American Wolves In London
by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 4, 2010 9:18 PM CDT
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Wayne Ellington at the point, more Beasley points than Beasley minutes, a 59.4% eFG, between-the-legs Kevin Love passes, a disinterested Lakers team with only 6 minutes of Kobe Bryant...it wasn't exactly a night day to read a lot in to, but it sure was fun to see the squad out there on the court again. Better yet, it was fun to see them playing entertaining ball. In fact, the Wolves were far and away the more entertaining team earlier today in London.
Without reading too much into things that don't amount to all that much, there are a few things that are abundantly clear about this year's Minny team....along with a few game notes:
- They have legit NBA size, length, and athleticism at the 2 and 3. We'll have to see how the shooting and talent plays out at these two spots, but it was somewhat jarring to watch the team throw out guys like Corey Brewer, Martel Webster, Wes Johnson, and Michael Beasley at the 2 and 3 instead of Sasha Pavlovic, Rodney Carney, Shaddy, and Randy Foye. Beasley is fixed at the 3, but Webster, Johnson, and Brewer all seem to be able to have some positional flexibility at the 2/3. If Beasley can turn into something of a gunner at the starting 3, and the trio of Webster, Johnson, and Brewer can play d and hit the 3, the Wolves could have backed themselves into a fairly stout wing rotation.
- Minny bigs are going to get some assists this season. 6, 5, 2, and 3. Those are the assist totals for Kevin Love, Darko Milicic, Nikola Pekovic, and Anthony Tolliver. It will take quite a few more good passing games from Darko to allow David Kahn an "I told you so" to Chris Webber, but the 4/5 in this offense is going to get some nice opportunities for kick outs and some solid pick-and-roll action.
- Despite the team's fantastic shooting, Corey Brewer went 1-9 from the floor.
- Nikola Pekovic is a bull. He had 1 FGA and 6 FTAs.
- The Wolves out rebounded the Lakers overall, but they were murdered on the offensive glass: 17 to 8. This is going to be something to keep an eye on, as Darko and Pek are not known as defensive rebounding monsters.
- Mike Beasley had a nice scoring run, but he also turned the ball over 6 times. That being said, I'm all for the team letting him develop into a high usage type of scoring threat. He is far and away the most offensively talented player on this team and he should be treated as such.
- The Wolves now have the top 2 players from the 08 Hoopus Draft Board. If only they could get Derrick Rose.
- The Wolves won this game at the line. Actually, LA lost it from the line, as they went 18-33 from the line (54.5%) while the Wolves put in a 23-32 effort (71.9%).
- Wayne Ellington is not an NBA back up point guard, but that is what he played against the Lakers. Bassy is needed in a bad way right now.
- Anthony Tolliver is going to earn some good minutes on this team.
- My prediction for the best 5 man rotation: Ridnour, Johnson, Beasley, Tolliver, Love.
- Love is going to have a silly-good year.
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Fun Game
Sure it was preseason and the opponent didn’t appear to be very interested for most of the second half, but I think it’s very clear that this team will be a massive upgrade in the entertainment department. Unlike last year, there wasn’t a single player that made me want to strap some dynamite to my TV when they got up to check in, I enjoyed watching all of them. Ridnour impressed me much more than I thought he would, as did Webster.
I take umbrage to that Ellington comment!
For a guy who has never played much PG, he did an alright job in a supposedly complicated offense. Like I said in TA’s game thread, he’d be a solid option as a backup PG for a change of pace, slow it down style for 5-10mpg. Half court PG a lot more than he is a full court, fast paced PG.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Wayne
The guy can flat out shoot the rock. His dribbling and court vision is not NBA PG status. It would definitely be cool to see those things improve to the point where we can have a PG who can shoot. I thought the Wolves looked really good for the most part, except for some sloppy turnovers and not grabbing boards under the hoop. I had a lot of fun watching them, which hasn’t really happened in a while.
Backtracking to last year
we saw quite a few nice Wayne drive and kicks. Significantly better than Jonny did (on average… Jonny had a few spectacular plays). I’m not saying he’s your ideal PG, but for a backup, change of pace, Triangle-esque, PG? Not a bad option at all. Like I said though, as of now, he is not suited for the uptempo pace as his handles and court vision have not quite caught up with his ability to get up and down the court. With some work though, he could be melded into a pretty successful backup PG in our system. I, for one, would LOVE to see that.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
If Wayne Ellington gets minutes at the point...
…after 2 first rounders and 2 Bucks free agent signings, then something has gone amiss ;) Although, to be fair to Ellington, and to explore this a bit more, he has more Derrick Fisher in him than anyone else on the roster and that probably is playing a large part in him getting a look at the point….that and Bassy being hurt ;) But, in all seriousness, the Fisher angle may have legs.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Well I haven't hidden the fact
that I already think something is amiss with that first Bucks free agent signing. And something also went amiss with our 6th pick last year. And our 5th pick isn’t here yet.
So I counter your something going amiss with something already amiss :-p
Where I see Wayne excelling as a PG (as if I haven’t already said):
-Slow it down, grind it out, pass it in to our bigs and let them go to work. Wayne sits outside waiting for the pass out of the double or after the defensive rotations break down.
-Where he can take his time when the ball is in his hands.
-Driving and dishing
-Off of screens
-PnR
-PnP
-He’s big for a PG, but small for a SG
-Deceptively athletic (like seriously, he just might be one of the top 3 athletes on our team… and we aren’t short on athletes)
-I mentioned in another thread, but a lot of PGs defend under a screen. If they make that mistake on Wayne he can pop it like he did tonight. If they try to fight over a good screen, he has shown to be able to drive and dish off to the big or finish at a decent rate.
A few major pitfalls for him as a PG:
-Defense?
-Dribbling is not up to par with that which is required of an uptempo PG
-Passing is nothing special for a traditional system (but in the “triangle” where he has to create less….)
-Full court presses
One thing I notice: A couple of his pitfalls are things that can be fixed with time and practice and repitition (defense kind of, dribbling, beating the press… it’s the passing/court vision which will stop him from being a borderline starting PG).
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Ellington's D is better suited to play PG
His size is a hindrance against the larger SG’s, and with our new acquisitions at the wing, he’s probably going to struggle to find minutes at SG. Obviously the coaches like what he brings to the table, especially as he was such a focus in Summer League, where he pretty much ran the offense. So, getting him minutes at PG seems to make a lot of sense. No, he isn’t a true PG, but at times, when the offense is running through Beasley, it doesn’t hurt to have another shooter on the floor. He seems to have the right demeanor to do whatever is asked of him to contribute and if he gets time at PG, he’s going to get better at it.
Kind of a moot point, but I was thinking that if we could’ve made a deal to move up and get Turner, Ellington would be even more valuable, being able to defend the PG while Turner ran the offense. So, if Beasley can run the offense from the 3, it still kind of works. Something to keep an eye on at least.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
I was gonna say something like this...
…comparing Ellington to Fisher. I think Wayne can be like Fisher, but with better defense, better size. Glad you brought it up.
Keep the dream alive Mplax!
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 4, 2010 10:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Ellington looked like he wasn’t a good ball handler. He just seemed over-matched at times. But I think it is something he could work on and eventually get to a point where I don’t cringe when I see him bringing the ball up the court. It seemed like he was capable of doing everything else that a triangle PG is asked to do though. I just get the feeling that if his minutes at the PG spot came against a guy like Chris Paul he would end up with about a dozen turnovers in only 10 minutes of playing time.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
It's a good thing, then
that Ellington will never be playing minutes against Chris Paul (or so we all hope). I think Wayne is definitely worth keeping around, very much definitely worth keeping around. Think of this way – once Bjelly comes over, how great would it be to play Wayne at the 1 and Bjelly at the 2?
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
I agree.
I like what Ellington brings to the game. I think he can become a nice backup point guard in the half-court game. I just don’t know if he’ll be able to progress enough to be reliable in the transition game or bringing the ball up the court against a pressing defender.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
Let's keep a tally
If we’re looking at Wayne going from SG to PG, we can add that to:
-Beasley going from PF at Kansas State to PF/SF at Miami to SF here
-Johnson going from SF/PF at Syracuse to a SG here
-Martell going from a SF in Portland to a SG here
-Brewer going from a SF at Florida to being better as a SG to let’s try him back at SF, but not at expense of Sasha’s minutes there, but rather of Beasley, Johnson, and Martell’s
-5’11" Jonny Flynn being advertised as an off-guard on draft night
-Big Al going from PF at Boston to C here, then back to PF, and now back to C again with Utah
-Randy Foye going from the SF in a 3-guard offense at Villanova to PG here then back to SG
-Kevin Love going from PF to SF, but only against Carmelo Anthony
We’re cursed in the lottery, our 2nd year players always get hurt… Is it also possible that contact with the organization can turn players into ‘tweeners even when they weren’t before?
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
david kahn...
…Going from d league bagman to pobo.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 5, 2010 5:57 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Gosh, I'm glad I'm not as pessimistic as John Doe
I had a good time watching the game, myself, and I’ve enjoyed the team develop, and the effectiveness of coaches and the front office in the last year.
I’m just a glass half full guy…
I'm with you, timmuggs
Rambis’ offensive system is less about who’s a 2 or a 3 then it is about who’s a scorer, who’s a rebounder, etc.
- So Beasley as a 3? Sure, whatever. Offensively it’s about Beasley as a scorer. Who can he post up against? Can we give him space to operate in or open looks? Defensively it’s still a question, but is he really going to get abused by the 3’s of the West? Overall I think the 3’s in the East are far better than the 3’s in the West. It’s a pretty big dropoff after KD.
- Wes Johnson as a SG? Ya, why not? He’s fast enough defensively, and again offensively in Rambis’ system it’s not that he’s a 2 but that he’s a shooter and a scorer. Done and done. And as for playing PF in college, well, I think Wes is as much a PF as Lazar was a PF and C – he did what he had to do for his team.
- All the other stuff, ya, sure, I guess you can see it that way. Those guys looked good yesterday, and you could see for the first time what Rambis and Kahn have been talking about. I think we need to stop analyzing these guys in terms of who’s a 3, who’s a 4, blah blah, but in terms of who’s best for a given role offensively and defensively. From what I saw Martell looked incredibly good as a perimeter wing guy. I thought Beasley showed some very good things out there, especially as a 21 year old player. I thought Love looked like a potential game changing catalyst for all these shooters. I thought Pek looked like every bit as capable of a low post scorer as Big Al with far better FT drawing ability to boot. And you know what? I think Kahn’s done a pretty damn great job of assembling this roster. This team is so much better than anything we saw last year while still having multiple first rounders coming up in the future, a lot of salary cap space, zero bad contracts, and Ricky Rubio and Bjelly still waiting abroad. I’m sorry for all you still pining for Curry and DMC, but that ship has sailed. Please don’t let your love/lament for them blind you to what is emerging as an engaging and exciting young team in the making, courtesy of Kahn and Rambis.
Here’s my prediction for you – this team will win more games than Sacramento this year.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 5, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
hell yes
I loved reading through the game thread as I couldn’t watch it real time as I was working. Season’s looking up as it should at least be entertaining and not hairpulling.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 5, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Not to worry
I’m pretty optimistic, especially after yesterday. This was more of a joke post than anything else.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Glad to hear it!
I wondered how serious it was.
There are a lot of things we can pick on, and sometimes it’s fun to echo the gloom & doomers.
This will be a fun season, I’m all in on that one.
Nail down two positions, the rest of the roster will follow.
When the whole team’s made up of half-developed projects, mills around. Get yourself two good two-way players who can stay on the floor, and things will settle a bit.
In retrospect that moment of Love matching up on Carmelo was a sort of marker for the last, bedraggled stretch of last season. Love’s incredulity over how Rambis was using him, the sense that Rambis had thrown up his hands about trying to make the roster work defensively…. After that point I think they coasted to a 1-14 close of the year, or something like that.
(We can sure say McHale was not good at figuring out whether someone could play a given position defensively. Foye drafted as a PG. Jaric, starting point…. or, uh, SF. Al Jefferson period. Kevin Mac had problems with that.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I swear, the interface here is dropping words lately.
The word “talent” is gone from this one: “talent mills around.”
Stuff is getting clipped off at the end of posts, too.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Oct 5, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't you read the national media?
You’re not allowed to use the word “talent” when referring to the Timberwolves! The blog edits that for you.
All we have are PGs and SFs! They signed Darko to a HUGE contract! KAAAAHN!
I will suggest that we shouldn’t read too much into the 1st preseason game. The team looks more fun to wach, but what happens when the shorts (particularly the 3s) arent’ dropping? Can they stop anyone? Can they cut down on turnovers?
My view is one of simple math: if they do have better shooters (and i think they do) if they can make one more 2pt and one more 3pt per game, keeping all else the same, the Wolves point differential would go from “historically terrible” to “bad, but at least in the company of some other teams.” If they can play a bit of defense (a big if, but i have to believe their wings will be better and Darko and Pek can be better than AJ and Hollins) they can make the point differential even more respectable. If only the 1st comes true, it should translate into a 10 game improvement. If both come true, it could be more like 15. That would be remarkable, even if it means only 30 wins.
What happens when the shorts *are* dropping?
but what happens when the shorts (particularly the 3s) arent’ dropping
There are kids in those stands. Think of the children!
I want defense. If we’d posted something last year, and the word “defense” had been removed several times, that would only have been fair.
The differential in wing production last year was ridiculous. Re-stating the various tradeoffs you mention just in terms of the 2 and 3 spots, alone, could start to make a person feel optimistic. We’re talking about 7 points below even at SF alone, according to 82games. Shaker full of salt and all that, but just having enough players to make a rotation on the wing would be a huge difference this time around.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Feral, your comment on the interface is true
I have seen it. It may be due to my habit of using the “minus key” to insert a dash, which may truncate some text.
I’ll try it here.
1. I think the use of the minus key truncates the following text.
2. I think the use of the — truncates the following text.
Let’s see if it does?
It also sometimes gets 'confused' about where comments go.
Sometimes it’ll remember some previous post’s location, and put it there. Sometimes it uses the title from a previous post on a new one.
There must be some client-end thing going on.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'm hoping to see Love work out at center a fair amount this year
I think he can when teams go to their benches….6th men post players tend to be of the undersized variety. Beasley at the 3 and Love at the 4 will definitely work fine, but I’d like to get Beas, Wes, and Webster all on the floor at once a lot. Tons of firepower in that lineup.
Me too
It will allow them to play Tolliver a bit more and it could be a good up tempo lineup with both of them in there.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Love and Tolliver
is like Love and Hollins, but without the size.
And without the brick hands.
And the annoying attitude.
And a lot more hustle.
And better shooting.
And better passing.
Ok yeah I’ll enjoy watching this upgrade.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Sorry, but a failed experiment
It has long been evident that K-Love is not an NBA center. Only wish he had the height to hold the position but he doesn’t.
Kevin was tried at center this past summer and it didn’t work out. The Wolves have flirted at positioning Kevin at center in the past with similar results.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I agree
Love can be great at PF. Darko should start at C to balance the floor with his D/give us size inside. But Pek will get a lot of minutes.
by ChicagoViking on Oct 5, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the point is that Love can be a center in certain situations
basically, against other undersized centers.
But, I can’t imagine it happening that much. Darko and Pekovic will take most of the minutes there. And then we have another full sized center sitting on the bench in Koufos.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Oct 5, 2010 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I think one of the major changes this year
is the flexibility.
Instead of guys playing out of position because there are no better options, we can have guys play out of position for short stretches to give us better matchups.
Small lineup: Love Beasley Wes Webster Ridnour
BIG lineup: Darko Pek Beasley Wes Ridnour
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Oct 5, 2010 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Big Lineup
I like the idea of seeing Darko and Pekovic playing side-by-side in the post at times. With Darko providing the D and passing, and Pekovic providing the O – could be interesting. I know I’m going against the grain here, but I don’t think Love needs to play extended minutes, he performed really well in short spurts in the FIBA tournament. With Pekovic, Tolliver, and Beasley all able to play the 4, Love realistically shouldn’t play more than 30 min a game, if that.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
Does anyone other than Beasley
get more than 30 MPG this season?
by Rascal Flatts on Oct 4, 2010 10:24 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Wayne
Also played PG extensively during Summer League. An interesting way of getting another solid shooter on the floor.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Of course we lost the Offensive rebound battle
When you shoot nearly 60%, there are far less offensive rebounds to be had. Great game, Wolves.
Good point!
Glass half full again, I’ll take it.
And I tend to refill before it gets emptied, too.
Let's see, what would those numbers be?
It looks like the Wolves had ~43 chances to get an offensive board, and got 8 of them. That’s ~19%.
The Lakers had ~59 chances at a board, and got 17. That’s ~29%.
I wouldn’t read too much into it, it’s a preseason game where Derrick Caracter got 5 ORBs, but L.A. did have an edge. Really over time the problem’s probably going to be offensive rebounding when Love isn’t on the floor. Neither Darko nor Pekovic is all that bad on the defensive glass. Their numbers on the other end are pretty bad, though. If Love’s not out there down the stretch of a close game, the Wolves don’t look like they’ll get many second chances.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Oct 5, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
si...
…the percentages were way off from the field. too bad popcorn machine isn’t up yet so we can see how it would have fared with free throws factored in to the equation.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Don’t agree with the offensive rebounding, imo clear example of stats not telling the whole/right story. The Lakers just crapped up their putbacks, I remember one specific passage where they got at least 5 “offensive rebounds” by slapping the ball all over the rim .. and eventually not scoring ..
by Wim (Belgium) on Oct 6, 2010 6:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That "Volleyball" stuff is there for every team, however.
Uh, I tried to qualify things just about every way I could there, and didn’t really mean to be refuting the basic statement about shooting percentages. Someone mentioned the idea that the Wolves didn’t have as many misses, so I looked to see how much that would have affected things, that’s all.
But just in passing I would mention that every team gets some share of those “cheap” offensive boards where they’re taking repeated shots at their own layups. Al Jefferson did that for a healthy share of his own offensive rebound stats. You know? And the other team does get a chance to take those rebounds away and start a possession of their own, preventing the attempted putback, too. (Also, I think people overestimate how often that happens and how much it changes the numbers, especially over the course of multiple games. It’s one of those perception things, where it’s a distinctive thing so we remember it more. People are seriously off when it comes to Love’s rebounding numbers in that way, I’m dang sure of that. They’ll imply that he’s getting lots of his ORBs off his own blocks. It’s just not true.)
Again, my general point about the current roster is that the Wolves need to worry about their own offensive boards more than the opponents’, given the front court pieces, when Love isn’t on the floor. Love is basically the only proven offensive rebounder on this roster, at least up front. Darko and Pekovic project to be at least okay defensive boarders.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Oct 6, 2010 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kinda disagree...
But only because they might need to choose: have one-shot possessions in order to get back on D or crash the offensive boards and give up more fastbreak points.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 6, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Rebounding
should be a big focus for this team until they prove they can do it reliably. I think it’s still too early to tell after one game, as maybe we saw the mean that we’ll regress to or maybe we simply saw a little variation and the mean lies elsewhere. At any rate, I think the skill is there for this team to be a solid rebounding team, but I have a suspicion that we won’t see it until 30-50 games in as guys figure out when to crash the boards and when to run on the break, etc. Although I definitely expect to see a greater focus and effort from the bigs not named Love to grab boards or tap them out to other guys.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
I ran the numbers
a while back in this post. I was pretty shocked to see that pretty much every TWolf with a paper trail was a below average rebounder for his position. It is definitely going to need to be an area of focus this season. Still, it’s not something I was really paying attention to in the Lakers game until there were 3-4 Lakers surrounding every board on repeated possessions. And while getting offensive boards is nice, not getting them is less frustrating than not keeping the opposing team off the offensive glass. If the Laker numbers were inflated due to volleyballing, which should be apparent on the play by play transcript, it was only because no Wolves were threatening to grab any of those tips.
Others have argued that rebounding stats are among the most static across seasons and role. I certainly hope this is not the case, and that our bigs show some real aptitude in this area. Those times of Lakers board dominance were the only instances where I actually thought about Jefferson’s absence during the game. Not that I was pining for him, but he did enter my consciousness when wondering if we looked that bad on the boards last season.
Awesome post back in August. Time machine "rec" there.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Those are great numbers you researched
I think these are the pertinent ones:
Darko: 7.5% ORR/16.9% DRR; Cave: 9.5%/22%
Beasley: 6.3%/18.8%; PFave: 8.8%/20.8%
Webster: 2.9%/13.7%’ SFave: 4.1%/14.3%
I’ll be curious to see what happens to Darko’s numbers especially. Backing up Marc Gasol with Memphis he was actually much closer to league average for a center (8.5/20.2 and 9.7/21.8 compared to Cave 9.5/22). Even in Orlando his second year he went 9.6/18.4 backing up Dwight. The reason I bring these numbers up is that my own theory about Darko is that teams have struggled to find a role for him and keep him in it. Everyone’s been trying to figure out something, and usually that something is about figuring out what to do with a different player and whatever happens there then influences Darko. So the years in which he was simply the backup center (and no longer, as in Orlando, trying to be the center to Dwight’s PF), he actually was basically league average in rebounding (at least in terms of how we’re looking at it now). I have no idea what will happen this year playing next to a rebounder as good as Love (I expect Darko’s numbers won’t be that great), but then again he’ll have a clear role. I guess my biggest hope is that Darko gets 3-4 tip outs to other Wolves for rebounds. He’s tall enough and long armed enough for this to happen.
As for Beasley and Webster. Ya, I guess I’d expect Beasley to rebound better, but then again I kinda think that he’s a scorer first and a scorer second and then a rebounder, know what I mean? I would expect him to rebound about the same for us, given that most of his time last year was spent playing with Jermaine O’neal (who compares to Darko’s best years last year) and a surprisingly decent rebounding performance from Q-Rich last year.
Webster, on the other hand, played extensively with two bigs almost all the time – a lot with LMA and one of Howard, Oden, or Pryz. Those big guys sucked up a lot of boards, especially offensive boards. I think Webster might be a bit better of rebounder than we’ve seen given that his role in Portland was to hang back and drop threes, and given that he was almost always playing with two other guys who’s job it was to get boards. Having said that, our big guys’ job is to get boards, so we’ll see I guess. My expectation with Martell is that some nights he’ll be like he was against the Lakers, which means he’s looking to score a lot. Other night he won’t be shooting as much and may do other stuff instead, like rebound.
The guy who should make a bigger difference rebounding is Wes. He was a solid to great offensive rebounder in college, and a solid defensive rebounder as well. Not sure how that will translate if he’s playing more SG than SF/PF (which he did in college), but the skills are there. This is something to watch for as the season progresses for him.
So, at least as our starters go:
Love is a plus plus rebounder
Wes should be solid
Darko and Beasley will probably be a bit below average (for Darko because he’s playing with Love, and for Beasley because he’s the primary scoring option).
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Let's ask it this way:
When Love’s out of the game, who among the remaining front court options sometimes stays up to try for second chances?
I don’t think we can wave away the shortage of ORB possibilities by saying we don’t need any, ever, because we’re committed to defense….
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Optimism!
Loved the starting 5 for the most part.
- I’m over the Cousins pick. Wes is a huge 2, moves easily, and has a smooth stroke from range. Our frontcourt rotation makes sense, so the combo of fit and character questions validate going this route.
- That said, the scouting report that he can’t put it on the deck seems on point.
- Beasley at the 3 should work. His issue is general focus, not defense. Job #1 for Rambis is developing this guy. He can get to his spots in ways no Wolf has in a while.
- I’m a big Al fan, but Pekovic brings a “lite” version of low post game at a cheaper salary.
- Ridnour had better be the starting point guard all year. The PG needs to set the table for Wes, Beasley, and Love – not be a wild card. Flynn can be a 6th man/microwave.
- Darko still looks slow and doesn’t react with the instincts you would like to see. I suppose there is a tradeoff to get his size.
- As mentioned above, I don’t see any players whose time on the court insults fans this year. I.e. Hollins, Jawai, Pecherov.
- The team should just let Corey move on. It may be in their best interest to keep him to fill some minutes at the 2/3, but he is not in the 8-man rotation for a functional team.
Bring on the real games…
by Punisher#8 on Oct 5, 2010 7:40 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Cousins vs. Wes...
I still take Cousins over Wesley Snipes (thanks Klomp!). After watching Martell Webster it’s hard to see much difference between him and Johnson. As a struggling team in a small market, I would just much rather have the higher upside guy in DeMarcus Cousins.
That being said, if you draft DeMarcus Cousins there is no way you can trade for Michael Beasley. A good rule of thumb in the NBA is that there can only be one knucklehead on an effective team, so you couldn’t put Beasley and Cousins together. If the Wolves knew by draft time that they could get Beasley essentially for free, then the question becomes a little foggier:
Who would you rather have?
Wesley Snipes and Beasley
or
Cousins
I still take Cousins, but I could be swayed by Beasley over the course of the season.
Beasely and Wes > Cousins
If that’s the comparison. Plus, you don’t bring back Darko w/Cousins coming. Beasely and Cousins may both be stars. So, we got one plus Wes and Darko.
by ChicagoViking on Oct 5, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeppers
I’m in full agreement, for whatever’s that worth.
And while I don’t like the moniker “Wesley Snipes”, I could be persuaded to go with “Wesley Sniper”.
But if we hang that on him, I think he should get an endorsement from WInchester or Remington or Uzi or some company of that ilk.
Easy
Wes and Mike.I personally,am glad we took Wes over Dmc.
by bringthesun on Oct 5, 2010 8:40 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As I've said elsewhere,
selecting Cousins more or less pushes the Wolves into rebuilding anew around him because he doesn’t fit this rebuilding plan any better than Al Jefferson did. Selecting Johnson is another step in the current rebuild. That is enough of a reason for Kahn to roll the dice on him considering that GM’s aren’t often given multiple chances to rebuild a franchise. With the general consensus around the league regarding Kahn, he knows this is the only chance he’s ever going to get unless he succeeds. So when given the option of taking another step in your first rebuilding plan or admitting failure in order to start over with a player of Cousins’ talent, it’s understandable that Kahn chose the option that is more likely to preserve his dream job.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
by ynotsema2 on Oct 5, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Plus
Wes is a player. DMC will be good too, but Wes is going to be a player. I am amazed at the direction of this team because it’s just so unlike anything we’ve seen in the last 15 years of Wolves history. DMC would’ve fit the old style, Wes fits the new style. With Ricky coming over, I’m happy with our chances with Wes and the direction this team is going.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Still don't understand this idea
-Cousins was tops in the NCAA (maybe second?) among Cs at the % of shots of his that came on the fast break.
-Cousins plays a tremendous pick n roll game. And despite everyone’s love for Ricky in the uptempo game, it’s been said that he is the best PG in the world at the pick n roll game (which isn’t true, but just the fact that it’s been said…).
-He has the hands to catch anything Ricky (or Love) could throw at him.
-We still don’t know his red flag issues (Apparently they are so awful that they can’t be shared with the public???)
As much as I agree with the previously mentioned idea of not having too many knuckleheads on the team, I really think Beasley’s issues have mostly subsided. Maybe he’d be a good mentor for Cousins. And I also think Cousins’ issues have been overblown. I’d love to see a team where we could toss out a lineup of (something along the lines of):
Rubio
Brewer (or draft pick 2011)
Webster (or draft pick 2011)/Beasley
Beasley/Love
Cousins/Love
Improving our wing play could result in a pretty good uptempo team AND a spectacular half court team. My main point is, Cousins over Wes certainly doesn’t make or break the fast break thing. In fact, for his position, you could argue that Cousins is a better fast break player than Wes (though I grant you it would be a tough point to debate just because Wes is so clearly better than Cousins, regardless of position) from what we have seen so far.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I think I have a solution
We absolutely must assign Koufos to hinder, interrupt, foul, ridicule, insult, smack, and slam DMC at every opportunity. Get his temper up, make DMC a pariah in the league.
Maybe we pay some other 2nd string C’s to do the same.
The objective is to get DMC bumped from Sactown, and then pick him up cheap after he matures.
I know, this is a devious, underhanded and probably fruitless plan of action, but if anyone can carry it out, it would be Kahn & Rambis & Ronzone & Laimbeer.
That is their mission, if they choose to accept it.
Get Madsen to unretire
No one is more annoying than Mad Dog.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Talent upgrades everywhere
I know it’s one game, but:
PG — The vet Luke is a + over Flynn/Sessions. 7-2 ATO. Decent shooting. Flynn will look great (as the back up). Wayne has to play but not here.
SG — Wes/Webster/(Wayne). 3Ws that will get us a lot of Ws compared to last year. Suddenly we have great shooting, shooting guards.
SF — Beasely/Brewer/Wes/Webster/Hayward even. The main thing here is Beasely. He could be a star.
PF — Love starting. That’s the key. The team leader. Tolliver as back up is way better than last year, too. (SNP, Love shouldn’t be a C).
C — Along with PG, Wolves weakest position. But Darko can pass/defend. Pek can score. If they could sub for each possession, you’d have a good C. Hope Darko can get some O confidence. Hope Pek learns to defend w/o fouling out.
I like Rambis’ starting 5 and the bench. Good job, Kahn, on the roster upgrades.
Love shouldn't be a center...
…but he damn well better get 35+ mpg/game and that is going to mean time at the 5 if Tolliver, Pek, and Beasley are going to get a bunch of minutes as well. I know he’s not a traditional center but he’s going to get some minutes there.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Probably won't get 35+
I’m guessing it’ll be 31-33 per game, if he stays healthy. Here’s a list of guys in that minutes range, last year. Love hardly separates himself from most of that pack. That’s a good chunk of minutes for a player of his position and conditioning level.
In recent years past, the Wolves would have benefitted from 38+ minutes of Love and Jefferson both. With Darko, Pekovic, Beasley and Tolliver replacing the Big Oilies and Ryan Hollins’ of the world, we should be able to roll out fresh, capable bigs, more easily.
More than 31.8 minutes a night, dammit!
Sometimes I feel slightly insane. Somehow I look at that list and see some sort of cutoff right around there: a good to very good young player should get this amount or more. At which point it comes home to me how loopy one can get when they aren’t playing the games.
If Tolliver can be fresh legs from the bench especially, you’re probably right.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
If the Wolves put a premium on defense, this year...
I think Love will struggle to play hard for more than, well… 31.8 minutes per game. He works very hard on the glass and isn’t necessarily the most gifted player in terms of natural conditioning level. Provided guys like Tolliver (as you say) can give us something real off the bench, I think somewhere between 30 and 35 minutes a night for K-Love would be best for the team.
Which leads to perhaps the most-significant change to this Wolves team: it’s depth and apparent ability to withstand injuries. Two years ago, a single injury took us from an up-and-coming team to the cellar. This year, I think any player (including Love) could go down for an extended period, and the team could move on fairly well (at least “fairly well” compared to where they were with that player). Seems like we’re running 10 deep, rather than 5 or 6 (or maybe 3 or 4 is a better way of putting it.)
No doubt, we're deeper.
For example: We have at least one player on the roster, and perhaps more than one, who could legitimately start as an NBA wing. It’s like a revelation!
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I count 18 back-to-back games on our schedule.
I think this is the other scenario (the first being injuries) where we come out ahead of other teams. It’s tough to be competitive on the 2nd consecutive game day, but when we can give guys like Tolliver, Brewer, Pek (and eventually Flynn) extended burn, the talent falloff will be far less than with many other teams.
I bet we sneak up on a few good teams this season on 2nd game days.
I wish the playoffs had back-to-backs.
The NBA wants to market its stars, but the playoffs should favor deep teams sometimes too. It also would tighten the seemingly interminable playoff season some.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Right. Back-to-back games are a part of life all throughout the regular season.
And then, suddenly everything changes into a completely different animal in the postseason…
Gosh,
when we give teams scads of rest between games and call the game totally differently, somehow ‘canny veteran teams’ who play rugby out there do better. Who could have seen it coming?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
it's preseason for me too
;)
33 was the number i was going for in my head. it didn’t make it’s way down on the page. he’s their best player, he’s in his early 20s, and they need to ride him hard.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
32 minutes is one third of the game
Of course, everyone knows that.
Excuse me please.
When other team's go small...
Love at C works fine. He needs minutes, I agree. That’s why Beasely at SF, even with some bad SF match ups on D, has to happen. You need Love out there, a lot.
by ChicagoViking on Oct 5, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
Love at 35 mpg is a wonderful thing (assuming of course that he can give the effort he did yesterday throughout the game). I thought it was interesting that Pek and Koufos played some time together. Love at C will certainly help make for some fun lineups for short segments, but I think over the long run you want the lion’s share of Love’s minutes to come at PF.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
As much as I love Love
I think 27-32mpg for him is plenty. With our options this year, we don’t need him out there the entire game. We need him giving his full effort while he is in there and 35+mpg is too much to ask of Love. Very few players can do that and Love certainly isn’t one of them, but Love at quarter energy probably isn’t quite as effective as Tolliver at full energy (especially when you consider that Love regains his energy and plays better instead of the opposite while Tolliver is in). Last year you could easily say that Love was more effective than any of the substitutes (Besides Jefferson, who needed to play C) even playing at a tenth of his capabilities.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
45 players played 35+ minutes a game last season.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I think the key thing is
Getting Love mintues with quality teammates. As yesterday showed, he can do a lot of the little things when he’s got talent around him — people who can create their own shot, cut to the basket, knock down the 3, run the floor. By giving him minutes with the 1st unit instead of coming off the bench, I think he’ll be more productive than last year, even if his mintues stay the same.
The other challenge is going to be making those same teammates help Love’s defensive deficiencies. That’s where I see a problem. It will be interesting to see what happens when we paly some of the more mobile 4s in the west — Odom (when he plays the 4), Nowitski, etc. With Amare heading East, there is one fewer, but there are still a number of them out there.
Word
and I’m guessing not a single one of those players gave 100% the entire time they played.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
The same could be said
of pretty much every player in the league that plays more than 5 minutes a game.
Reviewing your sense of numbers, here...
Very few players can do that and Love certainly isn’t one of them, but Love at quarter energy probably isn’t quite as effective as Tolliver at full energy (especially when you consider that Love regains his energy and plays better instead of the opposite while Tolliver is in). Last year you could easily say that Love was more effective than any of the substitutes (Besides Jefferson, who needed to play C) even playing at a tenth of his capabilities.
Now I’m just confused. ;-) Players at “quarter energy”? Love on the floor at “a tenth” of his capabilities?
There might be a more interesting conversation here about how much really separates stars from non-stars. The difference in performance between Cherokee Parks and Alonzo Mourning: how big?
(In tennis, for example, if you can win 30% of your points, you will not win any games.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I was just saying
that Love at quarter energy is probably not going to help this team more than Tolliver, but last year, Love at a tenth of his full energy was helping the team more hurting the team less than Hollins.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
It's going to come down to team rebounding...
Can this team rebound when Love isn’t in the game? That will probably be the primary driving factor on love playing 31 minutes or 36 minutes in a game. The second question is how much efficiency does Love lose after he hits the 30 minute mark? What can Tolliver bring?
I can certainly see scenarios where Love will slot in as C primarily for his rebounding and probably as a primary or secondary facilitator in a particular set… Wayne, Wes, Martell, Beasley, Love… should be all sorts of room inside for Love to work especially against an undersized Center. Kick outs, cuts to the basket, open perimeter shots, Love drawing fouls. Love is rebounder and facilitator in this scenario, with some isolated offense.
Love isn’t a C, but in this system and with this group of guys, he can and might need to play some C in spot situations.
by Krotz the Wall on Oct 6, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Knowing their roles
The team looked hungry and well-coached. But more than anything, I’m excited that the team seems to know their roles: Ridnour setting up the offense, the ball going down to the bigs, the shooters floating to the open spots. So it doesn’t bother me that Webster and Beasley didn’t rebound much. That’s not their role. And it doesn’t bother me that the bigs or points aren’t scoring twenty points. That’s not their role.
When people know what they’re supposed to be doing, the game is easier, and when the game is easier, hopefully the (regular season) wins come.
Yep...
Looked awfully complementary out there. Will Jonny come back and drive 1-on-5? Hopefully, he gets to watch, see, and learn. Of course last year, he didn’t have many shooters or go-to guys to pass to. This year, it’s different.
It’s Flynn gone/Ridnour stays if Flynn can’t adapt. No excuses this year for not passing.
by ChicagoViking on Oct 5, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Flynn/ Ridnour battle
I’m rooting for Flynn to win the battle over Ridnour for Rubio’s backup PG. If Flynn can embrace a 6th man/scoring role and show he’s more valuable in that role as a scorer than Ridnour’s veteran presence/ steady hand that would be a great development for the team. I’m not of the opinion that Flynn turning into a good 6th man and complementing Rubio would be such a disappointment.
Best Comparison of Tolliver
I thought Zach Harper at A Wolf Among Wolves said it best about Tolliver:
Tolliver is like a really good version of Brian Cardinal. I mean that as a compliment.
Sounds about right to me
I'm hoping Tolliver = Sam Mitchell
I know he’s younger than Sam but he’s been through some of the same (D-League, etc.). Also, Mitchell did really help KG develop into a professional. Cardinal made the right plays but I don’t think he really related to a lot of the other guys on the team (it certainly didn’t translate into wins or a lot of “player development” over the season).
Now Tolliver doesn’t have the experience of Mitchell, but if he can at least push Love and Beasley and be professional and lead by example, that would be a great, great thing, considering the youth an inexperience on this team.
Good call
Sam Mitchell was a rotation player (and even a starter) because he actually produced. Tough D, good passing and competent offense. Tolliver has a different skill set, but hopefully has a high-revving motor and pushes the young(er) guys.
Ryan Gomes == Sam Mitchell
He’ll be back for the good harvest years.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
speaking out of both sides?
“If Beasley can turn into something of a gunner at the starting 3, and the trio of Webster, Johnson, and Brewer can play d and hit the 3, the Wolves could have backed themselves into a fairly stout wing rotation. "
Hmmm….only one meaningless pre-season game, but IF this rotation ends up working out, the Wolves/Kahn didn’t “back in” to anything. And IF this happens, S&P needs to come out and say Kahn was right! Just sayin’
completely disagree..
…something about a blind squirrel comes to mind. this team will probably not win more than 30 games and they’ve passed on the bpa with multiple picks and i’ll be shocked (repeat: shocked) if they actually land a big name trade/free agent with all of the cap space they’ve been pimping to season ticket holders for the past 2 years. kahn went with johnson and webster because they were athletic and long. if they happen to be good, i’d bet a large sum of money that he couldn’t explain exactly what that is…or, to flip it around, reproduce the results with any sort of consistency.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ouch!
You know, you might be right about Kahn’s ability to tell why (or why not) a given player produced well (or didn’t). But I think it misses the point – I don’t think Kahn is the head talent evaluator on this team, or even the second in command. I think Rambis and Ronzone are the primary talent evaluators and Kahn is the assimilator/decision making/fall guy, but even more than that (because I think that Kahn goes with what they say), Kahn is the contract and cap guy. In that sense he’s much more like Bill Smith with the Twins, or Rob Brzezinski (sp?) with the Vikings. Both of those guys manage the numbers and maintain flexibility on the roster and cap, but in terms of talent evaluation they rely heavily/exclusively on other people.
So, for this year at least, saying that Kahn passed on DMC isn’t correct in my mind – Rambis and Ronzone passed on DMC as well. And as far as Webster or Johnson is considered, I feel very confident that Rambis can tell you exactly why they either performed well (or didn’t), and what they need to do (or not do) to be able to perform that well again. So I’ll say it again – I predict that this year’s team will win more games than Sacramento will, and not because Kahn is such a great evaluator of talent, but because Rambis and Ronzone know what they’re looking for and Kahn is astute enough at managing the cap/assets to allow them to get the guys they want.
Lastly, if yesterday’s game was any indication of things to come, we either won’t need a ‘big name’ guy to come because that guy is already on the roster, or the style of play and success/potential of the team will make the case for us. Between Love’s between the legs bounce pass or Ridnour’s off the backboard alley-oop or our 19 point trouncing of the Lakers (ya, without Kobe, but still with Artest, Odom, and Pau playing 20 minutes), there are going to be guys around the league who are going to look at us and see Rubio waiting and they’re going to say to themselves, ‘Ya, me on the Wolves would make them a 40-50 win team’. Certainly not Carmelo, (I think he has himself more in mind), but there’s going to be a lot of appeal.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 5, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
PS - I love this
What a difference a year makes, right? This team seems way tighter than last year’s.
Lakers weren’t fully loaded, but it was nice to get victory
We know it’s only preseason. We know Andrew Bynum didn’t play and Kobe only played a little bit.
Still, we’re happy we won the game and beat the defending NBA champions. I’m happy the way the team played, I’m happy the way I played.
We played well, but we know we have to get so much better defensively. That’s going to take us over the top and tell if we’re a 20-win team or a 40-win team.
The crowd was great. There was a ton of purple and gold and everybody was chanting, ``Kobe…Kobe…Kobe." But as the game went on, we were getting more and more cheers. I think the people were excited with the way we played.
Watched some “Monday Night Football” late after tonight’s game and we get to sleep in tomorrow. Taking an afternoon train and then another boat ride for dinner. We don’t practice for the first time since we started training camp in Mankato, but it’s not really a day off. It’ll be good to hang with the guys, though, and shoot the stuff with them and see Paris. I’ve never been.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
I didn't know Vikings fans
were so into Kobe…
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
by Mplax on Oct 5, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Paris is going to ruin Kevin Love.
The second he tries that beret on, the kid will turn into a locker room lawyer.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Oct 5, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I don’t know about the previous year, but this time around the moves seem highly influenced by Rambis/Ronzone. The Webster acquisition in particular screams of Rambis…I seem to remember Rambis quotes suggesting as much, or at least his evaluation of Webster after coaching against him. Biggity’s got it right that Kahn seems to be more of the Bill Smith role.
Will they land a big time FA? Likely no, but as mentioned above, we might be a tad more appealing in the near future. And, we still have great ammo to pull off a big trade.
Exactly, biggity has it right
The personnel decisions are made by Rambis & Ronzone.
Kahn has shown a lot of people how to manage the cap, IMHO.
It’s like most of the other GMs are into barter, in effect trading baseball cards, while Kahn has moved on to a cash economy. I know he has models to follow, but the way Kahn deals vs the way McHale dealt, and the way those who support him speak (but you have to get value in return…) is a big difference.
You have to make deals to make changes, and you have to take what the market gives you. Waiting to trade a player for equal players is last century thinking.
Especially when you have Ronzone and other scouts on the payroll, you see what you want, and you make deals to get there. Or you see that there will be opportunity, and you position yourself with cap space to take advantage of undervalued player situations.
It’s like trading stocks within the constraints of the economy and what the market gives you. If you wait to trade GM for Ford, and you never see a value equivalent, you keep on holding GM until it goes bankrupt. Gotta move to a neutral position and wait for the opportunity, who knows, you may be able to pick up VW at an incredible bargain if the market gives it to you on a platter.
other than that, we have our star in Beasley, he will rock the league this year. We have our steady facilitator in Love, we have a supporting cast and a superstar in Spain. And we have Bjelly in waiting.
Of course, it all has to be proven, and I am often wrong. But I’m not gonna diss these guys because I might be proven right someday and I can say I toldja so, I am 110% behind these guys, and I am impressed by the coaches, and Kahn will be seen as a very smart GM someday.
Now let’s see the season unfold, and see who is right at the end of the year.
Agreed on Ronzone...
…the jury is still out on Rambis, and Kahn’s basketball acumen is far less than you could possibly imagine. That’s my take on the whole caboodle.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I can imagine a lot. A lot.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
What's perhaps more important...
is his hiring acumen. If Kahn can identify people who can coach and scout, and he can hire them and listen to them, he’s done his job. Some POBO’s are hired because they were great players and presumably great talent evaluators. I don’t get the impression that this is why David Kahn was hired, here. It’s for things like landing Ronzone, and working the hell out of the phones to trade Miller and Foye for Rubio. (And having the savvy (or whatever you should call it) to play the PR games with Rubio for at least two years to get him in Minnesota, already…)
That’s not to say I have complete (or any, really) confidence in Kahn as the prez. Just saying that you can’t blame him for the bad, and give him no credit for the good. He’s accountable for all of it.
Agreed witn SnP
The only thing Kahn excels at is revising history. And now that he’s built a 28 win team, there’s a strong chance that he might be around for our final opportunity to turn this thing around (before Beasley and Love are due exceptions)
I agree with most things you say, SnP
but the fact that Kahn hired these people with “basketball acumen” counts for something. He has to get credit for that. This is Kahn’s (and Rambis and Ronzone’s) team and no matter what the national narrative is he hasn’t “backed” into anything. They consciously flipped the roster in just two years and whether they win 28 or win 15 it’s their baby. It’s not like they were out there throwing money at randoms, hoping it all fit together.
I'll reply..
….with the same thing I said below: he’s a creature of opportunity. He’s not making a fool of himself at the main table but eventually the professional players are going to separate themselves from whatever it is he is doing.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I flat disagree with you, SnP
Kahn has shown he can manage what he has to manage, he has shown that he is not afraid to embarrass himself in order to get intelligence in order to make moves, and he has shown that he can make good hires and give them room to do their job.
That is what we want in a person in his position.
And it is dramatically different from McHale’s tenure. McHale had respect throughout the league, but he led the draft choices and he drafted with his gut, overruling others. He hired compliant people to help him. Result: Disaster most of the time.
Kahn has hired people who are strong enough to argue their case, and people who have enough authority in the league to go to Taylor and get Kahn dumped if they disagree with him. If Rambis walked off the job, Kahn would be gone, and Kahn knows that. But he hired the best guy available, not a yes man who was awed by a charismatic player’s professional career.
It takes guts and wisdom, as a manager, to do what Kahn has done in terms of hiring, and McHale would never have done that. It’s not that McHale was a bad person, he was just another superstar who thought about the game as a game, instead of as a management challenge. He was so out of his depth he did not know he was drowning.
Kahn has apparently studied techniques of cap management as well as people management. He is doing well.
Just my opinion, and I’m often wrong. But I’m not exactly stupid.
I guess..
….I don’t have a bad opinion of what he’s done. My beef is that I don’t think it is being done with anything resembling a reproducible formula and I think that will come back to bite him. I completely get where this team is going in terms of building around Rubio and I think it has been obvious for a while. I guess I just would like to believe that there is a bit more methodology to the madness.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I don't care
if it’s reproducible formula. If it works just this once, I’ll be plenty happy.
+1
I hear what you’re saying, SnP, but as you’ve said many times, they’re building this car for a specific driver named Ricky. It’s a huge risk, but at least it’s going to be exciting basketball (hopefully) rather than Black Hole Jeff (and I say that with all respect).
Given the situation Kahn is in with MN
We are sitting way better than before and he has made smart choices…Sure we didn’t get a star this off season but all that means is Kahn didn’t cave under the pressure of a quick fix by offering a ton a money to an above average player.
That is a very smart move…and one of many that I feel he needs more credit for.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Oct 6, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Well what's that they say about winning NBA championships?
something about (in regards to drafting the guy that gets you there), it’s better to be lucky than to be good? Our best example of this was KG – McHale rode him for about 10 years of employment. I’m excited we’re all in on Ricky. I guess if we didn’t have Ricky I’d be a whole lot more pissed about missing out on Curry and DMC, but I think Ricky is every bit the prospect those guys are, and if anything I think his superstar talent (defense and making the guys around him better) is a better fit for us. I guess that’s a little late to say now as this team is being assembled for him. I guess at the end of the day the truth remains that there’s a bona fide pulse to the Timberwolves for the first time since 2003-2004, and that’s good enough for me.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
it is definately better to have a team with upside
than last year’s team where you just looked at them and wondered how they ever were assembled in the first place.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Oct 6, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
The Jury is Out on Rambis?
Who the heck found the American guys on this team?
Ronzone is a Euro scout. You can thank Rambis for
saying that he was looking for length and athleticism and
keeping his word by finding and getting. These guys have the Rambis stamp all over them. I think Rambis got slammed
by a lot of you guys way too early when he had to run a
team of misfits that he would never have put together;
and to change the look of this club in one Summer is
absolutely fantastic. Good job, Superman!
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
they won 15 games last year
i know they had a nice first preseason game, but they still got their asses handed to them last year and rambis was completely unable to adjust to anything.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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You can't honestly think that they were trying to win last year
Right?
There’s just no way he was actually making an effort to do anything beyond teach the system and figure out who needed to say and who needed to be shown the door. I think you’ll see a lot more from Rambis, and thus the team, this year.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I think they tanked
And I think they deserve a whole lot more shit about it than they’ve received. That season was BS. The more I think about it, the more I can’t stand it. It was an absolute joke. I agree that Rambis deserves a longer look (which is why I said the jury is still out), but last year was a black eye on this franchise.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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was it really worse than having
Maddog rain 3’s on Memphis?
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 7, 2010 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Or the Casey Coaching Affair?
Nope, but it’s definitely up there with those two. I’ll never forget that damn Memphis game. We worked our way down to courtside and it was an open joke with everyone involved.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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Ricky Bobby?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
glad you're not my boss
So, no matter how well these Wolves do (and, like you, I’m not predicting huge success this year), you won’t give any credit whatsoever to Kahn/mgmt/coaching for guessing right? Wow. When you say you know that they have made the wrong decisions putting these guys together, you really believe it!
Just not Kahn
I didn’t say anything about anybody else. I really like Ronzone.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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So then why did Rambis take the head coaching gig?
Because he knew he could manipulate Kahn and get him to do what he wants? It doesn’t add up. If the guy is as big of an idiot as you claim then why does anyone want to work with him? I don’t think he’s a genius or anything, but I’ll settle for servicable after McHale. And really, being a “genius” doesn’t get you that much further in the NBA (see one Pritchard, Kevin & all those trophys Portland has). San Antonio are considered Managment Einsteins because of Tim Duncan, just like Phil Jackson is a good coach but he’s a Hall of Fame coach because of Jordan, Shaq and Kobe. It’s a players league.
It adds up..
…because you can count the number of head coaching jobs available in the NBA and Rambis didn’t get the gig in Sacramento. Here’s my thing with Kahn: no matter what he does, it isn’t on purpose or according to any sort of repeatable formula for success. He’s completely a creature of opportunity. Eventually, that’s going to be a big problem.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
McHale was opportunistic.
It almost got the Wolves to the NBA Finals, too. When it came up short and the team started to fall apart, McHale tried again but didn’t get lucky – he was hoping to find that Randy Foye was the second coming of Dwyane Wade. But then again, how many front offices around the league do the exact same thing? Pretty much every single one of them that isn’t located in New York, Miami, or Los Angeles – the only places where free agents want to play even when the team there isn’t good before they arrive.
San Antonio got real lucky with Duncan. They showed the league how successful a team can be when it scouts the international game well – they picked up Parker, Ginobili, and Scola with late draft picks (They traded Scola when his stock was nearing a high point. I’m still waiting to see what Splitter does before I call him a success). After that, they’ve drafted serviceable starters and role players with their late draft picks. Throughout it all they’ve maintained cap flexibility by keeping their core players together and refusing to overpay players. But they’ll most likely drop like a rock out of the playoff picture in the West once Duncan retires. After that they’ll be stuck in a similar situation to the Wolves where they’re hoping to get their hands on another player of the Duncan/Garnett caliber so they can climb back up the mountain once again.
It may be too early to tell, but doesn’t it seem like Kahn is setting himself up to follow that exact model? Hiring one of the best international scouts in the business to lead your scouting department seems like a good step towards making the most of our draft picks. Off-loading bad contracts and not creating new ones seems like a good step towards maintaining cap flexibility. Ellington, Hayward, and Bjelica have the look of players that will be serviceable in the rotation down the line, but time will tell. The only thing Kahn has really done that isn’t following the Spurs model is draft Tim Duncan .. er, I mean DeMarcus Cousins. Is it at all possible that the Wolves brain trust looks at Cousins and instead of seeing Duncan they see Derrick Coleman? I don’t see Kahn being a creature of opportunity. In fact, the biggest complaint that I may end up having about Kahn is that he didn’t take the opportunity to get DeMarcus Cousins when it was presented to him. So in that sense, my problem may be that he’s not opportunistic.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
I don't get your disdain.
I go along with timmuggs. I can’t see how you think Kahn is finding acorns with his eyes closed, so to speak. “Lucking” into Rubio also required digging a big area under an oak tree. Same with Beasley. There were plenty of teams that could have landed him, but the wolves did. DMC has not proven that he is more of a franchise player than wes, and as muggs explained in detail, would have upset or at least jostled the present rebuilding applecart. Martell in one game has shown that he is at least a #16 pick, for which he was traded. Kahn stated what he wanted to do in the beginning and has gone a long way towards achieving it. It seems very intentional to me. Not to mention the style of play goals and cap space improvements. Flynn over Curry is the main mistake I can see, and we don’t know about that one for sure yet. You sound a little like Simmons might be a relative, or something. :)
Agreed...
There is not way you build a team with a COMMON theme that is young, cheap and talented plus have picks and trade exemptions waiting in the wings out of pure luck and opportunity.
You can say that for one or two moves, but there needs to come a time where you say “Hey, Kahn. I think you sound dumb when you talk but over all this team is vastly improved and you have made smart moves with Rambis and Ronzo…respectable job.”
I mean just watch the preseason game again…there is no way you went from last year to that purely on luck and taking what comes your way. It takes some skill and needs to be acknowledged.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Oct 6, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Also
wasn’t Kahn trying to ‘luck’ his way into Tyreke that draft, having assumed that Rubio would’ve been taken already?
Geez, it’s getting hard keeping all these hypotheticals straight in my head about which team would be better – the Wolves with Tyreke and Curry? Tyreke and someone else? Curry and DMC? Rubio? I think I’m just going to go with what’s in front of my eyes – Beasley, Love, and Co. Go show D’Antoni he’s a dick, guys! Viva la Darkoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Oct 6, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry man that makes no sense
In a market where commodities are limited and only certain ones are available at a given time and many are essentially never available you have to be a creature of opportunity, it’s a good trait.
no way
it’s a good trait when you have fundamental underpinnings for what makes for good personnel decisions. kahn came in, heard that rubio was the bee’s knees and that they needed length and athleticism, and that constituted the entirety of his “plan”. I’m cool with the overall idea, but in terms of trusting him to be able to pick between one long and athletic prospect and another, or him being able to develop and/or oversee a meaningful oversight system over the entire process based on what makes the best modern NBA front offices tick, not so much. The guy is literally making it up as he goes along and that’s not sustainable. He just put one of the worst seasons in team history on his fanbase and he’s proven nothing to this point. The guy deserves no benefit of the doubt.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I agree for the most part
but I think the one part I will give him credit…. or at least not judge yet… is his ability to utilize his position with the cap space. I’m a little upset about a few of the things he’s missed out on, but he’s at least saying he’s looking for these deals. That’s what I like to hear. I’d rather rent out our cap space than sign Rudy Gay with it :)
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
McHale was looking for deals..
…all GMs look for deals. They literally tell their underlings to go out and talk with other underlings about possible deals, both big and small. This happens all the time. Part of my problem here is that i have no idea how to write about this above the fold. I’m fairly certain of a few things with the guy:
- He had no business getting this job.
- He knows less about professional basketball than most commenters in the Wolves interwebs.
- His treatment of reporters is ridiculous considering his backstory.
- He’s making a large chunk of what he does up as he goes along.
Despite all of that, I’m ok with the Build-Around-Ricky bit. I just don’t think he’ll come close to maximizing it in a meaningful way and no matter what he does, it will always change to reflect the most current views of whoever will buy the most tickets. That’s his “plan”.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Word
But I still think he puts more effort in than just telling his underlings to do it all. That being said, he’s given more responsibility to Ronzone recently, which is a great thing to do. Also, his cap management has been pretty good, which I assume came at Taylor’s request. Considering our team is better this year with about $20M less or so on the books? Not bad. He’s doing something at least ok. Still I agree with you, not a huge fan of the guy. But he lucked into Rubio (maybe? maybe that was bad luck? We’ll see), so that’s a plus!
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Nothing works all the time.
I get what you are saying that it seems that Kahn is playing in the dark most of the time. However, just take a look at that royal mess that has happened in Portland. That was a GM that everyone was proclaiming as a true prodigy, a genius and a model for the future of running teams. Now, that has deflated like a surprise whoopee cushion.
Or take Boston for example… that was a GM that was generally panned by the entire league and NBA press. That was a team on the very verge of losing their best player. That GM swung for the fences, threw a lot of money around, and gambled on the health and chemistry of older, big name players… and one very raw rookie PG. It worked. Suddenly the man is a genius.
Or if you want to talk about luck and things falling into a lap, we can talk about the Lakers. Kobe was forcing his way out of LA. Garnet and the Wolves picking the Celtics seemed to be the last nail in that coffin. Then, all of a sudden, the Lakers get one of the biggest gifts of all time for almost nothing… a super duper deal in Pau Gasol. Do you think the Lakers could get lucky like that again, repeat that move or make it the first time if Pau was on any other team than Memphis, with that owner?
Success in this league is so often about getting it right once and getting very lucky.
by Krotz the Wall on Oct 6, 2010 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmmmm..
I’m not arguing with you, but I think it’s funny you say that, because one of the biggest complaints about Kahn is the exact OPPOSITE of what you’re saying.
Basically, that he has a plan – a team that can run the floor, pass the ball, and shoot threes. And that he’s stuck to that plan, even if it means passing on BPA, or not getting full return on a trade.
The only thing that seems opportunistic, to me, is the beasley thing. Absolute no brainer, and just one of those perfect scenarios where he can make a lopsided trade. Other than that, everything seems to be following the plan he set out from the beginning.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Oct 6, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Rambis would have had the gig in Sac. They wouldn't ante up.
He was the front-runner.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Way I heard it was, Rambis wanted more years.
Sacramento wouldn’t pony up the extra season on the deal that Kahn felt fine about.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Welcome back to CH
where dreams have become reality :)
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Foreign Legion?
I’ve been toying with a nickname for our three centers: Darko, Pekovic, and Koufas. Anyone else have any ideas? I’m also in favor of the following cheers:
NIKOLA (as in Ricola) Pekovic
Darko ….POLO!
“Make it Wayne!” Ellington
Anything else?
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
WHOA! Just got back last night from the trip to London. A real dream come true, my first T-Wolves game!
There was indeed a LOT of purple and gold. I felt like I was the only guy wearing a T-Wolves jersey (though I saw one guy with a green Beasley jersey and on the big screen we saw a girl showing a “beat LA” sign) and people were pointing all the way to our seats …
But alas, he who laughs last …
I really liked how the way our Wolves played. I thought Beasley took over at the exact right time when the offense didn’t find a clear “good” shot they went to Beasley to put something up .. he really excelled at that.
Tolliver was a very pleasant surprise. I don’t think he’s gonna play this way every night but it’s good to know we’re that deep. Webster was also a pleasant surprise .. definitly a quality player.
I’m still having very high expectations for Pek. I think there’s absolutely no reason to give Love minutes at C. I still stand by my feeling that Darko and Pek should split those minutes.
What a nice feeling to watch a T-Wolves game that can actually shoot the ball .. and shoot it well. Kahn really got that upgrade at the wings that we sorely needed.
Too bad I didn’t get to see Bassy. Guess I’ll have to come overseas sometime to watch a home game sometime soon :)
Cool trip, didn't know you were doing that.
Awesome. You are our plenipotentiary for all European games.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
If you can make from Brussels to London...
…I’ll bet you can make to Paris as well.
Any plans for that?
Made a weekend out of it, departed early saturday and got back late tuesday. Me and my laker-fan friend both work so we got some days of but our gf’s are still in school so they had to cut classes :).
Would have loved to see the Knicks game as well but didn’t think I’d get that much vacation from work PLUS there’s really no knicks fans around here so no one to come with. With upper-level tickest being 140 euro + no way you can go without booking a hotel … that’s no real surprise.
by Wim (Belgium) on Oct 6, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
140 euros for a ticket to the game?
Holy crap, are you serious?
That’s cool that you were able to get out and see them in person, though! Did you enjoy the arena-organ rendition of Bittersweet Symphony? That kind of cracked me up..
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Yea don’t really get the ticket prices. 2 years back it was 150 euro for a lower level seat.. Guess the tickets were going so fast the prices went up really fast…
Either way, it was worth every cent. The entertainment around the court was really fun, yelling at a big plushy wolf-figure bringes a whole nother dimension to it xD
by Wim (Belgium) on Oct 6, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Loved the Wolves masks!
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
thanks for reminding me
I’m surprised no one’s talked about how good the organist was in London.
No autopsy, no foul.
NICE!
I’m happy for you. I hope to make it to one of their overseas games in the somewhat near future. Kind of a combination of vacation and TWolves viewing all roped into one.
I’m glad your first live game could be a blowout win over the defending champs (and their subs).
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
What was it like to travel to a country with a government?
;)
PS: I hope the new coalition talks get back on track.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
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