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David Kahn, the media, and cognitive dissonance...

 

As a person who earned a Bachelor’s of Science for studying Speech Communication, I’ve always  found myself more fascinated by the way things are reported than the actual events themselves.  SnP, who is clearly trained in the dark arts of PR, Branding, and Communication, gave us an excellent post about the power of narratives.  How they take hold, last, and continue to survive…even in the face of massive amounts of evidence to the contrary. 

The Cubs are still “lovable losers,” even though they’ve won the NL Central more than anyone else this decade with a huge budget.  Brett Favre is still an “old school warrior” despite his girlish, diva actions of the last several years.  And the Minnesota Timberwolves are a dysfunctional franchise that can’t do anything right.  Doesn’t matter if any of these things are actually still true…the story template is in the computer, and god forbid a “journalist” actually re-writes a franchise narrative, or does any new research.

 

More about the ridiculous "I've already determined David Kahn is a terrible GM in 3 months" myth after the jump...

Star-divide

  Anywhoo, I’m not covering any new ground that SnP didn’t already cross.  But when we leave the freeway of the “Timberwolves are terrible” narrative, and compare it to the off-ramp of actual reality, we arrive in my neighborhood.  The strange “Am I crazy, or is it you” block called cognitive dissonance.  My short explanation for this feeling is as follows (and in my own inelegant words):

 

Cognitive dissonance occurs when pieces of information you encounter don’t seem right or don’t make sense.  Usually, there are two pieces of contradictory information that seem unresolvable.  In most cases, to deal with said phenomenon, our brains choose to discard those elements causing the most dissonance, thus rendering our reality explainable once again.  This usually involves a lot of denial. 

 

So how is this relevant to a post on the Wolves?  Because the more I read as the summer goes on, the more I am astounded by the coverage of David Kahn’s tenure as our GM.  Before we’ve even fielded a team, I’ve read articles that refer to Pork Chop’s moves  as “disastrous,” “baffling,” and “douchebag.”  OK, I made that last one up, but just barely.

 

I think most of us on this board have been fairly unanimous in that Kahn has gotten off to a great start, but EVERY SINGLE TIME I read something national about Kahn, they are absolutely savaging him.  Are we being delusional fans that simply don’t get it, or are the “Great NBA Minds” of the national NBA media way ahead of us?  Here are some priceless examples of the supposed new T’Wolves GM  ineptitude:

 

Chad Ford from ESPN - The Wolves sent away two key players on their roster, Foye and Miller, in exchange for some undesirable contracts and a player -- Rubio -- who is threatening that he won't play for the Wolves. If Kahn sorts all of this out, either via trade or by persuading Rubio to come and try his mad experiment, the Wolves will move up in these rankings and I may even call Kahn a genius.  But for now, the team appears to be in disarray and considerably worse off than it was going into the draft. Not a great start for Kahn.

Drew D from “Sir Charles in Charge” rates Kahn as the 2nd worst GM in the NBA – “Only Michael Jackson’s summer has been worse.   The bottom line with Kahn is that he really needs Ricky Rubio to be wearing a Timberwolves jersey by October.  Has any GM ever had a more disastrous first eight weeks on the job?”

And my personal favorite headline from ballhype.com: “David Kahn, New GM of the Timberwolves: A Toxic Blend of Isiah Thomas and Chris Wallace

 

I know I don’t need to explain to each person on this board why I feel our off-season moves made sense.  My theory  of said "reporters", as SnP suggested, is that they simply don’t know what to write.  They’re too lazy, or too stupid, to examine the moves that have been made thus far.  But I’m sure if you asked them, we’re too dumb and unconnected to see the “Big Picture.”   No matter what happens in any given off-season, here are the results the media arrives at: Phil Jackson = Zen Master, Popovich = Genius, Shawn Kemp = Man with no condom, and Timberwolves = Incompetent. 

So if we subscribe to the theory of cognitive dissonance, we are dealing with contradicting ideas.  Either the media is right and David Kahn is the biggest idiot to ever hold the title of NBA GM (sorry Isiah), or he is taking the Minnesota Timberwolves in a bold, new direction (as several of us believe).  When faced with a contradiction, it’s necessary to check your premises because one of them is wrong.  Personally speaking, I wouldn’t believe a single word or opinion coming out of the mouth of a national NBA source that spends (MAYBE) one week a year with our squad .  The most intelligent, informed, and critical voices for our team are right here in this town and on this board, IMHO.  While I am a bit worried that Kahn is a bit too much of a stockbroker-type guy for my taste (every player/pick is an interchangeable commodity), I can’t find a fault with a move he’s made yet.

 

Considering most of the comments from contributors I respect here seem to agree with my opinion, I’m feeling pretty good about the future of our club.  None of us expect a title anytime soon, but I sure as hell feel we’re closer now than we ever were under McHale.   Cognitive dissonance temporarily solved…for me…for now!  Is Kahn doing it for you too, or do you long for something else?

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I agree that most people seem to be

Jumping the proverbial gun. Whether he has done a good job or not remains to be determined. But whatever happens, he has put forth far more effort than McHale ever did. Then again, would Minnesota fans know a good GM if he/she were slapping us in the face? Perhaps not. We are so used to idiocracy and mediocrity that maybe average is the new great for us.
Apart from the Richardson deal, I feel as if all of the moves have been for the better. Maybe the reasoning that Kahn used was far off base from what we justify it with, but so far so good. Like I said, I don’t understand getting rid of Telfair and Smith, 2 cheap players who fit in and actually liked the team. But he saved a couple dollars and thats what Papa Glen ordered. So whether I like it or not, he did his job. So far, so good Mr. Kahn….. now to learn a bit about keeping the fans posted on whats going on here!

by Mplax on Aug 9, 2009 2:49 AM CDT reply actions  

But even if he is merely average

then the National Media has vastley underrated him and his performance. there is a big big diefference between “2nd worst GM” and merely avg, and that difference should be big enough for the talking heads to know it. but rehashing the old stories by substituting Kahn for McHale is just too easy and too quick when there are not enough hours in the day to spend writing and analysing LA and NY

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Aug 11, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

We are so used to idiocracy and mediocrity that maybe average is the new great for us.

Great quote, and I think a perfect description for where we WERE at. Kahn has us with 4 potential franchise builders (Al, Love, Flynn, Rubio), 3 first round picks, and cap room.

If McHale was still here, we wouldn’t have The Rube’s rights, we wouldn’t have Charlotte’s 1st next year, we would have signed Foye and Miller to way overpriced extensions, and would have finished with 35 wins and no future instead of 25-30 wins and a championship future…

IMHO

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Aug 9, 2009 3:28 AM CDT reply actions  

But just think

If McHale was still GM, we would probably have Curry, BJ Mullens, Dajuan Blair, Nick Calathes, Foye, Miller, and Telfair! Come on now, thats at least 36 wins ;-)

by Mplax on Aug 9, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

In regards to sports journalists

I find one thing to be true.

Your average journalist/blogger covering a national sport know less about your team than your average reasonably informed fan.

Journalists use the throw away line because they have neither the time nor inclination to do more research. And they figure, correctly, that they wont be rewarded for that effort in any event.

Bloggers cover up their lack of knowledge with clever chat and pop culture references.

In any sport I follow, I get the best, most accurate information and the most incisive analysis from people who live that team, be it the Wolves here or my Australian football team. If I want a general overview, I’ll read a news site. If I want the detail, I turn to the fans. They know.

Only cowards pray for rain.

by Auswolf on Aug 9, 2009 4:57 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Team bloggers often give the best stuff though

Some of these SBN sites are more informative than anything else I can find out there.

Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.

by Zaig on Aug 10, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

A wonderful article, and some nice observations. Although I am not officially a lawyer, only a lawyer in training, Kahn is. He moves and acts like a lawyer. He spills information like a lawyer. I can see these things better then I could’ve before I started law school. The dissonance started with Kahn drafting two point guards, and not trading one away. Kahn refuses to move potential superstars for average pieces. A move that baffles the “intellegent” of the community. So the disregard it and assume they know the answer, but in all thier brilliance it never dawned on them. Kahn means exactly what he said.

by remiel6 on Aug 9, 2009 6:17 AM CDT reply actions  

I think Kahn is publicly the most honest GM when talking about his players and goals

Clearly stating weaknesses of Love and Jefferson. Which deals in the past he didn’t like. What he expects from bringing in Hollins. That he doesn’t know yet what to do with Richardson. What cap space plans he has. And so on.

That is both a good and a bad thing. You wouldn’t hear something like that from most GMs in the league, who seem much more trained in the art of saying little with a lot of words.

"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw

by Norsktroll on Aug 9, 2009 6:19 AM CDT reply actions  

McHale used to be that way as well...

.. when he took over and the players were not his guys. Once his guys were there McHale was far less critical. Let’s see if Kahn is willing to criticize “His” guys in four years???

It’s a problem many GM’s have, they can honestly evaluate someone else’s players, but not the players they bring in because it becomes a reflection on the job they are doing. Knowing when to cut losses and accept a mistake is a sign of a great GM.

by Rumblebee on Aug 9, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cognitive dissonance - not yet ! However, a "rec" for an excellent piece

I have been posting here because I like Kahn and believe he is at the starting line to turning around a franchise that was one of the jokes of the league. As I have stated before, he is bold, honest and has a vision.

Using your definition of cognitive dissonance, “Cognitive dissonance occurs when pieces of information you encounter don’t seem right or don’t make sense. Usually, there are two pieces of contradictory information that seem unresolvable.” I do not think this has occurred yet for the TWoles . You need results for cognitive dissonance to occur. When you are bold, like taking Rubio, you are taking a risk and may be wrong. If the Rubio move does not live up to expectations there will be a temporary perception that nothing has changed for the TWolves. For the TWolves there will be cognitive dissonance when they are better. The risky Rubio move feeds the perception of a dysfunctional franchise. My own view is that the risk of taking Rubio was not worth the possible reward in this move. Does Rubio really have that more potential than Stephen Curry? Maybe. But two years is an eternity in basketball.

If cognitive dissonance is to occur regarding the TWolves you are going to have to wait at least two years. Even if Rubio turns out not to be the star Kahn hoped I believe you are still going in the right direction. You need results for cognitive dissonance to occur.

by chgobr on Aug 9, 2009 7:15 AM CDT reply actions  

I never thought you guys were a joke

Not with Memphis and LAC around.

Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.

by Zaig on Aug 10, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

You almost asked the right question

My thing is this: when the supposedly disinterested media has come to a different conclusion than the admittedly biased (though intelligent) fan site (Canis), it’s worth asking if maybe we are just seeing things with rose-colored glasses.

Whether they are right or wrong, I have trouble criticizing the (sparse) national media coverage of the Wolves. They have been bad and uninteresting for a while now. A new guy comes in, trades 2 of their 5 best players and replaced them with…what? Jonny Flynn? It’s clear they are going to be bad again this year; even we think so. So why, exactly, should they get positive coverage?

Kahn….I’m not sold. There’s been a lot of activity, but how much progress has there actually been? The trade for what became Rubio was the big one. But if Rubio doesn’t show up for 2 years, as became possible immediately after the draft, it’s a setback. He doesn’t really have more expiring contract dollars than he did when he started the job, he’s just shuffled some contracts around. He hasn’t acquired any better players than he had before, except (we hope) Flynn.

Clearly, the story of Kahn has not been written; it will be determined by how he uses the assets he has over the next year or so. But from a national media standpoint, I can’t say they’ve gotten it wrong. They traded 2 decent players for a guy who may not play here any time soon, they took forever to hire a coach (still not done), they didn’t measurably improve on a team that won 22 and 24 games the last 2 years.

Everything I said in the previous paragraph is true. Is it the whole story? We hope not. We hope Kahn is as smart as he sounds. But in terms of what he’s actually done….it hasn’t gotten a lot better around here, even if it has been much more active.

by Eric in Madison on Aug 9, 2009 8:46 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree with everything you just said...

Judgment should absolutely be reserved, and the rush to “grade” Kahn is what has me so perplexed. I guess it’s just the price of doing business these days when you’re a media type…

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Aug 9, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, they have to say something

don’t they? And all that can be said right now is really what I posted above. There have been articles about the fact that the Wolves are conserving cap space. (See Chad Ford a couple of days ago). That’s what we are mostly focused on as the “positive” side of the job Kahn is doing, right? He’s got a plan, he’s conserving cap space, he’s valuing future assets. That’s all good, but the other stuff is there too. The fact that this team is pretty awful right now. The fact that Rubio is not here yet, and might not be for 2 years after Kahn traded 2 significant assets for him. The fact that he acquired Q!

I endorse Django Z’s post below.

by Eric in Madison on Aug 9, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just wish someone...

Would have the balls to say “You know, Kahn might just be going this right” and write an article about it. The bottom line is that if Jerry West had drafted Flynn and Rubio for the T’Wolves, he’d be a genius. But for David Kahn, it’s a “disaster.”

It would be nice if a single, prominent, national writer demonstrated some critical thinking capacity and approached it this way…no matter what outcome they come to.

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Aug 9, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

We don't expect that much

What I would like as a discerning fan is for writers to honestly ask questions about a situation, and go investigate based on those questions, and then write something that reflects that process. Instead what we get is attitudinal canned opinions and cherry-picked arguments to back them up. Everybody’s a columnist, nobody’s a reporter.

How hard is it to compose a story that says this?

“David Kahn has been extremely active since taking over under less-than-ideal circumstances. His moves, among them (a list of the biggest examples), have sparked a lively debate in league circles over whether he knows what he’s up to. Is he a genius, or is he just stirring up the mud in the Twin Cities?”

You now have a way of leading into your bio of Kahn, or your comparison of the Wolves with other rebuilds, or whatever. All without staking out a lame bold stance that’ll be as fascinating in two weeks as my March 2009 predictions of how the Cleveland Indians will finish this year. When we want posed attitude we can listen to Jim Rome read trash-talkin’ e-mails on the radio…. Which I never do.

by feral on Aug 9, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree

I think Kahn trading Miller and Foye for an asset (Rubio) and not taking back problematic contracts is a measurable and good trade. Chad Ford, for example, should be able to think 10 minutes about that trade and understand its advantages and disadvantages. he should recognize that the Wolves traded away two players that are CLEARLY OBVIOUSLY not involved in any sort of championship run BEFORE being forced to either grant them extensions or let them walk for nothing. This seems like exactly the type of smart trade that they want most GMs to make.

I agree it’s too early to entirely judge Kahn, but the reporting on the Rubio trade in particular is lazy, lazy, lazy. In no world is that a stupid trade. Even if Rubio fails to ever arrive or even if he arrives and sucks big time, it’s still not a stupid trade. The only way to actually evaluate the person making the trade is to evaluate the trade ex ante. Ex ante, all trades involve risks (injury, potential, etc.). This trade (and/or draft pick) was no different. Now, this doesn’t mean that the Washington trade was the best trade ever or even a great trade, but it certainly wasn’t stupid or inherently questionable and wrong headed. Declaring Kahn a terrible GM based on that trade is silly and lazy.

by littleboxes on Aug 9, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

wow!

You’re really wrestling with this in your mind, aren’t you.

…But never mind, you’re now down on record. Let’s see if “cognitive dissonance” kicks in for you before the year ends, either with a sad sack performance by the T-Wolves or by the solid players that we’ve traded away making worthwhile – or better – contributions on their new teams.

by artreddin on Aug 10, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes they have to say something

but instead of saying their position and listing the caveat (even if they feel it is unlikely), they tend to make it sound like fact. I understand that this sells, but I have to admit it makes them look a little too cocky and know it all. The most underused phrase in journalism is “I think.”

by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 10, 2009 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

The other pieces here are

1. Patience/Attention Span
- Simply put, we collectively (as a country, world, sports team’s followers) have none. Months to resolve a buyout situation or a coaching vacancy? We can’t handle it. Same with analysis. We can’t wait for the results, so an immediate verdict is necessary (whether it can be adequately supported or not). Which leads to…

2. Ego/Insecurity
- Once invested in an opinion or version of reality, reexamining said opinion can involve blows to the ego. Particularly if one consciously or subconsciously knows the original opinion was not informed.

I do understand that the nature of sportswriters’ jobs requires them to jump the gun on some analysis, but this should be able to occur in a more honest/thorough way.

by Punisher#8 on Aug 9, 2009 8:59 AM CDT reply actions  

Dead on

It’s why Canis Hoopus is on my short list of daily bookmarks and most national NBA coverage is not.

I used to work in newspapers and magazines and the old line is “Everything in the paper is 100% accurate, except the things that you were personally involved in.” I ended up being in some news stories and damn but if that wasn’t true. Suddenly I noticed the important details that were left out, the way a headline tilted perception strongly in one direction, etc.

It isn’t usually out of malice, just ignorance and short deadlines.

Narrative is one way to think of how teams or people get thought of, I like to think of it in terms of categories. We put people and groups of people in categories. Our brains would really struggle to carry detail about every person we now know of in this age. (we haven’t evolved to know thousands of people much less the hundreds of thousands of individuals we now read about each year).

It’s how you get things like Racism, and why we say things like “I like indie rock” or “Thai Food”. And I think it applies equally well to sports teams.

Clippers, T-Wolves, Grizzlies, Knicks – they’re all in the messed up franchise bucket. Each has slightly different modifiers (cheap owner, stupid former GM, total cluster f%^&, Isiah clean-up), but they get grouped in the messed up franchise category.

It takes time to get out of that category. But there is nothing a writer likes more than the “Wait a minute! The team that you thought was in category A, they’re now in category B – let me tell you about it…”

This would be what is called a “trailing indicator” :) It’ll take a good run of games, maybe a play-off appearance or a special player who excites the fans – but then these articles will start coming. When the first one comes to light we’ll see a whole wave follow very quickly after that.

So yeah, there is a real dissonance between what we see and what is being reported nationally, but if we’re right and alot of these moves make sense then this year or for sure the next we’ll see the tidal wave move in the other direction. And of course we could all say “See! See! We knew it! They were so dumb, they didn’t notice till now, but we called it back in the summer of 09’! Why is the national media so stupid?!?”

I hope we don’t write that, I hope we all just nod and smile at each other and understand that this is how national coverage works in a media system and that it didn’t mean much when they said what they said originally and it doesn’t mean much now.

It’s 2009 and the best source of analysis and coverage of the Timberwolves is Canis Hoopus and wherever Britt Robson is writing.

Let’s not live in the 20th century and think that national sports coverage is going to be nuanced or meaningful.

by Django Z on Aug 9, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions  

This is an excellent post...

And I would totally agree if Kevin McHale was still running the team. However, when a team goes through Extreme Makeover: Front Office Edition like the Wolves have, that should at least be a trigger to re-evaluating your thought process on said team.

These guys cover the NBA for a living, I don’t think it’s asking too much for them to do this, even in today’s world. Unfortunately, they are just busting out the old McHale template and doing a MS Word Find and Replace with the name David Kahn.

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Aug 9, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

I think the Rubio + Flynn thing was just a little too complex for many reporters to understand. It required more time to think than they are able to give our franchise (which is reasonable). It was much easier to see it as a continuation of the string of failures of a team in Category: Messed Up.

Many of Khan’s moves have been made with a payoff in a longer time horizon than the typical fan or reporter is thinking in.

- Trading pick #18 for next year’s draft pick

- Rubio (who may be very valuable but not for several years)

- The Q Rich trade

All longer team deals that can look poor in the short-term.

It’s one of the reasons I’m very excited to have Kahn as GM. He made a plan when he took the job based on a dramatic change over an 18 month time period and he has stuck to the principals, while adjusting to the random events like trade opportunities and draft outcomes that came along.

I don’t think the T-Wolves have ever had a GM who can execute this way and delay short-term gratification for long-term gain.

I think Kahn is the first mature GM we have ever had.

by Django Z on Aug 9, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depends on who has "cognitive dissonance"

As a graduate with an advanced degree in psychology, I find it fascinating when people bring out the ole bloody rag called cognitive dissonance in order to prove that their cognitive dissonance is supposedly better than someone else’s.

But no better example of cognitive dissonance exists than the fixed judgment of Kevin McHale, a member of the Hall of Fame, a named member of the NBA 50 Legends, and the owner of several NBA championship rings.

Make no mistake, McHale made several dreadful decisions as the Timberwolves general manager. But those decisions were not made in isolation nor were they made entirely by Kevin McHale. Just as in the decision to hire Kurt Rambis, Taylor is more than a bystander franchise owner. Yet there is little scorn expressed about Glen Taylor in comparison with Kevin McHale the former general manager.

So, McHale is demoted. Owners don’t get demoted. McHale becomes coach as Taylor announces all decisions will be made by committee. McHale does an above average job as coach and is very well liked by the players. Doesn’t matter. The hate filled fans have cognitive dissonance. Anything McHale does as coach that is positive is discounted; anything McHale does as coach that isn’t positive is fodder for the cognitive dissonance mill.

by Flagrant-II on Aug 9, 2009 12:23 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure a lot of people here

were willing to give McHale a shot at coach again next year. He hurt our team for far too long as the GM, its a fact. He got us KG and almost surrounded him with enough talent to make a run. Besides KG though, he could do little else for us. As a coach, his slate was clean in my eyes. Sure there are people I would rather see given the chance, but I was willing to defend McHale the coach… to an extent.

As far as Papa Glen, I will not say a harsh word against him because the Timberwolves are still in MN. And as long as Glen is in charge, I have reason to believe they will be. For this, I appreciate him.

by Mplax on Aug 9, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Glen gets plenty of criticism here

I’d bet a majority of Canis readers would blame Glen first for the situation Kahn was in upon his hiring, and therefore for the belated coaching search and the uncertain front office situation.

Even Taylor’s presence supposedly confirming the Rambis contract last night made me cringe. What the heck is Uncle Glen doing confirming something with the Presspatch when Kahn’s denying it with the Strib? Somebody woke Glen up past his bedtime again.

by feral on Aug 9, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't have had a problem...

With bringing him back as coach, even though I question his long-term commitment to the job since he’s said numerous times he hates the travel. But I understand why a guy wouldn’t want the former boss as the current head coach, and I think the “players like him” aspect is overrated because he’s not the only coach who’s likable and because good teams can have coach/player tension, as long as it doesn’t negatively affect performance. Time will tell whether Rambis has the same way with players that McHale does, but Kahn did say that he was searching for a coach who could reach the players like McHale did. It’s another “time will tell” thing, but I think fans should be able to expect a “McHale-plus”: a guy who reaches the players but also is better strategically than McHale (a weakness that current and former Wolves acknowledge).

by pagingstanleyroberts on Aug 10, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't forget the hidden agendas

Some (not all) of these negative stories are written by former McHale bobo’s. Somewhere along the line McHale took five minutes while he was with the Celtics to give someone an interview and now they are paying him back with negative stories and articles about how valuable Foye and Miller suddenly became…think Sid for one example.

by Rumblebee on Aug 9, 2009 3:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Right! McHale always had a good rapport with the press...

…one of his best traits.

It would be a very generous gesture on McHale’s part to get out in front of this, and wish Rambis great success as a coach. It would also be good if they are seen together publicly, and maybe even tell some stories about the clothesline incident.

It is fate that we end up with a coach that is similar to McHale in many ways, and that their playing career was so intertwined. It would be good karma for McHale to acknowledge that, and maybe say something about there not being a better candidate to carry on what McHale was trying to do.

I would like to see that. Maybe Taylor will give him a better severance package of he acts like a team player and endorses Taylor’s moves. Might help season tickets and attendance too.

by timmuggs on Aug 9, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Community Intelligence

While the double point guard thing could still completely blow up in our faces, I would relate a story I heard about a study done in Britain many many years ago.

A statistician went to a county fair and set up a table with some notepads, pencils, and a giant fishbowl on it. Behind was a dairy cow, and in front of him was a sign that said whoever could most closely guess the weight of the cow would win 50 pounds. So hundreds or thousands of people at the fair put in their guesses. At the end of the day the results were tallied up, and one guy came within 3 pounds of the correct weight and won the money.

Now, what is so important about this study isn’t that one guy was able to get within 3 pounds of the actual weight of the cow by just looking at it, but that when all the results of people’s guesses were averaged together, the collective estimate was within a half pound of the actual weight. Amazing, right?

The moral of the story, as it applies here, is that as a self selecting community of fans interested in the Timberwolves, our collective assessment of the team, of Kahn’s moves, and the general direction of the franchise is more likely to be more accurate than any one of our individual takes on the team. So yes, 2 point guards is actually going to be difficult and one of the them might need to play some minutes as a shooting guard (I think that’s a safe synopsis of the group vibe, right?). But, Kahn also did select two players with his first two picks who have the chance to be good to very good or great players in this league for a long time—players who should maintain their value (again, my synopsis of the group take on it). Any national media is at an inherent disadvantage because they can’t spend the time to find in depth articles from the Syracuse newspaper about Flynn, or crunch numbers from 82games, or compare Big Al’s production against other similar sized centers in the league, etc etc. Instead, they read and link to Souhan. Awesome. Way to reach for the cream of the TC columnist crop. But, even if we include their assessment into the hopper of actively engaged fans’ take on the team, the collective assessment will still be more accurate or to the point than any individual columnist or blogger or Hoopus reader.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Aug 9, 2009 7:29 PM CDT reply actions  

The problem with your analogy

is that in the case of the cow, the participants were disinterested. All they cared about was guessing the weight of the cow. In this case, the problem is we ARE a self-selecting group—we have a bias in that we WANT Kahn’s moves to work. We WANT him to be right, so that’s inevitably going to color our judgment. We’re much more likely to emphasize the positive and de-emphasize the negative in our own minds and therefore out loud.

by Eric in Madison on Aug 9, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

A valid point

I think your criticism is valid, but only up to a point (to use the expression). While we are more likely disposed to view Kahn/TWolves through rosy colored glasses, I do think there is still a noteworthy group of commenters on here (like yourself, on occassion), who take a more critical or ’I’ll believe it when I see it’ approach to the team, and that acts as a vital and necessary balance.

And even given your criticism, which I accept, I still stand behind my contention that if you read everything everyone says and somehow average it out in your mind, whatever position or take on the team you’re left with will be a better (or more accurate) take than what you’ll get from a single given writer.

Although, something perhaps more to the point just occurred to me, and that is the nature of debate. Everyone who comes to Hoopus—and especially those who post or comment—does so because we are interested in getting feedback on our ideas and perceptions. I know for me this greatly influences how I think about the team, because sometimes you just throw wild stuff out there to see if it has any legs, and sometimes people respond with a resounding ‘no.’ And if I still disagree, then (for me at least) it spurs me into looking more deeply as to why I think my position has legs, and this often gets me into stats and scouting reports, etc. etc. My point is, national writers especially, absent this type of feedback mechanism or community that they trust and put stock in, do not (perhaps) have any motivation and consequences that compel them to go back and research their ideas/claims.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Aug 10, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kinda...

Actually the people guessing the cow weight were personally interested – they would win money. And we do not have that some clear, equal motivator. Or more to the point we do not have a motivator to be accurate – we have motivation to see things optimistically, as per your point.

If we had a little stock market with bets on wolves wins this year and the year after and actual money were at stake then I bet we would be very accurate as a community if we could get enough members, you need over a thousand or so as I recall from the book.

by Django Z on Aug 10, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is what I meant

when I said they were disinterested, I meant they had no vested interest in how much the cow actually weighs—they just wanted to guess right. They had no interest in pretending the cow was thinner than it actually was.

You are right that if we had money at stake, real money and a real sample, our average would probably be pretty accurate.

by Eric in Madison on Aug 10, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The commitment it takes to being a TWolves fan these days! ;)

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Aug 10, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just read that Souhan column.

The guy really doesn’t know a lot about the NBA. He does have a very good baseball mind, and he knows enough to have a valid opinion on the NFL, but I get really sick of reading his Wolves columns.

His reasoning for panning the Rambis hire? He cut his teeth as a Lakers assistant, while all great head coaches start as head coaches of minor league teams. Really? That’s why Rambis will be a bad coach? You don’t think you should look into how Lakers players view him, or their defensive stats after Phil entrusted him with the D?

I have no idea whether or not Rambis will be a good coach. But I do know that if he isn’t one, then the fact that he didn’t get experience as a CBA head coach like the great Flip Saunders won’t be the reason. Jim Souhan decided before he started any research that he would criticize Rambis’ resume, and then he Google-searched a few CBA coaches. That was a lazy column.

Also, I had to laugh when I read Souhan’s opinion that there were several “intriguing head coaching candidates available” this summer, and then listed Sam Mitchell, Avery Johnson, and Jeff Van Gundy as his examples. You’re right, Jim. Three guys who failed at their last jobs, notoriously fight with players, and from whom you generally know what you’re going to get are much more “intriguing” than the top assistant, defensive architect, and head-coach in waiting of last year’s NBA champions.

by LoveTo on Aug 9, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Always love a good roast of columnists short on talent!
Also, good points.

by Mplax on Aug 9, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I loved the point Souhan made...

… about Larry Brown’s experience at Davidson (zero games coached) as a key factor in his development. Ouuuch.

by TheH on Aug 11, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

What strikes me is that Souhan thinks that...

…minor league coaching experience is a key thing…

…but minor league GM experience is a negative.

Me? I’m pretty sure that a guy who runds a NBDL team goes through a lot of options on trades, managing salary and so on. This is great experience for doing it on the big show. Guys with no prior experience doing that are essentially captive to specialists on staff for providing input. A NBDL guy would not have much staff, and would be figuring out things on his own in low risk situations. Great learning experience.

by timmuggs on Aug 11, 2009 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

The book is called The Wisdom of Crowds

I’m guessing that’s where you read that story about the cows.

It’s by James Surowiecki. A very interesting read. There are a number of important qualifiers on how and when collective wisdom works and this board doesn’t really meet all of those qualifications. (we don’t have anything at stake, we aren’t being weighted equally, etc.)

But I do agree in general with the concept and how it might apply to discussion boards like this. The problem is that a few posters can become inequally influential and that completely undermines the basis for this concept.

by Django Z on Aug 10, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

The amazing things is that with hundreds of people, the closest guess was 3 pounds off.

I mean people shouldn’t be terribly far off. Let’s just say the cow weighs 1000 pounds and 95% of people are smart enough to guess between 700-1300.

If you have 200 people guessing you should get a lot closer than that. Randoming between 700-1300 a total of 190 times (to control for idiot guessers here are my results on 10 trials.
1: 1000, 1001, 1007
2: 1002, 1005, 1009
3: 1003, 994, 1007
4: 996, 995, 994
5: 1000, 1001, 1002
6: 993, 1009, 1011 (fail)
7: 991, 990, 1011 (bigger fail)
8: 1004, 1005, 1005
9: 999, 1003, 1006
10: 1000, 1000, 1001, 1001, 1002, 998 (This group freaking rocks)

So the winners are, 0,2,3,4,0,7,9,4,1,0 off. An average of 3 off. Okay… so I guess if there were only 200 guessers then a winner being 3 pounds off isn’t that bad.

Ran it again with 300 people and the winners were 1,0,1,1,0,1,1,1,1,0 pounds off. So if this fair really had upwards of 1000 people guessing then they are quite the outlier.

Two things to take into account
1. I have no clue about a cows weight, sorry if 1000 pounds is stupid
2. If the number was something that wasn’t pleasing to the eye, people might be less likely to go for it, although with a large group I don’t know how valid this could be.

Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.

by Zaig on Aug 10, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm just impressed

That you took the time to test this out. That’s amazing!

Perhaps I should restate my general intent with posting the story about the cow, and that was the general observation that our collective wisdom is going to be a more accurate assessment (in this case of the job Kahn is doing and the Twolves in general) than a given national writer/columnist.

That’s all.

Yes, we’re biased; yes, we have no incentives to be more accurate or consequences if we’re not, etc etc. I do think, however, that we are more invested in being accurate in our assessments than a national columnist does—what generates more hits, Kahn doing solid GM work or Kahn bungling the draft with by drafting a second PG when the first could be Pete Maravich v2.0, etc etc.?

I guess for me, beyond this wisdom of the crowds stuff, what I have taken from all this interesting discussion is questioning what really motivates a national columnist, and by extension what rewards them? Is a guy like Bill Simmons really rewarded for calling everything like it is, or for calling enough things like they are and using the rest for entertaining humor (usually of the “aren’t you glad this isn’t your team?” variety)? Are any of the ESPN guys rewarded for accurate analysis, or for good enough analysis while maintaining (or not burning) connections? How much of a stake, at this point, does Hollinger have in PER being the best player evaluation metric—or taking the flip side, what would it cost Hollinger to admit that PER isn’t perfect or other metrics are just as good (note—this is more a rhetorical statement to illustrate my point, and not necessarily an argument that I’m claiming)?

I guess it just makes me appreciate the local coverage we get all the more, even though I’d love for us to get some good, positive national coverage.

"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."

by biggity2bit on Aug 10, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, one other big flaw with my sample

It’s completely random. Only two of my “group averages” fell within 1 point of 1000. Some were as far off as 29 because that’s how random samples work in small groups like 300.

Assuming that guy’s cow study is accurate, it’s an interesting phenomenom. It’d be fun to look at that more in depth. (Shoot it’s probably been done.) Just grab 50 people and have then guess the age of 10-15 pictures. Not many of the 50 people will be exactly right, but it’d be interesting to see how they do as a group.

(I get bored at work and Excel is a fun toy.)

Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.

by Zaig on Aug 10, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

of course

the accuracy of the crowds guess on the cows weight could also depend on how much exposure the crowd as a whole has with cows. for instance, if the fair was held in the middle of dairy land, I would imagine that the avg of the estimates woudl be much more accurate then if you held the fair in the middle of say london or new york city. if for no other reason then there would be far fewer outlier guess’

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Aug 11, 2009 11:08 AM CDT reply actions  

But

People should still error too high and too low. By how much might differ, but the average should stay similar.

Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.

by Zaig on Aug 11, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's something from John Hollinger to mull over

This is peculiar stuff

While other teams have gained more attention as belt-tighteners, the T’pups have quietly joined their ranks. Trading Craig Smith just to be rid of a $2.7 million obligation to Sebastian Telfair next year has to qualify as a low point, and one gets the impression they’re pretty happy to defer a $3 million obligation to Ricky Rubio a couple years into the future. They dumped Mike Miller and Randy Foye, eventually acquiring a non-guaranteed player they can waive (Chucky Atkins), and their only foray into free agency was a low-wattage bid for Ryan Hollins.

If Al Jefferson returns to his All-Star-caliber level of the first half of last season it lifts Minnesota half a notch above doormat status, but the Wolves leaked a lot of talent since their strong January last season.

Only cowards pray for rain.

by Auswolf on Aug 12, 2009 7:17 AM CDT reply actions  

From a national view point

Each one of these trades, taken by itself, is a WTF kind of trade. I mean really, Foye & Miller for trash & the #5 pick?? Why would you trade ANYONE for Q Rich unless you know something most everyone else doesn’t?? All they are seeing are these little pieces popping up on the wire and they aren’t giving any thought at all to the big picture. I think thier thought is " what kind of team is this??" Heck, I’m working with a guy who thinks the Wolves have too many PG’s, just because we took four during the draft. I have told him the breakdown and what happened and how we actually need a solid vet PG and he just looks at me like “D%^&, are you stupid?!?” So I get where the national media is coming from and I wish, likebiggity, that we would get some positive national coverage. But then again, there is no bigger rivalry than Red Sox v Yankees. Just try telling that to a Cards/Cubs fan!!

I will say, though, that if we start the season with this roster and no Rubio, then the National media will say “Look at these moron’s. We told you they didn’t know what they were doing!!” and I may have to agree. I am confident, however, that the Kahn is not done.

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Aug 12, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions  

An excellent article from Henry Abbott at TrueHoop...

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-43-41/Ripping-the-Timberwolves-Down-to-the-Studs.html

This is exactly the type of article I was begging for when I wrote this. A thoughtful, yet appropriately skeptical, analysis of our off-season that breaks out of the “T’Wolves don’t know what they’re doing” mold. The first thing I have seen where the journalist actually considers things from a “Could this work?” angle rather than pontificating from a tired perpsective.

Henry, did you visit us here and read this? Either way, thanks for a fair assessment of our franchise. First one I’ve seen in a while.

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Aug 14, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions  

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