Ouch
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 22, 2010 10:43 PM CST
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PrintOK, that was rough. The island natives are getting restless and if Our Beloved Puppies lose to the Cavs, I think they'll kill Piggy. Let's begin with a poem, courtesy of the Son of Gerald Green:
For it looks to be another game
Where our Wolves start out roaring and end up tamed
3 quarters of fun, the other team’s 4th quarter run
We have so many culprits to blameIs it Kahn? Is it Rambis?
Is it a fanbase consumed with sadness?
Winning is for fans of other teams
Time to go make another Ginger and Beam
While this was perhaps the worst loss of the season, it was also something of a perfect encapsulation of why this team is where it's at, from the personnel to the system.
Let's start with the system. Over at Sekou Smith's Hangtime Blog Steve Aschburner commemorated the occasion of Kurt Rambis equaling Jimmy Rodger's all time Wolves coaching record of ineptitude with a Joakim Noah quote about the infamous Triangle:
Also Rambis has installed something resembling the triangle offense that he learned on the Lakers’ bench as an assistant to Phil Jackson with Tex Winter and there has been a pretty steep learning curve. Oh, and no Kobe Bryant to bail out broken possessions late in the shock clock, the wayMichael Jordan did for Jackson and Winter in Chicago.
"The Lakers run the triangle and Minnesota runs it," Bulls center Joakim Noah told me recently, "but the personnel is different, y’know." Yeah, we know.
The Triangle is not just a rarely-used offensive scheme, it's something of an ego management tool that allows role players to feel like they matter during an 82 game season when everybody in the building knows that guys like Kobe, MJ, Shaq, and Pippen can do what they want, when they want to. Teams without top end talent don't use it because their role players actually have to be counted on to make up for broken possessions and to deal with the pressure that arises in high-leverage situations.
For the Wolves, this dilemma plays itself out with a team that can perform reasonably well during portions of the game that are distinctly not high-leveraged. You can get away with your wings running to the corner and standing there waiting for kickouts during the first 30 or so minutes of the game. Not so much when it matters. Instead of asking players to run plays throughout the game that actually would be meaningful practice for the type of action that is useful in high-leverage situations, Kurt Rambis has his guys playing a type of ball that is almost completely alien to the entire damn league. Is it any wonder that this team folds late? Is it any wonder that they do not have a go-to set or a duo that can run a reasonable two-man game down the stretch? Hell, they don't even have a reasonable way to work the ball in and out.
The Wolves jumped out to an early lead because they shot an amazing 65% eFG for the better part of 3 quarters. That's it. When things started to tighten up they literally had no functional NBA system to fall back on. They ran the same plays and the shots simply didn't fall at a high enough rate to make up for the fact that they run an ego-management system without big enough egos (and talents) to make it all click. What I wouldn't give for Dwane Casey to be coaching this team.
On the personnel side, while this year's squad looks like it should be different than past versions of Wolfdom (hooray long and bouncy athletcism!), take a look at 2008's roster and compare it to this year's team. After all of the change we have seen over the past few years, we're still left looking at a squad that is a bunch of mid-level (at best) players surrounding two guys that matter. In 08 it was Big Al Jefferson and Kevin Love. This year it's Love and Michael Beasley. Does a rookie Wes Johnson really bring more than Mike Miller? is the Foye/Ollie/Carney perimeter trio really that much more/less productive than Flynn/Ridnour/Brewer? If you count yourself in the "this year has more potential" camp, do you really believe this coaching staff can make the most out of it with either player development or with the offensive and defensive schemes they run? 2 guys that matter surrounded by a bunch of interchangeable parts. Same as it ever was.
The personnel and system streams cross themselves in terrible ways when you look over at the Utah Jazz and Jerry Sloan (who passed Pat Reilly as the 3rd most winningest coach with his 1,211st career victory) and think about how it is possible that he is able to find a way to make it all work with Al Jefferson playing a pick and roll game next to a guy who is distinctly Kevin Love sized. Big Al even worked it on defense down the stretch, ending the game with 7 blocked shots.
Random thoughts:
- The Wolves had everything working for them in this game. For the first time since I don't know when the refs seem to be trying to give the good guys a victory, they shot the lights out, they got competent wing play, and so on and so forth. Yet, despite all of this, it became obvious to every person in the comment thread with about 8 minutes to go that they were going to lose.
- The good guys were unspeakably dumb down the stretch. Martell Webster used up all of his early-game good will by fouling a defensive rebounder after a missed shot, Luke Ridnour blew a fast break that would have put the team up by 7, Luke tried a quick-trigger three pointer when it was absolutely uncalled for, Webster fouled a guy on a dunk...the list goes on and on.
- For the first time in recent memory, Kurt Rambis actually designed an inbounds play that worked: a 3 point play for Webster. Unfortunately, he went back to this well when the game was on the line and after Michael Beasley had shown himself to get whatever he wanted against a 5-foul Milsap. For all of the talk about grooming Beasley to be an Alpha Wolf, he was used as a screen on the one play that mattered more than any other. That's almost as inexcusable as not calling a timeout the other night. I'm sure Kurt will come up with a story about how Phil Jackson thinks that sort of thing is totally cool.
- As poorly (and as stupidly) as he played down the stretch, it was kind of cool to see Webster play like he did for the better part of 3 1/2 quarters.
- Kurt Rambis is now 21-90 as the Wolves head coach.
- I think it's obvious that I'm not a big fan of David Kahn, but I think his biggest test going forward is to realize that Rambis isn't the right guy for the job and pull a Sam Presti by firing his version of PJ Carlesimo early enough for it to matter in the long run. If you really are all-in on Ricky Rubio (more on this below), you can't let this guy near another young point guard. If you keep Rambis for Rubio, you might as well hire Larry Brown and let him coach Darko and 11 rookies. This team isn't the best roster in the league but it also isn't worth only 6 wins. The chef is butchering the meal and it's ok to admit you were wrong about his talents as long as you do it before it's too late. That, to me, would be a sign of growth and hope for the POBO. Although, maybe POBO and the chef are tied at the hip and...well, something has to change. If they lose against Cleveland...
#5 ME (via Wile E. Coyote): How is the team planning to define success next year? From a fan perspective, if next year is not about trying to win games and put the most competitive rotation on the floor, I will not watch. I cannot stand another year of abstract player evaluation, zero accountability for wins, and a general tank-a-thon to yet another draft.
CW: We've got to compete for a playoff spot next year. That is success on the court and with the potential of Rubio the year after, and one more round of free agency, and lotto in the event that we don't make the playoffs; all that being said, I think we will compete for the playoffs next year at this time and if we do not, I will be very disappointed. With this comes expectations of attendance. I think we should be averaging 16k people again.
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just got home from the game
good game until the final few minutes…I think a top high school point guard would be better than jonny. Just yesterday, I was thinking Rambis should play him more, but he just looks terrible.
flynn is a 2 guard
in a 1 guard body. oh and he cant play enough defense to keep him on the court at any position.
cant believe kahn said he was a strong defender.
next thing you'll be saying...
…that Wes Johnson has a bad handle and doesn’t dominate like it seems he should.
Two for two on missed lottery draft picks for Mr Kahn. But it only takes one big hit in the lottery to make a genius of a GM, let’s hope that’s Rubio.
Although
to be fair – if you put Jonny and Wes in a Nellie ball system, they’d be dropping 35+ combined points every night. System matters for these guys, and yes, Kahn whiffed on two guys who need a good system (well, only one whiff, really, as there was no system in place for when Jonny was drafted, but that’s neither here nor there).
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
People often say this as though it's obviously true
but I’m not so sure. And even if they did score a ton of points in Nellie ball, would it win any games? But I do agree with the larger point that Wes and Jonny could be used better.
by Madison Dan on Dec 23, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Are we reading the right tea leaves, there?
Glen’s would be the face to watch.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'm not having the negativity of some
1. I would think from a Stats perspective. The way they keep blowing these games isn’t sustainable over the long-term.
2. If the talent isn’t quite there. The Wolves have two potential pieces on the way (Rubio and 2011 Pick) that could make the difference in a lot of these games. As opposed to last year’s trainwreck.
3. The Hollinger Power Rankings had the Wolves at 25. They might move up after today. If you figure they were the worse team in Basketball. This type of improvement to about the 23rd-25th Team is noteworthy. The Hope is they can be a middle of the pack team in 2010-2011.
4. I have a hard time calling for Rambis head considering the roster instability over his Coaching tenure. I would at least want to see it through into January when the Schedule lightens up.
This kind of game is exactly
why point differential is not as important as win/loss.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
Unless you want to maximize your predictive power
In which case, it is still proven to be more important than win/loss.
You might say that this is the type of game that would mislead point differential, or that the Wolves are a team that the normal rules of point differential don’t apply to, or that it’s really hard to get excited about a loss that was close enough to improve the Wolves’ SRS. Any of that I could agree with. And that could be what you meant. I don’t know.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 23, 2010 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I guess all of your second paragraph is pretty much right on.
Watching the game, it never seemed like the Wolves were better than the Jazz. It just seemed like the Jazz focused on the 4th, turned up their game and went right past us. To me, that signifies that we’re a lot worse than the final score suggested.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
They switched the flip
It’s the most disturbing thing about the losses this year. Opposing teams can still turn it on at will against them.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Under what circumstances can a team have this done to them?
A subjective observer exhausted by standing around all night might suggest that teams with terrible point guard play are particularly susceptible to having the opposing defense turn up the pressure, or something…. I know that’s what I used to say during that whole season I spent wondering if we’d be able to draft Derrick Rose and solve our PG problem, anyway.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Personally, I think the players panic.
It’s all good when they’re up big, but every solid NBA team is going to make a run. It’s inevitable. The good teams know how to adapt and keep a run from turning into a comeback. Right now, we tense up, we make even dumber plays than normal, and we can’t execute on offense.
That’s my theory anyway.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
One could say that was PG play generally, or simply youth.
Either of which applies here, of course.
With the time I’d try to think of a really comparable team that either did or didn’t come around and start knocking off wins….
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
This one then.
The Wolves are a team that the normal rules of point differential don’t apply to.
This is the statement that really defines the Wolves this season to me. The theory behind point differential being better than win/loss is that, historically, a team being well above or below average in very close games has little predictive power.
With the Wolves, it seems like our 1-10 record in close games absolutely is predictive. It’s not bad luck. It’s not going to even out. 10 – 1 absolutely tells the story better than point differential ever could, because a close game is a loss every single time.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
A close game against whom?
I don’t have time to walk through the schedule. A close game facing another young team – will they cave? Didn’t the Clippers win feature that memorable Beasley shot?
Is this the trite “veteran teams can close” phenomenon, and are we just watching an extremely young team?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
A) Yes, extremely young
B) we also lost the Sacto game, Charlotte game, and a Spurs game late (games we arguably “should’ve” won).
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
To be fair
the predictive power of point differential is very, very good. However, it’s within a range of around +/- 2 or 3 games. That’s a fairly wide spread, with each year providing a handful of ‘noise’ teams that, in a historical outlier, would lie further than one standard deviation outside of the norm. Does that make sense?
On a game by game basis, point differential doesn’t really tell us much at all about the game, as it can be hijacked by one guy getting hot or injured or whatever. Over the course of the season, however, it is very predictive.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
I honor this response.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
About Holliner's Power ranking
He had us at 25 BEFORE we got blown-out by the lowly Clippers also….
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 22, 2010 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
Well, in our defense....
…..we opened the season so far off his chart we practically needed our own category. I think our rating was in the 70s at one point (compared to the 90 that CLE is sitting on in last place now)
So the mere fact we’re not dead last anymore is progress, whoever faint it may be
I was just commenting on our ranking of 25 which will actually go down since it has yet to take into account our disaster against a horrible Clippers which far offsets barely losing to Utah
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 22, 2010 11:56 PM CST up reply actions
Too bad the 2011 Draft
is garbage, they’re isn’t one transcendent player in this next year’s draft besides maybe Kyrie Irving, and he’s another PG.
by CrushingSkulls on Dec 23, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
I agree. I love the draft
but I’ve never been less excited about it. Maybe I’ll learn to like some of the prospects.
I much more excited for the 2012 Draft
with guys like Quincy Miller, Michael Gilchrist, Austin Rivers, and Marquis Teague, but oh that’s right we won’t have a pick :(
by CrushingSkulls on Dec 23, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
So is a loss in Cleveland the end of the line for Rambis?
The Wolves will have lost to a terrible team and fallen behind last season’s pace if that happens. Something’s got to change.
Although as it stands, a win isn't exactly an ringing endorsement of Rambis either.
The Wolves would be 7-24, exact same record as last season through 31.
It would be a very interesting move
for reasons beyond what we see on the court. Think of this way – the chairman of one of the most important governing boards in the NBA fires his Head Coach on the eve of a new collective bargaining agreement (a HC still owed, what, $5 million on his contract)? One might assume then that Laimbeer would take over as coach and thus the staff would remain the same, but what if Taylor went and hired Casey back (hypothetically speaking)? Would he hire his own staff or make do for a year?
A move to fire Rambis now, before the collective bargaining talks happen, would cost Taylor a lot of money – the guaranteed contract, the contract for a new coach (which together could total $6-7 million at a minimum), potentially hiring new coaches, etc. The silver lining, actually, is that while the team has invested some high draft picks in potentially questionable players, those same questionable players could have very high value (still) to other teams in addition to having high value for us if we simply ran a system more conducive to their talents. This is a team with a roster and pieces/assets that has to be among the most attractive in the league for rebuilding purposes – you’ve got Kevin Love, you’ve got a 20 ppg scorer in Beasley, you’ve got solid players like Martell and Wes and Ellington and Brewer (who could either stay or go), you’ve got a scoring point in Jonny, you’ve got a potentially high value (in a trade) big man in Pek, and you’ve still got Rubio coming over. Supposing we land a top three pick again this year and can draft Perry Jones – we’d be set to become the Celtics-lite! (Rubio as Rondo, Martell as Ray Allen, Beasley as Paul Pierce, and Love/Jones as an amalgam of Perkins/KG).
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Could care less about the result in Cleveland...
I am 100% sure after 1 1/2 years that Kurt Rambis is the WRONG guy for this franchise.
In other news, David Kahn is also 100% responsible for not hiring a coach before the 2009 draft, drafting the worst PG ever taken in the Top 10 (as if you didn’t already know that was Flynn), passing up a guy (Curry) that would have been perfect for the system for the coach he didn’t hire yet wanted to run, and then being an arrogant asshole on top of it all.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Why stop at the top 10?
Is there a worse PG taken in the first round? Because I gotta say, my stock answer to this question had been Jeff Teague, but he was looking pretty sharp when I watched him play the Celtics last week on TNT.
Check the list. If it isn’t Teague, you have to go all the way down to the 42nd pick, one Patrick Beverly of Ukraine to find a PG definitively worse than Jonny Flynn.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I think he meant ever, like in the history of the draft.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
Ah, I see that now.
Now that’s some hyperbolic negativity I can get behind. No qualms here.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Man I wish it was hyperbolic...
But Jonny Flynn is historically, comically BAD. Just for a goof, watch him on defense for 5 straight possessions. It’s hilarious.
He switches off his man for no reason. He sags off his perimeter man by 10 feet to help down low on guys that are 1 foot taller than him. He goes under screens that aren’t actually screens…they’re guys running a play 10 feet away from him. He actually looks backward and takes his eye off the ball, when his man has the ball, thus allowing his man to blow past him.
More hilarity later…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Jay Williams comes to mind as being worse than Flynn
not for the same reason, obviously.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
If I wasn't such an empathetic soul...
I would buy Jonny a motorcycle right about now…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Will Avery
Worst pick ever. What’s worse, I said prior to the draft that he was the worst ever and that really only came out because he wouldn’t be able to start on his own college team once the freshman (Jay Williams) arrived on campus. McHale drafts him 14th.
You can't dust for vomit.
They won't fire Rambis
Rambis signed a four year contract so if they fire him they will have to pay off two and a half years. I don’t see that Glen Taylor will do that, its too expensive.
by Beancounter CPA on Dec 23, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
You know, Stop-n-Pop has said "kill piggy" a few times,
and so far I’m perfectly happy having some ambiguity about whether that means Kahn or Rambis.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
My Evaluation
Of this team doesn’t consist at this point of time in Wins and Losses. I might be denounced as “Insane”. The reality is the Offensive Rating has gone from 6 Points per 100 Possesions below League Average to about 2.5 Points.
This sounds minor but It speaks to some serious Offensive improvement from last year. Hopefully next year- they’re top half of the league. This also makes it hard for me to rail against the system.
My question is “What should be reasonable expectations of progress?”
6-24 makes it really easy to rail against the system.
Reasonable progress would be being better than last season. Through 30, the record is the same. This summer, they shouted from the rooftops how much better they were, but the results are the same. Something is amiss.
"What should be reasonable expectations of progress?"
Taking those statistical improvements you cited, and turning them into wins…
Also, I’d like to see you post the defensive equivalents of those stats. Those might also be instructive of why we suck.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Agree with the thought
Even if this team only ends up with a five more wins than last season, the team is significantly better. The team was dreadful last season, now they are losing close games. It is progress. Maybe next year they rise to mediocre. Is that exciting, maybe not, but it’s the way it usually works.
agreed that we are far more competitive
The reason in my mind is the players. We are drastically improved there from last year.
Dad always said that if u win easy then you have better players but if you win by two then you have a better coach. Sloan is great but to lose this many games in the final minutes looks bad on Rambis
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Dec 23, 2010 8:49 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
One other major improvement
Last season, the Wolve’s best hope was playing in Spain. Now they have a legit All-Star candidate playing PF. That’s major progress. Love deserves most of the credit, but Rambis forcing him to play hard last season may also be showing dividends right now.
I'm starting to sway your direction on Rambis
I have defended him, and I do think he brings some positives to the table. Would Love be quite this good at this stage if not for Rambis’s tough love approach? Would Darko even be in the league? He has given Beasley the green light, which we all wanted, but…
The last few minutes tonight were abysmal again, and they again failed to foul, and again failed to draw up good plays in crunch time. I was actually annoyed after Rambis called that timeout late, Beas was rolling. I would not make the move in season, but if the team fails to eclipse 20-23 wins I would fire him.
I'm intrigued by the rebounding ratio of Love and Beasley.
I keep noticing how if Love gets “limited” to about 10 rebounds, both he and Beasley become 20-10 guys.
Give BEAS (Peace, for all you slowheads) a chance ;)
Wesley Johnson is man crush worthy. But only when he's making shots.
Super Beas > You
Beasley can rebound....
Yeah he’s not as great as Love with his positioning and rate…but he’s not too shabby.
Yeah, Beasley was a monster on the glass in college.
Averaged 26 and 12. But his role on this team as a SF and a go-to scorer has significantly reduced his rebounding. But he probably should get at least 8 rebounds per night. I’d like to see more of his put back DUNKS.
Give BEAS (Peace, for all you slowheads) a chance ;)
Wesley Johnson is man crush worthy. But only when he's making shots.
Super Beas > You
If the opponent uses 2 to box out Love
BEasy gets some boards.
Easy to see
by WinTheLottery on Dec 23, 2010 7:55 AM CST up reply actions
Our team is young, yes...
…but it’s hard to see many signs of serious improvement potential from our players.
Johnson and Webster are already 23 and their improvement, therefore, won’t be stratospheric, just subtle.
Darko is already 25, so this decent defense and awkward offense likely represents close to his peak in value.
Beasley is a gunner who eats possessions at a below-average efficiency because he doesn’t draw fouls, a skill that’s typically difficult for players to magically develop over time.
Johnny Flynn, according to PER and Win Scores, actually costs his team wins when he’s on the court due to his extremely high turnover rate and low efficiency in scoring (also because he doesn’t draw fouls), so any improvement he makes will have to be drastic to even get him back to average.
Luke Ridnour is 29.
Koufos, Telfair, and Hayward are disasters.
Bottom line: Rubio and this vaunted 2011 first round pick better be fucking incredible. Right now this team is Kevin Love and diaper runoff and my hopes for natural improvement from our baby poo are dim.
I disagree with you about all of that, except for the ages of the players.
Koufos, Telfair = disasters? Who ever said they had huge improvement potential?
Beasley has been better at drawing fouls. Funny you leave out his age but include Ridnour’s.
Sloppy structure on my part
Fair critique.
However, I wasn’t intentionally disguising Beasley’s or Flynn’s age. I guess I was just trying to illustrate that his and Flynn’s limitations aren’t necessarily the kind that experience will naturally wash away.
by Waff on Dec 22, 2010 11:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Slight disagreement
IIRC, basketball players peak age 25-27 (as opposed to baseball players who peak 27-29), so there is some merit to your concern.
But Love, Beasley, Johnson and Webster are all under 25, Darko is 25, but has played little and Flynn…well Flynn is Flynn. So improvement still seems likely for all 5 of those players, some will be dramatic, some will regress or flatline, but I think there is still reason for hope and excitement.
Put it another way, if we had the exact same players two years further along in their career and development I think we would have a much better record, perhaps even shockingly so. Closing out tight games is very much a skill that players develop with experience.
And all of this doesn’t count Rubio or the high draft pick we’ll be getting this next draft because of how few wins we are picking up. :)
why we won't fire rambis
1. money. 1+ years into a 4-year contract? i don’t think so.
2. rambis and the assistants have recognizable names = good for marketing.
3. rambis and the assistants are the only legitimate people in the organization if you are the national media.
4. rambis has some cache’ being an ex-laker. this along with the coaching “stability” may be the only way we get rubio to play here.
5. kahn hired rambis. there has to be some stubbornness admitting you were wrong.
glen is just not going to chance losing more of the fan base and the possibility of getting rubio. kahn knows this too.
it just isnt going to happen this season.
oh and larry brown?
come on snp.
not only is that guy cryptonite to our young team, he is also the most overrated coach in league history. you even mentioned him and darko in the same sentence for the lulz.
i'd say that rambis is the most overrated coach ever...
…since he’s 21-90 and there are still people who think he shouldn’t be fired. any rating other than ‘fired’ is a gross overrating!!!
by davechisholm on Dec 23, 2010 1:52 AM CST up reply actions
One more reason
Looming lockout next year. A coaching change will have minimal effect this season, and there’s no reason to bring in a new coach until the labor issues are resolved.
If you look at Wes Johnson’s December Split- There is improvement there. Beasley and Love are still 21. I’m not the biggest Jonny Flynn fan but he’ll play better than he has. The Bobby Jackson comp thrown out by Hollinger is reasonable upside.
He also needs to be utilized better
It’d be interesting to see how he performs in a more conventional system. This definitely doesn’t play to his strengths. Like S-n-P said in the draft thread, he was a game changer in college, and although there are adjustments from that to the NBA, it shouldn’t be this big of a drop just from that
He simply needs to shoot as agressively/assertively as Ridnour or Brewer
We need him to take those shots and attack. He can do it. Soon he will.
He tries too hard to “make the right play.”
Agreed
I’m trying to not to post about how Stephen Curry would fit in the Triangle?
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 22, 2010 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
Or how Jerry Sloan would work with Curry and Love
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Even with all of the injuries? I doubt it.
Sloan has a lot of wins because he has (arguably) the best point guard in the
NBA (4 of ours suck), he has Millsap, Miles & now Jefferson. Deron Williams
has a lot of guys that convert his assists. Except for Jefferson, these guys
have played together for awhile, while our guys have been injured, are getting
to know one another, and, really, we only have two guys you can call stars.
Our PGs wilt under pressure. That’s why we’ve lost some of these close
games against superior teams – that, and the injuries. Sloan would have
the same problems with a patchwork line-up out there, with guys rotating
on the disabled list. I think, considering all that, we have given some of the
top teams sacres even though we haven’t been full strength all year. That
last game was lost on mistakes by Webster and Ridnour, plus Love was
on the bench with 5 fouls. How can you get on a winning roll with a hodge
podge line-up of starters/bench players every night, and it’s different ones
every night? Cut this team and the coach some slack. They’ve been winning
gams for three quarters (most games) and only fold at the end because
they do not have top talent ball handlers. It’s more of a personnel problem
thatn coaching or ‘system’. After all, the ‘sysrem’ has produced a lot of
offense, and the coaches and players add new tweaks very so often.
The last few games we had no interior defense, so it was slamma-jamma
time; why? We didn’t have Darko or Tolliver available, and Love and Beasley
are still trying to learn defense. They know what to do, they just aren’t
executing. Kevin’s not really 6’10", he’s more like 6’8", and Beasley is
a wiry 6’9". We had to start Koufos, for Pete’s sake, who averages what?
2 minutes a game? I don’t know whether to add Pek to that mix, but he is
a big interior guy. He’s been out for awhile. Give this team and the coaches
a break ‘til they have a complete team. Injuries have been a disaster for us,
especially as young as we are. Wes Johnson is just now starting to get
the ’feel’. before the last couple of games he was AWOL. The team needs
time.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
+10000000000000000000000
Good to hear a voice of reason.
Just a quick reminder...
….that everyone comes here to talk about the team in their own way. Some root, some analyze, all are generally reasonable.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Kahn's Worst Sin
Was conducting a Draft without considering the Basketball Philosophies he wanted in place in a Coach. Up-Tempo is not a Philosophy.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 22, 2010 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
Here's where I place most of it on Taylor
The penny-pinching put them in a situation where the hiring process was strung out for so long and they got a guy who I’m not sure had a basketball philosophy other than “Donnie Walsh and Larry Brown think it’s cool”. To his credit, he went out and got Ronzone, but I don’t know if that’s Kahn’s sin or if it was more driven by the fact that they didn’t have a guy lined up on the first day after the season.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Think Dennis Lindsay would give us a second chance...
….if we threw rocks at his window and sang him a love song?
I'm doing that for Dwane Casey
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Never noticed till now...
…how many yards of flowing cloth went into his get-up. Did he just wander off the set of Lawrence of Arabia?
I think the costumer designer may have gone a touch outside of realism in designing that one. Probably the right call though.
I miss the days
When a guy could wear an elastic waistband and look kind of cool. ;)
I'd really love to know the low-down on what made him run for the hills
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Zgoda said it was about control
Here’s what Jerry told me about the search:
Lindsay wanted unilateral decision making power, Taylor wanted everything run by him first
Pfund it was money
Penn looked like he was just playing us
Dunno if Cho was every actually in consideration
Right
there’s the wish list and the reality. Those carping about Rambis (incessantly, I might add) like to throw out names but do those named really want to sully their reputations with a rebuilding project for a franchise that hasn’t come close to the playoffs in years?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
A little different look
Lindsay wanted to replace everyone to change the culture. Taylor had lots of money tied up in the 2nd year of the FO staff and coaches – plus he still held out hope that McHale would coach. He wanted less immediate transition for monetary reasons. That scared off Lindsay who questioned (rightly so) Taylor’s commitment to turn things around. It was not really about “unilateral decision making power” as Jerry stated.
This, by the way, lead to some very negative vibes within the NBA community. Lindsay is hugely respected – when word got out why he backed away – our job became far less attractive.
Pfund was simply asking way too much based on his track record. He was not all that serious of a candidate.
Penn and Pritchard played us like a concerto. In fact, Taylor was quite willing to share info with Portland that ultimate lead to their firings. Taylor was pissed.
Cho was not very interested.
by Just A Fan on Dec 23, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can we get a new owner?
Could we get the Pohlads to buy the team and install Lindsay as their GM? Sounds like a “Twins way” Timberwolves marriage made in heaven. Lindsay would be our Terry Ryan.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Can anyone confirm that Pfund was even a real candidate?
All the public overtures were from Randy Pfund toward the Wolves. I don’t remember noticing anyone in the Wolves’ organization (such as it was) even having his name on a short list. That was about on Hoopshype Rumor Page level.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
We called his agent
but his contract demand was astronomical (I don’t remember exactly but it was like 5 years and 4M each) that he was never considered.
Yes, I love the fact that we draft Bobby Jackson 2.0 in the Top 10
Fuck this team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by CrushingSkulls on Dec 23, 2010 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
Bobby Jax was alright, man. Maybe not top ten alright, but certainly better than half the guys that get taken in the top ten each year.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
The tough part of any draft pick is getting over where you picked them
And figuring out what to do with them. Flynn has a lot of potential. He can be a valuable member of this team. Anyone who want to rip him apart for not looking sharp 5 games into his 2nd season with a whole new team around him, is just not seeing the big picture.
Our whole focus should be on how we can help the team/players we have, now. It’s obvious Flynn isn’t confident and comfortable with his role on the team and how to play with the teammates. That takes time. There is no shortcut.
Bobby Jackson played tenacious defense.
I’m not seeing any resemblance to Jonny Flynn there.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
All the firing Rambis talk is really stupid
Seriously. There are so many reasons we lost the game (Love uncharacteristically missing a lot of layups, Martell playing like a bag of crap at the end of the game, Wes only taking 8 shots when he was hot, Beasley passing the ball way to much when he had better shots, Darko’s speed fouling, etc.). Rambis is pretty low on the list in my book.
Thinking a coaching change would change everything is like thinking if we got a whole new line up it would all change.
Get over it guys. We are young and young teams make bad plays when it counts. That’s what happened. That’s what will happen again. We came close. Played a good game. Played some good D. But once again had all the wrong people shooting when it counts. We’ll learn. Kurt will learn. We’re getting closer.
BE PATIENT!
by Rodman99 on Dec 22, 2010 11:28 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Kurt better learn faster
I’m as patient as they come, but Rambis epically failed in the final few minutes tonight, do not see how that can be ignored. What is his deal with the late game fouling?!? At least the third time the team has failed to foul at the proper time with him just sitting there daydreaming.
Agreed
I was at the game and as I live in the UK this will likely be my only game until next year. I will admit that I was as disheartened by that Clippers loss as anyone, but don’t think we should blow up this roster as constant turnover is not going to solve things. At least give these guys some more time, as they are all very young and have time to grow together. Remember that the year before OKC made the playoffs (2009-10) they picked 3rd in the draft i.e. they sucked. Give them some time; if B-Easy can play as aggressively and efficiently as he did tonight on a consistent basis and Wes sorts out some handles that alone will produce more victories.
A coaching change is probably warranted, though. This offence does not fit our players and the late game meltdowns, particular that non-fouling fiasco in Denver and then calling the play for Martel tonight even though Beasley had been getting whatever he wanted, are beginning to be inexcusable. I’d go with a new coach – Lambeer – and see how it shakes out for the rest of the year. At least Lambeer has a successful track record as a head coach, albeit in the WNBA
He said last night that Martell was 1 option..
not the only one. I have no problem with a 6 year vet who has shown he can shoot the ball taking that shot. I have alot of problems with what Martell did afterwards on the foul.
I vote this:
“Thinking a coaching change would change everything is like thinking if we got a whole new line up it would all change.”
As the most ironic statement of the post-McHale era.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
NY just spent 2 freakin' years calling for Mike D'Antoni's head
He did a lot of stuff that made you wonder how good he was. We’re all that talk now? Stat and Felton are vets who came in, all the other guys look better now, and now D’Antoni looks like a great coach.
We knock down a few shots, and Rambis suddenly looks great.
They did knock down a few shots
They knocked down an amazing number of shots. They shot an eFG of 65% for a large chunk of the game and then the temporary magic ran out and they ended up at .482, which is exactly their average for the season. D’Antoni has 631 wins as an NBA coach with a .545 winning percentage:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/dantomi01c.html
Just like the Wolves reverted to their mean, D’Antoni is doing what is expected of him in New York without the anchor of Isiah Thomas on the roster composition. There is nothing in Rambis’ resume or performance to suggest a jump, just like there is nothing on the Wovles’ roster to suggest a jump in them making more shots over an extended period of time. Rambis is a long, long, long way from looking great.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Yeah, D'Antoni is a great coach.
2 straight trips to the WCF, and he had to fight injuries both times (Joe Johnson in 05, Amare in 06).
And isn’t that comparison even more damning since Mike D overcame injuries to stars to come within 2 games of the finals twice, but we should withhold judgement on Rambo until Anthony f’n Tolliver is back?
He also had to overcome some of the worst NBA officiating ..
….outside of Dallas’ should-have-been-championship Finals and the Kings/Lakers. As for Tolliver, if he’s the lynchpin to success, than…well, I don’t know. I don’t know what to say right now. It’s just sad.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
To be fair, though
D’Antoni is very suspiciously like Phil Jackson in that his career winning percentage when he has Steve Nash is .707 (232 – 96). Without Steve Nash it is only .372 (113 – 191). For those keeping track, Steve Nash accounts for just over two thirds of D’Antoni’s wins will playing in just over half of D’Antoni’s career (coaching) games. Without Nash (and even Amare), D’Antoni is a poor coach.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
I think every coach looks like a poor coach when they have bad players
Larry Brown obviously sucks now too.
Look at the plays that lost us the game down the stretch
I’ll go ahead and blame Rambis for Martell’s three. But MW’s blocking call with one foot 2 feet inside the circle…awful. Ridnour freaked out a little. Beasley was awsome. And Al Jefferson scored buckets on Love like he didn’t even exist. No resistance whatsover. No stops.
So how’s all that on Rambis? His team chocked. It’s on them.
"So how’s all that on Rambis?"
Because his team can only win when they shoot way over their heads and maintain it through 48 minutes.
We don’t run plays, we rely on our ‘talent’.
Seriously, we’re a mess on offense and defense. That’s coaching.
furthermore
Al going nuts on Love is exactly Rambis’ fault. Isn’t the coach the one who makes personel changes on the floor. Love on millsap and bradley on keralinko (?) Had me laughing from the start…
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Dec 23, 2010 9:04 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
bradley = Beasley
Stupid phone
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Dec 23, 2010 9:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
How is the stupid play...
…on the coach? Unfortunately, that’s probably Rambis’ best defense at the moment.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Come up with a worthy replacement
I’d like to hear this.
Mama, there goes that man!
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
I'm serious about Casey
I think we were all about Monty Williams for a while before Rambis was hired. I’d be happy with Elston Turner or Ty Corbin. Hell, give Tony Fritz a shot at the big time.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Monty Williams
Now there’s a guy who can roll with the punches. He actually found a way to make Emeka Okafor a scoring force. I have no idea how he pieced that roster together into something that’s working, but man…he has got that team together.
Darko's pretty much the same guy he's always been.
He’s just allowed to put up more shots now.
Oh no, this idea has taken hold...
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
It's true enough
The thing is he fits the current system and defends so much better than any center we’ve had before that he’s still an upgrade
It’s….I dunno….weird….
Pretty much.
His blocked shots and assists rates are better than his career averages, but he’s at his career averages or worse in everything else. Shooting is way down, turnovers are way up, rebound rate is slightly down.
this darko optimism is like an ague running through parts of minnesota.
im not sure ive ever seen anything like it.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
And if they have a crappy year fire them???
We are allowing Rambis to grow into the job. He’s not there yet. If he had CP3 running the point, we’d be singing his praises.
He doesn't..
…nor will he. Actually, we do kind of know how he’d coach with a superstar on the roster. Maybe Phil would come and save the day for the Wolves, too.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1999.html
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
The team completely tuned him out by season's end.
Leading to a famous blowup between him and Kobe in the playoffs that year.
And you know the circumstance
behind Kobe’s blow up, how?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Because "it was documented":http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Kurt-Rambis-in-Minnesota?urn=nba-181795
Everyone underachieved. Every damned one of them. Even Shaq, who put up fantastic (26 and 11) numbers. The team couldn’t defend a lick, it didn’t have an offensive identity despite being one of the best offensive teams in the NBA, and Rambis looked alternately clueless and hapless on the sidelines. The season culminated with Rambis angrily skulking out of a timeout during a playoff loss to the San Antonio Spurs, reportedly yelling “Fine! You coach the team!” to an apparently unmoved Kobe Bryant.
Who authored this piece?
Thanks for digging this up. If I recall Kobe was a bit of a prick in his early days.
“Alternatively clueless and hapless” on the sidelines with a 24-13 record? Seems like someone is making a judgment here.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
"in his early days"?!?
Kobe has ALWAYS been a prick.
Phil is just the rare zen-mind-fucker who can handle him. :)
Never mind
I followed the link (dah). Actually a pretty fair and grounded article by Kelly Dwyer.
I’ve seen this happen with overachievers a lot. A guy like Rambis who worked his ass off just to find a spot on the Lakers and elsewhere find it inconceivable that other players don’t have their same work ethic.
As Shaq, Kobe and others were kids then in men’s suits, their cavalier attitudes probably dumbfounded Rambis.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
That was Kobe's fault. He wouldn't listen to sense.
When Jackson came aboard he had the same problem with Kobe. Rambis & Jackson are on the
same page re: Kobe’s stubbornness. That was
all on Kobe. Even Kobe admits it. Kobe’s on the
Jackson-Rambis page. He now recognizes his
immaturity in those days.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
That certainly is the glass 1/2 full view
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
?
most teams would look better with CP3, but even he doesn’t make a coach immune from being fired.
We can judge Rambis for the results that we’ve had on the floor the past 2 years based on the rosters….our roster is more talented than last year (our bench is much better) but we’re not getting it done.
Would our record look better if we weren’t 1-10 in games decided by 6 or less?….yeah, but these close losses don’t feel like 50/50s that bounced away from us. We’re folding like a house of cards when the game gets tight at the finish and everyone here knows it.
For the record, I don’t think Rambis will get fired this season, but he needs to adjust and do it soon, or he’s going to become the symbolic sacrifice in the name of progress.
Every young team goes through this
Veteran good teams keep it close and take care of business at the end. It’s been like this forever. The fact that 10 of our losses are 6 pts or less is a very promising sign.
The flip side of that..
….is that last year’s team had 6 losses of 20 or more. This year is already at 5.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
What's the point of comparing to last year?
We have a good young team that is improving. Is it that hard to see?
I totally agree with 'young'.
Not sure about ‘good’ or ‘improving’ though…
Yea, the team is surprising improving
but the depths it fells to last season makes the improvement unremarkable at this point.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
the funny thing is that we aren't even improving!!!
it’s a shinier car with the same bummer engine. :-(
by davechisholm on Dec 23, 2010 1:57 AM CST up reply actions
Honestly
Yes. I really have a hard time seeing it. They’re getting the same results in a different way. Kahn is collecting guys in a similar manner to McHale, instead of Shaddy/Foye at the combo guard, he’s got Webster/Johnson at the SF. He has a very specific way of thinking the roster should be put together for a system that only seems to exist in his head (McHale wanted to recreate the 86 Celtics, Kahn is a Walton-era Blazer fan) and the team’s wonderful marketing department is left to tell us how this year is going to be United in a Running Blueprint 3.0. This team is numbingly predictable and familiar to what we’ve seen for a long, long time.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Maybe you should root for the Thunder
before you work yourself into a coronary.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I remember writing a letter to the Strib in the late 80s
Encouraging Ratner and Wolfenson to avoid naming them the Polars at all costs. I figure it’s an addiction at this point. Thankfully, I’ve gotten used to this sort of play and unlike the Vikings who seem to rip out their fans’ hearts every decade or so, the Wolves are more like a slow burn that is doable with healthy eating, yoga, and a daily sauna.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 23, 2010 12:57 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I also remember calling in to Chad and Barreiro..
…urging the team to stop the senseless debate between Calbert Cheney and JR Rider and just draft Allan Houston…so I’ve always been an insufferable ass when it comes to who they should pick ;)
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 23, 2010 12:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I lingered through the early MJ era
with the Bulls (was stationed in Chicago with American Airlines) and it was the same thing. The Bulls would play well for 3 3/4 quarters only to fall on their collective rear ends. Then they advanced to the playoffs only to get beat up by Bill Lambeer and the Pistons. It can be exasperating but eventually things will turn around.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
exactly
And the payoff for those like us who were in on a ground floor……….. will be awesome
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:05 AM CST up reply actions
I hope so
It doesn’t seem like it much, but I still love watching this team. I just wish we could at least get to a point where the off-the-court stuff wasn’t more of a talker than what is on the court. It’s kind of silly , but I think the most ridiculous thing about this this team is DJ Mad Mardigan. It’s like the ultimate expression of how far they’ve gone to try and make the experience enjoyable knowing full well that the stuff on the floor isn’t enough. Eventually, the disconnect swallows up even the most diehard fan.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Agree
DJ Mad Mardigan and the t-shirt tosses brings an unhelpful carnival atmosphere.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I long for the day
when the quality of play (and for that matter quality of fan) is such that the t-shirt toss isn’t source of the most fan volume and activity of the night.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 23, 2010 2:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
"You got alotta Flubber, but I love you brother!"
When Stanley Roberts dunked on Luc Longley and the Wolves defeated the Bulls for the first time. (1997-1998)
by kevinharlan on Dec 23, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Being a fan of this team
Is a matter of faith IMO. I can’t see much improvement as yet but I’m emotionally involved and believe that my emotional investment will payoff.
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:13 AM CST up reply actions
You know
Maybe you should repost a retrospective article from back in the days when KG was rollin’ and we were a top ten club in the NBA – just so, you know, all of us can see what a happy SnP who enjoys his team sounds like. ;)
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
I had tuned out.
The first Cassell/Sprewell year lost me. Win as they did, and I’d read the box scores in the paper…. It wasn’t as fun. It might have been Sprewell’s return to the Garden that did it, but at some point I started not caring that much about the Wolves just then.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Spot on SnP...
The constant disconnect between GM, Marketing, Coach, fans, is appalling. Putting together a competent roster is easy, yet this franchise has epically failed for decades…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
What's sad
is that Taylor over-compensated for his failure to remove McHale in time by missing out on Lindsay because he wanted total control. C’mon Glen – you should know this by now! Successful businesses are run by getting the best people you can and letting them do their jobs – empowering them to do their jobs. Lindsay was and still is the cream of the crop. I’d hate to start all over again, but a Ronzone/Laimbeer combo might work.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Come on B2B
This is the grass is greener thinking.
Martell knocks down the three and we’re all sitting here saying how we turned the corner and what a great team we have.
That was a 6 point swing.
What about Lindsay, tho?
Perhaps calling for a coaching change is rash, but if Glen really did pass on Lindsay because he wanted all things run by him (Taylor) first – well that strikes me as a clear over-compensation for simply letting McHale do whatever he wanted for all those years. The difference being that Lindsay is about as good of a GM prospect as there is in the league, with training and qualifications that far exceed anything McHale ever brought to the table (or Kahn for that matter). As a self made billionaire I would have expected Glen to appreciate that a bit more, but then again I would have expected Glen to fire McHale years before he did.
And maybe that’s the important point here – the Wolves are an ‘irrational’ endeavor for Glen – at base he doesn’t run them like his other businesses, and thus he does some screwy emotion based things like let McHale linger for far too long, hire Kahn instead of Linsday, allow McHale to fire Flip and Casey and hire Wittman, force Kahn to keep all of McHale’s old guys, etc etc. It’s a track record of a guy who starts off loving basketball (and KG), and then starts flipping back and forth between being emotional (keeping McHale, letting McHale take the lead on firing Flip and Casey), being rational (making McHale coach the team, getting a new GM), being emotional again (not hiring Lindsay because he’s not going to get burned by unilateral control again), being rational (hiring a pushover like Kahn), being emotiona (or perhaps irrational is a better term) and rational at the same time (forcing Kahn to keep McHale’s guys), and so on. Dude’s all over the map and this team clearly reflects that.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
I honestly don't know much about Lindsay
To say one way or the other. To me it’s seems like Kahn is heading to playing the POBO operations role and letting someone else be the GM. I’m fine with that.
Lindsey
11 years with the Rockets (‘96-’07), veep with Spurs since ‘07. Assists with their draft and everything else. Hasn’t been a reporter, so that’s something to keep in mind.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
LOL
Not going to deny he sounds impressive. But really I’m generally happy with our line-up. We need to hit a few more draft picks that’s for sure.
Take Flynn for example
Apparently he was dominating everyone in pre-draft camps. Curry wouldn’t work out for us (still not convinced he’s a legit PG). How can I fault him? We needed a PG and Rubio was a bold move. Yes I was a big fan of Lawson… but that points to a bigger problem with conventional wisdom and drafting… How does Lawson drop so low if he’s so good? How does that happen? A lot of GM miss these things every draft.
He and Curry
shared a bit of the same thing – everyone knew they were insanely skilled. The question was whether Curry was able to play point in the NBA, and whether Lawson was big enough to play point. Both were ‘diminished’ because of their size and lack of elite level physical tools or measurements (wingspan, height, speed, etc). In terms of ability those two guys were consistently ranked in the top five of that class, maybe even top three.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Curry didn't work out for the Warriors, either.
I think it’s working out alright for them.
I was just doing a bit more research
and I discovered this nugget that simply blows my mind: the Spurs currently have the best record in the league. Us? The second worst. Sigh…
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Yes but a lot of those wins
Come from guys around a long longer than 07. But… wouldn’t it be nice to be the team that finds the George Hill’s of the league?
Or Tony Parkers
or Manu’s, or Gary Neal’s, or dare I even say the DeJuan Blair’s?
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Interview recap
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
But this is sports
And regardless of what the philosophy is or who the players are, we have to allow the players to make the mistakes and grow into their potential. The same goes for Rambis. And you know what the crazy/agonizing/thrilling part of the whole thing? There’s no guarantee they’ll ever improve! Who know’s if Wes suddenly turns into the next Scottie Pippen or not? Or if Beasley suddenly blossoms into a superstar? Or if everything clicks inside of Rambis’ head? There are no guarantees!
But that’s the beauty of it. We get to root for them and hope for the best. As fans we can support them and do our part to be positive and give them our support. Give them the occasional kick in the pants. Or we can tear them down. It’s up to us.
Personally, I am choosing to support them. Because it’s a new year and a new team and a great group of young guys. To me, it’s more fun that way.
I completely get and respect that
I’m just not wired that way. I like to piece together puzzles and try and figure out how things will work their way out. I can’t look at Wes Johnson and imagine that he’ll be something I believe he’s not. For me, it’s like looking at a Rubik’s Cube and imagining it will turn into a Dinobot.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
He was on tonight
Wish he took 20 shots (instead of 8). And started attacking the basket when the defense got up in his face. I’ve got high hopes for him.
I can agree here
I am very much logic based and things of an emotional nature (in this case wishful thinking) are harder for me to grasp – so my mind tends to be pessimistic in the case of our Wolves. Yet still I somehow cling to a little bit of optimism with this team
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:20 AM CST up reply actions
That would be
one hell of a clever Dino-bot.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
I understand that perspective,
But we’re at a really key moment for the franchise’s future right now.
1. If we’re going to add a key player with our cap space we need to do it before the deadline. If we wait until after the season we won’t have the room anymore to add a significant contract, and the likelihood of the cap space just being used on in-house guys goes up exponentially.
2. We have 1 more high draft pick before we give our pick to the Clippers.
A lot is riding on the next couple of months, so we better make sure that if this is the horse we’re backing, its the right one.
by Simitar on Dec 23, 2010 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Very true
it’s kind of like the Vikings right now. The Wilf’s next choice for HC is huge because that team is about to be blown to hell – who do you keep? Who do you trade? Who do you let go? What’s their identity going forward post Favre, post TJax? Do they get a new stadium, or do they move? Many of those questions find their resolution (or the start of their resolution) with the Head Coach choice – choose the right guy and this team could really take off. Choose the wrong guy (or even the ‘safe’ guy), and the team could be left aimlessly wandering around, neither good nor awful. A lot is at stake.
That’s kind of how I see the Wolves right now – perhaps Kahn makes a trade for Iggy or Wallace and the Wolves suddenly seem to ‘get it’ on defense and quit falling apart late in games and we start winning at a .400 clip. And maybe Rubio comes over and suddenly this team really starts playing consistently like we know they can and it’s playoffs time. It’s within the realm of possibility, and Rambis and Kahn will look really smart for seeing that was going to happen.
On the flip side, perhaps we trade (or don’t trade) for one of those guys and miss out on Kahn’s last window. The team continues to win at a .250 rate while still struggling with defense. We get another top pick and draft Irving (another PG) while trying to bring Rubio over. We go into next year still struggling with who’s who in what role on this team – Irving, Jonny, and Rubio at the point; Martell, Wes, and Beasley at SG/SF; Love, Darko, and Pek at PF/C. We ‘improve’ to a 30 win club next season with more young, talented players who can never seem to quite put it together. If this is the case, then we will lament the fact that now was the time to make a move and we didn’t, setting the franchise back yet another 2-3 years (which perhaps they move to Seattle by that time?).
I think now is the time to begin asserting some specific outcomes for Rambis to achieve to ‘prove’ that he really can coach, like maybe some more wins or some other sort of improvement. It sounds unfair, and maybe it is, but it’s time to start putting up or shutting up.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
to be fair
The memphis, miami, orlando, houston swing of 20 point losses were at least together in one heap of failure. and early.
we’ve looked better since then, but we still have a bad habit of blowing double digit leads like nobodies business.
True
And I’m hoping that stretch of bad ball will eventually be something to laugh about.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 23, 2010 1:53 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
That would right...
A serious wrong. Perhaps we could arrange for him to kick McHale in the nuts a time or two to increase our karma…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I agree with your coach picks
Monty Williams was the guy I wanted
Tyrone Corbin has the Wolves history,
but is that a reprise of Sidney Lowe, then? If Glen hired him on the cheap I’d feel that way.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
He's also sat next to Mr. Sloan for a while
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Didn't he come from Utah before we had him in the expansion draft?
In general, borderline-starter players who’ve eked out decent careers are very much to my liking as coaches. Backup catchers and utility infielders make the best managers.
Just checked, and it’s the other way around; he went to the Jazz after us. Came from Phoenix in the expansion draft. He was a journeyman in the truest sense: played from ’85 to 2001, for 10 franchises, only repeating his stay in Atlanta.
The player Ty Corbin was? Would have started for us last year, and probably this.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Doesn't Rambis fit this description?
In general, borderline-starter players who’ve eked out decent careers are very much to my liking as coaches.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
by biggity2bit on Dec 23, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
I understand and was at least okay with the Rambis hire.
They wanted to have things both ways. Kurt R. had been that sort of player and assistant, he had defensive credentials after being “defensive coordinator” for the Lakers’ championship team, and on the other hand because of his relatively well-known name he could maybe keep young players’ heads with him despite losing for a while. To some extent I think the latter’s been true. Maybe Monty Williams, or Dwane Casey come to that, would have lost everyone completely last year when there wasn’t a dang wing on the roster worth suiting up.
My basic take is that the Rambis hire was reasonable. (I certainly would choose him above Mark Jackson, who’s proven absolutely nothing as a coach. Never been one, right?)
I’m mostly surprised by the degree to which Kurt Rambis has turned out to be, what’s the word… “doctrinaire” about a certain subset of the decisions he has to make as coach. Kahn, it’s pretty clear, was trying to hire Showtime, and maybe he got the tricycle without Tex Winter along to oil its axles. Rambis could have used some time away from the Lakers somewhere, working with someone like Adelman who wasn’t such a system coach.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Not a single double team on Al...
The entire 4th quarter. We watched Al for 5 years. He sucks when teams throw doubles at him. What did we do? Nothing. Kurt Rambis everybody…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
It's a good point.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
Has anyone asked Kurt about this?
Defensively, he seems to subscribe to “keep things vanilla, this is a young team.”
Relative to Flip Saunders, how basic is the barcode on Kurt Rambis’s defensive schemes?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
This is a fair question
But isn’t a good sign for us either. We can’t expect Love to be able to defend a guy who’s exactly his same size, speed, jumping ability who he spent two years playing against in practice? Yes Al has good moves, but come on. A little resistance Kevin. Not asking for much here.
If he wants to be the man, then man up. That was interesting subplot of the game. KLove was “the man” for the team this game. Beasley was setting him up and letting him take key shots. Just don’t think that’s his game. And for those who want to mention the 19 boards, I’d say a half dozen of them came on his own misses (which is both a good and bad thing).
Beasley however, played very within himself. Very solid, even after a slow start. (not going down the Love/Beas angle, just noticing what happened) Thought is was a very promising game from him.
People on this site like to give Love a free pass
When it comes to defense. They look at his numbers and say he doing all he can instead of watching his piss poor defense. Luke, Love and Beasley are bad defenders and wes is ok. Beasley has a chance to be an ok defender at the three. wes is playing out of position so it will take time for him to learn how to play D. David Thorp has said this same thing. http://www.awolfamongwolves.com/?p=323#more-323
it’s been clear that he’s still at one extreme of the defensive learning curve. "He doesn’t have elite level quickness," says David Thorpe, "and he doesn’t really have anticipatory skills at that position. And that’s primarily because he’s not really been a wing before, defending wings. And even if he was a wing player in college, which he wasn’t, he was also almost entirely playing zone, which is a very different movement than man-to-man." This goes a long way to explaining why, as we’ve discussed here before, Johnson is still struggling with the nuances of NBA defense. This applies to Beasley too.
And all the them are learning
There’s a difference between playing D, and playing D in a tie game at crunch time. Like Beas said, you can’t foul all the time (5 “and 1’s” in the 4th Q). There’s a learning curve for all of them.
And while I see Love’s limitations, I don’t see him as hopeless either. He’s a smart dude. He’ll figure out how to play some D. Nights like last night can be great teachers.
No, no one gives his defense a free pass you just like to bash Love at every opportunity.
Everyone knows or has accepted that he isn’t a very good defender but he can improve his defense he just has to want to, you just like to harp on all his negatives just so you can say let’s trade Love or put Beasley at the pf, even though he still isn’t as good as Love and hasn’t been at any point in their NBA careers.
We lost the game because of Defense
you dont give up 41 points in the 4th quarter and then expect to win. al jefferson scored most of his points when darko got in foul trouble. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=301222016. Luke cant stop anybody. This is why the wolves lost the game.
For what it's worth, Chuck...
I love reading your takes when you present it like this.
We all know what an easy cover Al Jefferson is, shame on Love for letting him score.
In all seriousness we know he’s a bad defender but his play isn’t why we lost the game, this team outside of him and maybe Beasley isn’t that good period.
Seriously. I didn't watch, but from what I'm reading here it sure sounds like
Rambis put Love on Jefferson one-on-one, and didn’t double Al Jeff much. Which power forwards in the game right now defend that consistently well, again?
Reading between the lines on these threads over the last week or so, it sure seems like Beasley reached a sort of breaking point as far as putting up his own shot too much, got some guidance from the staff, and has taken a few steps toward more well-rounded play. Those of us not seeing life through Chuck D’s personal blinders could probably see that as a modest positive step, if only the team had snuck a couple of wins out sometime lately. I wish this little subthread had stuck with Rodman99’s initial
Beasley however, played very within himself. Very solid, even after a slow start. (not going down the Love/Beas angle, just noticing what happened) Thought is was a very promising game from him.
.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Shouldn't Rambis know better than anyone,
that unless you have a long, athletic defensive stud, Al is going to score unless you double him?
Just leaving Love on him one-on-one was irresponsible coaching.
I agree
Coaches coach players execute or don’t.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
And poorly coached players...
Execute poorly…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Nonsense
Martell’s heat check was on the coaches? No
Crazy ‘and 1 fouls’ on obvious dunks was on the coaches? No
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
What we have here...
Is a context problem. I’m talking generalities…you’re talking specific plays. Not a good comparison.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Players execute
specific plays and get specific results (+/-)
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
What you fail to realize, Rodman99...
Is that you are now the 1,112, 969th poster to emphatically say…BE PATIENT!
Are you that lone candle, struggling against the wind? Or do all of us, who have been watching this shit for the last 20 years, actually have some perspective on this?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I've been watching this team for the last 20 years
I somewhat agree with Rodman99 but only somewhat.
But dismissing someone’s opinion in such an abrasive manner and arrogant manner doesn’t further the discussion at all.
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
He's not alone - Personnel and injuries have more to do with these losses than anything.
But we do have boneheaded collapses late. I put that on guys who are career back-ups
that are forced to try to play as well as stars – and they’re not stars. We have 4 point
guards that would not crack the starting line-up on a decent team. These guys make
a lot of mistakes when it counts. They are just adequate. More than coaching, just
imagine a good point guard like Deron Williams running this team on the floor. You
might get by with Ridnour/Telfair/Flynn during and up until crunch time, but you
need a guy like him then. That’s what wins close games like this. A top-notch
PG. After all, we outplayed these guys all night – then Deron settled his boys down
and started dismantling us one play at a time. If we’d had a good point, they’d
never have caught us.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Either you're wrong or the play-by-play is
http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=301222016&period=4
2:48 left, score says 94 – 101, a 7 point lead.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Whoops.
How did this reply end up here?
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Replies have been jumping all over the place.
It is pretty unnerving. For me it seems to have something to do with using multiple tabs (chrome) and not finishing posts in one sitting.
The logic flaw is that
These coach and players haven’t been playing here for the past 20 years.
If you try to turn around a company does the the boss say, “I’m giving you a year to turn around this company that’s been poorly run for 20 years. Why? Because the guys who’ve been in this position for the past 20 years sucked.”
Or if you’ve wanted a kid for 10 years do you say to your wife, “I want a freakin’ kid, we’re inducing after 3 months.”
Just doesn’t work that way.
Wes only taking 8 shots when he was hot, Beasley passing the ball way to much when he had better shots
Something tells me they are both doing what they are being asked.
Beasley passing up shots was always to a man in a better position to take the shot. Wes took shots he got in the O.
Both guys made the right plays most of the time and their numbers prove it. Sure, they could have done more to help us win, but at least they didn’t force too many bad shots or make too many dumb plays. It is progress.
reaction from de Blue Door:
well, de 2 people (including me) who cared about de wovles der: “THEY JUST CANT DO IT”. sad but true yall. sad but true.
MAYN HOL UP!
as well as Webster played
dat 3 pointer wuz juss FUCKING STUPID. terirble, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible coaching. we’re down one an you designing a three? i LOVE three pointaz more den anywun all id o iz jack dem up but mayn hol up, Rambis is starting to look like brad chidress.
MAYN HOL UP!
3'rd and 7 from de opponents 10 yard line
“lets run a draw to Gerhart cuz he had a 6 yard cary earlier dis drive” SMMFH
MAYN HOL UP!
I agree
But the other side is that if he did call that play for Martell, then that’s a big show of confidence in him, and it may have cost us this game, it will build him up for the long term. Who knows.
+1
Beasley is by far the best guy on the team. He needs to even more touches and they need to run more plays for him besides the “do it all yourself” play. When he comes of the screen and is moving when he gets the ball, he is unstoppable.
Needs to pull up before getting charges though.
Beas was killin Millsap at the end of the game
He was directly responsible for what? 6 straight points? 8 straight points? But then when the team needs a bucket, he doesn’t even touch the ball.
That’s what’s inexplicable about it. Even though Webster is very capable of making that shot, why go away from the guy who’s already been making them, and who has proven his defender can’t guard him? It makes no sense to go away from Beas in that situation
My Biggest Problem
Was how forced the shot was with plenty of time left on the clock.
by Jose Cordoba on Dec 22, 2010 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
+ A billion
That’s what I was crying about. Beasley scores easily, makes a good pass to Love for a hoop, then scores again. Jazz score, Rambis calls TO, Web takes an off balance 3! Gross!
2 Buckets, 1 assist = 6 pts
Was good to see the old Beas back. He looked calm and smooth. But should have scored more tonight.
Totally should’ve been B-Easy. Everyone where I was sitting was expecting him to take the shot and excited and then Webster took it and then made the absolute most bone-headed play of the game when he fouled on that dunk.
To be fair, Martel did keep us in it for a stretch in the second half and really showed something that we need badly – veteran leadership. We need someone willing to take some shots when things are not totally going our way. That doesn’t mean, though, that Rambis couldn’t do a better job of utilizing the pieces we have.
Oh, don't get me wrong
It’s nothing against Webster. That shot was in his range and not overly-contested. It’s just that he shouldn’t have been the one taking it. But that’s on Rambis
we're in agreement
No I agree too and maybe wasn’t clear, but I fully agree the last play should’ve been for B-Easy. The sad thing is that this wasn’t even the dumbest move Rambis has made at the end of a game, as that non-fouling in Denver takes the cake.
Sadly we all wish he would have succeeded, but he needs to sort things out better at the end of tight ballgames and be a steadying influence, especially with such a young squad, but he’s not getting it done.
I was so bummed after tonight’s game.
Why not Webster?
BEasy jhas been a turnover machine at crunch time ALL YEAR except once
by WinTheLottery on Dec 23, 2010 8:25 AM CST up reply actions
It wasn't Webster who fouled on the dunk
It was Wes. His AND1 foul made it a 4 pt game and eliminated the possibility of a three to tie it at the end.
Nobody is killing Rambis more than me...
But considering Beasley’s “Complete Cock Up Failure Rate” at the end of games has basically been 95%, I’m having a having a hard time blaming Kurt for not calling his number tonight.
Not only has Beas not earned it, he’s pissed on the opportunity at almost every chance.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Really???
Considering this is Beasley’s first season playing full-time SF, and being asked to be the closer, I think we’ll give him every opportunity possible to learn the role. Besides who do we have better than him at being an alpha-wolf on this team?
Beasley should be the #1 option on O.
Love is a very very competent #2 option on O.
Wes is the #3 option.
Webster is our 6th man.
There is no reason we cannot close out games.
None!
Isolate Beasley…let him run down the clock and either create for himself or others.
Love is in the post looking for a rebound, if we miss, and a potential tip-in.
Wes is in the corner ready and willing to shoot the 3 if his number is called.
That is a simple system that is far and away better than Luke, Webster or Brewer jacking up long 3’s.
Know your team and their strengths and use it.
by Dominate on Dec 23, 2010 1:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Beasley iso only looks so good at the end of the games because we don't run any plays.
It’s better than the offensive of “let’s see what the defensive will give us” approach we use most of the game, but still not as good as having some well executed and run plays that get our shooters open and in their spots.
It's hard to forget all of his stupid turnovers in late minutes. Hard.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
I could put this in as reply to many.
If our “vets”, Ridnour and Webster, had played like vets, we would have won. Ridnour has made stupid, game losing mistakes at the end of a multitude of our close games. We have no one who has proven to be smart at the end of a game. Someone here compared past back courts and mentioned Ollie. Ollie would have put at least 3 losses in the win column, IMO. Ridnour is vet enough to have learned how to do it if he was ever going to learn. Webster I’ll give some more opportunities. I don’t think we have any choice except to wait for a couple of our young guys to step up. I think Wes, Beas, Love, Webster all have potential to get smart and reliable for close games.
I still love de wolves less git it!
MAYN HOL UP!
by MAYNHOLUP on Dec 22, 2010 11:32 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
+1
They may not be finishers yet but there is clear improvement year-over-year.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
SHIT YEAH MAYN!!!
We’ll get there…
When CH is finally running the team.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
We here at CH
Should all apply for positions with the team….
I’ll run for President of PR and I’ll let you guys handle the nuts and bolts
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
Random love (not kevin) post
I love this website, even after brutal losses, thanks to all those that keep it going.
Just thinking outloud here, lil brainstorming...
We need to destroy this team before it destroys us.
by fanslaststand on Dec 23, 2010 12:11 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Here's the 20 seconds that cost us the game
0:44 105-107 Michael Beasley makes jumper
THEN IT ALL FELL APART
0:33 107-107 Martell Webster shooting foul (Paul Millsap draws the foul)
0:33 Paul Millsap makes free throw 1 of 1 108-107
AWFUL ATTEMPT TO TAKE CHARGE BY MW
0:28 Minnesota 20 Sec. timeout
0:21 108-107 Martell Webster misses 25-foot three point jumper
BAD SHOT, BAD PLAY
0:19 Paul Millsap defensive rebound 108-107
0:13 Gordon Hayward makes dunk (Raja Bell assists) 110-107
0:13 110-107 Martell Webster shooting foul (Gordon Hayward draws the foul)
FOULS HIM WHILE HE MAKES DUNK, ESSENTIALLY ENDS GAME BY MAKING IT 2 POSSESSION GAME
0:13 Gordon Hayward makes free throw 1 of 1 111-107
0:13 Minnesota full timeout
by Rodman99 on Dec 23, 2010 12:17 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
It fell apart...
A long time before this…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
There were two 'and 1's' towards the end
Martell’s and another Wolf (might have been Brewer) fouled on clear dunks which left me shaking my head.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Yeah those are killers
There were 5 “and 1s” in the fourth quarter alone.
41 freakin’ points in the 4th, brutal. I remember thinking Utah is going to have to have a huge quarter to win this game.
Some positives. Utah scored on their first 5 possessions of the 4th and only cut the lead by 3 points. Hey, let’s take what we can, no?
You are right...
I did not tune in til the last 44 seconds (doing something else), and I saw we were up by 2 points.
Wow, we could win this.
Game ends, we had not scored a point. That is inexcusable. That is bad coaching. Some mental mistakes, really, but the coaches gotta fins a way to take up more time on the clock. They need some clock management skills and we gotta have the coaches do some role playing with a tight game at the end of the clock, so they don’t do stupid things and they minimize the odds of players doing stupid things.
What blew my mind, looking at the end of quarter scores, was how badly we were beating Utah in the 1st 3 quarters.
I hate to say it in front of all this gloom & doom, but this is fixable.
That's funny
Because it’s the exact opposite of what happened to me. I forgot to put extra time on the DVR programming so I got shut off right around there when were up 2 and thought “Ugh, well at least I don’t have to watch them give it away.”
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Boy, what a cynical lot
Webster played very well on both ends. He did make an uncalled for ‘and 1’ foul at the end but that hardly dents the production he gave tonight. Not even close.
No one I know likes the win-loss record or the fact that we play good for 3 1/2 quarters in games but the only thing worse is reading the cynicism and piss on everyone, coaches, players, etc. mindset. You don’t like Rambis? fine You don’t like Kahn? fine. But simply repeating the same incrimination gets a bit stale don’t you think?
Kevin Love and Michael Beasley played very well tonight. I really thought Millsap would be a tough match-up for Beasley but Michael won that battle.
The Love v. Big Al match-up was not good but with Darko in foul trouble there was really not choice.
I thought Luke Ridnour, a favorite chew-toy for some, played a very solid game tonight. He was surprisingly effective against D-Will, beating him off the dribble and penetrating the paint before dishing the rock.
Wes Johnson, another favorite chew-toy for some, played pretty well for a rookie. His match-up with Bell was quite positive on both ends.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
by Flagrant on Dec 23, 2010 12:18 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Fair points
Wes had a great game. Would love to see him shooting the 3 at the end.
Beas is improving defensively...
and in general.
He spent the 1st half defending AK-47 and a large part of the 2nd on Millsap. Now…can he put it all together? Will Rambis trust him to be alpha-wolf?
"while this year's squad looks like it should be different than past versions of Wolfdom"
Yup. Looks the part, but night in and night out, the only battle we’re winning is PF:
Martell's best moment to me
On the offensive end, he drew a foul and shunk both free throws. Then, on the defensive end next play he creates a charging foul.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
He did play well
And then went on tilt at the end. Was doing some crazy scissor kicks on his shots. But he’ll learn and I think Rambis was seeing what it’s be like to see if he could close the game. If he makes that 3, all is forgiven.
Disappointed with Jonny's play
Jonny came off the bench and didn’t contribute much at all. Don’t even think he was the best option for coming off the bench tonight. What I saw was Jonny 2009/10. Not a good look.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Made some nice shots
You can literally see when he doubts whether he should shoot. His confidence looks low and still tries to be too creative with passes. Needs to stick to the old K.I.S.S. formula. His game looks fixable to me though.
He had 3 turnovers and two assists tonight
in 15 minutes of play. Unfortunately, that was the pattern last season too. That baseline drive he made only to get his shot blocked was circa 2009/10.
The first few games after Jonny came back he was doing relatively well, but he lapsed tonight.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Yup... I think he needs to attack more
No driving to the basket. That’s his bread and butter. It’s been pretty absent.
Sad
you steal name for game thread from poster at twolvesblog :(
Glad to see Brewer only took 3 shots
Not glad he missed them all. Martell is getting minutes from Brewer. He played good at times, but in the 4th quarter, he single handedly lost the game for us.
He wanted to be the go to guy, and rushed an off balance 3 point shot, when we only needed a two, with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, and Love and Beasley both trying to sandwich Raja Bell at the top of the key, leaving nobody underneath to rebound.
Then he stupidly fouls the guy at the other end, handing them a 3 point play at the worst possible time. Instead of being up by one and going for the win with a stop, they were now down by 4, instead of 3, making it a 2 possession game and making a win all but impossible.
Then, when we took the ball out after a final time out by Rambis, needing a 4 point play to tie, the ball goes in to Beasley, who dances around with it, driving in the lane completely covered, and he throws it away off the backboard. Game, set, match. A complete choke job, starting with Martell, going thru Rambis, and ending with Beasley.
Now that’s what I call teamwork.
In fairness to the Jazz
man were they passes the rock tonight. Ball touches four or five players hands on just about every possession and the ball moves fast too.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Remember that sequence by Jonny?
He passed it to I think Brewer at the top of the key, Brewer passes it back to Jonny, Jonny passes it back to Brewer, Brewer passes it back to Jonny. It’s like they were saying “you take it, I don’t want it.” “No, you take it.”
The sequence ended with a turnover.
Comical
Was Johnny and Wes but yeah it was a horrible sequence
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:36 AM CST up reply actions
Do think it was Jonny & Brewer
And ended with Jonny hoisting an airball or just grazing the rim.
This is why I love Al Jefferson
“I’ll always support the Timberwolves,” Jefferson said. “I feel bad and know exactly what they’re going through. Believe it or not I think they’re heading in the right direction. They’ve got a great group of guys here and a lot of talent.”
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
Big AL
To be magnanimous in victory shows great character
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:31 AM CST up reply actions
It would have shown even greater character if he had said this in a loss...
and also…I’d feel better about our team.
It’s easy to say nice things about the other team when you just beat them.
I still think that
Al Jeff handled it post-game as well as he possibly could have
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 23, 2010 1:45 AM CST reply actions
I've seen better analysis, Stop-n-Pop.
I agree wholeheartedly with your description of how the Wolves lose games in general, but this write-up smacks of something you’d had brewing for a while and decided to use here because it was close enough and you had the time to write it. How is the story of the game the Wolves’ offensive failings and not defense? Allow me my alternative game wrap:
Glancing through the 4th quarter play-by-play, I counted 26 possessions for the Wolves, not counting the last one which was cut short by then game ending before the possession was concluded. The team scored 24 points. That’s an ORtg of 92.3, below the Wolves’ normal rate, but well within the range of normal quarter-to-quarter fluctuation, especially considering that ORtgs drop across the board in the face of the motivated defense playing in the 4th quarter of a close game.
The Jazz turned their 27 4th quarter possessions into 41 points, making the Wolves’ DRtg a putrid 151.9. It got there because of the final 14 possession stretch that decided the game. At 2:48, Michael Beasley got a defensive rebound with the Wolves up 7. We would get 6 more points before the end of the game, so consider that the Jazz had to have made up at least 13 points to win. Just by letting them dunk every time without fouling, that’s 13 / 2 = 7 possessions needed for them to take a lead. Between each of their possessions, we get a possession, with the option of burning up to 24 seconds off the clock. 7 * 24 = 2 minutes, 52 seconds, four seconds longer than the time remaining, even if the Jazz were scoring instantaneous dunks on every one of their possessions. I’m fudging numbers and concepts for the sake of simplicity, but the point is, it should have been mathematically impossible for the Jazz to win this game had we merely conceded them an unguarded dunk every time they got the ball, while burning expected amounts of clock on offense and on defense prior to said dunks.
Why did we really lose?
Because we somehow allowed the Jazz to turn their next 7 possessions into 15 points, a number greater than the 2.0 points/possession allowed by my “Let them dunk” plan, while simultaneously burning through 14 collective possessions in the span of 2:35 (11.1 seconds per possession) even though had we merely used the 24 seconds we had control over while letting the Jazz inbound the ball, traverse the court, and dunk at the speed of light, it would have taken longer.
Late game scoring would not have been an issue had this team simply played no defense rather than “less than no defense” and not willingly given the Jazz extra time to work with. There’s your coaching issue: a team so poorly coached, so incredibly undisciplined, so woefully mismanaged that they broke fucking math in order to turn a win into a loss.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 23, 2010 2:41 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
You misread the game log
Last time we were up 7 was with 7:05 left in the game.
We got it back to 6 with 5:35 left.
Back to 5 with 3:05 left.
Tie game 1:58 left.
Either you're wrong or the play-by-play is.
http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=301222016&period=4
2:48 left, score says 94 – 101, a 7 point lead.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
You're right
Bad math moment. Or I could have been in denial that we lost a 7 point lead with that much time left.
I guess it’s just three possessions. But still.
defense (lack thereof) has been the issue all along
Rambis went on and on before the season about how improved this team would be defensively over last year.
I don’t see it, even with Darko blocking so many shots. Perimeter D is the biggest weakness.
Wolves can't dribble for 24 seconds
That’s why they couldn’t hold on.
by WinTheLottery on Dec 23, 2010 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
I hear ya
But I didn’t go with the defensive angle because the Wolves currently sit with a roughly 104/112 OE/DE ratio. Last night’s game ended with roughly 104/109. Yeah, they went through a crazy lapse in the 4th quarter, but on a whole, it was just them reverting to who they are. I figured it fits right in with this team as a whole and was more representative of their broad trends than anything specific. IT’s all numbing right now and Rambis breaks f’ing math on a regular basis.
They look good for small stretches of time before collapsing quickly (and wildly) to a place that reverts everything to their predictable mean. I think the problem with this team is equal parts cooking and shopping, offense and defense, and so on and so forth. At the end of a game, and at the stretch of a large number of games, they are who we thought they were.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Jazz have come back against teams like Miami
I’m not too down that they managed to do it against us. Is it tough? Sure, but not on the level of the early Florida buzzsaw the team went through.
As far as Rambis, he deserves and will likely get the season. There’s no way that with a brutal early schedule (10x worse then last season, which is why comparing the two is beyond retarded), a whole team of new faces that seemingly drop in and out of the lineup whenever they please and a very young team that this sort of a record is really that surprising.
Rambis comparison
Why the hell did Rambis wait so long to bring in Webster? It’s not like it’s incredibly apparent that Webster is the third (if not second) best player on the team.
Rabbis reminds me of an 11 year old trying to get an old tv to work. He knows he can’t fix it, so instead he tries banging on the side, blowing in the vent, moving the bunny ears, or anything else that may or may not work.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Wise 11-year-old.
If you open up a CRT and start fooling around with stuff instead, you can get yourself a nasty shock.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Another healthy dose of Free Throws from Martell Webster.
Six taken last night, and six made. He continues to basically double his career rate of drawing free throws.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I didn't see the game, but
how was Hayward +17 in 12 minutes against us? Is that just part of the quirkiness of +/- as a statistic, or did he actually do good things for them?
We played well for 3 1/2 quarters and then fell apart tragically in the last quarter
Hayward didn’t do much other than be on the floor while the Wolves fouled on dunks, turned the ball over and took quick possessions giving the Jazz more time all while playing lousy D. So basically it was a fluke with no bearing on him.
He just was in at the end when we imploded
He made a three point play on essentially a wide open dunk at the end. Good guy to have on the floor during the fouling time.
Thanks, guys
that’s the impression I got from the box score, though I was impressed that he had no negative stats (turnovers of fouls), but some positive ones (3 rebounds, 3 assists, hit all of his free throws).
You missed a good game
We played well… until we didn’t.
FWIW
the team is averaging 15,189 fans per home game thus far – not far off of Wright’s 16K goal.
Discussing homerism since 2008!
Yep. As someone who has been to every home game
both last year and this year, the crowds are definitely bigger. For a Wednesday home game, there was a pretty good crowd there.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
why all this fire Rambis talk?
If we fire Rambis your just going to want to fire the next coach when we suck again. I hope we stick with Rambis. For atleast another year. This team needs time to grow and I think Rambis is the guy to do it.
by FunkDoobious on Dec 23, 2010 11:02 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Random thoughts
Positives:
- Martell can play. He’s not an All-Star type of anything, but he clearly is an NBA-caliber, and probably starting-caliber wing. That doesn’t sound all that impressive until you look back at the wings we’ve had here over the years and consider how few of them fit that description. You can win with Martell Webster in your starting lineup. It feels good to know that we have a guy that was good enough to start for the recent Blazers teams that always beat us.
- Beasley still shows flashes. That was a helluva final stretch he played—it’s part of why the loss was so disappointing. We had a lead, and Beasley kept getting us points, but all the mistakes of everybody else outweighed that. Still, it’s nice to see Be Easy scoring in late-game situations. Keep getting those reps.
- Love keeps the consistent production coming.
* Big Al is a monster on the low block. Those tough baskets down the stretch are key to winning close ball games. Plus, his shotblocking skills are helpful playing next to an undersized power forward. This guy is just a winner, and we’re lucky to have him for the long-haul here in Minnesota.
Negatives:
- Flynn sucks. I was patient with him longer than many were, but I’ve had enough. I don’t like it when the first pass happens with 10 on the shot clock. I don’t like the point guard standing around dribbling between his legs while Deron waits to pounce on the ball, and I don’t like Deron being able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on offense in the 4th Quarter. Flynn isn’t good and he doesn’t have much potential to be good. His point guard skills are basically non-existent. The one thing he does well is knock down open shots. With the right mentality and right sidekick in the backcourt, he could do okay. I used to say those things about Foye, too.
- Darko’s left-hand hook is becoming predictable to opponents. Big Al is no great defender, but he knew that hook was coming and he played it every time. Darko should start doing some right-handed moves, even if he misses them at first.
- The fouls.
- The turnovers.
The Fire Rambis thing is hard to call, because on the one hand, Kurt deserves credit for the increased competitiveness of the games and the seeming development of guys like Beasley, Darko, and even Love. But, he’s also coaching a team with a reasonable amount of talent and they have the worst or second-worst record in the NBA. They commit stupid fouls and turnovers every single game, and there hasn’t been a sign of progress there, that I can see. Going forward this year, I’d like to see improvement in the fouls and turnovers areas. To me, that’s partly coaching. With improvement there, we should win more games and look more like a real NBA team, down the stretch.
by Andy G on Dec 23, 2010 11:09 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
As much as I believe
that moving Al was the right thing to do (for economic reasons alone), it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if they had kept Al, convinced him to pass out of the post to the remaining Wolves, eight of whom are averaging 38% accuracy or better from the three point line.
Kahn should have taken Landry Fields
Yeah...
although I think his knee recovery was mostly to blame for his crappy 09-10 season, I think another part of it was the downgrade in wing talent from his prior years. With Foye, McCants, Miller, etc. Al was a very tough guard in the low post. He may have been that good or better with the guys we have now. Like Stop-N-Pop mentions from time to time, this triangle offense seems to include a lot of dump-it-into-Darko, which would be better with Jefferson in his place.
Good Write-Up
I’m not certain that Rambis is the long-term solution. Nor can I express a great love for some of Kahn’s draft moves. I’m just wondering how often “You blow the ship up?” . It seems Rambis should be entitled to at least a season and a half. Probably 2 seasons to evaluate whether we’re on the right course considering the roster instability.
Great write up Andy...
I’m not sure Rambis is the long term answer..but he definitely deserves more time. I think he’s made some progress and its way too early to fire him. I think we can look at things at the end of the year….
Post of the Year....
Things are obvious to the fans, other players in the league, and the media. Rambis is not the guy plain and simple. It won’t be long until the crowd turns on him like they did with Childress. Fire Rambis (clap clap…. clap clap clap) Fire Rambis (clap clap…. clap clap clap)….
I don't see the Rambis/Childress parallel.
Other than both guys are underwhelming coaches in Minnesota. Other than that, their expectations, their results and their tactics are completely different.
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
I don't think much of Rambis as a coach but even less of him as a talent evaluator
And I think the talent evaluation is more the problem with winning games right now than in-game decision or preparation on his part. Again, that isn’t to say I like his in-game decisions but this is a talent poor roster. Exceptionally so. And it seems to me at least from the public statements since he took over the roster that Rambis is basically a “looks the part” type guy who nearly fetishizes something called “length” as well as athleticism while being completely incapable of realizing that those traits as much as they exist or can be defined are not one in the same with talent, productivity or winning games.
When I think about the roster decisions we have heard Rambis being openly in favor of I can think of five of them (feel free to dispute or add). In rough chronological order:
Acquiring Sasha Pavlovic. Sasha had been an absolute trainwreck for two full seasons before the Wolves added him. Rambis was said to be highly in favor of the move and there isn’t really any explanation for it. Sasha was absolutely awful; this was a known known before he was acquired.
Extending Corey Brewer and then playing him a ton of minutes over two seasons. Corey, like Sasha is absolutely horrible, He has been gifted minutes his entire career. He has been in each of his three healthy seasons a candidate for absolute worst rotation player in the NBA.
Re-signing Darko with an increased offensive role/Drafting Wes/not drafting Cousins. These are all interlinked by everything we have heard through the media. The most amazing nugget of the last two seasons from the national media on the Wolves to me was Rick Kamla telling Wolves fans that the only for sure starter that Rambis and Kahn saw on the roster (I believe this was pre-Beasley and it might have been pre-draft) was Darko. There is simply nothing in Darko’s career to have suggested that is his case. Even worse, the notion that a team should run its offense through a player as inept as Darko is something you can only believe if you simply discount the entirety of his career. A guaranteed role being fed the ball and if Laimbeer can be believed a promise of minutes. What has Darko Milicic ever done before or since to warrant a promise of minutes?
And the foolishness re: Darko put the dominoes in motion for the drafting of Wes, a classic “looks the part” pick.
Beasley was a looks the part guy but was quite productive. Same with Tolliver. The jury is out on Webster but that looks like it might work out well for the Wolves.
And then of course there is Rambis’ complete inability to realize/deal with/accept that Love is really really good bordering on great and the only clear long term keeper on the roster.
Regarding Darko + Team
Hey Ailuridae,
First, regarding your post about Darko. We’ve gone back and forth on this a hundred times and it’s clear we will never see eye2eye. However, regardless of how much back-n-forth squabbling exists, I’d like to (once again) explain why (I think) the brass wanted Darko back. I realize he’s never been good (or even average — at least statistically), but maybe they saw what I see. A guy who’s never been given the chance to develop his offensive game (read down further for explanation), has relatively few miles on his body, and plays good (decent DWS?) defense. You see him as a 2nd (3rd?) string C and I get that…but what if — and I know you’ll hate this — they were hoping to catch lightning in a bottle? Coddle him…first time he’ll ever receive any sort of positive attention from his coach…and pray a lightbulb flicks on?
I know he’s played “big” minutes before in his career, but for about a 3 year stretch, I didn’t see him shoot more than 10-15 shots in an entire season that didn’t consist of hooks and layups. You’re seeing a small repertoire developing, regardless of its ineffectiveness (50% since his “breakout” but no free throw increase) and maybe, just maybe, he gains the confidence needed to pull away from shooting the hooks and begins to look for contact and better shots…
Lastly, in regards to most here calling for the head of Rambis. I’m not a fan of the Timberwolves (or any team in the league, although the Pups are growing on me and I’ve watched games where Darko didn’t play / barely plays) but even the biggest pessimist would have to agree that the schedule they’ve been given compared to a young team like Sacramento seems almost indicative of who the NBA would rather promote. It’s as if the NBA wanted the Timberwolves out of the playoff race early in the season to further bolster the Kings young “talent”. Last time I checked strength of schedule, the Kings were like 29th or 30th and Timberwolves 7th or something (if anyone can direct me to the most up-2-date, I’d appreciate it) and yet they are basically the same in terms of record. Yes, the “crappy” teams should have been easy wins, but the fact that they can hold their own versus the Lakers and Spurs tells you that they have TALENT. The Kings…the best team they’ve beaten is NJN or TOR.
Ailuridae - Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?
by DarkoMilicic on Dec 23, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Scarce resources
That’s the problem with catching lightning in a bottle. Salary cap space is a scarce resource. Playing time is a scare resource. Shot/touches are a scarce resource. The Timberwolves have guaranteed all of them to Darko. I just think that using scarce resources on less than 1 in 20 chances is amazingly stupid. Good, well run teamsdon’t do that and teams like the Wolves do it all the time. Darko, Brewer, Flynn, Johnson, Pavlovic etc etc etc.
But here’s the thing. According in Kamla they didn’t think that Darko might become a starting level center someday. They thought he already was when they extended him. And, no, nothing in his career across many coaches, teams and offensive systems suggested that was the case. And 30 games into this season it has born out to again be the case. Darko is what he is – an above average defender who is really, really awful offensively. From everything he, his coaches and his fan supporters say and write it is tough not to think that in order to get defensive effort out of him you have to allow him to kill his team offensively. I think that’s a really bad trade-off.
Unless I am missing something since Darko’s hot five game stretch he’s shot 47 of 111 or right around 45%.. He’s scored 111 points as well. That’s horrible for any player but especially for a center. And his TOs have been out of control too. Pretty much in line with the rest of his season. Its funny how consistent players are especially when you don’t find some reason to throw out all of their bad games.
I think you might have misunderstood me
What I meant was that while he will struggle on offense at some points, he will continue to expand his game. Learn to use the moves he hasn’t before and then “put it together” one day. I’ll be the first to call him out on the things he hasn’t done (pass out of double-teams at opportune times, carelessly foul players with no prayer of scoring, miss point blank shots, etc.) but I continue to believe he’ll put it together. The reason? He’s “playing for fun” for the first time and allowed to experiment rather than having a set role. Yeah, he’s 25, but his case is unique. Even Kwame was thrown into the fire early in his career (despite playing a dozen or so minutes his first year and 20 or so his 2nd). Darko had that opportunity in Orlando, no doubt. However, he continued to (for the most part) put up hook shots and layups. The string of hot games he had didn’t get me excited over the stats nearly as much as how he was doing it. He was active on offense, unselfish and CONFIDENT, while patrolling the paint on defense. If he never goes above 14/7 in his career, I won’t care as long as he gets them confidently rather than through pure hook shots and layups, although I will think that would be the floor rather than the ceiling. The ultimate signal for how he’s feeling on the court is if he’s smiling. He was smiling in the games against San Antonio and Oklahoma City.
Another thing to point out is that he’s out on the court playing through injury(ies?) for a team who’s firmly entrenched in a struggle for the most ping-pong balls. That’s something he was not doing for Memphis, which tells me he likes this team. I’m really pulling for him to have the light bulb flick on in his head, because I (think) I know he can do.
Plus, IF (big if) he plays with the confidence he had for that hot stretch (solid base on hook shots, defensive anchor, slick passing), I have no doubt he’ll live up to his contract. I’ll reserve judgment on his “inconsistency” for when his ankle and quad heal up. If he continues playing at the pace he was during his hot streak, good for your team and my fandom. If he continues to play inconsistent, I’ll chalk it up to him still not getting it and that will be one more year of fandom down the drain. Then, maybe it is time to start following my other guys (Conley, Dragic, G. Hill, Oden (lulz), Rose) more closely while distancing myself from Milicic a bit. However, I keep hope that he “gets it” because quite frankly, I want to see what he can do at max potential.
A question directed at you (I’ll be on later to read your opinion).
Do you think Darko’s potential was grossly overestimated or do you think he failed to live up to it? Also, regarding your Serbian business partner / friend…what did he say about Darko? Was he an overrated talent or mental headcase?
Finally…thank you for addressing me in a non-condescending/patronizing way and good to see that we can be civil to each other.
Ailuridae - Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?
by DarkoMilicic on Dec 23, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
The Obsession with Darko
I never understood all the hoopla over the Darko signing. Everyone – everyone – thinks he has all the tools to be a very good NBA player. The Twolves thought they could develop those tools. Maybe they are right – we’ve definitely seen great flashes this year – and maybe they are wrong (see beginning of the season). But whatever the case, the price for which he signed is not “starter” money. Even if he is at best a backup center, a backup center who can defend and block shots is worth 4 mill a year. Especially since Kevin Love, for all the plaudits he gets from folks on this board, simply cannot defend the Stoudemires, Jeffersons etc., of the league. I guess I don’t understand why this is controversial. Even the Wolves players themselves say they need Darko to compete against teams with effective big men.
As for the idea that Rambis runs the offense through Darko – that’s about as true as the MJ Bulls running the offense through Luc Longley. I actually like the idea of getting Darko a lot of touches because he generally only shoots when Love is in rebounding position and is also a willing passer.
Darko wasn't just guaranteed money
The Wolves have made pretty plain he was guaranteed money, minutes and touches?
As a Chicagoan the notion that the Wolves are running no more of their offense through Darko than the Bulls did Longley is laughable. Really? Darko is using a ton of possessions for the Wolves. Do you not realize this? Or are you reflexively defending him?
What's Your Definition of a Ton?
He plays only 25 minutes a game and does not have nearly the highest usage rate on the team.
His usage rate is 19.3. Beasley’s is 26.4. Love’s is 22.7. Brewer’s is 18.1. Flynn actually had a usage of 23.5 last year (gulp).
In an ideal world, maybe Darko’s usage would be lower and he’d touch the ball less, although personally I’d rather have him shooting the ball than Brewer or Flynn.
He seem to be thinking I am advocating for Brewer here
and maybe you’re new to the site or something. But as you can read above I mentioned that Brewer is an offensive disaster too. If he has a role in a winning team’s rotation (and I would shocked if he ever could) it would be as a player who nearly never shoots the ball. But like Darko to get whatever suspect defensive impact out of Brewer you have to feed him the ball. And, no, nobody should feed either Brewer or Darko the ball. That is, if they are interested in winning basketball games.
But if Darko or Brewer has a role on an NBA winner it is probably using a Sefolosha or Ibaka or Collison (Nick not Darren) level of possessions.
You simply can’t win in the NBA team with two incredibly inefficient scorers having high usage rates
Anyone watch the Barca game?
Won by 1 point over group winner Sienna at home on Rubio end to end drive with 6 seconds left.
Frankly, Rubio didn’t play well. He got into foul trouble and had to sit for a long stretch of the 2nd half. Couldn’t stay in front of Bo McCalebb.*
*McCalebb is a great example of how jobs in the NBA are as much about right place/right time as about talent. No question in my mind that he’s at least as good as any number of guys with roster spots in the L.
Anyway, he re-enters a tie game with about 3 minutes left. Drives and gets fouled. Makes 1 FT. Down 1, he draws and finds Grimau underneath with a beautiful pass. Misses a 3. Down 2, he saves a loose ball after Navarro almost turns it over, finds Grimau, foul. Down 1, grabs a loose ball off a missed Sienna shot, goes the length of the floor and scores the winner with 6 seconds left. When he’s focused and has the chance, he can affect games.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 23, 2010 4:54 PM CST reply actions
Bo would give a lot of NBA guards fits
I saw him at UNO more than once. He could penetrate at will against that competition, He didn’t have much of a jump shot. I followed him last year when Partizan picked him up (I have a different Danilovic on google alerts and it shot me a note when he added Bo) and thought he might get a look from the NBA. Not that Serie A ball is awful.
I think Bo would certainly break the Wolves’ rotation based on skill and production.
He's better than Jonny Flynn right now.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 23, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
Since you mentioned Danilovic
Are you talking Sasha? You follow Euro hoops?
Ailuridae - Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?
by DarkoMilicic on Dec 23, 2010 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
Not really
I’ve met Sasha when he was in the league – I’ve pretty much met every player from the former Yugoslavia to come into the league after Vlade but when I wrote that I have a different Danilovic on alerts and I just got Sasha alerts by accident it was because indeed I had a different Danilovic on alert.
Yep
i’d say he would be about 40/60 to win the starting PG role outright in open competition from what I saw last year.But then again, the Wolves entire roster except Love and Beasley is full of players that are about 50/50 to lose their jobs to street FAs who are available for less money than they are being paid. And many of those players would happily play for the minimum.
Bad teams aren’t bad because of hexes. Barring injuries it is always a case of an inappropriate use of scarce resources.
Yep.
Not just the Wolves, though. McCalebb could have been Nate Robinson had he had the opportunity.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 23, 2010 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
I can't figure out if you're praising him or insulting him right now...
Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend.
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