take into accounts endorsement $$, so that’s truly not an issue. They’re probably holding out to see if they can get it lowered in the effort of maximizing their cash intake.
And if Ricky really wants to go back for a year and save himself $3 million, we’re perfectly set up to allow him to do so. We have Flynn – we can wait. We get a year to look at JF and establish his value, plus we stink again for a year, which sucks for the fans but is probably great for the team in the long-term. Then we get another shot at a stud next year to place next to our potential all-star Spanish PG AND we have Flynn as trade bait.
If it happens like this it could be immense for the Wolves. Frustrating given the patience it will require, but it could transform us into an upper echelon team in just a few years. Imagine being in position to select Evan Turner next year, bring over Ricky for the 2010 season AND have the freedom to move Flynn to fill out the roster. This is not out of the question.
I will be VERY VERY surprised if they trade Ricky. I still see zero reason to do it.
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m sorry but you’re not completely right, ricky needs liquid money, and the liquid money of his contract is about 5.8 million dollars guaranteed, and i think around 48.6 percent of that goes to taxes, irs, health.. (in europe your contract is pretty much net money because all of those things are paid by the teams, including sometimes housing and cars which he would have to buy in minnesota i guess). So it would be roughly 3.3-3.5 million in liquid money for the next two years of work. I have no idea how much he will make in endorsements, but it has to be a lot to make up the difference and not be working for free.
Staying one year in europe to make his buyout situation easier is something he is surely talking about (his agent), but you don’t know what his team in spain want so making assumptions is pointless
by Ricky Rubio on Jun 27, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK – checked out the #‘s and I see what you’re saying. It wouldn’t be ideal, but there are definitely ways to get it done if Kahn can convince him that the endorsements will come (taking out a loan, for example). I don’t blame his camp for holding out, though. If they can get the buyout lowered I can see how that would make it significantly easier.
by Xand1 on Jun 27, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could you please
expand on your thoughts?
Great points. Another item to point out to Fegan/Rubio if things get sticky:
“The first four teams drafting before us didn’t want you. The Wolves did. And in terms of the teams who drafted after us, judging by the trade offers we’re receiving, they apparently don’t value as highly as we do.”
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Kahn was extremely shrewd
and knew that Rubio was to be had at 5, then he would have had a trade partner in hand for 6 because the player he wanted (Flynn) was expected to be on the board between 10-12, but not at 18, and NY would jumped in a heartbeat to move up to get Curry.
Rather, let’s such say that Kahn has done a very good job so far adapting to the hand he was dealt. He has made no mistakes. He is doing the right things (talking up Rubio as Pistol Pete reincarnated while proclaiming to wait as long as it takes) to drive up Rubio’s value.
Hopefully, he will know when to cash in.
by Just A Fan on Jun 27, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
he goofed up with the six pick. But! I think he was so giddy with excitement over Rubio, he lost his faculties for a few minutes.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 27, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it was so much "goofed up"
As simply unexpected that all four teams before them would be so irresponsible as to skip Rubio, and then the five minutes or whatever not being enough time to get a decent deal in place.
by Jackdaw on Jun 27, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of this would be a problem if we had drafted Curry. Curry could easily play the 2 spot imo.
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Jun 27, 2009 3:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But then...
…Rubio would have all the leverage to push for a trade. I’m also not as sold on Curry as the second coming of Reggie Miller. He can shoot, but I’m not sure he brings much else to the table. Flynn’s shooting isn’t far from Curry’s. Don’t get me wrong, Curry definitely has the better jumper, but Flynn gets higher percentage shots because of his athleticism.
by rencito on Jun 27, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
…But a great post/article nonetheless.
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Jun 27, 2009 3:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post...
It is really tiring to read and see the exact same lines recycled by the entire collection of ESPN guys. The two most important providers of information on this are Rubio and Kahn. I’ll read their quotes with a lot more interest than any secondary opinions, whether couched in terms of “sourced” or just an explicit opinion.
by Andy G on Jun 27, 2009 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks jerry mcguire
good luck with all that
you can’t even get the NYT front page to follow those guidelines, you think a bunch of sportwriters are going to?
For being media savvy, you’re not very media savvy
Perhaps they could append a “the source asked not to be named because of the fear of having an opinion” to every use of an unnamed source like Newsweek
You know that if we were really strict on not using unattributed sources, the great sport of figure skating might never have gotten to the bottom of the Russian/French deal at SLC.
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring02/Jackson/rulesonrumors.htm
Regards to your poor wife.
by alphatwolf on Jun 27, 2009 3:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Stay classy.
Apologies to the rest of the board on behalf of this.
by TheH on Jun 27, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Classy indeed
You had a good thing going until the end. I understand that I used my wife as a humorous example in the story so in that sense I suppose a little ribbing is fair game but you don’t know her or me so please cut out the crap if you want to be taken seriously here.
I understand the importance of unnamed sources in breaking important stories. It has a long and proud history. I’m arguing that there is a substantial gap between, say, whistle-blowers and political operatives who do nothing but use the media as an amplifier for their favorite talking points. If you don’t think that this issue is a hot-button topic in the journalism world then you’re not paying attention. After Judy Miller and Michael Cooper, even the NYT’s public editor dared the paper’s reporters to stop using information obtained on background. Several DC bureau chiefs followed suit shortly there after.
Unidentified sources are unaccountable and often unassailable. It is a topic that can be found debated at places like Romenesko and other prominent trade sites.
For every example you can site about unnamed sources getting to the bottom of a story, there are ones where unnamed sources tarnish the media outlet’s reputation…like Newsweek when they used a single source to run a story about Gitmo guards flushing Korans down the toilet.
Perhaps I should be a bit clearer in my stance on unnamed sources. I don’t think they should be banned but I do think that they should be harshly edited, and in the case of stories like the Rubio one, they need to take the story someplace other than the writer’s own opinion or generic statements about how the kid hates the cold. I’m simply calling for writers to stop using them on this story. There are too many operatives with their own agendas and it is impossible for a reader to have any sort of clue as to what is news and what is not.
Finally, this site prides itself on solid and entertaining discussion. Name calling and all-around crass behavior isn’t going to hurt anyones feelings and it certainly isn’t going to get a rise out of me. What it will do is a) make you appear like an idiot and/or clown (as you can probably see by contrasting the tone of your post with everyone else’s) and if it continues, b) we will simply delete your posts and move on. You made some solid points but please, if you’re going to stick around here please do so with a bit more class. This isn’t just because what you wrote was directed at me. I would write the same thing if you took that approach to another reader’s spouse as well.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 27, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
my bad. apologies. you’re totally right.
by alphatwolf on Jun 27, 2009 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It takes a big man
to admit when he’s wrong.
It takes an even bigger one to reveal that he knows anything about figure skating.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
by PoorDick on Jun 28, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yes
by alphatwolf on Jun 28, 2009 2:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of sequins...
….I wonder if we’ll ever see a Bedazzled NBA uni.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 28, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it has been done in college
the oregon ducks (of course) had sequins on their MEN’S BB unis
http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2008/02/25/pti-guys-discuss-the-oregon-sequins/
the only way the Twolves would have a harder time recruiting free agents is if we did this
by alphatwolf on Jun 28, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's fantastic
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 28, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pistol Raul Lopez
I was in Carolina in the [late 80s, early 90s] when the [nameless black man] ran against Helms. His berth had slightly better odds than Rubio’s in the twin cities. Lo siento.
by MC_Welk on Jun 29, 2009 10:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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