Following up on the forgotten man
In our last post on Wayne Ellington we talked about his general game (excellent spot-up shooter, solid perimeter defense, can't create on his own, doesn't get to the line). In this one we will compare him to the other shooting guards and wings because the Wolves had a shot at every non-Evans/Harden wing/2 in the draft with the 6th pick. Did they get value with Ellington at 28? Was there a better option with the 6th pick? Can we have a big enough break from the Rubio circus? Let's dig into these questions below the fold.
First of all, let's talk about what we believe the Wolves should be looking for in a shooting guard. Here are some generic traits we look for with shooting guards:- Scoring- Not having a scoring shooting guard is like having a first baseman who can't hit for power. What we're looking for here is someone who has the potential to score above 15 ppg or, short of that, who can score as efficiently as possible.
- Size- We are firm believers in the belief that longer = better along the perimeter. If we had to pick the two positions where we would want to have superior size over the opponent, it would be at the 2 and 3.
- Ability to defend on an average level; ideally, across the 2 and 3- Pretty self-explanatory.
Here are some Wolves-specific traits:
- Catch-and-shoot: On a team with Ricky Rubio, Al Jefferson, Kevin Love and hopefully a solid wing to be named later, a Wolves two guard will likely need to be the type of player who can make the most of the opportunities created for him in the 1/2 court and transition.
- Ability to move without the ball in the 1/2 court- See above.
- Efficient with low turnover rate- Again, if you are going to have a player out there who will be the 3rd or 4th option at the 2 guard, you need to have him be opportunistic and efficient. You can't have someone who misses a lot of shots and turns it over at a high rate when they will be expected to produce in limited opportunities.
Let's take a look at a few important stats from Ellington's peers. We chose TS% because it encompasses free throw shooting, pts/40 pace adjusted because it is the best way to compare points at the college level, possessions per game to show workload, pts/poss to show how efficiently a player scores, turnovers per possessions to show how well a player takes care of the ball, ppr to show how well a player can facilitate, ft/fga to show how well a player gets to the line and 3pa/fga to show how dependent they are on the long ball.
| TS% | pts/40 (pace) | poss/game | pts/poss | to/poss | ppr | ft/fga | 3pa/fga | |
| Terrence Williams | .52 | 14.1 | 12.2 | 1.02 | 0.19 | 2.85 | 0.30 | 0.38 |
| Jermaine Taylor | .59 | 32.2 | 21.4 | 1.22 | 0.13 | -4.93 | 0.28 | 0.40 |
| Chase Budinger | .60 | 19.6 | 15.2 | 1.18 | 0.16 | -0.54 | 0.34 | 0.37 |
| Stephen Curry | .60 | 31.6 | 23.6 | 1.21 | 0.16 | -0.11 | 0.37 | 0.49 |
| Gerald Henderson | .54 | 21.3 | 14.8 | 1.11 | 0.15 | -1.82 | 0.40 | 0.26 |
| Wayne Ellington | .60 | 18.3 | 12.6 | 1.25 | 0.13 | 0.40 | 0.25 | 0.46 |
| Marcus Thornton | .58 | 25.9 | 17.1 | 1.24 | 0.11 | -1.30 | 0.37 | 0.37 |
| Demar DeRozan | .56 | 17.0 | 12.7 | 1.09 | 0.16 | -3.37 | 0.40 | 0.10 |
Ranking the stats that can be put on a scale of good-to-bad (TS%, pts/40, pts/poss., to/poss and ppr ranked 1-8), and then adding together the individual rankings, here is a composite score for each player.
- Ellington (12)
- Curry (14)
- Thornton (16)
- Taylor (18)
- Budinger (19)
- Henderson (26)
- DeRozan (31)
- Williams (33)
Of course, this is a massively incomplete way of looking at a player's value. What it is is a starting point for determining fit and value. Let's take a peak at the stats that couldn't be put on a scale of good-to-bad.
In terms of possessions/game, Curry and Taylor are ball-dominant players, requiring large amounts of possessions to do their deeds. These players are go-to guys on their teams. Thornton, Budinger, and Henderson are major contributors (Thornton borders on being a go-to guy). Williams, Ellington and DeRozan are significant contributors.
Henderson, Thornton, Curry and Budinger all did a fairly decent job getting to the line, although none of these players did so at a rate that would make them seem like a danger in the lane.
Curry and Ellington were the most three-point oriented scorers with DeRozan showing almost no ability to score from beyond the arc. Budinger and Thornton are the most balanced scorers between free throws and three pointers.
Before we start piecing all of this together, let's take a look the measurements from each player (in inches).
| Name/Height w/shoes | Standing Reach | Wingspan | No-Step Vert height |
Hoopus Size |
| Terrence Williams (78.3) |
104 | 81 | 134 | 99.325 |
| Jermaine Taylor (76.8) |
101 | 80.8 | 135 | 98.4 |
| Gerald Henderson (77) |
103 | 82.3 | 134 | 99.075 |
| Stephen Curry (75.8) |
97 | 75.5 | 127 | 93.825 |
| Chase Budinger (79) |
101 | 79 | 131 | 97.5 |
| Wayne Ellington (77.3) |
100 | 78.5 | 132 | 96.95 |
| Marcus Thornton (75.8) |
99 | 77 | 130 | 95.45 |
| Demar DeRozan (78.5) |
103 | 81 | 132 | 98.625 |
OK, this is kind of a generic attempt at true height/size, but what I did here for the Hoopus Size is take standing reach, wingspan, and no-step vert height, converted them to inches and...wait for it...divided by 4. I know this is kind of a lame stat and it could be fleshed out in much greater detail, but I wanted to put down a reach/jumping component to a player's size. Players with long arms and solid hops should have that taken into account with their size. Here's how things break down with Hoopus size:
- Williams: 99.325
- Henderson: 99.075
- DeRozan: 98.625
- Taylor: 98.4
- Budinger: 97.5
- Ellington: 96.95
- Thornton: 95.45
- Curry: 93.825
If you measured with height in shoes, this is how things break down and how they vary from the Hoopus size in terms of ranking:
- Budinger: 79 (-4)
- DeRozan: 78.5 (-1)
- Williams: 78.3 (+2)
- Ellington: 77.3 (-2)
- Henderson (+3)
- Taylor (+2)
- Thornton (even)
- Curry (even)
In other words, Henderson is the guy who does the most with his athleticism and arm length to compliment his height in shoes. Budinger is the guy who loses the most.
Overall, what we are looking for at this position is a size above 6'5" with decent length and a solid standing vert. One of the most problematic things Curry has going for him is that his size is completely sub-par at the 2 guard. It's not even close. Thornton makes up a little with his athleticism and length but no matter how we slice it, Curry is 2-3 inches below the next smallest member of this group. He is 6-7 inches below the largest players. This, along with his high usage rate and solid facilitation numbers in college, is probably the number one reason why Curry was pitched as a point guard. If you line this guy up at the two, you will need a large point to make it work.
There are no players here with length or athleticism that makes you stand up and say "wow". While displaying breathtaking in-game hops, DeRozan isn't exactly a workout marvel and he's not as long as we first suspected. If we had to place these players in physical tiers, Williams, DeRozan, Henderson and Taylor end up in Tier One; Budinger and Ellington are in Tier Two; and Curry and Thornton bring up the rear. Overall, if I were drafting on just height alone, I place the cut-off at Ellington, who has decent length and height. Curry and Thornton would require the correct backcourt pairing to work at the 2.
OK, let's start putting some of this together player by player. The first thing we need to make perfectly clear is that there are no players in this group that jump off the page as an off-guard. We are huge Curry fans but his appeal was as a ball-dominant point who could run the pick-and-roll with Kevin Love and Al Jefferson. He's a point every bit as much as Rubio or Flynn. As an off-guard, he's a mini-Rip Hamilton and, quite frankly, that presents about as many problems as Randy Foye once did. Curry is amazingly creative with the ball in his hands; he can create space with a fantastic cache of hesitation moves. Without the ball, I suspect he'll be a good catch-and-shoot player but I'm not sure there is enough there to separate him, on the whole, from, specifically, Wayne Ellington. Again, in an offense centered around, presumably, Rubio, Jefferson and Love, a 2 guard is going to have to have a lower usage rate while being asked to produce in set-up 1/2 court situations or in transition. Let's take a look at how Curry and Ellington fared in relevant situations in each of their college seasons:
Freshman:
| 2p% | 3p% | 3pa/fga | pts/poss | fta/fga | |
| Curry | .536 | .408 | 0.57 | 1.24 | 0.28 |
| Ellington | .488 | .371 | 0.47 | 1.17 | 0.16 |
Sophomore:
| 2p% | 3p% | 3pa/fga | pts/poss | fta/fga | |
| Curry | .540 | .439 | 0.56 | 1.32 | 0.23 |
| Ellington | .510 | .400 | 0.38 | 1.21 | 0.23 |
Junior:
| 2p% | 3p% | 3pa/fga | pts/poss | fta/fga | |
| Curry | .519 | .387 | 0.49 | 1.21 | 0.37 |
| Ellington | .539 | .417 | 0.46 | 1.25 | 0.25 |
A few things. First of all, Curry ostensibly played shooting guard during his first 2 years at Davidson. What is important to remember is that while he shared time with a point, he still had the ball in his hands a massive, massive amount of time, ranking 76th, 15th and 1st in terms of % of team possessions in his 3 years. Ellington never cracked the top 500. Second, Ellington's role at UNC will be more similar to what it will be with the Wolves than what Curry would have been with Davidson and Minny. Third, Ellington showed across-the-board improvement across the board within a fairly set role...a role he could very likely fill in his first year with the Wolves.
I am in no way, shape or form saying that Ellington is a better player than Curry. He's not. What I am saying is that Ellington at 28 probably makes more sense at the Wolves off guard spot than does Curry at 6. If you factor in likely role, size, role-related stats and defensive potential, Ellington at 28 makes a lot of sense vis-a-vis Curry at 6.
This post is running a tad long so we'll cut it off here. In the next post, we'll compare Ellington to his most direct (and closest) competition: DeRozan, Henderson and Williams. Could DeRozan, Henderson or Williams at 6 have provided more value to the Wolves than Ellington at 28?
Until later.
1 recs |
32 comments
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Comments
Did we *have* a good choice at 6?
Ellington represents pretty good value low in the first round, it seems like that’s a consensus position. The post is quite interesting in its fleshing out of that impression, but that’s not a controversial argument.
There’s no Thou Shalt Not Take Two Off Guards rule, though. Ellington’s being a decent value later on doesn’t mean his selection was ‘competing with’ the potential selection of Curry, or Gerald Henderson, or — ahem — Jonny Flynn as a shooting guard option at #6. Taking as a provisional assumption the central role of Rubio in the future, there was still no reason not to choose two shooting guards later in the first round.
Reading this has nudged me a bit closer to the (re-)realization that perhaps there was no particularly great choice at #6 for the team as currently configured, leading the Wolves to select their BPA in the absence of any trade down arrangement. They were a young team, they couldn’t afford to draft for need, et cetera. The problem with that take is that now we’ve tossed “fit” out the window. “As currently configured” means little to today’s Wolves. At that point you do beg the question of whether Flynn was a reasonable BPA pick over Curry…. Back to square one, do not collect trade exception or $3 million….
by feral on Jul 9, 2009 7:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not after taking Rubio...
…and just to be clear: I would have taken Curry and traded the 5th pick. I still think Curry was the 2nd best player in this draft as a point.
There really weren’t any super-solid picks at 6. I think DeRozan would have been a more solid pairing with Rubio (followed up with PG insurance with the 18th pick) but if you consider that they turned 18 into a pick in a deeper draft while getting PG insurance and arguably the 2nd best shooter in the draft at 28…well, this all depends on two things:
1- Does Rubio play for the Wolves and is he good?
2- Can the Charlotte pick be turned into something more useful in the 2010 draft?
If both of those things happen, then despite them not picking who I thought was the BPA at 5 (Curry), they pulled something special off.
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 9, 2009 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK...now
You are saying that Curry will be better than Rubio as well because common "knowledge" lists Blake first…I don’t mean to regurgitate anything from Sir Kahn but we are still talking about an 17 year old that was up against the Dream Team v.2 ( -10 on intangibles but + 8 on athletic advantage than the first) and held his own. I don’t mean to start a Rufio – Ruphio – Rubio chanting session but the kid can play and really means nothing but money and exposure to the Timberwolves world wide. I am not claiming that he is going to come set the world on fire but he is 3 years younger than Curry and has the experience edge. As long as he comes over within two years <yes, you read that 2> there is nothing to really worry about with the kid. I was as confused as anybody, every year the draft pick is called, when we picked up Flynn but I never doubted his talent or his ability to maximize the talent on his team. Rubio should be able to at least come in and provide excitement and really this has not been done in a while with the Wolves….but I am not worried about him being a bust totally. He will score because of his threat to pass and he will still be able to find some assists in the NBA. The game that he plays in that league and the game here is different but closer than a college powerhouse division. Rubio may struggle with the athletes at first but hell I remember that Houston didn’t show Yao Shaq’s size until after he signed…and everyone was ok with that but this KID plays in the Olympics against LeBron and company and he still wants to come play??? I’ll loan the man the 6 million…not like he won’t get a $80 million contract from Nike as soon as he signs.
Sorry for mentioning RR…
Ellington was a better Shady and that is a good thing. Ellington won’t dunk on you like McCantu but is a less streaky shooter that plays in a team concept. Summer League should be fun to see him and Flynn play a younger Billups/Hamilton backcourt.
by majinman on Jul 9, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PG insurance
What’s the difference between Flynn and Lawson as PG insurance? In a draft as deep as this one was in PGs, Lawson could be as good or better than any of them. Assuming we had gone a different direction at 6 and kept Lawson at 18, how is this situation any different than drafting Flynn? It doesn’t change the ‘how do you play two PGs together’ question. The only real difference I can think of is this:
-Who do you think will be better in the NBA: Flynn or Lawson?-the #6 pick in this draft or a middle first rounder from next year?
—Who do you think will be better
My take on this post and my own comments is this:
Ellington was an outstanding pick—the kind of pick that successful organizations make to keep affordable talent, role players, and spot starters on the bench. He’s arguably one of the top three shooters in this draft, has the physical ability, size, and college pedigree to play right away in the NBA, and we got him at 28. I can feel my nightmares memories of Ndudi Ebi fading away already. If the Wolves had drafted this way during the KG years, we probably would have visited the WC Finals more than once. Just sayin.
Lawson. I love the guy, but along with Curry he has the most questions about his size. I think his attitude, strength, and quickness will allow him to play in the league for a long time, but the question will always be—how close is he to being Khalid El-Amin 2.0? Sometimes you can have all the skills in the world, but it just won’t matter because you’re being guarded by guys who are fast enough and long enough to shut you down. That’s why there are fewer players 5’ 9" and under in the NBA than 7’ 0" and over, even though there are significantly more skilled players in the first group than the second (in general).
So, Lawson over Flynn? Or 2 PGs together (be it Rubio, Flynn, Curry, or Lawson)? I watched a bunch of highlights of Flynn and Rubio last night, and I came away with a couple of distinct impressions. First, Flynn is strong, fast, and can really elevate. He looks like a guy who could be a unique offensive presence in the league. He’s got great tools and the right attitude to play great defense, and I think he’s strong enough to keep guys from getting position in the post and fast enough to stay with them (or at least feed them into Big Al’s shot blocking swat). Rubio looks like he loves setting up others to score, and subsequently gets his own scoring chances off of that. Big Al and Love will love feasting on Rubio’s feeds—Big Al could average over 25-26 ppg playing with Rubio. Rubio definitely needs to get stronger and bigger, though. Just too much a gangly teen still. His defense is more pestering and annoying/frustrating the other team than it is lockdown.
After seeing their respective styles and abilities, I really do think Rubio and Flynn could play well together. Flynn would be more of a scorer and man defender, Rubio a creator and pesterer. I just wish these two guys would just play together for a bit, because I think there is a legitimate chance that they would not only enjoy it but find that playing off each other helps them play better. Maybe I’m being too much of a homer on this one, but I just don’t see that much of a difference in between Flynn’s ability to get to the rim and Tyreke Evan’s ability to get to the rim, or any other cutter for that matter. The biggest change required is a mental one—as long as you believe that these guys have to be PGs and a PG is defined as being x, y, and z, then these two guys might not coexist well. If you just let them be basketball players and let them have fun and develop a rapport with each other, then you might have a pretty good chance at a good to great backcourt that makes the rest of the team better and causes mismatches for everyone else.
And for the record, I’d rather take my shot with Flynn than Lawson because of Flynn’s defensive potential and higher offensive ceiling.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 9, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the strike through tag
Only “nightmares” is supposed to be crossed out above.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 9, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's exciting for them to draft Rubio..
….but he’s still an 18 year old EL point with average athleticism and a poor jumper who turns it over a lot. I think there is plenty to worry about with his translation to the NBA. His assist numbers and poise are off the charts but it’s not a simple transition and there really hasn’t been anyone like him before. That goes both ways in terms of good and bad.
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 9, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I think Ellington might be able to play in a fairly specific way
But I suspect that his defense and ball handling will keep him from deserving a lot of minutes, at least early in his career.
Of course, as it stands, he’s the only 2 guard on the roster. I get the feeling that, while they will add someone, it will probably be a VERY low impact guy, leaving a ton of minutes for Ellington. I think that’s probably a mistake, but we’ll almost certainly get to see a lot of him this year.
A few notes:
Well, Flynn better play point, I guess, based on your attributes. No length, not a catch-and-shoot guy, not a real move-without-the-ball guy, can’t defend across the 2 and 3 certainly, and probably can’t guard most 2s.
As for the Curry thing…I dunno; he still strikes me as a better choice at 6. I mean, here’s what the argument seems to come to: Curry is great, but only as a ball-dominant point. What doesn’t make sense to me is this: you are assuming that Curry would just be a catch and shoot guy with Rubio, whereas somehow Flynn will have a chance to create his own offense next to Rubio.
Is there a rule that Curry couldn’t run P&R with Rubio on the squad? I dunno. It seems to me that Flynn’s skills are only utilized in a ball dominant situation. At least Curry CAN catch and shoot. This idea that he played off the ball a ton at the ‘Cuse…well, he wasn’t central to every possession, it’s true. But his essential role, the role that brought him to prominence, was on the ball, at the top, breaking people down.
Back to Ellington: I hope they can work him in reasonably and not just throw him out there with little regard for his readyness. Kahn really can’t ignore this season just because he has an 18 month plan.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 9, 2009 8:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Curry/Flynn
Next season will be great to see how all this plays out, and to see which of these guys does well and which don’t pan out as expected.
After watching highlights of Flynn and Rubio yesterday, one concern I would have with pairing a guy like Curry with Rubio is that I’m not convinced of Rubio’s ability to break people down consistently at the NBA level. He seems like more of a bob and weave and pass guy than a ’I’m taking you to the rim just try and stop me’ guy. And Rubio also doesn’t really strike me as a scorer—he’s all about setting up and dishing to others and capitalizing on the leftovers. So I guess in that regard Curry could make a lot of sense. It seems like you’d be settling for a lot of perimeter play though—either Rubio tries to feed Al low or just kicks it out (a la Mike Miller) to a perimeter guy to shoot. Flynn at least gives them a guy who can get to the rim, and maybe more importantly, gives them the attitude and presence on the court of not just settling for outside shots.
To sum up, my take on Curry/Flynn is more philosophical: if you go Curry, I think you are accepting a more perimeter based game—one that might look a lot like what the Wolves did last year with Miller driving and dumping to Bassy/Foye, just with better players (Rubio and Curry in this case).
Or,
If you go with Flynn, you are basically saying that your offensive is going to be much more aggressive, as (in my opinion), the best way for Rubio and Flynn to maximize their respective abilities together is to play balls-to-the-wall hyper aggressive basketball—relentless driving and passing, constantly setting up everyone else to score or make plays as the other team tries to contain the two offensive dynamos.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 9, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope you are right
Besides the fact that I think the “fit” is absurd with Rubio and Flynn, my real objection is that I don’t think Flynn was BPA. Frankly, I don’t see what a lot of others are seeing. I hope he’s great and they can, as you say, adopt an aggressive style with 2 handlers/passers, etc.
The thing is, Curry at least has an absolute, identifiable, no doubt NBA skill. He’s going to be able to shoot. It isn’t clear to me that Flynn absolutely has a skill that is going to translate.
I’d rather try to keep this to Ellington, though. I agree that it was a good pick. Getting a core piece from a highly successful program that played in an almost pro style is great. I suspect he’ll have a career, which is more than you can say for a lot of late first rounders. I don’t view him as a starting caliber player, because I think the weaknesses are too central to the role of starting SG. He’s not the next coming of Rip Hamilton. He’s much more of a pure 3 point shooter, and I have trouble seeing him really develop a too the rim or even drive and pull up kind of pro game. Still, he could wind up being helpful.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 9, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellington
I agree. I think he’s a great role player and spot starter if necessary. What excites me about him playing for the TWolves is that (in my opinion anyways) the exact type of pick to make late in the first. Great value for the pick, very low downside, should be able to provide immediate production and minutes (even if they’re not stellar minutes), and little bust potential. Maybe he develops and becomes a great starter, but even if he doesn’t he’s the type of guy that provides great depth at a very reasonable cost for your team. I just love that we got him at 28.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 9, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From clips I have seen,
Rubio has shown what have to be at least flashes of driving through traffic and finishing. Style-wise reminded me a lot of Ginobli. Wonder if you saw this too? I think he will be pass-first no doubt, especially at first, but will develop this part of his game.
by Punisher#8 on Jul 9, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did see it
After watching Flynn do it, though, Rubio looked slower and weaker. Not that he can’t develop this with some more strength and physical maturity. I just think that NBA athletes will give him more of a problem initially than the Euro guys.
Biggest difference, either way, is that Flynn always seemed to look to score whereas Rubio’s driving always seemed to be about setting guys up. When Rubio did go to the rim it was either because of a big defensive breakdown or because the shot clock was almost up.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jul 9, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Curry/Flynn...
… I tend to agree with Eric that Curry would’ve been the better choice. For one thing, he’s an actual combo with a pure scorer’s mentality, whereas Flynn is a pure point who can also score (but who has a pg mentality). Second, he’s significantly bigger than Flynn, so he’d at least give us a few more inches at the two next to Rubio. Third, he could still run the pick-and-roll. Rubio wouldn’t have to have the ball on every position. Fourth, drafting him would not be as threatening to Rubio as drafting Flynn apparently was. Fifth, Curry is simply a better ballplayer than Flynn. Almost everyone on this board agreed about this before the draft. When I watched Flynn last season and when I watch his videos now, he doesn’t look as good as he’s being made out to be. He doesn’t always finish strong (in his videos he does a lot of underhanded and double-clutch shots), and the form on his jumper is awkward and his release isn’t very fast. I don’t see him being a competent two guard at 5’11’’. By contrast, I think Curry would’ve been an excellent two guard next to Rubio because both would thrive on each other’s creativity and play at approximately the same tempo (read: very fast).
by Shogun on Jul 9, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with Curry being bigger than Flynn, and it definitely isn’t significant
Curry
Weight: 181
Height w/ Shoes: 6’3.25"
Wingspan: 6’3.5"
Standing Reach: 8’1"
No Step Vert Max: 10’6.5"
Running Vert Max: 11’0.5"
Flynn
Weight: 196
Height w/ Shoes: 6’0.75"
Wingspan: 6’4"
Standing Reach: 7’11.5"
No Step Vert Max: 10’8.5"
Running Vert Max: 11’3.5"
Flynn may be shorter, but has a longer wingspan, is clearly more athletic due to jumping and faster agility drills, and weighs 15 more pounds than Curry. Even in standing reach, Curry is only 1.5" longer, not a significantly bigger.
With all this talk about Curry being the sure pick, I don’t understand why we don’t factor in athleticism. Wally could shoot and was drafted #5, but his lack of athleticism took away any advantages he had on offense with his stroke due to his matador defense. Clearly Curry offers more skill, but both were high usage volume scorers playing for small schools in small conferences. Unfortunately I think Wally may be the better defender.
And in regards to the interview with Basketball Prosepctus, their own Kevin Pelton published an article before the draft where Flynn was the #5 ranked PG behind Calathes, Evans, Lawson and Holliday and Curry was #6.
by Ebomb on Jul 9, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at them in games...
… I get that the measurements are a nice metric, but to my eyes Curry plays bigger and is a natural scorer. For me, those were two good reasons to draft him over Flynn.
by Shogun on Jul 9, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting, because to my eyes, Flynn plays more athletically and is a natural defender. For me those were two good reasons to draft him over Curry.
Anyway you slice it, Curry plays for the Warriors, Flynn plays for the Wolves, and Summer League starts shortly where hopefully we can get a better read on what we have versus what we could have had.
by Ebomb on Jul 9, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
… it’s too early to tell. I hope you’re right about Flynn; we need all the players we can get.
by Shogun on Jul 9, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
Just read a Blazersedge report on Summer League practice. They interviewed Jarryd Bayless and asked him whom he thought was the best PG in the 2009 draft. His response…“Jonny Flynn.” Period.
by Ebomb on Jul 9, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that...
..they also asked Monty Williams about his interview. He said he didn’t know because they don’t exactly hand out report cards for that sort of thing.
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 9, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bellineli an option
SNP what do you think of us getting another shooter such as Marco Bellineli from the warriors. He’s a reliable shooter, plays decent defence and we can use him for 10-12 minutes a game, plus he’s on a decent salary to where we have a team option for next year on him. GS has too many SG and we have plenty of big guys. I know Nellie ball requires big guys that shoot and dont rebound, but maybe we could provide them with someone in the same price range because Bellineli is not getting any playing time on GS this year.
by GHACAN BLACKSTAR on Jul 9, 2009 10:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a big fan...
….of Belinelli and he’s one of those young players that I would really like to see on the Wolves (the others being Thad Young, Rudy Gay, Marvin Williams and Ronnie Brewer). He’s only 22 and he has been underplayed in Nelly’s system. I think he would be a fantastic addition to the team.
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by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 9, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Belli for Oily
A match made in Nelly heaven.
by levi_mn on Jul 9, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wayne was a good pick...
but it will be up to him to develop, especially on defense.
And I think S&P’s analysis shows why what happened after pick 6 was “all good” for the Wolves.
by levi_mn on Jul 9, 2009 10:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Possessions vs. being ball dominant
This is a little off-topic, but related to the stats posted here…We always seem to assume that someone with a high poss/game is ball dominant and needs the ball in their hands to be effective. That may be true to an extent, but it is by no means a perfect measure. For example, “possession used” would not count a player that brings the ball up the court, dribbles it around the perimeter probing the defense, then ultimately passing the ball to another player who ends up taking a shot, getting fouled, or turning the ball over. A player can dominate the ball on a team possession without actually earning an individual possession used. By the same token, someone like Stephen Curry’s sophomore year can appear to be ball-dominant when in fact the literal time spent with the ball in his hands may have been less than Jason Richards, his excellent PG that year that was setting up all of those used possessions! My point is this: Let’s not automatically assume that possessions/game is a perfect proxy for ball dominance. One can dominate the ball without using a possession and one can use a possession without dominating the ball. Just a nit-pick on my part…..
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 9, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How do they measure possession usage?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 9, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FG Attempts, FT Attempts, Assists, Turnovers.
It’s all stuff you can find recorded in the play by play record. Rascal’s nit-picking is accurate.
Count field goal attempts, free throw attempts, assists, turnovers and (sometimes) offensive rebounds.
Discussion here:
http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=68
by levi_mn on Jul 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But not everyone counts assists in their possession stat
which makes it even more dodgy since obviously PG’s that get a ton of assists are being depicted as less ball dominant than they are in reality. When assists are in the equation, it makes it a better indicator of “ball dominance”, but it still isn’t perfect.
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
This makes the stat somewhat troublesome. I’m guessing a team like the Rockets has it broken down into individual time of possession so they know exactly which guys are and aren’t ball-stoppers. I guess I don’t see what the stat gives that isn’t already shown by TS%, eFG%, AST%, and TO%.
As for how this relates to Ellington: it still seems like the guy has improved every year while fitting into a team system and understanding pecking order. His performance in the Final Four also indicates that he’s a willing shooter without being a gunner. If he’s not asked to make a lot of plays off the dribble or cover high-scoring guards, he can be effective next year in 20 mins/game. And the thing that might separate him from the other options at 28 is his ability to grow his game and contribute without needing the ball a lot. When a guy is effective in catch-and-shoot opportunities, it makes the rest of the offense flow more smoothly.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 9, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think in Ellington's case
the possession stat actually does reflect reality. He is definitely an off-the-ball type of guy that can be efficient in catch and shoot situations coming off of picks or just parking himself in the corner to help space the floor. I agree that the great thing about Ellington’s numbers is he just got more and more efficient as the years went by at UNC. That is a great sign.
I think Curry is the case where possessions used gets to be misleading. Yeah, he uses a lot of possessions in his time at Davidson, but it wasn’t up until last season that he actually was dominating the ball, and that’s because he was moved to PG and had to do everything for Davidson. Tyreke Evans is a guy that needs the ball in his hands. I’d argue Flynn needs the ball in his hands too. Curry does not. The issue with Curry is playing with another big guard that can guard 2’s, yet can also help set-up Curry some on offense. That’s why Curry and Evans was such a tantalizing combination to ponder for our squad.
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 9, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strength of competition considered?
Have any of these statistics been adjusted to account for the relative differences in quality of opponent? I would imagine Curry’s numbers might be depressed somewhat had he been regularly facing ACC foes.
by Jackdaw on Jul 9, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Syracuse had a
very high SoS rating (#2)
Davidson was in the 200’s.
by Auswolf on Jul 9, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This at some level cuts both ways though
Sure, Curry didn’t have the level of competition, but he was also constantly double and triple teamed. Ellington got a lot of open shots as a result of having great teammates.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 9, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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