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Around SBN: Will Rhymes 'Fine' After Being Hit By Pitch And Fainting

Slow Sports Day Recap

Mp_main_wide_sidstatue1_medium

via www.minnpost.com

Not much happening in Minny today.  The big news of the day was that the Journalism Is A Joke Sid Hartman Memorial Statue was revealed today near Target Center. Other than that...not so much. 

The Wolves played a pre-season game in Paris.  Against the Knickerbockers.  It was a lively affair with better play in the first half than the haggard second. Legs were definitely tired in the 2nd. 

Star-divide

We have Four Factors:

 

 

 

Pace Eff eFG FT/FG OREB% TOr
New York 110.0 90.9 45.0% 21.1 13.7 17.3
Minnesota 96.4 44.4% 43.8 39.1 27.3

 

We have Random Comments:

 

  • Corey Brewer is going to quickly play himself out of a job with the uber-athletic, adequate defending, good ball handling, and solid shooting Martel Webster and Wes Johnson waiting at the gates.  Webster and Johnson could hold down the 2/3 with Michael Beasley all year long and I don't think that too many folks would shed a tear for Brew and his pet goat.  Well...I will.  Corey improved by miles and miles last year and he showed up to training camp this year in shape and with something to prove.  He is a genuinely good person and I hope he's just going through a rough patch.  Wrong Gator or not in the 07 Draft, I hope Brewer finds a way to stick with the Wolves as a reserve. 
  • Seriously, take a look at the OREB% and FT/FG numbers.  Yesterday, I was complaining about the Wolves' offensive rebounding numbers.  Tonight, I'm marveling at them.  Hooray preseason.  I still say that offensive rebounding will be something to keep an eye on this year with Pek and Darko in the rotation. 
  • Speaking of Pek, he's going to make an early push for Darko's minutes.  He better, because Anthony Tolliver will make a play for his. 
  • Bassy, we missed you.  17 minutes and only 2 shots! That's the type of player we've been waiting for for a long, long time.  Someday the Wolves PR folks will wake up and start selling Bassy jerseys.  
  • Each and every single Wolves starter had a negative +/- while each and every single Wolves bench player had a positive one.  
  • Where in the hell is Kosta Koufos?  The guy played well in camp but he hasn't seen a sniff of action in the two games so far. (UPDATE: Koufos saw action in the first game....apparently none of which was during the time I was watching a stream on the intertronz.) 
  • The Wolves took 46 free throws.  46 f'ing free throws.  Long time readers of this site know that there is nothing I like more than up tempo play and massive free throw differentials.  Free throws are the best thing about basketball.  Free points with the clock stopped.  Amen, brother...amen.  
  • Kevin Love is a damn good baller.  The Wolves 100% picked the right power forward to build around. 24 minutes, 9 FTAs, 14 boards, and 17 points. Yes, he is going to get his shot blocked at a relatively high clip, but he's better-than-advertised on the defensive end and he can play the hell out of his position.  
  • If Mike Beasley becomes a gunner, there is going to be a lot of good and a lot of bad.  
  • I think I'm really going to have a blog crush on Nikola Pekovic.  Dude has some serious skills.  My favorite Pek play of the night is when he looked like he was going to take it up strong in traffic and then eased out a finger roll for a layup.  Serbians with bad ass tattoos shouldn't have that much finesse.  
  • Wes Johnson isn't going to be a star, but he's going to be damn good.  Quick release, insanely athletic...the only thing he doesn't have is a killer instinct.  This became obvious today when he took a pass in transition on the left wing and instead of taking it hard at the hoop, he looked for the pass.  Had he had Mike Beasley's head with his own athleticism and length, he would have had a highlight reel dunk. 
Well folks, that about does it.  I'm off to Patrick's to watch the Twinkies.  Our Beloved Puppies are undefeated.  Enjoy it. 

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I LOVE THIS TEAM!

There is only one player I’ve been frustrated with, and thats Brewer. Everyone else has met or surpassed my expectations for them.

by Klomp on Oct 6, 2010 9:49 PM CDT reply actions  

this team

Is actually more fun to watch. Sure the 30+ turnovers are annoying and realistically we will probably be a bottom 5 team in turnovers this year. But there were stretches in the game when the T-wolves were on offense that included fluid passing and would end in a 3 pointer or an easy wide open jump shot. This is hopefully what we can expect this year when the team is on.

I don’t know about you, but it felt the Minnesota was the better team and that if these teams played each other 10 times, the wolves would win more than half of them. And according to Hollinger (I know, you can start laughing), the Knicks are predicted to win 37 games. Maybe what this means is that NY is ranked a little high and MN is ranked a little low, but I’d take a 30 win year this year and be ecstatic.

by fan44 on Oct 7, 2010 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

or the east is top heavy

and the talent drops off fast while the west is a bit deeper with only the Lakers being true contenders giving NY an easier schedule.

by zebano on Oct 7, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brewer has absolutely no place on this team

It’s the Wolves’ job to develop other team’s disappointing lottery picks, not their own.

by dropstep on Oct 7, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why mask the Pek Tat?

Why is Pek wearing the shooting sleeve over his marvelous tat?

What’s the story behind that?

Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.

by Flagrant on Oct 6, 2010 10:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Did you see the movie about Texas Western? (blanking on the name)

Coach Haskins said to hold back the dunks until the tournament. I think Rambis is having that mentality. We will release the warrior to claim the skulls when it is needed. Maybe we weren’t the only ones holding something back in the London game.

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Oct 6, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing he wears that sleeve

for the same reason Shaq does, whatever that is.

Also it’s probably easier to plead your case with the refs if they’re not eye level with a pile of human skulls.

No autopsy, no foul.

by TMiss on Oct 7, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think

those sleeves are similar to the Zensah sleeves you see a lot of guys wearing on their calves. They’re just compression sleeves. The scientific research is unclear whether or not they actually enhance performance, however they have been proven to decrease recovery time for normal aches and pains. I know a lot of runners wear them because they just feel more comfortable, more stable. My guess is that NBA players wear them for the same reasons.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

unless you're a Yankees fan*

*There were no Twins in 1960 when I started following baseball.

No autopsy, no foul.

by TMiss on Oct 7, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kindasorta

Did you have any allegiance issues when the Senators became the MN Twins?

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, because I was living in Iowa

and by then I’d heard some of the jokes Minnesotans tell about Iowans.

Is there any team you ever rooted for and then abandoned? I don’t follow the Oakland Raiders anymore, but that’s because I gave up on the NFL, not the Raiders.

No autopsy, no foul.

by TMiss on Oct 7, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dropped the Lakers once the Wolves came to town

I’d guess there are at least a few on here who had a favorite team before expansion hit the Twin Cities and ended up dropping them.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 8, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are we going for irony

in the title? Or sarcasm? You missed the %

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 6, 2010 10:19 PM CDT reply actions  

My least favorite thing about the %:

It’s not that a percentage sign is a maddeningly arbitrary way to signify sarcasm.

It’s not that its presence alongside sarcasm that would’ve been obvious anyway makes said sarcasm less entertaining to me.

It’s that when someone is sarcastic without including it, we’ve all been semi-conditioned to look for it and not give benefit of the doubt where it would otherwise be due, causing us now to have to ask “Did you forget the %?” every time.

Nothing against you, man. You can do what you want. But I continue to hate the %.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 7, 2010 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've used it once,

Alone, as a sort of response, and it was still unsatisfying.

This is the equivalent of the ever-clever “NOT!” It’s sarcasm for the sarcasm-impaired.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 7, 2010 6:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely!

It’s symptomatic of our society’s growing difficulty in effectively communicating our thoughts and understanding the thoughts and nuances of the thoughts of others, especially in the written medium.

by Krotz the Wall on Oct 7, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I find it useful

for avoiding 20 comment chains where someone feels the need to defend against an accusation that was, in fact, sarcastic in nature instead of accusatory. There’s too much ‘well you always say this’ with ‘well you’re dumb and not listening because I actually said this, not that’ followed up by ‘well semantics aside the straight facts are blah blah blah’ and you know what? It’s a complete waste of time for most of the rest of us.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t mind the % to help clue people in to not take things so seriously because sometimes there’s a joke to be made and that’s it – you’re not trying to challenge someone to a mano a mano CH blogger deathmatch by text, know what I mean?

There’s also nothing worse than clicking on a fanpost because you see that there’s 20 or 30 new comments and getting excited because maybe people have put in some great observations and there’s a cool discussion goin’ on, only to find out (as an example) it’s Ming spouting off about what’s his name, the other great white PG in Europe and other people jumping on his case about it, etc etc.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ming? Would someone be using the "%" there?

That person appears to take himself entirely seriously.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 7, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or

His sarcasm is flying that far above our heads. :)

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 7, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm certainly not intending to be insulting.

I was implying that a thing like % is becoming increasingly necessary because people find it more and more difficult to discern intent in another person’s writing. I personally don’t use it, but then again I tend not to be sarcastic in most of my posts.

The primary problem that I have with using that symbol is that people are starting to write things that are simply mean spirited or insulting then attaching a % as if that somehow gives them a free pass. The art of sarcasm is both lost of many people and is seemingly a dying art.

by Krotz the Wall on Oct 7, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

I have started using it simply because some people don’t want to take the time to see what is really said, or they are apouting iff because they’re offended, which, in turn, they use the “sign” for sarcasm to lash out. It’s rather like the saying “Bless his/her heart” because you know the next phrase (or sometimes previous) is not complimentary in the least.

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Oct 7, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it can be useful

and is only as unsatisfying as " ; ) ", which I’ve rebelled against using for similar reasons (I’ve always thought it kills the joke). That fact is, it can be very hard to convey tone in writing, even for people who are reasonably good writers. So I think the occasional “%” is a good idea — especially when you think the non-sarcastic reading would make you sound like a total dick.

by Madison Dan on Oct 7, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I completely agree.

Occasional use when necessary to avoid sounding like a total dick is appropriate. I made a comment on the thread about the public scrimmage after someone said that they would bet a lot of money on the black team that would have been completely inappropriate if not for the % indicating I was being sarcastic. And I still feel like apologizing to ChuckD for what I said even though I was just trying to get a laugh.

Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.

by ynotsema2 on Oct 9, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait...

so was that last line sarcasm?

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 7, 2010 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

See!

You don’t need it. I lol’d.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 7, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Replace the % with [sarc]

 or [sarcasm], or /sarcasm (but gratuitious /’s sometimes mess with the html).

Brackets are very helpful when you want to insert an aside, reading instructions or snark.

No autopsy, no foul.

by TMiss on Oct 7, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Completely agreed with both of your sentiments

regarding Bassy and Brewer. I hope for the best for both of them. Both very deserving of good things.

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 6, 2010 10:23 PM CDT reply actions  

some ideas

The magic wand he uses to destroy journalistic integrity.

A PlayStation Move controller

Would appreciate this statue more if it was made of butter.

"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"

by Rasho Revolution on Oct 7, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hoot!

My wife is wondering why I’m laffing out loud.

My take; He’s bowing his head to his magic 8-ball, because he just asked it a question.

by timmuggs on Oct 7, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe that's why

Bud Grant never asked you to be the one to introduce him when he was inducted in the Hall of Fame.

by WeDraftedPooh on Oct 7, 2010 12:02 AM CDT reply actions  

save the sarcasm

I’m sure you think that your sarcasm is very clear, but running a wolves blog is not a testament to subtlety. It is all too easy to imagine sincerity in this instance. Play it straight.

by wolver on Oct 7, 2010 12:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Two people

are bothered by sarcasm in the title of a blog post? Really? You CHers really need to lighten up.

by saudagg on Oct 7, 2010 2:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's not even sarcasm, either!

A tiny touch of irony, and oooooh, you’d best stay within the lines Stop-n-Pop!

What is wrong with people? What’s in any way offensive about saying “Whoa, slow news day!”

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 7, 2010 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

There’s a pretty important distinction between irony and sarcasm that needs to become more well-known. They’re conflated a little too often for my tastes.

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's worse?

Irony and coincidence. Awful. That Alanis Morisette(?) song. Not much irony in there for a song called, “Ironic.”

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 7, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I liked you better

When instead of caustic one-liners, you made fun of Al’s mom (She’s so fat!).

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

ironic

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 8, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Brilliant

Thanks for sharing.

Love the pie chart! Would seem that the “inspiring massive threads of raging idiots on the internet to debate whether something is ironic or not” wins by a landslide.

"Silence is golden but duct tape is silver." ---Anon.

by uncle rico on Oct 8, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Venn diagrams

Sarcasm may be a form of irony, but all irony most definitely is not sarcasm.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 9, 2010 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I fully think that was her intent

It’s pretty ironic to write a song called “Ironic” that is in no way actually ironic. Giving more credence (to me) is that she purposely wrote contradicting lines like “And who would have thought, it figures”. There’s also the line where she says “And yeah, I really do think” in a way that suggests that she’s making a joke out of the song.

I’m not a huge Alanis fan (Jagged Little Pill came out when I was 8), but I think she’s too smart to mess that sort of thing up.

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

"And who would've thought... it figures"

A lot less ironic when taken in the context of the song, which is mostly about unfortunate events. “Who would have thought that would happen… but it figures.” Basically the whole song is unfortunate events and coincidental events. Mostly the former. I don’t give her as much credit as you, which I think is what it comes down to.

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 8, 2010 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're giving her

waaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. The funny thing to me is that before that song came out, I had a friend in college (I’m old) who had the exact same confusion about the meaning of “ironic”, to the point where it had become a running joke with us.

by Madison Dan on Oct 8, 2010 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

And yeah

People confusing irony and coincidence is kinda annoying. Irony is one of the world’s most misunderstood terms. I guess it’s just because I have an affinity for irony, especially my sense of humor.

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Misunderstood indeed

perhaps because there are many types of irony: you have your Socratic, your Romantic, your situational or your dramatic. Your verbal and your cosmic, I think that just about does it.

"Silence is golden but duct tape is silver." ---Anon.

by uncle rico on Oct 7, 2010 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, good list, I'm gonna save that

…for the next time I get into a discussion of irony vs coincidence vs sarcasm.

Or for the next time my wife refuses to iron my socks.

by timmuggs on Oct 8, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely. That DROVE ME CRAZY.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 8, 2010 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Said the man who needs to lighten up :-p

I don’t know if my post would qualify as anything close to being bothered. I enjoy a little sarcasm… Ok maybe more than a little… Ok so I may base most of what I say off of sarcasm.

You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...

by Mplax on Oct 7, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm ok with Beasley being a gunner

In fact, I’d encourage it. I think every good teams needs a guy who will just fearlessly shoot for better or worse. The Spurs have Ginobili. The Celtics have Pierce. The Magic have Lewis. The Suns have…their entire roster. Hell, even the Lakers….Kobe has some of the worst shot selection out there at times, he’s just so damn good it doesn’t matter.

And as for the bad…well, that’s what Love’s ridiculously high OffReb% is for.

by Oceanary on Oct 7, 2010 12:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Although I could do with less of Love trying to create his own offense

And more of Wes trying to get his

And Martell Webster is an effin pro basketball player. No doubt whatsoever that he belongs out there.

by Oceanary on Oct 7, 2010 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

The difference

All those guys have some combination of exteremely good three point percentages (Pierce, Lewis, Ginobili, Suns), the ability to get to the line often (Pierce, Kobe, Ginobili), and the threat of getting into a groove where everything they throw up goes in (Kobe, the Suns). By my count, Beasley has none of those three traits.

I’m still with you that it’s ok for now. He’s got too much talent to try to reign him in on a fairly crappy team, and there is a certain need for shot creation on every team. But Beasley really has to figure out a way to be more efficient eventually. If you score with bad efficiency, putting up a higher volume of shots just hurts the team more. I think a 10/10/10 rule (free throws, post-ups, jumpers) like they had for ’Melo could be a good way to keep him from doing too much of the bad kind of gunning.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 7, 2010 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

All those guys have some combination of exteremely good three point percentages (Pierce, Lewis, Ginobili, Suns), the ability to get to the line often (Pierce, Kobe, Ginobili), and the threat of getting into a groove where everything they throw up goes in (Kobe, the Suns). By my count, Beasley has none of those three traits.

You must have missed the first preseason game.

by zebano on Oct 7, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

But let’s see if it can become a trend.

Of the three ways (maybe there are more, but those are the three I thought of) to justify being a chucker, the “getting hot and scoring a bunch of points in a row” way is my least favorite because the guy’s team has to suffer through a bunch of nights where he leads his team in shots while shooting 40%. That’s why Kobe is so overrated. People remember the times where he’s on fire, and his team is usually good enough to win anyway on his off nights, meaning they’re quickly forgotten. “On fire Kobe” may well be the best player in the league, but “actual Kobe” has worse overall scoring efficiency than all those other guys listed and most other stars in the league.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 7, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think

Carmelo is an even better example. He and Kobe both, career wise, have averaged essentially the same minutes and same number of FGAs. As for percentages:
Kobe – .557 TS%, .488 efg%, .340 from three
Melo – .544 TS%, .478 efg%, .308 from three

Bryant also distributes the ball a lot more (incorporates his teammates more) than Melo does:
Kobe – 4.7 assists, 23.6 AST%, 31.3 USG%
Melo – 3.1 assists, 15.7 AST%, 31.1 USG%

Getting back to Beasley, I think we need to give him some time to learn when the offense will do it for him and when he needs to create for himself.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Two big differences...

between Kobe and Melo are defense and leadership. Kobe is an excellent defender, while Melo is pretty average. Kobe is an excellent leader, and it’s not clear that Melo does anything significant to encourage or demand excellence from his teammates. That helps explain the Lakers’ superiority over Denver, despite similarly-good supporting casts, in recent years.

FWIW, I’m a Melo fan, but he doesn’t really belong in a comparison with Kobe.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty ambivalent on whether he's a good leader

He’s a tireless worker and wants to win as much as anyone, and I don’t doubt that he’s got some skill at motivating and leading his teammates. But he’s done so much to sabotage teams in the past (not to mention the good teams he’s been on still getting annoyed by his grating and yelling) that I have a pretty conflicted view on his value on a teammate level.

by nja700 on Oct 7, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Carmelo is a worse example

Because part of what I wanted to convey was that the ability to get hot and start pouring in buckets is overrated as a skill if you’re not efficient overall.

Kobe is considered by many to be the best player in the league, but he’s definitely worse than LeBron, Wade, and Durant, and probably behind Dwight Howard and a healthy Chris Paul too. He jumps 6th to 1st behind, among other things, some memorable runs of difficult made baskets that aren’t a sustainable trend (as his .545 TS% can attest).

Melo is marginally worse as a scorer (was actually better last year, so that gap may have been closed already) and certainly doesn’t bring the same defense, playmaking, and intangibles that Kobe does, but he’s nonetheless appropriately rated in the public’s eyes as a fringe top 10 guy.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 8, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

And

in this public’s eye, Carmelo is not a fringe top 10 guy in the NBA. In no particular order, guys I would rank ahead of Carmelo:
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Kobe
Pau
Lebron
DWade
Nash
CP3
Deron
Duncan

In fact, I put Carmelo in the same league as guys like Bosh, Kaman, or Rudy Gay and OJ Mayo or Crawford and Joe Johnson. I think historically Carmelo has benefitted greatly from a team of other guys picking up the slack for him so that he can do one thing – chuck up shot attempts. Trading and signing for Carmelo is akin to signing Joe Johnson to a $120 million contract, in my opinion. I’d rather sign Nene to a long term deal than Carmelo.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 8, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with pretty much all of that

except for the Nene thing, but yeah, I wouldn’t put ’Melo anywhere close to the top 10.

by TimAllen on Oct 8, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Carmelo is a winner...

he’s not as good as LeBron or Kobe, but consider this:

He joined a 17-win team, immediately led them in minutes and points per game, and was third in rebounds and assists per game. They won 43 games. That’s the lowest win-total they’ve had on Melo’s watch, and they’ve won 50+ for three years running. Sure, he’s got a nice team around him, but nothing out of the ordinary for a respectable NBA team. His success in the NBA is not comparable to Kaman, Gay, Mayo, or Crawford.

by Andy G on Oct 8, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

He joined the same year that Andre Miller and Marcus Camby did (who’s combined WS was 15.7 that year). I think they may have had a little something to do with Denver’s continued success, along with keeping Nene and adding KMart and Chauncey.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 8, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Role players like Miller and Camby...

always have “something to do with” team success or failure. But, they’re mostly interchangeable and replaceable.

The prior season, Miller was doing his thing on the 27-win Clippers. Elton Brand and Lamar Odom would seemingly be a good-enough supporting cast to push for a playoff spot, if Miller was anything above average. Not the case, then.

Camby was actually on the team before Melo — for one season. He played 29 games and started 9 of them. Their winning percentage for those 29 games was essentially the same as it was for the season — terrible. He wasn’t really doing a lot in terms of helping them win ballgames. Good thing they added Melo, the next year, to completely transform the Nuggets franchise.

This is just a bullshit argument — no offense. I just get a little annoyed when the stats overtake common sense, and saying things like Jamal Crawford and Carmelo Anthony are in the same league is nonsense.

by Andy G on Oct 8, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a little harsh

Maybe it is BS, maybe not. I just don’t think that by the same token you can isolate out Carmelo as the primary reason why that team was so much better. Camby, focusing on rebounding and defense (which he did not do his first season in Denver), has made a lot of teams a lot better. Andre Miller found a perfect guy to work with in Carmelo, yes, as did Chauncey, but then again you have to admit that Carmelo had two great PGs helping him get looks in Andre and Chauncey.

To me it’s like Amare or Shawn Marion – were/are those guys amazing in part because of Nash or because they really are that amazing? Marion fell off a cliff (well, maybe a big hill) after moving away from Nash. We’ll get to see with Amare. Point is we know that Nash makes a ton of guys look amazing (see last year’s Suns). What isn’t clear to me is whether Carmelo is primary catalyst for their success or whether he’s just a really good fitting piece next to these other guys who also happen to be pretty damn good.

I mean, come on, man…do you really believe Carmelo is that big of a star? Do you really believe he’s the main reason for the Nuggets’ turnaround and continued success? Do you really put him at the same level as Kobe, Lebron, DWade, or KD, because that’s what I’m taking away from this.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 8, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW, I’m a Melo fan, but he doesn’t really belong in a comparison with Kobe.

I don’t think he’s as good as Kobe or LeBron. Just a lot better than Rudy Gay or Jamal Crawford.

He is a huge star, and very few would argue with that. Steve Nash was a two-time MVP, so I don’t think the Suns comparisons work at all with Melo. Nobody makes him a a better player, on that team. He’s a “give me the ball and get out of the way” sort of player. Similar to Kobe, in that respect, but just not as good.

by Andy G on Oct 8, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Groovy

I gotcha.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 9, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Follow 'Dre Miller's career arc sometime.

Watch closely the moment when he’s the supposed consolation prize in the A.I. trade from Philly to Denver.

Guy’s more than a role player.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 9, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is a weird way to disagree with me.

How is calling Melo “fringe top 10” an offensive enough statement that you feel the need to respond to it? And if you disagree in that assessment, why did you only name 10 guys who you think are better than he is? Doesn’t that, in fact, support my assertion that he’s somewhere between the 8th and 15th best player in the league?

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Oct 8, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya, I suppose

but that’s the thing for me – after those guys I had another 10-20 guys who I would lump in a big group with Melo. They all do some things really, really well, but they all have things they do (or as is usually the case, don’t do) that I hate. Then it becomes a ‘how you see it’ or value it type thing. For example, in my mind Carmelo is only marginally more useful to a team than Noah is, but that is informed in large part by my view that an athletic, highly gifted defensive and rebounding big can change games as consistently and reliably as any big time scorer (and is harder to come by). But that’s just me. I completely understand how guys like Carmelo or Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson have significant value in this league, but for me there are still too many questions about Carmelo to say that (despite those questions) he belongs at the top of that group of the next 10-20 guys.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 9, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I finally started to doubt this...

until the playoffs last year. When Kobe is healthy, and the chips are down, he’s still the best. Over an 82-game grind, LeBron is currently better.

That’s my take, anyway.

by Andy G on Oct 8, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I decide who is the best player like this

There’s a pick-up game. If my team wins, I live. If my team loses, I die. I have first pick. Which player am I choosing?

I’m choosing Kobe in that scenario without even hesitating.

by TimAllen on Oct 8, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

but his body is starting to break down a little bit. He has waves of brilliant play, then slumps. Usually, there are injuries involved in the slumps. He’s not broken down like Garnett, but he’s on his way. Lots of miles on those knees.

But yeah, like in the playoffs after he had that knee drained, he can turn it on like nobody else.

by Andy G on Oct 8, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well sure, he's probably on the decline

and eventually, he won’t be #1 anymore. But he was last year, at least in my opinion, and will be until I see otherwise from him.

by TimAllen on Oct 8, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

And in that same scenario

I’ll take you with my first pick, and then round out my team with random paraplegics. Or Mark Madsen. My personal sacrifice is for the good of society as a whole, and the CH board in particular.

Lace ‘em up big boy, we’re gonna go down swinging!

by dropstep on Oct 8, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, no, only the team captain dies

not the players on the team. So I guess you just committed suicide, unless you’re playing this year’s Raptors or something.

But it is definitely a feather in my cap that I’m such an annoying poster now that people want me dead.

by TimAllen on Oct 8, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I always get screwed by the fine print

I’m not sure why you’d take pride in being an annoying poster (although you do seem to relish it) but you’ve got it wrong. I took myself out for the benefit of the CH regulars. You I took out for society as a whole.

by dropstep on Oct 8, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

God, it must be terrible to have Kobe on a team

and win all those championships. What an overrated player. Terrible.

by TimAllen on Oct 7, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I’m all for keeping Beasley off the leash for a while to let him get his confidence and mojo back. Same goes for the whole team. Who cares about 30 turnovers at this point… I’m thrilled they are pushing the tempo and attempting creative passes. Eventually they will come together and the turnovers will lesson.

by Rodman99 on Oct 7, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Compared to Kevin Durant

Michael Beasley and Kevin Durant are comparable for their incredible scoring seasons as college freshman. Both entered the NBA after that lone season. Beasley joined a playoff-contending team with a Top-3 scorer in the league. He played 24.8 minutes per game, shooting 11.8 times per game. Durant played 34.6 minutes per game, shooting 17.1 times per game. After three seasons, Durant is the favorite for MVP. After two seasons, Beasley was traded for cap space.

Maybe there’s something to this… let Beasley run wild, and see if he improves over the season. Giving him the full green light (within reason, obviously) might draw out his potential as a go-to scorer and All-Star.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

In some ways, then

this is the real ‘player development’ season: we’ve got Darko needing time on the court to rediscover his offensive game, we’ve got Love getting starter’s minutes to show just exactly what he can do, we’ve got (arguably) Beasley needing some freedom and minutes to be ‘the guy’ and learn when to shoot and when not to, we’ve got Martell blossoming into a bona fide starter and Pritchslap of a trade for the Blazers (Luke Babbitt, in a blowout against the Clippers, 8 minutes, 3 points, 1 for 5 shooting, 9 in +/; and Ryan Gomes – the other part of that trade – playing 15 minutes against the Blazers for the Clips as their starting SF), we’ve got Wes showing one of the best shots we’ve seen around here in a long time and simply needing time in the NBA to figure out how to bring his other skills into play, we’ve got Jonny looking at Ridnour and Bassy and seeing how great this team can play with effective ball distributing and defense, we’ve got Pek displaying great talent and a propensity for fouls, and so on and so on.

I say give these guys some freedom to try things out and learn up until the All-Star break before trying to rein them in too much.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um, what were you watching?

Where in the hell is Kosta Koufos? The guy played well in camp but he hasn’t seen a sniff of action in the two games so far.

Koufos played 11 minutes against the Lakers. He had 5 rebounds and 0 points.

As for Wes Johnson’s “killer instinct” I would like to suggest that his hamstring is still bothering him and he is being cautious. I know he hasn’t been able to drive to the basket as well as he’d like to so far. I’m going to reserve judgment on him until later in the season when he is at full health.

by Cobra312004 on Oct 7, 2010 1:48 AM CDT reply actions  

apparently...

….none of the game where koufos got in. good catch.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Oct 7, 2010 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

The posture of the Sid statue is sweet.

It catches the odd, slouchy sort of sullenness of the guy. He’s asked his question, and now he’s focusing on the floor off to the side of the person who’s answering.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 7, 2010 7:39 AM CDT reply actions  

go easy on Sid

I’d like to think that if I somehow make it to 90, I’ll get some respect whether I deserve it or not.

No autopsy, no foul.

by TMiss on Oct 7, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's been that way his whole career.

The statue might as well be of him at 38, judging by some old Twins footage I just saw.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 8, 2010 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Koufos didn't show much

had an embarrassing moment where he got the ball too low & got
stripped by a little one, but I think the guy is worth some intense
tutoring. He’s got a head on his shoulders and does have a decent
shot. He just needs a guy to spend time with him, or go down to the
Dleague and get some PT and some good coaching.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

by BaylorWest on Oct 7, 2010 8:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Someone previously informed me

in a different thread that only rookies and second year players can be assigned to the D-League by their NBA teams.

Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.

by ynotsema2 on Oct 9, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

"The Wolves 100% picked the right power forward to build around."

I don’t know if 100% is right, and I’m not sure that we’re building around Kevin Love. If the Wolves are able to add a dynamic scorer at a non-PF position, then Love is perhaps a better pick than Al Jefferson. But if it’s a system of big, jump-shooters surrounding the perimeter, a seven-foot rim protecter at center, and a playmaking, pass-first point guard… I don’t know. Seems to me that a guy who can attract double teams down low would be a better fit than the one who gets stuffed more times than he makes a field goal.

In any case, a 4 for 16 shooting performance against Mike D’Antoni’s defense (and a pre-season game, for that matter) is an odd time to be singing the praises of any player.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 8:56 AM CDT reply actions  

I know you've always been a Jefferson man

But do you in any way pine for him when watching this team? He absolutely does not mesh with what they have been doing on the floor, and for me the change in rhythm is almost jarring when the players stop moving and clear out for a Darko post-up moment. I really don’t need to see any Jefferson iso post moves (as good as they might be) commanding the offense. And Jefferson’s highly questionable ability to pass out of the double team aside, it seems like the Wolves are getting plenty of open looks for their jump shooters through ball movement alone.

by dropstep on Oct 7, 2010 9:19 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Love v Al

Personally I’ll take Love’s rebounding, passing, and FTA drawing ability over Al’s low post game every day for this squad. Even after two preseason games you can just see what an amazing difference it makes to have two post guys who can continue ball movement – who look to continue ball movement. Love’s going to go 4-16 sometimes, but if he’s drawing 9 FTAs in the process, then that’s good enough for me. Ricky is terrific at passing too, and honestly I think we can’t have enough high quality passing on a team filled with this many shooters (and guys who go hard to the rim for tip ins – I think I’ve seen more of that these past two games then I did all of last season!).

In principle it works to have a strong low post presence who creates space for the wing guys, but if that low post presence either doesn’t reliably kick it out to those guys or simply doesn’t have the passing ability to kick it out to those guys, then what happens to your system? I love the ball movement on this team, even if we get 30 TOs from it, as it clearly is the way to get the best from everybody (this isn’t an iso team, everyone needs to help everyone else). For what we want to do, Kevin Love is a better fit than Al is (despite Al’s wonderful talents). That’s my opinion, anyways.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't know...

there are so many question marks with Jefferson and his knee. If he returns to his 2008 form, I can say with some pretty high certainty that I’d rather have him on this team than Love. He’s just such a far-better scoring option inside, and inside scoring is so vital to team success, that I’d rather have him and hope he improves as a kick-out passer. He’s young-enough that a team with Rubio, Johnson, Webster, Love, Darko, etc. could grow with Jefferson into a great team, potentially.

We’ll see, though. Maybe the Wolves will carry this pre-season excitement into a 30+ win season, and things will officially be looking up. If it’s something like 25 wins compared to Utah’s 50, I’ll probably join the national media pundits who make fun of Kahn for that trade of a potential All-Star, entering his prime, for cap space.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

Because I looked it up, though, I am going to post one stat regarding these two guys (and because I am still amazed that the Wolves seemed to look for fouls so much yesterday – I felt like I was in some bizarro world where I was watching the other team rack up FTAs and then realizing that the other team was us. Anyways, I digress…)

Career per36 FTA rate:
Big Al – 4.6 FTA, .693 FT%, 3.2 points
Love – 5.9 FTA, .801 FT%, 4.7 points (1.5 points more than Al)

I don’t know of anywhere to look this up except for going through the play by play notes, but what is the effect on the opposing team when their bigs start getting into foul trouble? NY blocked 5 of Love’s shots, sure, but consider also that Amare ended up with 4 PFs, Mozgov fouled out, Turiaf had 3 PFs, Gallinari had 3 PFs. The only big of theirs not in foul trouble (because all these guys picked up that many fouls in 21 minutes or less) was Anthony Randolph (who had 1 PF).

I guess ultimately I wish the best for Al. He’s been a good soldier for us for so long, and I really think he did everything he could to lift this franchise up and be the guy who could replace KG (which of course nobody could be). I am also happy with having Love here and giving him the chance to be the starting PF on this particular team.

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Always been a distinctive trait of Al's:

He’s a big-time post-up threat who doesn’t get to the line as much as one might expect. It’s another of the few ways in which he aligns, more or less, with Zach Randolph.

The per-36 number you mention seems at first like only a moderate difference, but when we’re looking at that we have to keep in mind that Al’s done it while putting up more shots. He’s been the focal point of an offense, and even before that with Boston he was putting up a lot of shots in his bench role.

Two years ago, for example, Al’s “usage” was 28.9%. He was the 8th-most ball-dominant player in the league that way. If you look at the list of players up that high, he, Charlie Villanueva, and Zach Randolph are the only ones with so few FTAs. Dirk Nowitski gets to the line more.

Dwight Howard’s kind of the antithesis of Al, offensively. His moves have no refinement, and he gets fouled a lot.

(Carl Landry would be another Jefferson analog in this way.)

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 7, 2010 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

For his career, Love’s FTA/FGA ration is .461, whereas for Al it is .288 (a difference of .173). Darko has a better ration (.305) that Al does, whereas Beasley has a worse one (.241).

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Part of me expects...

to be writing a similar paragraph to your final one, about Love, in the next year or so. If the Wolves struggle this year (and despite a strong start to the pre-season, I expect this to happen) they will look (as they always do) to improve their starting lineup, in the draft.

They won’t look to point guard, with Rubio’s situation. They won’t look to the wing, if Wes Johnson and Michael Beasley have decent years as new TWolves. Next year’s draft is power forward-heavy in the Top 6. If the BPA is a power forward, and Love’s 3 years have averaged 20 or so wins, I won’t be surprised if things go in a different direction, there. This is particularly likely when you factor in his obvious frustration with this franchise, evidenced in many of his public remarks.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Although lately

Love’s been talking about how tight the team, how much he’s really enjoying everything going on here. Probably doesn’t hurt that Rambis is playing him a lot, running a lot of things through him, and putting him back in when the team needs a pick-me-up (at least that what he did yesterday against the Knicks if I recall correctly).

"Styx might be the mullet of bands."

by biggity2bit on Oct 7, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure...

I just think that’ll change if we’re in the bottom three of the league, again. He’ll see his career in Minnesota going nowhere, and Minnesota will see a roster that needs more significant change.

by Andy G on Oct 7, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Low probability event, IMHO.

But then I’m a glass half full guy, or maybe 3/4

by timmuggs on Oct 8, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Next year's draft is going to be bad.

Unless the CBA’s been magically resolved before the 11th hour, no NCAA player who has a reasonable choice is going to declare.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Oct 9, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fairly impressed

I realize it is only preseason but I like what I’m seeing from the Wolves early on. The Rambis strategy I was told involved a lot of movement and passing that would lead to open shots and mismatches. What have I seen? So far, I have seen a lot of movement and passing that has created many open shots and mismatches.

Is it just me or does 15-26 from 3-point land (even in preseason) seem really good? Not only are they doing a good job getting to the free throw line, but they’re hitting 3/4 of the shots from the stripe. I suppose the turnovers in the Knicks game is the problem with a high-tempo, running, passing team when they have a bad day but I’m really looking forward to the season to see how things work out when the games start to count, I’m more interested than I have been since we picked up Sprewell and Cassell.

by newfrickinshow on Oct 9, 2010 1:13 PM CDT reply actions  

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