Ends of Eras, the Mark Madsen Open Thread

OK, now that we have had some time to think about the Clips/Wolves trade, I would like to add one important item to the discussion: The trade marks the official end of two important eras of recent Wolves history--The KG age and the Roy/Foye debacle. Both eras died when Mark Madsen was sent to LA.
The first point is obvious: Mad Dog was the last player on the Wolves roster to play with KG. He is the last remaining Wolves player who actually laced it up with the greatest player in Wolves history. In just two short years, the Wolves have undergone a complete roster makeover. I can't think of too many rosters in the league that have undergone such a radical makeover in the last two seasons. Everyone is gone.
The second point is a bit less obvious. Madsen, while being a fine citizen, was involved in one of the darkest moments of recent NBA history: He was the key actor in the greatest example of tanking in league history. In the last game of the 05/06 season, Madsen jacked up 7 three pointers, missing them all. The game was remarkable on two fronts. First, the Wolves were in the midst of a grand tank-a-thon, sitting out KG for multiple games and fielding a starting lineup of Eddie Griffin (RIP), Justin Reed, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks and Marc Blount against the Griz in a last-ditch attempt to keep the top-10 protected pick owed to the Clippers in the Marko Jaric trade. Second, the Griz were trying to lose a game in an attempt to avoid playing the 60-22 Dallas Mavs in the first round of the playoffs. In an overtime game, the Griz did not play a single one of their starters over 25 minutes while sitting Pau Gasol. Madsen ended the game shooting 1-15 from the floor with the aforementioned 7 three pointers. His 15 shots were a career high. Memphis also sat out Eddie Jones while the Wolves gave Ricky Davis the night off. The Wolves lost the game and were guaranteed their first round draft choice.
As we all know, the first round choice was then used on Brandon Roy...who was immediately traded to the Portland TrailBlazers for Randy Foye. To his credit, coach Dwane Casey understood the stakes:
"There's been so much doom and gloom around here," Casey said. "There is a rainbow at the end of the storm."
The rainbow for Casey was Roy. Unfortunately for him, Kevin McHale stood in the way of him keeping Roy as well as him staying on as head coach in the following season.
Actually, Madsen's departure hasn't completely ended the Roy/Foye era. Memphis' leading scorer on that pathetic night was Brian Cardinal, who jacked up 18 points against the lowly Wolves. The front office also has some reminants from the night:
Fred Hoiberg received a standing ovation between the first and second quarters. Hoiberg retired on Monday to join the Timberwolves' front office, deciding not to risk coming back from open heart surgery he had before the season started.
Whatever the case, hats off to David Kahn for doing all he can to right the Wolves' sad history with Ms. Karma. With Madsen and Randy Foye out the door, the Wolves have turned the corner on Roy/Foye and KG. Here's to a new era. We'll have to wait and see what happens to Cardinal and Hoiberg.
Finally, the trade now means that Corey Brewer is the longest tenured Wolf on the squad. How things change.
Until later.
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The most interesting thing I have noticed in the last 24 hours
is an underlying angst about a trade which on the surface of it is quite innocuous.
On one level a quite reasonable analysis exists:
Three players with little or no upside who are logjammed at their positions have been moved on for a player who fills a position of need and is an expiring deal to boot.
But the subtext from some is loud and clear
These three guys worked hard and loved the team. Their reward is to be swapped for a douchebag. Who do I follow now?
How important to the organisation are the faces that sit on the end of the bench? Clearly fans want players who they know bleed for the team just like they do and are solid citizen to boot. How do they identify with a guy who has been traded 3 times in 8 weeks or a group of guys only good enough to be packaged off for another guy who came in a package who was traded for a guy 15 minutes after he was drafted?
It is certainly a fact of life in pro sport in the US, but the Wolves need to start winning a hearts and minds battle with their fans as well. It shouldn’t stop a trade but it may give pause for thought in it’s contents.
It is interesting that the KG era is over. But just think how many guys Kevin Love has seen leave in 12 months? Ten? By my count there are only four guys there that started with him. I’m sure everyone is professional about it, but how do build a team, as opposed to a collection of guys who are going to spend 82 games together.
For the record, I think it was a reasonable trade. But I do think future trades need to land us something more substantially in the way of playing talent. There is only so much cap space a team can reasonably use.
Only cowards pray for rain.
You raise some interesting points
As much as we “root for laundry,” the truth is that fans don’t want constant turnover. While many might have liked some or all of the guys the Wolves traded away, though, they by and large didn’t like them enough to actually buy tickets. I think you have to wait a while but the second reaction you cite will fade as fans get to know the newer players. Hopefully, Jonny Flynn can play. He apparently has a likeable public personality—fans will gravitate to him if he can play at all. Love is also appealing. Rubio, once he’s here and doing his thing and talking in that Spanish accent will be liked. Fans will find players to follow.
I think you have to view this as a 1 year+ project after which the pace of player movement will, hopefully, slow considerably, at which point they will be able to grow into a team and develop a public face that appeals to the fans in addition to winning games.
As for your last point, yes. At some point the cap space has to be used to useful, and how many good players are they going to be able to get no matter how many expirings or how much cap space they have. I think the execution of that is really going to tell the story of Kahn.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 21, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
You hit on the key...
Selling tickets. Having good guys only gets a team so far if that team’s not winning. And they do need to use the cap space wisely; I don’t want them spending it next summer if it’s not spent wisely.
As for roster turnover, I think a fan has to expect that at least 3-4 guys each year will be gone. It won’t be like this year every year, but even the champs replace at least 1 guy.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 21, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions
New blood
I think it’s really pretty sweet how much appreciation and respect is rolling out for Bassy, Maddog, and Rhino. They’re all, in their way, classic Minnesota players—not the best, but used determination, energy, hard work, and never-say-die attitude to contribute anyways. The Twins are the typical exemplifiers of this, but we love our underdogs here.
I don’t think, though, that losing them for a d-bag, as you put it, is really going to make much of a difference in the grand scheme one way or another, and that includes to guys like Brewer and Love. The Twolves have been a bad team for 3 years now, and despite their contributions and loyalties to them, guys like Love and Al know that their lives and careers will be better if Kahn surrounds them with better players. Doesn’t mean you can’t remain friends with the departed, but winning is what this is ultimately all about and all these guys have been around highly competitive sports long enough to recognize that you want the best players on your team, and not necessarily your best friends.
The new faces of this franchise are also more popular already than the those we’ve traded away. People love Flynn—his media presence reminds me of Adrian Peterson, and he’s fared OK media and popularity-wise here. Love is becoming an ESPN darling and winning more and more local fans through his tweeting and exposure. Rubio will have a huge following once he gets here that’ll dwarf the following he already has. And I think two guys from Washington—Etan Thomas and Darius Songaila (assuming they stay)—will also develop a nice following here like the three players we just traded because they play hard and physical even though they’ll get beat more than they don’t.
I think the brutal truth is that the Twolves were a bad team talent-wise and management-wise for at least the last three seasons. Even if Al and Brewer were healthy last year, and McHale had coached them the entire year, would they have won 40 games? Do we really have confidence in that FO regime making the appropriate moves to get them into the playoffs consistently? I think the reasonable and realistic answer to both is no. It’s OK to blow up a bad team. It’s even better to do it while making positive draft decisions and positive cap decisions. Only time will tell, but when compared to the previous regime, the current strategy is clearly superior. If we need to argue with data and stats about the likelihood of last year’s team/regime to become a playoff team, well let’s do it. Perhaps in another post though. :)
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
They are in a better place...
That is what really gives me peace with this deal. This is a much better situation for the Rhino. He should get a lot more minutes and hopefully a nice contract will follow somewhere. Ditto Bassy. As always, Madsen should just continue to be thrilled that he collects a paycheck and gets the free gym membership.
The net incremental roster flexibility is pretty insignificant IMO, as is the fact that Q-Rich fills a positional need, but neither hurts.
I am going to choose to look at this as allowing two classy, and still young, vets a chance to succeed in a new environment.
"They are in a better place... "
Isn’t this what we say when people die?
Oh, that’s right…they went to the Clippers…same thing…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Nickels and dimes for a quarter
That’s what this trade is. Its nice feeling the three coins in your pocket, but they never bought you much on the court.
One more cheap analogy. This is the end of the brush clearing for David Kahn. He’s cleaned the books and the roster about as much as he can for now. Any announcements between now and training camp will be real building blocks. A head coach. Definititve news on Rubio. A 4th off-season move for Q-Rich 59 days from now(for something legit). Keep Flubio or move half for something major. Those are the kinds of things we can expect from here on out.
In the meantime, I hope its warm and sunny in Espana today.
I'm Glad Madsen is Gone
I’m sure he’s a nice guy, but that 5 year deal just absolutely pissed me off. He’s not an NBA player.
In order to rebuild this team, the old team had to be broken down. We’re there now. Q won’t be here next season, and it’s doubtful that he’ll be here this coming season. We are going to start anew. I like it.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
Well put..
…Madsen wasn’t an NBA player and he also engaged in an attempt to throw a professional game…which worked. He was reportedly one of the better guys in the league but it didn’t translate to on the court action.
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I Don't Blame Madsen for It
He was doing what he was told to do. I’m sure it was humiliating for him to go out there and hoist threes. I suppose he could have said, No, I’m not going to do it, but I’m not sure he’s wired that way. That thrown game is one of the blackest marks in club history and the blame for it goes higher up than the guy who pulled the trigger on those threes.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
Just so
Madsen wasn’t out there jacking up unprompted perimeter shots. Even if he had been the coaching staff and those above them pulling the strings would easily have bee able to take out the shepherd’s crook and remove him from the stage, Vaudeville Daffy Duck style.
This is about karma, not actual responsibility for that night.
I didn't blame him...
….at first, but I was at the game and we had made our way down to near court side enough where we could hear everything that was being said on the court and it turned into a joke with the players very early on. He was clearly told to go out and do something and he did it…with great enjoyment. He may as well have been throwing shots up over his shoulder. It was awful. You are right, however, that the blame for that game should go much higher. It was, is and always will be a disgrace.
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I think your proximity to that particular game colors your opinions too much on Madsen. Other NBA teams have ‘tanked’ at least as much as the Wolves/Grizzlies did on that day. What if Madsen had made those 3’s? Wasn’t he doing what management wanted him to do? Madsen is the epitome of the good soldier, and was being so on that day. Continually saying that he is not an NBA player doesn’t cut it. GMs have been willing to pay him to be one for a long time. The NBA is not just a talent league. Both Mark Madsen and Kwame Brown were first round draft picks. We know who has the better talent, but who worked harder to earn his paycheck and who contributed more to his team’s success?
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 21, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Good soldiers...
…say no to bad orders.
What other teams have tanked as much as that single game? The Celtics came close but even if you can come up with some sort of relativity-based morality concerning that game, there is still no way to say that it was a good thing. “Other people did it too” isn’t a good excuse…especially when the other people doing it didn’t do it nearly as bad.
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He was a loyal soldier then, not a good one
And I think that’s exactly how Miami got Beasley (they obviously wanted Rose but Chicago messed that up for them). Marion sat out more games than he had ever sat out in his career after he got traded there. Wade was healthy, but kept out of the games because they didn’t want to chance it and wanted to let him heal all the way. If doctors cleared him to play, he was good to go. Udonis Haslem was kept out of many of their games. They sat Jason Williams even. All I remember is that their starting lineup couldn’t have beat many DLeague teams for the last 15-20 games of that year. We threw one game pretty badly and blatantly yes, but Miami threw a lot more and didn’t get crap for any of it.
You're forgetting...
…that KG and Davis also sat out with “injuries” the moment it became clear they might lose the Clipper pick. Miami’s tanking was bad and so was the Wolves’. I’d also question where a player’s loyalties lie when tanking a game. I think everyone in that arena deserved their money back after that game.
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I really think Madsen is a genuinely nice guy, so I feel bad ragging on him on the way out.
But he was not an NBA player. He couldn’t defend, rebound, score, catch, pass, etc.
Effort and results are two different things. Fans liked him because next to an anti-fan favorite like Kandi, he looked like he was trying really hard (and he was). But he was less effective than Kandi, and that ain’t a good thing.
The Wolves have undergone turnover before
If memory serves, the team that took the boards in 03-04 didn’t bear a lot of resemblance to the one from two years before that either.
Teams’ rosters undergo something like “punctuated equilibrium.” For years, as wolves fans, we were reduced to rehashing potential Wally Szczerbiak trade scenarios. Could we package him for Gary Payton? It feels, during those times, like the roster was ossified around the KG contract. Then, at intervals, the entire thing churned and turned over.
Kahn’s level of activity is perhaps unprecedented, but we’ve seen this kind of thing before.
Good comparison...
I liked watching guys like Marc Jackson, Kendall Gill…etc., and that team had some success (first team in club history to have homecourt in the first round and might’ve won a round had Portland not thrown the last game to avoid them). There were some jerks on the next year’s team, too, but winning two rounds with “Feed my Family” on the team was more enjoyable than falling in the first round. Another part of that comparison was that after all of the chaos, the roster was balanced by the time the season started.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 21, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I would also like to add to this article
That Craig Smith also played along side Kevin Garnett. Not just Madsen.

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