The Kurt Rambis Decision Making Chart
by Jon Marthaler on Oct 28, 2010 1:00 PM CDT
Email
PrintKevin Love didn't see the floor for fourth-quarter crunch time in last night's loss to the Kings. Judging by your comments, most of you were as confused as I was as to why. Head coach Kurt Rambis says it was for defensive reasons, but this doesn't seem to be the first time - or only reason - that Love has been yanked from a game.
So after the jump, in helpful chart form, a look at what appears to be the coach's decision-making process.
87 comments
|
15 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Awesome
As a Kings fan watching the game yesterday (and also as a Kevin Love fantasy owner), I could not fathom how Love wasn’t in the game, especially when he was stroking it from range and putting up double-double in his 23 minutes. Weird.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
The Double-double is the tipping point.
I honestly think that sometimes, when Love gets up to that point, he gets a look in his eye that rubs Rambis the wrong way.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
stroking it from range.
2-3 from downtown.
Author of the Pick and Scroll. Follow me on Twitter here.
Love wasn't on the floor because
he didn’t play defense. Plain and simple. Tolliver outplayed Love last night. Tolliver was +6, Love was -2.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
by Flagrant on Oct 28, 2010 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Respectfully disagree.
No one was playing much defense. And down 3 with 3 seconds to go and the ball, defense wasn’t necessary.
Love got burned a few times, Rambis demands help side..
Tolliver outplayed Kevin at the def end of the floor. His man wasn’t scoring, our perimeter d was awful.
"I haven't gotten back from the future yet." - Be-Easy
He must have also wanted bad shots in the 4th.
Tolliver and Ellington delivered.
by Are we cursed? on Oct 29, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
still doesn't negate the fact that we had to run the offense through tolliver
late in the game and he failed miserably and took a few bad shots that cost us.
"Brian Cardinal left Purdue being the only Boilermaker to receive both the "Mr. Hustle" Award and the "Courage" Award four years in a row"
Tolliver was 1-2 in the 4th quarter and his one make was a 3-pointer
I don’t see how that’s “taking a few bad shots that cost us”
I remember late in the game that they ran the offense through him and he took a really bad shot
I guess I didn’t really have anything to back that up haha.. well whatever. The whole offense was not so great late too, not just tolliver i guess.
"Brian Cardinal left Purdue being the only Boilermaker to receive both the "Mr. Hustle" Award and the "Courage" Award four years in a row"
Agreed. Tolliver kept Tolliver on the floor last night.
To me, it’s an easy coaching decision especially since the Wolves were allowing
drives through the paint. Rambis wants a better defensive effort. Tolliver earned
his minutes in the 4th quarter. It wasn’t about Love. It was about Tolliver playing
great. Did the folks who wanted Love to play in that situation watch the game?
Did they want two Power Forwards in the game at the same time? I don’t think
that would work out very well. If you’re just looking at the box score, you can’t
really know what was going on the game.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Um, yes, many of us watched the game
Sorry to pick on you, but the “did you watch the game” blast is one of my pet peeves.
And I disagree. Love should have played. Tolliver wasn’t exactly doing such a great job on the defensive end, and Love is, you know, the better player.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Oct 28, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Have you met ChuckD?
He was wondering if you’d ever watched basketball before? Along with everyone else who disagrees with him.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Yes, I did watch the game.
And while I was watching, I was thinking that Love’s rebounding, passing and three-point shooting could really have helped.
Rambis has to set the tune of the season
When you (Love) or anyone else isn’t playing as well on either side of the court, you will be replaced by someone (Tolliver) who is.
There is no player who is beyond reproach nor should there be.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
by Flagrant on Oct 28, 2010 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Flagrant can do it on no data at all.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Oct 28, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Love had Fouls, Turnovers, No Defense, and a Lack of Playing in the Offense
Love is good, but let us not get carried away. He is no superstar, and if someone is outplaying him, Love should not have guaranteed minutes.
by TO12 on Oct 28, 2010 1:44 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I probably wouldn't have benched Love for the entire 4th but...
I like that there’s legit competition at most positions this year. Rambis has options and is not hesitating to use them. I hope he does the same with other players when necessary.
I think, in a single game situation of last night
Rambis is justified in benching Love. Tolliver was just playing better. As someone who was at the game, Love was definitely playing lazy in the first half, and wasn’t making any sort of impact.
Last year everyone harped on Rambis for not playing his best statistical player. Well last night, Tolliver was statistically better, and now everyone’s on Rambis for not playing his what? Best player “in theory?”
I think Rambis made a decision based on what he saw, which was that Tolliver was more energetic, playing better defense, and making a bigger impact, which is backed up by the metrics in this case.
by Oceanary on Oct 28, 2010 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Statistically better for one night does not equal best statistical player.
But the larger point, to me, is that — just like last year — he should have played the two together.
Couldn't
Cousins would have eaten them both alive, and Darko is needed to keep our offense flowing and defense solid
I think, when both the stats and eyes say that one guy did better than the other, then it’s justifiable to play the better guy. The comments from both the stat nerds and fans who watched the game so far have both been pretty overwhelmingly in unison that Love wasn’t getting it done last night. The complaints about his lack of minutes is more coming from of “he deserves minutes”, not “he earned minutes”.
I personally don’t at all agree that Love has proven himself any more than anyone else on the team. I don’t think he’s privilaged to a set number of minutes, rain or shine. Really what he proved so far is that he’s David Lee…just a big numbers guy on a really bad team so far.
by Oceanary on Oct 28, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
But Rambis didn't have to stop giving Love a chance to earn more minutes.
There wouldn’t have been any harm in trotting him out one more time and seeing if the message was received.
I think, from Rambis' perspective...
….it was more about the fact that Tolliver HAD earned more minutes. He could have put Love on the floor again near the end just to see, but the game was really close and Tolliver just kept making impact plays. So I can see why Rambis wanted to just leave him out there
Dumb question
Is Love just trying to pace himself because he is out of shape and the coaches notice it???
by Breaking Ankles on Oct 28, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
He doesn't seem out of shape
He just….drifts sometimes. It’s more in his head, that he seems to think he’s entitled to certain things as a player, and I do agree with S-n-P that part of this is Rambis trying to knock him down a few pegs. Love, by my eye, seems to think he’s a Tim Duncan franchise type of player, when he’s really more of a David Lee high end role player.
"trotting him out one more time"
If a guy is making a supreme effort on the defensive end in the 4th
quarter, why would you sub him just to give someone “face time”?
I agree. Tolliver earned his minutes. When a team is in sync like
Sactown was, you need stops, especially in the 4th. We won that
quarter, by the way. One guy said he wanted both power forwards
in at the same time. Not a good idea in transition. The guys that
wanted Love in; uh, did they watch the game? Tolliver was playing
D on steroids. How could you honestly yank him while he’s
performing like that?
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Bench Beasley or Darko at that point to get Love in?
Watching the game I thought Tolliver should have been in at the end – he played hustle defense and made some pretty big plays. However, if you felt Love needed to be in the game i would sub him in for Tolliver instead of benching Beasley or Darko. Love guarding DMC would have been funny.
by Breaking Ankles on Oct 28, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
They tried it for like, a minute last night
Bill Laimbeer appeared to shut it down before any real damage could be done
I missed that
By the way, thanks for the triangle info – when you know what to look for it is pretty easy to spot and i can see a flow to their offense now – or lack there of when it was Bassy less Darko pick and roll.
by Breaking Ankles on Oct 28, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Total playing time aside ...
… it does seem faintly ridiculous that down 3 they didn’t put Love in for Milicic. If you’d sent out a lineup of Ridnour, Ellington, Johnson, Love, Tolliver, that’s a legitimate 3-point threat at every position. Instead Darko was handling the ball at the top of the three-point line for several seconds. I get Rambis feeling out who’s going to be playing in the rotation. I get playing Telfair for long minutes even when he was pounding the ball into the floor. I get not going with Love because Tolliver is hot. But I don’t get how you don’t give yourself a chance to win with 6 seconds left.
this argument is why
rambis is FOS. he was definitely doing more than benching love for poor defense.
Final game of last year, KLove gets benched for the 4th Q....
Nice way to leave things for the summer. So what happens? KLove performs well on USA team, everyone syas he’s matured, has become a team leader, the face of the orginization etc. Even Rambis waxes poetic about him. Opening game, Love gets 10 rebounds in the 1st half, plays 8 minutes in the 2nd half, and is looking bewildered, and embarrassed to not be in during crunch time.
It seems like EVERYBODY else last year had a long leash, except Kevin, and just for unity’s sake in a very winnable game to put him back in w/ even 5 minutes left and say go for it… whats the worst that could’ve happened.. we lost? Love is the sort of player who can go on a tear, rebounding and scoring wise at any time. As the overall team defense wasn’t great even without him, he could’ve gathered several of the offensive rebounds that Sac got. He gets easy put backs (though he missed a few yesterday). He makes things happen The Wolves are a better team with him than without him.
In other words, its the 1st game of the season for christsakes. Let your leader lead! See what he’ll do in money time. Now all of the clouds hangin over Love/Rambis from last year are going to be right out front again (on the 1st game of the year!)
Do think this is the way we’re going to encourage Love to stay when he’s a free agent? All I know is I was pissed off for him (I like several others here, actually had hoped he was hurt, rather than benched), imagine how he’s feeling already (afterall, its only the 1st game of the year, and he played only 24 minutes, 10 in the 2nd half).
On so many levels, I just don’t get it.
by lazlopierce on Oct 28, 2010 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
How did Coach K use Kevin?
How many minutes did he get? Did he start? Did he sub for NBA superstars?
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Hilarious chart
Maybe Rambis finally has a genius plan to make Darko the superstar…, that no one else could figure out.
I am a Blazer fan, but still follow guys like Love and Martell Webster. Most around Portland would love to have Martell back, even with a 6 week recovery time. A classy guy. I hope he does well for you when he recovers.
This isn't the Lakers,...
"It's not Show time. It's GO time!"
"War is Hell. Go to War!"
From the stands!
Cousins showed why the Wolves blew it again. Johnson will be good but won’t have the impact that Cousins brings. They say that we didn’t need Cousins because of Love, yet in the 4th there was no Love.
Besides that YOU DON’T bench your best player/marketable player on opening night because a ROLE player is having a good night.
Ridnour PG…. True PG, creates good spacing, can score when needed.
Johnson SG… Great scorer, looks like good defender
Beasley SF….. Great versatility, Great potential
Love PF………. Great rebounder, good player with energy
Darko C……… Nice Big with upside
All need to play most of the minutes with Pekovic, Tolliver and Ellington getting the rest for now. Pekovic is got some good post moves and is a beast out there. Tolliver is a good energy guy but not a go to guy. Ellington is great backup SG.
I don't know about most marketable
If crowd reaction is any indication, Love trails Beasley, Wes, and Brewer in the popularity department
Weird treatment?
That was a comment about his marketability. Had nothing to do with his on-court performance
Oceanary
I’m not a big Love Fan but the Wolves have him as the face of the Team. Beasley could be the go to guy. Wes, Beasley, Ridnour and Love are a good start, but have to be on the floor together. Personally I think Wes is already the go to guy from what I seen at the game. Brewer and Telfair are gone when Webster and Flynn get back.
Great chart.
I think the lineup for the last minute was entirely inexplicable. No Love. No Beasley. And Wes Johnson hadn’t played most (at all?) in the 4th.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
It's a funny premise
But it’s already being used as fact by some supposedly-reputable outlets. How do these morons get jobs as writers?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 28, 2010 5:01 PM CDT reply actions
Wow - wonder if they asked for permission
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Oct 28, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I wasn't asked for permission.
Don’t know if someone else was, though.
by Jon Marthaler on Oct 29, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
how is it moronic
to question why a rebuilding team wouldn’t play its best young prospect down the stretch of a regular season game? royce young is an extremely good writer who observes competent management and coaching on a regular basis. (he covers the Thunder).
by voiceofharlanspast on Oct 28, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
also
think about the message being sent to k love. last year the coaches, reportedly, took issue with his penchant for taking threes. so what did he do? by all evidence we have, he went out and improved his shooting from long distance. in the very first game of the season, when this new part of his game would have been extremely helpful in the closing minutes stretching the floor, he wasn’t brought in. tolliver is a great bench player who brought a lot of energy last night, but you have to go with your best players if you are really concerned with winning.
love has got to be questioning whether this is just a personal issue – i would be.
he’ll probably leave and go to a team that leaves with his defensive liabilities in return for having an extremely efficient and productive player. and he’ll probably drop 16 and 20 every time he comes back to minneapolis before the wolves finally, mercifully, get contracted.
by voiceofharlanspast on Oct 28, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Pretty sure Royce used that as the joke it was intended to be.
It was nice he linked it and provided the source, but, yeah, very bad form if he didn’t ask permission first.
The Twolve fans have little expectations for this team. They are arguably one of the worst teams in the league. Last night Rambis simply showed what he is coaching for. That being a top four pick in the lottery. Face it Minnesota, your point guard is a trade throw in. Your center is a reject head case. Your young players Love, Johnson and Beasley are nice to build around.
Hopefully Flynn will come back and direct this asinine offense. But you are still two players or more away from being competitive. Rambis knows this. So does ownership. Good luck watching the L’s this season.
by Longtimewaiting on Oct 28, 2010 5:34 PM CDT reply actions
Even though you're a troll, I fear you may be right.
Last night’s rotations made me think Rambis is tanking again. And if he wasn’t tanking last year, he should fired on the spot because he’s terrible.
Hopefully the tanking hasn’t begun on this season and Rambis just screwed up.
But rebounding is part of defense. Love sometimes doesn’t get out on his man quite as much as he should, but he gobbles up so many rebounds and ends opponent possessions. What good is it to get a hand in the face of a shooter if you give up an offensive rebound? It’s a question of probabilities and priorities.
I play in a men’s rec league, and obviously the guys in my league don’t shoot as well as the pros. Therefore, I place a higher priority on rebounding than anything. I play defense and try to make people take tough shots, but I will absolutely not do anything that will put me and my teammates in a position where we’re likely to give up offensive boards, cause that’s a recipe for losing the game.
by princelyfrank on Oct 28, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
And as for you, good luck picking the lint out of your navel.
Looks like your posts on NBA teams now amount to one. Thanks for stopping by for the stellar commentary.
Outsider chiming in:
Is it a case of Kahn and Rambis not seeing eye to eye on Love’s value? I have to imagine that if Rambis keeps this up, Kahn would rather fire Rambis than let Love sit on the bench for another year…
Kahn has been much more in Rambis' corner than Love's
They’ve been pretty unified since Rambis was hired, whereas Love has been at odds with them both more often than not
Rambis = Kahn's first hire...
Love is from Mchale’tenure… which one do you think he’d go down with the ship for?
Rambis' comment of "That's your opinion"....
might be the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a coach say. In what conceivable way is this productive? Don’t get me wrong, he’s not obligated to coddle anyone on the team, but being openly antagonistic towards KLove, who, by the way, is most certainly the best player on our team, is so asinine that it leaves me speechless and angry. He should have just come right and said, “F#$# Kevin Love!” The inevitable conclusion of this nonsense is Love leaving the first chance he gets…..and then Kahn telling us all how this fits into his plan.
I love the chart!
Wish the conclusion was different though…..
by Premier Cherdenko on Oct 28, 2010 7:12 PM CDT reply actions
Twolves have a delemma brewing
They really need both Love and Beasley to play – and play a lot – to help turn this franchise around. Both from a performance and marketing perspective. But based on my watching (Sioux Falls and last night) – I don’t see it happening. One or the other is going to be very unhappy about playing time.
Right now, Beasley (and Webster to a far lesser extent) is the only 1 who can create his own shot. My friend has commented that Beasley is not very interested in defense in general and has some serious quickness issues defending 3 even in practice. Love has improved his shooting a ton making him far more valuable offensively, but he still needs the help of others to score (by pass or, by missing a shot for an offensive rebound!!) Quite frankly, Love has serious physical issues (height / quickness) guarding 75% of the 4’s in the NBA.
So, right now, Rambis is stuck with having 2 of his best players (Beasley and Love) playing positions where they are very subpar defenders. You can’t expect to win with that unless you have a Dwight Howard super star backing you up. Darko and Pec are adequate, but not that strong to cover up the difference. (Pec is going to struggle all year adapting to NBA rules)
If the offensive is humming, I see Beasley getting more bench. If we are struggling to get shots, Love is going to see more bench. I fully expect to see Rambis favor defense in his subbing – especially in the 4th quarter of closed games.
That mean one or the other (Beasley or Love) is going to be pissed.
well, better to have this opportunity (i.e., problem) than to not have it
Rambis prepped love for sixth man status last year. i say Love ends up on the bench and they only trade him (or beasley) in a signature move.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
It's very interesting
because Taylor has firmly stated that the team MUST make a significant improvement from last year’s win loss record. Would be interested in others with sources to confirm this and, more importantly, see if a number was mentioned.
Frankly, Beasley and Love should be playing 35+ minutes with many of them together for at least the first 40 games – record be damned. It’s the only way we are going to find out if these guys are up to the challenge (as much mentally as physically) or being core players in these roles (3 and 4 respectively)
But the sense I get (and no, I have not been around the team that much yet to make this statement anything more than a sense) is that Rambis is more interested in establishing a winning attitude/culture than than he is in pure player development. (I know – winning attitude and player development are not mutual exclusive)
But my point is more along the lines of unless a potential core player (Beasley, Love, Wes, Flynn) is not working hard and/or is showing outward (and negative) signs of frustration, I would rather see Rambis let them play through it rather than going with the “other player having a better night” playing time decision. The W’s, at least to me, are still not all that important.
Will be an very interesting subplot to watch.
B.S.
Tolliver earned his minutes with a supreme defensive effort last night. Tolliver
is the only reason Tolliver was on the floor in the 4th. It had nothing to
do with Kevin, except that maybe Kevin didn’t have a great game.
Kev got 10 ribbies, but he was 4-11, and his defense was not as good as Tollivers.
Corey Brewer is a shooting guard, not a power forward. That chart is a pile of
crap. I saw Yahoo Sports (AP article) is reporting that Love only played 9min
in the game instead of 23. Great reporting. I’m hoping that Kevin has more
maturity than the writers that are trying to stir the pot and create controversy.
I’m sure he would have kept Tolliver in the game, too, when he saw the work
ethic. You want two power forwards in the game at the same time? I don’t
think that will help you much in transition.
A coach has to reward a player that plays as hard as Tolliver did. He was out
there like he was in the playoffs. It’s not about him vs Kevin. Did anyone
writing this crap see the game?
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
It isn't writers stirring controversy
Many of us here, non-writers, were pretty angry about the rotations last night.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Oct 28, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
So you want Kevin in when Kevin is having a bad game?
I don’t see the point. I’d rather play him on a night he’s playing well.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
I disagree that he was having that bad a game
and yes. I think Kevin Love is a better player than Tolliver. Regardless of what’s gone on in a game so far, my expectation is that Kevin Love will play better than Tolliver going forward, so I want him in the game, yes.
I don’t get the AT love, frankly. He seemed just OK to me. The run petered out, and they should have reinserted Love.
And as I noted above, yes, I watched the game. Just like you.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Oct 28, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Kevin is a better all-around player than Tolliver, too...
…but as a not too unsuccessful coach myself, for many years, to me it was
about match-ups, it was about winning effort, and it was about who has the
hot-hand on any given night. It was never about “who’s our best player?”
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Were you an NBA coach?
Because I think when you’re dealing with players this talented, it becomes about “who’s our best player?”
how not too unsuccessful
Absolutely no disrespect meant but really? My coaching experience is limited (growing fast, I’m pretty young for this), but I think having a defined alpha dog who has the job of barking, “BALL!” in the last thirty seconds of the game is extremely important, if only because if there isn’t a specific one of those guys it creates bad feelings. Basketball players for better or worse are extremely prideful, but that pride can be easily channeled into making them better players if you manipulate it properly. I would never, for instance, bench my best player for crunch time just to prove a point about defensive effort. That’s petty, a technique often used with establishing authority as the primary objective while winning takes a backseat. Bottom line, every great basketball talent i’ve ever watched play had a streak of prideful arrogance (even john stockton for christ’s sake). That pride is fragile, and Rambis shouldn’t have jeopardized Love’s over Anthony Tolliver trying hard. Actually my biggest challenge as a coach is reminding myself that just because a kid is trying as hard as he can doesn’t mean it’s fair for me to give him a roster spot over a kid with more natural talent. It just seems like you’re being biased towards basketball personalities you prefer when you say the Wolves had a better chance of winning with Tolliver on the floor.
by Haydenemmanuel on Nov 4, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
A Blazer fan chiming in
I hail from Portland, Oregon and am not here to troll. I just don’t understand the reasoning behind Rambis’s decision making. If you want defense on the floor than pair Love with someone that was working hard. I watched the last bit of the game and I saw what rambis saw. Love seemed lackadaisical, but he is the best post scorer your team has. I have a bias since he is from my area and is on my fantasy team, but I would also just like to see sane coaching. Rambis reminded me of McMillan last night. When players are contributing, don’t bench them. Instead of keeping Darko on the floor, pair Tolliver with Love.
with Love at the 5? He's a little undersized for that job late in the game.
Cousins would have had lunch. Bad match-up.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
However, I think it's worth a few minutes on given nights. Kevin *can* run
the Wheel.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
I'll bet Ridnour was pissed
Love should have been in the game. Rambis isn’t careful he’ll be replaced by the Texas Rangers manager.
by duckofdeath on Oct 29, 2010 12:02 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Rangers are doing great against the Giants, aren't they?
They’d better pitch Ryan in the 3rd game.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Great chart! At least you guys know how to laugh Rambis' stupidity off.
I think he’s benching Love as soon as he gets the double double, just to make sure he’ll keep it :P
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Canis Hoopus
Related FanShots on Canis Hoopus
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Mike Brown wants Jimmy Goldstein to ask a press conference question (VIDEO)
- Create-a-Caption: ‘Vengeance is mine,’ quoth Alvis
- Roy Hibbert wants to play for Team USA, seeks release from Jamaican national team
- Bucks forward Jon Brockman loves wearing adult onesies
- Andrew Bynum after 9-0 Thunder run beats Lakers: ‘We’re better than Santa Claus’
