Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: This Should Encourage Juan Mata

An unorthodox solution to Beasley and foul trouble

There are a lot of things to love about Michael Beasley, and nearly as many to hate. Really, the Wolves seem to collect these types of players, but with Darko having shored up many of his early-season offensive woes, Corey Brewer playing shockingly steady ball of late, and Kevin Love doing so much of the things we love that it's impossible to dwell on the things we hate, it's been Beasley who has drawn the ire of Canis Hoopus commenters, and not undeservedly so. A quick rundown of several of the most common complaints:

  1. He often starts games in a great offensive rhythm, only to pick up two quick fouls and be forced to head to the bench, killing our offensive momentum in the process.
  2.  He is a lazy defender, defending with his hands, not his feet.
  3. He has been godawful in crunch time.
  4. Any other player would get benched for the things he does, but we can't bench him for fear of killing his confidence.

28jbc42_medium

What if I told you I had a simple solution to all these problems?  Is that something you might be interested in?

2u7uavc_medium

Star-divide

Don't pull Beasley because of foul trouble.  Ever.  If he gets two fouls halfway through the first, leave him in.  4th foul just after halftime?  Leave him in.  5th foul early in the fourth quarter?  Leave. Him. In.

Listen, one of the things coaches do that drives game theorists nuts (along with allowing potentially tying field goal attempts rather than fouling when up 3 at the end of games, kicking field goals and PATs when the odds favor going for it, attempting 2 point buzzer beaters to tie when 3 point attempts significantly increase their overall odds of wining, and, in general, horribly mismanaging endgame situations in every sport....) is that coaches are far too conservative in pulling their players when they are in foul trouble.  The risk of foul trouble is that the player might eventually foul out and not be able to play anymore, but rather than leave him in and accepting that there's a chance he will miss time later coaches guarantee that the player won't be able to play by not playing him, thus volunteering for a 100% chance of the penalty they were trying to avoid.  Sure, there are other reasons, like wanting to ensure the player is around for the end of the game (statistically fallacious), not wanting the player to be a target for the other team to attack and draw more fouls on (easier said than done), and not wanting the player to become passive on defense (not an issue with Beasley), but coaches are nonetheless overly conditioned to pull players regardless of circumstance, because they value tradition over logic, and that's how it's always been done.

What if we ignored all that and didn't bench Beasley?  Look at that list from before the jump:

  1. If he's in a groove when he gets that foul, he stays in the game and keeps groovin'.
  2. If he wants to keep playing, he'll be forced to adjust how he defends.  There might be a rough patch where Beasley finds himself fouling out before halftime, but assuming he cares about playing late in games, he'll be forced to stop committing cheap fouls.
  3. He can't kill us at the end of close games with costly mistakes if he's fouled out by then.
  4. If he does end up fouling out early, his head probably wasn't in that game anyway.  We need to take longer looks at how our other wings, namely Wes Johnson, perform at the small forward position to really know what our best option is going forward.  If Johnson plays a few quarters there because Beasley has fouled out, we get our extended audition without anyone's egos being crushed.

So simple, so effective.  Just play Beasley his regular minutes regardless of his foul situation.  The only complaint I can see is that losing Beasley before the end of the game robs us of our go-to crunch time scorer.  To that I counter, we don't have a go-to crunch time scorer.  It would be nice if we did.  But we don't; we have a go-to crunch time turnover producer (well, several).  Beasley could eventually become that scorer, but until he has, let's make him earn those reps by demonstrating that his head is in the game, and then hopefully he'll do a better job in the games where he lasts long enough to reach those situations.

Comment 110 comments  |  11 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Yes. I like this

You are right, coaches are insanely conservative with fouls; way beyond what’s reasonable.

Good stuff.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Dec 16, 2010 5:32 PM CST reply actions  

From my vantage point

If Beasley isn’t in there, an we have a chance at winning or tying a game late, someone will have to take over. Personally I think Martell or Wes could execute perfectly. We have to give them a chance, if we keep putting it in Beasley’s hand with a 25% chance, why not let someone else try it? Martell, from my assumption, as well as Wes, haven’t had an equal or opportune chance at winning a game late.

If it’s a 65 ft shot though, then we give it to Brewer.

by RB10 on Dec 17, 2010 12:41 AM CST up reply actions  

What would a non-insanely-conservative foul practice look like?

I agree in outline, but it would be interesting to know what’s going through the opposing coach’s mind when someone like Beasley gets left in with early foul trouble. “We’re lighting up Beas; go at him”? Does the tactical situation get heavily skewed by that?

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Generally they should, as John suggests, ignore the fouls, just play him the normal rotations.

That should go for everyone. Here’s the thing: yes, there are a few guys where if Beasley is guarding him, they can attack the foul problems. But I think if coaches change their approach to offense because an opponent is in foul trouble, that’s a win for the Wolves. Trying to do things that you normally don’t do offensively is very difficult.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Dec 17, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

Beas, Love, and Happiness

by Bahlgren1 on Dec 16, 2010 5:40 PM CST reply actions  

I appreciate it.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 16, 2010 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe I can accept this proposal

Now that we have some depth on the bench. Let Michael blow through his 5 and eventually he might become more discrete in how he burns through them.

Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.

by Flagrant on Dec 16, 2010 5:43 PM CST reply actions  

Here are a three more simple suggestions
  1. Watch your man, not the ball
  2. Defend with your feet not your hands
  3. If you get beat, don’t try to rush back into the play to block the shot

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Dec 16, 2010 6:24 PM CST reply actions  

agreed

He still guards his man like he is playing PF

by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Dec 16, 2010 9:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

this might actually work

The best thing that could happen would be to let him watch someone else take the last shot. It is his dream play so if he has to watch an end of game last shot taken by someone else it will enter his mind that he should be more cautious in order to give himself the best chance of being one the floor at the end of the game.

by blackswanhunter on Dec 16, 2010 6:52 PM CST reply actions  

Beasley is capable of being a go-to scorer in late game situations.

He did win us the Clipper game. But I don’t disagree with your overall strategy. It makes sense to me.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 16, 2010 7:42 PM CST reply actions  

I am waiting for the Fan post from John Doe

About how to improve Loves Defense. Even though Love is one the best power forwards in nba. he could be all time great if he improved his defense. Just look at his numbers.

by chuckd@79 on Dec 16, 2010 8:16 PM CST reply actions  

No, he's already all time great.

Probably better than Jordan.
You’re the only one who doesn’t know it chuck.

Beas, Love, and Happiness

by Bahlgren1 on Dec 16, 2010 9:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't have any cute ideas there.

Trust that your other four teammates will be able to get a defensive rebound if you have to sell out on a hard close-out. Other than that, he’s doing the best he can with what he’s got.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 16, 2010 11:41 PM CST up reply actions  

So becouse he cant run or jump

Love gets a free pass for his lackluster D. This sounds like a fanboy excuse to me.

by chuckd@79 on Dec 17, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry I should not have gone the fanboy route

Bad boy bill could not run or jump but he was a hell of a defender. So again where is your cute post about how love can improve his D.

by chuckd@79 on Dec 18, 2010 1:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I told you

I don’t have one. You seem to have all the answers (easy to do when you don’t care whether you’re right or wrong). Why don’t you write it?

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 18, 2010 7:36 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Recced

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Dec 19, 2010 6:33 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Sort of like bringing you ace closer in for the 7th inning

And the meat of the batting order.
I’m going to agree with this 100% until someone brings up a counterpoint. Then I’ll fold like a cheap suit.

by fanslaststand on Dec 16, 2010 8:18 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

Beasley is a

Mariano Rivera, ya know, the yankee’s closer, I don’t consider Beas a “ace closer” like a Mariano Rivera if that’s what you meant by that post.

by RB10 on Dec 17, 2010 12:44 AM CST up reply actions  

No I get what fanslaststand is saying

Usually you save your closer for the 9th regardless of who is up. However, if the better hitters are up in the 7th or 8th why not bring him in then to mow them down. The only problem is that the putz you put in after the closer might allow some hits and then the meat of the order will be up in the 9th anyway except your closer is done for the night

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 17, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

I like it

All the more now too with Webster back. Plenty of firepower now for those nights when Beas crashes and burns

by Oceanary on Dec 16, 2010 8:21 PM CST reply actions  

Not sure about the mental part of this strategy

You may well be right that the trial by fire would change Beas approach to guarding players, but leaving him in with fouls might also lead to timid defense or at least to a timid mindset about bodying up on his man.
Okay, that writes much stranger than I meant it, but If Beasley is every bit as much of a “head case” as Darko is, then putting him in the position where he fouls out of games in the 1st half could cause more problems than it solves.
That said, would the same approach work if applied to Pekovic or Darko when they get into foul trouble early in a game?
 Okay, with Pek it’s a given. I don’t really know.
In the end it’s probably worth a try, but Rambis would need to keep in mind that there have been times where Darko and Beas have tuned out because they felt at a loss as to how handle the pressure of being not valued for their skills due to expectations that they perform roles not suited for them.
Tough love often works, but not always.

"The Human race has only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter"-Mark Twain

by Dogpile on Dec 16, 2010 8:38 PM CST reply actions  

3/4 of Beas’ fouls, IMIO, are after a missed shot, 95 ft away from the basket. The guy can ball, but those fouls are the ones that bug me. I don’t know how to solve that problem. Maybe a psychiatrist.

by RB10 on Dec 17, 2010 12:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I played with a guy like this on my base team at Osan

Dude was an awesome offensive player and a hack. We called him apeshit. Apeshit had two settings "off’ and “apeshit”. We let him go apeshit until he fouled out or until he got a tech. I like this idea. I also like the idea of having an apeshit on the Wolves.

Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 16, 2010 8:59 PM CST reply actions  

Korea?

S-n-P, I’m a Navy guy who works for Stars and Stripes Pacific in Tokyo. Cool to hear that you have some Pacific U.S. military roots. Love it out here!

by tddubb on Dec 17, 2010 5:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I love it...

….and was able to travel around the area with the base team. I hopped around Japan and Okinawa during a week off. Awesome part of the world. We have friends who are transferring to Kadena next year and we’re talking about using that as an excuse to go back for a visit.

Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 17, 2010 8:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Would someone with influence please

…send this to the coaching staff.

Thank you.

by timmuggs on Dec 16, 2010 9:08 PM CST reply actions  

I'll get right on that

My ticket rep would love to hear from me.

“No. No tickets. I just want you to relay a message to Kurt.”

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 17, 2010 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

It's worth a try...

But here’s a thought on how it could backfire… Love or Darko get in foul trouble: Beasley fouls out in the early 3rd or 4th and Darko’s also in foul trouble. If the matchup dictates flipping Love to the 5 (as opposed to Pek), who then mans the 4? With Tolliver out, it would probably have to be Webster. Not sure how effective Webs would be in that role – literally no idea since I’ve never really seen it. If Love’s in foul trouble, Beasley would be the one (again, with Tolliver out) to swing to the 4. If Beasley’s out of the game in the early 4th and Love’s got 5 fouls with 8 minutes to go… Uh-oh! That being said, maybe doing it for one game would be enough to make a difference – whether Beasley fouls out or not during that game, he will be forced to adjust and play smarter.

by Asher14 on Dec 16, 2010 9:56 PM CST reply actions  

You have forgotten the basketball juggernaut that is

Kosta Koufos.

Yeah, that’s a concern. But we lose a lot of games to begin with. A lot of variables are in play for that scenario: Beasley needs to foul out early, and one of Darko or Love has to have some issue and it needs to be a fairly specific scenario where it’s a close game that can be swung specifically by our other big man options being inadequate. But yeah, I do miss Tolliver.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 16, 2010 11:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Last time I checked

Kosta has been in a suit and tie for the last couple of nights, so it’s hard for him to play defense in a suit, tie, and some squeaky dress shoes.

by RB10 on Dec 17, 2010 12:47 AM CST up reply actions  

How much harder is it than when he's wearing his uniform?

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm willing to concede a chance at a win or two...

…if in the long run it makes #8 play smarter. So it could backfire as far as getting a W for that particular night, but it could be an example of one step back, two steps forward.

by Asher14 on Dec 17, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Why not have both?

I really don’t think beasley fouling out early will hurt many chances for a win. As much as I love the guys play I hate watching him in the End of the game forcing shots and turning it over, just a painful thing to watch. If It is a close game we wouldnt have to worry about his turnovers and actually might pull off the late game win. SO we can have both chances at winning and Beasley getting smarter. Win-win-win.

by Waucckhewww on Dec 17, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree...

Beasley still has a lot to improve on his all-around game (and with time he will). I think Martell would be just as capable in end game situations as Beasley because of his defensive ability, passing, and veteran savvy. The only issue would be if other players are in foul trouble and now we’re playing someone minutes who probably shouldn’t be on the court (Koufos, Hayward, Webster at the 4). Right now our frontcourt depth is shady without Tolliver and Pek still adjusting to the NBA.

by Asher14 on Dec 17, 2010 7:46 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Great post.

Loved the Martin Landau intro!

Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher

by PJS on Dec 16, 2010 9:56 PM CST reply actions  

(Martin Landau references are required to include Space: 1999 references.)

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

well reasoned

I was formerly of the mind of pulling a starter in foul trouble to have him for the fourth, but you have convinced otherwise in this case. Plus supposedly this team is all about learning and growing on the floor, adjusting and adapting to defensive and offensive sets. What better way to make Beas and the rest of the team adapt? The season’s a wash, so Rambis should leave him in, learn him real good like.

by monkeywolf on Dec 16, 2010 10:04 PM CST reply actions  

the tough love Rambis applyed to KLove...

Early in the season didn’t faze him. Why not apply a little tough love to Beasley? Only, instead of benching him for poor defense like he did with Love, leave Beasley in there come hell or high water. There will be nights where Beas will look like a fool, whether it’s his poor defense, ng, fouling out, or turnovers

by Are we cursed? on Dec 16, 2010 10:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

the tough love Rambis applyed to KLove...

Early in the season didn’t faze him. Why not apply a little tough love to Beasley? Only, instead of benching him for poor defense like he did with Love, leave Beasley in there come hell or high water. There will be nights where Beas will look like a fool, whether it’s his poor defense, poor shot selection, fouling out with stupid fouls, or turnovers. If he doesn’t want to look like a fool, he’ll work on his issues. If it leads to a few losses, well, it’s not like what we’re doing right now is working.

by Are we cursed? on Dec 16, 2010 10:27 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

start webster

i say start martell at the 3. good defense, good energy, good ball movement and ability to hit outside shots. bring beas of the bench for instant offense. so what if he picks up two quick ones? if he’s hot and out of foul trouble, play him from midway through the first straight up till hafltime. if he’s ineffective, back to the bench.

seems pretty simple to me.

by LA Wolf on Dec 16, 2010 10:42 PM CST reply actions  

I'd argue with that

I’m Martell’s biggest fan, but a demotion or Beasley to the bench isn’t the right option, in my opinion. Martell is that scoring threat off the bench, if Martell were to start, it should be for Wes at the 2. Of Wes, Martell, or Beasley, one of them will have to be a scorer off the bench. Of the three, Martell is the most capable, and then followed closely by Wes. Beasley WAY behind. We can’t mess with Beasley’s confidence. He’ll learn from experience. I’d send him to a psychiatrist before the bench.

by RB10 on Dec 17, 2010 12:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I love this idea

My only concern is that I think the refs have it out for Beasley for some reason. Worse, is the fact that he now has a reputation as a fouler, so they just call him for a foul because he’s a known fouler.

But… maybe the refs will be a little more cautious about giving a guy his 4th foul in the first half (at least after the first few times doing it)… which brings us back to this being an excellent idea.

by Rodman99 on Dec 16, 2010 10:48 PM CST reply actions  

Has this been a problem his whole career?

And has it really even been a problem this whole season?

It seems to me we’re overreacting to a recent string of games where Beasley’s been in foul trouble.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Dec 16, 2010 10:57 PM CST reply actions  

It's a this year thing.

His fouls/minute are significantly higher than they were in his first two years. He’s 7th in the league in fouls, but almost all the guys in the top 20 are shot-blocking big men. I think that’s the heart of my and others’ frustration. It’s how he’s getting the fouls. Not through playing good, tough defense, but by making dumb decisions, often a direct result of laziness on defense.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 16, 2010 11:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't forget a good chunk of his fouls are charges

Defenses know they can’t stop him so the play is to have the weak side defender (help defender) take the charge. This has increased dramatically since the start of the year and is the standard play for stopping Beasley. He needs to either learn to to go up around these guys and/or make the pass to the open man. I do think this is a lame part of the league… I hate the whole run to the spot and flop after the guy has started his drive. If Beas improved on this area he’d be on the floor a lot more.

by Rodman99 on Dec 17, 2010 7:27 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

For some smart people

you guys miss the obvious. The reason why his fouls are up is because he is playing the 3 instead of the 4. I cant understand people that say they watch basketball don’t know that there is difference between defending 3’s instead of 4’s.

by chuckd@79 on Dec 17, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there any way to track fouls per minute

When MB is playing at certain positions?

I’m on the fence on this issue.
MB might make a good bench 3-4 combo offensive sparkplug, but I think he could/should be more. Probably too thin for full time 4.

by WinTheLottery on Dec 17, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Glad you asked WTL!

There is, in fact, a way to look at fouls by position. And in looking at those, we can see that chuck is clearly wrong. Beasley fouls, for purpose of sample size, the exact same amount at each position. That’d be 5.3 fouls per 48 minutes at the SF and 5.5 fouls per 48 minutes at PF.

For reference, he plays 37% of our SF minutes and 25% of our PF minutes.

Should be noted that I still agree with Chuck that Beasley is better as a PF (but fouls are clearly not a position issue so much as a stupidity issue, which should hopefully be fixed rather easily), but I still believe his real potential lies in a Carmelo-esque SF role.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 17, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Whenever we go small with Love at C

and then lately we haven’t had Tolliver so we don’t really have a lot of options for backup 4s. Even when we had Tolliver, sometimes Tolliver would be our ‘SF’ though they both shared duties, IIRC.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 17, 2010 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

That data is demonstrably skewed

Sadly. 82games attributes Beasley at PF minutes to Michael when he plays with Tolliver and a big (it’s an algorithm so this includes Love)

Now, this is, however a good example of observationist nonsense. If you think that Beasley fuould substantially less when he plays the 4, you’re not actually watching the games.

by Ailuridae on Dec 18, 2010 8:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Your last sentence makes no sense.

If someone isn’t actually watching the games, it can’t be observationist nonsense by definition.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 18, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

heh

While your point is true, I think we know what he meant by it (at least I do). So unless this was your goal anyways, you just furthered his side of your ongoing bitch-fest by jumping in on one of his comments just because it’s him. If it was your goal… well… success.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 18, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Just becaues Ailuridae and I don't really like each other

doesn’t mean I’m singling him out when I make comments. I’ll call out anyone if they make a point that I disagree with and feel like needs correcting.

Do you have any mirrors in your house? If so, you might want to go look in one.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 18, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

You do the same to me all the time

It’s quite apparent that you target the people you dislike (or someone making a stats related comment in general) in your shorter responses. It’s not that you disagree with the idea, it’s that you dislike the reasoning or person behind the idea in general. Either stats or people. There’s an extremely obvious recurring trend with you. I’m not saying it hasn’t gotten better, but it’s still quite obvious to those of us who have been around the site for more than 4 months (I remember the good ole days when I couldn’t make a comment that didn’t have a dumbass TA response within 20 minutes… and no offense on the dumbass part, I really don’t mean that as an insult to you. But I think you’re well aware that some of your ‘responses’ lacked any… ummm… anything)

I respond to a lot of people. That’s why I have a shit ton (for some unknown reason that I am perfectly ok with, that means ‘a lot’) of comments, which apart from game threads, are usually moderately detailed (read: more than one or two words/sentences). It’s impossible not to jump in the middle of conversations on this website, especially the arguments that are stronger opinion issues. But as far as I have seen, you are the only one who jumps in every time you see an opening to take a shot at someone (or stats) you dislike. Even if you’d put some thought into hating someone, it wouldn’t be so insufferable.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 18, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I have no idea what your last line means.

Put thought into hating someone? Again, that leaves me totally confused.

And I don’t target anyone. It just so happens that they people I disagree with most often are the same people: people that use advanced stats – primarily, Win Scores, PER, Win Shares, per/48, etc..

So, sure, I guess you could say I target comments with those types of formulas in them. And so, it might seem like I’m targeting the people who make those comments. But that’s just a lazy argument. It’s the content, not the poster, that provokes a comment from me.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 18, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

And because I know you have a compulsion to get in the last word

in every single confrontation you have (see: chuckd, Oceanary, etc.), I’ll leave you with this:

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 18, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Hah

I don’t know why getting the last word becomes such an important idea to people like you. As you can see from the only thread you have in mind right now (I leave a lot of arguments with ChuckD untouched, look them all up and figure out the percentage. Now if we went in and figured out the percentage of argumentative responses you have with people you obviously dislike, I’m guessing it’s pretty damn high. But that’s a statistic, I don’t expect you to think highly of that), Oceanary started bitching about it when I was responding to a post where he was literally asking me a question. And a post in which he was being a giant self-indulgent douche. If you don’t want me to respond, then don’t put argumentative ideas into the response to me. Otherwise I am polite enough to respond to something that took you time to put together. Anyways, there’s way too many things I do on this site that you can call out, but trying to get the last word? Come on, Tim. Step it up a notch. There’s a huge difference between responding to a question on a forum and what you do to your girlfriend that always makes her say that to you.

And the last line: Whenever you hate someone an idea you just throw in a comment that doesn’t discredit anything anyone said (One example that you’ve used before: “Logic”). If you hate the person idea that much, make a rational argument for it. Don’t just respond just to respond and make them know that you hate them the idea. That’s the Old TA, the one who was in the camp with College Wolf and gang (do you really still think they weren’t giant aholes?), coming back. If that’s how you want to keep going, I’ll treat you like I did then: like an idiot. If you want to try to keep having civil conversations like we’ve been kind of doing over the past couple months, great!

In this particular case, I find it funny that you bring it up after 2 comments in which you posted this in hopes that it would deter me from responding. Nah. You’re a grown man, Tim, act like it. These are cheap child games. I’m not the only person who is saying you do this, so it must have some truth to it, whether you can admit that or not. And because I know I will get some picture in response (if you want me to respond, then answer with words or questions, which is why I responded to Oceanary. But pictures are fun too. I’ve used them before too! But not when I was short of a reply, like yourself. Only when the other poster was making shit up to avoid being wrong or to move the point back further from where it started. So I find it appropriate here!):

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 18, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't ever mention my girlfriend in a post again.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 18, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Eh

Didn’t mean it how I assume you just took it. Apologies if it came off as a shot at her.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 18, 2010 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Whoa.

This just got real.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 18, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

You know what this reminds me of?

Remember during the John Kerry/George Bush debates, Kerry had been crushing them, but made the error of mentioning Dick Cheney’s lesbian daughter as a pertinent, tangible example of a someone who obviously wouldn’t have chosen to be a homosexual, given her upbringing, in response to the question of whether he thinks homosexuality is a choice. Bam! Moral high ground swung. The rest of history wrote itself. Cheney expresses outrage, the story swirls through the media, and the content of the debates is overshadowed.

The Republican force is strong with Tim. Mplax gives him three strong paragraphs on why he’s being petty and using unfair debate practices. But wait, there’s a joke about his girlfriend! Tim seizes the moral high ground and responds to this irrelevant detail of Mplax’s post, and Mplax folds like a lawn chair, letting Tim completely off the hook for owning up to any of the content of his previous post. (I guess you could say the Democratic Force is strong with Mplax.)

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 19, 2010 6:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Saturday Night Live was hilarious on that topic.

During their debate skits, they had Kerry responding to every question with that.

To a question about flu vaccines, SNL Kerry: “If you ask Dick Cheney’s daughter, Mary Cheney, who is a lesbian, she’ll tell you… That she doesn’t want to get the flu!”

by LoveTo on Dec 19, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh

Let off the hook, or given up?

What should I do?
Should I remind you this has happened before?

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 19, 2010 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

HE IS WHO YOU THOUGHT HE WAS!

AND YOU LET HIM OFF THE HOOK!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 19, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right.

I overreacted to that and I came off harsher than intended. That’s my bad.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 19, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Well you're doing better now.

Hopefully you at least halfway appreciated the analogy. I would have ignored that whole conversation except that it reminded me of a potentially humorous parallel.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 19, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Um, you're giving the "observationist" stance credit for scruples it doesn't have.

In practice positions like

“[Kevin Love] / [Michael Beasley]
[will never be X] / [cannot do Y]”

are elastic in the hands of people who, say, took a strong stance about Beasley’s position before the year even started. They knew the answers, based on “watching,” before Beas had played a single game with the Wolves.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 18, 2010 7:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

we went over this in another thread. I think it’s tough to figure out either way where each guy should be listed. Neither of them played the straight PF role and neither played the SF role. I’d say when they play together, Tolliver is a stretch PF and Beasley is a tweener forward. So I’d attribute about 50% of each position to each of them when playing with each other.

Either way I don’t think fouls or TOs would change very much because they are so similar.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 18, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree Beasley struggles more against 3's

But me eyeballs see a ton of fouls that he makes that are just plain dumb. Luke couldn’t guard Monta Ellis to save his life, but he wasn’t hacking him to oblivion because of it. It seems Beas gets at least 1 charge a game and one ticky-tack reach-in. Too many of his fouls could have been avoided in his sleep. That’s what’s frustrating.

by Asher14 on Dec 17, 2010 7:54 PM CST up reply actions  

yes

because reaching and not moving your feet works real well at the 4 too.

by zebano on Dec 18, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

So, as far as crunch time stats go,

you’re saying that negative values for “hands” and “passing” ratings are bad, right?

by dropstep on Dec 16, 2010 10:59 PM CST reply actions  

That is my assertion, yes.

Pretty ugly set of stats there. We so desperately want to have this late game hero that we keep putting Beasley in these situations, where a rational observer would have cut bait a long time ago and admitted he’s usually a disaster. It kind of speaks to how Kobe got his reputation as the greatest closer ever, when the documented results show that he’s a below-average option. We remember the good times as long as they happen just often enough.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Dec 16, 2010 11:40 PM CST up reply actions  

People's minds are wired this way.

We recognize the presence of stuff, but don’t recognize absences so well, especially when we’re cued about what we’re looking for, and especially when we’re trying to remember stuff anecdotally in the past.

Simple example from a pop psychology book I read a while back:

In the mid 1980s, people are asked to say which two of these four are “most alike”: Ceylon, Nepal, West Germany, East Germany. They say West and East Germany are most alike, by a large margin.
Then a different set of people are asked to say which of those same four places are “most unlike.” Again, Ceylon, Nepal, West Germany, and East Germany are the options. The overwhelming answer is, again, West Germany and East Germany.

Depends on how you phrase what you’re looking for. When we try to remember “late game heroics,” we don’t remember the klutzy failures so much. Unless they’ve really got something distinctive about them, they don’t stand out in our minds. We’re filtering for the positive result.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

This is something that happens a ton in baseball

Justin Morneau swings for the fences every time in late game situations, and gets lauded for the few times he hits game winners.

Joe Mauer works the count, takes tons of walks, and extends the game more often than not.

Overall, Mauer’s PAs were more valuable than Morneau’s, because it’s not just the game winning HRs that matter, it’s also the game ending strikeouts.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Dec 17, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

See, here's the thing though, for me. And this isn't an argument against

advanced stats. Because what you’re saying is true.

But…as a fan, I enjoy walk off home runs and buzzer beaters. They’re a lot of fun to watch. So, I value the guys who can make them on somewhat of a regular basis – even if they miss quite a few – because they entertain me.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 17, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

As opposed to

a late ninth inning rally? I’d rather watch a bunch of Mauers winning us 8 out of 10 games than a bunch of Morneas winning us 2 out of 10 with style.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Dec 17, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Joe Mauer is an interesting case for Twins fans.

Back when I was a big baseball fan, the Twins as an organization always overvalued “dynamic” hitters with a lack of plate discipline.

Major league teams don’t benefit a ton from batting Dan Gladden – career on base percentage .324 – leadoff. But the Twins got away with it, even though he got on at an even worse rate in both their playoff years. And as an organization the team consistently spends too much in one sense or another to get “dynamic” batters who swing at just anything.

Mauer flies in the face of that, in a big way. Plate discipline is one of those things players don’t seem to learn or unlearn over time, either, so however much he rubs the organization the wrong way, it’s not going to change that much.

Some sort of scouting culture is going on, there. I’d be interested to know if it’s still going on…

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

You need both.

You have to get guys on base in order for the home run hitter to get that three-run shot that wins the game.

You can’t have a baseball lineup chock full of “aggressive” home run hitters any more than you can have a basketball team full of ball-dominant Tyreke Evans guards who drive to the basket. You won’t be in position for that dramatic game winner, in either case.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, that's a reasonable argument.

I agree with that.

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 17, 2010 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

selective attention

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 17, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Another scha-weet example.

Even when it’s that stark, we don’t catch stuff.

And absences? The lack of the thing we’re looking for? We underestimate them dramatically, all the time.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait

Are we saying people really don’t see the gorilla? Feral, you didn’t see your twin?

The thoughts running through my head were, “Great, now there’s a gorilla making it harder for me to see the passes. Wait, the gorilla isn’t wearing white, is he??”

Beas, Love, and Happiness

by Bahlgren1 on Dec 17, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

A *lot* of people don't see the gorilla. Or players leaving the stage, either.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

Beas, Love, and Happiness

by Bahlgren1 on Dec 17, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Incidentally: That gorilla mask was fricking hot.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you're talking temperature wise...

Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.

by TimAllen on Dec 17, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes yes

I was trying to decide if he meant wearing his own, or that he was sexually attracted to the gorilla in the video.

Beas, Love, and Happiness

by Bahlgren1 on Dec 17, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Not mutually exclusive options, as it turns out.

Once you’ve spent a good 3 1/2-hour shift at the Zoo Boo, crouching as low to the ground as possible so as not to scare any preschoolers, you tend to have a soft spot for other gorilla costume wearers. We’ve been through the wars.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Cornelia's a chimp, not a gorilla.

(I’m holding out for a bonobo.)

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 18, 2010 4:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Also they're not really so nonviolent.

Still, as primates go, I relate.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 18, 2010 7:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Super Beas should DRAW fouls, not COMMIT them

And I like it (what you wrote). Beasley should be there in the early going even with foul trouble. Even if he gets 5 fouls in the first half, if he’s sinking shots, we need to play him for the whole half. We need to dominate early and in case of foul trouble, rest him in the third and get someone to step up and continue dominating the offense (preferably Wes). Then we can play him in the 4th. Being able to play in the closing quarter, especially in a close game, effectively boosts confidence, which is what Beasley needs. We’re not a playoff team this year. Mistakes can be tolerated and if Beasley makes a mistake in crunch time, it should be alright. He can grow on that and try again in the next game. He needs to be confident being the man during the clutch. And right now, the best way to practice that is through rinse and repeat.

Give BEAS (Peace, for all you slowheads) a chance ;)

Wesley Johnson is man crush worthy. But only when he's making shots.

Super Beas > You

by (o.O) on Dec 17, 2010 6:06 AM CST reply actions  

6th foul?

Leave him in.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Dec 17, 2010 10:19 AM CST reply actions  

Cal Bowdler

haunts us.

Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH

by feral on Dec 17, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Seriously though

I think if they are two quick fouls in a row, you have to sit the guy because his head won’t be in the game and his emotions will get the better of him.

However, I think if he just casually picks up.. say… first foul with 10:00 remaining in the first, second foul with 4:00 remaining in the first… you leave him in. If when you regularly sub him out at the end of the 1st, and then he comes back in with 8:00 left in the 2nd, and he picks up a foul – leave him in. Beasley should kind of only be pulled for disrupting the offense by not looking to pass, or if he blows a defensive assignment.

I agree that fouls are not the way to curtail his minutes. Emotions and lack of effort should be.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Dec 17, 2010 10:24 AM CST reply actions  

ummm
or if he blows a defensive assignment.

If they took him out whenever he blows a defensive assignment, he’d never get to play.

by Mano on Dec 17, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

His lack of defense is what kills us

Sure he gets called for a lot of ticky tack fouls. The officiating has been nothing short of terrible this year. But what really kills us is his habit of completely ignoring his man on the perimeter. He always leaves his man wide open, giving him 8 feet of breathing room, while he drifts into the lane for no apparent reason. For once I’d like to see him stick with his man like glue, regardless of what’s going on behind him.

by Mano on Dec 17, 2010 10:44 AM CST reply actions  

Not just Beas

the whole team should try that

by WinTheLottery on Dec 17, 2010 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Whatever happened to the defensive guru Kurt was supposed to be?

If he is this clueless on how to defend, he should bring in a defensive specialist. If the players are just this bad at defending, then our future looks bleak. If they can’t play man to man, and they emphatically can’t, they should try a zone. At least then Beas won’t leave his man so wide open. He’ll be forced to stay within a certain area.

Hey, say what you want about a zone defense. It couldn’t possibly be worse than that thing they’re trotting out there now they call a defense. We couldn’t even beat the only team in the league that’s worse than us at defense. Beas should come off the bench, IMO. His weaknesses (ball hogging, passive defense) hurt us more than his scoring helps us.

by Mano on Dec 17, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

mayn

i gots ta c beez in de allstar game

Mayn dis is rill!

by Mayndisisrill on Dec 19, 2010 10:42 PM CST reply actions  

I agree with the article

I’ve never understood the philosophy of guaranteeing your players don’t play just so you have them at the end. Get maximum minutes from your premier talent. They should only be pulled for: 1. rest 2. to create a better matchup somewhere on the floor.

by zebano on Dec 20, 2010 9:49 AM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Canis Hoopus is straight T-Wolves straight from Minnesota.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Around the League: Atlanta Hawks
Hello-kitty-color_small
Get. Will. Barton.
Franklin2_small
Some Thoughts on Glen Taylor's Recent Comments

Recent FanPosts

Small
A Poem by Rashad McCants
Franklin2_small
Revisiting Rudy Gay (with poll!)
Small
A name we haven't talked about but should be...
Wolfen_small
Another Draftable Wing Prospect?
Small
#12 Best Pure Shooter in NBA
Timberwolves_logo_old_292_small
Jazz guard Bell blasts Corbin
Small
Who will be a better NBA player?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Canis Hoopus Twitter

    follow me on Twitter

    Hoopus Features

    HOOPUS FAQ

    Salary Cap Info

    Draft Info

    Player Movement Flow Charts

    Draft Boards

    Former Tag Lines:

    • In desperate need of an epic dose of basketball Viagra
    • Your source of radical left wing politics cleverly disguised as basketball fandom
    • Palin-Free since before statehood
    • Despairy Home Companion
    • The world's leading exporter of small area quickness
    • Sorry…I have no idea who is Joe Mauer
    • Home of the Peja deep douche
    • Vote McGrady!
    • Bork, bork, bork, bork, bork
    • Wir Sind Darko
    • Weird, unhealthy Darko mania
    • les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas
    • Basketball success makes character issues forgivable
    • Building the Boogie Bandwagon
    • Building the Dream....One Power Forward At A Time
    • Kids, Puppy Dogs, And Long Walks In The Park
    • SWITCH THE FLIP!!!
    • Team Red Pill.
    • December is Bunny Month. Survive it with insincerity and Merle Haggard.
    • Like having a really good seat at a beheading.
    • We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're Wolves fans, and Wolves fans are best at everything.
    • Getting Real Mythological
    • Trapped in Punxsawawney
    • BIIYYYOOOMMMBOOOOOOO!!!
    • Estoy llevando mi talento a Minnesota
    • Where sharks do battle with giant eagles
    • You don’t put a saddle and reins on a magical unicorn, you bareback it and put faith in nature
    • Toeing the line between nerd and loser
    • If Theo Ratliff’s Expiring Contract could see us now...

    Hoopus Recipe Book

    Let's Settle This:


    Self-Promotion

    BallHype Sports Blog Rankings


    Managers

    Dr wyn

    Journey_small Stop-n-Pop

    Rviy7fbgmhz5ht2dpgo6q0jfu_small TimAllen

    Editors

    Wolveslogo_small Oceanary

    Authors

    Small SG

    Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler