Who can shoot the poorest?
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 23, 2010 7:23 PM CST
in Game Threads
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PrintMinnesota Timberwolves at Milwaukee Bucks, Jan 23, 2010 7:30 PM CST
The Flynn/Jennings match up has lost a little of its luster since the last time around. Can the Wolves stick with the Bucks in the 2nd half? Can the solid and improving play of Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, and Corey Brewer continue? Will Jonny Flynn pass the ball? Will Kurt Rambis run reasonable rotations?
The answers to all these questions and more...tonight at the Bradley Center. Opposition blogging can be found here: Brew Hoop
Enjoy.
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So winnable
We need to get some of these wins – lots of winnable games recently. They 9-21 over their last 30. We’re 8-20 over our last 28. They are not better than us, or ay least by much.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
League Pass is free on TV and computer.
Looks like the Bucks broadcast.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
OK, so I have an AllAccess account.. Do I need to go sign up for a different league pass account?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Can’t find a single mention of it being free on the website.. Anyone know how I can get in to it?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Sorry
Somebody had a link to it from a game thread earlier this week. Sorry.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
it's on league pass
which for some odd reason i am getting for free since the MLK day game.
They run a free week every year to recruit more buyers
It will not be free after Sunday.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
ah. thanks.
Did the announcers really agree that Flynn is a better distributor than Jennings? Taking homerism the completely opposite direction.
I think I'll mute the broadcast if that's what they said. Wowzer.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 7:37 PM CST up reply actions
the context for the comment was even more odd
since they showed that Jennings led all rookies with 6.1 APG.
They just talked about how long we were
except Al Jefferson, except Kevin Love, except Jonny Flynn….But otherwise, we’re really long!
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
Jennings
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a guy come out of the gate so hot and then proceed to go so cold. His FG% is down to 38%. I mean, he was on fire early on this season, and for more than just a handful of games.
Those pronouncing him ROTY
with 75 games to go in the regular season must feel a little foolish.
Free Alando!
True, but he looked like the real deal. He was scary good early on.
I knew he’d cool off a little bit, but the bottom fell out. Kinda crazy.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
He had an impossibly hot shooting hand
It just wasn’t sustainable. And he dropped 55 on a mediocre defensive unit (the W’s)
Free Alando!
atdhe.net does have a feed
for those of us without free League Pass, ie outside the US
http://www.atdhe.net/12170/watch-minnesota-timberwolves-vs-milwaukee-bucks
Free Alando!
We have length and athleticism?
Give me some of what these guys are smoking.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
Yeah
I thought I was watching the wrong game.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Would be good in Dairyland
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Brewer, yes!
May be this 3-point thing will stick with him. That would be huge!
Good ball movement
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Jennings pull-up 2-point jumpers
That’s what we want tonight defensively
Al is such a beast
in the post
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
just learn to pass please
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
I'm not saying Wilkins should always shoot that three...
but he NEVER shoots it. With any scouting teams should know to double off Wilkins at all times.
Oddly enought...
…Brewer and Flynn are both +1, while Jefferson is -1 and Love is -2
That’s why I’m not a big fan of the +/- stat….
How dare they allow Charlie Bell to go off on them!
They deserve to be benched! Harumph!
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
I love
Seeing Telly Hughes as sideline guy for the Bucks. Was it an “asset to be named later” from the Joe Smith – Sam Cassell trade.
jennings..
…actually knows how to set up angles and teammates.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Yeah, it's easy to bash Jennings' poor shooting after he came out of the gates hot...
… but he’s got really nice point guard skills and can really distribute the ball. And, I think he’ll end up being a good scorer too. I think he’s better than Flynn (for what it’s worth).
I also love
Complimentary League Pass for MLK week.
Why wouldn't we try Jawai
for some spot minutes against Bogut? Seems like a better matchup compared to Hollins.
How long did it take for Hollins to foul.
He will set a world record for fouling out one day….
Free Alando!
He probably wasn't expecting Wayne to shoot a jumper from 15 ft
when there was no one near him and the way to the basket open.
Not to split hairs
but “often”
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
The adthe feed is up
For those of us who don’t have a MLK type figure in our national psyche……
Free Alando!
Can you not get the League Pass Broadband?
High quality. XAnd1 up above could guide you probably.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
I could (and probably should).....
but a lot of these games occur while I’m at work given the time zone differences.
Plus the bride frowns upon me sitting in front of a terminal on a sunny day!
Free Alando!
Scott Skiles has done wonders for Bogut's game
Being healthy helps too. I’ve always felt he can be a 20-10 player who can anchor a defense when he’s not hurt
How is it possible every team we play shouts 60% in the first quarter?
It seems that way right? Teams come out blazin and we spend the rest of the game digging out.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
Wow....total defensive breakdown there
Not only does Pech fail to rotate to Stackhouse, he didn’t even know Stack had the ball…maybe didn’t even know Stack was there in the first place
whenever pech is in bad things happen
Our big man depth is BAAAAAAD
Why is he in? That's the question to be asked.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
Than Pech OR Hollins
Jawai isn’t that good yet, but he doesn’t make as many bone headed plays. Pech and Hollins are awful.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
best of the "back ups" is cardinal.... but are we trying to win or "evaluating".
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
The evaluating was done after pre-season and the first 20 games
Don’t know what else we need to see of Pecherov anymore. He sucks.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
using that standard
we should have signed many people.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Sorry
didn’t mean to sound so snarky.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
I've been a huge fan of Warrick's
Ever since 2002 when he and Melo teamed to win the NCAA tourney for Syracuse
I really wanted us to draft him in 05, but Mac went with McCants…..~_~
Granted Danny Danger would have been a better pick than either of them….
You know what they say about American beer, right?
It’s like making love in a canoe.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
It's close to water.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
That said
the microbrews….We shall save this topic for an exclusive thread another day.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
agreed...
…american microbrews are out of this world right now.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Yeah. I'll never understand the attraction.
But then I guess Miller employs about, what, 65% of Wisconsin…..
Free Alando!
That's if all the workers are not calling in sick hungover
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
after 3 Summits a Miller Lite doesn't sound to bad...
and down 15 to Milwaukee means the drinking must continue…
Pass me ball pass me ball pass me ball pass me ball pass me...
…OMG I HAVE BALL MUST SHOOT MUST SHOOT MUST SHOOT
Operators standing by
the calls are coming faster than a PBS pledge drive
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
you guys obviously haven't heard...
…about the bogut section.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
here you go
http://www.nba.com/bucks/squad6.html
free tickets if you can get loud and drunk for an entire game.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
bogut makes slightly more coin
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Just keeping my eye on the rest of the boxes
Charlotte are sneaking up on the Magic. Going to kill my multi
Free Alando!
I have a great piece on Charlotte's defense...
…that I’m putting into this week’s NBA update
They play the best defense in the NBA, and it’s pretty eye-opening to break down how they do it. Especially in comparison to our defense.
We should note too...
….that the Bucks employ largely the same defensive strategy, with largely the same results
Have Gerald Wallace and Tyson Chandler?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
And Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw
Two underrated defenders.
But even just looking at things as basic as their spacing, timing, and rotations, we fall woefully short compared to the Cats
Wasn't Dave Wohl
supposed to be a great teacher of defensive principles?
In theory, I guess
I had more hope in Laimbeer improving Love and Jefferson’s defense, but slow process.
Good example of what we noted yesterday...
….Flynn makes a great setup for Love, but doesn’t get the assist because Love holds the ball trying to avoid the shotblock
Now that was pretty
I can’t freakin’ believe Brewer. Wow.
Eraserhead
for the 21st century
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Shots of the crowd/Squad 6...
…so Milwaukee isn’t typically known for the physical beauty of its residents….?
New Jersey only down 18 in the first quarter in Utah!
well on the way to 3-40. Ouch.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
I can see them breaking the record
this year, though it will take some effort.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Indeed
I think they may hit double digits in wins. But one never knows. They are awful.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
That's Brewer for you.
But he is beginning to look like a legit starting 2, at least this month.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
I like the 4 flynn assists at the half
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:35 PM CST reply actions
You know Brewer actually looks sorta decent..
I don’t see many Wolves games outta state, but he’s not too, too bad…
brewer has turned a corner... his shooting has "vastly" improved..... I thought he had to consistently shoot better than low 40's to be an NBA "rotation" player......but if he keeps up hitting 3's he could be a legitimate NBA starter...
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:36 PM CST reply actions
That team is going to be scary good...
…if they can get Tyson Chandler back to 100% and figure out their PG situation
If they hadn't
it’s a pick we could have sat on while the protection drops off it.
it’s the Utah pick that is more “now or never”.
Free Alando!
In a supposedly weak draft
this is not good. Maybe they can pick a diamond in the rough, otherwise not picking Lawson come back to bite us.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
If Brewer can become a "Lock down" defender and continue to improve his offense.... he could be an allstar.....that blows my mind after his first year shooting.... and out of control drives and inability to finish in transition.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:38 PM CST reply actions
Bro, that's pretty optimistic...
I’m thinking a more athletic Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier type guy here…
by SF on Jan 23, 2010 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
IF, and its a big IF he continues to improve his offense as he has... he's shooting 44% on 3's in January (before this game) and becomes a lock down defender, he could become a "nice guy" version of Artest
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
He reminds of a young (Detroit Pistons young) version of Dennis Rodman...
…Rodman was amazingly good at pressuring the ball on the perimeter and harassing the ballhandler with his long arms. But even then Rodman was much stronger than Brewer, which allowed him to rebound better than Corey can. As Brewer matures, I think he could become a Pippen-like defender—their bodies and athleticism are similar—but he’ll never be the offensive player Pippen was. Still, I’ll take it. Like Love, Brewer has a unique set of skills that can really help a team with better talent. This is why we need John Wall.
we are likely to get Charlotte pick barring injuries, but we don't want them to win
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:40 PM CST reply actions
oops... we don't want them to win "too much" or we pick in the high teens or low 20's.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:41 PM CST reply actions
miami "spanking" sacramento by 33 in
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 8:44 PM CST reply actions
I have some interesting numbers about the Kings and Kevin Martin...
….that I’m putting into the weekly NBA update
Let’s just say that Tyreke Evans + Kevin Martin = fail, Tyreke Evans + Beno Udrih = win
That's what I said...
and everyone got mad about it LOL. Told ya’ll.
by College Wolf on Jan 23, 2010 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
i absolutely LOVE corey brewer...
its not just that he gives 110% every night, you can see his improvement from game to game, he’s also motivating me for my games as well… i used to watch “kobe’s doin work” before every game…
I heard that Kobe Doin Work movie was sorta off...
was it actually good?
by SF on Jan 23, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
yeah actually it was...
kinda inspiring… even more than watching games itself… u get to see more of the communicating thing, that u dont see when youre watching the game online (as is do)…
at this point i wanna throw this one into it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps
it absolutely drives me crazy everytime i watch it… im just so hyped up before the game…
You guys see Stan Robinson for UConn today?
That dude has some hops… wouldn’t mind him with the Charlotte or Utah pick…
I was thinking the same thing
I think he can be an impact player, especially on defense, in the mold of a Josh Smith of GForce. And maybe even just be flat out as good as those guys in time and the right circumstances.
Yeah,
He just seems so powerful. Plus with that 6’9" frame, he could really hold down either forward spot really well. Be a great spark off the bench in his first year
by SF on Jan 23, 2010 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
I really want this team to pick up some athletes who can defend multiple positions. Having guys like Josh Smith/Marvin Williams/Horford or Gerald Wallace and Diaw means you almost never get abused in switches defensively. A guy like Robinson would help us that way quite a bit.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Robinson has some character issues...
… that I’m not sure we want in our locker room. Given how hard we’ve worked to build a core of “nice guys,” I don’t think you draft a guy with Robinson’s personality unless he’s a superstar talent. He does have nice hops though.
Nets down 19.
They have a death grasp on a lot of ping pong balls.
The League Pass feed
drives me nuts. I pay money for it, and it just stops for like a full minute five times a game.
sorry to hear that
I’m trying out the free version but it froze on me so bad last night the game was unwatchable. So I won’t be paying for it. To be sure, TimeWarner Cable is slowww but Netflix never gives me any issues at all.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Do we really need to double Bogut everytime?
We just love to automatically double guys that haven’t proven they deserve it yet and yield wide open 3’s as a result.
I actually think Bogut is proven enough to warrant a double
But in general, we do double team unnecissarily a lot
Luc Ricard Mbah A Moute....
…is one hell of a defender
He and Bogut have given the Bucks a great inside/outside tandem on defense this year
No rotations in the halfcourt, no athletes to run in the fast break
And we never stop the ball either way
Yeah, but can't unathletic dudes play defense?
I mean defense seems to be as much about position as athleticism. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to get to the right spots at least.
by SF on Jan 23, 2010 9:01 PM CST up reply actions
I don't either
And it’s not like we have stupid players. Love, Brewer, Ellington, Gomes….those guys are pretty smart defenders, at least in a team sense.
The athletes comment was just in regards to stopping the ball on the fastbreak though. Can’t deny the fastbreak if you can’t stay in front of the ball.
Jennings is breaking down the defense every single time down the floor
Or we double Bogut, leaving someone wide open for a jumper.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
If we could do something as simple as stopping Jennings when he has the ball...
….this game would be all but tied.
The Bucks announcers have already mentioned 3 or 4 times how good Jennings is at staying in front of Flynn on the dribble. It’s definitely not happening the other way though.
That's exactly my point.
If Flynn is so quick on offense, where does it go on defense? What do the Wolves do in practise?? I’m not trying to over-simplify this, but these guys need to understand that stopping the opponent from scoring two points is just as important as scoring two points. It’s science.
by SF on Jan 23, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
I think Flynn...
….is really struggling to adjust to man-to-man defense. Syracuse played zone every game, every practice, so he’s got two years of “bad” habits to kick
Cavs - Thunder game getting fairly exciting
Boobie with a 3 to go up 2. Less than 10 seconds left. Thunder lost last second last night.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
Cavs win by 1.
And now Detroit are coming from the heavens to beat the Blazers……
Good Times.
Free Alando!
These Bucks announcers are pretty observant
Another comment about something we noted yesterday….far fewer deep catches for Big Al
Looking awful
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
our passers are clueless on making the entry pass.....
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:11 PM CST reply actions
and bogut does actually a nice job on the inside...
you cant do much against big al on offense anyways…
i'd like to see more burn for ellington though... cant get enough of those glue guys...
a line up with sessions (or flynn if hes havin a good day), ellington, brewer, love and jefferson should be fun to watch… even though we get beat up on defense, hell we at least are entertaining on offense… (which is sometimes hard to watch, when even the oppenents get the play before our guys do)
Hollins
PF Machine
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Our bigs are not having a good game...
Jefferson can’t get any space against Bogut, and Love is starting to hang out 20 feet from the hoop after getting a couple of his shots blocked
our team isn't trying to work jefferson, so he's frustrated and taking shots farther out than he should
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
Don't really have a choice
We can’t just dump it into Jefferson and expect him to come out on top of Bogut for the game. Bogut’s too tall, too long, and too good a defender.
I disagree, if we pounded it inside Jefferson could foul out Bogut. Jefferson has the moves to outplay virtually anyone in the NBA..... the only exception might be Howard.....
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
Al's not that kind of player
Too finesse
As a whole, Jefferson draws the fewest fouls of any of his big man peers.
If we kept pounding it inside, Bogut does't have the quickness to cover Jefferson. Jefferson is mostly getting the ball at 15 feet, not deep inside. 15 feet to too far out to "out quick" Bogus to the hoop
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
Bogut's a lot quicker than he looks
And if you’re within 10 feet of the hoop, size and length matter a lot more than quickness, for a big.
come on we have all seen jefferson make much taller players look foolish in the deep block, the classic case is Yao......Jefferson turned him into a pretzel.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
Traditionally, Jefferson really struggles against Bogut-types
Check his production against Bogut, Oden, Shaq, Howard, etc
which reminds me...
and you probably saw this – Derrick Favors was a beast against Clemson the other night. He looked like Dwight Howard, minus an inch of height. If Love-Jefferson is blown up, he’d be worth grabbing.
I did see that
Best game he’s played so far
Georgia Tech is doing pretty good in conference play so far. I’d like to see Favors be more assertive and call for the ball more, but he’s very good on both ends of the floor in terms of ability.
hollins should be in the D league he is less than worthless here... he is 3rd from the bottom in the NBA in adjusted plus minus
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:17 PM CST reply actions
He's like a drunk giraffe
And frankly, that’s just plain dangerous. He should not be out there.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
post of the day
“drunk giraffe”
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
he never even played
at UCLA much
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
Another pound down
on Wolves. I have NBATV league pass and refuse to watch them tonight. Rambis said before Christmas that the defense was a priority, they are as bad this month on defense as ever. terrible. Why pay Hollins 7M when you could get a minimum guy to do his job. He must be part of the stimulus package.
I couldn't agree more...
this is ridiculous. Do these guys watch the playoffs? Seriously. No team that doesn’t play defense has ever won a championship. I challenge you to name one. They all lose and blame it on injuries/bad calls/bad luck/etc…
It’s stupid, I hate watching bad basketball
Well, CHers
I’ve seen enough this evening. Team has been flat most of the contest.
We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth.--Picasso
as i said before...
i wanna see more of sessions, ellington and brewer… the rest isnt interesting, since they all get their ass beat up… but those 3, i wanna see more of together…
brewer is havin a really nice game, i might add...
as i noticed before, even his 3pt shooting went up, cause he’s taking better ones the last couple games
I could care less who plays..
How about the coaches say this: “If you play defense, we’ll keep you out there. If not, you can work on it in practise”
so whos in your frontcourt then?
i would say those, who give more effort might be the ones who earn most of PT… so that would be ellington & brewer again :D i really like those guys…
ryan hollins, offense foul when hes not even involved in the fast break :D
this is really ridiculous
flynn doesnt know...
when to pick up the tempo… hes always SO slow setting up the offense…
The Bucks' frontcourt has killed us tonight...
….Bogut, Warrick, Ilyasova, Thomas and Delfino are a combined 25-35….
Bad defense all around..,
….frontcourt, backcourt, perimeter, interior….
Delfino nearly has a triple double tonight
11 for 22 from the 3 point line....
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions
Still leaves 38 shots from 2
For example, all of the Bucks’ made shots in the second quarter were within 16 feet of the hoop
hollins got cheated on that one...
had good position…
Everybody quit
Except for Brewer
Love just let Gadzuric get an offensive rebound right in his face without even reaching for the ball
Jefferson really seems to be an emotional type of guy...
so when he’s left alone at some point, he just loses all his faith in this guys… you gotta keep your head on your shoulders and stay strong!
but he knows that he cant do it alone...
at is shows at times… definitely
Jefferson played good team defense in the last few games......[not as good tonight]..... but we were beat on the perimeter and it frustrated him because he couldn't do anything about it!
generally when we were beat inside tonight, he was stepping up to stop penetration coming down the lane and someone would cut along the baseline behind him and that man get the pass would score. No one rotated to the baseline to cover there…..
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
*as its showing at times*
sry its 5pm in the morning and i still have not slept tonite…
5 am in the morning... i really got to go to bed... but alcohol just kept me awake... sry about that one :D
in europe we’re allowed to drink alcohol in public though…
Flynn a -30 tonight
He was absolutely taken to the woodshed by Jennings tonight.
He's why their Euros got all those open jumpers
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
their rotation is pretty weird...
but i dont think its jonnys fault… he doesnt move his legs that much on defense, but when hes goin under the screen at pickn rolls, the big guy almost NEVER shows up, so the shooter has much time to get it off…
Points in the paint Wolves 42, Bucks 38.... points out of paint....Bucks 85 and wolves 52... we were outscored outside of the paint by 33 points!!!!!!!!
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 9:55 PM CST reply actions
Well
11-23 from three versus 2-13 doesn’t help. They could not miss.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
Plus factor in we really can't score beyond 15 feet
All our offense comes from Al’s postups, Love’s putbacks, or layups in garbage time.
Just because we outscore them in the paint doesn’t mean out interior defense is better than our perimeter defense
I'm not saying jefferson or Love is a better athlete than Brewer or flynn... I'm saying, they are doing a better job on rotations than our perimeter guys... who do a terrible job.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
Not really
About 1/3 of the shots the Bucks’ big men made were beyond 15 feet from the hoop tonight. It’s not on guys like Brewer or Flynn to cover Kurt Thomas just because he’s 17 feet from the hoop. Jefferson and Love need to do a better job of stepping out of the paint on those shots.
They both also need to do a much better job showing on pick and rolls. As someone noted already, neither of them are stepping out on shooters when our perimeter guys get screened off.
So the big men are just as at fault for the defensive breakdowns as the perimeter players.
most of those points were not scored by centers or power forwards.....
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
But their centers and forwards combined to shoot 23-28
So our bigs didn’t defend any better than anyone else
my eyeballs tell me our interior defense is better than our perimeter defense.
They outscored us on fast break points 25 to 22, ….
we have TERRIBLE perimeter defense……
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
Jazz have 103 points on 59 shots
Shooting 66% with 23-30 FTs. Ouch.
'Because there are no fours.' Toine
i dont understand
why we dont leash off our young guys.. .they seem pretty restricted in our system… wayne would be a better shooter, jonny a better distributor and even corey wouldnt think as much when hes pulling one off…
I'm really kind of peaved by this game....we didn't have to lose this way......we should have pounded it inside......
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:06 PM CST reply actions
You're letting stats override common sense right now
The Bucks had us shut down in the paint tonight. There’s no way Al’s going to come out ahead going 1 on 1 with Bogut in the paint.
he did last year in January.....he score 20 [in the game Bogut played] and we won. Because Milwaukee doubled and tripled AL, it opened up shooters outside...
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
Bogut came off the bench that game...
…he only played 35 games total last year, so he was far from healthy.
Plus we just flat out had better shooters last year, and the Bucks are much better this year.
two seasons ago, Dec 15, Jefferson 23 pts and 15 rebounds, Bogut (in 38 minutes) 8 pts and 13 rebounds....I've seen outplay this guy many times.....
No defensive center can handle jefferson one on one in the low post… that creates open shots for others…..and Jefferson is passing far better than in the past.
That was our best chance to win. I don’t think we would have beaten the Bucks tonight (they were too hot from outside and we had no answer for that)…. but at least the game could have been much closer.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
I'm just not a fan of dumping it into Al all the time
Nor has it historically worked for us.
And especially this year, when we don’t have any shooters anyway, it sounds like a particularly ineffective strategy.
Al and Bogut went head to head for a fair portion of the game and Al went just 4-10 overall…so it wasn’t happening tonight. Forcing the ball into him more would just double his inefficiency for the game.
we only had jefferson inside once in a while...
kevin was lurking around on the outside and the cardinals and hollins’ im not even name… u cant force to throw it into al, as kurt pointed out… the opponents are prepared…
Indeed
I’m really kind of peaved by this game….we didn’t have to lose this way……we should have pounded it inside……
Speaks to poor effort and poor coaching. There’s no way to sugarcoat it. We lost by 33 to a franchise that’s averaged 28 wins a year the last three years. Brewer gets a lot of love on this site, as does Jefferson, Love, Gomes, Ellington – yet we’re still 9-36. There must be something wrong with this team?
by Son of Gerald Green on Jan 23, 2010 10:19 PM CST reply actions
poor effort? brewer ALWAYS gives 110%
so why should we hate him? i dont write players off, just because they dont get a chance… yeah, im high on brewer, yeah on ellington too… and hell, even when jonny’s playin bad, i still think he will improve properly…
winning isn’t everything, i just want to see improvement, thats what keeps me watching games late at night (almost mourning)… and dont tell me all of those 3 didnt make improvements as the season goes on…
We're inexperienced...?
With an imbalanced roster, no on-court leadership, and no defensive anchor?
Just because we have a bad record doesn’t mean our players are all worthless. That’s like saying the Thunder should have dumped off Durant, Green, and Westbrook last year.
I wouldn't go that far... teams have bad games. But we do have a consistent pattern of playing poor perimeter defense....
our “outside the paint” – net efficiency – offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency has been awful all year… 29th in November, 30th in December and so far, 30th in january.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
That's a deceptive stat...
…because our offensive efficiency is so bad, we’re going to rank near the bottom overall no matter how good our defensive is.
Similar to making the argument that point differential is the best way to rank a defense. If we went by that, or applied net efficiency to individual players, guys like Battier and Bowen would be considered some of the worst perimeter defenders of all time because of an aspect of their game that has nothing to do with defense.
I disagree with the premise that "net efficiency" isn't a good stat. You are right, its not a measure of defense......but I personally don't care if I win 90 to 80 or 120 to 110.
What matters is can our roster outscore opponents. Our interior defense isn’t great, but our interior scoring is near the top in the league.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
True, but if you want to single out perimeter defense as the problem..
…it’d be better to just use straight up perimeter defensive efficiency, compared to interior defensive efficiency. Not net efficiency.
Net efficiency is going to skew the stats because Love and Jefferson score much better than out wings. But that doesn’t have anything to do with how well we keep the other team from scoring….just how well we keep up.
the post above is "out of paint" efficiency......we are 29th so far this year at 68.4. The best team - Boston allows 51.1
Nov 27th at 67.1
Dec 27th at 67.7
Jan 29th at 73.8
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:22 PM CST up reply actions
The team which was 15th in "out of paint" efficienty in January had 61.2 vs. our 73.8. So its not just poor shooting!
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
But does that include offense?
What I’m saying is if we want to rank our defense, we shouldn’t use a stat that includes our offense in the formula. That’s the other end of the floor.
Again, it’s like using point differential….what you score minus what he scores. By that formula, Bowen would be a terrible defender because he’ll only score like 8ppg while his assignment will score 15-20.
No! [the NET efficiency includes offense minus defense] the latter stats are the offensive efficiency of all wolves opponents.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
so its a measure of purely our ability to stop opponents.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
or in this case our inability to stop them
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
The "in the paint" defensive efficiency is also ranked low but it is less painful.....
January out of paint efficiency – 73.8
January in the paint efficiency – 58.5
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
december number for defensive efficiency
December out of paint defensive efficiency – 67.7
December in the paint defensive efficiency – 52.2
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
I think we have just as many problems in the paint though
For example, we have the second worst defensive eFG% in the league, and give up the most assisted points withing 10 feet of the hoop.
Our defense from 10-23 feet by contrast is solidly average…39% overall, 50% assisted rate…both middle of the road by leaguewide comparison.
And then we get killed from three.
So I definitely think we have just as many problems in the paint as out of it.
What I see in the paint, is a big man stepping up to stop penetration coming down the key, and many baseline cutters coming in behind our big man and getting passes for layups or dunks...
In most cases its not jefferson or Love not making the rotation to stop someone, its the next level of rotation.
So I agree there’s lots of room for improvement. But what I kept hearing was our defense was awful because we don’t have a big man guarding the hoop and most of the defensive problem is on the perimeter. We were outscored by 37 points outside of the paint tonight, we outscored the bucks in the paint.
Its a matter of priorities.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
But that's going back to point differential
Again, a better gauge would be how much do we give up in the paint versus how much do other teams give up in the paint.
Also, we shouldn’t discount the effect a dominant defensive big man has on a team’s defense as a whole. The Magic and Celtics are examples of a bunch of average and suspect perimeter defenders forming a good defensive team because they’re anchored by the right big man.
I disagree! You need to know both, but what matters is point differential in the long run
I litterally don’t care if I win 90 to 80 or 120 to 110. Those great celtics and lakers teams gave up lots of points. They just scored more.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:55 PM CST up reply actions
A guy like Larry Bird wasn't a great defender. But he more than made up for any defensive short comings by outscoring his oppentent.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:56 PM CST up reply actions
in my opinion...
you both tend to overthink the game with stats…
sure, they are a good measurement, when u havent got a feeling for the game or try to make a good reason for certain actions without knowing the gameplan… but i really dont give much about them since there are so many things that are taken into account… you can always backup your position with sth…
I actually try not to use stats most times
I’m just pointing out some flaws in how they’re used by others
you don't have to [and shouldn't] look at point differential just for indidividual players but for groups of players.
If adding Bowen to the rotation allows a team to have a bigger point differential that could be better than having an average scoring and average defending player.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:03 AM CST up reply actions
u can post stats as much as u want, i'm not really a stats-guy...
but when u watch the wolves carefully, its not that they give up alot of 1on1 actions… its more of a collapsing and wide-open shooting sequence… and that has to do with defensive assignments – or orders… stats wont tell about that anywhere anytime anyway…
jonny for example
almost everytime takes a screen by going below, not up front… seriously… when u ever played ball… wont u get it at some point and show up above? its definitely an order… or jonny’s a hell of a defensive slack
we also do appear to double team when it isn't necessary. There was an observation in basketball prospectus that Rambis's defense with the Lakers last year had many more double teams than this years version of the defense.
One result of all of those double teams was man open 3 point shots on the weak side. We are seeing the same thing with the wolves.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
That's one case where...
….whoever’s defending the screen setter is supposed to pick up Jonny’s man of the screen and either contest the shot of force him back the other way.
One example of how our team defense as a whole breaks down
but i dont think its just on our wings...
my thought is, that kurts gameplans are based on helping out our short frontcourt, so guys are collapsing early and leaving the shooters wide open… its not that we dont care about them, we are just so damn quick to throw everything inside on defense…
Thats a poor game plan.... let Jefferson and Love play their guys one-on-one.... if that doesn't work then have alternative plan B availabe.... but doubling guys who DON'T NEED DOUBLING, and leaving open great perimete shooters is stupid.....
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
so what if?
did u see anything different? or how do you explain our poor perimeter defense? corey, wayne and even sasha did have their good moments and i wont put it all on flynn… its gotta be some kind of plan that doesnt mesh well with our guys or the other teams threats…
but i still would go that far...
to put it all on rambis, because of the fact that he DID learn pretty much from p.jackson and he just wants to put his guys into trouble early, so they can adjust to that before developing bad habbits (as we used to see in the foye-era)
He did also devise this scheme of defense...
…and won the Lakers a championship with it, and beat two teams with deadly perimeter scoring along the way.
I think we have a combination of a roster not suited to defend and just a sheer inexperience factor working against us.
Where Rambis should really be questioned is his rotations.
you are right but...
i didnt say that its a bad thing to let em experience some rough times out there on the perimeter, but i’m also curious how it turns out, since the lakers had extremely talented and BIG wings… defense on the perimeter gets alot easier when u can cover more space…
And when you have deterents in the paints...
….to guard the rim.
Pretty much every great defense except Jordan’s Bulls were built around a big man who could anchor the team on that end of the floor, which is something we obviously don’t have.
I think we discussed before ... what mattes is point differential NOT stopping someone from scoring.
The great celtics and lakers teams gave up lots of points, but they scored more than their opponents.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 23, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree
Again, the cases of Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier.
If we go by point differential, Charlotte is the 13th best defensive team, even though they rank #1 by pretty much all other statistics.
It’s like ranking the Vikings’ defense based on how many touchdowns Brett Favre throws. It makes no sense.
I'm NOT saying you rank defense by point differential. I'm saying when you evaluate talent - players you want to keep - you look at point differential.
To evaluate defense you obviously have to focus on defense. But I don’t then decide I want opponents to average no more than 95 ppg.
I decide what type of point differential I can generate with my personnel.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
look at someone like Phoenix who should have won a championship a few years ago.
They outscore opponents. Is that any better of worse than the pistons of the mid-2000’s who held opponents to few points?
The suns gave up lots of points, but they scored even more. They had guys like Amare and Nash, who were not great defenders, so they built a team who could outscore opponents.
The pistons went the other way. they had great defenders, wallace, rashid etc. they build around their ability to stop opponents from scoring, They didn’t need guys who were big scorers. They needed great defenders who could score “some”.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:08 AM CST up reply actions
u really cant compare that...
the pace in the playoffs is WAY slower than in regular games… and its a pretty common shared opinion that run n gun teams wont get far in the POs
I disagree. Look at the great most celtics and lakers champions [with the exception of most recent Celtics win]
The NBA rules changes that allowed “mugging” in the late 80’s to 2000’s have been reversed. scoring is increasing. Smaller, quick players – the PG revolution – is the future. the days of “slow it down” play half court will recede as new players come into the league.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think the Suns are a good example...
….yes, they had that one year where Nash got decked into the stands by Horry, but in the end, they had three shots at the Spurs and lost all three times. The superior defensive team won.
I see the argument for point differential and it works depending on the team you build, but in the end you still have to have a good defense.
For example, this year...
…9 of the top 10 team in point differential are also in the top 10 in terms of opponent’s ppg.
but as I said its not always the case. take the 2000-1 lakers 2nd in offense and 21st in defense - won a championship.
ratings by basketball-reference
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
their best season was the year of "suspensions". without those suspensions they win that year.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
i'll just throw in the nuggets...
and their success came along, when they started to grind it out on defense… they played run n gun before with iverson… and it didnt get them far…
Oddly enough...
….the Nuggets are the one team this year that’s top 10 in pt diff but not top 10 in def ppg.
In terms of def ppg, they rank 20th, giving up 102 per contest.
yeah...
they are a weird team this year, but that does not affect last years success…
It was the same case last year actually
They ranked 8th in point diff but 18th in def ppg last season
that again doesnt say much about the playoffs...
the nuggets always had problems against seemably weeker opponents and they only lived up to expectations when they got challenged…
thats happening alot, not just the nuggets or basketball… you dont even have to cover that with stats, its just a psycological thing
Maybe...
The series was tied 2-2 at that point. So it’s not like the Suns had the series otherwise closed out by any means.
thought the suns were up at that point?
or were they up big in that game?
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:27 AM CST up reply actions
i have to admit, that the suns had a decent chance...
but that was only the spurs and it was a hard series… when u live and die by your outside-shooting and fastbreak-opportunities, you wont survive the whole playoffs…
most of the celtics and lakers champions were fast breaking teams. with the quicker personnel we are seeing now, that style of play will come back
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:33 AM CST up reply actions
The rule changes have opened up the floor more...
…so I do think there’s something to exploit there in terms of point differential, that’s true
Only up by 3 when Nash hit the deck
And they won that game to make it 2-2, so technically when that play happened, they were down 2-1 in the series.
Certainly the suspensions hurt them, but they still had a 16 point lead in game 5 at one point and were at full strength for game 6.
It’s too bad too, because I really liked that Suns team.
yeh... I thought that team paid the price for bad behavior by the pacers and pistons.... and Spurs were the instigators.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
I'D LIKE TO THROW ANOTHER ONE OUT....
i really like how u guys handled tonites defeat… the last couple of games i really got tired of all those WTF, OMG and random rant moments…
you do have to play some defense. But I believe if a team plays say, top 10 defense, and top 2 or 3 offense they can win. Thats essentially what the lakers did last year and what many celtics and lakers teams did.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:37 AM CST reply actions
That I agree with
Maybe we just misunderstand each other. What I’m saying is we shouldn’t build out team like the Suns where we rank near the top in offense but near the bottom in defense, then justify it just with point differential.
I think that type of team could win, but it is more difficult... another example of a team that was ripped off was sacramento in that lakers series that donaghy was wrigged. I thought it was wrigged at the time, the fouls were so one sided.
thats another team that played great offense and little defense.
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jan 24, 2010 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Well, they weren't ALL that bad...
….11th in def ppg. Not stellar, but not like the Suns who were 22nd in 07.
That series was really really questionable though. I was thinking rigged too
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