A little gas on a slow post day
Whaddup Hoopus nation.
Was just reading some posts, doing a little background digging on some players and discovered this blog entry covering the Wolves' draft this year. I'm posting it here because A) it's entertaining, B) it's enlightening in that it shows how entrenched our reflexive thinking/perception of other teams are (in this case, what other people think of us), and C) it really makes me appreciate SnP, Wyn, Hoopus, Brit, and Jerry Z all the more. When you read more and more incompetent journalism (often just opinions supporting a default view of a team with no real analysis or fact checking), it's great to have a community to keep it real and grounded in reality.
Blog entry below the jump.
So back to the Timberwolves, it isn’t just what they added in the draft but what they gave up to get those draft picks. Consider they gave up Randy Foye and Mike Miller to draft Ricky Rubio and take on some bad contracts. When you draft Johnny Flynn with the very next pick, is Rubio really worth it? I think not. Then they trade away the 18th pick when B.J. Mullens was sitting right there. Imagine this scenario instead, they take Johnny Flynn at 5, draft DeMar DeRozan at 6, B.J. Mullens at 18, and Sam Young at 28. If that had happened, then you have your backcourt of the future in Flynn and DeRozan and your frontline is set with Jefferson, Love, Mullens, and Young. Throw Corey Brewer, Ryan Gomes, and Craig Smith into the mix, and that isn’t too bad of a young nucleus to build around.
Observations: This guy hasn't seen much of Foye/Miller on the Twolves. Probably just looking at their stats. Makes me wonder how much we misperceive or overvalue other teams' players in the same way. I get the Derozen argument, but I'm still happy with both Flynn and Rubio. Also, he's basically saying he'd pick Flynn and Derozen over Rubio, which if the Wolves actually did I think he'd write a post about how the past on Rubio at the 5 and 6. Re: Mullens--yuck. I'll take a first rounder next year over Paul Grant, I mean, Mullens this year. Lastly, he thinks that building a nucleus in one draft is a better outcome than adding BPA's at this stage.
However, something more critical to look at, is why they traded Randy Foye and Mike Miller in the first place. It seemed so out of the blue. Foye was blossoming into a solid young playmaker. Also, prior to Al Jefferson’s season ending injury, the Timberwolves had been playing over .500 basketball for the last month. They were starting to play decent basketball, actually going 9-2 over one 11 game stretch. Then Jefferson went down and they were miserable the rest of the season as expected. However, the Timberwolves front office should have noticed the improvement and not virtually blown up the roster to start again.
Observations: Did you watch the Wolves the last two years? That 9-2 stretch was nice, but I think we can all agree that it's still unclear if the team was actually turning the corner or just capitalizing on being on a hot streak against a string of bad teams? We lost a bunch of games against better teams shortly after that streak before Al went down. Reminds me of a principle of studying randomness--people selectively see what supports their expected outcome. Case in point.
So basically, they did everything wrong. They were making progress and now they have blown up the team to start over. Then, they gave up way too much to get the 5th pick in the draft. After all that, they got very little out of a draft they basically mortgaged their future on. The strange part of all this is that we can’t blame Kevin McHale for any of it. He had nothing to do with it. Here is my theory, upon being hired into the front office, they beat you in the head with a baseball bat until you can no longer either spell your name or recite the alphabet. Once that occurs, the initiation is complete and you become a part of the front office. No, but seriously, what are they doing? I have no idea…
A team unlike the Timberwolves is the Oklahoma City Thunder, as they have a clear, concise plan to building a winning team. Over the last 3 drafts, they have now accumulated the foundation they need at every position. At point guard, there is Russell Westbrook. They just drafted James Harden at shooting guard. Kevin Durant and Jeff Green are the forwards. B.J. Mullens is the center of the future. With time, those five pieces will become the starting five that takes the Thunder to the playoffs. I have to give credit to general manager Sam Presti for building this team the right way.
Observations: Progress apparently is going from 22 wins to 24. We'll see if Rubio is better than Foye/Miller. I guarantee that if plays for the Wolves, though, he'll sell more tickets than those two. I wouldn't say we mortgaged our future on this draft. This has been covered before, but Foye wasn't going to work here, and getting Rubio is worth the trade off for me. Getting a first rounder next year is also a great move, but that's not brought up here.
The funniest part for me is this quote, "A team unlike the Timberwolves is the Oklahoma City Thunder, as they have a clear, concise plan to building a winning team. Over the last 3 drafts, they have now accumulated the foundation they need at every position." But I thought building a nucleus in one draft was preferable to doing it in three? I hope hope hope this dude revisits the Wolves in three years. I'd love to read what his analysis is then. The Thunder, "with time", will make it to the playoffs. The Wolves apparently need to make the playoffs tomorrow or they remain a failure and paragon of ineptitude.
30 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Solid..
…it’s going to hinge a lot on Al’s recovery and Rubio vs. Harden. If Al recovers and Rubio turns out to be what a lot of people think he can be, then the Wolves are in great shape vis-a-vis the Thunder. If Flynn and Rubio work out as planned, Kahn will have done something truly amazing: he’ll have put the Wolves on the right track in his opening month.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
www.canishoopus.com
I've railed about this before
I’m not nuts about OKC long-term. If their current nucleus is in place- I don’t love them ever becoming a Great Rebounding or Defensive team. I also quesiton how effective of a long-term solution at PG that Westbrook will be. They have some flexibility though in regards to Cap Space also going forward.
It will take awhile...
No one knows how these trades/drafts will turn out for another two years (or more in the Rubio situation). Then, if our 2009 version of draft/trades doesn’t look as good, we can say “I told you so.”
What we do know:
We know that Randy Foye was a woefully inconsistent guard for the Wolves. One night he would throw up 30 points, the next night you wouldn’t hear from him.
We also know that Mike Miller is a solid player but he didn’t do what the Wolves expected him to do when they got him. Mike Miller was projected to be the consistent parameter shooter with the Midas touch. The projection was that by taking (and making) a large number of outside shots, he would force the defense to not double- and triple-team Big Al. However, Miller fashions himself more a holistic player and often turned down open shots in order to pass to other players and move the ball. This would be more important to the Wizards than the Wolves.
We also know that this draft was point guard dominant. The best players, aside from BG, were predominantly point guards.
What we don’t know:
How will the Rubio situation turn out. Even when Rubio joins the Wolves, how well will his game translate into the NBA, and how long he will take after he gets here to reach his full potential (i.e., round out his game by improving his shooting).
How well will Flynn transition to the NBA. The stellar Summer League performance is encouraging, but how well will he performance over 82-games in the NBA.
How well other draftees (DeRozan, BJ, Harden, Young) perform in the NBA.
How will the Wizards utilize Randy and Mike? The Wizards have an aging core already with 3 or 4 top performers.
Good points
I must say, though, that right now I like the prospects of these three over Derozen, Mullens, and Young. Seeing these three together gets me a little excited for some fun ’n gun.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 18, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Love OKC
Almost definitely the brightest future of any young team in the game, much better than Portland, largely because of Durant, who’s going to be one of the best in the game, maybe top 2 or 3. Love Westbrook, I think Green is a very solid third guy, Harden might turn out well. Sure, they could use help defensively and with rebounding, but those holes can be plugged. Would buy huge amount of stock in this team if I could. My “go to” team on league pass already, picking them for the 8 seed this year.
But I voted “wait and see,” because I definitely have an open mind to what Pork Chop is doing. Loved the Washington trade.
I have recently deemed OKC as my second fave
I don’t really have too much faith in how good they are going to be in 3 to 4 years, but I think they will be fun to watch. They are way to undersized to ever be able to stop guys like Dwight Howard or even Al Jefferson. Jeff Green is too undersized to guard guys like Dirk, KG, and Duncan (or whatever versions of them come out 3 years from now when these guys are too old and retiring). In a matchup against the Wolves, 3 years from now, teams exactly as they are now, we will have the distinct advantage. Big Al will tear Mullens and Green apart on offense and will get at least a 20/20 game. Kevin Love will get the other 30 rebounds that game, 13 of them on the offensive end. And Durant on defense? He will make Corey Brewer look like Lebron. Harden has us beat and the PG matchup would be interesting. My guess is that at least one of Flynn or Rubio will turn out better than Westbrook….I hope!
On another note, I will forever blame Presti for turning Ray Allen into Jeff Green. Terrible terrible terrible move! Jeff Green will never be close to the talent level of Ray Allen and he could have gotten much more out of both Ray Allen AND the fifth pick (granted it was a pretty weak draft…. but even with that excuse, you dont trade Ray Allen for the fifth pick in a weak draft). He will NEVER be Scottie Pippen to Durant’s Jordan, nor will Durant ever be mentioned talent-wise in the same breath as Jordan. The only way Durant would have been mentioned on the same level as Jordan is if Kevin Durant was born 50 years ago.
"I will forever blame Presti for turning Ray Allen into Jeff Green. Terrible terrible terrible move!"
Couldn’t possibly disagree more. Green is going to be damn good, and he’s a big part of their potential.
ugh
Jeff Green would have been the 15th pick in this years draft. I think mock drafts even had him going 10-15 that year. Jeff Green will not be an allstar, especially on the caliber of Ray Allen.
Oh man
15th pick? You believe that? That made me laugh. When they turn into playoff regulars, he might make the All Stars as a reserve. And they didn’t need Ray Allen, they needed young players who might turn into All Stars, but more importantly grow into key parts of their nucleus. Green’s going to be an extremely solid player for them (or whoever else) for the next decade. Write it down, put it underneath your pillow and sleep well at night.
We'll talk again when
Durant and Green start winning defensive honors at the rate that MJ and Pippen were.
I'm not even talking about offense though
Sefolosha is the best defender on that team and they just replaced him. Druant and Green as a nucleus will need some better defensive players around them if they are going to be a solid nucleus. I won’t even get into rebounding cuz I think we can all agree he can’t do that at an acceptable rate for an allstar level PF. As an undersized 4, Green also doesn’t pass as well as he needs to. Nor does he block well or get steals. So what is it really that he does do well? He scores at an ok rate, but that will probably stay the same or take a dip this year with a third offensive weapon in front of him in Harden. So we’ve established he isn’t a defensive specialist by any means (not to say he is known for his weak defense) and we have established that he is probably the fourth option on a team loaded with offensive players. So his moniker that is going to get him to the allstar team is “glue guy?” Usually the do-it-all glue guys who make allstar teams are great defensive players (ex. Rip Hamilton).
I didn't realize we had "established" anything yet
Certainly not about a guy who hasn’t played an NBA game yet (Harden), and not about what Green is going to look like in a few years. If he stayed where he is now, you’d probably be right, but this is going to be his third year. Everything I’ve said is predicated on the almost-certain fact that he’ll get better. And from what I’ve seen (which is a pretty fair amount) he has plenty of ability to get better in whatever phase of the game you want to talk about. You’re comparing him in his second year to Rip at his peak. I don’t see the point in that.
Compare him to whoever you want
He isnt a good passer, a good rebounder, or a good defender. He is a subpar rebounder at best. He is an average defender at best.
Durant is “established” as their first option. No questions. Westbrook last year was their second option in his rookie season. And James Harden is coming in as their answer at SG. They didn’t bring him in for his defense, did they? You are right that he might not be anything, but as of now, he is there as their third scoring option.
Yes, and he'll be a damn good one as third scoring options on playoff teams go
If he doesn’t get better at all those things you say he’s not very good at, I’ll set my house on fire. If Al Thornton turns out to be the more valuable player, I’ll dig my kidney out of my body with a fork and deliver it to your house. Just for fun. You might not even need a kidney, I’m just going to do it.
I'm more worried about his and the rest of the team's defense.
Not to mention their rebounding. I like the team and where they are going, I just don’t think they will ever be able to get past a guy like Bynum/Gasol, Dwight, or even Big Al/Love with Green at the 4 and Mullens? at the 5.
I think it'll be an issue
but a fixable one. I’m not a Mullens fan. Robert Swift II, but without the tattoos. They know it’s an issue (i.e. the Chandler trade).
Excellent
So we can agree on a few things:
They are headed in the right direction, but need to get a defensive stopper center unless the other four all of a sudden get a lot better at D. As it stands now though, this team is defensively deficient.
Mullens will be a serviceable center, but not the one who leads them deep into the playoffs.
They will be an exciting team no matter what their record says.
Jeff Green is an improving player who will without a doubt get better in the next couple years.
What we can agree to disagree on:
Whether or not they received fair value for Ray Allen in Jeff Green.
Whether or not Jeff Green will improve enough to be a bubble allstar.
Where Jeff Green should have gone in the draft or would go in a draft like this year.
Al Thornton’s value…. I think he will do better again this year with Randolph gone….next up: Baron Davis.
Any additions?
That's about right
That was a weak draft that year, but if you did it over again, I bet there’s no chance Green would go lower than he went, possibly one spot higher. I have a hard time labeling a draft as weak before the class has played a year, but a lot of greater basketball minds than I think this year’s was the worst since 2000. So putting him 15th is just totally off the wall to me. But whatever, you get my kidney if I’m wrong, you don’t even need to put anything up in return.
IMO
Jeff Green is over-rated. He is solid across the board but I wouldn’t offer him more than the MLE if he were a FA because he isn’t “really good/great” at anything.
OKC would be one of my favourite teams at the moment purely on how they are constructing their roster piece by piece. But before they get close to the playoffs, they will need another bigman instead of Krstic. They shouldn’t worry about addressing that need yet because next years draft of the bigman will allow them to get a player who will take them to the playoffs.
Would you rather have Green or Brewer?
Green was allegedly McHale’s preferred pick at 7 that year. As it turns out, Noah would have been a better pick than each. I wouldn’t mind having been able to bring Green on board instead of Brew.
Can we take
Al Thornton instead? Even with a bad year last year with such a screwed up lineup I still think he is the third best player to come out of that draft. (Behind Durant and Horford)
Or maybe Ramon Sessions or Marc Gasol instead of Chris Richard?
As Portland are finding out...
collecting talent is one thing. Having success and then keeping the nucleus together beyond their first contracts is quite another.
Harden between Westbrook and Durant was an easy, but excellent choice for OKC.
Only cowards pray for rain.
Presti gets a little too much credit
His best move was drafting Durant…that was a tough decision. Get lucky in the lottery and grab Durant, how did he figure that out?
By the way, the Wolves had virtually the same odds for 2nd pick in that draft…here is potential Wolves lineup if they had the same luck.
PG – Andre Miller
SG – Foye
SF – Durant
PF – KG
C – Brook Lopez
With OKC’s luck, the Wolves are a fifty win team and McHale is still GM!
Haha, what could have been
cough Brandon Roy cough cough
On a less recent note:
cough Shaq or Zo over Laettner cough cough
Also, where is Andrew Miller coming from? And just a guess, but I don’t think we would have gotten Brooz Lopez with KG still on the team in addition to Durant. He slipped though, so maybe.
So...
I’m confused, a lot of your argument blasting this guy’s article was about whether to draft a team over one year opposed to several years. I don’t think that was really his point at all, as he talked about how he wouldn’t have traded for the fifth pick in the first place and kept Foye.
I also think it is fair to say you guys gave up a lot to draft two point guards, one of which may not be around for awhile. At the least, it is a high risk high reward…
As OKC, whose current young nucleus would you rather have? I’m taking Durant, Green, Westbrook, and Harden.

by 















