Post-Game Open Thread; We Won!
by wyn on Jan 19, 2010 9:26 AM CST
Email
PrintMaybe it was in honor of an important figure in American History, maybe it was the fact that Philly whiffed at every chance the Wolves gave them to win the game. Some things for us to consider:
- Jonny Flynn: aberration or beginning of an upward trend in his performance?
- No Love: Did Love's absence contribute in any way to the team's performance? Or is it just coincidental?
- Damien Wilkins: Great Timberwolf or Greatest Timberwolf?
- Ramon Sessions: Only 10 minutes yesterday, since Flynn was playing so well. But if Iverson and Lou Williams are playing together, what better opportunity is there for a Flynn/Sessions backcourt? Does Ramon's 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 turnover line indicate he simply cannot perform with so few minutes?
- Any change in opinion about acquiring Andre Iguodala or Thaddeus Young after watching them yesterday?
- Ryan Hollins: 5 fouls, 2 turnovers, 1 block in under 7 minutes.
A win is a win and with a record like 9-33 each win is a huge moral victory. But for some reason, yesterday's win didn't feel as uplifting as the previous 8. I've never been the fan who writes-off their team when they're horrible, but, if the GameThreads are any indication, optimism is in short supply for many of us.
47 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
David Kahn Quote
This is from Jerry Zgoda’s blog today…
* Former Timberwolf Rodney Carney played 10 minutes, all of them in the first half. David Kahn said before the game that he was interested in re-signing Carney, but said he and Rambis leaned more toward signing Sasha Pavlovic because they considered his all-around game better.
This year Pavlovic has a Per of 4.6…4.6!!!! Last year it was 8.6, the year before that it was 7.2. I know it was just a small signing, but this quote terrifies me.
I've had a post expressing my anger from picking Pavlovic over Carney...
… but it always came off as petty. Pavlovic’s PER may have fallen off, but his shooting percentages have been pretty terrible through and through. And Carney proved last year that he was both the 3-pt shooter AND wing fast-breaker Kahn said he was looking for. And he cost slightly more than half Pavlovic and wouldn’t have taken up the bi-annual exception.
This one really pisses me off.
www.canishoopus.com
Why?
Carney is better than Pavlovic, this is true, but neither is that good. Carney’s not the 3-pt shooter Kahn was looking for; he shoots 34% from beyond the arc for his career. Pavlovic shot 41% last year. Why get angry over two mediocre players who are sweeping up 10mpg, and probably barely deserve that?
I'm not angry...
More scared by the concept of Kahn and Rambis thinking he has a better “all-around game”. You could argue he is currently the worst player in the league that is getting consistent minutes. I encourage anyone to come up with a player worse than Pavlovic (must be getting consistent minutes).
Responding to Wyn being "pissed" on the Pavlovic over Carney deal
Terrence Williams might be worse. DeShawn Stevenson too.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willite01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stevede01.htmlv
I would gladly take either of those players, though, over both Carney or Pavlovic. Terrance Williams has a lot of potential and is still just a rookie. Stevenson, if nothing else, can bring defense and swagger to a team, not to mention that the team he is playing for is a mess. While the same can maybe be said of Pavlovic, I think that he, given his performance, production, and body language over the course of this season, is the worst of those 4…
I think there is two much emphasis on this
We already saw what Carney could do and quite frankly it wasn’t much. Pav’s came in here and underperformed, proving that he doesn’t deserve a contract. I’m actually happier with the way it played out b/c now there is no chance that we sign either next year.
If there are moves by Kahn I’m more concerned with it would be picking Jonny over Steph Curry and giving Ryan Hollins a 3 year deal.
I think Jason Collins is still getting minutes..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I looked into Collins
Before I dared make that statement. He doesn’t qualify in the ESPN Per rankings. But if he was playing more, he would clearly be the worst player in the league.
Washington has a candidate.
Bullets Forever posters, responding to my extolling the zen-like quality of following Corey Brewer, pointed me in the direction of DeShawn Stevenson. PER 4.2, getting 16.3 minutes a night.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I don't have an undying hate for David Kahn over this move, I just think it was completely foolish.
Regardless of a comparison with Pavlovic’s performance, Carney’s return would’ve brought two things that this team sorely lacks:
1. Team chemistry. Not necessarily through friendly chemistry (who knows about that) but in players’ on-court familiarity with each other. Not “he can get 10 points per game” but “he likes this cut” or “he’s good at getting me the ball here.” That kind of chemistry only comes from time and Carney’s 1 year with Jefferson, Brewer, Gomes, Love and Cardinal would’ve been beneficial.
2. Fan recognition. Carney’s streaky, but often successful, three-point shooting and powerful dunks always got huge cheers from the crowd. Building a familiarity with players in their fanbase is huge for a pro sports team’s marketability, especially when your record is 8-34.
These obviously aren’t things that would’ve saved the franchise or even the season, but given Pavlovic’s statistical history I have a tough time seeing how he is considered a better all-around player. More experienced? Absolutely. But I think shooting 46% from the line says WAY more about Pavlovic than shooting 41% from downtown. Good shooters don’t have career free throw percentages below 70%.
I would say the same thing about Stevenson and Terrence Williams. I’m not concerned with the stats Carney would’ve put up as much as I think teammates and fans could’ve used that extra bit of history with the man in such an emotionally draining season.
www.canishoopus.com
He's also a very capable defender
I think Pavlovic got overrated because he started alongside LeBron the year the Cavs went to the Finals. The truth is his current production is pretty much right in live with his career averages.
The red flag for me was that he was a free agent in the first place. When a team like the Suns release a supposedly good shooter to make room for guys like Jarron Collins and Jared Dudley, something should set of an alarm in any other GM’s head.
I distinctly remember
LBJ pleading to get Sasha more burn during that playoff run, and then when it actually happened, it was a disaster.
He averaged 23 mins/game and they lost in the Finals
Whatever happened to them in the playoffs didn’t have much to do with Pavlovic.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jan 19, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
They cut him because of his contract
It was like Atkins’, partially nonguaranteed. They were trying feverishly to get under the tax and that trade along with cutting him and buying out Ben Wallace helped them. Collins is a vet’s minimum guy and Dudley was already on their roster.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jan 19, 2010 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
And to clarify...
Yes, Carney is below 70% for career FT%. I was more referring to Pavlovic’s reputation as a shooter and mistakenly implying that Carney was a better shooter.
www.canishoopus.com
Indeed, one fluke year of 41% does not a shooter make.
Looking at the rest of Pavlovic’s seasons, I’m seeing a lot of sub 30%s.
Kahn's less significant moves
such as this one and trading Rhino/Telfair and then signing Sessions long term does make me shake my head. I hope his record is better with his big moves.
That said, while it won’t be said publicly, I think these moves were motivated as much by cleaning house of McHale players as anything. Kind of obvious that unless a player was a legit rotation player or had an unmovable contract he was a goner.
Jonny Flynn: aberration...
…but hopefully the beginning of an upward trend in his performance. He’s a rollar coaster with his consistency.
Also, it seems that in games that Gomes starts at the 4, Jonny does much much better
The season opener, the three games around that road win in Denver, and last night.
Tought that was plausible
that perhaps Flynn played best with more of a quick release, parked outside jump shooter, or maybe a PF playing outside the lane (although Love is usually out setting high screens for Flynn). However, the numbers don’t back it up. They don’t show good +/- numbers together and in the 8 games before yesterday where Gomes started at the 4, (first 2, the Denver win and the next 5) Flynn was pretty much on his season average, 14.5 ppg, 5.2 asst. 2.5 TO. Like you said, he’s been up and down, I don’t think it has much to do with the surrounding personnel.
Perhaps
FWIW: I would add some context: aberration to a consistent 14 ppg, 4-5 assists a night. It’s not like it’s a Pech dropping 24 on the Celtics type aberration.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Reading accounts of the game I saw something, like the fabled unicorn: The word "defense" and name Jefferson mentioned together in a positive way.
from star tribune:
“Jefferson stood tall at both ends of the court. "
Pioneer Press:
“Jefferson also played a pivotal role in the Wolves’ defense, which limited the Sixers (13-27) to four points and no free-throw attempts in overtime.”
And there were more… and he did his usual 23 pts and 13 rebounds as well.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 19, 2010 9:38 AM CST reply actions
A bad offense
makes a good defense. Philly looked poor all around but still some credit to the Wolves. That said, their perimeter defense is atrocious.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
This team won in spite of Love's absense. Love is our second best player. [and best statistically]
If we get perimeter shooting and defense we generally win. We got some tonight. If we had Love and we got perimeter shooting and defense it would have been easier.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 19, 2010 9:45 AM CST reply actions
Iguodala also crossed my mind for a second .. but wouldn’t want him; nog a good enough shooter.
Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009
It's too bad we never had a shot at Granger
Couple seasons above 40% beyond the arc.
It was a joke
Funny, eh? Like running into a wall.
This is going to come back to bite me...
But you know who didn’t look that bad…
Samuel Dalembert. If one year of Sammy Goaltend was the “price” we had to pay for Iguodala, it wouldnt’ be the worst thing in the world (assuming we’re able to teach Iguodala what it means to take a “good” shot).
On the flip side, it’s always a bad sign when the announcers keep reminding us that a player, in this case Dalembert, ONLY has one foul by the 3rd quarter. They must have said that ten times.
I like Dalembert
He’d be expensive, but would also be the missing defensive big we’ve all talked about forever. If you could get another reasonable asset for taking his contract then you’re not making a big mistake (assuming we’d trade a Blount/Cardinal type mixture).
However, long term, he doesn’t fit. The more time passes and the more nothing happens, the more I am convinced that Kahn Rambis are going to wait until the draft and FA to build this team, and they’re going to do it with the expectation of Rubio being one of the last pieces necessary (so we’d try to add a starter and role player both next year and the year after). Seems like it’s going to be forever until we’re competitive, but then I read somewhere today that the Blazer’s are in year 5 of their rebuilding, and OKC is in year 3-4 of their rebuilding. If we count this as year 1, then expecting another couple years of crapitude is par for the course, ergo: building towards Rubio.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Jan 19, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
Re: trade deadline
I agree that Kahn/Rambis will wait until draft and FA to make a major move unless an amazing offer comes there way. However, I do think Gomes and Sessions could be moved at deadline. Both have reasonable contracts and would offer solid depth to a playoff bound team.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jan 19, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
He's not that bad
2nd in the league in blocks, 3rd in rebound percentage. Generally a solid player over his career. 8th in fouls though, but he’s still playing 25 minutes a game. Basically an older, taller, stronger Joakim Noah, who we all love.
Noah's a lot better overall
They’re both shotblocker/rebounder types, but Noah is quicker and is a far superior passer. Dalembert’s bigger but the height difference is negligible. Dalembert’s a paint-only guy (and a good one at that) but Noah can do so much more.
Good thread, Wyn
1. Still to early to say. But Jonny showed flashes of very good play. Also cf Randy Foye’s rookie season.
2. Pure coincidence. K Love’s absence, however, may have prompted a “we have to step it up without him.”
3. Does Stephen Colbert read Canis Hoopus?
4. Is it me, or is Ramon performing worse of late?
5. Pass on Andre; Thaddeus, hmmm.
6. Projected foul out in 8 minutes 24 seconds of play.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
A Positive Post
Last night Charles Barkley said the Wolves have some good young talent on their roster. He was referring specifically to Flynn and Jefferson in yesterday’s game.
On the bright side, we are not Washington right now. The Wizards must wish they had the 5th pick back?
The Wolves with a talented wing player are going to improve enormously, hopefully next year…
I’m excited about the trade deadline and I trust that Kahn will only make a deal if it is talent wise in the wolves favor. Can’t say I’ve felt that way for a looooooong time.
Right now we all just have to hunker down and expect the losing to continue this year.
I think this is the only time this year
that the Wizards fans are probably ok with trading the fifth for Foye and Miller. Foye has done very well since Arenas got suspended and Miller, get this, hit 4/4 their last game… I know… I had to look twice too. He took 4 shots!
Only watched the 4th
But they showed something that they’ve lacked at times and that they can’t lack because they’re not good: grit. They battled for rebounds and crashed the offensive glass. They should’ve run their offense better in the OT (Is Cardinal the only guy who knows how to throw a bounce pass to Jefferson in the post?), but they did enough to win.
On the flip side, what was up with Eddie Jordan’s rotations? They have a lot “decent or good, not great” players, but Brand and Speights were dominating on the glass and he went small in OT. Iverson was hitting some shots in that quarter, too, yet he sat for the end of the game and OT. Dalembert was a good sub because he could overplay Jefferson, but I’m surprised he kept Willie Green in there just because he could guard Flynn. Was Jonny torching the other Sixers so badly that that was necessary (again, I didn’t see the first 3 qtrs)? On another note, the Wolves defense played the Sixers well enough that Green had to make shots in OT to beat them, and he, um, couldn’t.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jan 19, 2010 1:41 PM CST reply actions
Green was also shooting quite well.
He didn’t even miss till the fourth, when the wheels came off for him. As for Iverson, he only hit four shots all game and only hit one in the fourth quarter. He wasn’t doing much at all with his shot (4-12 from the field), but was doing a modest job of moving the ball.
I wasn’t surprised that Green was in the game for OT with the way he had been playing.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Jan 19, 2010 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Green had the biggest swing from on-fire to freezing cold I've ever seen
Early he was awesome but late in the game it looked like he had never shot a basketball before.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Next Game
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
