Bad Loss
by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 27, 2010 11:15 PM CST
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PrintFirst of all, I am a fan of fantastic basketball, and the Warriors are lucky to have a player that is as fun to watch as Monta Ellis. Ellis put in a fantastic performance tonight that was on par with what Wolves fans got to see with Love's 31/31 game and Rudy Gay's dominant performance earlier in the season. It really is fantastic to see players performing at that level, even when they are on the other team. Ellis was 10-20 from the floor with 7 steals and he was everything the Warriors needed from their go-to guy.
As for the Wolves, this was a game that they absolutely needed to have. A team within the SRS rankings with home adjustment and on the 2nd night of a back-to-back. At the 1/2 they had the Warriors' best rebounder in foul trouble and they came out in the 3rd quarter stale and with little to no imagination on offense. Everything that could have been going in the Wolves favor was working at the 1/2. They withstood amazing shooting by the Warriors, Kevin Love was out-rebounding the entire opposing squad, and they were still in the lead with a far superior frontcourt at home.
Then it all fell apart. How could a similarly-talented team come out and dominate a 1/2 like the Warriors did with all of that running in the Wolves' favor? I don't have a good answer for that, but I do know that this team is starting to fall into a very bad place with an extremely tough December schedule on the horizon. I'll leave this initial recap with a comment I left a few weeks back:
The expectation is that they’ll pick up some easy wins late in the year, but they really don’t have too many games before the new year that they should win. Between December 1st and the 26th, they play 14 games with 10 of them on the road and 4 back to backs. Cleveland and Detroit are going to be about as close to must wins if they want to get above 20 this year. They’re also going to need 2-3 wins in the next 8 games. If they win 2 of the next 8, they’ll hit the crazy stretch at 4-13. Then they’re looking at a 2-3 win December and 6-27 or 7-26 on New Year’s.
If that’s the case, they will need to play .387 ball to get to 25 wins. That’s a pace unequaled since the days of Dwane Casey. If they play at a 20% clip, they get to 16 wins.
They really need to get it done in home games where the SRS spread is below 5. They can’t screw up too many more of those games if they want to get to 25.
They screwed one up tonight. There are a lot of nice individual stories on this squad but it's time that they start to put together some nice team stories. Darko and Beasley's performances have to start turning themselves into wins otherwise this team is right back where we hoped they wouldn't be: In Wittsville.
What say you?
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Time For Change...
Two things killed the Wolves tonight, 2 only
Turnovers + D. Wright
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Beasley actually cancelled out D Wright
30 points for Wright…
28/9 for Beas….
I think the turnovers and our horrible O and even more horrible D has been killing us all season long. It’s the same issue from game to game.
Beasley v. D Wright
D. Wright = 30 points
3-point percentage = .390
3-point percentage tonight = .750
PPG = 14.6
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Why did Wright get hot against us?
All he did was basically just shoot 3 after 3 after 3. If we could D up on the inside we won’t need to double so much and leave him wide open time after time.
you forgot the important word
uncontested
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Actually
Beasley had a hand up on a lot of them. They just still went in. Our perimeter D needs a lot of work, but the Warriors couldn’t freaking miss tonight.
Hand up =
nothing when running out late from the lane and off balance.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I'm thinking Wright has compromising
Pictures of Beasley from Miami… and Beasley promised him that he wouldn’t be within 10 feet of any three pt shot. I could have guarded better than him.
But I do think he does a lot of help defense. Regardless…. after the first three 3 3 pointers you stop with the help defense.
by Rodman99 on Nov 28, 2010 12:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Agree
It’s shameful really. I’ve rerun the video of the 3rd quarter where D. Wright really went off.
I love the energy Beasley brings, he’s a great talent. But you don’t run out at a 3-point shooter with your hands in your pocket, out of control, and off balance. You just don’t.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
i dont think its fair
to hold beasley responsible for what happened. nobody could have done anything to stop wright from hittin, except full deny the whole damn game.
he shot fadeaway 3s, where he didnt need to, shot flat, shot rainbows, it didnt matter. whatever he threw up there, went in. he also hit some from the top, not just the corners.
Granted, he made the shots. Props to him
But all we’re saying is that after being burned with wide open 3’s repeatedly, you put a man on him, at least get a hand in his face. He was left free to roam, repeatedly ignored by anyone wearing a Wolves uni. If that’s what is supposed to pass for defense, maybe they should review some games where the opponent actually stayed on their guy and defended him. The practice of leaving shooters all alone at the 3 point line has to stop.
Cancelled out?
So Beasley uses 31 possessions to get his 28 points while Wright uses 17 possessions to get his 30, and by your estimation the Wolves broke even?
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Turnovers
21 Wolves
10 Warriors
D. Wright
9-12 on 3-pointers
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Guards
Luke, Bassy, Ellington, W. Johnson, and Brewer had 13 of the 21 Turnovers.
They all shot collectively 9-25 (36%). The only silver lining is that we should see improvement once Flynn and Webster get back into the rotation.
Oh by the way Brewer was 0-4, no free throws, and had 3 turnovers. Solid!
Basically...
Love gives up the same number of points he scores and grabs 9 more rebounds per 48.
Beasley gives up the same rebounds he grabs, but scores 23 more points per 48.
We are shooting ourselves with Beas at the 3…maybe one of them should be the backup at the 4 so we get better defenders out there…FOR the sake of the TEAM. I can’t take another more winnable loss…my poor beer gut.
Yep
Me and you are on the same page with this idea.
I think Kahn needs to call melo’s agent and Stern to get this deal done:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=23qgwkw
Josh smith can play D at the 3 spot. Plus he is one of the best defenders in the nba.I agree with you Luke Is not a good PG. cant get players in the right spots on the floor. He looks to shoot too much IMO.
Nope.
I think losses make us a little too reactionary – knee jerk.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
In 27 mins Cory Brewer contributed nothing this game to the team.
0-4, 3 TOs, 2 PFs, 4 rebs, 1 ast, 0 stls
Actually
Corey played some very efficient defense against Ellis in the 2nd half that kept Ellis relatively quiet. We don’t need Cory to score. Right now, we need him to at least slow down one of the teams opposing wings with man on defense. That is a lot more than Wes/Wayne/Michael are doing.
I missed the first half
And plopped on my couch for the second… brutal.
Things are still shaking out. Now Darko is going to get a lot more attention… and like with most low post players, it’s very hard to get them the ball during the 4th quarter. We need to clean up our offense. That was brutal.
We need Flynn, Bassy& Webster. Ridnour is going to put me in a hospital.
by Rodman99 on Nov 28, 2010 12:22 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Darko was SWARMED each time he got the ball down low
And that was when GSW’s weren’t stealing the ball during post entry passes. He seemed to be their focus on defense tonight, which I guess is a compliment to him. He needs to adjust, as does the rest of the team. Bad loss indeed, but when the 4-5th best guy on team goes 9-9 on threes it’s tough to win.
It's as much his fault for not learning his lesson against SAS.
Whenever a big guy posts up, there should NEVER be a reason to take more than 2-3 dribbles. It seems, he’s trying to get 6-7 dribbles every time to create wiggle room for an easier shot. Put up 1-2 dribbles and shoot, big guy…
by DarkoMilicic on Nov 28, 2010 3:00 AM CST up reply actions
Turnovers
You’re just not going to win many games against a team that shoots as well as the Warriors when you give them extra possessions
Defense wasn’t as bad as the numbers make it look…..GSW hit a LOT of well defended shots….but we gotta take care of the ball. We were throwing passes straight into defensive screens all night
Also, I don't know what's going on with Ridnour
He wasn’t this bad with the Bucks. Usually he’s a level head and a sure handle, but he’s looked really shaky since coming back from the injury
He looked great in his first game back, so i had hopes.
Telfair’s plantar fasciitis is putting to much pressure on Luke to get it done. He’s forcing
instead of flowing.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Typical Wolves game
Get out of the gate slowly and fall behind, spend the 1st half chipping away at it, only to come out of halftime and put out an absolute stink bomb of a 3rd quarter, with a mini-comeback in the 4th only because the other team lets us. At home, coming off two days’ rest, against a beatable team.
Positives: Darko had a half-decent game even though he looked fairly checked out. Beasley was less bad, on offense anyway. Kevin Love is so good that it barely warrants mentioning that he had another 20 – 20 game. The last two Wolves games I’ve attended have seen guys from my fantasy basketball team light us up (Manu on Wednesday, Wright tonight), so at least I’m getting something out of it on some level.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Beasley stunk
Time after time, he paid absolutely no attn to Wright. Pathetic D. Just awful. I wasted a batch of popcorn on this?? The whole team plays defense like that. Way too much room to operate. They need to get in their opponents face.
5 game losing streak
and playing on back to back nights? on the road? Losing the battle of the boards 55-32? If we had any kind of a defensive presence on the perimeter we’d have won easily. But the strategy of ignoring your man and allowing them 5-10 feet of open space and daring them to shoot just doesn’t work. They look like keystone cops out there, chasing the ball and forgetting to guard their man. It has to stop.
What happened to the triangle?
They mostly just passed the ball to someone and stood around watching the guy go one on one. No ball movement. Instead of getting better, they’re displaying the same bad habits they showed at the beginning of the season. They’re not learning from their mistakes.
excuse mah absence yall
mayn, i been kickin it wit GRLHOLUP iss been so amazing juss dropped her off at de airport doe.
as for mah wolves mayn, i aint worried yet about goin back ta “wittdom”. I know SnP takes alot uv heat fo being too negative an mos de time i agree wit him but not on dis wun homie sorry. I thank we juss need ta close out on three point shootaz more, dass benn a weakness all year. Wit dat sed, Wright always wilds out on us from 3. shti aint gon happen every night.
K love iz a monster. Darko iz, maybe, comin along mayn if he keeps smokin dat kill i been sendin him. I thank we all got our hopes up about B Easy he still got alot to learn but mayn i like de boi. wunce Rubio comes we got 4 really solid starters an a nice bench. We are nowhere near Wittdom. dat shit wuz traumatic to watch. dis is at leats entertaining an promising.
MAYN HOL UP!
What was the plan with David Lee?
Would we have traded the Knicks Al Jefferson or Kevin Love for him? Would we have just used our cap space? Anyone know?
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Laundry List of Problems
Yeah, the defense was bad. Too many uncontested threes, which made no sense. There were several occasions when GSW guard penetration drew in our guards, which led to poor rotation, which led to open threes.
And, more often than that, we had guards collapsing to double the bigs, when they had been given no reason to do so. Our interior defense was pretty solid until the third quarter, when the wheels came completely off.
I guess I’d rank the problems this way:
1. Terrible defensive rotations
2. Horrific post passing
3. Lack of communication on offense
4. Ridnour’s overall terrible game
5. Brewer’s wasted minutes
6. Beasley’s sloppy game
7. Johnson’s lack of touch and lack of touches (chicken and egg?)
8. General spasticity on the offensive boards (Looked like a preschool volleyball game in a phone booth at times)
by Cynical Jason on Nov 28, 2010 8:08 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
They seemed to be just going through the motions last night.
Too hard a workout w/o adequate rest? Too much turkey? The engine just wasn’t fired
up. You could see that early on when we let them hang with us. When we let them
ride along, they said, “Hey, we can steal this. These guys are playing like zombies!”
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Guy commenting on article @ Pioneer Press has a good analysis. (Mondak)
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Mondak:
The Wolves looked lazy from the opening tip last night. Lazy transition,
lazy passing (how many times were lazy passes picked off last night?)
and lazy defense. One blogger on Canis Hoopus suggested that the
Wolves had ingested too much Turkey on Thanksgiving and were in a
tryptophan phunk.
Beasley is right. On-the-ball defense isn’t there. Players are just being
curled around. I’ve heard Rambis mention it too, regarding certain
players’ inability to keep attacking guards in front of them. Our forwards
can’t keep off-the-ball offense from out-maneuvering them down low
and getting easy buckets, either. Both Beasley and Love share some
blame at that end. They continually lose track of the guys they are
supposed to be defending against.
For a long stretch we went small to match up better with Golden State.
I don’t know how well that experiment worked. I suspect Golden State,
having been without some big guys for awhile, is better accustomed to
playing that way, especially with Curry and Ellis out-quicking us.
Coach Rambis mentioned effort. He must have meant mental effort,
because our offense ‘acted stupidly’. We lost this game because of
deadly turnovers – again. Golden State got a lot of easy run-outs
because we didn’t take care of the ball.
We also wasted a lot of time trying to get Darko started on offense.
We tried to force it. Every time Darko tried to back Biedrins in, however,
the quick guards of GSW attacked Milicic from behind, stripping him.
Had Milicic instead concentrated on getting his teammates started by
distributing the ball in the Triangle, his offensive game would have
come to him more naturally. He wasn’t passing out of trouble as well
last night, or never got the chance to because he was stripped often.
Credit goes to Golden State. They came in with a mindset to win this
game. They were active defensively, their passing was as mentioned,
Crisp with a capital ‘C" (the kind of passing our coaches have been
stressing). We’ve had some passing like that of late, but not last
night. GSW covered our passing lanes well, and any lazy passes
were intercepted, and many times, because of being beaten in
transition, converted. We were simply schooled last night in
execution.
Our players looked very tired. Did they have a stiff practice without
recovery time? Did they eat too much turkey? They looked lethargic
from the get-go. They played disinterested all night long. There
was no spark. When it was already too late, they seemed to snap
out of it and play with energy and intensity. You can’t ‘bring it’
in the last 5 minutes when you’re down 15-20 points and you’ve
been playing in cement boots for the last 43 minutes. It’s been
done, but don’t look for miracles to bail you out; it won’t likely
happen.
The crowd was announced at over 14,000. Those of us watching saw
a lot of blue seat-backs and the cheering was of individuals, not
of numbers. The turnstile stats seem inflated. If the Wolves don’t
start looking like the Wolves we’ve seen in the last 5 games,
expect to start seeing more blue.
These games against bottom feeders are the games the Wolves must
win. Good teams, like good lionesses must learn to attack the weak
with ferocity. They didn’t do that last night. Please, reach down and
find your killer instinct.—- Mondak.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
This was an ugly loss
But the team is far beyond Wittman level. During Wittman none of the player’s got better, they were never competitive, and both Marko Jaric and Rashad McCants received major minutes on this team. All teams have ugly losses during the season, but it’s not a Wittman level disaster yet.
Go back and look at that year
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2009/splits/
4-11 on December 1st with a smaller point differential. The individual stories make this seem like a more compelling club but as a whole it’s the same game.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
BTW
The defensive numbers are the ones that really stick out. They’re giving up 2.29 points per every possession gained by a quicker pace while only making up 0.8 pts per extra possession on offense. I wish I had strength of schedule numbers for month-by-month splits so I could plug it in here.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Agreed - It's not at a Wittman level yet
But if you want to be encouraged by the the losses to the Spurs and Hornets, or make repeated comments on the game threads during those games along the lines of “The Refs are Against Us/We’re So much better than last year etc.” then last night was not encouraging. Not a moral victory, more like an immoral loss.
The next two are against Dallas and San Antonio. I’m not looking to come close and then blame it on the refs or say the other team “couldn’t miss”. I want to win the damn games.
Is just disinformation…
by Son of Gerald Green on Nov 28, 2010 9:33 AM CST reply actions
they're still learning how to win
they seem to be right there no matter who they’re playing…haven’t really learned to impose their will on games. doesn’t help when they’re playing listless, disorganized ball. darko and beasley both need to learn how to perform when the other team sends double-teams and focuses their defense on you. we made some lazy turnovers, but GS also just flat did some good ball-hawking. GS played really well, especially guard play. ellis and curry work work really well together. and dorell wright killed us. still way more fun to watch than the wittman era. at least one has the sense that the wolves are capable of winning just about any of these games, once they figure some things out.
The turnovers are killing us...
too many careless turnovers. Ridnour dribbling around at the top of the key, just loses the ball. Darko doesn’t know when he’s about to be double-teamed. Beasley throws it to the other team.
I’m not sure if these are very correctable of if they are just a result of having no great point guards or any great ball-dominant players. While Beasley has looked, at times, like a true go-to guy, he’s too big to just throw him the ball all the time on the perimeter.
I think the San Antonio loss was much worse — our shooting that night was exceptional down the stretch (and holding a lead!) and we still gave it away. This one was bad too, though. The Wittman parallels will come if the close, early losses lead to mass-frustration and blowouts at home.
I think people forget...
…just how quickly Witt’s team fell apart in December. The wheels absolutely came off after a bunch of relatively close losses.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Here's a spreadsheet comparing the two months/seasons
What’s scary is that this season’s offensive and defensive ratings are worse than they were with Witt and they play at a faster pace (almost 5 possessions more per game). If any team needed to slow it down more, it’s the Wolves. It will be hard to ignore the systemic nature of their bad play if this continues until the New Year. Rambis is a stubborn ass if they continue to bang their heads against the wall like they are doing right now. I get that he doesn’t have his perfect point guard but he needs to start pulling a Rummy by going to war with the Army he has instead of the one he wants.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
What you can't compare
is that there were a lot fewer first year starters on that team. Also, there were more players who had been playing together more than 15 games. A lot of the problem this year is that we have NO starting players from last year. Love started a few but you couldn’t call him a starter last year. None of these guys have been starters in their lives and are learning what it takes to play this many minutes night after night along with learning each other.
There is no comparison.
I disagree
I guess I think that the loss against the Spurs (and maybe even OKC) shouldn’t damper our spirits too much. Those are both good teams and we were right there with them at the end. And Beasley seems like a guy who will do his best to keep everyone’s spirits up. Even if his aren’t…
Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.
Side comment
I was at the game, and still enjoyed watching it, since my friends and I just kind of spaced out and talked during the 3rd, but just needed to say that on the approach to the target center from the skyways, they have lifesize pictures of the players put up. Next to their names they have their skills/attributes and while I did enjoy Beasley’s: “Defies Gravity” I couldn’t stop laughing when I read Ellington’s: “Dynamic Slashing Scorer” or something of the like. I KNOW for a fact that it included the word slashing.
Sorry for the run-on sentence there, just had to share that little tid-bit.
P.S. I don’t know if anyone remembers the play, but after a missed 2nd free throw, the wolves tipped it off the rim at least 7 straight times without getting a single put back to go in until finally Beasley was fouled. It was pretty hilarious watching them flail around the rim for 5 straight seconds or so.
Beasley guarded Ellis for a stretch last night
Even though Ridnour and Brewer were on the floor. Maybe it was because Brewer hadn’t been playing well, and they thought Beasley would pay more attention the guy with the ball rather than leaving Dorell Wright uncovered, but still… the coaching is puzzling as ever. It should be noted that they also called the “16 seconds left, down double digits, call a timeout to humiliate your players and irritate your fans.”
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Those time-outs are smart. Even when you're losing, you call time-outs as
if the game is in doubt. If we make it to the play-offs, those little things that we learned can
be used. The Lakers have always done this. No seconds, even in a blow-out, are to be wasted.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Turnovers and poor defense
Terrible game by wolves. The wolves will not win 20 games if they don’t reduce turnover and play much better defense. Very frustrating as a wolves fan to watch. They gave up way too many uncontested 3 pointers and continue to the turnover the basketball.
You say the teams have equal talent?
The Warriors team is far superior in talent to the Wolves. If they played 10 times the Warriors would win at least 8 of them. The Warriors are a near .500 team and the Wolves? Well 4 wins says it all. Bottomline is any team who makes Michael Beasley a major focal point will be desitined to be losers. He is a great individual talent but does not make his team better. The Wolves are simply the Wolves. Destined to a high lottery pick.
To love is to forgive!
EDIT:
Bottomline is any team who makesMichael BeasleyMonta Ellis a major focal point will be desitined to be losers. He is a great individual talent but does not make his team better
Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.
The Wolves have a pretty good front-court, poor back-court, the Warriors
have an excellent back-court tandem and a more than adequate front court.
Their shooters are clearly better than ours.
We simply need to improve our back-court level of play, and we need better shooting
from our offense, especially shooting guard. We have a rookie and a barely adequate
back-up. We need somebody who is lights-out as a shooter. Maybe Wes can be that
guy, maybe not. But I’d rather see the tag-team of Wes and Martell than what we have
now.
Wolves, it's time to "switch the flip".
Record is deceiving...
Your team has faced 5 teams playing .500 or greater ball. The Timberwolves have faced 8 teams playing .500 or greater ball. Yet, the Timberwolves were literally staring at a win against Oklahoma Citty and San Antonio before shoddy officiating turned the tide. The ‘Wolves also played even with the Lakers. The problem with the team is its effort is not there every night. Part of it may be that the team is missing it’s best PG (Flynn) and SG (Webster) and part of it is being a young team. However, to say that you have far superior talent — when in fact your system is known to greatly inflate players’ stats — is downright hilarious. That “”http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jungle%20ball" >jungle ball" [ the non-racist version since it appears to be racist somehow] system (is it a system?) is all fun and games in the regular season, but it’s not going to take you ANYWHERE come playoff time, when you make it in a couple years. What’s funny is that this supposedly untalented Timberwolves roster kept it close for 2.5 quarters while playing the worst ball of the season according to Coach Rambis. Be happy you have a great talent in Ellis and nice complimentary players in Lee and Curry.
Please go troll elsewhere, kid.
im a warrior fan and agree that the twolves have some great talent...
i just wanted to point out that when analyzing the Warriors start to the season so far it is important to remember that the team has been decimated by injuries (just like last year). I agree that the Twolves strength of schedule has been much tougher than the Warriors. I think being without Lee for half the season (1-7 record for the Warriors without Lee) has been crucial to the Warriors losing ground on their great 6-2 start. They have also been without Lou Amundson, Brandan Wright, and Epke Udoh for the entire season (B Wright played a couple games). This has really left the team with zero post presence as Vlad Radmonivic is terrible and Jeff Adrien is pretty much a D Leaguer learning on the fly.
Also, Steph Curry has missed a handful of games due to a lingering ankle injury that he has sprained and resprained 3-4 times. I believe that both the Wolves and Warriors have lots of talent to be excited about. I just think that the Warriors will be judged a little harshly right now and be underrated due to all the injuries. It will be interesting to see the team play when they get all their big men back.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Nov 29, 2010 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
and wolves are 100% healthy this year
except for Sebastian Telfair (foot), Nikola Pekovic (ankle), Martell Webster (back), Wes Johnson hamstring), Michael Beasley (hip), Luke Ridnour (hamstring), and Jonny Flynn (hip). Also the starting lineup has played 17 games together. Could we be judged harshly and underrated too?
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