Baby, Were We Born to Run?
by LoveTo on Aug 10, 2009 5:21 PM CDT
Email
PrintJerry Zgoda of the Star Tribune passed along a letter that David Kahn wrote to the fans today. It's on the Strib website, and I think somebody else posted it on this site also. In the letter, Kahn reveals his three "threshold" criteria in looking for a coach, that any candidate had to agree to before being considered.
A) the Timberwolves will be a player-development program, which I assume means there will be no big moves for star veterans any time soon, but rather the drafting and teaching of young talent for the next few years. Fine by me.
B) The young talent will see significant playing time and be given some freedom to learn and make mistakes. Also fine by me, except Rambis may have tied his own noose two or three years down the road by agreeing to that.
C) The Timberwolves will be a running team. The new coach must install an up-tempo system. This is the one criteria I see a problem with. More below the fold.
The Wolves' two best players are fairly un-athletic, but highly skilled, power forwards. Kevin Love is a good outlet passer (although he didn't really show it in the NBA last year. Maybe that skill doesn't translate to the pro game?), but other than that one skill, neither player is really suited to play an up-tempo game. Al Jefferson is at his best when you feed him the ball, get out of his way, and let him work his low-post magic. Love is at his best when he's getting putbacks, freeing up space down low by stepping out for a mid-range jumper, and running the pick-and-roll. Unless Kahn is planning to deal Jefferson next offseason, which I think would be a mistake, I don't see the logic. Why insist on a "running identity" when the two cornerstones of your franchise can't really get up and down the floor?
It would be different if, after interviewing all these candidates and deciding Rambis was the best choice, the two of them sat down and determined that a running style would be the best option, and they have (or can assemble) a roster to play that style. But the fact that any candidate had to agree with an up-tempo offense to even be CONSIDERED is not a good thing. Kahn seems like a pretty smart guy, and a pretty good administrator. But he doesn't have a background, or a reputation, as a great basketball mind. I don't like that he alone decides the playing identity of this team, rather than someone who has been playing and coaching the game for years, like Rambis.
Up-tempo basketball is exciting to watch. It would make for a more fan-friendly game. And I'll admit, if given a choice -- in a vacuum -- of cheering for a fast-paced team or a half-court one, I'd choose the former. But more than I want to watch a high-flying team, I want to watch the talents of my team's best players maximized and exploited. Winning puts butts in the seats a lot faster than pace of play. Does anybody think that fans of the Lakers, Spurs, or Celtics think "Man, it's nice to have a good team, but I'd go to a lot more games if they just ran a damn fast break every now and then!" No, because when executed well, half-court basketball is plenty fun to watch. I just hope Kahn isn't insisting on molding a "running team" because he thinks the fans will appreciate it. Us fans, David, we appreciate playoff (and someday, hopefully, championship) caliber basketball. Playing to your strengths is the best way get there.
73 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think this is a legitimate point
In order to be a successful running team, you have to have someone to run it, AND you have to have wings that can run and score. The Showtime Lakers, a team Kahn referenced today, obviously had both of those things.
The truth is, the game has changed. The 7 seconds or less Suns teams were materially different than the Lakers’ teams that ran. For one thing, as the game has matured, there is more of a focus on transition defense. Teams get back better now. Thus, fast-paced teams (and half-court teams, for that matter), are more oriented toward the 3 point shot. That took a while. If you look at the numbers, you see in the early years of the 3, teams didn’t take many. It took years for teams to understand it as a weapon.
The 3 has been, in my view, something of a mixed blessing. It was adopted to bring excitement to the game, but as the league started to shoot them in volume, scoring went down. Teams stopped running, both because transition D got better, and because with the 3, there was less incentive to get the layup.
There is just no way to get enough fast break layups to make it central to your plan. Teams get back too well. You have to have guys who can finish at the rim, but also guys who can spot up for the 3. The problem for the Wolves is that they really don’t have either right now.
You’re right; their 2 best players aren’t running players. It might be that Kahn sees the future as Rubio/Flynn/stud wing, and Jefferson and Love as more secondary pieces.
by Eric in Madison on Aug 10, 2009 5:45 PM CDT reply actions
You could be right about Kahn's vision
But if he sees the future as Rubio/Flynn/stud wing, then I think he’d see Jefferson especially as more of a really nice trade chip than a secondary piece. That’s a pretty highly paid secondary piece.
Layups are still the best shot in basketball though
1. Dunks/Layups
2. Threes
3. Close shots. (Baby hooks, etc.)
4. Jumpers
Those are the shots you want your team to get in that order. Now Jumpers is a giant category that I could break up into 8-10 footers, 10-12, 12-15, 15-18, and long jumpers. All of which would be behind the other 2 categories.
A good jump shooter can hit about 50% of his jump shots. Some will go higher if they shoot them all close, but those guys (Gasol) tend to fall into the baby hook range. To shoot 50% from behind the arc, you only need to be hitting 34% of your 3s. That’s not too tough for a ton of guys in the NBA to do. It’s just a good, efficient shot.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Fouls
I agree with your list and on 3s being an efficient shot, but you have a much lower chance of being fouled than on Dunks/Layups and Close Shots – especially the baby hooks or slashing type runners/floaters – meaning that to actually match the scoring efficiency and foul trouble pressure one would have to shoot better than 34% from 3. Someone pointed this out to me once and I thought I’d pass it on.
You can't get out into transition if you can't rebound the ball.
Jefferson and Love aren’t going anywhere. Their rebounding prowess and outlet passing are supposed to jumpstart fastbreaks, I guess.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
Two best players ARE RUNNING PLAYERS
1. Yes, the game has changed, but as Kahn pointed out today low post scorers work in running systems. See Kareem and the Lakers in the 1980s.
2. Outlet passes are key to being a running team and not many people are really good at it. I insist they do work in the NBA, with no evidence. But, Wolves have a phenomenal outlet passer in Love. He was a rookie last year, he’ll learn how to use it more effectively. For dated evidence, watch Kareem’s outlet pass to Worthy, who then tosses it to Rambis who then gets clobbered by Kevin McHale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-RLXkp-ucE
3. If you want to get free agents in MN, running (and hopefully winning) is one way to do it. Players would rather run.
4. I’m not sure transition defenses are better now. Maybe, I’m not sure how I would know for sure. I have a difficult time believing that the bad boy pistons did not play excellent transition defense or that it wasn’t a focus of Boston’s to stop the LA fast break. I’m sure teams in the 80s schemed to stop the elite Lakers from running the ball down their throats. Of course, the Lakers had Magic Johnson (and Kurt Rambis).
Anyway, running may not work, you are correct there. But there’s no reason to think Big Al and Love can’t succeed in a running offense. Big Al trails on the break, you don’t get a good shot in transition, you got Big Al, throw him the ball. It’s a nice luxury to have to be able to run and have an excellent post scorer.
Agreed, but
I don’t think they will run all of the time. His comment about there being sometimes where a team just has to play half court offense is pretty telling. I guess if I was game planning, I would take what the Defense gave me and if I didn’t like that, then I would dump it into Al and try to get him some one on one time. As long as you have three players who can really run and finish…Al and Love work. They are not ideal to a pure running team, but they each have very valuable skill sets that they can bring to create a more complete offensive system.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed. I doubt we’ll be near the top in pace of play because we’ll be a mix of styles. I see them as more of an opportunistic team based on what Kahn has said. Run when the opportunity is there, slow it down and throw it to Al or run a Flynn/Love ball screen play when need be. It should be fun. Now they just need to add that big, athletic wing to the lineup and I think they’re on to something. Come on Evan Turner…
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
This could be a rational
For a Flynn/Rubio backcourt. The idea being that you want to pair Love’s Outlet passes and Rubio’s passing with a player as fast as Jonny Flynn in the open court. You’d also have another player capable of creating for others and attacking the basket off the dribble.
As far as Jefferson/Love you can use them in such a setting- I think it would be more intriguing if you could get a really athletic 5 man. This is why Derrick Favors excites me so much as a prospect for this team. You could then unload a healthy Jefferson for additional assests- (Wings/Draft Picks). The problem with this though is such a team might not come to fruition for another 3-4 years. So fans would need to be patient.
Isn’t Favors a Josh Smith type 3/4 hybrid?
Jennings: F*** the Knicks, them n***** is always going to be weak.
I was under the impression that he was a
4/5 hybrid. But an athletic one.
I've wondered this same thing myself
But last year, in January, we were more of an up-tempo team and it served us well. We weren’t playing the best talent, but we did well regardless. At least more so than you can say about the rest of the year against marginal talent.
BUT, I think compared to January last year, we have Flynn, Ellington, Brewer, and possibly Rubio who IMO would all be better up-tempo players than Bassy (yes he was quick, but couldnt shoot or finish), Foye, or Miller. Flynn WILL be a better finisher than Bassy, if he isn’t he will be out of the league before his contract expires. That being said, this is the NBA, even the “unathletic” guys are superb athletes. Plus, athleticism is such a broad category including: Speed, quickness, strength, IQ (which itself encompasses quite a bit), ups, awareness, body control, and ability to recognize and react to situations. This certainly isn’t a complete list, but it has quite a few of the main things. While Love and Jefferson might not be the fastest, most explosive guys, they have many of those other things. And plus, they are fast enough to trail like has been previously mentioned.
Up-tempo teams also don’t mean that you have to run the fast break, it just means that we will hopefully get down the court and start some plays before the clock hits 16 (like the last few years). Speaking of up-tempo though, I feel like it would be nice to have a player at the 3 that could do stuff like this:
If only that were possible…
Running for Now
Let’s wait and see where this team in in 3-4 years… I’m guessing they won’t be running as much as the D’Antoni Suns or even the Showtime Lakers. It makes a ton of sense to let this team run while they rebuild over the next couple of years though, at least to make sure the fans are entertained.
Sure, there are a few hundred of us diehards that want to see a meticulous game plan executed, even if it means a loss in a close game, but your typical fan wants to simply be entertained without getting into all of that half-court nuance. Creating a running team will also pad guys stats and make them appear to be even more tradeable which will help us build the kind of team we want down the road.
If that’s the vision behind the scenes and it works, then it will be a thing of beauty. Entertainment value now so they don’t board up Target Center to transition into substance down the road so we can make a legitimate run in the playoffs.
Kahn has made his priorities clear. Uptempo offense is where we’re going, and if you don’t fit you’re gone. I am guessing this is why the negotiations with Rambis took so long. Rambis asked the same questions you are asking. I think Al will be traded when the time comes.
by Dave T on Aug 10, 2009 7:58 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
One possible reason
is cash. People will usually come to watch a team that scores 120 even if they lose. A running team might be a strategy to put more people in the seats.
Yup...
…It’s a straight up marketing decision. People will watch developmental ball if the team is fun to watch (i.e. fast moving), but won’t if it is a plodding half-court team. All the pieces fit anyway. Al Jeff can handle it, and there still will be time to run half-court sets, too. No team runs constantly.
No team runs constantly...
I realize this. Even if we’re a running team, it will still be nice to have a low-post force to throw it in to if the fast break isn’t there. It all makes sense.
But again, my problem with this is about the maximization of the talent on the roster. The way we are set up, wouldn’t we be better off working it into the low post as a DEFAULT — because, with Al and Love, that gives us the best chance to score on a given possession — but pushing the ball on a fast break if there’s clearly an opportunity which makes a fast break our best chance to score (we get a long defensive rebound, or someone slips downcourt past the D)?
let's be honest
you can always try to run and then slide back into the half-court. But the reverse is not true. You can’t walk it up and then decide you don’t like how they are defending you…lets run! Once the D is fully back you have run out of up-tempo options.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions
uptempo systems have historically been used to cover for poor defenses and poor executing teams. our offense should be simple. have the guards push tempo and if they canot get anything in transistion post al or p-n-r love. offensive basketball is bloody simple if players hustile and are able to develop chemistry. eff is not about system but about execution. keep the offense imple and try to teach some defense. until kahn tells me his vision of an uptempo offense I believe hs is using a buzzword for fan appeal.
btw if he wanted al to go he would have been gone on draft day. there were at least 3 deals that had value.
by revprodeji on Aug 10, 2009 8:29 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
What was offerred for Big Al?
I’m not disagreeing, it’s just that I was out of the loop during the weeks of the draft and didn’t read of them. Just curious to know what was offerred…
I would guess
Rev. can’t really divulge sources too easily.
The one trade offer that made that rounds was Devin Harris and Number 11 for Al. So the Wolves would have then had Harris, 5,6,11. The problem with this offer was three-fold.
1. The talent in Kahn’s mind was at the 1 in this draft. Unless a Demar Derozan, Jordan Hill, James Johnson trifecta excites you quite a bit.
2. Devin Harris has peaked as a player. His Upside isn’t really all that high. He’s
3. Without Al and not getting a competent Front-Court player their would have been serious issues.
by Jose Cordoba on Aug 10, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
how do u know I have sources sir? seems like a comment one of my peeps at realgm would say.
by revprodeji on Aug 11, 2009 2:05 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
btw nj, okc, and mem were the legitimate trading possibilities with al. that discounts the less than plausable offers.
by revprodeji on Aug 11, 2009 2:09 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Gay?!?!
Could we have had Rudy Gay+ from MEM?
If so, I wish we’d have pulled the trigger. I honestly think Al’s production will be easier to replace than people think…to say nothing of the fact that his style of play is limiting to his teammates. And I know that, THEORETICALLY, a low post presence should produce open perimeter shits…but that really only works if the big man occasionally passes out of the double and triple team.
In fact I don’t agree with trading al. I think that yes on the fast break Al will not be your first option, but what about those nights or possessions where you can’t run. When they make the shot. Then you have to play a little more traditional. The showtime lakers could play a half court and Jefferson is very valuable in this part of the game. Also a nice trailer, especially with two passing guards. If the defence gets back well. We have three great passers to find Al coming up behind them. The defence has to react to the other players which may give al a nice shot.
Nothing will make a big run like an easy dunk
The hardest part about getting your big guys to run is finding the motivation to run. If a big thinks he is going to get an easy dunk, he will be much more motivated to get up the court. We’ve seen this with teams that have great passing point guards, the PF/C get up the court much faster on those teams because they know they are going to get easier buckets. I think (I really mean I HOPE) that the prospect of easy buckets will entice Al/Love to out hustle the other players down the court. Al/Love may not be the fastest pair in the league, but they don’t necessarily have to be faster, just more motivated.
Those Lakers Teams
were probably more balanced than what people remember. In terms of Pace factor, here is where they ranked out of the 23 teams in the league in those days during each of their respective title years (courtesy of basketball -reference.com):
1980 – 8th
1982 – 5th
1985 – 9th
1987 – 10th
1988 – 12th (just below the league average)
Although they ran more than most teams, it’s not like they anchored their whole philosophy on run and gun. As has been mentioned many times, they had the luxury of having Kareem as their centerpiece in half-court sets. As the years went by, Magic himself became a much more half-court oriented PG.
Hopefully Kahn is talking more about a bias to run and quicken the pace as opposed to forcing us into a 7-seconds-or-less type of system.
Bias
I think you hit it on the head—I don’t think Kahn is committing the team and the coach (now Rambis) to the Randy Ratio of basketball with a 7 seconds or less edict, but rather is saying he wants a quicker pace with more players moving and passing. I mean, let’s be real here—there were too many times last year where watching the Twolves on offense was watching 5 guys stand around passing the ball to each other until one could get it to Al. I interpret Kahn’s wanting to be a running team to also be about getting all five guys involved more—no more standing around relying on one or two guys and watching, but getting down the floor and making cuts and passes. Involved players are happier and more motivated players. And for what it’s worth, I think Love and Al will be fine in this offense—Love because he’s too smart a basketball player not to be able to figure out how to capitalize on it, and Al because he’s going to realize that not only is he the one guy out there being asked to dominate the low post, but that he’s better at it than just about anyone else he’ll be playing against. I don’t know, it just strikes me that all a low post guy like Al is going to care about is whether a teammate can get him the ball—and whether that’s in 7 seconds or 18 seconds doesn’t really matter.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Aug 10, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
any half season data?
This is a reply to Rascal Flatts but I didn’t want to separate your own commentary on his remarks.
Couldn’t find anything on pace at basketball-reference.com. How did you (Rascal Flatts) manage to get the stats?
I ask because it seems to me that McHale’s post-Big Al strategy was precisely an uptempo game. In March it meant a lot of turnovers with missed passes while the juggled lineups got used to each other’s open-court moves… not unlike a QB and a receiver but without set plays. Unfortunately for NBA teams with season-changing injuries, there’s no real practice time at that point in the season.
Also if you take a look at productivity and defence there was some serious, lack-of-conditioning, fourth-quarter sag , but by April it resulted in the T-Wolves staying very competitive with some tough teams, including the Lakers… and this despite Miller with his ankle troubles, Foye with his hip pointer injury, and K-Love with the flu.
Someone mentioned “five players standing around trying to get the ball in to Al”, but obviously that wasn’t the case after Feb 6th. Nevertheless, even at the best of times you won’t get more than 30% of your scoring chances off fast breaks… and there’s not much evidence to think that this year’s edition will be any quicker than last… but that’s still ok.
Flynn should help… but many of us will miss Hot Rod and Bassy.
sorry... I did find it
… but only the full season stat: Pace Factor: 91.6 (15th of 30)
For some reason basketball-reference.com didn’t come up originally and I ended up searching through an alternate www.basketballreference.com without success.
Still, it would be nice if someone could find a post-All Star-break stat for Pace… I know one of the data sites had some great second-half breakdowns but I don’t remember who.
Spurs
I recall the Spurs of the recent past taking advantage of a lot of fast break opportunities with Parker and Ginobili, while still having Duncan as their centerpiece. Being flexible and able to take advantage of situations will be a strength and a welcome change.
Good point...
Showtime and SSOL Suns definitely ran a lot, but they still had to execute in the half-court a lot more than people think. Our opponents will shoot 45-50%. Running on makes is possible, but happens successfully rarely. Even if we try and run on EVERY miss, we’ll have to pull back and run half-court at times. Maybe, what, 1/4 of those instances? Just guessing here.
By my quick and dirty estimation, that means we’’ll be running half-court offense at the very least 58-63% of the time. Factor in all the timeout, end of quarter, last 2 minute scenarios, etc… and that number only goes up. Plenty of opportunities and touches for the bigs.
IMO, Showtime won titles and SSOL Suns didn’t because Showtime could execute in the half-court and the Suns never could due to the lack of low post presence. The Suns poor quality of defense in the half-court was also a factor…both perimeter and protecting the hoop…but not as much. Lakers were adequate here. Again, just my opinion from watching both of those teams a lot.
I don’t mind Kahn saying he wants to run, because a big majority of our possessions will still end up in half-court sets anyway. We will ABSOLUTELY still need Big Al and LOVE even if this ends up being our identity.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Thanks for quantifying
I think this is how a lot of us see things going down, but it is nice to put some numbers to it. When a team says “RUN,” everyone always thinks all of the time. We just tend to take them literally until we process the reality of the situation. Every championship contender needs to be able to play a multitude of styles, so every player doesn’t have to be able to play each style to be important to the team as a whole.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
More concerned
about Al’s poor passing instincts and lack of defensive intensity or instincts than about foot speed.
I hope I am wrong, but I fear Al (or his contract) will not look so good in a year or two.
by WinTheLottery on Aug 11, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess that
some players react differently to being on poor vs average vs good teams. I am curious to see which kind of player Al is. I can understand not passing on a bad team…even Kobe did it and while he got some flak for it…I would have rather wathed his toss the rock around than anyother teammate of his at the time. Last years team lacked a true leader. Would Al be more willing to pass if he had a decent floor general who can command his respect. This is the primary reason why I think Khan views him as only a 2nd best player on a championship team. He just lacks leadership qualities. But there was no one with those qualities on last years team that was in a position to say anything (Love being a rookie and all).
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
good team or bad team shouldn't matter
From what I’ve seen, Al Jefferson has simply never learned how to play team basketball.
It shouldn't
but it always seems to matter. People tend to assume that professional athletes will be pro’s and you don’t need to get them up for the game or tell them what to do, but we all forget that he is 24 freaking year old. Al is not a self starting and aware leader. He never will be. I don’t believe that he is an inherently selfish player ala Zach Randolph. But until he thinks the team has a chance to win and his teammates don’t suck, then why not take the shot? No one plays team basketball on a losing team. Please tell me one poor team that plays the right way with proper ball movement and unselfish passing?
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 12, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions
it's a chicken vs egg debate
No, offhand I can’t name a “bad” team that relies on ball movement and unselfish passing. Not many good teams either. I’d say that a large part of that is the players. In the NBA, almost everyone was the best player on their teams and so was trained to be somewhat selfish. Players like Jefferson, coming to the league out of high school, especially so. A few of the best, like KG and LeBron, do understand the value of ball movement.
Lets put it this way
If Al has a coach like rambis who prefers proper ball movement when forced into a half-court offense and he doesn’t pass this season, I will happily call him a ball hog.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 12, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
It's About Rubio
Rubio is Kahn’s signature move.
If Kahn publicly states that they are going to be a running team, and that he has hired a coach willing to run, it’s only going to encourage Rubio to fork out the money for the buyout and come over ASAP.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Trading Al???
I have’d a few responses to this. It’s hard to say if I’d trade Al not knowing the offer. Although my main point was if you could get a player like Derrick Favors who is long, can run the floor, rebound, defend as well as being somewhat offensively capable- he could be a better long-term fit with the Timberwolves than Al. Kevin Love has value due to off-ball movement, outlet passing, and rebounding. I just don’t know if I see Al’s game meshing as well with a system that relies on point guards getting into the lane and off-ball movement. I would only trade Al for value as I would Kevin Love. I’m just thinking its possible- 2 years from now- we might not see Al as the greatest fit. At the same time- if you get assests to make it worth your while???/
Im not saying the OP is wrong but...
Theres a leap in logic to say Kahn doesnt know anything about basketball while the accuser of that is some guy in the internet whose credentials we know nothing about. I dont know you so maybe youre the basketball Buddha, but my point stands.
Im not saying you’re wrong, but just because you dont get it doesn’t mean Kahn is wrong.
I also think this is a very public move towards getting people ready for Rubio, who will benefit from a faster paced game. Flynn also. Although more likely the Wolves will be a halfcourt team with a bit of speed to them, something like a hybrid, I think.
I AM just some guy on the internet.
And you know nothing about my credentials, probably because I don’t have any. I’m definitely not the basketball Buddha. (Although could that end up being a really good nickname for Ricky Rubio?)
But it’s my observation that Kahn’s background (a former lawyer and owner of D-League teams) makes him more of an administrator and organizationally sound type of guy. I think it’s pretty generally accepted (although I could be totally wrong about this.. anyone have an opinion?) that Kahn, as opposed to guys like Dennis Lindsay and Sam Presti, has less pure basketball knowledge and more knowledge of how to professionally run an organization.
I didn’t say that Kahn knows nothing about basketball. I’m sure he knows much more than me. But you can’t tell me that we’re better off with him deciding the Wolves’ style of play than someone like Rambis, who has played and coached the game of basketball forever.
Sure
But Kahn is running the team and wants to see it play up-tempo. Rambis must not be against it since he agreed to that, and with players like Rubio, Flynn and Love’s outlet passes, the Wolves can do that.
Plus, like he said, the team will still adapt to Al’s needs, hell be fine. A good tyeam is a team that can wear many different skins, and Rambis is a lover of strong fundamentals, as long as the team plays good basketball and develops, it will all be alright :)
Sorry if I sounded too offensive, didn’t mean to. Good thoughts.
by Xavier Garcia on Aug 11, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right.
And I’m not necessarily convinced it won’t work. Just expressing my doubts to see what other people thought about them.
Didn’t sound offensive at all, no worries.
Good points
I don’t know whether Kahn knows a lot or a little about basketball, but I just realized that he can’t be completely nuts in wanting to be a running team if Kurt Rambis, Mark Jackson, and Elston Turner were willing to come here to be HC. Those three guys I know know a little about basketball, so that adds a little legitimacy to Kahn’s intentions in my mind.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
A few notes about Kahn
Count me in as a cautious sipper of the Kool-Aid DK is selling. So far, I have been impressed by his energy and willingness to shake things up – he has definately changed the atmosphere around the team and has boosted interest in the team among fans and the media. Still, I think any judgement should wait until at least this time next year…let the man get through training camp, the trade deadline and next year’s draft/free agency period.
LoveTo’s discussion of Kahn’s credentials got me thinking a little (yeah, I know – dangerous!). In looking at his background (lawyer, D-League owner, man with contacts/friends in high NBA places), could it be that PG hired him to not only rebuild the organization and it’s image, but perhaps to be his point man for the upcoming CBA negotiations? As a small(er) market team, it would make sense that PG would want a man like The Wrath representing his interests. Seems that could explain the story that Rob and The Mayor will continue as part of the FO.
Any thoughts?
I think that hiring a Stern associate
was a good PR move by taylor, because lets face it, after the whole Joe Smith think he kind or burned up some personal currency with the big man. Also, I think that the wolves will run just enough to justify their current selections without excessively hurting Love and Al’s stats. Every new GM and Coach needs to prove their decisions to a degree. They only need to prove that the teams’ potential isn’t squandered this next year and probably the year after.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I couldn't disagree more with this article,
Right now we will definetly get either Rubio or Flynn, both of whom are running points. We have Wayne Ellington who is the perfect fast break three point shooter, like RAy Allen. Kevin Love is like a filler, he can run down the court and fill the lane, plus he he is great outlet passer. Then we have Al Jefferson, he seems to me like the perfect trailer. When the fast break gets stopped, we throw the ball down to him and he can do his work.
Now all we need is a center, that can run the floor, play defense, score, and start, and an atheletic Small Forward, that can score, play defense, and start.
I arote an article on bleacher report on this subject, so if you ahve any questions just look at that.
you mean
that you would like D12. Wishing for the Center who can both play defense and score as a starter as well as run the floor is a pipe dream. I have seen way too many teams reach in the draft on these types of players. Why is it that almost all of the dominant centers in college are analyzed and thrown into the needs to be a PF in the pros…category? Then some guy who couldn’t hack the center position in college is drafted as the next superstar center? A Love/Big Al front court is better than average and will get the job done. So much of position classification is hype.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 11, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
potentially
I am going to make it a point to catch the big ten-acc challenge on TV this year to try to see Favors in action. I want to see how he does against a more physical conference (against the Big East would be even better). How tall is Favors anyway?
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 12, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions
6'9 with a long enough wing span and enough strength
Can play the 5 in the NBA. Unless you think Dwight Howard isn’t a good description.
by Jose Cordoba on Aug 12, 2009 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
NO
All i want is a center that can defend the rim, and occasionally score, but i would like for him to be somewhat of a filler. Someone who is usually the fourth guy down the floor, before the trailer, and he can get a few allyoops in the process. BTW, Big Al/ K-Love is not a competent frontcourt. Reason being, neither one of them can defend the paint against smaller players. Both of them are also natural Power Forwards. Kevin Love in my opinion would thrive in the role of a 6th man, like manu ginobli. The reason being is that he is smart enough to come in and know exactly what tro do, but he is not necisarily skilled enough to play do all of th ethings he does well for the entire game.
I even explained this in my article.
I have to admit that I am
not sold on him not being skilled enough. I think that after another year we will know. In my post The Big Al/Love Breakdown, I noted that for the most part they have complementary skillsets as far as Al being the better post presence © and PF defender (he is actually slightly above average defending the PF position), while loves at least as good defending the C and playing the PF on offense. His stats were skewed because 1. He was a rookie…learning curve and all of that, and 2. McHale did have a tendancy to pull him when he wasn’t playing very well. But towards the end of the year when everyone was getting hurt he had to play and his numbers reflect that.
When you say small players…do you mean the super athletic slight PF/C types? The fact of the matter is that there just aren’t that many of them and with proper 2/3, 3/4 and backup 5 depth you can avoid it when those occasions arise.
Don’t get me wrong, I think we need at least an improved 2/3 and 3/4 on our roster…Gomes just doesn’t do it for me even as a backup. And I would love to have another talented 4/5 player like Favors. Someone like him might allow the wolves to mix and match to exploit other teams weaknesses instead of trying to avoid people exploiting ours.
Another interesting point is that Love’s net positional PER at the C position was +3 (not bad for a rookie…or anyone for that matter). The celtics C production was -2.1, houston was only +4 and they had Yao. The Lakers had +6.6, but they have both Gasol and Bynum…just not fair. If we didn’t rely so much on Gomes and if Al didn’t go down our own PER numbers for both PF and C would be safely above average. That to me is the definition of competent frontcourt.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 12, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
But i am not going by stats, I am going by what I see on the court
And what i see is that neither of these guys are great defenders of the paint. Now if we put a shot blocker in there at the center position, that allows Al Jefferson to move down to the 4 where he can defend well and score against any body. This also allows him to play tight defense because he knows and the opposing player knows that if he gets by Big Al, there is a proven shot blocker dehind him. This will make the oppsition think twice about driving into the paint, and inturn we will be able to gaurd our players tight on the perimeter. I have seen this work many times, example Kevin Garnett and the Celtics, Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Also, i think Love is that 4/5 you were talking about. And if there is anyone in the NBA if his skill level thatwouldn’t mind going to the bench if he got good minutes it’s Kevin Love, he has even called himself a Role PLayer on more than one occasions. PLus look at it this way each position plays 48 minutes, that means two positions play 96 minutes. Right? Well if you give 30 minutes to Al Jefferson as a starter, and Cole Aldrich as a starter, kevin Love can still come off the bench for 30 minutes and that leaves 6 minutes for a guy like Ryan Hollins. The other thing i am envisioning is that for maybe 5 minutes a game we could go big and put Kevin Love at the 3 along with Big al and said center. Again, all i a saying is that, against other frontcourts in the NBA, ours falls short on the court. That is definetly th eplace where we get killed most of the time, and if we had a Center that can start and play defense, we could definetly bring Kevin Love off the bench, because he has the highest Basketball IQ of any player on our team, and he would know what to do in which kind of situation, but he doesn’t necisarily have the super skills to be a starting power forward.
I have to ask if the following description sounds
like the kind of guy we want to complement Al:
“Similarly to the way he played at the Adidas Nations Camp in Dallas last August, Aldrich again did very little to justify his status as a potential top-5 draft pick. It’s likely that he’s just not the type of player that stands out in these settings, as he seems to look very uncomfortable for the most part outside of Kansas’ system. Aldrich’s skill-level offensively looked very limited in the drills and five on five action, as he has average footwork and touch around the rim and appears pretty mechanical when trying to create his own shot. Defensively his terrific frame and freakish length allows him to be quite a factor when he puts his mind to it, but he often looked tentative and lethargic trying to make his presence felt.”
The fact is that Aldrich is not a good fit for the wolves. his offense clashes with Big Al…may work with Love though. Favors is Love with athleticism and enough leaping ability to at least challenge inside slashers and interior jumpshooters.
href=“http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Favors-1335/” >
I have to wonder how much they would have been killed with even an average perimeter D…unless you think Telfair, Foye and Miller made a decent defensive team. For the love of god QRich is a better SG defender. (can’t say the same regarding QRich at SF versus Miller). And wasn’t Love all over Josh Smith at the olympic trials? I have to think that Love can improve on his rookie year, considering the evidence. Provided that both Love and Jefferson get a lesson in help defending…they will block more shots. Give Love one more season…if he is just as bad as the first…sign me up for 6th man…but I simply don’t see it.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 12, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Al as PF
For the love of St Pete I am tired of this argument. List me 10 centers, no make it 5 that are better than Al. I also want to make the argument that Gasol is a PF and not a C as Bynum is considered the C on that team. Then you want ot move Al out to guard against KG, K-Mart, LMA, Gasol/Odom, etc. Isn’t Al “non- athletic, big and slow”?? Al is a center. Not a Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or D Howard, but he is better than 90% of the centers in the league today. So what if his numbers show his defense isn’t the best? Isn’t his offense one of the best? Can we have the mismatch that other teams need to figure out how to stop rather than worrying about how we are going to stop Shaq, Bynum and Howard?
Big Al is a Center, Love is a PF and we need a high flying jump shooting SF to complete the team. I wonder if Lebron is available??
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Aug 13, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
As I have said many times
I have even posted about this. Al’s offense is much better at the C than at the PF. His D however is much better at the PF vs. C. If he only played either the PF or C for us his PF numbers would be a +4.5 net PER and his C stats would be +7.1. I merely try to point out that he becomes even better when he can defend most PFs instead of the C’s. His defensive PER at C is 19.2 (the baseline is 15), which means his C D is about the same as Gasol. He can play both…but with both Love and Al on the floor, but PnR defense is horrible. They just need to find a way to take that away from opponents.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 13, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm convinced..
That Al and Love figuring out how to play post defense together is the sticking point in the Wolves becoming contenders. It has to happen.
Whatever Kahn's background, the principle is right.
Hoops 101: push the ball and make the defense stop you. I would love it if I never have to watch a PG slow-walk the ball up the court looking at the coach for a play.
Re: Al and Love, there are not a lot of 5 on 5, 5 on 4, etc. breaks. Al and/or Love will be underneath unless defending the high post, and will be initiating the break after a rebound or from out of bounds. As earlier posters have said – Love has great court vision and outlet skills, Al is exactly the guy you want when they do stop the break and you feed the post.
It won’t hurt the HC offense to have someone who can actually penetrate this year (Flynn). Lack of someone who could get to the rim was part of the reason it looked like guys were standing around waiting to feed Al.
More on the Showtime Lakers
God I love Basketball-Reference.com. What a wealth of info….Here is another misconception about those 80s teams: If they could run so successfully, they must have been an outstanding defensive rebounding team. Not true. They never ranked better than 9th in the league in DRB% during their 5 title years and were between 11th and 16th during four of their title seasons out of 23 teams. So they were a very average defensive rebounding team. How did they win? My god did they run an efficient offense AND they played solid – but not spectacular – defense. They were #1 or #2 in the NBA in Ortg in all five of their title years. They were 7th, 9th or 10th in Drtg in their title years. Again, that’s out of 23 teams. What the SSOL Phoenix teams failed to do was play above average defense. They matched the Showtime Lakers in leading the leage in Ortg, but were just average defensively. Those 80s Lakers and Celtics teams were just absurd in terms of how efficient they were on offense, despite one going about it at a quickened pace compared to the other. They put teams together where everyone needed to be guarded, unlike these days where teams usually sport one or two defensive specialists in a lineup that can be left to double or trap the opposing team’s lead dog.
Good stuff...
One thing I think running does is lead to more passing and less dribbling overall. It’s just much more productive to beat a team down the floor by advancing the ball with passes. I’d guess that the Lakers’ efficiency was based on the halfcourt and running aspects feeding off of each other through ball movement that looked for layups. The Wolves’ ability to control the defensive boards will boost their attempts to run, so maybe they won’t need to be as efficient but will just get a lot of opportunities.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Aug 11, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, the Lakers and Celtics
of the 80s were much more fun to watch in my opinion than the clear out a side and let LeBron, Jordan, or Kobe take their guy one on one. Granted, the Jordan and Kobe teams had the triangle which does allow for some ball movement and motion from the offense. But more often than not, these guys just end up in an iso situation with everyone else standing idly by watching them. The Magic and Bird teams didn’t have the type of singular tour de force slashers that could just slice up an offense single-handedly, so instead had to rely more on a team-oriented style of play. I think the early to mid 80s with Philly, Boston, and L.A. featured some of the best basketball by the best collective talent to have ever played. Fortunately this Wolves squad has some throwback types in Rubio, Love, and Jefferson that when combined with guys like Flynn and a yet-to-be found athletic wing could bring a nice balanced attack predicated on ball-movement and getting good shots for guys.
by Rascal Flatts on Aug 11, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
maynnnnn yall need ta git sum uv dat kill mayn
juss lay back an chill out mayn cuz we not tradin Dat Boi Al mayn iss juss not gon happen cuz de boi too thowed mayn is simple az dat. If we git RUdy Gay doe…witout givin up anywun, like git him in free agency. can u imagine mayn!?!
Rubio Flynn Gay Love Jefferson mayn hol up. Der wud be jokes bout de “Gay Love” front court mayn but i mean mayn hol up
MAYN HOL UP!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Create-a-Caption: ‘Vengeance is mine,’ quoth Alvis
- Roy Hibbert wants to play for Team USA, seeks release from Jamaican national team
- Bucks forward Jon Brockman loves wearing adult onesies
- Andrew Bynum after 9-0 Thunder run beats Lakers: ‘We’re better than Santa Claus’
- Walter McCarty, former Celtics forward and Pacers coach, takes to the music industry
