First reaction to the Richardson/Madsen-Telfair-Smith trade
by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 20, 2009 3:38 PM CDT
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PrintFor some reason it seems like David Kahn has been here a lot longer than he really has. After all, it now appears that he has done away with 5 rotation players from last year's squad: Mike Miller, Randy Foye, Mark Madsen, Craig Smith and Sebastian Telfair. That all happened in less than 2 months. Are there any remaining questions about exactly why Kevin McHale would have had a hard time adjusting to the new regime while planted at the end of the bench? Kahn is demolishing McHale's vision and he is nowhere near being done.
There are a few different angles to this trade. Let's go through them one by one:
- Talent- Let's begin with the simple premise that this trade contained exactly zero world-beaters. One of the players (Madsen) was decidedly sub-par, one was across-the-board average in limited minutes (Smith), one was able to overcome obscenely poor shooting numbers to post decent +/- numbers on a bad team (Telfair) and one is a shooter on the downside of his career who doesn't really do much beyond jacking up threes (Richardson). The bottom line here is that none of the guys involved in this deal should cause anyone to lose any sleep when just considering talent. Telfair is still only 24 years old and he has shown solid improvement over the past 2 seasons with Minny. Smith, for all of his entertaining scoring, is just an average bench player who is woefully undersized and limited in terms of non-scoring attributes. You can look at almost any measurement from Win Scores to PER and come away from this deal with a fairly solid understanding that talent was not what made this deal happen.
- Cap and roster considerations- This is where the rubber hits the road on this deal. You can view the trade at Real GM's trade page by clicking here. The deal will cost the Wolves an additional $1.06 mil against this year's cap while saving them the $2.7 million player option on Bassy's contract in 2010/11. The deal also reduces the Wolves' roster by 2 players while turning 2 expiring deals and a player option into a single larger expiring contract. Instead of having $19.7 mil in 4 expiring contracts (Etan Thomas, Brian Cardinal, Madsen and Smith), the Wolves now have $23.3 mil in 3 expiring contracts (Thomas, Cardinal and Richardson) in a year where expirings are going to matter. Most importantly, this trade turns 3 roster spaces into a single contract. It turns 2 of the team's power forwards into a position of need: the 2/3. When all is said and done in this deal, the two most important factors for the Wolves are that they have increased their buying power with additional expiring money and they have cleared roster space.
- Likability- I hesitate to put this one on the list because nice guys on a 24-win team aren't exactly on the top of my list of things to have but it is hard to understate just how much Madsen was liked in the local community and, reportedly, the locker room. I've made no bones about my distaste for Madsen the player (the whole thrown game thing sticks in my craw), but Madsen the person is definitely someone that was an asset on some level to this team. I also am sad to see the team give up on Bassy. Telfair was my favorite player on the squad and I think his early career was marred by unrealistic expectations and he worked hard to overcome a bad shot and small size in order to become a functional point guard. As bad as things got for the Wolves last season, Bassy carried the team's only positive +/- number after the All Star break. It also cannot be overstated that Bassy was the team's only proven guard and that they are entering the season with Jonny Flynn and, hopefully, Ricky Rubio at the 1.
- Rubio- Speaking of Rubio, I think this trade opens up some legitimate speculation about whether or not the Wolves feel good about their prospects of having the young point on the roster this season. We'll see how this plays out later this week with Kahn in Spain.
All-in-all this trade does two excellent things for the Wolves: It increases the amount of expiring 2009/10 deals while reducing the number of contracts they have to move, and it reduces the number of players on the roster to 13, including Rubio. Here is how the roster would look with Rubio in the mix:
- Rubio/Flynn/Brown
- Flynn/Ellington/Richardson/Brewer
- Gomes/Brewer/Richardson
- Love/Songaila/Pecherov/Cardinal
- Jefferson/Thomas
If there are any negatives, it is that they have placed themselves in a situation where they will need Rubio to come over ASAP and it could give Camp Rubio extra leverage (if there is any to be had) in their negotiations with the squad. They also lose out on a proven locker-room leader who was popular with a limited fan base. Weighing everything altogether, it is a winning deal as it gives the team added flexibility in terms of roster moves while balancing out what was a massively unbalanced roster. $23.3 mil in expiring deals over 3 contracts is a nice thing to have, especially when considering the team's considerable draft assets. From a Clippers perspective, one really has to wonder if this has something to do with their owner's desire to sign Allen Iverson. You can read more about it on our sister site Clips Nation.
What say you?
UPDATE: I forgot to add this in the original post, but this trade also gives the team the ability to add another player (or two) to the roster in order to further balance things out. It probably won't be a player to write home about but it could be someone who sees some decent minutes while filling things out for a year.
UPDATE ii: PSR has some notes in the comments from Kahn's conference call:
- made move now to balance out roster and to capitalize on Clips’ interest in Telfair, which he wasn’t sure would last
- doesn’t indicate Rubio will come over this year but the presence of the two PGs on the roster restricts his ability to get playing time and probably reduces his PT
- adding more vets or not will happen after a head coach is hired and consulted
- doesn’t have anything to do with summer league guys (Siler, Kurz)
- Richardson isn’t necessarily going to stay
- they’re not done
- trip to Spain costs the search 4-5 days
- has been calling those who aren’t getting second interviews and is almost done; will be calling the second-interview guys late this week and early next week (either 3 or 4)
- coach should be hired by end of month or beginning of next month
- not necessarily going to meet with Rubio but will be meeting with club officials
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Running Against the Wind
I agree the trade is mostly about expiring contracts and roster space. I also wonder, however, if this helps the wolves in terms of embracing a faster paced offensive scheme.
Telfair would do well in a fast game, but so will Rubio and Flynn. Madsen, he runs the court but the dude cannot shoot. Smith, he’s a ball stopper. Q-Rich can certainly run and shoot. I don’t think this is a big factor in the trade, but if someone wants to run Q-Rich certainly has the experience.
Madsen's likability is perhaps over-rated with fans
Among the 15-year-olds I had around me at games last year, Mark Madsen was a running joke. Even casual fans knew about the tanking threes years ago. The “human victory cigar” epithet was used by kids who didn’t recognize its history, applied to Mark.
Seriously, at the darkest point of the year there were kids rooting for Madsen to score just because they thought he was so dang awful. That’s not popularity with fans, exactly.
I disagree with that...
Certainly, among young teenagers he might not be appreciated, but by other fans he was certainly well liked. Even my girlfriend – who had never heard of Quentin Richardson before – e-mailed me to say that she would miss “cute and wholesome” Madsen. I think among adults, he was well appreciated.
Of course, I still like the trade, because I don’t think you can keep players around just on the basis of likeability, but don’t undervalue his popularity because of some punk teenagers.
Madsen's popularity...
was mascotish…
party pity
part mocking
part “Rudy”, we love the hustle
Nobody (save family members) ever bought a ticket for a Wolves game because Madsen was on the team.
I'll miss the Mormon jokes. :(
I hate Pod Six. I don't even know why we have a Pod Six. Total suck pod.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Jul 20, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, it does suck to lose the butt
of a good Mormon joke….we still have Mitt Romney.
Richardson should invite some good humor…he may be the most overpaid T-wolf of all time.
There's always..
….Lee Cummard.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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Or
Troy Nutty Boyz Hudson
or
Trenton Hassell
or
Antoine Walker
or
Juwan Howard
would be some other contenders.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
yeah, but...
those guys at least had defined roles or were “once good”….Q was just a bad contract from day 1. PHX must have been laughing their asses off when he got signed away.
I disagree
Q had a great year with Phoenix in the 7SOL offense. He averaged over 6 boards and almost 3 threes per game. Sure, he shot under 40% and back problems got him traded and forced him to sit a lot over the last few years. Regardless, Richardson has had success in this league.
And just to be clear, Phoenix traded him to New York after signing Richardson themselves.
www.canishoopus.com
my bad...I forgot they signed him first
Then they were laughing after the trade….cause the guy is a slow, porky, no defense playing slug…who had one good season.
These teenagers weren't "punks"
The adult season ticket holders I knew in our cheapie section attended pretty infrequently. Those kids, though, were loyalists, attending almost every game, and they knew the league.
Part of their fun as knowledgeable fans was recognizing the deep bench players and being amused by them. It doesn’t take a punk teenager to do that. I do, too.
Terrific Write-Up
Any thoughts on who are potential acquistions with Cap Space next year in Trade or FA?
-Marvin Williams?
-Josh Childress?
-Tyrus Thomas?
-Ronnie Brewer?
-Luol Deng?
-Tyson Chandler?
-Gerald Wallace?
-AK 47?
Seem to be the most logical names. Can anyone think of who I’m leaving out?
Josh Smith
Tayshaun Prince, Rudy Gay and Thad Young. It really puts the Wolves in a position where they could let these deals expire and then make a big front-loaded offer to a RFA or deal for a player that needs to be moved on a team in bad financial straights.
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If they had next year's space this year...
I think they could offer a second-rounder and the rights to Pek for Chandler and get it done. I think they’ll be able to get a similar offer accepted next summer.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly...
…if they can’t move these expiring deals, they still come off the books in a big free agency year where the Wolves could help make any deal in the league by going through with a lopsided trade. let’s say that the knicks want to make a run at wade. the wolves can come in and gobble up a contract that would allow the trade to go through while gathering additional assets. let’s say a team like charlotte hits rock bottom financially. they could trade a 1st rounder straight up for gerald wallace. there are a lot of things that they are freed up to do with this amount of expiring contracts.
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My Main Question
Does Q-Rich have his 3rd New Team Press Conference in the last week?
Sad to see Telfair go,
I thought he could have a role on this squad. But all-in-all, I’m really liking the direction the franchise is taking. They needed a full-scale renovation and I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to see it done in such a strategic, good-for-the-team-now-and-later way.
Don't like it one bit
It is a high risk, high reward type move that has about 1% to pay off. But if Rubio does not come over (and guys, I am firmly betting he is not coming this year), we are absolutely SOL at PG. We have NO back up to Flynn. And when Flynn hits the rookie wall (very, very few rookies don’t hit that wall), where will we be at PG? Brown? Gag me with a stick.
Losing Smith and Madsen don’t bother me. I thought not trading Smith to Chicago 2 years ago for Noah was McHale’s biggest mistake. Oh well.
Q-Rich brings absolutely nothing to the table defensively. Offensively, as you pointed out, it has been a serious 2 year decline. He is now our starting SG! Uff da.
But the biggest thing that gets me is this angling for expiring contracts. Outside of maybe 2-3 teams in the west (Utah, Memphis, maybe OKC) and a couple out East (Milwaukee, Washington) just exactly who else is going to be that desperate to take these expiring contracts for real live build upon young talent? And if the talent is good, whose to say that one of the other 10 teams with all their expiring contracts looking toward FA 2010 does not jump first?
The fall back is we will have cap space. Fine. But count me as one who feels cap space is seriously overrated. MN, in every sport, has never been a top destination for Free Agents. Not even in HOCKEY! The big FA’s will go to the prime places and watch – the secondary players will accept less to go to those places too!! Why? To win the Championship. This has been the trend the last few years – I see no reason for it not to continue.
Now if Kahn somehow got out of our obligation to give LAC that 1st round pick – I will change my opinion and be happy!! That is at least a buildable asset. But if the pick is not there – forget it. I hate it.
When does this milk expire?
JAF, your main reasons for hating the trade appear to be:
1. If rubio does not come over, wolves have a Flynn/Brown rotation at PG
2. Q-rich is not good, but you agree that Madsen and Smith are not good.
3. Expiring contracts are not that valuable
All reasonable points. But points 2 and 3 seem like a wash for the Wolves. If expiring contracts end up having no value, then this aspect of the trade did not hurt the Wolves. The transfer of Smith and Madsen for Q-Rich does not harm the wolves.
so, if Rubio actually does come over, does this make a good trade for you?
I am looking for trades
that yield positive, tangible assets. Foe me, positive tangible assets fall into 3 categories:
Young players (even if unproven),
draft choices
and veterans with significant trade value.
I am not so keen on trades that yield older players, expiring contracts and/or cap space.
I thought the Miller/Foye trade was OK – I thought Miller alone could have yielded something as good as the 5th pick in a mediocre draft at this year’s trade deadline. That it turned out to be Rubio is a gift from the Basketball gods – that was not how anyone saw it. Finally we get one!!
I think that's about right
Q-Rich is pretty much none of the above, except for his expiring contract. I’m not sure there was a burning need to “capitalize” on the Clips interest in Telfair.
I don’t know what other teams would have an interest in Telfair and lets face it, if Rubio is coming Telfair had to go. I really liked Bassy, probably my favorite on last years team but I am fine with Kahn freeing up some more space next year and evening out the roster. JAF, I would say that this trade actually points more towards the possibility that Ricky will be coming this year.
I think the reaction is over the top...
…but I am not sure how I would deal with it if Bobby Brown actually got significant minutes this year. I’m in the “Rubio is coming” camp though.
Cap space...
Can be used to take back salary in trades. They could trade a promising young player for an established vet and not worry about the cap implications. Even if the expirings just expire, whoever they got to fill their roster spots next year could be had on cheap, one-year deals, essentially preserving the cap space until someone offers them a good deal. As long as it’s not used unwisely, it’s better to spend cheaply than to give money to average players. No good team gives long-term or high-salary deals to average players.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think they're looking to get a 2010 free agent...
…rather they want to be the team that helps facilitate deals or jumps the market on RFAs and players that will be dumped. With the cap number possibly going down to near $50 mil, there are going to be more teams than we first expected to want to clear space. You may even have a situation where 35-45 win teams will look to slash payroll because they’re in no-man’s land with that cap number. I think there are going to be far more teams than the ones listed above who are going to be looking for expiring deals. Even if they don’t use them, they still have the benefit of clearing space and allowing for lopsided trades in the big free agency season. That’s big.
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www.canishoopus.com
You may even have a situation where 35-45 win teams will look to slash payroll because they’re in no-man’s land with that cap number.
“May even”? New Orleans basically made that choice this last year, or tried to. They finished 49-33 with one of the biggest salary numbers in the league.
As much as people want to see Shinn as a special, Calvin Griffith-ish NBA owner, essentially the Hornets extended themselves to make a run and came up short, so they wanted to get out from under that salary number.
In the facilitating role...
I wish Minny would’ve found a way to take Afflalo and Sharpe off of Detroit’s hands instead of Denver.
www.canishoopus.com
Yeah...
How did that work? Denver is over the cap, aren’t they? And they didn’t send anything back to Detroit. I guess that’s what the Wolves did last year with Philly, though.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
This is a great trade.
There is a lot to like about this trade. It lowers the number of players on our roster. Doesn’t get rid of the guys that are part of the future (Flynn, Rubio, Love, Jefferson-although I would gladly trade Jeffeson for a better defensive center like Biedrins and a high caliber 2 or 3), still leaves us with some quality role players (Ellington, Gomes, Brewer-let’s hope) and the rest will be gone anyway. We don’t need three more role players (I’ll give Maddog the benefit of the doubt) even if we do like them, which I do especially Bassy as a backup. Also, we are in a better position to make future trades for a great 3 or 2 and bring in a shot blocking center (I hope). I want likeable people as players, but that alone is not going to win a championship and an entire team of them hasn’t won us one so far.
Let's not forget
That the salary cap will likely be DEcreasing next year – so I’m not sure how you argue that expiring contracts won’t be valuable. It’s quite likely that MOST if not ALL team will need to shave off a few million to get under the cap, and quite a few (10 might be a reasonable guess) will be in serious dire straits to reduce payroll.
Certain people just have no time for "cap flexibility"
There’s a class of fans that simply will not accept cap space as a good.
Even if Rubio comes...
it would have been nice to have a PG with experience on the roster. This extra big expiring deal doesn’t seem that useful given all the expiring contacts they already have.
I can’t believe that I am the first to make this observation, but….doesn’t getting rid of Bassy translate to Rubio is on the way?
Talent-wise, this trade sucks…both Smith and Bassy are better players than Richardson. Richardson may be the biggest all time beneficiary of D’Antoni’s system…the guy parlayed one season of scoring into a big time contract and hasn’t been heard from since.
Fitwise, I can live with it. Neither guy was going to see enough minutes to be productive, especially Rhino if we truly “start running.” Always loved the Rhino, and thought he got a bad rap on the lack of defense. He was no worse than Jefferson.
Yup
I think this is definitely a good sign of Rubio coming over. Kahn is not going to fly all the way over to Spain thinking he can just charm his way into Joventut dropping the buyout amount. Look at all the signs that point to Rubio coming over: The meeting with Fegan and league officials in Vegas, Rubio’s camp dropping the lawsuit, Flynn playing off the ball for stretches in Vegas, Kahn’s trip to visit with Joventut officials, and now finally Telfair’s departure.
In terms of our starting lineup, I think it’s pretty much set at 5, 4, and 3. With Rubio coming over, we pretty much have to give him the starting slot, at least to begin the season. That leaves the starting 2-guard slot wide open. I really think that is the one position that will be decided in a Darwinian manner in training camp and the preseason. I think Flynn is going to be earmarked as our 6th man off the bench, subbing mostly for Rubio and also playing for stretches at the 2. That leaves Ellington, Q-Rich, and Brewer to fight it out for who starts at the 2. Not the most distinguished bunch, but let’s hope the competition brings out the best in these guys. Right now, the 2 is the big weak link along with the overall youth of our squad.
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 20, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
After all
it’s not like we are going to be contending this year anyway. This gets us a vet @ the 2 who (theoretically) can shoot and does eliminate some of the redundancy in the 4/5 spot. For where we expect the wolves to be next year, good trade.
Sometimes the obvious is hidden.
by frankenhoops on Jul 20, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I would be shocked now...
If Rubio did not come over this year. From what we know of Kahn so far, he doesn’t strike me as the type to make this deal, then just roll dice on RR being here.
He must very strongly think he’s going to be here…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
D'Antoni's system
Is why, given every other option available to us, I like this trade:
-We don’t hamstring ourselves in the future (as stated many times above).
-We balance out the roster, getting rid of what would have been minor role players (with the possible exception of Bassy) for a player that’ll get 15-20 minutes a night
-Of 2/3’s out there, it’s a low risk and low cost commitment for a guy who, according to DX, is “Very good on the catch and shoot, but extremely poor off the dribble”, hence if we’re switching to a running team and have Rublynn at the point, Richardson will probably put up better numbers than in a different system. I guess he’s not good defensively, but he’s supposed to be a great rebounder.
What I like best about it is the shrewdness of the strategy. Balancing the roster while getting rid of players who aren’t going to make a difference. Gaining more expirings for either a trade or FA. This trade will make you upset if you have your heart set on posting 35 wins or more this season. But if you’re building and setting up your assets and your roster to go out and get the pieces you really want/need, then this trade is fantastic. I don’t know if you could package Rhino/Maddog/Bassy for one player in other deal.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
I think I prefer Flubio. Rublynn sounds like the real reason Klove was in Vegas last week.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
There.
The new point guard combio is named “Ronny Flubio.”
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
Okay, okay, okay
“Jicky” is good and better than “Ronny,” but may mean something offensive in Spanish, or in Niagra Fallsease.
“Jocky” is better yet, and apropos for a gym rat. The TWolves 2-headed point guard is now known as “Jocky Flubio.”
I can see the post-game press conference already . . .
Moderator: Yes, question in the back for Mr. Kahn?
Stop n Pop: Yes, Stop n Pop from Canis Hoopus. Yo, Pork Chop—are you happy with the perimeter defense you’re seeing from Jocky Flubio?
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
Pseudonyms...
….are definitely the things people don’t think all the way through when they start a blog ;)
Sincerely,
Nate
PS: I used to run a political website that ultimately ran into the same problem with having a pseudonym. It’s hard to be taken seriously at a presser when you start out with “Yes, flappystacky21 from so-and-so.com…”
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www.canishoopus.com
:)
PoorDick isn’t a good way to start out a line of questioning. At least Stop-n-Pop is a step up from Mr. Sponge….which is what I posted under at my last site.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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(googles frantically for “Mr. Sponge” and “comments,” searching for unjustified smiting of the Minnesota Vikings, and professional football. And God. And America. And Chevrolet.)
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
a lesson
I learned when I got tired of having to spell “Wolvenclaw” all the time through my teen years :p
We got Rubio!
by Wim (Belgium) on Jul 21, 2009 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Our big...
….so-called claim-to-fame was a 2006 City Pages award for best lefty blog:
Minvolved is one of the newest lefty blogs on the scene, but it’s proving to be one of the most prolific. Started by the folks behind Clever Peasantry (now defunct) and MN Publius (www.mnpublius.com), Minvolved, as with our right-wing choice, sticks to the facts with a dash of humor, a modicum of dismissive attitude, and the occasional post on furry lobsters. Minvolved keeps a close eye on unraveling stories, such as the recent demise of the Center of the American Experiment, while combing dozens of local political blogs and out-state newspapers, eschewing the bloviating and hyperbole, for useful news and information. It has an unfortunate portmanteau for a name, but it’s a smart and comprehensive political site.
I also wrote for a site called The Cucking Stool for a short period of time.
Overall, Spongey was a bit of a character. Sort of an amped-up version of what I thought a lefty blogger should be. I wanted to turn him into satire near the end but it ended up being a joke that hit too close to home with too many people and that wasn’t what I intended. I now get my political kicks out by filling this site with subliminal radical leftist messages. ;)
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www.canishoopus.com
The Twolves
Are getting new Red jerseys?
What?!
Why am I so in favor of that? (far off look in eyes ensues)
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Gives Rubio incentive
I am not sure this means a deal has been worked out, but it will make Rubio more comfortable signing with the Wolves and paying the buyout knowing he only has to share minutes with Flynn.
As for the PG situation...
Even if Rubio doesn’t come over, couldn’t they make another deal or add one of the dozen Ollie-like FAs (Brevin Knight, Bobby Jackson, Royal Ivey, Flip Murray, Luther Head, Tyronn Lue, Anthony Carter) available? They were probably going to sign a SG if they didn’t make any more moves, and now they don’t have to do that unless Richardson is moved again before the season.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 4:24 PM CDT reply actions
I think Madsen was mostly liked by the “casual” fans. The ones that watch the games but nothing much else.
My feeling doesn’t agree with the talent bit. I have a hard time getting that Bassy + Smih = Richardson talent wise. Though your stats are probably right.
The balancing out the roster doesn’t really strike me as important since we could have gotten someone like Richardson through FA. Though numbers-wise that would have made a worse situation than what we have now.
So all in all, an “ok” trade though I hate letting Bassy go … on the other hand, that’s what Kahn was brought here to do so good job.
We got Rubio!
I had friends who were Madsen fans.
I never got it. The fact that he couldn’t catch shocked me. I can understand being subpar at a lot of things, but he could rarely catch a pass when spoonfed under the hoop.
"so, good job."?
Are you serious? This, to me, seems like more of the same frenzied shake up that Kahn has run since day one, despite his famous “out think, out work” promise. Bassy will prove – sorry, has already proven – to be twice the player that Richardson ever will be, and Rhino is not only underrated defensively but also was a nice complement to Big Al with his under-the-rim finesse – who cares if he’s undersized and doesn’t involve his teammates when he racks up both clutch baskets and scoring percentages like he did last season.
As for Kahn being keen to “capitalize now while the Clippers still are interested” in Telfair, why would he think that interest would evaporate from one week to the next. The truth of the matter is that Rubio is NOT signed and while Flynn showed well in Summer league there are dozens of others who have done the same before (Blake Ahearn to name one) and then disappeared into oblivion. I’m not knocking Flynn; on the contrary, good for him! I do think, though, that Bassy out there he would have done as much, and maybe even helped more towards the coaches’ evaluating the other talent on the roster.
In Washington the fan base is already talking about how Kahn was played for a sucker. The same will probably happen how in L.A.C. country.
The bottom line is that Minny fans really have little idea of what they had this past season. In my books, The 2008-2009 T-Wolves was a team that played with heart and kept competitive despite having to redefine itself three times (some serious adjustment times after Blake Ahearn’s and Corey Brewer’s departure in the fall and then post-Al’s injury with the consequent need to up both the tempo and the players’ conditioning ). When they were finally running and scoring to their potential (they hit 62% one game), they then suffered some really lousy luck in struggling with both injuries and flu.
But Miller was right when he stated it on several occasions: there would be no sympathy from any of the fans for what the team had to go through. The staggering thing is that these same “fans” are all too happy to contemplate up to three years in building a contender, when they wouldn’t even wait two to see how the K-Love, Big Al, Miller, Foye, Bassy, and Gomes core would work out, given a fair chance.
Am I unhappy? Yes, extremely… even to the point of throwing in the towel as a T-Wolves fan. But I’m sure that pales in comparison to how the remaining key players like Al Jefferson and Kevin Love must be feeling right now.
As far as Rubio or Flynn being potential super stars? Well, good luck with both of them… seems pipe dreams are easy to sell in Minny.
P.S. I fully expect that Pek will now go as well, as “fan wisdom” seems to dictate what Kahn does more than any serious analysis or talent evaluation. And no, I’m not in the least impressed by financial side of things – Bassy and Rhino were tremendous bargains while they were here. (Madson, of course, was grossly overpaid, though finally coming off the books next year; Richardson, on the other hand, will be grossly overpaid for two more years.)
Well, he won't be grossly overpaid for 2 more years by the Wolves
as his current contract only has one more year left. Please at least be accurate.
You know, I can sympathize with not being happy about the trades made—though I don’t agree. What I can’t understand is the pining for the good old days of the roster of the past 2 years that failed so badly. Sure, we’d know more if Al didn’t get injured—seeing how that group finished the year would have been worthwhile information to have. But they were losing before he got hurt, and I just did not see the potential in that roster.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 20, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
Everyone got to see who these young players are and aren’t. Telfair got chance after chance to prove he could stick a jumper; he didn’t do it. Miller had the green light all season and sat at the intersection with his foot on the brake. Foye showed the definition of basketball insanity as he kept driving right and expected that this time, his shot wouldn’t get blocked. Smith got minutes from his rookie season on and was elevated to the starting lineup despite his inability to defend or be a consistent scoring threat. All of them are getting a chance with other teams that better suits their strengths and weaknesses, and the Wolves get the chance to re-make the team while holding onto their most promising players.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Art
I like your takes since they’re minority opinions and you’re passionate about them.
A few points
1. It’s quite possible that the Wolves traded away 2 of the 3 best players in this deal.
2. This team needs minutes for Love, Flynn, and Rubio who all have more upside than anyone traded away.
3. Richardson’s an expiring- if he wasn’t this would be an insane deal.
4. As far as Pekovic- I doubt he has much value as it’s unclear when he might come over. If Kahn trades him for a 2nd round pick- then this is a waste (Not that it’ll happen)
5. Fans are generally unreasonable in regard to expectations. Considering the roster at the time of the KG Trade till this off-season (The Front Office did a rather solid job). I tend to think McHale’s ouster was more Business related than Basketball related.
6. Neither Bassy or Smith are better than 9th men on a really good team. Although players as good as Q-Rich could be found on the D-League select team
7. It’s hard to fully evaluate until we see what’s done with the Cap Space.
8. I’m not exactly knee- jerk as I’ve defended Flynn/Rubio and Jefferson/Love pairings as much as anyone. The problem with the Foye,Miller, Gomes, Brewer, Love, Jefferson core seemed to be one of upside. Players like Foye, Miller, and Gomes probably aren’t going to get any better. This doesn’t even mention Miller being gone after 2010. As far as Flynn/Rubio who knows how good they’re be but their skill-set offers more long-term upside. The Wolves also get the added benefit of 1 more high lottery pick to add to their core.
by Jose Cordoba on Jul 20, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Not nitpicking
But your comment in point #6 brings up a question I’ve had for awhile (and I’m not targeting your point specifically, just using it as an opportunity to ask the question):
Seems like a lot of people think that there are a fair number of NBA players who are no better than D-League select players. If that’s true, then why aren’t we signing those guys? Or is the use of ‘D-League select’ as a comparison to current (albeit marginal) NBA players a little bit hyperbolized in order to make a point?
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Hard to Say
Could we find better Defensive wings in the D-League than Richardson? Yes- although he’s not terrible in this area?
Is it that hard to find someone to match his shooting numbers and other skills (Limited passer,, can’t take anyone of the dribble, occasional post-ups)? No
Is my statement hyperbole? Slightly- but if you could give a look to Othyus Jeffers or Q. Richardson for a season. I tend to think you’d want to see the long-term potential of a D-Leaguer like Jeffers more.
by Jose Cordoba on Jul 21, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Now, of all times, you would consider throwing in the towel?
If I were a towel-throwing sort it would have happened years ago, not after a re-balancing salary dump trade that contained zero impact players. To each his own, but I’d urge you to stick around for a while.. Good times might actually be on the horizon.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
good comment
I think artreddin is accurate, especially when he says fans seem more than happy to not give any combination of players a chance to work together. Miller has a out-of-character year and he’s gone. Craig Smith (continually derided for being ‘redundant’) just keeps contributing and he’s gone. Bassy has improved immensely as a playmaker and he’s gone. Even Foye outlasted all the folks who wanted McCants over him, tried to rise above injuries and coaches who didn’t really know what they wanted from him, plus unfair comparisons to Roy (after all, he had nothing to do with that trade) and he’s gone. These might be more palatable if fans could see some return. The return here is what, exactly? Short untested rookie Flynn? Streaky gunner Richardson? I posit that had McHale proposed these moves he would have been mocked. There better be some awfully good developments coming because as someone who has attended games since the first year of the franchise, I am not all that willing to grant Kahn a 5-7 year plan to become competitive, esopecially with constant churning of the roster. Posters on blogs like these like to see the player movement because they fancy themselves like chessmasters after the perfect gambit. More general fans will lose interest if there is no one to identify with or root for on your team. Kahn makes everyone nervous (player and fan). Perhaps the only player jerseys that should be sold at games this year should be ones with only blanks for names. Kahn knows best.
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 21, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I've got as much a soft spot for Craig and Bassy as anyone, but let's be serious.
SNP got it right in the initial comment “this trade contained exactly zero world-beaters”.
This team right now has 4 key players: Rubio, Flynn, Love, Al. We need to see this year how they play together and develop/continue to develop. For a playoff contending team Craig and Bassy were scenery, you can find guys who replace what they do.
I get that people hate Q/his game and that Bassy/Telfair/Cookie were all likeable guys but let’s not be so short-sighted. It seems like people have become so used to building for a 40-50 win team that the thought of trying to build for a championship is too much to handle. Will Kahn actually build a legit contender? That remains to be seen but his collection of assets and positioning of the team has been right on par with what he has stated he is trying to do. He has held onto the young core who will lead this team, collected trade-able assets, and cleared cap room for use in what will be a very busy summer in 2010.
FWIW, Bassy was my favorite player last year but he is very replaceable. Cookie will have a better chance to play in LA and while the guy we got back is pretty bad, at least he’s not another PF. I just don’t get how keeping the status quo would keep the “general fans” more interested. All of those types that I know think the T’Wolves are a laughing stock. After getting Rubio & Flynn there are at least some rumblings from them about the future.
Disagree
Posters on blogs like these like to see the player movement because they fancy themselves like chessmasters after the perfect gambit.
It has to be purposeful. I’m not saying these guys weren’t good stories and good people. But Kahn has laid out a plan for this summer: getting cap space and potential players by ridding the team of long-term deals while holding onto Jefferson, Love, Rubio, and Flynn. If these trades weren’t reducing the team’s future salary obligations, then you’d be right. He evaluated that the players who were dealt weren’t good long-term investments; this isn’t just rearranging for the sake of rearranging. I think most of the people on this blog in favor of these deals would say that they’ll have a different opinion if the team doesn’t have a more-talented roster in 2 years.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 21, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
PSR
Here is the problem – what potential players did he get with this trade? Kahn admitted in the teleconference that Q-Rich was not necessarily going to stay. The imbalance in the roster that needed to be “corrected” was created by Kahn trading 2 wings for 3 forwards – of which none is expected to be a contributor in the long run.
Rubio is not here. I am still of the opinion that he will likely not be here in the very near future. I know someone who has played in the Spanish league – the whole player contract situation is far different that in the US. There are still several significant hurdles.
So why give up the only experienced PG on the team, a 24 yr old that showed some significant growth last year, right now? Why not wait until you are absolutely sure Rubio is coming? Why not see if a contending team has an injury that might make them want to “rent” a point guard? (Think Orlando last year) Why not see who your coach is and find out how he wants to play?
Now if LAC wanted Telfair bad enough to give us back our pick, then I would say “Go for it”. But for Q-Rich? Ugh.
I really think Kahn is making a play for a big name #1 type player. (Recall that he is on record as saying Jefferson is a #2 player and Love a #4) He is gathering cash to make a splash. I think he is going to be sorely disappointed when no one chooses MN.
Going for #1
I agree that Kahn is looking for that #1 player. It seems more than likely that some “roster imbalance” might temporarily be evident while bringing that player into the Wolve’s lair.
Now, in the best of all possibles, he has already located one in Ricky Rubio. Be clear, I’m not saying that Ricky will be that #1 player in his first couple/three years in the league, but his size and skill could gel with experience into something special. And thus, some roster imbalance is OK.
I won’t worry about “roster imbalance” until training camp opens.
I'm not saying he did...
But this is a move to increase their ability to facilitate that deal, either now or next year. Next year, they could potentially have Jefferson, Love, Rubio, and Flynn, all of whom will have more value than anyone on this roster from last year or the present. They also have a top Euro prospect in Pekovic and potentially three top-20 picks in a loaded draft. Then, throw in the cap space.
This is why he’s not necessarily going for a guy who has to choose the Wolves. The cap space isn’t just used to sign free agents outright; it’s used in deals. Teams will be looking to shed salary, and having cap space puts them in a good position to get a player in exchange for that cap space. There isn’t choice involved here; I’m guessing a minority of fans think that James, Wade, Bosh, or Nowitzki will be a Wolf in 2010. But if Kahn’s willing to take on a bad contract for an All-Star player, they will have the cap space to do it, and it’s not far fetched that they’ll have those opportunities.
As for the Wiz trade, you obviously don’t think it was a good one. Since we don’t agree on that, it’s not worth arguing over the roster imbalance. And Rubio? You’re entitled to your opinion, but most public signs are that there’s a decent chance he’ll be here, which says something since the media has to this point jumped on every potential cue that he won’t be here. Either way, Smith doesn’t complement Jefferson and Love, and honestly, he’s a streak scorer who’s only contribution to an offense occurs when his shot is falling, which isn’t consistently enough to justify playing him with either guy. As for Telfair, he’ll eventually become redundant with Rubio and Flynn. Maybe Rubio doesn’t come over this year, but it’s still a move that eventually would’ve had to be made. If Rubio and Flynn are problematic, adding Telfair to the mix doesn’t help.
It seems like those who don’t like the trades are making assumptions about those who are okay with them. Speaking as someone who’s okay with them, the reason is because players like Miller, Telfair, Smith, and Foye aren’t special players. I’m not saying Rubio or Flynn are, but they’re more highly-regarded than any of those guys were when drafted, and none of those guys exactly exceeded expectations. If the Wolves don’t get a #1 star and either Rubio or Flynn doesn’t work out, Kahn could easily go get guys as good as those four for a similar price. Bottom-line, these are low-risk moves with a potentially high reward.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 21, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
but I agree
that the current roster turnover could be confusing to the general fan. Except that the “common fan” stopped coming to the Target Center. McHale’s lineup of Jefferson, Foye, Miller, and Love just doesn’t generate any excitement — or victories.
The “star” players who are now gone (Miller and Foye) were turned into Ricky Rubio — who will likely put ten times more butts into the Target Center seats than Miller, Foye, and Jefferson combined. I’m pretty sure that all of us will not pine for Sebastian Telfair when Jonny Flynn hits the floor. In terms of enticing the “common fan” back, David Kahn has made the most of his opportunities.
Flynn would have been here anyway
All four of this year’s draft picks were the result of some astute front office maneuvering before Kahn showed up on the scene. Giving away the 18th while impact players like DeJuan Blair were still around (God! Did the Spurs ever get a steal!) made little sense.
Are you serious?….
The bottom line is that Minny fans really have little idea of what they had this past season. In my books, The 2008-2009 T-Wolves was a team that played with heart and kept competitive despite having to redefine itself three times (some serious adjustment times after Blake Ahearn’s and Corey Brewer’s departure….
Uh, if you’re wanting to call into question the serious-osity of someone’s post, you might not want to go the route of pining for last year’s gutty team that endured the devastating, pivotal loss of Blake Ahearn. You’ll get a healthy debate on Brewer, for that matter, despite the pre-Kahn accepted wisdom that he was about to come into his own. (Any second now, really, truly, he will calm down and learn to handle the ball. No. Just wait.) But Blake Ahearn??
(In Washington, incidentally, fans have done some pretty extreme, convoluted rationalization after they picked up two mediocrities for the pick that turned into Rubio. We can all go over to BulletsForever and witness that for ourselves, so you really don’t need to feel empowered to describe it to us. The starting point is “Rubio will never play for them, so they got no value at all.” Which reasoning is ridiculous, but then they’re licking their wounds.)
about Blake Ahearn
Yeah, sorry, that was just a pet peave of mine. I know that there were much more important adjustments going on in Wittman’s trying to fit in all the new pieces from the summertime and having a hard time in instruction. Nevertheless, Brewer was a starter and Blake was coming off a tremendous Summer League (as Marco Belinelli had done in the previous year) and showed an outstanding 3P%; I couldn’t for the life of me understand FO choosing Kevin Ollie over him. Blake’s parting comments are worth looking at:
“The Timberwolves took an interest in Ahearn and gave him a shot as their third point guard. Though he played well – averaging 7.8 points in 11.6 minutes per game – he was beaten out by veteran Kevin Ollie.
“I was caught off guard,” Ahearn said. "I thought I was doing everything right, but what it came down is we were two completely different players. With Sebastian (Telfair) being out, a veteran was more what was on their mind.
“But everything happens for a reason,” he added. “… I’m just excited to be here. If you work hard enough, good things eventually happen.” "
BTW, he had a decent season in the D League – even ended up co-MVP in their All Star game.
Another NET NICE move
Trades: Five guys not part of the long term plan out the door for a potential superstar and one guy not part of the long term plan. I like David’s trades so far.
Draft: A good draft looks better after Summer League.
Coaching Search: Process seems orderly and complete. I have confidence the choice will be a good one, made well.
Go, David, Go!
Missing Madsen, Telfair & the Rhino
While no one is beyond being traded, especially on a poor team like the Wolves, lets not trash the players who are leaving. Madsen is, by far, my 80 year old mother’s favorite player. She’s met him more than once. (And as a season ticket holder for more than ten years she probably has been to more Wolves games than most of the posters here.) Of course, his playing ability is nil, even she recognizes that. Bassy had a GOOD year last year. As was pointed out, he was likely our most consistent performer much of the year. And I hope someone points out to me the next time the Wolves get a player as productive out of the second round as the Rhino. Second rounders like him are truly rare for Minny.
insta-armchair analysis
1. I think this move in a weird way is more a reaction to Flynn than Rubio, after the former’s Summer League performance.
a. if Rubio comes over, frees up minutes in the rotation for Rubio AND Flynn.
if Rubio doesn’t come over—this trade speaks volumes as to the faith they have in Flynn (whether that’s founded or unfounded is a different question of course; I think it’s founded except for the Rookie Wall).2. I’ll miss the Rhino if nothing else than for the designation of “only decent 2nd round pickup in the McHale era.”
3. And in a bittersweet moment, a moment of silence for the end of the KG era—everyone who once played with him is gone. Now, onward!
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 20, 2009 4:41 PM CDT reply actions
#3...
…well put. I’ve already started a post about how this closes the books on two things: roy/foye and kg.
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cookie was freds pick not mchale.
by revprodeji on Jul 20, 2009 6:56 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
McHale's era
…without getting pedantic.
Actually I’ll up the ante—the Rhino was the greatest 2nd round pick in the history of the Wolves (unless I’m missing anyone from pre-95?)
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 20, 2009 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Doug West
4th-most points in franchise history. Was team’s leading scorer during the Laettner-Rider-Chuck Person era.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Doug West
My favorite T-Wolves player as a young child.
by oblivionspocket on Jul 20, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Whom did you like
as an old child?
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
Tom Gugliotta
and why can’t I differentiate between being a young child and simply a child with a little adjective?
by oblivionspocket on Jul 21, 2009 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I would be willing to guess
that a ten year old Greg Oden looked like an old child.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
They did a Doug West night late this year
I attended, and asked Doug to forgive us for the abrupt trade up to Vancouver. He wasn’t sure it was in his power to dispel the karma from that one, which was really McHale’s first sour note.
Not sure that we need to review trades from the mid-90's, but you didn't like that move?
Peeler’s scoring helped them give the Sonics a run in the playoffs that year.
The trade was decent on the face of it
But West was the original Wolf, the only remaining face from that inaugural season. The callous way things were handled was rough on Doug, who turned out to be having a problem with alcoholism…. The whole thing sort of shook loose the idea of the franchise as a big family.
Marbury mentioned that, once, when he described why he wanted out. Said if the team could treat Doug West that way, then everyone had to remember it was just a business.
Some initial karmic damage was done that trading deadline. McHale, too, had already overpaid West in his contract extension — so this was perhaps the first consequence of that little tendency.
OK, I hear what you are saying.
I never heard that Marbury comment, but remember feeling terrible for Doug. The Wolves were on the upswing and Vancouver seemed a degree worse than the Wolves had been. I remember hearing about his alcoholism/depression too and that he was out of the league shortly thereafter.
Any employee certainly looks to see how people are treated by management (here’s hoping Kahn is doing what he needs to behind the scenes given the roster turnover). I did think that Peeler was a great fit on the court at that time, and the team had great energy in that series against that Sonics team that had been a perennial contender.
Kahn conference call...
- made move now to balance out roster and to capitalize on Clips’ interest in Telfair, which he wasn’t sure would last
- doesn’t indicate Rubio will come over this year but the presence of the two PGs on the roster restricts his ability to get playing time and probably reduces his PT
- adding more vets or not will happen after a head coach is hired and consulted
- doesn’t have anything to do with summer league guys (Siler, Kurz)
- Richardson isn’t necessarily going to stay
- they’re not done
- trip to Spain costs the search 4-5 days
- has been calling those who aren’t getting second interviews and is almost done; will be calling the second-interview guys late this week and early next week (either 3 or 4)
- coach should be hired by end of month or beginning of next month
- not necessarily going to meet with Rubio but will be meeting with club officials
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 20, 2009 4:51 PM CDT reply actions
Very decent of him
To call the guys who won’t be hired.
by oblivionspocket on Jul 20, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The biggest reason I will miss the Rhino
He is the type of guy who makes other people enjoy their jobs. He makes them enjoy their long flights and bus rides by keeping things fun. I always heard how he joked around with everyone on the team and kept things light hearted. The remaining players from last year are probably looking at the roster wondering what to expect for their own futures. All of your best friends are out the door except for basically Big Al, Love, Gomes, and Brewer (I refuse to count Brian Cardinal). I think more than anyone else, losing Craig Smith and to a lesser extent Telfair, makes these guys realize this.
Here’s to hoping that these guys are more interested in winning than enjoying what they do! I think keeping Smith around gives you the best of both worlds.
I also liked watching Craig Smith
However, any increase in Love’s minutes this year were going to come directly from Smith’s 20MPG. Same with Rubio/Telfair, and Madsen would have 60 DNP’s this year on the Wolves bench. It may actually be good for these guys going to the Clippers. If you look at their roster it means as much if not more playing time for all of them (unless Rubio is not here). None of these guys were going to play for the Wolves beyond this year, so cut the cord and put them somewhere they are wanted/needed.
I was a little surprised they could not get more for Bassy/Smith, but not much more.
at least Kahn put them where's its warm and by the beach...
Like Rumblebee, I would have thought that there were better players available for Bassy/Smith — but maybe trading two expiring contracts for one trumps that.
Good write-up
I pretty much agree that this is a good, but minor move. I also liked Bassy, but it would not have been a good situation having a decent 24-year old point guard on the same roster as two much-younger-yet point guards who think they are future stars. It’s bad locker room dynamics no matter how you slice it. Bassy will make a good backup to Boom Dizzle, and if history is any indicator, he’ll probably be starting 20+ games when Davis is on the IR.
The way Kahn talks, it seems reasonable to expect aggressive trade talks at this year’s deadline.
Madsen will be missed in the locker room and community.
yeah
This is certainly a good trade for Telfair. Despite the Clippers being an awful franchise, Telfair should get some serious playing time behind and alongside Baron Davis. He also gets to play with Blake Griffin and NOT with Zach Randolph. This is Bassy’s chance to get one more solid NBA contract. Good luck, Bassy!
To his credit, Kahn described it from Bassy's point of view, too
In his conference call, Kahn led with the “Telfair’s playing time was going to fall, and that wasn’t positive for him” angle.
Money from the Clippers
Does anybody know if the Wolves are getting some cash in this deal. Supposedly the QRich/Mlicic deal had the Knicks sending $2 mil to Memphis because QRich is overpaid. I wonder if this cash is following him around the NBA? The Wolves are already ahead based on what Bassy would have been paid to sit on the bench in 2010/11, but the Wolves may also be breaking even or coming out ahead this year as well.
Not Buying the Twin PG Offense
Richardson might well make it a 4-trade off-season, but I just don’t see Flynn & Rubio playing on the court together for a ton of minutes.
I think there might be a trade exception
that was created for one of the teams in regard to Q. Or at least, I hope so, because then it means that in theory, the Wolves could trade him back to that team for his own trade exception.
Rooting for a Rubio Revolucion since roughly 10:20 a.m. on June 24th, 2009
C'mon Jerry
Did he seriously not even know how to pronounce the name of Rubio’s Spanish team?! Way to earn some credibility with your sources, Zgoda.
Noticed that too
Kahn’s gotten it right when I’ve heard him say it. Mr. Zgoda didn’t get called on that, though, which was kind.
While we're on the subject....
How about those Clippers?
Griffin, E Gordon, A Thornton, D Jordan, Kaman, Camby, B Davis, Rhino, Bassy….can we really call them a laughingstock anymore? I mean seriously….I would kill for that roster.
If they can somehow coax a pulse out of Davis, that is a playoff team.
let me be clear....
coax a pulse out of BARON Davis….and choke the life out of RICKY Davis.
The solution, clearly: a cage match
You get Baron’s blood up by offering Ricky as sacrificial slaughter.
Yeah, they can make the playoffs.
But you’re willing to murder for cheap. You may wish to see a therapist or join the USMC.
I hate Pod Six. I don't even know why we have a Pod Six. Total suck pod.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Jul 20, 2009 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Gordon and Griffin
Should be groomed as the two top options, with Baron and Kaman chipping in double figures PPG as well. I don’t see Thornton’s value in this lineup. I think if you add a Shane Battier/Bruce Bowen type defender/floor spacer at the 3, this team would be extremely well positioned. But yeah, if you slapped any other team name other than The Clippers on this lineup, most of us would be quite envious of that core of young players. Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan (who we could have had!!!) are all very complimentary young pieces that fit neatly and purely into the 2, 4, and 5 slots. And Craig Smith doesn’t look so bad playing next to long shot blockers like Camby, Kaman, and Jordan. His downfall was that he was always paired with defensively challenged players like Jefferson and Love at Center.
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 20, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Clippers talent
The Clippers seem to often have a lot of talent. Picking so high in the draft over and over helps with that. It somehow doesn’t seem to translate into victories. I will believe it when I see it.
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 21, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Hollinger against...
John Hollinger tweeted that he doesn’t like move…Does he think Rhino is Carlos Boozer? Getting out of paying Telfair $2.7 mil in 2010-’11 makes this deal well worth it.
This is one of those times...
….where he may have a point in terms of talent but not in terms of long-term roster usefulness. Ultimately, quibbling about a backup 4 on a 24-win team with 2 better power forwards/centers doesn’t really add up to much. With Pecherov and Songaila it’s not like he would have seen a ton of action anyway.
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Smith had a good PER, so this is no surprise. He seems to buy further and further into his stat every year.. I like him and enjoy PER for what it is, but I can’t help but wonder if he’s eventually going to become one of those crazy old guys who never leaves his rocking chair and spends all his time mumbling about how player x should have won the MVP in 2012 because his PER was 3 pts higher.
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
I think the daily articles killed Hollinger
As recently as the 07-08 season, he had an above-average grasp on what every team was trying to do. But this last year he seems to be solely going with the ESPN flow on events. Hopefully he’ll go back to twice a week with better columns (they had pretty much given up on PER Diem by the end of the season), but I’m not holding my breath.
he used to be a video watching freak
and his yearly “Basketball Prospectus” was aces but like you, I think he’s a victim of his own success.
I think the big problem...
…for Hollinger is that ESPN expects him to crank out several “Everything you thought you knew about X is wrong” columns per week. There simply isn’t enough good material to carry that sort of column and it ends up being nothing more than “this guy has a higher PER than that guy”.
The World's Leading Exporter of Small Area Quickness
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How much is PER reduced
when a player 4" inches taller at your position reaches over you for an offensive rebound and slams the ball home? How about when you’re on offense and can’t get a shot off because you are being guarded by someone 4" taller?
As they say, numbers lie, and liars use numbers. Stats are important, but games are not won on paper. Jack Morris was the dominant pitcher of the ‘80s, and Don Sutton was barely an All-Star who had a long career on great teams. Sutton is in the Hall of Fame and Morris is waiting. Morris was the best pitcher on three different championship teams. I’ve never seen an intangible show up on a stat line. I like Craig Smith but he is a limited player.
Let's not start in with the Jack Morris stuff
Morris was nowhere close to a dominant pitcher. He had dominant run support. He had one extremely high-profile dominant game. He had a career which happened to fall nicely around an arbitrary grouping of seasons (“the 80’s”). That’s the extent of his HOF candidacy. He’s nowhere close to the pitcher Blyleven was.
Name a better pitcher during the entire 80's than Morris
I agree you can pick time periods of convenience (as I said originally “numbers lie”), but there were many pitchers whose careers wrapped around the 80’s and none (including Blyleven) was as good during that stretch. I gladly consider any you may think were better.
I also agree Bert belongs in the HOF, another example of numbers lying. His detractors claim he lost too many games. He lost over 50 games by a 1-0 score. If his offense scores a lousy 2 runs in half these games he wins about 310 games and is in the HOF ten years ago. I doubt Sutton lost twenty 1-0 games, too much offense with the Dodgers.
getting way off topic here, but
Stieb and Saberhagen for starters…
Um, what?
“He lost over 50 games by a 1-0 score.”
Um. No. If he lost even a dozen games by a score of 1-0 I would be surprised, but you’d still have to convince me that was as unusual percentage.
He maybe lost 50 games by 1 run (e.g. 4-3), but again, you’d still have to prove he lost an unusual percentage of games given how many he gave up.
My belief on Rik Aalbert was that he had a lot of games where he gave up 0, 1, 2 runs and a lot of games where he gave up 4, 5, 6 runs. He won mostly when he should have and lost mostly when he should have. HOFer? Yup. Screwed his whole career by poor bullpens and crappy offenses? Not so much. Probably a little, maybe cost him those crucial 13 wins. But losing more than 50 games 1-0? Um, no. He isn’t in the Hall because he was never dominant for a dominant team. He played for too many teams in too many media markets. He was injured too often. He never got tagged as a ‘future HOFer’ early in his career when he was unbelievable in the way somebody like Sutton did, so nobody tracked his progess up the win charts and K charts (he did retire as 3rd on the K list after all).
maybe Songaila will contribute
but Pecherov, not so much. Basically he’s a simply a spot up jump shooter in a position (PF) where strong rebounding and defense is necessary.
Pech may be that marginal
But his rebounding rate, come to that, was the highest on Washington’s team last year.
He shoots from range and he does board. That’s about it. Oh, and his shooting is perfectly arbitrary in its timing, and he never moves the ball back once he’s touched it. There: the complete picture.
Still not sure I understand the lamenting of losing 3 barely-role players from a 20 win team. Millionaires working 6 months of the year who could never pick any of us out of a line-up but we’re sad they’re going because they’re “nice guys”? And we know that how?
by Brian Fantana II on Jul 20, 2009 10:08 PM CDT reply actions
i miss Bassy alreddy mayn i dont thank we got CLOSE ta equal value
but we did juss draft 2 thowed PGs so whut can u do mayn i luv bassy doe no homo
MAYN HOL UP!
I like the trade
I think it’s exciting to know Flynn will get a ton of minutes at point, but I also think we need a big 7-footer; an intimidator.
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