Untapped Potential
OK, there's a fairly large elephant in 600 First Avenue right now. With David Kahn only talking to the national media about the untapped potential of his big off-season free agent signing, and with the Wolves playing entertaining and competitive ball for the 4th straight game, Darko Milicic is playing some mind-numbingly awful basketball. For the second straight tilt, he was pulled with no real center to back him up while logging only 20 minutes. From bad passes to terrible shots to ok defense to whatever other aspect of the game you can think of, Darko is stinking it up right now.
No matter how he may be affecting the team on the defensive end of the court, Darko's main damage is coming on offense, where he has a 72 ORtg and negative win shares. This is especially damning for a certain someone who said something about manna from heaven and passing like Vlade. Darko has a .301 efg, a 12 reb%, and he's turning it over on nearly 20% of his used possessions. He's a train wreck right now and now that the Wolves are actually in close games, it matters...a lot.
The Wolves lost to the Hawks with 4 of their starters and their two top reserves having a neutral or positive +/-. Their downfall came in the minutes given to the woefully ineffective Darko and the fallout of having a starting player push 28 minutes to bench players and out-of-position teammates. It really is impossible to overstate just how poorly Darko played against the Hawks and it is amazing that he was given a 20 minute leash.
Moving beyond a single player, we probably aren't going to see too many Wolves loses this year when their eFG is over 52%:
Pace Eff eFG FT/FG OREB% TOr
Minnesota 97.0 108.2 52.6% 29.5 32.4 21.6
Atlanta 114.4 48.1% 42.5 35.7 15.5
This is especially amazing when you consider that outside of the aforementioned 6 guys who punched their weight, the Wolves scrub patrol went 3-15 from the field. This was probably the first game where fans can look at the action and legitimately say that a full and healthy Wolves roster would have made a difference.
You'll also notice that the Wolves were uncharacteristically outdone on the offensive boards. A lot of this credit goes to the active Josh Smith and Al Horford. Kevin Love's 31/31 effort got a lot of attention across the league and it will be interesting to see how hard opponents bring it against him on the glass on a night-in/night-out basis. Against the Hawks, Love had the undivided attention of both Smith and Horford, and with Michael Beasley out for too much of the tilt with foul trouble, and with Darko being MIA, Love was left to fend for himself...and he damn near made it work.
Speaking of Love, we have always referred to him as an upper-level glue guy whose worth and value will correspond with the level of play of his teammates. He's not a go-to guy. He's not a guy you can count on for 1-on-1 breakdowns. The guy fills in the cracks like very few others and that's why he's so amazingly valuable. Against the Hawks, Love too often found himself in situations where he had to break down the opponent all by himself. Part of the reason for this was that the Wolves have 5 guys back in the Target Center training room. Part of it is that Mike Beasley was in early foul trouble. Part of it is that Kurt Rambis seems to think it is ok for the Wolves to run out a lineup without one of their two best players in it. Whatever the case, Love can fend for himself on the boards, but not 1-on-1 in a half court setting. The sad thing here is that the team's options were rather limited. Does he try and take his man off the dribble or does he pass to Darko? Does he look for all of the cutting wingme...never mind, those things are as rare as the Dodo in this offense. The team's limited options led to Love trying to do too damn much on offense and that led to blocked shots and some very nice hustle plays by guys like Smith and Horford. It also underscored just how much this team needs Mike Beasley to score.
Well folks, that's about it for the initial impressions. It was nice to see a good effort from the banged-up squad. Their bench was completely overmatched and they still hung in there. It will be really interesting to see the Popcorn Game Wraps, as my initial feeling is that Kurt Rambis really blotched the 2nd half rotations. Also, why on earth do coaches bench their best players with 10 minutes to go in the 4th when they pick up their 5th foul? I'll never get this one. If they foul out or sit out, either way they miss a ton of minutes. This is especially pronounced on a team like the Wolves, where someone like Beasley is quickly becoming the straw that stirs the drink.
What say you.
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MorneauMVP " Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:17 pm
Beasley should’ve got way more touches, and KLove got absolutely torched by Horford and J Smoove
Pretty much sums up the game.
Darko and the rest don’t really matter that much because they don’t either break or make us.
I disagree.
They break us. If Darko played as well as Love today, we blow them out. Love and Beasley are consistently going to be the two biggest reasons the Wolves are in games. If their teammates were at their level, we’d be a playoff team. It’s not their fault.
Beasley and Love HAVE to improve their D
by a ton and turn down on their TOs especially on the road, where the rest of the gang can always be expected to be bad.
I continue to think
that Love’s defense has improved considerably in this three-game run. He did an extremely admirable job on Amare, possibly the most skilled face-up big man in the game. I thought today late in the game he also did a good job against Horford. The Hawks thought so as well, because when Horford had Darko guarding him he was looking for his shot almost every time. With Love, he was content to pass away. May have been exhausted though.
Josh Smith is a very tough matchup for K Love though.
by voiceofharlanspast on Nov 14, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions
Horford put in 11 in the fourth quarter today...
…pretty much all of it going against Love. So I don’t know. His defense is better, but still not that good
2 baskets.
7 points from the line, including 4 late when we were fouling to get the ball back.
Good point
Speaking of which, if the Hawks ever find a real center, Al Horford is going to be a dominant power forward. The only thing stopping him is playing 35 minutes a night out of position
Horford's a stud.
When it looked like we might get Boston’s #5 pick in the KG deal, he was the guy I was hoping would be there.
Sadly, I knew he'd be off the board by then
There was just no way Atlanta was going to mess that draft up after Marvin and Shelden Williams
I think you underestimate
Atlanta’s ability to mess up a draft. They’re a team that was drafting BPA without regard to roster composition. They had Marvin Williams rated higher than Chris Paul on their draft board so they took him even though they desperately needed a point guard, Paul had actually expressed a desire to play in Atlanta, and they already had multiple players that looked exactly like Williams (Josh Smith and Josh Childress).
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
except the one time they drafted for need over talent
they ended up with Shelden Williams! ouch.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Nov 15, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
You cannot count on capital G Greatness from Beasley and Love every night; this ain’t exactly Lebron and Wade here. They need quality contributions from others, including something less negative than what Darko is giving them.
The injuries leading to PT for guys like Hayward, Gaines, et. al. are pretty glaring in a game like this.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Whether or not you have a great player or two, you'll always need big games from the role players
I think we’re going to be getting these types of games from Beas and Love more often than not this year, I’m not worried about that.
That's all that needs to be drawn from this game
Woefully inadequate bench play all around, where Maurice Evans (old Wichita State Shocker I used to watch as a freshmen in person) reigned down holy destruction upon our scrubs. Too many minutes for scrubs, too many turnovers. Love was better against Horford and Smith tonight than a week ago. Difference was having Marvin Williams back which allowed Smith and Horford to move back to PF and C. Horford outplayed Love a week ago, although Love’s late run made it look better. Horford destroyed Darko today. Makes you wonder whether Love should have started at C today, and played most of his minutes from that position.
As chuckd said...
I like chuckd’s thoughts on rotations and matchups.
Yeah, that's about right
The guys they are forced to run out there as a second unit…ack.
I feel OK about this one. They competed. They forced a better team to play 48 minutes in their own building. I agree that you have to ride Beasley even with the fouls, especially with the lack of quality behind him.
I like that we are beginning to see some consistency from our two best players; not that they have been perfect, they aren’t perfect players. But that’s a few games in a row where they have both done what they do at a pretty good level. It isn’t enough to win every night, but it’s a start.
Frankly, I no longer know what to say about Milicic. He can’t keep going this badly.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 4:26 PM CST reply actions
He really is..
…going at a historically bad rate. It’s bad.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
And yeah..
….consistency from Love and Beasley are key….although I think we’re going to run into the issue of Beasley being a lot better at the 4. We’ll see.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
See, I don't know about that
Wes Johnson is a natural 3, and he’s playing really damn good right now. If you were to put Beas at the 4, Wes at the 3, and start Brewer at the 2, I think we’d be perfectly fine at those three spots
Problem is, Love wouldn’t be out there
I don't know..
…I can tell you that I have a fairly good guess as to how the FO wants to deal with the issue. I think Kahn wants Beasley at the 4 long term on this team.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
If you're right, and they trade Love...
breaking up this emerging Love/Beasley tandem…
No. Let’s just not go there.
How funny would it be..
…..if Kahn’s long/athletic dream ends up in Love/Jefferson territory?
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
But they don't.
Hasn’t the number one takeaway from this stretch been that Love and Beasley not only can co-exist, but also seem to enhance each other’s games and free the other up to do their thing?
Depends on how you view such things
As S-n-P said, the team has been giving out the impression that the future of this team is Beasley at the 4, which means Love is either a sixth man or traded
I don't know what else to say
Like S-n-P often says when he talks about front office dysfunction, it’s just something you’ll have to take our word on
I think I'll pass.
I’ve got to think that even if that was the idea before the season, if this type of play continues, they’ll change their mind.
I can add a bit more..
…as I really don’t like having hearsay on the site (which is why I stopped writing about stuff like this), but it has been openly talked about how a Webster/Wes/Beasley wing is something Kahn has as his base lineup and that they are going to do whatever they can to find an athletic 4/5.
I doubt a 31/31 game is going to change Kahn’s mind. Long and athletic is his goal as is removing anything that still smells like McHale.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I heard the same
but Rambis is really going to try and get Beasley and Love to be adequate defenders at 3/4. Then, a superior defending 5 would be all that is needed.
Love has physical limitations that are just going to be too tough to overcome with a dozen or so 4’s in the league. But Beasley’s issue at defending the 3’s is concentration and effort – much easier solved (I hope!). He is athletic enough to guard the vast majority (save the Melo’s and LeBron’s).
If Beasley becomes average, Love flirts with average and you get an above average 5, you just might be OK. At least that what my FO friend hopes.
first, chuck
you have to want to see it
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Nov 15, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Me too
You’ve already started seeing some rumblings about them getting an athletic big in the draft. Patric Young’s name was dropped. Keep your eye out for mentions of Perry Jones. Jan Vesley is another guy you’ll hear a lot about.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I was wondering...
How a hack like “shooter” knew who Patric Young was
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
No kidding
He just didn’t pull that name out of a hat.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Good Point Blakeley
I was wondering…
How a hack like "shooter" knew who Patric Young was
I guess it was ok for Shooter to Print that item because it wasn’t in his “Don’t Print That” or “Overheard” Sections – I always wonder how he can keep printing items that the Powers That Be (picture Monopoly Man with a monocle) clearly don’t want him to print – it says so right in the column! Also, in his “Overheard” section he’s usually just informing us of an all-state volleyball player’s college decision – couldn’t he just ask the kid’s high school directly? I Suppose Ours is not question the Shooter – He’s like Woodward and Bernstein wrapped into one – albeit on a much, much lower level.
Is just disinformation…
by Son of Gerald Green on Nov 14, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
Hmmm...
I don’t see Patric Young on any of the usual mock drafts.
Who is he?
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Florida frosh
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Patric-Young-5746/
mcdonald’s all american…very athletic. great reviews in international play.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Perry Jones will take a draft miracle for us to land
If we get that lucky, we might as well sell of an extra 10% karma and just make it Harrison Barnes
He looked really good toward the end of the EL season
last year. I haven’t seen him this year yet, but he isn’t off to a great statistical start.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
So were others
In the last few days before he withdrew from the draft, Vesely was ascending into the top 8 or so of a lot of mocks I read. That Houston was all over the idea of taking a consensus top 8 player at 14 says less about the player and more about Houston’s scouting staff perhaps being on to his talent level before other teams figured it out.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Well Beasley/Johnson/Webster
all certainly look the part. Maybe we can win an airport title.
Johnson hasn't done much of anything yet
as of yet. I think he’ll probably end up being an above average wing long term and approach average this season.
As of now, though, in the actual games we’ve seen he’s been substantially worse than an average wing so far (with the usual caveats for small sample).
Webster is no more likely to be an above average performer long term than Darko. It’s pretty telling that the same sort of analysis from the front office ended up with the same kind of decision making.
The Wolves used a lot of resources to
acquire Johnson and Webster given how their careers will likely arc out.
But, again, they certainly look the part
What's wrong with that?
If the team wants them to play a certain role, and they play it, what more is there to ask for?
Wins?
Putting a quality product forth for your fan base?
The Wolves squandered far too many scarce resources to acquire Johnson, Beasley and Flynn. Now, unless you are making some broader claim that fans can’t accurately assess a front office’s moves or don’t have a right to do so then that seems like reason enough to stop this “looks the part” means of assessing talent.
Or maybe Webster?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I don't know how much we really gave up for Webster
Babbitt and Gomes aren’t doing much of anything. Actually, in Babbitt’s case, he literally isn’t doing anything, and he doesn’t even have an injury as an excuse
Huh?
I was responding to Ailuridae about who he meant, as he had already listed Johnson.
Anderson should probably be the comp according to CH. Both him and Webster happen to be injured, too. So we’ll see I guess. He’s looked fine in very limited minutes so far.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
You're setting awfully high expectations for the youngest team in the league
And on three players with an average age of 22
We have more wins than the teams that took Wall, Turner, Cousins, Favors and Griffin in their drafts, so I’m not real sure what the big complaint is here
I expect the Wolves to use resources somewhat wisely
That’s not a high expectation for any fan to have.
usually I would just ignore comments like this, but these are so moronic,they deserve to be called out. We got Webster for a #16 pick and the right to dump Gomes’ contract. Beasley cost us two 2nd rounders. And Wes Johnson is looking like a great pick at #4.
The #4 pick was the only significant asset used and we picked up two potential all-stars and a proven rotation guy in Webster who can play two positions and has all the qualities…size, defense and shooting we were looking for.
Get a clue dude.
by DougW on Nov 14, 2010 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and, please....
don’t claim that your comments come from a “fans” perspective. You’re obviously some sour grapes troll, probably a Knick fan.
And substantially below average production
For a wing. Small sample size and all but through 11 games the player the Wolves took at 4 is substantially below average for an NBA wing.
by what measure?
He’s deferring to more experienced teammates and only taking good shots. He’s show impressive passing ability and he’s a solid rebounder. Oh yeah, and he has shown the defensive range to guard four positions.
All while playing shooting guard for probably the first time in his life and adjusting to a complicated offensive system.
Yeah…total bust.
The main thing here is Wes is a rookie
He’s not supposed to be good two weeks into his NBA career
DeMarcus Cousins isn’t exactly lighting the league up either (well he is, but for all the wrong reasons…) It takes time, which can be said not just for Wes, but for our team as a whole
So if we have to wait for Wes to develop
before we judge his performance than why did you wrrite:
I’d say, so far…
….Beas and Johnson are the part
If Johnson already clearly were the part he would be producing more. He’s not produced well at all yet so its tough to declare he already is the part unless you are ignoring his actual play.
He is a rookie
The best preforming Rookie after john wall
Based on what?
Obviously you are excluding Griffin but what is this possibly based on? Per game scoring?
Here’s a PER sort on rookies – has Wes at 15th behind a whole lot of players.
Insider Required
which you clearly are...
How many games have you seen Wes play? My guess is not more than one.
You’re just cherry picking stats to try to make him look bad and rile people.
Err not only have I seen all of his games this year
As I haven’t missed a game yet but I’, also a rabid CUSE fan and saw all of his games last season.
I’m not saying Wes is bad; I’m saying that anyone claiming that he’s a proven commodity isn’t looking at his actual play.
Ok
Will be the part, if you’re going to be that picky
What I’m trying to say is your attitude that he was a bad selection because he’s not performing above average is a very premature judgment. And the complaint that the FO didn’t spend wisely on Wes and Webster doesn’t hold water, because the players we would have otherwise have had aren’t performing any better
in the words of Chris Webber
Good luck. As Simmons said, Love is untradeable now. Our recent hard play is beginning to make Kahn look not moronic. Trade Love when he did something that hasn’t occurred in ‘82? When he leads the league in rebounds? No one else cares about his defensive liability or BA. We trade Love, Kahn knows he’ll be laughed out of office. So yeah, good luck.
Now is the time to trade him
He will be overvalued right now
Too early
Let him keep ringing the bell for at least a month, and then consider your options.
Personally I think Kahn will be strung up by a lynch mob if he trades Love. Love + Beasley = finally something to ENJOY again about the TWolves. It has been a long wait.
First of all, I enjoy your takes a lot, but can you go a post without saying “as SnP said?” Has to be about 40% of your posts. You don’t need to reinforce his opinion to make your point stronger.
by WallyW0rld on Nov 15, 2010 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Don't want to think about
At some point, you have to match scheme to talent and not jettison great players that don’t exactly fit your mold. If this team can’t figure out how to utilize the talents of Beasley and Love simultaneously, they are going to get fleeced by another GM.
At this point, I've got to think it would be an absolute PR nightmare
to trade Love. He’s going to get some serious positive media attention for the remainder of this year, and I can’t even fathom the Simmons/Hollinger reaction to a Love trade.
I doubt that it will be Kahn's decision to make.
1. Rambis & Ronzone outweigh Kahn in terms of talent decisions.
2. Love is not just a unique player, he is also a box office draw, so Taylor will definitely be in on any decision and have to be convinced by the Troika as well as Rob Moor that trading Love is the smart thing to do.
3. If Kahn does it on his own (and I doubt he has the authority) he would be dumped quickly.
But that’s just my view from the outside, and I’m sometimes wrong.
This is true
Love will be trades when Rubio gets here
You have to hope that over the course of the season...
the powers that be can be convinced of the viability of Love/Beasley (or at least that it’s better than anything we can get in return). I kind of hope Kahn is out of the equation completely, but in the likely event he’s not, maybe Rambone can convince him.
The screwed up 4/5 might matter less..
… if this Beasley/Love version we’re seeing is anywhere close to the real thing. If the two of them start averaging between 50-60 points together, that puts alot of pressure on the opposing players to match it. Against a few teams we could get killed, but most are sending out an offensive stiff in one of those two positions.
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
That's probably asking too much
Love consistently scoring over 20 points a game isn’t likely to happen
The other team
As S-n-P noted, he’s not a guy who can create his own shots, and that limits what he can do on offense. He’ll put up 20+ in a number of games, but doing it every night is probably not going to happen
When you look at the scoring averages from last year and see that the only big men to average over 20 points were Dirk, Bosh, Stoudemire and Zach Randolph, that kind of gives an indication of how difficult it actually is
Chris Bosh and David Lee did so as well,
but your point remains the same.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Sure it's likely
He’s at 21.6 points/36 minutes right now.
Granted, 20 points per game for Love would be an incredibly unorthodox 20, since you can’t put him in isolations or post-ups, and he’s not such a good shooter that you should really be designing plays to get him open jumpers. Nonetheless, he’s such a uniquely active player that he could (and has been, this season) produce points at a respectable rate simply by being out there for offensive possessions. 6 points on offensive put backs, 6 more on pick and pops, 4 on free throws from drawing random fouls, 3 more from getting free from his man on the perimeter for a 3, a few more fast-break points/forgotten under the basket dunks/normal shots within the offense and you’ve got your 20.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I'm not as convinced as everyone else that Beasley's destiny is at the 4
Could be, and we’ve seen some success going small as Chuck pounds on us, but he’s also been getting off to terrific starts lately while occupying the 3. I recognize that there are defensive problems with that lineup, but if we had a center who wasn’t playing like Darko, it wouldn’t be as glaring.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
I think S-n-P's point is actually more on the offensive end
Beas at the 4 has a ridiculous handles and quickness advantage most nights. He’s doing his damage when he matches up against players he’s faster than, not bigger than
We'll see
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
He's been doing his damage against everyone lately
And when he is playing the 4 the last couple of games, it’s usually against some other combo forward as opposed to really big 4’s.
by Rascal Flatts on Nov 14, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
Which just means
the coaching staff should be working on Beasley’s post-up game so he can start abusing the players he’s bigger than. It’s not like the team couldn’t have Beasley post up with Love on the other side of the block and push Darko farther away from the basket on offense. If we started doing that we may even get Darko to shoot a jump shot instead of his hook shot that hasn’t been falling all year.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Agreed
I get the sense he’s not much worse off guarding 3s as he is 4s. If we can’t keep him and Love on the floor at the same time, I don’t think we’re trying very hard.
aaaand crap
a quick check of 82 games reveals that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Beas is defending PFs better and generally playing better there. So, I’ll stick with saying I would think/hope he can play SF and PF, and really hope that the team doesn’t ditch Love because they imagine Beasley to fit better there.
Hasn't Darko's defense been decent?
Nothing wrong with 2.4 blocks/game in just 23 minutes. Admittedly he’s been chewed up in some post iso situations, but it’s the quality of his help D that would affect Beasley, and to my eyes he’s been quite good there.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I've wondered this myself.
I just don’t see him getting abused start to finish on that end, and it seems like the comments on CH have been trending in that direction. I get that he’s terrible right now (and maybe forever) on offense, but I don’t know that we should allow that to color our take on both ends of the court. Maybe there are numbers to suggest otherwise, so I guess I could be convinced. But I would lean towards your position.
The most important line to me?
“Now that the Wolves are in close games, it matters… a lot.”
Love hearing that. And I am starting to think that the string of blowouts was the aberration, not the competitiveness we’re seeing now. It’ll be interesting to see how these guys respond tomorrow night.
Yep
Next 2 are big: at a struggling Bobcats, home to Clippers, because after that it’s Lakers, Thunder, Spurs.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
I think we should strive to win one of these games.
Two would mean 4 wins out of the last 5, which would be awesome of course, but at this stage I don’t think we can reasonably ask for that.
There is little I would like better than rubbing Larry Brown's nose in it.
Be interesting to see the pace of that game. The Bobcats are, right now, the slowest team in the NBA. The Wolves are rethinking the speed at which they play. Who sets the tone?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I think which group of games is the aberration
will be determined by which of Rambis’ rotation schemes is the aberration. If Rambis sticks to playing Beasley and Love more than 35 minutes per game apiece then we’ll probably remain competitive against all but a few teams. If he goes back to running the two platoons approach and splits the minutes more evenly, then we’ll probably see more of the blowouts. Although, with that being said, it may be more beneficial long term for the development of the entire roster to use the second approach. However, I’m of the opinion that learning how to pull out close games is of monumental importance for a young team; therefore, I believe we should stick to the rotation that creates the most opportunities for the Wolves to be close at the end of games.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
If you have two younger players who can keep you competitive
Why wouldn’t you play them? The whole roster is not going to develop. Wes might get a handle, Brewer might be able to finish, Darko might make a hook, but those things are maybes We know we have something good in Love and Beasley. As a fan, I want to see them playing the lion’s share of minutes out there.
by aarendsvark on Nov 15, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Here is where
The injuries may be a blessing. Shorter bench due to injury has led to more PT for the starters?
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
by Cedarpenguin on Nov 15, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
We learned two things from this game, I think
1) We badly need solid depth in the frontcourt (anyone want to start a FreeJasonThompson campaign with me?)
2) This team has a hell of a time trying to score when Beasley isn’t playing
That said, I feel pretty confident in saying that, had we been healthy, we would have won this one. Webster and Flynn are the two guys who have the ability to generate some offense without Beas, we obviously need just extra bodies at PG and C, even if they play at a thoroughly average level
I think his rebounding is fine
5.3 a game from the small forward spot is pretty good, especially when you consider how many boards he’d probably get on a team without Love.
Rebounding is the least of this team's problems
by Rascal Flatts on Nov 14, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
Our problem is just plain putting it in the basket.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Oh, and since 2000, we're the awfulest of awful shooting teams. So far this year, anyway.
The Wolves’ current shooting percentage would make them the worst shooting team of the last couple of decades. Nobody has ever finished a season shooting less than .409.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
(Oops. Worst since 1990. The .409 figure is second-lowest since 2000. But whatever. The Wolves shoot badly.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
The inside mark...
..is the crazy part. They are shooting less than 30% from in close. That’s unheard of.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Darko and Love, man...
….not good
And Beas didn’t help much either against the Kings or Knicks. Although he killed it from in close today
Wow
I knew they were bad, but didn’t realize just how bad. Thanks, feral (don’t worry, I’m not shooting the messenger)
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
+1
I would love to have Thompson on this team. Plus, getting Flynn back would be a big help if they have him come off the bench and allow him to be the Vinnie “Microwave” Johnson 2.0 guard he seems to be.
Me too
But who would the Kings take for him? And isn’t our PF rotation just as crowded as Sacramento’s?
That's a good point...
Not sure who they’d ask for, but perhaps they’d take Pek and Wellington – a backup center and a “shooter” to balance the floor for Evans. Or maybe the FO is going to start hitting the phones on multiple team trades – Denver’s gonna have to deal with Melo, Miami is gonna have to get a bigger 4/5, etc.
No No No
You don’t trade your de facto best center on the team for a fourth competent PF. Jason Thompson is a power forward. Depth is not an issue there. We should barely be playing Tolliver as it is.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I never really got the Darko signing.
I wanted him back but 4 years and 20 million? Especially when we were bidding against Europe. I still think his D is OK and he’s a decent passer but his shots are absolutely killing us.
3 years, 15 million guaranteed
(sorry, this is a real pet peeve of mine – every time someone wants to quote it being a bad signing they use the 4/20 numbers, not the 3/15 guaranteed numbers)
I agree 1000000++++
They use the bigger number to slam Kahn
Europe money is decent too
Especially when you consider all the taxes those guys have to pay to play in the states. Darko may have “netted” similar money over there.
If it's a pet peeve,
then be sure to mention that in the fourth year $1M of his $5M salary is guaranteed.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Wasn't aware, I will join you in correcting folks.
Still, I would’ve been happier with a two year deal.
by waldo11teen on Nov 15, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
mmmm. Pretty good practice squad here.
W. Ellington DNP – Left Thigh Contusion
J. Flynn DNP – Inactive
N. Pekovic DNP – Left Sprained Ankle
L. Ridnour DNP – Inactive
M. Webster DNP – Inactive
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
When we improve enough to win 1-2 on the road, and 2-3 at home, we'll be doing pretty good.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
SnP
any synergy input as to where Darko’s shots are coming from? As much as 82games helps me, it looks like Darko is shooting .237 eFG on close shots and 44% of those are assisted (does that count misses that would have been assists if they were made?). I’m guessing he’s shooting about around 50% on those assisted shots and 5% on the 56% of unassisted shots, but I can’t be too sure. Does synergy have any sort of stat for this?
I’d rather see him play within the offense right now than try to create his own unless everything else breaks down.
I love his hookshot and have been saying for a while that that shot is the key to his success, but he needs to learn it in practice and blowouts before he uses it in close games.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
He is playing within the offense.
If you watch the Lakers run the triangle, you’ll see how this is true. They pass the ball into Gasol in the post, then the two other guys on that side of the court cut off of the pass. If Gasol doesn’t pass to either of those guys off of the cuts, then he has an iso situation on the post up and he goes to work creating his own shot there. If they eventually bring a second man to double, then he moves the ball to the open man.
When I see Darko putting up his hook shot it is usually coming from a similar set of circumstances. Granted, there have been a few times he should have passed it to one of the cutters, but whatever, that sort of thing happens. When it starts happening less we’ll be a better team because of it. If you were the coach of the other team, wouldn’t you tell your players to stick with their assignments and never double on Darko so as to encourage him to take as many of the Wolves’ shots as possible? Especially when he’s shooting so poorly.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Prediction:
Pek will be starting soon after he returns to play.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Very unlikely
He and Darko are ying and yang. What we’d gain on offense, we’d lose on defense, and after a week we’d all be wondering why the Wolves give up 120 every night
Darko defense
don’t think so…
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
108 points/100 with him on the court
115/100 with him off it
His offense is beyond terrible right now, but he’s still making a big impact defensively
Compared to what?
It’s moronic to avoid comparables when making such statement.
Need to get production out of the 5. Darko’s defense, for what it is, fails to compensate.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Compared to...
Pekovic: 120per100 on the court, 108per100 off it
Koufos: 113per100 on the court, 111per100 off it
Love: 114per100 on the court, 108per100 off it
see note below
there are 5 on the floor at one time.
In other words, your stats are funky and inconclusive.
Nice try tho
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
That's the problem using stats
to make your case. Missing are the following:
- the entire unit on the floor
- the entire opposing unit on the floor
- Pek is in his 9th game in NBA
- Darko has seven years experience in NBA (repeated failure)
I’m more willing to give Pek the time he needs to get acclimated to the NBA game. He already produces more in 13 mpg than Darko in 20 mpg.
So what if Darko averages 2.3 blocks per game, his shooting percentage effectively turns the ball over much more than that.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
You're preaching to the choir here
I’m just telling you what the numbers say. I think by any measure…visual or numerical….it’s obvious Darko has Pek beat on the defensive end
That's still not the point
Darko does more damage on the floor than his modest defense can compensate for. But Pek net/net is better on the floor in his 9th game in the NBA.
Darko needs to be talked off the ledge every time he misses a shot. The guy is a head case. I’m not willing to let him try to shoot his way out of it, because he is his own worse enemy.
I’d rather go with potential at this point. Start Pek, give him some minutes.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Well for one...
….you’re only going to get 20 minutes from Pek anyway before he fouls out. So there’s the first problem
And in the end, you still have to be able to defend the floor. It’s the same thing we wne tover and over last year with Jefferson at center. No matter how much he scored, we couldn’t get around his terrible defense
If you’re really set on starting a guy who will score and defend at least at levels that won’t hurt the team, then you should be talking about Tolliver, not Pek
Again, a relatively small sample size
Most people are not going to project a player’s viability over a 117 minute stint in the NBA.
The Euro game is different in that it is more physical. Pek has acknowledged that he is working to acclimate himself to the NBA style of play.
But even in so doing, you have to acknowledge he is already more offensively proficient than Darko. And, guess what, with more minutes he will improve even further (past Darko).
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
What about
The second unit? At least Pek can create offense when the starters sit, if he becomes a starter then you have Darko in there TRYING to create offense with our second unit, and that’s more of a challenge right now.
The biggest benefit I see to swapping Darko/Pek is that Darko might get his confidence up more playing against easier competition (in the opponent’s second unit).
Any word, if that hook shot has been falling in practice?
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
by Cedarpenguin on Nov 15, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
It's also moronic to isolate one player
when you have five on the floor with Pek.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Even if Pek starts
he’s only going to be playing 12-15 minutes a game anyway. If he can learn to avoid getting into foul trouble then he’ll start getting more minutes. The trouble with starting Pek now is that he’ll need to be replaced quickly because of foul trouble. It makes more sense to bring him off the bench when the starter needs a rest because otherwise the guy that would be starting instead of Pek will have to play the last 8 minutes of every quarter to prevent Pek from fouling out. I’d rather have the starter play 6 minutes at the beginning of the quarter and 2 minutes at the end of the quarter, with Pek filling in for 3 or 4 minutes in the middle, because it will keep the starter’s legs fresher.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
orlando
he isn’t coming to the US
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
That Spanish weather is too grand. I spent 2 years on that coast.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
and all we have is Mavrokefalides, Henk Norel, and that Brazilian guy.
can’t be worse than Darko, can they?
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Here are where Darko's shots are coming from:
(From Synergy)
Post up: 54.5% of his shots
Cut: 11.8%
OReb: 13.6%
Everything else is odds and ends under 5 attempts. He is shooting 13% from the field on post ups with 0.25 ppp. Yes, that’s really, really bad.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Wonder what's going on with him
He’s a career 45% shooter, which isn’t great, but isn’t terrible either. His offense has just fallen off the face of the planet this year
Nope
He’s likely always been really really bad on post-ups but probably not historically awful. In the past however, no team was foolhardy enough to run a significant portion of their offense through him so he had fewer post ups as a percentage of overall possessions.
Even last year though, he was attempting the same number of shots
And hitting nearly 50% of them. It’s more than just an expanded role he doesn’t fit into. Something else is going on
Well you would certainly understand the Darko Dimension better than me
But both my observations before this year and every number that could be produced agreed that Darko was really bad offensively. I doubt he’s this bad but there was nothing besides “looks the part” to indicate he was a sub-mediocre center and would likely to continue along that route.
I don't disagree he's been bad
Just not this bad. This is historically bad, and even Darko’s profile doesn’t suggest he’d be like this
There is nothing in Darko's history to suggest that running an NBA offense through him
makes any sense whatsoever. Nothing. Not one thing.
And the front office decided that it was a wise decision. This was a known entity before the off-season started.
But Khanbis swore they saw something that everyone else missed. It wasn’t there. Many fans agreed with such a fundamentally flawed and frankly superstitious assessment.
You wrote this
Darko has a very rare talent combination for a center: court vision, passing ability, and the basketball IQ to utilize it without micromanagement. That he can rebound, block shots, jam up a pick-and-roll, and has a sweet little hook shot is just bonus material.
and this
His final line of 12 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks, and just a single turnover in 30 minutes is exactly the kind of play the Wolves knew Darko was capable of. But more importantly, it displays the breadth of Darko’s impact on our team. He has a significant hand in every aspect of what we do….scoring, rebounding, defending, and….especially important….facilitating.
I’ll let others judge what you meant by those words. Or they can re-read the Darko piece.
Foot meet mouth
I would also add that to say there is no historical precedent for Darko’s atrocious shooting is not completely accurate. In his first two seasons he shot less than 35% from the field. To be fair, he didnt get many minutes or shots during his Pistons days but to say there is no precedent is not factually accurate.
What is also being missing is that even his FG% last year of .492 isnt very good for a center that shouldnt be shooting more than 3-4 feet from the basketball to begin with.
Role playing centers typically shoot between 55-60% for a season. Look at Perkins numbers whom I wish Darko could mold himself after (no not Vlade).
by absentmindedprof on Nov 15, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
How about
“"He’s going to own the game. Own the game. We’re going to have to build a new arena. The only thing that could destroy a kid like that is a woman."
"You can’t teach Darko’s lateral quickness or explosiveness. He needs to get a bit stronger, but not too strong, because that quickness gives him a bigger advantage in the post than more strength ever will."
"Darko reminds me of a young Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt used to do a little of everything, and I haven’t seen a big man with so much skill since Wilt."
"Darko really is one of a kind. He runs the floor, handles the ball, shoots an NBA three and plays with his back to the basket. So you can slot him at the 3, 4 or 5. Okay, a few other guys can do that too; what sets Darko apart is his toughness in the post. You’ve got to love a guy who has the footwork to spin by an opponent but still prefers to lower a shoulder and bang. Fact is, Milicic plays in attack mode at both ends of the floor. The more you push, the more he pushes back."
“He practices six hours per day with Hemofarm and performs against men nearly twice his age in front of a steady stream of NBA personnel evaluators, who have made Vrsac a regular stop. He is 7-0, 245, a lefthander with a reliable deep stroke and an impressive variety of moves that draw comparisons with Kevin Garnett’s. Milicic has averaged 23.5 minutes, 13.6 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.6 blocks for Hemofarm this season.”
Those are bad scouting reports
That are almost 8 years old. We have Darko’’s intervening actual career to indicate who he is and likely will continue to be: a sub-mediocre center.
People can continue to keep on convincing themselves that they see something in players that isn’t there. Maybe the front office will hire them to scout.
You just said
“There is nothing in Darko’s history to suggest that running an NBA offense through him”
and I’m pointing out that there were plenty of people in Darko’s history who would’ve signed off on running an offense through him. Sure, it’s not a good idea now. But 7 years ago…
Someone's writing about Darko isn't how he played
How he played is who he is. That’s his history. Those are the empirical facts.
Now there is substantial evidence that our front office ignores empirical facts in favor of how someone fills out a suit. And it’s equally apparent that much of the fan base agrees with that means of assessing talent. The results are what they are.
It's like people on this board in July
saying that Pek will be a good low post scorer in the Al Jefferson vein. Is he like that now? No. Will he ever be? Maybe. But there is something in his history – his play in Europe – that suggests that it could be true. Just like Darko’s European performance suggested stuff about his NBA career.
I do agree that Darko isn’t worth $4 mil per season and that he’s a backup at best on an NBA team, but it’s not like he was thought of as a bum before the draft took place.
We didn't commit to him when the draft took place
But seven years later.
Maybe we should sign Michael Olowakandi to run the high post in the triangle. And you wonder why I am “so mean” ….
I think you misunderstand my point
I’m not arguing with you that Darko should be a focal point of our offense. I’m not arguing with you about signing Darko. I was only kind of objecting to your “nothing in his history” statement.
And you weren’t even really wrong. I understand what you meant. But I wanted to point out that he did have his fans and there was some basis for it.
And I do wonder why you are so mean.
Are you happy not that you picked that nit
when my initial post couldn’t have been any clearer?
And you expect other’s to be immensely charitable to your posts. Sigh
Yes..
….we do expect people to be nice, even when they disagree.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Well..
…when we get our next huge internet check to hire someone to read every comment, we’ll get right on that.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I'd love nothing more..
…than to have a free for all and I really appreciate the input. We’ve just got to the point where I’m having to axe some pretty iffy stuff and…well, I suppose I can’t get picky when I can’t possibly read it all. We’re kind of in no-man’s land in terms of how much we can police.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
It was much easier to do..
….with 300 hits a day and 1-2 fanposts a week. Not complaining, mind you, just unsure of how to deal with it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Could always promote Ming
to the CH polizia
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
A suggestion
You’ve got some readers that have been on this site forever, contribute insightful material regularly, and don’t engage in vitriol. Many of them seem to be on the site 24/7, and probably do read all the comments.
Make them your police force. See if they’ll do it for free.
I was always a fan of Britt’s “this is not a democracy” approach in his comment sections.
"I’d rather be losing to Orlando by 32, than be Indiana losing to the 76ers by 26 at halftime." -dropstep
And, again, my point to TimAllen
wasn’t about what the site allows but what he, as a person, demands from other posters in relation to his comments as compared to how he acts in relation to other commenters. Its about consistency for me.
You interjected at that point which, frankly. I find quite odd. Nether here nor there.
I don't even understand
what you just said and I don’t mean that in a mean way. I actually don’t understand it.
But I was trying to actually discuss basketball with you this time. Like I said, your overall point was correct. I wasn’t trying to prove you wrong, just add a little bit more context.
I guess that was wrong of me to do.
too many hits on the manna bong?
by davechisholm on Nov 14, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That is a definite contestant for a header
;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
He got a head full of
mush. Every time he misses he gets down on himself, has to be talked off the ledge by the coaches,
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
He just needs to get out of shape
Fat is only a little worse than muscle. Weight is weight. He looks like a lightweight out there. Start getting him on Sid so that he can start wolfing down some Murray’s steaks.
Darko Drinks
I ran into Darko at Bradstreet across from Target Center after the game on Friday.
Bradstreet is the best cocktail joint in town.
Darko ordered a beer.
Does that say something about him?
I found it weird, and thought it might say something about how Darko just doesn’t seem to fit.
The Atlanta commentators actually said something interesting today.
They said (referring to Darko) that they’ve never seen someone make such easy shots look so hard.
The thing is, I think he actually looks good when he’s shooting inside.
It just doesn’t go in.
It refuses.
I don’t get it.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Most people drink
Professional athletes included.
The only weird part is that, when offered Bradstreet’s incredible cocktail list, he’d choose a beer.
"I’d rather be losing to Orlando by 32, than be Indiana losing to the 76ers by 26 at halftime." -dropstep
Maybe his problem is that he got married.
Did not affect Kobe, but then, neither did the ring.
More on Prestes
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/paulao-prestes-1374/
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
I'm glad you brought this up.
Because I was just having this thought, today:
With Beasley and Love looking like a dynamite 3-4 (and sometimes 4-5) pairing, imagine if we had Al Jefferson at the 5, rather than Darko. Those Darko jumphooks could be Big Al jumphooks and those situations where Love is forcing post up shots could be Big Al forcing post up shots (with Love crashing the boards). We might be better than a 25-win team with hope on the horizon… we might just be a good, or at least average team, right now, with Rubio’s eventual arrival adding to our long-term hopes for contending.
The salary argument against Al is weakened if we don’t sign Darko to his contract.
I just think that Darko's awful play...
naturally leads to the “what could we have, instead?” conversation. It’s pretty much Cousins or Jefferson. We could be throwing out one of these lineups:
(Point guard seems to be by committee, due to injuries)
Wes Johnson/Martell Webster
Michael Beasley/Corey Brewer
Kevin Love/Michael Beasley
Al Jefferson/Kevin Love/Kosta Kofous
or
(PG SItuation)
Brewer/Webster
Beasley
Love/Beasley
Cousins/Love
Those front lines look so much better than when you plug Darko in at center, having watched him now for 11 games. I hope Darko figures it out, and I expect his FG% to eventually go up, but he is pretty shaky out there. At his best, he’s a non-factor on offense. That puts pressure on the other guys that I doubt they can handle with consistency. Right now, it seems like Beasley needs to play 42 minutes and take close to 30 shots for us to play in our highest gear.
It's definitely a problem
In terms of Beasley needing to score so much, the hope is the return of Flynn and Webster can take some pressure off of that
But Darko needs to get things figured out regardless
you think?
How long do you think Darko should be given? This after a history of failing and self-injurious behaviors.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I'm afraid
you’re view will count less than Rambis. Averaging 20 minutes per game is rendering a verdict. Pek’s return will further enforced that verdict.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Milicic has been playing 20-some minutes all year
His minutes aren’t going down. They’ve always been down. And Pek’s have always been even lower
I didn't get to watch the Atlanta game,
but in the Knicks game it made too much sense to start playing small ball, so we did. In that line-up Darko gets pushed to the bench. It may be that Rambis is giving Darko only 20 minutes not because he’s unhappy with his play – though that would certainly be justified – but rather because the other team is more susceptible to a small ball line-up. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic here, but the last couple of games could have something to do with our coach actually making rotation decisions with the intent on dictating the style of play in the game. It could be that Rambis has actually improved enough as a coach to do that sort of thing. I don’t know if it is what’s happening, but it seems like a possibility.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
How many threads
about the Beasley/Love/Jefferson deathmatch do you think we would have then? Don’t even want to think about it….
I agree it would be an interesting experiment, but I’m glad we moved away from it. I still think it was poor timing in that it happened when we were finally surrounding him with shooters (especially if we were planning on taking Wes over DMC), but I’m glad it happened, nonetheless.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Ha, I wasn't trying to be smart about it
I just found it amusing someone brought it up so soon. I thought we’d at least make it to Christmas first
Huh?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I think Pek needs to do double time practice to get ready for a starting role.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
After
13 × 9 games = a verdict?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Europe does not equal NBA
But this is interesting. You claim you’ve watched every game he played in Europe?
Wow, impressive!
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
My point exactly
He needs the minutes to acclimate himself to the NBA.
He can’t do that average 13 minutes over his first 9 games in the league.
Let’s go with potential rather than try to resolve the riddle that is Darko the self-injurious.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
He'd probably get some mintues too
You know, if he wasn’t nearly fouling himself right out of games after 15 minutes.
by Krotz the Wall on Nov 15, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
Hate to say this but
There have been some rumblings about acquiring Greg Oden once he returns to health. That is expected to be in December or later.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
The talent is undeniable
but it’s the history of injuries that plague him.
Most consider him a top 5 center in the NBA when healthy.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
The problem is Oden's injuries were predictable
And he’s not likely to shake them for the balance of his career. Read up on his pre-draft medical reports. Sadly, this was almost guaranteed to happen to him
Which year? %
There have been some rumblings about acquiring Greg Oden once he returns to health. That is expected to be in December or later.
Will he be the all-time biggest #1 bust?
by hoopsfan1 on Nov 14, 2010 7:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think he can even be in the running for that
Unless Kwame brown or the Kandi Man resurrect their careers.
by aarendsvark on Nov 15, 2010 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
That depends on the metric used.
If Greg Oden plays less than, say, 5 seasons worth of games in the NBA due to injury problems, then the raw numbers for his career may actually be less than those other two guys. (i.e: Oden scores less total points, collects fewer total rebounds, has fewer total blocks, etc… than the other two simply because they played in twice as many games in their careers) I feel as though that would be one (but certainly not the only) valid means of determining the biggest bust of all-time because a lack of production due to an inability to stay healthy enough to play still makes a player a bust.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
That's an injury that has ended many an NBA career (Baylor, for one)
but isn’t that also what Blake Griffin recovered from?
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
IF you eliminate weirdos
in the NBA, you’re restricting your options by 75%.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
His real problem is he's just not nearly as good as the hype said he was
He’s critically lacking in low post fundamentals. It’s Dwight Howard-esque. No matter how much anyone works with him, he’s never going to be a true #1 option, and that alone drops his potential way below what most people seem to think it is
He's only played 82 games, total.
15 points and 12 rebounds per 36 after his first 82 games seems pretty good, to me. The only time I saw him at Target Center, his low post game looked strong.
As for being a true #1 Option, you’re probably right that he’ll never be one. Whether that drops his potential “way below what most people seem to think it is,” I’m not sure. If he can become a defensive game-changer in the Garnett-Howard mold, then his potential is very, very high. That will depend on health more than anything else.
So is everyone
That’s why he might become available. And if he is, I’d suggest seeing what it would take to get him. If he ever stays healthy, he’s got as much potential at the 5 as, well, anyone since Duncan.
So
You don’t think a healthy Oden would be a “better option” than Darko?
Afterall, that is your stated criteria for saying Pek isn’t a better option. (a comparison I don’t agree with BTW).
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
And you base this on
nothing because you can’t predict the future. Sorry, but you’re making a phony argument and grasping at straws.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Actually, a lot of this was predictable for anyone who read his medical reports
That’s the real problem
I'll see if I can dig it up
But I clearly remember reading stuff from both Sam Presti and Danny Ainge that said their team doctors were extremely alarmed by Oden’s physical results. He basically had the body of a 40 year old before he ever stepped on an NBA court, and I don’t find it any coincidence that his injuries are the types that you normally don’t see in athletes until their late 30s/early 40s
None of this is
predictive.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Fine..
…then put your money down on that square. Of course none of it is predictive, yet you still try and play the odds for the best value. The guy has an injury history that is abnormal and his current team (the one with all the medical information) doesn’t want to make him The Guy even though they sunk a #1 pick into him. Again, nothing is predictive, but bet away.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Sign me up, Champ
Show me where to send the check. Afterall, a recovered Oden is ‘untapped potential’
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Isn't this Darko
Maybe everything will be different than it has been during his career.
Heck, if i’m buying the hope they sell here I might as well be ok with other people having some.
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
Big difference
Darko is a complete and repeated failure. He is a head case that cusses himself out every time he misses a shot. He needs the coaches to constantly stroke his ego before returning to the floor.
Oden has demonstrated talent. He has had successive injuries, true. But so have other renowned star performers in the NBA. Oden’s past injuries are not fatal nor are they predictive of his future in the NBA.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
As a wise man once said
None of this is predictive…yet, we still bet.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I meant, yawn in a good way
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
does that mean you're not sending the check?
;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
(In response to Flagrant's comment - Big difference)
Amar’e Stoudemire had successive injuries during his time with the Suns but still managed to return to his pre-injury form by the end of last year. So there’s reason to believe that it could happen with Oden as well. However, if medical experts have run tests on Oden and found his body to effectively be like that of a 40 year old, then his chances of recovering in the same way that Stoudemire was able to diminish considerably – 40 year old bodies don’t heal as well as 23 year old bodies do.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
No different situations
Darko has been sub-mediocre without any history of injury.
Oden has been excellent with a horrible injury history.
If I had a reason to believe that Oden could be a consistent 2300 minute plus + player for several years he is, absolutely, the first player I would use the Wolves free agent money on. That’s a huge if though.
It will be interesting...
…to see how he plays out. Marc Gasol too. He’s an RFA.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ibaka is the real prize
but I think OKC tipped their hand this off-season with not pursuing Green in any significant way.
Wonder what his value would be when he came back
consider me in the group that doesn’t see him playing more than 40 games per year for his career, but with decent production while playing.
I’d consider trading Pek and one of our mid round picks for him, but that’s about it… and even then I don’t know about it. Could be an incentive in a Love/Batum type deal to push the deal over the top somehow.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Love for Batum? No thanks from me, even if Oden was thrown in.
Batum is fairly mediocre in my opinion. I don’t think he’s any better than what we’ve already got.
I didn't mean a straight up deal
and while I know a straight up deal has its supporters, I wouldn’t want to do it. I was just wondering out loud what kind of value we could get thrown in to a trade that was based on Love and Batum.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
If Love went to the Blazers, I'm positive Aldridge would be the guy the Wolves would want in return
Which would be….well, not very good for us. Maybe if someone could nail LMA’s shoes to the paint….
I don't know..
…he could cure the homeless problem in Minneapolis. That’s always a positive.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Mega deal
LMA, Batum, and Oden for Love, Flynn, and Pek… Hopefully they think Flynn will be good ;)
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I'm not sure I'd do that deal.
Frankly, there’s not much on Portland that excites me. Even Roy, given his knee injuries, doesn’t excite me much. I think that team is going down fast.
Problematic assumption
You assume a constant rate of growth but most people agree, you improve as a player with practice and playing time – neither of which he’s had very much of. Who knows how good he “could have been” if he had not been injured. Its not a fair counter factual to base this on the limited playing time you saw when he was healthy since he was never healthy very long.
And what would t-wolves fans give right now for a “Dwight Howard-esque” center despite his offensive limitations? I would say at least our draft pick that the clippers own all over again.
by absentmindedprof on Nov 15, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know Oden's longevity
but if I’m a Blazer fan, I’d be more concerned about Roy’s.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Oh yea,
Camby has no history of knee surgery? LOL
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Another ridiculous stat
Camby has how many years in the NBA? 14
Greg Oden has how many years in the NBA? 2
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Three, actually. He missed the entire first year
but that still counts, injury wise. And Oceanary said last three years. So I’d say his stat was right on the money.
Came believe you hang on this ridiculous stat
and Tim Allen too. hahahahaha
Look at the sample size, fellas.
Camby’s medical and surgical history over 14 YEARS looks like something out of American Medical Association Index.
Meanwhile, the two surgeries over 3 YEARS looks modest in comparison.
Let’s, for the sake of argument, compare Oden’s number of games with the number of games OVER 14 YEARS that Camby was playiing recovering from hip surgery.
Rutter rubbish fellas, you’re better than that.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
If you want to go by career arcs...
….Camby has played in 75% of the possible games over his career. Oden has played in 33%
Oden has missed more games in his first three seasons than Camby did in his first six, and has had as many surgeries by the age of 22 than Camby did until the age of 28
Camby has been more healthy both in recent history and in his career as a whole than Oden. There’s no way around that
Thank you
I appreciate some stats that show the real situation.
It always seemed to me that Oden was a bad bet, your post makes it clear — he is a bad bet.
We are gonna trade real assets for someone who cannot play a whole season in his 1st three tries? Not on my dime — which is, of course, about all I’m wiling to bet.
In other Blazer knee news:
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2010/11/blazers_insider_no_surgery_for.html
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
The post-mortem on Kevin McHale's GM career looks somewhat nicer this week
1) Kevin Love looks like a potential All-Star the same week OJ Mayo is referred to as a “3rd guard” on a Championship team.
2) McHale’s fears about Brandon Roy’s knees finally come true. Too bad Randy Foye can’t even match the production of a hobbled, cartiledgeless, Brandon Roy.
DeJuan Blair has this same issue. Helps explain why he dropped so much in the draft (although I still don’t believe his drop is justified)
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
I still think you take the BPA no matter what..
….but my understanding is that the Wolves med staff looked at Roy’s reports and basically thought that he couldn’t make it 5 years in the league. Is that justifiable? I know it’s hindsight and all and I still think you take what you can from the better player, but…well, it certainly is an interesting talker.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
If we would have drafted Gay, we could have avoided this whole conundrum…
Even though we frame that draft as a choice between injury hazard Roy and undersized Foye, it’s mostly because we drafted Roy and got cute trying to maximize our position.
On the other hand, 2006 was a brutal draft both ahead and behind us…Morrison, Shelden Williams, Patrick O’Bryant, Mouhamed Sene, Carney, Pecherov, just some terrible decisions.
SnP
At that time, the Twolves were using the tier approach in drafting players. Roy and Foye were in the same tier grouping. There were no players left in a higher tier. The medical report on Roy swayed the choice. (There was a 3rd player in the tier also – not Gay – someone else – can’t remember)
You can fault the scouting reports / evaluations that put Foye in the same tier as Roy. But McHale did draft from the BPA pool.
Wish Kahn would have done the same in 2009.
For those that don't recall
McHale had the trade all lined up. It saved us salary plus we got the trade kicker for the player we really preferred.
Danke..
…I knew about the medical stuff but not the exact tier rankings. I’ve always been curious about how they viewed Gay and why he wasn’t up there. I’ve never had anyone give me a good answer about that.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Hmmm...who was that 3rd player?
The next few picks: Patrick O’Bryant, Mouhamed Sene, J.J. Redick, Hilton Armstrong, Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Cedric Simmons, Rodney Carney, Oleksiy Pecherov, Shawne Williams, Quincy Douby, Renaldo Balkman, Rajon Rondo…probably the biggest reminder that sometimes drafting 20-30 is better than 10-20.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 15, 2010 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Well, there was really only one direction it could go
He wasn’t all bad, but I still don’t miss him in the GM chair quite yet.
by aarendsvark on Nov 15, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, "career arcs"
Tell me by looking in your crystal ball the entire career of Greg Oden (past, present, and future) cause I can tell you that Camby is 37 years old and is on the final months of his career.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
The crystal ball on fractured patellas looks like a bleak future. Not a pretty injury.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
As does Camby's history of surgeries
But he seemed to overcome them. Oden wouldn’t be the only player who plays effectively in the NBA after recovering from major surgeries.
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/12/8/1190861/patella-injuries-in-nba-history
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Well, we know we need help at "C" and our options are few.
Hope somebody comes up with something. Other than that, the only option is
the Pillsbury Dough Boy at the 5, and I’m not liking that, even though I know he
can run it better than Darko. Defensively, it’s scary.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
I think we should make a push for Hibbert
He would be perfect for us. I doubt he’s available. But I think he’d look great here.
Hibbert would be fantastic here
But you’re right, it’s very unlikely Indiana would be willing to deal him
It's kind of sad, but
Darko could be much better than Hibbert if he had the desire. I just don’t know how you make a guy want it…he’s got all the tools. But he still is not in good shape and he still beats himself by getting down and letting his mistakes snowball.
All that said, he is an upper end defensive center in the current NBA and BY FAR our best option for heavy minutes at the 5.
Marc Gasol and Kendrick Perkins
I believe Gasol is restricted and Perk is unrestricted. Neither are perfect fits next to Love, but both are light years ahead of what we’ve got.
by Rascal Flatts on Nov 14, 2010 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Kendrick Perkins seems like a great fit next to Love
although with KG flying around on defense, it becomes more difficult to gauge Perkins help ability. But he seems decent and can certainly handle himself on defense at the very least.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Nov 15, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
What would have been a real nice trade
if we could have pulled it off was Jefferson for Prince and the #7 pick in last year’s draft. We would have used it to take Greg Monroe just like Detroit did, but I get the feeling he would be a better fit with this team than with Detroit so far. We could trade Prince at the deadline for something of value because two types of teams would want him: 1) contenders looking for the last piece to the puzzle; and, 2) teams interested in a $10M expiring contract. Between the two of those groups we could probably find a deal that gives us at least a mid-first round pick.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
My memory is a little hazy
But didn’t Detroit turn that one down?
by aarendsvark on Nov 15, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
We talked about it a lot
and so did some columnists, but I never saw any confirmation that the front offices actually discussed it.
To answer your question, I don't know.
I’m not sure if they talked about it. I heard some rumors of Detroit offering Prince and the #7 for Jefferson and the #4, but I’m sure if such an offer was actually made that Kahn turned it down pretty quickly.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
oh yeah: and he's got more of this than anyone:
untapped potential ;-)
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Clippers are hurting. What do they need that we have. They have Griffin.
Maybe they’d trade Kamen. He isn’t going to hurt us at Center.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
He's paid quite a bit and his production hasn't been very good this year.
I wouldn’t risk it unless they threw in a sweetener.
Kamen's FG% has dropped, but his career is 49%
A good time to grab him when his market is low & the Clips are hurting.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Kaman...blech
Not only is he really overpaid, but he is a slow footed lane clogger. Kind of the exact opposite of the athletic, shot-blocker that would work so well next to KLove.
Can’t we just make Darko:
1) lose 15 pounds
2) Dunk some of these bunnies around the hoop
3) Start giving a shit!
Yep
That simple three step list will do what the dozens of other coaches he has had throughout his career.
At some point it makes sense to bust out Ockham’s Razor and realize that it isn’t a case of desire with Darko but ability.
All this talk of trading...
… and hearing that Kahn/Ronzone aren’t really interested in keeping Love just turns my gut. These last 4 games have been really fun (we are kicking a$$ in the moral victory standings) and we can see Love and Beasley flourishing next to each other and enjoying things. It’s almost like synergy.
I’m hoping that even if 30/30 doesn’t convince that the 22/17 & 23/24 will. I know they may have some mysterious ways of looking at things, but you can’t trade away that kind of production from a youngster. Who could he get in return that wouldn’t completely suck the life out of the fan base….
…and perhaps the saving grace is that there is now one wolves player that might be able to sell Jerseys, and I can’t imagine them selling that one bit of income for the Rubio future
The only way I would trade Love is if he definitely doesn't want to stay.
Then there is no sense in holding on, if you can get fair return.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
It can't be set in stone.
While we’re lucky to get the “inside”-type insight from SnP and Oceanary re: what the FO is thinking/planning, but it’s not worth agonizing over the team trading Love at this point. If that is the idea (trading him), the better he plays (and the others, esp. Beas, play with him as a unit), the less likely it becomes. Don’t let it spoil what has otherwise been a pretty satisfying little stretch here :).
Agreed
All I heard from Tony all summer was what a great guy and player Klove is.
BTW, if they traded KLove there would be a revolt at Target Center. Even Crunch would join in.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
OTOH, if they are planning a future trade, Love's play gets us more leverage.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
In summation
1. Darko may have ‘untapped potential’ at something….
2. Pek needs to be given a chance to acclimate himself in the NBA. 117 minutes in the NBA
is still a small sample size
3. Hibbert ain’t gonna leave the Pacers
4. Camby, who I like as a player, is 37 and not the future of this franchise
5. Oden rumors are out there in the ether. Who knows what that portends
6. Kahn sure likes Darko because…he’s a lot like C-Webb or something
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
too bad
klove wouldn’t fit very well next to Brook Lopez. Because a Love for Favors deal would give Kahnbis the length and defense and athleticism they are looking for at the 5. Imagine a Favors, Beasley, Johnson, Webster, and Rubio starting 5.
I got to tell you
Ricky Rubio is in a rough patch right now. I hope he can pull out of it.
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=LFW&clubcode=BAR&seasoncode=e2010
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Hey Look, Rubio discovered drugs
At least that’s what his parents should be looking for with that drastic a change of behavior
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
He's been struggling this season
A lot of it is how they run their offense and the presence of a lot of star players that are more established on that roster. But he hasn’t generally seemed very engaged this year. He was a little better today, with 10 points and 4 assists.
He still works on defense, but he’s just been an offensive non-factor most of the time. Not a lot of mistakes, just a lack of activity.
I’ve seen 3 of the 4 EL games and a couple of the ACB games.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Seems like there's some mistakes
He’s currently sporting a 1:1 assist turnover ratio.
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
eh
not really. 9 TOs in 4 EL games. Not like there’s a rash of bad passes or anything.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
worth noting
that as mediocre as he has been, he’s still 2nd in the ACB in assists and in the top 10 in steals, so there’s that.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
To me, it looks like Rubio is bored playing over there.
What’s the price tag on his buyout? The guy needs a change. Now.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
One theory I've heard
Is that Ricky, fresh off the Turkey tournament and the preseason Lakers game is getting kind of bore with the been there done that situation. But seriously, who knows?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
One way to get Rubio over here is to introduce him to some blue-eyed
Scandinavian farm girls. Spanish can’t resist blonds. You’d never get him off the
farm after that.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Tempt him with Lutefisk
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Girls with unshaven arm pits?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Are they? My 88 year old Mom is a Swede - - - she always
shaved her armpits. Maybe the girls in MN are different. Mom is a
North Dakotan.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
OTOH, my Dad is a Norwegian whose family is from Vining, MN
and AFAIK, he never shaved his armpits.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
I'm as much of a Nets fan than a Wolves fan
And I would very very quickly welcome a Love for Favors deal. I think Nets fans would be split 50/50.
love-favors
ahh, that draft that could have been
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
HOT: Beasley has scored 42, 35 and 25 points in the past three games on 43-for-76 shooting (56.6 percent). . . . Love’s averaging 18.2 rebounds over the past six games with efforts of 12, 16, 9, 24, 31 and 17
.
Can we combine that into 1 player?
Just sayin...
D-Wade = 24 points per game average
Lebon = 21 points per game average
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
yep
I’d certainly stop watching the Wolves after supporting them for a decade, not that anyone cares.
just another casualty
in the continuing war on the fanbase
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
This is what I am mean by irrational love for love
If somebody said hey chuck we can trade b-easy to make our team better I would all for it. I have no love for any one player I just want to see the wolves win
Wha?
If it makes the team better of course you trade him. I don’t think anyone is against making the team better. It’s hard to trust Kahn to get that done, but hey, if he can, fine.
The problem is that if they wait until the end of the year, it’s another setback in terms of getting a team together; going through the whole year with Love being a central part of the team only to get rid of him doesn’t bode well.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
I agree trade him in the next month or so
or by mid season
Look at this trade
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=24tvfyr
Ack
No. why? Jordan is somewhat intriguing I guess. That does not strike me as a trade that makes the Wolves better.
What’s funny is that I was about to write a post about how my concern with what SnP and Oceanary are reporting is that while it’s fine to have a vision (long, athletic, running shooters), you have to be willing to adjust that vision to reality. If you become too besotted with your vision, and let “perfect” be the enemy of the good (which Kevin Love is), then it leads you to make bad decisions.
I was going to cite the idea that was floated this summer that the Wolves should trade Love for Anthony Randolph. Yikes. The guy simply cannot play. But he looks good in a uniform!
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
not really
they just look good in their uniforms.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 14, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions
Not going to pay that much
for a downgrade.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I just don't like it at all.
Not a single player we get in that deal has proven to be anything in the NBA yet, except Eddy Curry, and we don’t want what he has proven to be.
If we trade Love, and that’s *if*’, I want it to be for a known producer who will contribute right away. Not more young projects.
True
I say don’t trade love until we see what Webster can bring.
There are two holes on the team
2 guard and athletic big. If webster is good then there is no need to get the 2 guard.
these players are horrible chuck
nothing but washed up with a dash of potential. Love actually produces.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Nov 15, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I dont think you can say this
Most of these guys have been in nba 2-3 years. That is not washed up. These guys fit the “running team” that wolves want to become. Notice that we had to slow down our pace because love B-easy Front court was too slow to be an effective running team.
2 thumbs down
waaayyyyy down.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Same with Beasley
I don’t support teams trading away players that are rising stars in this league. Actually I don’t think any GM would do that other than Kahn. Sure, I am a Love supporter, I just think by trading Love, or Beasley for that matter, and in turn getting a player that will improve the Wolves is mimimal.
We don’t always see eye to eye chuck, but please don’t accuse me of being a disloyal fan, thank you.
+1
Now is not the time to trade them, because it looks like they might play together really well. At 22 years old, that would make an improving front court for a long time to come.
Maybe they’ll tank later or maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but if we picked Beasley #2 this year, we would be giddy with his last 3 game production. And for Love… 30/30. not much more needs to be said.
by midlife crisis on Nov 14, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I still think it's Rambis' dream for Love to be a supersub
…a true game-changer off the bench ala McHale, Havlicek, Ginobilli. In that regard, I can see why Kahn and Rambis still covet an athletic, rangy PF/C.
Untapped potential?
I think we are starting to know that Darko is what we (or others) thought he is.
I don’t know if he can switch the flip, so to speak.
The Wolves need to be thinking about a replacement at some point. Is it Pek? To early to tell. I still like drafting Wes over Cousins despite the Darko issues. But, the Wolves need to address the C in a trade/next year’s draft.
Why didn't they look at Whiteside?
I like Lazar and all, but when he was left on the board I was irked.
by aarendsvark on Nov 15, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Agree.
And I think that would have been maximizing value. Perhaps a look at Alabi too (who ended up slipping another 20 spots), but Whiteside was the pick I wanted. We can’t be too broken up with how Lazar has worked out though. He seems solid with some role player potential – even if he doesn’t have the ceiling or fit a glaring need as nicely as Whiteside does/would have.
I am with you chuck
I like love but I am not convince he gives us the best chance to win longterm. I think we are better finding rebounds and put backs from the center position and moving b-easy to the 4. That said I propose a 3 team trade with Portland and Orlando.
Portland gets: Kevin Love, and Michael Pietrus
Orlando gets: LaMarcus Aldridge, and Wayne Ellington
Wolves get: Marcin gortat, Nic Batum, and Rudy Fernandez.
Future Lineup:
1.Johnny, Luke, (Rubio)
2.Batum, Fernandez, Webster
3.Wes, Brewer. Lazar
4.Beasley, Pek
5.Gortat, Darko
This lineup seems more balanced offensively and defensively, and it fits better with the kind of team our FO wants to put on the floor.
I like your thinking
I just don’t like Rudy. Too much Diva. I would add this to your trade
Me either.
I’m not too big on Rudy either. I was thinking more along the lines that Bass has been highly productive in limited minutes for Orlando this year and they may want to keep him. What if we took Bass and kept Ellington and had Rudy going to Orlando. They might like that better anyways as Rudy is more the flex 2-guard they like.
True that
Rudy would fit it better to what they are trying to do down there. Plus I think he is better then JJ anyway
I would do this one
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=25kektj
I think Thompson might be just as good as Gortat. because Thompson has more upside and way more athletic plus he is younger.
I like Wilson’s game and we get Arron throw in.
The Knicks would pay Curry salary
I think I like the trade best for Orlando..
..but it is something I would consider. I would loathe to give up Love, but if the FO is intent on bouncing him, nice trade idea.
On a side note
Look at how many portland players would be on our roster.
Kind of reminds me of how many wolves players are now on LAC’s roster.
With Roy’s continued injury problems, would they even be willing to let those players go?
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
by Cedarpenguin on Nov 15, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
I would consider this
I was suggesting a trade of the 4th pick for Batum before the draft when there were rumors that Portland wanted to move up. That guy can play.
Still…it’s tough to give up Love and add a salary like Gortat who has no real history of significant minutes.
i dunno. Tough call. Good trade. I promise you that the Blazer fans would go nuts hating on it. Orlando adds talent, but gets softer…
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Nov 15, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Not only Portland wanting to move up...
But supposedly Minnesota offered #4 pick for Batum…and Portland said no! It was Pritchard making the call, but shows you how highly they think of Batum.
There is no way that Portland does this trade. Batum and Aldrige for Love (essentially). No chance.
Orlando on the other hand does this trade in a second.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Still a good batting average
Beasely — Good move
Wes — Good move
Ridnour — Good move
Tolliver -Good move Good move
Sessions/Bassy -
Al/Koufos — likely good
Pek — likely good
Webster — likely good
Lazar — Could be good move
Darko — We’ll see
Don't know what cross-outs are
But a lot of pretty good moves.
by ChicagoViking on Nov 15, 2010 6:15 PM CST up reply actions

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