The Darko Dimension
We all got Darko wrong. Myself included. He's a #2 overall pick. He's a bust. He's only 25 years old. He's proven nothing. He's 7' tall with a 7'5" wingspan. He's soft and easily intimidated. There's been so much said about the man that it's hard to say anyone really even knows what he is. To some, he's the punchline for jokes so popular they don't even need to be listed. To others, he's a player with a world of potential still to be tapped who's NBA history to date can be described most accurately as a string of very unfortunate situations.
From New York to Minnesota isn't going to strike any but the most critical as forward career momentum, yet 9 months and $20 million later, here we are. With a young man on the roster who has found new life, on a team looking for new life itself.
When Darko first arrived in Minnesota back in February, we all asked the obvious question: why? And we came up with quite a lengthy list....everything from it being a no risk situation to it being absolutely critical that we get a real center. A list that was reinforced by Darko's rather encouraging Wolves debut against the Thunder. And yet, while that list is valid and true, it turns out we answered the question wrong.
Darko's importance to this team is magnitudes beyond what any of us first realized. He is the key to the Timberwolves this season. And you're about to find out why.
Let's talk triangles. Or should I say, Triangles. A painfully uncomplicated geometric shape, but a bafflingly ambiguous basketball system.
For being the most famous offensive scheme in basketball....and arguably, in sports as a whole even....few fans, even hardcore ones, know what the Triangle actually is. The general depth of knowledge on the subject reminds me of an old commercial where Tex Winter walks into a college gym, draws a triangle on the whiteboard, and turns to the team.
"What is this?"
"A triangle."
And then he walks out.
So...a brief overview for you.
Contrary to popular belief, the Triangle was not invented by legendary coach and strategist, Tex Winter. He brought it to the NBA, but the inception for the scheme actually came from the college ranks: USC's then-head coach Sam Barry. The Triangle goes back so far it very nearly pre-dates Winter.....Tex (who's 88 years old, for reference) learned of the system because he first played in it under Barry.
The reason Winter brought the system to the NBA, in 1989 as an assistant to the Bulls' new head coach Phil Jackson, was actually more an act of desperation than genius. The NBA was a much more physical game in that era, and Michael Jordan had just suffered through the worst of it. A brutal 6 game playoff series against the Detroit Pistons, who used a defensive strategy that famously became known as "The Jordan Rules"....a strategy that left Jordan literally in tears by the end of game 6.
In order to take defensive pressure off of Jordan, and to facilitate more involved play from the rest of the team, Jackson and Winter installed the Triangle in the 89-90 season. It would space the floor better, and force Jordan to move the ball more....something he was infamously reluctant to do at that point in his career. That season, the Bulls pushed the Pistons to a more evenly-fought 7 games. The season after, they swept Detroit and won the championship....the first of 6 Jordan would ultimately win.
The Triangle, at its core, is actually very simple: it's just a different way to space the floor. Instead of a traditional 1-2-2 or 3-2 set.....where the point guard is at the top of the arc, the wings to his right and left, and the big men towards the baseline from them....the Triangle sets up the point guard in one of the corners, with a wing player to his left or right along the arc, and the center in the post. Those three literally form the shape of a triangle on the court....thus where the system gets its name from.
A couple of examples of this are as follows:
If you pause the video at 0:06, you can see the Bulls are in the exact spacing on the floor as shown in the diagram above. Scottie Pippen in the corner, with Jordan to his left along the arc, and Longley in the mid-post about halfway between the free throw line and the baseline.
Likewise....
Again, if you pause it at 0:06, you can see the proper spacing. Kobe in the corner, with Odom to his right, and Gasol in the mid-post.
This is the foundation of the Triangle. There's a million-and-two plays that can be run from it, but it always starts with this configuration.
Now one thing you probably noticed is that the corner man is not always the point guard. In fact, in neither case is that true. In one instance, the corner man is Scottie Pippen, who was the Bulls' point guard in practice, but their small forward in name; in the other, it's Kobe. The truth is, it doesn't particularly matter which perimeter player is standing in which spot. In watching the Lakers play, it seems to be whoever is closest.
But there's also one constant: in the default setup, the center is always.....always.....the player that starts in the mid-post.
And that's why we have Darko.
I unfortunately can't embed this into the article, but to understand why things are the way things are, you're going to need to play this through:
http://www.coachawinningteam.com/basketball_play_triangle/
If you press "play" and go through the whole thing, you're bound to notice one overriding fact: the center touches the ball on every single play. That's the way the Triangle operates...it spaces the floor a specific way to create specific passing lanes. And the best of those passing lanes start from the center position. Back out to the wings, left or right to slashers, or over the shoulder to a backdoor cutter. Shaq used to make a killing with that over the shoulder pass.
As many of you have probably heard it referred to, the Triangle is an "inverted offense". It doesn't start with the point guard and plays in. It starts with the center and plays out. The center is the one who gets the ball and decides where it will go, and that decision ultimately dictates what play is run and what the entire team does that possession.
Now this isn't new to me. I've known the basic fundamentals of the Triangle offense for a long time, and I've known that....despite what percentage Kurt Rambis likes to put on it....the Wolves run the Triangle on an overwhelming number of their possessions. Its obvious just by watching the floor spacing. If you know what the Triangle looks like, it's easy to spot.
But it wasn't until this week that this all fell into place.
I was at the October 19th preseason game against the Pacers, and as the second quarter came to a close and the third quarter wore on, it became obvious that something was very wrong with the offense. There was no movement, no fluidity, no coordination. Telfair took the ball and dribbled in circles for 20 seconds while four other Timberwolves stood around and watched him. It was like 2009 all over again.
Then it hit me.
Darko wasn't playing.
The team spent all of training camp learning the Triangle offense, but they couldn't use it because Darko wasn't playing. The spacing was right, but once the ball reached the post...? Koufos is no Vlade Divac, and Pekovic....bless his heart....only has court vision in one direction: whatever direction the hoop is in. And then I thought about Al Jefferson's distributing abilities....
And suddenly, everything made sense.
This is why we have Darko.
This is why we traded for him. This is why we started him, even though he was out of shape and didn't produce nearly as much as Love. This is why we replaced Al Jefferson with him, why we didn't draft DeMarcus Cousins at his position, and why we guaranteed him a starting spot. Why he will always start, even when Pekovic's box scores look superior. This is why we paid him $20 million over 4 years...and why it specifically had to be him, not just as 7 foot center who could rebound and defend.
Because it wasn't about rebounding and defending.
We were wrong. We got it wrong. The team wasn't looking for a no-risk experiment. It wasn't looking for a defender. When Kahn called Darko "Mana from Heaven", he didn't mean Darko was taller than Jefferson, or faster than Jefferson, or a more natural center than Jefferson. Our list of "why" reasons went in the wrong direction: we were thinking of size, not skill. Of defense, not offense. Of roster, not system.
The Wolves weren't looking for a center who could traditionally rebound, block shots, and defend the paint. They were looking for a center who could facilitate. Because that's what a center needs to do in the Triangle. Not a Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire, but a Luc Longley.
That's why the team targeted Darko for trade. Why Kurt Rambis spent the last two months of the season killing himself....and his team's record....to convince Darko he had a place here. And why the team bid so high on a guy who started off determined to leave the NBA, and ended up with only one real suitor: the Wolves.
The number of 7 footers who can rebound and block shots? Endless. The number of 7 footers who can make a picture perfect behind-the-back bounce pass from the free throw line to a baseline cutter? You can practically count them on one hand. Darko has a very rare talent combination for a center: court vision, passing ability, and the basketball IQ to utilize it without micromanagement. That he can rebound, block shots, jam up a pick-and-roll, and has a sweet little hook shot is just bonus material.
I'm not going to play stupid pretend any of this changes anyone's mind. Some of you are going to be very upset that the Wolves traded Al Jefferson and passed on DeMarcus Cousins because of this. That we chose against the "next Hakeem" because of our system. I get that, I understand that. But it's over and done with. There are plenty of other articles for you all to complain about that in. Darko is our man, for better or worse. Fortunately this preseason, we're seeing a lot of the "better" aspect.
Darko's put up modest averages of 6.6 points, 5.1 rebounds, and 2.4 assists, playing just 20 minutes a game (and, of course, missing the second Indiana contest entirely). Yet he is a net +36 overall, and he is third among centers in assists per game (second in assists/48, behind only Joakim Noah. His total EFF is a +11.29
His presence was especially felt tonight against the Bucks....when Darko entered the game at the start of the fourth quarter, we were trailing 80-88. He proceeded to pile up 2 points, 6 rebounds and 3 assists over the next 12 minutes as a pivitol reason the game went to overtime, then grabbed the final offensive board in OT to give Ridnour one last shot at a game winner.
His final line of 12 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks, and just a single turnover in 30 minutes is exactly the kind of play the Wolves knew Darko was capable of. But more importantly, it displays the breadth of Darko's impact on our team. He has a significant hand in every aspect of what we do....scoring, rebounding, defending, and....especially important....facilitating.
That's what I mean by the "Darko Dimension". Not some freakish Twilight Zone of Milicics, but rather that do-it-all presence that makes everything else work. I was wrong too....Luke Ridnour is not initiating our offense. Michael Beasley is not the most important Timberwolf this season. We'll flourish with him, but can do without him; we can't do without Darko. He's the one who gets the ball and decides where it will go. That's his job in the Triangle offense. It all starts with him. When Darko plays well, we can run perhaps the most famous and successful system professional sports has seen. When he plays poorly, or not at all, everything falls apart.
That is why Darko, more than any other player this year, holds the success of our team in his hands.
Also, for those of you with an extra half hour on your hands, I highly HIGHLY recommend watching this video:
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Very interesting
And a really good read!
by twinscrazy_german on Oct 23, 2010 5:27 AM CDT reply actions
You took the words right out of my mouth Oceanary
Exactly what has needed to be said about this subject. Thanks.
Another awesome write up
Long time reader but just registered to post. I wanted to let you know that I speak for many of us fans when I say your insights are much appreciated. Spot on regarding your points. It’s kinda scary to think so much is tied to Darko. Hopefully, it’s a long term marriage and not like a brief hook up with a borderline (exciting, sex is good at first but she’s crazy as hell). Well, keep up the great work!
I agree but I will
add its also Kevin love too. They use a lot of pinch post with Kevin love too. Hopefully they use it B-easy too. This is because out the three of them he has th best ability to score. BTW the most successful system in the sports is the west coast offense. 49ers when they were winning Packers Broncos and countless other teams run the west coast offense. I think half the league runs the west coast offense.
An excellent point
The triangle is the most legendary and mysterious, but certainly the WCO revolutionized the way football is played in the NFL.
Yeah, I just love those 3 yard passes
behind the line of scrimmage, that result in a negative one yard. The West Coast Offense. Ya gotta love it.
Haven't followed football in ages
but that’s what I used to call the Fran Tarketon offense. As an old Oakland Raiders fan I found it very offensive indeed. Anything less than ten yards on a pass should immediately call the receiver and quarterback’s manhoods into question.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
And 2 nba teams run the triangle
Seems that when other teams have run it is has been a bust. I hope this year Rambis has the pieces in place to make it work here.
That's because it can't be taught by someone who hasn't experienced it firsthand
The catch is that very few Jackson assistants have become head coaches with other teams. Rambis is actually the first real significant assistant to make a dedicated try at it. It’s a very linear tree
The positive side of this is that, even with the terrible roster we had last year, Kobe and Phil always commented that we executed the Triangle well. Rambis is having success teaching it, he just had to get the right players to see it all the way through. Hopefully that’s happened this year
The real kick here is that 11 of the last 20 NBA champions have been Triangle teams. So even with its limited usage, its wildly successful in the way that matters the most
The caveat to your last statement is that 11 of the last 20 NBA Champions also had either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
I just read a Rambis interview this morning
forget if it was on the Strib or not, but anyways someone points out to Rambis (viz a viz McHale’s comment that you need a closer to win games and we don’t have one yet) that yes, Jackson’s triangle teams have won 11 of the last 20 championships and yes, they incidentally had two of the best closers in NBA history. So is it the triangle or players? Rambis responds by pointing out with the possible exception of the mid 2000’s Detroit team, every single NBA championship team over the last 20 years has had at least one bona fide or fringe HOFer, and/or multiple All-Stars on it. This debate (system? players? closer?) seems like a great exercise in inductive vs. deductive reasoning, or as I like to think of it – let’s just let them play the game already!
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 24, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
if you're right
we could have a real red kryptonite year, catching lots of teams with their pants down. I really think this team has it within themselves to be truly awesome, and that could gel sooner than the plan calls for.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
So all we need is that monster stud wing to take it to the next level...
Anyone want to write Stern a letter about how we’re making an honest go of it and deserve to move up from the #7 to #1 pick next year like Chicago? Barnes sounds like that guy..
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Be interesting to see how far the Wolves can take this without the monster stud wing
“And the winner of the 2011 Draft Lottery is….the New York Knicks”
What's that sound?
Is it Daryl Morey laughing?
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 24, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
The pick swap
that Houston has for this season is #1 protected. So it would be Donnie Walsh laughing because the Tracy McGrady trade would all of a sudden become only slightly lopsided towards the Rockets.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
Year of the Darko
I’ve been trying to tell friends this all summer, albeit not in such detail (and usually my friends go all glassy-eyed when I start talking the Wolves again). Last season got really interesting once Darko showed up, despite the losing. Understanding Darko is our triangle offense ball-moving big man explains the Kahn Webber interview (however, it does not explain how Kahn thought it might be appropriate for a GM to call a former player a ‘schmuck’). To paraphrase Kahn, every player needs to find the system and situation appropriate to them, like Webber did with Golden State! It also helps explain why Beasley was a no-brainer for us — because he won’t be the central figure of our offense, even if he scores the most. Our offense runs through the pivot so that’s the most crucial position.
While I’m a big fan of Darko’s (I foresee about a 12 8 4 line for him), who in their right mind makes a Darko mix?!
Did you see the Webber/Kahn video? "Schmuck" is easy on Webber.
I thought he was a total ass, unbecoming an NBA Sports analyst, even though
he was one of the scorers I liked watching when he was on the court. I thought
his interview with David Kahn was unnecessarily hostile and rude.
I think the jury is out on what an offensive force Michael is going to be. He has to
find himself fast.
It was fun to see Darko and Pekovic working together. I think Pek might see a lot
of PF, if he can stay eligible. Poor guy has a time adjusting to the NBA’s
Percy Milquetoast rules. He’s used to bodying-up and hand/forearm-checking. He
also needs to step out of the lane and step back in to avoid all those 3 counts.
We are going to need a bruiser in situations where we need to force the
ball inside, to work on opposing Centers to make them play too aggressive D
against us, and to draw fouls and 2+1s. I can see him canceling out guys like
Big Baby, Shelden Williams; big bodies. Being Eurostyle, I can envision him
in a lot of roll sets. If a defender comes late, he’ll just bounce off Pek.
So many of the variations haven’t even been implemented yet. These guys are still
doing walk-throughs on basics.
If Koufos is kept, I think he’s the most logical guy to become the wheel hub that
Darko is now. We need someone who can give Darko a blow, yet not so
drastic a change that we lose our offense when he’s sitting. I may be wrong
here, but who else do we have that can facilitate from the post? Kevin is the
obvious answer here, but we lose what he gives us where he’s become a natural.
Koufos, though raw, shows some sign of court vision. He’s done some rookie
flubs, but I think he’s a good recruit for a project. Somebody has to be a back-up.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Kevin Love
works really well in the facilitating post of the triangle offense. The problem with relying on him there is it takes him away from all that he can do away from the ball. When you have Darko filling the facilitating post, Kevin Love can be pretty much anywhere else on the court waiting for a pass to get an open shot. He’s got range out to the three point line and he instinctively crashes the offensive glass. If he’s in the facilitating post he’s going to be boxed out every time, and the other big man won’t be as good a shooter as Love (except for Tolliver). I think maximizing what our best player can do on the court is the biggest reason Darko’s acquisition is great for the Wolves. Love is probably a better fit for facilitating our offense than Darko, but it comes at the expense of all the other things that Love does well on that end of the court. When you get a guy that is only a slight step down from Love at facilitating, you free him up to do all the other things that he is so much better at than any of our other big men. Of course, Darko wouldn’t be nearly as important an acquisition if he didn’t also defend better at the Center position than just about any other center in Wolves history.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
That's a really good point.
Reading through the article, I also wondered why Kevin Love wasn’t the guy we relied on to facilitate the triangle. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me.
Agreed
Great point.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Agree. I may not have been clear; actually that's my point - -
Kevin can do the job as good or better than Darko, but we need him to be free
to do what he does best. I was thinking that Koufos, being a legit 7 footer, has
the length and some court vision, and a pretty good shot. Teach him to do
Darko’s job in the Triangle so that we don’t have Helter Skelter when Darko
is subbed.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Koufos may have earned a roster spot
The only downside is that it would mean more of Pek at the 4 if Koufos is our sub at the 5 and less Tolliver. I really like what I see from Tolliver so far. He kind of brings skills similar to Love.
I think there's a couple big issues that keep Love from being the key player in the Triangle
First, he doesn’t create well for himself with his back to the basket. The “bail out” option in the Triangle when no passing lanes can be found, or when a mismatch has been created, is for the center to look for his own shot. Darko has a much stronger ability to back his man into the paint and get off a shot around the defense
Second, Darko has a huge height and length advantage. Traditionally, Jackson has preferred his centers to be of the “tower” kind, because the height gives them the ability to see over the defense, and the length gives them the ability to pass around it without giving up position. For Love to make some of the passes he’d need to, he’d probably have to move his feet because his arms just can’t reach around the arms of whoever’s defending him in most cases.
And tied to that, third, is that so far Love has had a lot of problems establishing post position in a traditional set play scenario. I’m not sure if he doesn’t seal his man off correctly or if he just doesn’t have the size and length for it, but he gets a ton of post-entry passes deflected away from him. With Darko, it’s not a problem because he’s too tall for defenders to reach over his shoulders and his arms are too long for defenders to poke the ball away from him.
I hear ya
We pretend he’s 6’10, but realistically he’s about 6’9 without a monster wingspan and great quickness, so it’s hard for him to get the ball with advantageous post position, and even when he gets it, he lacks the height/length to create good angles (as you said).
Great article Oceanary. I enjoyed it quite a bit.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
To a great extent
I think this is why we want B-Easy at the 3, not the 4. He’s an undersized 4, but probably a stretch 4 playing that role. If he can make it work at the three, that really opens a knot at the 4 position.
You know
I have a hard time believing the heights on a lot of these guys. You look at them in pictures and stuff and some guys who you think are short look very tall, and other who you think are tall look very short. I met Jonny and Bassy the other night, and I swear Bassy was taller than Jonny (although now that I look up their heights on DX I find that I am mistaken in thinking Bassy was 5’-10" or something).
Here’s an illustration of what I’m talking about:

In this team photo from London (courtesy of the Wolves Facebook page), it looks as though Kosta, Darko, and Pek are all 7 footers in shoes (or taller – Laimbeer’s listed at 6’-11" and he misses the yellow line). However, the red line at 6’-7" for Wes shows a number of things. First, Lazar is either a lot bigger than we think or there’s some really weird optics going on. I’m inclined to think it’s a little of both, but generally speaking the camera’s far enough away (and appears to be an SLR instead of a point and shoot) so that there really isn’t too much warp in the photo – notice the conspicuous lack of warp in the architecture behind them compared to the straight lines I drew. Ya, I know it’s farther back so that’ll help, but overall I think this picture doesn’t suffer badly from typical point and shoot fish-eye distortion).
OK, back to Wes and Lazar and who’s 6’-7" or not. Lazar looks clearly bigger than Wes here, although he also appears to be standing a foot or two closer. Love looks no shorter than 6’9" in shoes, 6’-10" is probably fair game. Most interesting to me is that Beasley and Tolliver appear to be the exact same height, and Martell appears to as tall as both of them! (unless, of course, that’s not Martell, but I think it is). Of course, Corey (to the right of Martell) looks as tall as Love.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 24, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I should note
that all heights are from DX and are for the guys in shoes.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 24, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I suspect the difference in shoes
is greater than you think. Also, the guys who are closer will appear taller than they are, and they’re clearly standing in a semi-circle which would also distort the appearance of height.
Think about all those fishing pix you’ve seen in which the fish looks huge when held in front the fisherman at arm’s length. There’s at least one arm’s length between the front and back row players.
Exploring the subtle mysteries of Canis Hoopus comment thread html shortcuts one wtf at a time.
Ya
but these guys aren’t standing 4 feet from the camera. I can believe the shoes bit, as there seems to be between .75" and 1.5" + in DX’s no shoes/with shoes height measurements. I guess what I was trying to get at is that, at least for me, I am guilty of perceiving certain size limitations or advantages with some of these guys where there really isn’t any. The Beasley/Tolliver/Martell all in a row is the one that gets me the most.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
DX also lists w/o shoes from the combine which is probably the most accurate
Wes 6’ 6.25"
Lazar 6’ 4.5"
KLove 6’ 7.75"
Jonny 5’ 11.25"
Darko 6’ 11.5"
Beasley 6’ 7"
Webster 6’ 6"
Brewer 6’ 6.75"
Tolliver 6’ 7"
No combine numbers I could find for Bassy, Pek or Kosta.
I hope the Wolves put in half as much work on this
as you did. Wonderful write-up—that’s great hustle.
Oceanary
Always worth the time to read what you wrote.
Nice stuff, buddy.
Skol Vikes!
Nice Work
This is exceptional analysis! Thank you for taking the time to really walk the reader through your argument.
This does, however, make me question some of other personnel held by the team. How will Rubio be effective in the half court, given that Rubio is more in the mold of drive an kick point guard, currently absent of consistent outside shooting at this point in his career. Kerr, BJ, Fisher, Paxson, Shaw all killed the defense with open three’s on slow rotations.
Second, looking over the championship teams running the triangle we appear to be short one small forward/stretch four with strong ball handling skills (for the position). Pipen, Harper, LO, Kukoc, George are some examples. I’m assuming this the hope for Bjelica, because nobody on the current roster would seem to fit that skill set. But why do we not have someone currently? Would this be the goal of a current year trade?
Rubio wil become one of the cutters in the triangle
so he can receive the ball for an easy layup or (more likely) immediately make another pass to another cutter for the layup. That’s where his insane passing really comes in. Just watch a couple of highlights of him making passes through the paint to cutters no one sees. It’s beatiful.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 23, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
it’s also why I think the team is more concerned about him developing a three point shot than super awesome finishing ability.
As for you last point about not having a Pippen, Kukoc, etc on the team, I have two responses – yes, that might be part of what is targeted in a trade later this year (although Beasley has pretty good handles and could become one of those guys if he chose to), but the other response is just to acknowledge how far this team has come in terms of its personnel that we’re talking about needing (basically) two things – a go-to scorer that fits the system, and a ball handling stretch 3/4 combo hybrid dude (or in the case of Bjelly, a super long ball handling combo hybrid 3/4/1/2). Pretty impressive to me that we have enough raw parts to make the system work.
The question I have for Oceanary, as this is the type of research and understanding about this system that I’ve been waiting for, (bravo, man! You explained very well what I saw with my own eyes but couldn’t figure out on my own. I love it!), but how much of our transition game is ‘triangle’ based? Because I believe the FO and coaching staff (well, Rambis) when they talk about Showtime and running as well. And to this end I see Rubio as a tremendous luxury. From what I’ve seen this preseason there have been many, many opportunities where Rubio would have looked in his element running the offense – simple as hitting open cutters in transition (and let’s not forget that Rubio already is a perfect fit defensively for us). I think we all would appreciate some words/thoughts/opinions on this dynamic – Rubio, Showtime/transition offense, and the triangle.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 23, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
After reading this, and I'll admit I'm a bit of an outsider here as a Kings fan......
….., is that I see Darko being the facilitator for the halfcourt with Rubio leading the break. No offense suffers from having multiple facilitators. Usually, though, it’s the difficulty of finding the balance between facilitation and scoring that is the problem.
I think the scoring end will provide the Wolves with more issue’s than anything else. Be interesting to see how it plays out in either case.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Solid take
Next season, assuming there is one, could see exactly what you’re talking about. Rubio pushing the break for easy scores and when we have to reset for a half-court game, the Darko-directed Triangle.
Seriously, Oceanary, this was a remarkable post; eye-opening and thought-provoking. After reading it, I had to call up one of my boys, who has been off the Wolves since the KG trade and discuss it. You won my rec. Great job.
Yep, I emailed it to a friend
…a former college hoops player and HS coach. I thought he would really enjoy the analysis — and of course I put in a plug for the Wolves, too. Told him to take the over on the Vegas odds on wins this year.
Good Point
But wouldn’t that require someone else to bring the ball up court, say following a made basket? How does he get to a cut position in the triangle if he is the primary ball handler(with a reasonable amount of time remaining on the shot clock)? But you are right he would be fun to watch coming off cuts from the outside of the triangle. This would reiterate the need for an additional ball handler on the court, alla Pip or Harper, if only to initiate the offense after a made basket.
by Winston Wolf on Oct 23, 2010 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess if I assume that Webster is that guy at the 2
you would have him maybe at the top of the key, with love at the high post, darko at the low post, with Beasley and Rubio off the low post wings sides of the 5 spot from up above (darko). I suppose they could even invert Beasley and Webster in this scenario so Beasley has a lot of open space to back down his man if the situation arises. That puts a better ball handler at the top of the key.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 23, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I read somewhere
That the other 2 people in the triangle keep the spacing so that they can run a two man game in the event that the triangle breaks down. If we run a flexible triangle offense where whichever guard is closest sets up as guard #1 in the triangle (guy in the corner) then you have Ricky as either 1) spotting up for a 3 or acting as a cutter off the pivot man in the triangle OR 2) the trigger man in the pick and roll game with Love as the big, which is a situation tailor made to both of their skillsets.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
They don't run the triangle every possession.
Rubio’s drive and dish game as well as the way he sees passing lanes to cutters will be very useful on all the possessions where the offense doesn’t run the triangle. Rubio also seems to be a virtuoso on the fast break – the other emphasis of the offense.
I hope the coaching staff will consistently work with Johnson to improve his ball handling skills to a point where he can be that guy on this team. Webster could probably stand to get in on those workouts as well. And FWIW, Ellington appears to have spent all summer working on his handle and ability to create his own shot – so he might be able to work on the 2-man side of the triangle offense in due time.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
Rubio also seems to be a virtuoso on the fast break
Rubio+Love = Showtime
A big, enthusiastic YES to Bjelica
That guy will flourish in the Triangle. He has commanding height and reach for his position, and exceptional facilitating ability.
Odom doesn’t play the key role in the Triangle as much because he’s more of a face-up, off the dribble distributor, but Kukoc used to do it all the time, especially when the Bulls played the mismatch card and put him at the 2 or even the 1.
And this also explains why the team was so concerned about him upper body strength
Which I thought was kind of odd over the summer. He’s already got a huge height/length advantage, right?
Well, the answer is the team wasn’t thinking about him as a face-up, pick-and-roll player. They want him in the post, and for that, he’s got to have the strength to establish position and not get pushed over when he gets the ball.
I'm going to keep commenting on this until people listen
Kahn did not compare Darko to manna from heaven. He compared Minnesota to manna from heaven. He listed all the bad situations he was in, then said, ‘He came to Minnesota, and it was like manna from heaven.’ In this analogy, the manna from heaven was Minnesota not Darko.
by ldsprawl on Oct 23, 2010 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Methinks most of us don't care about what he was talking about
it’s just funny how he talks. I also think most of us are on Kahn’s side for the Kahn/Webber interview (the schmuck part was a little strange to say, but true).
Anyways, kind of the wrong place to keep commenting about something you are trying to change peoples’ minds on. And personally, I disagree that it was either Darko or Minnesota. I believe it was the combination of the two, which I don’t think you are disagreeing with. Just pointing out that if you are going to keep commenting you should probably throw that in there. Basically Darko needed Minnesota’s fresh start and Minnesota needed Darko’s abilities. Without one of those factors, we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Thank you
Now I don’t have to bring it up.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 23, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Minnesota is Manna? Doesn't make sense
Idsprawl, that doesn’t make sense. If Kahn said, “He came to Minnesota, and it was like manna from heaven.” then he clearly is not talking about Minnesota being Manna. If you parse out the semantics of the statement it is clear that he was referring to Darko as being the Manna.
The biblical sense of Manna from Heaven is receiving something good unexpectedly. And that is what the Wolves did. They received something good, Darko, in an unexpected manner. No one saw Darko coming here. He was not being talked about or on anyone’s radar. But all of a sudden he was traded here and he was the perfect fit for our system. It was an unexpected boon. It was Manna from Heaven.
Of course it makes sense.
Kahn was listing all of the bad situations that Darko had been in during his career (wandering through the desert), then when he came to Minnesota, it was like manna from heaven. Minnesota was the ‘something good unexpectedly’ for Darko.
Excellent write up Oceanary
I learned a great deal. Thanks.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Darko
Great article about the triangle.
Questions/thoughts:
1) Chicago’s triangle wasn’t successful because of Luc Longley’s prowess as a facilitator. It was successful because he wasn’t terrible, and oh by the way he played with MJ, Pippen, and other perfect fits in the triangle (Kerr,Paxson, Rodman, Kukoc ,etc).
2) The Lakers’ triangle works ok because of Pau Gasol, who’s a world class passer and scorer. You can’t have a much better player than Pau to man that post position in the triangle. However, despite how good of an operator Pau is, I would argue the Lakers don’t run it nearly as well as the Bulls did. The Lakers just make up for it with their collective size (seriously – how often do they cut to Phil Jackson on the bench with one of those WTF? looks on his face after Shannon Brown or Ron Artest does something stupid).
3) Darko Darko Darko. I’m torn by the article above. One the one hand, it’s pretty clear he’s the best passing center on the roster, and probably the best passing center the Twolves have had for some time. However, that isn’t saying much given who’s been playing here the last decade. I think it’s WAY to early to call him the key to our offense. You only need someone who isn’t terrible at center to make the triangle work…>IF you have other good players surrounding him. The overall change in our quality of play this preseason is much more likely due to having guys like Beasley, Webster, Wes, Ridnour, and KLove getting minutes instead of guys like Pavlovic, Wilkens, Hollins, Jawai (are you effing kidding me???), and Pecherov. So yes, I agree, Darko is clearly better than no Darko, but let’s keep it in perspective.
I don't know if that's the argument.
Thebarticle doesn’t claim Darko will take us to the finals, just that he can get us out of the basement. I also think Darko is clearly the best center we’ve ever had, and is likely in the top 20% of centers in the league (at that particular skill)
by midlife crisis on Oct 23, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
My argument is that
the upgrade in overall talent (including Darko) is getting us out of the basement, not Darko alone.
I don't think
that’s what Oceanary is saying. If anything, it’s arguing that the coaching staff and FO understands exactly what they need in terms of personnel to run the system. I do take a bit of comfort from that. More to the point – I think the analysis is trying to make the point that while transcendent players like MJ or Kobe in the triangle can take you to remarkable places, (and also be the pieces that we keep foremost in mind when we look at the triangle), a center who can facilitate or enable ball movement is a crucially important contributing factor in the whole process as well. As we saw last year, (and as Jim Cleamons found out in Dallas with Shawn Bradley at center), without players who can move the ball, especially one who touches it as frequently as the center does, the whole system looks incredibly horrible.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 23, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
and while I usually have no clue what's happening on the court
it’s pretty obvious that when we play the way Rambis wants, we 1) score, 2) frustrate the other team, 3) win.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
Glad
I’m not the only one who sees that.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 23, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
It’s not about the team doing spectacular with Darko. It’s about the team being horrible without him.
Darko doesn’t have to be all-NBA for this to work. Luc Longley was very much a role player. But Longley was also a very integral part of the Bulls because of his passing ability. If the ball goes into the post in the Triangle and doesn’t come back out, the entire system breaks down because the spacing becomes meaningless and all the cuts and reads that are supposed to happen become useless
Maybe I'll sound crazy when I say this
but given the system Rambis envisions (Showtime Triangle), Darko is a vastly superior offensive player than Al Jefferson. Furthermore, the acquisition of Darko takes Love out of the facilitator role in this offense and allows him to be an above average stretch-4 as well as providing what Dennis Rodman provided to those Bulls championship teams.
I agree that the overall upgrade in talent is getting us out of the basement. But Darko, who we all know is a monumental upgrade on defense over what we had last year, also upgrades the offense at multiple positions by himself.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
I hope
this proves true over the course of the season. It was nice to see Darko and Pek together as well last night. That could be a very interesting large lineup for other teams to deal with. Conceivably Rambis could trot out a ‘power’ lineup of:
Wayne (or Luke), Wes (or Lazar), Beasley (or Tolliver), Pek, and Darko. Not effective in long periods of time, but could be very effective in 5 minutes at a time here or there.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 23, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Tolliver has a pretty strong ability to man the position as well
But his relative lack of height and length might keep him from playing the part for significant amounts of time. We’ll have to see
Given how high Rambis is on Tolliver
I think this is the exact role he’s looking for The Decision to play in the offense.
Not crazy at all
and Love can provide more scoring punch than Rodman by a long shot.
Don't wish to argue here....q
…..but Love didn’t play with Jordan. Offensively, Rodman gave the Bulls (especially them) so many extra opportunities it almost didn’t matter how much he individually scored. Rodman’s ability to not need the ball was as important to those Bulls as it was to have a meglomaniacal alpha dog like Jordan.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Don't want to downplay Rodman at all
He was an amazing rebounder and defender and Love isn’t even in the same league when it comes to defense. In Chicago he really was a specialist though.
Love has the ability to help spread the floor with his outside shooting and this is really a boon for any team that wants to run the triangle. So I am still going to take Love on the offensive end.
I understand your point.
I just don’t think it’s really comparable is all.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Rodman was great, and a huge key to those teams.
But it’s not like the characteristic that made him great was that he couldn’t shoot from outside of four feet. He was able to make a big positive impact even though he couldn’t shoot, but that’s pretty rare, and it wasn’t his lack of scoring ability that made him great. The Bulls also won three championships with Horace Grant playing the Rodman role, and Grant could score. His shooting occasionally didn’t doom the team or anything.
by princelyfrank on Oct 23, 2010 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Rodman's biggest asset was he could make up for the rebounding...
….that Longley and Wennington couldn’t give the Bulls. Neither of those centers averaged more than 6rpg with Chicago
Which, when you really think about it, bodes very well for this Darko/Love duo. The skillset combination has already been proven to work
His on-ball and post-defense
were pretty damn remarkable too. When it comes to low post defenders, guys who could bother both shots and players, Rodman was king.
Again......not arguing the Rodman, and, in your case, the Horace Grant side.
All very true.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
My point princely....
…and this is all my point is: What’s comparable about these Minny teams and those Bulls editions?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
But Love is nowhere near the defender that Rodman was.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
wonderful analysis
It sort of makes me hopeful, even if darko is no webber…he will be for us. We really needed someone to give us an offense. Even with Rubio it seemed like his skills wouldn’t help as much those times he couldnt beat his man off the dribble
by midlife crisis on Oct 23, 2010 10:26 AM CDT reply actions
Excited for another Wolves season to tip-off
And Darko’s part of it. How badly do you think this guy wants to rebuild his rep? How badly does he want to shed the “draft bust” tag? He has to be extremely motivated this year, because this is his chance to do those things. Should be fun to watch.
"Boom-shakalaka!!!"
Great article.
So much better than the crap on espn. Actual insight. You can disagree with the Wolves choices and their plan, but if this article reflects the FO… they sure as hell do have a plan.
Ok, so the players are the best we could get for now due to our lowly status in the league, but if we have even some success over the next year or two and add a few better players it could really come together. When you consider our limited options for free agency, I do think most of our off-season moves have made some sense. You can always argue for a different system and different players, but I’m optimistic we are headed in the right direction.
Winners can get free agents
Once the team starts getting better in the W column, then we can attract better free agents. Hopefully this group can get that positive turn going.
everything is illuminated
If Kahn and Rambis could hire Oceanary to start providing answers at press conferences, the Wolves plan might make sense to fans. When Kahn speaks, fog rolls out. “Manna from heaven.” Yeah, that really helped explain the plan, and Darko’s place in the plan. Sounded like a recipe for 40 years of wandering in the desert.
Great essay!
great writing inspires great comments
Only at CH would someone with the handle “brick layer” reference a Liev Schreiber movie about the Ukraine (a truly brilliant movie, btw).
In your honor sir:
From a former tractor tire builder to a brick layer, in honor of Oceanary and Darko.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
Hmm, that video did not embed
The video:
-Only one legit post up around the 5:30 mark.
-At the :40 mark, everyone better have noticed this line: “With a presence sent straight from heaven.” Funny.
-I also found my new favorite Darko move that I wish he would do more (my prior favorite being his hookshot when he is close to the basket. Lots of work to do on it, but that could be lethal): around the 2:33 mark, there are two plays in a row here. The first he does a quick pivot to get position on who I believe is Bynum, and then just lays it up against the glass softly. The second one I liked better, against Dwight Howard I think, he does a really quick pivot and uses his length to get the ball out of blocking area and again off the board.
If you didn’t see these three parts I’d recommend a rewatch. I’d really like to see him post up more.
Anyways, about the article:
Good writing as always. I disagree with your conclusions about the Mana from Heaven line. I don’t think Al Jefferson is the correct comparison. Over Ryan Hollins, he was certainly a vast upgrade. That’s who I would compare him to in this regard.
Also, people seem to be saying that Darko played Bogut to a standstill last night. I would definitely argue against that. Bogut was +7 while he was in the game and he put up an extremely efficient line. While Darko certainly played him even on the points front, I believe Bogut had 4 blocks and I can only imagine he was a presence felt in the lane the whole time he was playing (Which wasn’t long).
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
That's true
I guess what I took from last night is that Darko was perhaps part of the reason why Bogut didn’t look like Hibbert out there. Ya, I get that Bogut’s coming back from injury and perhaps wasn’t looking for his shot too much, but he certainly could have had his way against Koufos or Tolliver, for example. I still think Bogut represents the goal for what Darko should aspire to defensively, as you’re right that Bogut greatly impacted the game there.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 23, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
if Darko turns into Bogut, I will be absolutely thrilled. He had a couple slow years, but he is really making the case over the last two years for being a top 5 pick (I don’t know how he will ever prove his top pick status).
Darko did really well as well, it’s funny actually that both players were +11 with 29 and 25 minutes. So it seems as if they both did better when each other was out of the game (I’d still like to see popcorn machine for this, but I believe in their starting stints, Bogut was +7 against Darko. So the second stint, Darko/Wolves must have kept him down or maybe Pekovic was in for part of it (He was -10).
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
the nice thing about a young team
is that it seems like there’s always a player experiencing a break through and taking it to the next level. That’s a heady inspiration to other young players. There’s a potential for synergy here that’s awesome.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
Who was +0
Can’t wait for popcorn machine to start up again.
And I was actually wrong: Bogut was +11 in 25 minutes while Maggette was +0 in 14 minutes. So assuming Bogut played the entire time with Maggette (he didn’t), Bogut was +11 in 11 minutes without Maggette.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
That's the point though
That’s what I mean when I say we all got it wrong.
Is Darko an upgrade from Jefferson in terms of production? No. But that’s not what the team was concerned about.
Kahn called Darko Manna from Heaven because he can facilitate the Triangle, whereas Jefferson could not.
Third
Both you and Stop N Pop should be making money for this.
by Jose Cordoba on Oct 23, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Overall, I get what you're going for
But at this point in his career, Darko’s not a good enough passer to withstand rigorous defensive attention. Mainly, if teams single him, he’ll do well. But Sebastian Pruiti’s analysis over at NBA Playbook brought up some interesting things that the tape has borne, most important being that he can be turnover-prone if teams double him, particularly if the double comes from the baseline. I saw this a couple of times in the Denver preseason game. He’s a B- passing big at this point, which is better than many bigs who are probably in the low C or high D range, but there’s a long way to go for him to be considered elite. Honestly, his ability to defend and protect the paint will be more important to this team than his passing.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 23, 2010 1:13 PM CDT reply actions
He'll do better
if he’s graded on a curve. He doesn’t have to compare himself to guards or even power forwards, just centers, and that is a very soft curve (Jefferson being called a center doesn’t make it any tougher)
by midlife crisis on Oct 23, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
True
But ultimately, I don’t care about grades as much as I care that the guy is going to be able to find teammates when the defense sends a double team. “Is he effective?” is a much more important question than “How does he compare to other guys?”
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 24, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Really nice article Oceanary
However, I am reasonably convinced that Darko may not fill up the stat sheet every night, but will still be an important cog for the Wolves. Unfortunately, most people look only to the stat sheet and will continue to call him a bust and will continue with the Kahnnnn thing. Just an irrational fear at this time.
As long as Wolves fans get it....
…..it really doesn’t matter what other fans think.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think the caual fan doesn't get it
But on this board it seems most of are drinking the kool aid.
How is the level of optimism in Kings land? Seems that most of the “experts” have them pegged for the cellar like the Wolves.
Yeah. Kings fans feel justified in their optimism...
…where I think most outsiders view that as somewhat logical, there is going to be growing pains because of the youth. I think the Wolves are a 20-30 win team (which is a starting point for them) myself because of the heavy depth the Wolves now have. (And the Wolves are not that young either.) I think Hoopus has the right to believe their is improvement as long as the team is healthy. I don’t know if I would expect 30 wins or more. That is way too optimistic at this point IMO.
I don’t understand how anyone thinks the Warriors are worth anything, but Stephen Curry and David Lee have positive reputations in the media and that drives, naturally, media view of the Dubs.
The truth is I don’t care what experts think about the Kings because they aren’t actually experts on the Kings.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Have to agree on the range of 20-30 wins for the Wolves (25 is realistic)
and I have the Kings pegged in the mid-30’s to 40.DMC is certainly the wild card for the season out there. If he explodes, it will be a big year for the Kings.
25 wins is the goal I think the team should shoot for
30 would be fantastic, but maybe unrealistically high. The West is so freaking competitive right now, and the Northwest Division in particular is absolutely stacked
Agreed
I believe Kahn and Rambis can defend 25 wins, I really do. Anything below that gets a little dicey, but 25 wins is the best record we’ve had in 5 years while doing it with a young team, cap space, and an elite prospect still overseas.
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 23, 2010 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
30 would be great
This lineup is completely retooled from last year and 10 players are learning a new system for half court play. It takes time for these things to gel.
I'm thinking 30 Wins
Part of this is bias since it’s what BBP says. Anything over 27 is solid.
The big reason is there will be generally positive contributors on the floor from a WARP stand point as opposed to the normal dead weight. Our sheer depth will win games as teams deal with Injuries.
The second issue is shooting should be greatly improved along with moderate improvements in defense.
by Jose Cordoba on Oct 24, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
They were optimistic last year, too
I’d like to take their opinion with more than a grain of salt, but it’s not clear that they do a better job than anyone else at projections.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 24, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Kahn already knows who he is
That was one of the most enlightening posts on Minnesota sports I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks! If you are right, and either Rubio or Flynn make their mark, and one of our new twos and/or threes define themselves this season, it seems that we’re only on FA or high first rounder away from being an annual playoff contender.
Who might that person be?
A couple great moments in the video
I really really like when Darko hits a tough shot against the Pistons at around 4:45 and then looks and points at the Piston’s bench while smiling. I really really want a confident Darko this season. Not cocky, but just confident and assertive.
The other moment is the completely completely sick block at 5:14 or so. That block is just nasty. He just whips his long ass arm out and knocks the ball askew well before it is even released. Totally great.
The NBA took that away from him
and I think Lambeer can give it back to him.
Let’s face it: almost every guy in the NBA is an athletic freak. At that level the distinguishing factor is the ability to sync yourself to the game and instinctively exploit opportunities. Think about it and the opportunity is gone. These guys play in the right now, not some laggardly moment by moment thing. How much of a quick first step is speed, and how much of it is timing?
Darko, like most people who’ve been screwed over, thinks too much. Seeing him laugh after falling on his ass was great to see. He’s loosening up and getting back into the flow. The upside on this could be enormous, but at the very least helpful.
Living virtually so long I've forgotten where I parked the car.
Agree with Wolver
4:45 into that video was Darko Reborn. Great Video and an outstanding article. Thanks!
Is just disinformation…
by Son of Gerald Green on Oct 23, 2010 8:07 PM CDT reply actions
Really, really enjoy these Oceanary!
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Terrific
Both for the best Triangle description I’ve read and for explaining the FO fascination with Darko. Thanks, Oceanary.
A question—who are some other centers who can do the same thing?
Right now, there are only a few centers I'd run the Triangle with
There are plenty of centers who can make some nice paces every now and then, but if we’re talking full time, nearly-every-possession type of system play, my list is:
Andrew Bogut
Roy Hibbert
Chris Kaman
plus Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol, if you want to count them as centers. I think there’s potential in centers like Greg Monroe, Marc Gasol and Brook Lopez, but I’m not convinced they’d be able to handle it right now
And then there’s obviously like, Shaq, Brad Miller and Yao, who did/might have been able to in previous years, but are too old and injured to really do it now. The center has to have enough lateral quickness to move without the ball when other players start cutting, and those three just don’t have the legs for it anymore
Top Article
Man you are A-grade, you’re the new Britt Robson!
Another Kings fan here and while not much of a Timberwolves fan I love this site
Excellent post, really topnotch. A first rate example of why the quality blogs are so much better than the major media is, even espn. Whether it works or not, now I know why Kahn was so high on signing Darko.
As far as Kahn goes I have the feeling that he’s one of those sandpaper people who unknowingly insult you just by saying good morning. I don’t have a dog in the hunt, I loved what Webber brought to the Kings as a player but was never a player I had warm feelings for a la Scot pollard or Bobby Jackson. To an outsider Kahn came across as just plain insufferable in the summer league interview. He just did.
Hope you guys have a better season than all the “experts” are predicting.
"I make love to pressure" - Stephen Jackson
Oooh
Bobby Jackson – still wish he never left here. Glad he found some love in Sacto. He’s a hard guy not to like.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 24, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I always scratched my head on that one too. Never understood why Minny let B-Jax leave.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Like Chauncey
the Wolves of that era couldn’t decide if what they were seeing with their PGs was a mirage or the real deal. First, the guy they thought would be the next Stockton to KG’s Malone left (Marbury). In return they got the oft injured but nearly ideal Flip Saunders PG Terrell Brandon. Bobby Jax was perfect as backup to both, however, his second year here McHale drafted the incredible William Avery as ‘PG of the future’. Yup, that William Avery.
Anyways, I don’t what the Wolves were thinking back then. They let Bobby go and I think regretted it. The very next year after Bobby left they picked up Chauncey – and let him leave (and regretted it). So of course the next PG they picked up off the street who looked good for them they rewarded with a huge contract (Troy ‘Nutty Boyz’ Hudson). Sometimes I really hate you, McHale. We paid Huddy and his career 10.5 WS around $25 million, while letting Bobby (career 31.4 WS) leave for $14 million in Sacto, and letting Chauncey leave (career 110.1 WS) for Detroit for $23 million or so (or less than we paid Troy Hudson).
Holy bejeebus, I’m now pissed at how mismanaged that team was during KG’s prime! Seriously – we had Chauncey and didn’t keep him. He played better than Brandon and should’ve been kept. We had Bobby Jax, the perfect backup PG to play with KG and co, and we let him walk. Troy Hudson had one good season with us and a great playoff performance and we treated him like the next Chauncey. And people say Kahn is stupid or doesn’t understand how to build a team. I have to believe that Kahn and Rambis would have been able to select the correct answer to this question: which player should NOT be given a $20+ million dollar contract (when compared to each other) – Chauncey, Bobby Jax, or Troy Hudson.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 25, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Glen Taylor deserved to be fired as an owner.
Maybe that’s why the owners like him.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I don't think any sane Wolves fan would argue David Kahn should ply his trade in the media soundwaves anymore. Dude is godawful and then some.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Very Informative Post!
Thanks Oceanary, for the very informative post.
I feel much more confident after reading it and watching the Phil Jackson link, that I will actually recognize when the Wolves are using it. I hadn’t made the connection to the weakside maneuvers and off-guard play until now.
It will be much more interesting to watch the game now that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! Some might say that that has always been my modus operandi, but I assure you that most often I have little enough knowledge to present any risk to those around me!
"The Human race has only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter"-Mark Twain
Great post
So what’s this mean for Rubio? Does he fit the triangle? Or is he another ill-fittig player picked before the system was in place?
I think this is a sickening question, really.
Not because it’s a bad question, but because I just think the answer is ‘No’. If what we end up running resembles the classic (for lack of a better word) Triangle in any meaningful and sustained sense, Rubio’s talents will be squeezed largely into the possessions where we push like crazy and he gets the outlet pass (how many of these can there really be) and the possessions where the shot clock dwindles and someone needs to create. I realize he’s doesn’t dribble the air out of the ball like Paul or Flynn or whatever, but I also think that the Triangle, in principle, is more structured and less point/push guard dependent than the offense I see when I close my eyes and see Rubio flourishing and at his absolute best. I think the reality is that Rubio HAS to become a guy who punishes teams for leaving him free to spot up after the ball leaves his hands, or it becomes obvious to everyone that we might be better off sticking a Wayne Ellington type at point guard, assuming a tightened handle and an ability to contain opposing ones, and packaging Rubio, Beasley, and change for a young, world-class talent at the two. After last season’s (mis)handling of Flynn and others, I find it very hard to believe that players will ever trump system in what we see on the court. If what we see this year can’t be mapped REALLY well onto Rubio’s strengths, I’ll be very, very nervous about him being in a position to live up to the hype generated over these two plus years.
Ouch!
But hitting the nail on the head always hurts if your thumb is in the way.
Something really is going to have to give here unless Rubio improves his outside shot a lot this year in Spain. It seems that the protoype 1 for the triangle is in the Steve Kerr/Derek Fisher range where they get the ball up the floor and then hang out at the 3 point line to knock down an open shot.
If only the coach/system had been in place, Curry would have made tons of sense last year.
To say this
neglects the weak side of the offense where the 2-man game gets played. Not to mention all of the cutting that happens on both the strong and weak sides. Rubio would be well served to work on his 3-point stroke, but I wouldn’t start entertaining thoughts of him being worthless without it. He’ll be fine, and his defense will look really good compared to anybody else we’ve got manning the point right now – with Bassy being a possible exception, but his offensive game appears to be less than Rubio’s.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
Ya
if you watch the Phil Jackson video, at around 6 minutes in they start talking a little bit about the 2 man game. For me, once I saw that, I suddenly saw how Rubio could flourish in the triangle. There have been two main concerns about Rubio transitioning to the NBA – first is his athleticism/finishing ability, and second is his shot. Hopefully his shot will get better over time. As for his athleticism and finishing ability, putting him in as one of the two guys running the two man game could be absolutely brilliant. Dude’s an insane ball handler, you’ve already got the defense ‘unset’ and in motion (which is when Ricky is at his best – essentially the defense is in transition), and you’ve got a guy who sees the court perhaps better than anyone else (and can make those passes). Be it the two man game or the three man cutting game away from the ball, you’re setting up the defense to always be in flux and getting Ricky halfway to the basket without him even doing anything. This could be amazing to watch Ricky dissect defenses in this offense, and could be part of the reason why Kobe thinks he could come over and play right now. Ya, Kobe mentioned how he’s mature and all that, but with our ties to the Lakers and the triangle, I’m sure it’s not lost on Kobe how a guy like Ricky might do in the triangle.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Oct 26, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Rambis has said how you can run other traditional stuff
such as pick-n-roll, out of the triangle. It is sort of a base framework.
Hopefully the triangle would allow Ricky to use his pick-n-roll and drive-n-dish skills by providing a well spaced floor.
It is worrisome, though, that this did not happy with Flynn last year. He would have been aided by the same type of action.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Oct 26, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
ball stopping
by Al and Jonny
stopped everybody from being aided
by that kind of action
Absolutely amazing take!
Standing Ovation is in order.
Best explanation of the Triangle to date with visuals to back it up.
Really looking forward to the season.
Any chance I could come and meet you so you can autograph
this article. :) Not kidding.
It is that good!
Buckle up folks!!!!
"You got alotta Flubber, but I love you brother!"
When Stanley Roberts dunked on Luc Longley and the Wolves defeated the Bulls for the first time. (1997-1998)























