How Do We Explain This One?
by Oceanary on Dec 29, 2010 10:35 PM CST
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By the end of the first quarter, I sort of had a feeling we were in for a long night.
This Nuggets team was depleted to say the least, missing literally its entire starting frontcourt. No Carmelo Anthony (the franchise), no Nene (best post scorer), no Kenyon Martin (best defender). And no Al Harrington either, their top big man reserve. And on the other side of the court, you have Michael Beasley coming off the best performance arguably of his whole career (and he certainly brought it again tonight) and a nearly fully-healthy roster. It seemed like the Nuggets would be easy pickings tonight.
But even with the start the Wolves got off to, there was a point about midway through the first quarter where I started to get worried. The Wolves were shooting something like 85% at that point, the Nuggets in the 30s....and the difference in the score was just 5 points. Five. And I looked at that and I just though "y'know what...this isn't going to end well".
And wouldn't you know, it didn't.
There's a lot of reasons that can be listed off why the Wolves dropped this one:
- Turnovers and fouls. And that's pretty much to script for this team this season. Ok, the refs weren't perfect tonight. But as an overall performance, this wasn't exactly out of line for the Pups. Turn it over, commit a foul. Turn it over, commit a foul. Lights and clockwork.
- No defense. Which is, again, according to script. Early on the Nuggets had major issues scoring the ball, but how much of that was really the Wolves? Probably not much. Without Melo, the Nuggets turned to JR Smith to see if he could fill the void, and well....JR defends himself far better than anyone else can. When his shot is off, it's really really off. And tonight it was really really off. On the flip side of that, you get Chauncey Billups, who scored 36 points....15 of them in the fourth quarter....and shot 6-6 from three. That's the kind of defense the Wolves have played most of the year and probably the true level of defense they played tonight.
- Ty Lawson. Who couldn't have shown the difference between himself and Jonny Flynn any more starkly than he did tonight. More than just the gap in production, y'know, Lawson looked like a leader, looked like an elite NBA player. He ran the point, made his shots, and defended his position. And that's in contrast to Jonny, who didn't do much of anything....at best...while looking thoroughly lost. I don't think Flynn/Lawson is nearly as big a gaffe as Flynn/Curry, but at the same time, here's a kid in Lawson whom both Fred Hoiberg and Dean Cooper had rated as the best point guard in that draft. What else is there to say? Let's not kid ourselves about why the Mayor took that coaching job in Iowa, right?
And this list could go on and on with all sorts of things. But the bottom line is this was a game the Wolves could have taken and really, should have taken, but didn't. And maybe the refs had a hand in it, maybe coach Rambis should have tightened the substitutions, maybe the Wolves didn't take the Nuggets seriously until it was too late, maybe the Wolves should have spent their assets wiser before the season started. Whatever. Point is, this was a very winnable game regardless of that stuff, a team that's 8-24 can't afford to be given these opportunities and not capitalize on them. If you face a team missing 3 of its top 5 players and open the game shooting 80-something%, you should have that team dead to rights. There should be no way for them to stay in it.
George Karl, before the game, said the Wolves are close to turning the corner, because every game he's seen us on in tape is a game we should have won. The game against the San Antonios and Utahs and Oklahomas....and now this one tonight. And I think he's right, I think we're right there. But to actually get around that curve, we need to first figure out why we can't. Limit the turnovers. Limit the fouls. Close these games out. There's all these games where you think "well if we had just done whatever..."...well, it's time the Wolves actually started doing (or not doing) those things.
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Definitely a stomach-punch kind of loss.
This one would’ve definitely sent the positive vibes through the fans. 3 in a row, and two straight wins over playoff teams, plus our next game against the Nets…that would’ve been a great stretch. Instead…ugh. I want to blame the refs. I want to blame Jonny Flynn. But those are just scapegoats.
Tough one to swallow.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
3 in a row would have been huge
When’s the last time we accomplished that feat? The magical january? The KG days?
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Clippers and Knicks at home, Mavs on the road, Grizzlies at home.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Reading the game wrap from that Grizzlies game
(when the world seemed right) is kind of funny, kind of sad and kind of deja vu:
http://www.canishoopus.com/2010/2/7/1299397/enjoy-the-season
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
This game was a joke and I could not be more annoyed about the loss BUT
I think Beasley is for real, I was skeptical about his hot stretch after the 42 pts in SAC, and he came back to earth for awhile… but he doesn’t look like Ricky Davis or Mike James or someone who’s ceiling is high volume scoring on a terrible team, he looks legit at 21, and he played great tonight. I have no idea how they lost that game. Gross
Exactly how I feel....
He seems to be adjusting to situations and being defended differently throughout the game. After his hot shooting stretch I knew he would come back to earth hard as teams geared their defensive assignments towards him. It’s really encouraging to see him looking to pass more and understanding where his shots should be coming from.
8 FTA, 4 Assists, 1 TO is a fantastic line from him and at this point in his development, is more important to me than 12-20 for 33.
Beasley's been a huge positive lately
Last few games his facilitating has really picked up, and he’s realizing how much easier it makes his scoring game go
I've been a huge Beasley detractor...
But he has been what we want him to be for the last few games. I seriously worry that he will ever sustain it, but no doubt he has been a difference maker this week. Does any Ch’er know how to keep him this engaged?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Pass him the ball and involve him on a lot of plays on O.
It’s almost an axiom of Wolves/Bease basketball that he’s going to get his 20 shots.
You don’t want him forcing those shots because he’s not touching the ball on O and so jacks up shots whenever he gets it. If he gets the ball often…he’ll pass more often because he knows he’s going to get opportunities throughout the game. When he doesn’t touch it much he feels he isn’t contributing much and so starts to jack to make up for it….
Not sure how we could measure this argument.
I understand what you’re saying, and it makes sense, but the various ways we have of looking at how ball- or possession-dominant a given player is already have Michael Beasley touching the ball as much as almost any star player in the league.
In order to demonstrate that there’s a real difference, we’d have to actually get down to “touches,” and then show the share of them that end in different ways. Showing that when he got a lot of touches he tended to pass more, or get more assists, would be evidence in favor.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Defense is why the wolves lost
you cant give up 40 pt 4th quarter scoring and expect to win. We either need another scorer or another defender
don't see how another scorer improves the defense.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 29, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
We either need another scorer to out score the other team
That what is the other way they could win I am sorry I did not complete my thought
Chuck logic...
We need more points on offense to beat the other team
OR
We need to give up less points on defense to beat the other team.
Insightful!!!
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
That is the name of the game
people like to whip out calculators or spread sheets I just point out the obvious. I use calculators or spread sheets for my engineering problems I don’t want to do it for fun,
Chuck...
Please define the following terms for me, because I am convinced you are 12 years old and don’t yet comprehend them:
Irony:
Sarcasm:
I really want to see how you describe these terms Chuck. Oh, I and I still want to man-hug you…I haven’t forgotten about that.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I want to call you something but fear of bing baned
I am a college senior for you information. This means I am not 12
by chuckd@79 on Dec 30, 2010 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I give you free rein...
To call me whatever you want. But on one condition, tell me what “irony” and “sarcasm” mean to you.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Hey mutleyil,
Just so you know, being a college senior means you’re not 12. That’s what it means. In case you thought chuck could be a college senior that is also 12, no, he wishes you to know that that is not the case. Since college seniors are not 12 and he is a college senior, this means he’s not 12.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 30, 2010 4:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There's a poker pro who was 12
When he graduated from college. He is really smart, of course, and I don’t think that’s the point mutley is trying to make.
You can't dust for vomit.
...and rec'd.
I want to call you something but fear of bing baned
I am a college senior for you information. This means I am not 12
I, too, fear of bing baned.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Isn't that what happens in thialand
… when you spraypaint walls (I can’t spell the “g” word that means spraypainting walls)
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
(So you're not a child prodigy, then.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
BTW...
If you are, in fact 12 years old, I don’t want to man-hug you. That would be creepy.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
It also wouldn't be a man-hug, but a man-boy-hug.
Definitely not the sort of thing we want to see being arranged on our fair boards.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
This isn't a NMBLA friendly site?
I never would have guessed. haha.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
I had to Google that
and when I did, I was horrified. Yikes.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
So you're not Eric Cartman
He loved NAMBLA. Was the spokesman for awhile, too.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
It's a running joke
on The Daily Show, too. So I looked it up a while ago.
by Madison Dan on Dec 30, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Is it NAMBLA?
I’ve heard it spoken, but never seen it written down so I didn’t know the acronym. Either way it seemed an appropriate joke to throw in there.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
You like totally missed the troll post
didn’t you?
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
I guess I should make it clear
I’m speaking to MutleyII.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
This comment is based on no statistical evidence and may be the lamest complaint ever, but
Is it always bad defense or is it sometimes bad luck? Billups 6/6 on 3’s?? After D Wright goes like 8/10 for three? Those are 2 of the worst losses of the season, and as bad as the Wolves are at defense (and they are brutal) that is just insanely hot shooting. Tonight JR Smith hit a big time contested long two after he had shot like crap all night. Why can’t that shot just rim out? Could have been a totally different game.
Again, lamest argument ever, but I can’t lie, it’s bugged me.
I know
But it just seems like some of these teams have just gone crazy hitting jumpers, going beyond the poor defense.
This was the first night I thought a team was more "hot" as opposed to we were giving up open shots
It was mainly just one guy who was hot though. Chauncey was just killing it, nothing else to say.
But, in other games, we were giving it up pretty easy, like a heartbreaking orphan in Poland. Dorrell Wright, Shawne Williams, Channing Frye…we had made some guys look like all-stars.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 29, 2010 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
Let's not tamper with the evidence
…It was 37, still bad :)
But at what point is it not just hot shooting?
Opponents shooting lights out from deep is a reoccurring ordeal because the Wolves’ defensive scheme lets opponents get good looks at 3s all night.
The Nuggets just kept running pick and roll with Billups all night, and the Wolves went under the screen every. single. time.
I don't disagree
I’m not saying that they are a solid defensive team that has been victimized by bad luck, but it’s just that some of these shooting percentages are so impressive even factoring in bad defense. Billups hit some contested 3’s tonight.
That's not entirely true,
didn’t Webster pick up a foul one time when he tried to go over the screen rather than under it? I don’t disagree with the foul call on that play, incidentally, but I just wish they would call it the same for both teams considering that in a game earlier this year against the Rockets Luis Scola knocked Telfair down twice and he wound up with two steals and 4 points for his efforts.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Yup, he did
Despite bumping the other guy with about half the force that Felton used on Ridnour/Flynn (can’t remember) when he came over a screen, bodychecked them and stole the ball for an uncontested fast break layup.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
It may eventually prove to this team's advantage to have to learn to play with many questionable calls/non-calls going the other way, but it sure adds a lot to the frustration of watching them right now.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
They are hot hands, true, but...
….the problem is we consistently get burned by hot hands from three. OJ Mayo: 5-9, Vince Carter: 4-5, Stephen Jackson: 5-6, Derrick Rose: 5-6, Raymond Felton: 5-8, Matt Barnes: 7-7, Channing Frye: 7-12…
When it’s that consistent at that volume, it’s definitely something wrong with the defense. Yes, hot shooting, but how much of that is because those guys are getting left wide open?
by Oceanary on Dec 29, 2010 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I forgot about Matt Barnes! Wow
I totally agree that the Wolves are awful at defending the perimeter, but look at those #’s? Line those guys up in practice and let them fire the same amount of shots and they might not always keep up that pace, I mean come on.
I think they could
these guys are pros and practice this stuff all the time. I’ve seen guys who don’t even play in college make 3 after 3 (i know its not the same distance but you get the idea). The only reason NBA players dont always shoot close to 75% is because of good defence.
I've noticed when playing
that my shot is completely different during game action than it is during the shoot around. Even if I’m wide open during a game my shot is completely different because I’ve got my adrenaline going. I think for me that matters even more than whether or not somebody is closing out on my shot.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Maybe you just solved it.
They’ve got less adrenaline pumping when going against a foe like the Wolves.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Either you did that from memory or spent a long time looking it all up.
Worth a rec either way.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Oh, That's just me.
Those were the two games I have been able to attend. I take full blame for insanely good shooting from the other team.
This is among my favorite fan weirdnesses, and we're all guilty of it at some point.
There’s something so odd about the idea that our watching really changes the outcomes…. We think things like this even when it’s just our watching on TV, don’t we?
I love that. Our minds are strange places.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'm heartened by all the close losses
Above average PG play and I think we have a borderline playoff (8th/9th in the West) team. Will Rubio provide that? That I don’t know.
It sucks...
but it’s just one more close game to think about this season. I’d rather be close and blowing games than getting blown out and not even competing. Things will get better!
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
Wasn't that bad of a game actually
I’m disappointed they lost, but they played better than they did in the Cleveland ‘win’ I thought.
You say they’re missing Melo and Nene, but that same team still managed to manhandle the Trailblazers last night so I don’t know why we should assume its a slam dunk. And K-Mart has been out most of the year hasn’t he? Fact of the matter is, Denver has a decent team that’s fairly deep. Just because a player doesn’t play a lot doesn’t mean he’s not good, he’s still a professional. When one key player is missing from the lineup they lean a little more on another key player, in this case Billups, who is a very good player who couldn’t miss from outside.
Not to mention that we were missing our two top interior defenders, AT and Darko. Denver went on some runs in the second half that could have been quelled by better interior defense.
A win would have been nice, but it’s not like we lost to a WNBA team.
Nene and K-Mart played last night against Portland
and combined for 27 points and 10 boards on 11-12 shooting. That’s a lot of contribution they were missing.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Plus, the most disappointing thing for me?
Last night against POR, the Nuggets played Ely, Williams and Balkman a combined 21 minutes.
Tonight, they had 20, 20 and 19, respectively. We needed to take advantage of that. And some of our inability to do that had to do with Darko going out.
It was pretty much a given that Denver’s point guards were going to beat us. In order for us to win, Beasley had to have a big game (check) and our bigs needed to decisively win their matchups (nope). That’s why it was so disappointing for me.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
In fairness,
Kevin Love was getting called for a lot of really cheap fouls because Chris Anderson is a better actor than NTAC Nicolas Cage (and that doesn’t even begin to deal with the strange non-calls when Balkman would plow through his man in order to disrupt an entry pass into the post). Without those crappy fouls, the last 3 minutes of the game plays out entirely differently. I can’t say for sure that it would have changed the loss into a win, but I can say it would have resulted in the last few minutes playing out in a decidedly different manner. Rather than trailing by 4 for most of the time down the stretch, we probably would have been tied or held a small lead during that time. We all know our defense is good at giving up leads like that, and our offense tends to turn the ball over quite a bit under those circumstances, but we also know that this team has yet to make a decisive run this season during crunch time to catch up from behind. Put us in that predicament and we’re effectively guaranteed to lose.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Couldn't believe a few of those calls.
We got called for a loose ball foul on nearly back to back possessions when our player had inside position on a rebound and the other player grabbed at them.
A better actor than Nicolas Cage??
Is he taller than Spudd Webb, too?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Yes, I believe he is taller than Spud Webb.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Check again. Could be the hairstyle.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
C'mon now....
Go watch Leaving Las Vegas and Adaptation. He, for whatever reason, loves doing gawdawful movies that make everyone forget that he is actually a good actor. Con Air, Ghost Rider, Bangkok Dangerous, etc.
I loved Adaptation,
but one of my reactions was that he was, like Burt in Elmer Gantry, playing himself. When “hapless loser” feels like typecasting, well…
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Fair
But the scenes near the end where Donald/Charlie are on the run together takes real talent to pull off successfully.
The end of that movie, where it's all coming together, is awesome. So funny.
Charlie Kaufman and Spike Jonze worked awfully well together. Oh, and “Donald” Kaufman, too. ;-)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I like Con Air.
That’s the only one of his cash grabs I’ll defend though. But I will defend it; mainly for Malkovich though.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
I actually like the 1st National Treasure...
and will watch it whenever it’s on TV.
I watched part of that with patients in an eating disorder inpatient program,
and they were saying how hard it would be to say the lines with a straight face.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Haha... there are definitely some terrible one-liners
Maybe I really watch b/c of Diane Kruger
Also watch Lord of War.
Great movie, and Nic Cage is good in it, even.
He has a handful of great flicks and a ton of duds.
Love: Adaptation, Raising Arizona, Leaving Las Vegas and Wild at Heart.
And he was great in Kick Ass.
(Raising Arizona, for sure.)
Now that there’s a masterpiece.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Don't forget how great he was in...
Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Of course, he wasn’t “Cage” at that time.
You can't dust for vomit.
I'm a sucker for Knowing
Thought it was highly underrated.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Bad Lieutenant: Port of New Orleans
Kinda trippy, but a good Cage flick.
So basically
Everyone secretly loves Cage and all his movies. Got it.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Just noticed this:
Nicolas Cage’s agent attempts to convince him to be more selective in choosing roles.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
It was pretty annoying that Anderson
Who looks absolutely RETARDED, by the way, would wait until Love locked him up then jostle him a bit and when Love retaliated he’d yell and throw himself backwards. Worked at least twice. Those calls should absolutely go to Love. The NBA is a respect and benefit of the doubt league because no matter how hard they try, the refs aren’t perfect and they form opinions based on outside influences. Kevin Love being the best rebounder in the NBA should factor in against the freaking Birdman.
The Nuggets announcers, whose drivel I had the pleasure of listening to due to league pass, kept indicating that there was a rookie ref out there and blaming him for bad calls. Kind of ironic considering how we got penalized much more than the nugs did by bad officiating.
Oh, also, our guys need to stop shooting 3 pointers with a foot on the line. I counted at least 3 lost points because of that.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
That last point is definitely true.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Forget which recent game it was, but
Hanny called three 3’s that were 2s and never corrected himself. If I thought he had a clue, I would have been going crazy wondering why the points hadn’t been posted.
You can't dust for vomit.
Not to mention that Portland is just a wreck right now
Roy’s injury has thrown that club into total chaos
They did get an impressive win in Utah on Monday night.
It’s not easy to win in that building.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
The Roy injury
is depressing for any NBA fan.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
They were only missing it...
If nobody else picks up the slack…which clearly didn’t happen.
High PFs and TOs
We beat ourselves again. And it had nothing to do with coaches, offensive schemes, or any of the other commonly cited reasons.
It had to do with committing fouls and turnovers:
Nuggets = 43 FTA
Wolves = 25 FTA
Nuggets = 12 turnovers
Wolves = 19 turnovers
That represents well over the margin of the loss and is emblematic of the Wolves performance in losses this season.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Much like a court finding you guilty or innocent of a crime does not imply actual guilt or innocence
Being whistled for a foul or not being whistled for a foul doesn’t imply that you actually committed one or not.
Now, the TOs, that’s real.
Beat me to the response I was going to make
and made more eloquently than I would have. The officiating was extremely one-sided, both in phantom calls for them and non-calls for us (even the elusive phantom-non-call, where a foul we should have gotten was called against us instead).
Part of me wonders if, the same way superstars get the benefit of the doubt in drawing fouls after a while, an entire team can get the same treatment based on past reputation. The Nuggets led the league in FTA last season, the season before that, and the season before that. By now, the refs probably show up to games ready to blow the whistle in their favor early and often.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Certain teams are consistently allowed to manhandle opponents
For me it is really a stark contrast when watching the Jazz and the Spurs two of the NBA’s most physical teams . They play at a similar pace but the Jazz are always top three in PFs committed and the Spurs are always bottom three. And they basically do the same nonsense – bumping people constantly in the post, holding cutters, two-handed checks on penetrators sliding under people on the block charge call.
I would love it...
If a true statistician had the time to watch every game in the NBA for a year, and catalogue the Type 1 and Type 2 errors by the refs. It would be off the f’ing charts. NBA refs are the worst of the worst, and it’s not even close.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I completely agree with this
Refs watch tape to get ready for games- why? Shouldn’t they just show up and objectively call the game?
If the NBA were refereed completely fairly it would be a very different league.
When you're rich you don't write checks...Straight Cash Homey!
by NuthinBurger on Dec 30, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Nah, watching tape is important.
You can see, for instance, that a certain player has a habit of hooking opponents on rebounds or pushing off on drives. You can anticipate what a player might try to get away with and watch for it during the game.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
It is what it is
I only state the facts, you are welcome to litigate each and every fouls if you choose, but it is what it is.
And it is what it has been. The Wolves are plagued with high PFs and high TOs.
Now, you can bitch and moan and say we aren’t getting the breaks but to what end? These stats aren’t going to change as a result of your bitching.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
by Flagrant on Dec 30, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fouls are indicative of bad defense
You can't dust for vomit.
Wes…Still knows how to disappear for extended periods. Hard to believe he played almost 31 minutes. Seemed more like 15. He has a ton of potential, but needs work on his footwork and needs to attack the rim and get to the line.
Beas…has been limiting his turnovers, and his new unselfish play seems to be opening up more open looks for himself as well. Hopefully this can happen consistently.
Martell…he’s playing a bit like Beasley did at the start of the season. Hopefully after he gets a few more games under his belt, the game will slow down a bit and he will cut down on the turnovers and crazy fouls.
Luke…has been playing much better basketball since Johnny returned. Maybe it’s because he now gets a chance to see what not to do with Johnny out there. One thing that I didn’t understand (not that it really mattered) was why at the end he even attempted to drive to the hoop when we were down by 6 with 8 seconds? Basically made it a 3 possession game instead of popping a quick 3, which seemed to be there.
Flynn…I actually liked him last year, but this year he seems arrogant and even more sloppy and lazy on D than ever. I would much rather see Telfair or even Gaines out there.
Darko…when he was on the floor it seemed like we were actually in control of the game. I feel like Love plays much better with Darko on the floor as well.
Kevin…got completely mugged on one play in particular, that I felt changed the momentum of the game. If he gets that call, I believe the outcome would have been different. He and Beas seem to have a nice chemistry, and they don’t appear to mind sharing the load (in a completely platonic sort of way that is).
One thing I do like about this season, is that every game I feel we have the POTENTIAL to win no matter who we are playing. Slowly I do believe we will start seeing that potential fulfilled. Hopefully we can stick it to NJ and get the momentum back heading into the New Year!
Plus one what?
What does that even mean in this context? How is the worth your posting and my and everyone else’s having to press ‘Z’ and extra time to move past it to something of substance?
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 30, 2010 4:20 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Harsh.
Just agreeing with the guy, man.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions
I wasn't mad.
Though I do think the +1 thing has overstayed its welcome. In this case, I was a little put-off by the that now we’re being reduced to +1ing giant posts that offer many separate observations specific to the Denver game, none of which are strong opinions that need to be supported. If it’s gotten to that point, the +1 has lost whatever shred of meaning/usefulness it once had.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Way harsh...
Is there some axe being ground here?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
(I'd rather people just "rec" things, too, personally.)
It’s not a big deal, but the eloquence of saying “+10000000000” to something doesn’t add that much. No skin off anyone’s knuckle, though.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
The funny part is that
to protest the extra second it took to click past the “+1” post, John Doe took at least 30 seconds to write his reply, and now four people have responded to that reply, meaning that what was originally just one click through is now six.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Seven.
For me it’s not so much the extra clicks…. I kind of like to see a green comment show up when someone’s done a little work, or thought with a little bit of originality.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Dec 30, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You gotta look long term
How much time might eventually be saved? The +1 thing needs to die.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Wes
needs to become cold-blooded. He missed his first couple shots and returned to being differential to his team mates. He had 5 assists.
Last game he was constantly reminded to shot by team mates and coaches. He needs to be cold-blooded like Beasley.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Simple spelling clarification:
deferential (not differential).
And I agree about Johnson needing to find his assassin’s cloak.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Are those in stock in the Wolves' locker room.
Invisibility cloaks seem to be in good supply, either way.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Johnson seems to wear his invisibility cloak every game.
Only sometimes he doesn’t keep it wrapped very tightly so he shows up from time to time during games.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
wes doesn't have the game
no handles and can’t take it to the rim unless the lane is wide open. he needs to attend a steve nash skills camp.
handles...
I feel like such a big part of his ‘handles’ are actually his footwork and balance. Now he’s basically a spot up shooter, but I hope in the off-season he doesn’t nothing but watch tape of Ray Allen on footwork and how to move without the ball. I actually think he’s going to get there, it will just take a bit of work. I’m still glad we took him over Cousins!
Wes
strikes me as a shy guy who wants to make his team mates happy rather than go for the jugular. He needs to start eating nails for breakfast.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
totally...
And it kind of makes sense why he’s been playing better at home. Shy people are always more comfortable in familiar surroundings.
He needs to find his Burgess Meredith who can motivate him!
Exactly...
He was this way at Cuse. Insane ability, but just didn’t have the will to use it.
Wes Johnson is the siren song, and we all get sucked in, but I fear he just doesn’t have the shit in his britches…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
So he eats the iron spikes to break his nightly fast,
and now he’s fearlessly dribbling it off his own thigh when he touches the ball. Yay!
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Be careful what you wish for...
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I've noticed
When he catches with a defender closing out on him, he pump fakes every time, but then is looking to shoot a jumper regardless of how the defender reacts to it, even in situations where he should be driving. This problem will only grow as other teams catch on.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
from San Diego Wolf
seems like we are watching the same feeds.
love and beasley do have great chemistry. you can see they are in it together, which is a great sign for our future…especially with beasley cementing the 3 position.
consistency has been our issue all year. luke played good tonight, but the center position was a mess. can you imagine if nene and/or k-mart would have played? yikes.
kahn needs to quit messing around and get rid of flynn and brewer. these 2 players give us so much hope mixed with despair…it’s just not fair to the fans or the coaches. can’t we just have 1 guard that is consistent every night?
Yeah, but...
I’m actually in the camp that doesn’t mind bringing Brewer off the bench at times for energy and certain match-ups. At least he has heart and plays hard (albeit often out of control). Johnny on the other hand seems to falling into the category of trying to be all flash and no substance. Somebody needs to tell him that it actually makes him look stupid to dribble between his legs 20 times in a row while just standing there. Even Luke tries hard, he just can’t stay in front of some of the bigger, more explosive PG’s in the NBA.
If Wes played with that same abandon as Brewer, he would be unstoppable.
Brewer is best in small doses.
There’s a role for guys like him, but the thing is, the abandon with which he plays is hurting him. We all love the effort – I would get a big kick out of it in summer league – but even on defense the guy has a lot of lapses that are just dumb. Corey’s never gotten to the point where he’s letting the game flow, he’s always trying to force everything.
If the two players could meet in the middle in terms of “motor,” both of them would be better.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Yeah
Imagine Wes with Corey or Renaldo Balkman’s energy. Balkman was hugely disruptive last night and it was 100% energy. I don’t think he even took a shot that wasn’t a dunk, but his defense and hustle were huge. Wes easily has the athleticism to play like that PLUS he can shoot it. He’s just too passive.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
This is a good summary
Kevin…got completely mugged on one play in particular, that I felt changed the momentum of the game. If he gets that call, I believe the outcome would have been different. He and Beas seem to have a nice chemistry, and they don’t appear to mind sharing the load (in a completely platonic sort of way that is).
There was a foul where Love grabbed an offensive rebound and Anderson gave a foul that went uncalled. Love gathered himself and then Balkman almost decapitated him. Those two FTAs would have been absolutely huge as a momentum breaker alone.
exactly
The plays I was talking about. If I’m not mistaken, the lack of call ended up in fast break points for the Nugs.
Funny
I figured you were talking about Balkman holding and pushing Love as he reached around him for the deflection.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
According to those refs
it’s not a reach-in if your shoulder is in the other guy’s armpit
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Luke
At the end there, I honestly just assumed he had given up and no one cared to try to come back. It seemed almost lackadaisical on that last possession.
Love
Where did he go in the 2nd half? I didnt catch but bits and pieces of it so I’m not trying to point a finger at him, just wondering if they started D’ing him up, were the refs that bad or did he have a Laker relapse?
Loser? How many beers can YOU drink?
I believe Love was 1-7 in the 2nd half.
He was 4-4 from the line.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
This was the type of game Klove
is supposed to dominate in. No athletic 4’s just bums out there.
He get gassed way too much
He needs to only play 30 min a game otherwise his body gives out on him.
Well...
I think that’s a little dramatic, he actually has had some nice 2nd halves lately. But it’s nice when Darko is in there more, because KL doesn’t have to bang as much. I know you’re not a fan of Love. So do you think the team is worse off when he’s in there? Or do you just not buy into him being an all-star type player?
Err look at his December splits
Averaging nearly 40 minutes a night putting up an insanely efficient 23 and 16. So yeah, he doesn’t need to be limited to 30 minutes.
It never ceases to amaze me how willing you are to just make things up out of whole cloth.
I can't wait for his next response though.
You can bet it won’t include any reference to the replies behind it, just a headlong Quixotian charge toward his next failed take.
“He should have dominated.”
“He did. You’re completely wrong.”
(No acknowledgment of the exchange.) “He gets tired because he’s fat!”
“He’s been playing more minutes than almost any NBA big man and doing just fine. You’re completely wrong.”
(I anticipate no acknowledgment) “He only cares about his stats!”
I wonder how long it will take before we can all just let him tilt at his windmills without disturbing his delusions with our facts. I think it would be mutually beneficial, were we to ever get there.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on Dec 30, 2010 4:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
they cannt trade him
becuas of the PR hit.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
by PoorDick on Dec 30, 2010 8:28 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
They took a PR Hit
When they traded for all Jefferson. Jefferson did not have the national following love has. So yes it will be a huge PR hit.
BTW I am still planing on moving to Asia check this story out http://www.cnbc.com/id/40827126
I will pay your first month's rent
if you move to an Asian country with limited internet access.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
by PoorDick on Dec 30, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Asian country with limited internet acces
Those are very few indeed. I am not going to move to some back water country in Asia. I am thinking about Singapore.
Be aware
that living in Singapore has some downsides, especially if you love to spit:
Visitors should be aware of Singapore’s strict laws and penalties for a variety of actions that might not be illegal or might be considered minor offenses in the United States. These include jaywalking, littering and spitting. Singapore has a mandatory caning sentence for vandalism offenses. Authorities in Singapore may also impose caning for immigration violations and other offenses. Commercial disputes that may be handled as civil suits in the United States can escalate to criminal cases in Singapore and may result in heavy fines and prison sentences.
There are no jury trials in Singapore. Judges hear cases and decide sentencing. The Government of Singapore does not provide legal assistance except in capital cases; legal assistance may be available in some other cases through the Law Society.
by Madison Dan on Dec 30, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
I think chuckd's
demonstrated ability to blend in to an unfamiliar community and sense the general tone of others’ comments and perceptions (both spoken and unspoken) will serve him well over there.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
by PoorDick on Dec 30, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
It cant be any worse than the usa
the us has the worlds highest incarceration rate
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration
Perhaps you didn't read this part of the link:
Singapore has a mandatory death penalty for many narcotics offenses.
There’s a reason their jails are less full. Not that we don’t execute people, but not for drug offenses.
Look at what we kill
Mosquitos and flies….cause they’re pests!
Lions and tigers….cause it’s fun!
Chickens and pigs…cause we’re hungry!
Pheasants and quails…cause it’s fun! And we’re hungry!
And PEOPLE! WE KILL PEOPLE!….cause they’re pests. And it’s fun!
/george carlin.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
I dont do drugs
so I don’t have to worry about that. But I do want a job
Yes, because the natural comparison with the Al Jefferson trade is Kevin Love.
Um, they dealt their Hall of Fame player in KG for Jefferson, and THEY TOOK A P.R. HIT IN SO DOING. What in heaven’s name does that have to do with Kevin Love?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
well when I post things
I am not obsessed with numbers. I just wrote something in response to what tim Allen said were love went 1-7 in the second half. This seems to me that he is getting tried out there. Love is undersized and not a great athlete to compensate for this he has to work hard to get boards. Plus now he gets more attention from the other teams this is very taxing his body.
Ask yourself honestly:
If Michael Beasley had a poor game in which the other team was constantly doubling him aggressively, you would absolutely credit the attention he was getting for other Wolves players’ decent games around that. Right? You basically attempted to say that Love’s good first half last night was “easy” because Beasley was on the floor. He had 20 and 8 at halftime, and you said that was easy.
You have exactly the opposite sort of reaction to Love having relatively bad games, or even bad quarters, despite the fact that other teams obviously – we can read quotes about this every game – are game planning specifically to keep Love off the boards and so on.
The fact that you have such different reactions should be pretty telling to you.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
The 20 points is Easy
but the rebounding is not. That takes work. Hitting open jump shots is easy. Steve Ker made a living off doing this. Love does not create his own shot other people do it for him.
20 points is easy, hitting open jump shots is easy, one of the best shooters of all-time made a living off this!
Come on man. If it was that easy, the league would have a whole hell of a lot of 20 ppg guys and jump shooting wouldn’t be thought of as a lost art by cranky old guys on porches.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
You are right its a skill that few can do
But because you can hit a few open shots does not make you an all star. Role players like Steve Ker and BJ Armstrong hit open shots. But was Steve Ker Steve and BJ Armstrong all stars no.
Kerr and Armstrong may have hit 20 points
on rare occasions, but neither one every averaged 20 points. Even if its not that hard to score 20 points in the NBA, it’s definitely hard to average 20 points in the NBA, which Love is doing.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
But wally did
wally did not create his own shot. And he became an all star. so I was wrong about players that don’t create their own shots don’t become all stars. Love will make the all star team. I am still shocked that he does not have more votes. The coaches will put him on the team
I doubt he'll be there this year, personally.
The coaches might hold back on Blake because he can still play the Rookie-Sophomore game, but even without that competition there are just too many names. No way does Love knock Tim Duncan off the ASG roster, for example.
Betcha it takes a couple more years, at least, if he ever gets there.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Stupid F-ing Yao and China
There needs to be some sort of minutes played requirement to get on the ballot so we can stop this farcical Yao voting and get Duncan in as a C. The West is way too deep at the forward spots for this crap.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
All sorts of voting refinements could work. But hey, it's an All Star Game.
I’d almost rather they played it against the Globetrotters. Naming the roster is the most exciting part.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
This year it's a good thing!
Check out the centers on the West ballot. Not only do none of them deserve to be starting, but arguably, none of them should be All-Stars, period.
When Yao wins the vote and can’t play, Pau Gasol or Tim Duncan will be made the new starting center, and an extra bench spot will be freed up for someone who deserves it (Kevin Love) rather than a deserving player being left off so that, say, Andrew Bynum can be an ASG starter.
I totally agree that the voters are numbskulls in general though.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Maybe I am a little off base with this one
Love scored 20 points when Beasley was hurt. Yes its a small sample but love did produce.
incorrect on the other people creating all his shots
The only shots that others create with him, are pick and pops. Either 3’s or elbow jumpers. He creates his own jump hooks, 10 ft jumpers and certainly creates his offensive rebound put backs. Your negative shtick is terribly transparent, but then, we all reply, don’t we?
But what you think to be the case, time and time again
is demonstrably untrue. Love played nearly 40 minutes a game in December and had by far the best per minute production of his career. He does not, in any sense, need to be limited to 30 minutes.
Now the fact that you are sure that was the case from what you “saw from watching the games” is telling because “what you saw from watching the games” didn’t actually occur. Normally when someone has a method of reaching conclusions that leads to wholly incorrect conclusions they stop using that method. And barring that, other people stop taking anything they say or write seriously. Well, consider me “other people.”
by Ailuridae on Dec 30, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
You just need to take more time on your posts.
Tim’s post had a detail about Love playing poorly during the second half. You immediately jumped to your preferred conclusion, that he didn’t dominate the game. When someone corrected you on that one, you changed it to a different one that was more accurate, but still not totally right. Did he wear down here? Maybe, maybe not. Has that been a pattern for him lately? Certainly not.
When you see an opportunity to bash Love, fine, bash away. But get it right the first time and stop trying to use any detail you can latch onto to make ridiculous extrapolations about his falsely perceived inadequacies.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Quixotic?
<3 JD
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I think he's a little like KG in that
He works so hard during the earlier part of the game (keeping us in it) that he runs down towards the end.
Absolutely he should get in better shape. I don’t understand how you can argue that. It’s clear he gets tired, and just because he’s still our best option while tired doesn’t mean he’s the best he can be. He needs to work on his defense and he needs to get in better shape. I think most of us, including ChuckD, think he’s an all star or nearly all star caliber player. ChuckD doesn’t seem to think he’ll improve some of these things whereas I do, but believe it will take time. That’s different than saying he doesn’t need to improve.
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
The only thing wrong with that is that it isn't true.
If Love would have consistently played forty minutes a game in his rookie year he would’ve passed out, he was in terrible shape as a rookie. He’s lost a considerable ammount of weight since then and gotten in better shape just look at pictures from his rookie season to now.
Love has played almost forty minutes a game this month and he is easily having the best month of his career. I didn’t hear him complaining about his minutes when he dropped fourteen points in the fourth quarter, he’s just nitpicking to try to make his, so called, point which is to get rid of the best player on the team for someone who is a better athlete(he doesn’t have to be a better player, i.e. Anthony Randolph, he just has to be a better athlete).
Wow, does this ever contradict any sort of, you know, *evidence.*
In his rookie year and last year, both, people would say things like this. Wittman/McHale/Rambis wasn’t playing him because he’d get too tired.
This season has essentially demolished this argument. Go look at the game lines, during which the guy has put up huge numbers, and tell me about the evidence for this assertion. Go find some game threads. You aren’t going to see what you’re talking about, and there are a lot of games where Love has played lots of minutes. He’s been above 40 minutes eleven times so far.
This is one more example of how, without checking our assumptions, we don’t see stuff right.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
The Love needs to play limited minutes motif had its problems
Including that is was always an intellectually dishonest argument put forth by people who often argued in bad faith. Ignoring the league wide trend going back a generation (The Milsap Doctrine) all one had to do was look at Love’s actual production in starter vs reserve and see that he was playing just as well with more minutes.
There was never any “there” there. I’m still waiting for anybody (and I mean anybody) who put forward those insufferable arguments here and on twolvescentral to just own up to it. It’ll be a long, long time I suspect.
All true
But I would like to see him get more in-shape. He’s still got some rolly-polly going on there, and while it’s not “hurting him” necessarily, I doubt it helps (save his big rear-end). And he’s had some issues with cramps it seems, which would indicate that his conditioning still needs improvement.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
I'm a crossfitter and the basketball fans among us often wonder
what would happen if you took players who had glaring physical deficiencies that could be fixed with better nutrition and conditioning and worked with them. Since it is no fun to talk about the bad players Love is always one of the first names that comes up. FWIW, so does Durant. As great as he is (and as very good as Love is) it is crazy to think how much better both could be. They are 21 and 22 though. KG had his lightbulb moment about conditioning far later than that.
So, yes, I think Love should get in better shape. But but his conditioning doesn’t affect him in a way that minutes zero to ten are consistently more productive than minutes 30-40
I do wonder
what a long season of 40 min. games will do to his, or anybody’s body.
by WinTheLottery on Dec 30, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
That's a legit concern.
It doesn’t appear to hurt him on a single game basis, but there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that those 40 minute nights add up. At least he’s young.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I'll settle for the bad players, as you know, down in the D-League.
A team could score pretty big by just investing some marginal money (by NBA contract standards) in basic nutrition and coaching stuff that ‘the minors’ in pro sports don’t have so much. Even baseball was always short-sighted about this, as of a decade back anyway. Guys with multi-million dollar signing bonuses were bouncing around on buses, with little training regimen, eating fast food.
There have to be guys down in the Developmental League who just lack conditioning or weight training or whatever, and who could contribute.
Basketball’s culture resists weightlifting, to begin with, which starts to seem pretty silly when you see the results guys like Karl Malone and Kevin Willis had by putting on more muscle.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
See, and the problem I have is that you assume the Milsap
Doctrine is true. It’s not.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Actually it is true
You just have a problem with inductive reasoning. Players do not, as a class, become less productive on a per minute basis with more minutes. Love is just another example of that trend. As is Milsap who the doctrine is named for. There are exceptions – but they are just that: exceptional. The trend is clear and undeniable.
I haven't seen any compelling evidence that makes
it clear or undeniable.
But my larger point is that, while you often throw around the term ‘intellectually dishonest’, it might be that sometimes people just don’t accept your assumptions. That may seem like being intellectually dishonest to you, but really, it’s just disagreement.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Google the term. The studies are there. If you disagree with it you are simply disagreeing with inductive reasoning. Not much else to be said unless you want to make an argument that there was something unique about the season where they did the work.
But it doesn’t make a different. A lot of folks here have wrongly, for years asserted that it was “simple common sense” and “obvious” that NBA players as a class become less productive on a per minute basis as they play more minutes. The Milsap Doctrine research definitely established that is not the case.
I've read Pelton's post on
basketball prospectus and I agree that Millsap improved with more minutes. And that Love is doing that same. But those are two players. And there are other players who haven’t done as well with more minutes (guys like Trevor Ariza and Rashad McCants come to mind). And when Googling the term, I can’t find anywhere that has the data to support any kind of trend.
Personally, I don’t think players become less productive on a per minute basis as they play more minutes. I don’t think its possible to subscribe an accurate trend to it, since some players will improve with more minutes and some won’t.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
FFS for the fifteenth time
It is not just two players. It was a study looking at every player in the NBA who received a large bump in minutes does to injury or suspension in the season in question. And those players as a class did not see a drop in production.
From Pelton’s BP piece which you keep claiming to have read:
A little over a year ago, in the midst of one such debate, I helped Tom Ziller compile numbers for BallHype.com looking at the performance of reserves who, like Millsap, suddenly saw their playing time increase dramatically because of the loss of the player ahead of them on the depth chart. Conceptually, this study (based on a similar one done by John Hollinger in the original Pro Basketball Prospectus book) avoided the usual pitfalls of assessing performance based on playing time, namely that players naturally tend to play more when they play well.
Just because Pelton claims to have
compiled the numbers doesn’t mean that I have to agree with his take in that article. I want to see the actual numbers and the actual trend, not Pelton’s opinion of it.
So if you have those numbers, then please, link me.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I've linked you to those numbers in the past
multiple times. You know, when you were deconstructing advanced stats. If you want the data from Kevin Pelton’s study you’ll have to email him or Tom Ziller.
Alternately, you can claim that they are running an elaborate con job.
BTW, where ever did that deconstructing advanced stats (PART 1) post of yours ever go?
No, you linked me to the BP piece
multiple times. You never linked me to the actual numbers. And BallHype.com apparently doesn’t even exist anymore.
And I don’t think they’re running a con job. But they could be wrong or could be making assumptions that make their arguments invalid. That’s why I’d like to see the data.
I deleted it.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
No I linked the conclusions of the ballhype piece
The one of my many responses to that post.
I deleted it.
What was that you were saying about being intellectually dishonest again?
How is that intellectually dishonest?
At some point this summer – I forget exactly what day – I deleted all of my old fan posts and fan shots. Not just that one.
And sorry, but I visited every link you sent me, and you never linked me to the conclusions of the ballhype piece. That’s just straight up not true.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Nope
Not a chance. As I explicitly remember quoting to you the statistics about rebounding rate to then do down the rabbit hole of you denying the validity of looking at rate statistics. Which again, is one of the reasons it is so pointless to have these “discussions” with you. I might as well be talking a creationist about comparative anatomy.
If you really doubt Pelton’s conclusions use your bully pulpit here to demand the study. Heck accuse him of being a fraud on the front page as you often do in comments about, say, Dave Berri.
But I’m not in the business of defending people and statistical work about someone who is so scared to admit that he’s been wrong, wrong wrong that he has cornered himself into a position where he is effectively denying the validity of statistical inference.
Here we go again.
Just because I disagree with your version of statistical inference doesn’t mean I disagree with all statistical inference. Just like if I say Kevin Love looks out of shape, and you disagree with me, doesn’t mean that you reject the validity of observation. It just means you reject my observation.
I don’t know what bully pulpit you think I have here.Besides, I admit I’m wrong all the time. I was wrong about Kevin Love – I didn’t think he’d be near this good. I was wrong about Flynn – I thought he’d be a lot better than he is. I wish I were right more often.
Funny, I’ve never heard you admit you’re wrong.
And yes, Dave Berri is a fraud.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I like a lot of Berri's work - the only guy who was saying KG was the MVP in the early 2000s
But his Iverson bashing….well, it hurt. Hurt a lot.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Tim
There aren’t “versions of statistical inference”. You either accept that is valid or you don’t. If you don’t, broadly, you are rejecting modernity. You have repeatedly and without a semblance of doubt demonstrated that you reject statistical inference as such in the past. You have elected to delete the entirety of the thread demonstrating this because rightly you found it quite embarrassing.
Again, this is a settled matter for me.
You don't know what you're talking about
John Hollinger can make inferences from a stat differently than you do. That means there are versions of statistical inference.
Just because I don’t agree with someone’s conclusions based off of a study does not mean I reject statistical inference or modernity or anything of the sort. Stop using that as an excuse to not provide the data to back up your claims.
And I found nothing embarrassing. I deleted those old posts because, back when I was going to leave the site, I wanted to delete all of those posts as well. I wish I hadn’t, trust me. But nothing I can do about that now.
The matter is only settled in your head. Stop using Pelton’s study as evidence if you can’t even provide that evidence.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I don't own Pelton's intellectual property
The study was posted for all the world to see for two years. I linked you to it no fewer than a half dozen times. You can email Ziller and Pelton and demand the study or tell them that you will expose them as frauds like you have so deftly with Dave Berri.
I find you’re story about deleting those old posts, dubious, to say the least.
Find it dubious all you want
You were the reason I was leaving the site in the first place.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Yes, I did.
You’re lying through your teeth. Maybe you should talk to someone about that.
This could all be settled if you hadn’t deleted your posts. Sadly it seems that comments in your posts were also deleted.
Five posts of yours up this thread
You were trying to pretend that the Milsap doctrine only looked at his statistics. This is something I have corrected you on no more than a dozen times. After I pointed that it looked at all the players in that year (again for at least the dozenth time) you claimed you were reserving judgment until you saw the data. So which is it?
Are you starting to see why I don’t think you are intellectually honest, at all?
First you wrote:
I’ve read Pelton’s post on
basketball prospectus and I agree that Millsap improved with more minutes. And that Love is doing that same. But those are two players. And there are other players who haven’t done as well with more minutes (guys like Trevor Ariza and Rashad McCants come to mind). And when Googling the term, I can’t find anywhere that has the data to support any kind of trend.
The BP article
says this,
“A little over a year ago, in the midst of one such debate, I helped Tom Ziller compile numbers for BallHype.com looking at the performance of reserves who, like Millsap, suddenly saw their playing time increase dramatically because of the loss of the player ahead of them on the depth chart. Conceptually, this study (based on a similar one done by John Hollinger in the original Pro Basketball Prospectus book) avoided the usual pitfalls of assessing performance based on playing time, namely that players naturally tend to play more when they play well.
Lo and behold, the data showed that these players tended to improve their performance when given more regular minutes, contradicting the critics’ naysaying. There’s a perfectly logical explanation for why this would be the case. Given more playing time, players have a chance to get warm and play through their mistakes instead of constantly watching the bench and waiting for their coach to pull them from the game."
However, since the data from that study is not provided – and the only data that is provided is from Paul Millsap – the extent of evidence that I’ve seen regarding the Paul Millsap Doctrine are stats from Paul Millsap.
The link to BallHype.com in the article does not work.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Earlier you tried to represent
for at least the tenth time that Pelton was only looking at Milsap’s data despite him plainly writing that he was looking at all the reserves. Are you denying this?
And then after being called on it you demanded to see that data. Well send him an email and ask for it. And then maybe you can deconstruct some advanced stats and show that he, too, is a fraud.
The reason we have to have this back and forth is that you deleted the post that had my comment with the ballhype data in it. And you did it because you found it, rightfully, quite embarrassing.
Actually, I didn't say that Pelton
was only looking at Millsap’s data. So yes, I would deny that charge.
And I’ve already said that I don’t think Pelton is a fraud. I just want to look at the data. Maybe he’s right. If he is, great, then I’ll admit it. If he isn’t or if I think he missed something, then I can see it. But I need the data before I can accept his observations of that data.
The reason why have this back and forth is because you are pissed that someone called you on your assertion and had the gall to ask you for concrete proof, which you seem incapable or unwilling to provide.
I was not and am not embarrassed about that post. I wish it still existed. I didn’t deleted it because of what was in that post. No more than I deleted every other post of mine (prior to that point) because of that reason.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
The reason we are having this back and forth
is because you won’t admit that I have already linked you the ball hype piece in the past. The reason I am not interested in chasing down the data myself is that there is really no way the conclusions are inaccurate. It was published publicly for anyone to see for years without anyone disputing the data. Anyone.
Now you’re matter of last resort is to insist to see the data set. Fine, Ask for it and then do an analysis. But I am going to take it at face value that the editor of Basketball Prospectus and the entire APBR community got it right over the hysterical suspicions of someone who couldn’t himself do statistical analysis.
I am sure, much like with Oceanary’s absurd “Beasley as a PF” piece you’ll be the first to admit you got it all very wrong.
Oceanary did admit that
the data, and his conclusions based off of that data, were inaccurate.
If you want to take that data at face value, great. But you can’t reasonable ask someone else to do so.
And you never linked me to that piece.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
So the cops knew internal affairs were in on it the whole time?
Stop. Both of you. Just stop.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
I'm off
I wish I could say this had been enjoyable or that I learned something.
Please publish your conclusions once you ask Kevin Pelton for the data. I suggest “Deconstructing Advanced Stats (Part 2)” as a title.
Just e-mailed Pelton
through his website. I’ll get back to you.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Just got the link to
their post. Let’s just say that you were a little less than intellectually honest yourself in this thread. I’ll be creating a FanPost shortly.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
You expected it in
13 hours? Sorry, I’m not that quick with the turn around. I’m shooting for Sunday.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
It takes thirteen hours for you to
post the link to their original research?
I didn't know you wanted me to post it
How would I have known that?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Because you kept demanding I track down the research and post it myself
So where’s the link?
I figured
since you claim you linked me so many times, you’d already have it.
I’ll post the link when I write my FanPost.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
If you have it
why do you want me to post it now? I don’t understand.
And I actually have my therapist appointments scheduled months in advance. I have one coming up in mid-January. But I appreciate your concern.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I want you to post the link
in somewhere besides a fanpost you will likely later delete.
Sorry, you'll just have to wait.
Have a Happy New Year. =)
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
That's not what Tim is doing, at least here.
I do statistical studies for a living, and I don’t implicitly trust the competence (I didn’t say integrity) of every other analyst either. People can make mistakes, they can interpret results differently, results can be driven by outliers, etc. Tim is being more skeptical than I am about the study in question, but his point (that they could have made mistakes or relied upon assumptions) is not wrong.
Sorry, Dan
That is exactly what Tim is doing he just can’t come out and write it.
Why?
Why is all this necessary? Your arrogance is astonishing. Debate is great, but who’s enjoying this? And are you really going to sleep better tonight knowing that you defeated all of the morons who don’t agree with you?
Why do you need to reply to my comments?
Why? Oh Why?
Because
I’m tired of seeing you berate people and say that they don’t agree with an entire method of reaching conclusions simply because they find fault with particular instances of how it was employed. It’s just unnecessary to take it that far.
Maybe take some things with a little humor, and have a little humility in your reasoning.
because it's really hard to skip over them
when you’re reading the thread. Maybe you could put your posting handle in the headline so we could skip over them more easily?
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
I found it a decently interesting read.
I love a good efight.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
OK...
I don’t really care about the Millsap Doctrine stuff, I have no horse in this race.
That said, telling people that don’t accept the conclusions of a study that they “disagree with inductive reasoning” is a great way to win friends and influence people. Keep up the good work.
exactly
The point of arguing is to try and get others to agree with you or at least understand your point of view.
Demeaning and berating people who may disagree with you strikes me as a poor strategy of persuasion.
Abrasiveness only creates animosity.
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 31, 2010 2:18 AM CST up reply actions
My problem with the doctrine is
that coaches don’t give more minutes to players who don’t produce,
unless they have to.
Bad sample set
by WinTheLottery on Dec 30, 2010 7:15 PM CST up reply actions
well, I believe they only look at injury-induced increases in playing time
that is, they look at players who went from 10-15 game to 35 or so minutes per game because someone on their team was injured. They argue, I assume, that the sample of players who see increased minutes because of injury is “as good as random.”
Their hearts are definitely in the right place in terms of looking for “as good as random” variation in playing time. But there are always limitations.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
The players who go from 10 - 30 min.
are the ones who continue to produce.
If not, there are other options to pursue, teammates,
10 day contracts, fill in by committee, etc…
by WinTheLottery on Dec 31, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
2nd half...
I think it was a combo of a few things. He got into a bit of foul trouble, probably was a little gassed, and needed to have either Darko or Pek out there to help him out down low. Oh, plus he was completely slaughtered on a few played with no calls, and fell victim to an Anderson flop.
Big Al is looking very good right now against the Clips.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Don't go there...
It’s like comparing apples and oranges…
Never would have happened here, and we all know it…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
All I was saying was that he's looking good against the Clips.
Not implying that he should be here. I’m happy for him.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
crazy end to kings/grizz game
mayo hit what was the game winner with 1.5 secs left and no timeouts…
but tyreke nailed one from 3/4 court to win by 2.
Yep, amazing finish
And Sac gets a much needed W
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Off-Topic Question...
Why aren’t there any alternate, black Wolves Jerseys on the NBA shop? I need to get a black beasley jersey, and I can’t find one!
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
best bet is at the games now
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Dec 30, 2010 12:04 AM CST up reply actions
Jesus.
So there’s no chance they just make some more?! lol
(I live on the East Coast…sigh)
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
dang
they went fast. needs a few of those as birthday presents.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I mean, they've got the replica
But I can’t drop 250 bucks on a t-shirt without sleeves.
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
Sew some sleeves on it then.
Classic look.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Sounds like an excellent biz opp
for some t-shirt shop with a P.O. Box for a mailing address
The NBA, like Wall Street and this country in general is now all about artificial scarcity and jacking prices.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Did we mention the story about the two felony counts the other day?
Selling of knockoff jerseys leads to felony charges
Because going to prison for 8 years due to selling imitation sports jerseys is proportionate justice.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Protecting intellectual property is important.
Far more important than protecting people from themselves I’d say. Nothing is more out-of-whack than vice laws in my opinion. I’d wager that half of all the prisons in the U.S.A. could be shut down if we stopped the silly war on drugs and started to treat them more like we treat alcohol or prescription medications. If we ever want to find a way out of the National Debt, all the government really has to do is take over the narcotics industry and start licensing out the privilege of using cocaine, heroine, marijuana, etc. $400B a year going straight towards paying off the National Debt, rather than adding $50B to the National Debt every year.
And I’m not even a user of any controlled substances. I’m just a rational citizen looking for a rational solution.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
But what about
the safety net costs of unemployed pushers?
by WinTheLottery on Dec 30, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
I think its simple.
Legalize weed and tax it.
by bringthesun on Dec 30, 2010 1:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Does protecting intellectual property necessarily entail *sending people to prison* for crimes whose only victim
is the corporate interests who lost revenue on sales of hologram-logo merchandise?
(If you read the article, you’ll see the other victims here, of course: Poor, poor fans who purchase a jersey and then discover it has – gasp! – substandard stitching! Send ’em to the Big House, I say!)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Don't even get me started on the flaws of capitalism.
But the reality is that the NBA (and other trademark holders) have worked to develop the value of that hologram-logo that consumers look to in order to identify the merchandise as meeting a specific standard of quality. And the merchandise manufacturers pay a substantial licensing fee for the privilege of selling merchandise with the logo of our favorite sports team printed on it.
Realistically, trademark violation is analogous to identity theft at a corporate level. If we are appalled at the person who takes our social security number and destroys our lives by defrauding creditors in our name, then we should likewise be appalled by the person who passes off substandard merchandise as the genuine article.
As for the poor, poor fans, if it’s so important for them to have the logo on their jersey then why aren’t they willing to pay for it? Why not just get a blank jersey and iron on a homemade patch to show the desired affiliation with a particular player or organization? Or get some paint and decorate a coffee mug to do the same? If the NBA wants to see their merchandise in the hands of all the poor, poor fans they can license production only to companies that will agree to keep the cost for the final product at a level that is affordable by everyone. The long and the short of it is that the NBA is trying to milk their brand for as much money as possible, so ultimately they’re the ones responsible for the counterfeiters being prosecuted, not the government.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
The NBA has worked to create value?
Using lawyers to create artificial scarcity could be viewed quite differently, you know. We used to have anti-monopoly laws. What’s wrong with standardized licensing fees and then letting anyone make the jerseys and gear?
It’s not like David effing Stern is having any of this stuff made in the USA….
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Yes, they have.
They promote the game both domestically and abroad. I don’t believe they had to work very hard to promote their league, but they did have to win out against the ABA back before the merger. The NBA is not exactly a good example of a brand that worked to achieve value in a trademark, but other trademark holders don’t have it so easy.
As I said before, I don’t want to get started on the flaws of capitalism. The concentration of wealth is a dangerous thing historically. The disappearance of the middle class is a strong indicator of a coming revolution. Capitalism has this country headed in that direction. However, mass communication may be single-handedly holding back the onslaught.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Without touching entitlements
That doesn’t do much though I do disagree with you on eliminating penalties for victimless crimes..
by OdinFromValhalla on Dec 31, 2010 2:26 AM CST up reply actions
Or music "stealing" that leads to fines in the millions of dollars
which is in no way anything like cutting someone’s hand off for stealing a loaf of bread because the loaf of bread has actual value whereas the digital music file is just a bunch of numbers that your mp3 player thinks has a beat.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Tell that to the sound engineer who makes a modest wage
and gets laid off because some people think its “no big deal” to pirate music.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I'm absolutely in sympathy with that sound engineer.
I help with office work for a small local music group, organize trips for them and so on.
But again, the question here is about proportionate justice. The pillory, or years in prison, is well beyond the level of punishment that is proportionate for the crime of selling a fake NHL jersey. Million-dollar punitive damages for trading music files is way, way out of proportion.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
That's true. The punishments often
do seem disproportionate. You’re right.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
If it's just one song or one fake jersey,
then sure that’s disproportionate. But if you’ve been supplying hundreds or thousands of people with fake jerseys or the entire compilation of music produced by Rock-A-Fella records, for example, then that’s a serious crime deserving of a serious punishment.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
That poor sound engineer
has been making substandard wages for decades because the industry underpays the talent (musicians and engineers) so that marketing and sales people can hand out free cocaine at parties.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
That's a different issue
and doesn’t, in my mind, rationalize pirated music.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
There's only one rationalization for piracy
it’s the only alternative to paying grossly inflated prices of which only a small part goes to the creator. By paying full price for music CDs and movie DVDs and book files, you’re encouraging the persistence of parasitical industries who are aggressively suppressing our culture. Why can’t we have internet radio? Why can’t you watch first run movies streamed over the Internet? Why do publishers in NYC get to dictate Amazon’s minimum price for ALL books, and not just the books that are published on dead trees as well as digitally?
I’m a writer. I don’t expect people to write for free, but until the publishing industry has been put to sleep, the choice is overpaying or not paying at all. Gee, what a tough choice!
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Or the TV advertising salesperson
who loses out on commission dollars because some people think it’s “no big deal” to stream broadcasts of NBA games over the internet in violation of licensing agreements.
(waitaminute . . . )
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
That's different
Watching Wolves games is a necessity, like bread or water. And League Pass is expensive.
The streams I watch
contain the TV advertising, and my house is not fitted with a Nielsen box so we don’t affect the ratings, so it has no effect on whether that guy gets a commission.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
If the NBA ever pulled its head out of its ass
they’d be making a fortune on ads running during those “illegal” streams. Does it make any sense to anyone that League Pass games roll over into a scoreboard during commercial breaks? If they ran the full stream the local stations could attract national advertising.
This is all about protecting franchise owners who own cable systems.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
As a musician.....
Its weak that people think stealing music is ok. Its no different than any other job you get paid for,would you like it if people stole from your paycheck(besides the government)? Probably not.
by bringthesun on Dec 30, 2010 2:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry, but would you mind telling us
which band you gig with and how much they get paid to play? There are very few musicians who lose revenue due to torrents, and they usually have ticket prices of well over $50.
And does getting played on the radio cost you money or make you money? Radio is OK but torrents are theft? I’ve got hundreds of old cassette tapes dubbed from the radio that would argue it’s the same thing.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Random
Watching the movie Legendary and it’s sooooo cheesy, but kinda cool with Cena.
Ailuridae - Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?
To be completely optimistic,
You could say the Wolves are doing the best thing to better the team for the future. That is, be competitive, but barely lose. The result is that they know they can hang with the Big Guys, but will also not harm their lottery position for this year’s draft =D. Best of both worlds see?
Lols just chill.
by Fli on Dec 30, 2010 12:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
4th Quarter Numbers
- The Nuggets scored 37 points in the quarter.
- They did so on 25 possessions, meaning they scored 1.48 points per possession.
- To put that 1.48 into context, the John Doe patented “let the other team dunk every time” defense results in allowing 2.0 points per possession. The highest points per possession by any NBA team ever is 1.156. So Denver was somewhere between the best offense of all time and playing 5 on 0.
- What should have been our comeback began at the 7:47 mark. We would score on 10 of our next 13 possessions, including 7 possessions in a row, for a total of 21 points and a 1.61 ORtg. A stretch like this would have been enough to turn our 7 point deficit into a lead had we been playing any kind of defense while it happened.
- Unfortunately, we were playing no kind of defense, only preventing Denver from scoring on 3 of their final 12 possessions, so that the closest our run ever got us was a 105 – 105 tie before Denver put the game away.
The Bottom Line: - It’s hard to mount even a modest comeback when you let your opponent score every single time.
- The team may have turned a corner with its late game offense no longer folding up in pressure situations, but its defense becomes so nonexistent against capable offensive teams that we’re no closer to winning these tight ones than we were a month ago.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Same problem in the Utah game
Where Utah did put up 40 in the 4th quarter.
In that game, you may remember, the Wovles did even one worse than the “Just let them dunk it every time” — they did the “Let them dunk it and then foul them,” with 5 “and 1s” in the 4th quarter alone. I wonder what their PPP was in that game.
It really is Defense, Defense Defense, and I think it’s both a system and a personnel problem, so I don’t look for it to get any better this year. (So I guess I’m in the red pill camp.)
Other thoughts
- I’m a numbers guy, but even I couldn’t tell you the odds that there would be three NBA players as bad as Milicic, Pekovic, and Koufos, and they all play the same position, and they all play on the same team! Darko has the injury excuse, and I still have hope that Pekovic can improve greatly simply by not rushing when he has opportunities to make plays, but all three guys were terrible tonight. Rambis, of course, did the classic bad coach tactic of yanking them whenever any screwed up, which ensured that none of them could ever get comfortable and find a rhythm.
- Jonny Flynn is terrible, like out-of-the-league terrible. I’d trade him for Anthony Randolph, and I have serious concerns over whether Randolph will ever turn into anything useful either. Flynn is literally incapable of doing anything positive on either end of the floor. He can’t or won’t drive, which had been the only thing he did well last year. For an NBA point guard to walk the ball up the court, pass the ball to a wing, and run to the corner while his SG or SF plays de facto point guard the rest of the possession is unacceptable, but for Flynn, it’s his best play.
- Beasley has looked great the last couple nights. Really great. His scoring no longer reliant on hot shooting, he’s passing, and he’s not turning the ball over. If he sustains this (and unlike his early season heroics, here he actually can) he’ll be a legitimate go-to scorer and a star.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I mostly agree on Flynn...
but he deserves a chance on a team with a different offensive system. This triangle-type offense may not give point guards the best driving lanes and dribble penetration is one of Flynn’s primary (only?) strengths.
I hate him on this team, but I’m not going to write him off as “out-of-the-league terrible,” quite yet. Even if it’s like Foye (who was a much-better Wolf than Flynn, granted) where he ends up as a journeyman on the benches of bad teams, I think Jonny will have a long career and make plenty of money.
I should probably clarify.
I think this Jonny Flynn, the “probably still not 100%, playing in a bad system” Jonny Flynn is a player worse than 10 day contract guys like Sundiata Gaines. I think he’ll improve over the course of the season, and resume making at least some contributions. But right now, I do think “out-of-the-league terrible” is a fair characterization of his production.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I think Pek has shown a ton of improvement defensively since the beginning of the season. He’s actually been getting some blocks instead of just fouling (Even though I like when he fouls really hard). But I’ll agree that he had a bunch of stupid travels and turnovers that ended up hurting us in a close game.
Pek needs to learn judo
the other guys are shoving him as hard as they can, then letting go when he gets the ball, resulting in travels
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
I'm a huge Pek supporter
You can see the skills are there. He just keeps blowing it whenever he’s about to do something good. I think he’ll get there, but it would be nice if he were “there” already since Darko’s got his whole whatever going on.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
ItThat's pretty funny
that after the Hornets game, I was praising Flynn for because he got the ball up the court, passed it to a wing, and then went to a corner. Now you’re putting him out of the league for it. Not that you’re wrong, that’s just how low my expectations are for Flynn these days — staying out of the way is progress.
But I do wonder whether this is a sign that he’s taking some coaching. He’s not pounding the ball so much, so that’s progress. Now he just needs to figure out when he should be keeping the ball and trying to make a play, what he should do when he doesn’t have the ball, and how to defend. Piece of cake. Oddly enough, I still root for the guy. I always find myself watching him when he’s on the court.
Your points are fair about Flynn, but...
You could apply what you said to Darko after 10 games this year. And they’d be fair points. But Rambis stuck with him and he turned the corner.
The most basic problem Flynn has now is he has no confidence whatsoever. Pretty much everything he’s doing can be traced back to that. Thinking too much, not trying to screw up, not flowing, not attacking.
He’s way, way better than he’s showing. Our only choice is to ride it out and hope he turns the corner. It’s not like we’re going to the playoffs.
I agree that confidence, or maybe getting his legs back, are the biggest problems with him right now
The way Flynn’s playing this year compared to last year, I can’t see another explanation. I think you’re right he needs time and we should probably put down the pitchforks for a bit, like with Darko.
But I’m gonna keep the pitchfork close. I think he’d even say this is pitiful, and possibly the worst stretch of basketball he’s ever played.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Two questions:
1) Why do you think he’s “way, way better” than he’s showing? He plays point guard the same we he did for much of last year—mostly with a scorer’s mentality and without good defense, passing or decision making.
2) Why is keeping Flynn our only choice? We have two other point guards on the roster who can play better than Flynn—neither is too old, and we own Rubio’s rights. Flynn should be one of the more expendable players on the team.
We've seen Bassy's ceiling
He’s made progress, but he still can’t shoot or finish. And I’m a fan of his.
Flynn obviously has the athleticism to be a decent enough defender. It’s not like he has poor lateral quickness. And pretty much any defensive criticism you give to him you can give to Ridnour, who blows my mind how often he gets out of position (leaving CP3 to double team comes to mind several times).
Flynn has a good shot (much better than when he came into the league), passes the ball well (technically speaking), and can drive. But one sign of him being himself is being a vocal leader on the floor. He doesn’t do that now. It’s kind of like Beasley… you know when he’s confident. When he isn’t, he looks like a totally different person.
Keeping Flynn isn’t our only choice but you don’t want to sell low either. What would we have gotten for Darko after 10 games. Now we could probably legitimately trade the guy.
but isn't bassy's ceiling
higher than where Flynn and Rdnour are?
Not that he can play with his injury, but I like the team more when he’s playing
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Both flynn and Luke are gone
Luke might be going to the knicks for Anthony Randolph
I agree that he shoots well.
In my opinion, that’s his best skill. His dribble penetration would be more useful if he didn’t have to do 10 seconds of streetball-dribbling before finally challenging all 5 defenders waiting for his next move.
His shot was the question mark about him when he came into the league
So he’s made some progress.
I’d love to see him take it to the hole a couple time early when he gets in. He needs his swagger. A timid Jonny is a bad Jonny.
Wolves are a team that can't afford to take another team lightly.
Their immaturity showed, If you think a team is beatable, you have to BEAT them -
into submission. They got there for awhile, There was a point early on where they
had Denver hanging their heads – when we were 12 up and answering every run -
but then, I noticed a lack of focus that seemed like it started lulling our players
to sleep – then they brought on the Flynn/Brewer, et al combo, and everything
started to go South, and Denver’s zombies started to come to life again,
We need Bassy to anchor the second unit. Flynn isn’t going to improve; he’s
killing us – and so is Brewer. The bad thing about them is that what they do
is contagious – the out-of-control mode. When everybody els starts doing it,
the Wolves implode – turnovers, wild shots, cluelessness.
Kurt’s going to have to stay with 9 guys.That certainly doesn’t include Jonny
Flynn. Can Sundiata Gaines be worse? I don’t think so. He may be rusty, but
he showed signs early on that he can run the team reasonably well and make
some fine passes. The Flynn unit turned the whole game sour.
I’m also suspect of Kevin Love’s numbers. Do they mean anything to the team?
most nights, probably “Yes”. Last night, I was wondering. It seemed he was
absent again until late – does what he does make an impact? Sometimes the
answer seems to be “No”. It’s hard to tell what it is that’s bugging me about him.
The lack of defense seems to be a given. In the 4th it looked OK. Why can’t he
defend earlier than that? and why does his shot get stuffed so much inside?
Unless he’s right under the basket, or beyond the arc, he seems ineffective.
His mid-range game sputters. He eats a lot of rubber in mid-range. I’d rather
have him than not have him. Some nights, he’s the only player that’ shows up.
He was very consistent most of the season, but the last three games he looks
distracted until the 4th quarter. Is he saving energy early? Four games ago,
he was letting it all hang out. Now it seems he’s conserving energy for crunch time.
Darko’s back-ups need seasoning. They show spurts of capability, but they are
not game-ready. Laimbeer needs to keep them working hard. One day, not soon,
I think Pekovic is going to dominate offensively under the boards. I’ve seen signs that
he is unstoppable near the glass. He even has a short face-up jumper to add to
his mix. Defensively, they have a few moments of OKness,, but mostly they are
beat when opponents want to go rim. Is Darko going to heal? M’gosh, this is
hurting the team with him going down every game. This was a game that really
highlighted our loss of Anthony Tolliver – he’s quick when teams go small on us.
He has springs, and he has length and he brings something we did not have
last night – defense. He can also knock down a few Js. I really missed what he brings.
Give us a better second unit – better – don’t substitute a whole unit. Just put in a
guy or two so you don’t blow the chemistry. If you bring in a whole new second
unit they are a collection of suck. Total suck. Trade Flynn (for a pack of bubblegum).
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Another thing I forgot to add - we are being beaten in transition by every team!
We look like so many stragglers watching the other team sprint down court -and for that -
there is no excuse. Look at all the run-outs. Unacceptable. Better rebounding could
help. Our rebounding hasn’t been saving us the last 4 games. Why? It seems we
haven’t been dominant in that category of late. The total numbers are closer now.
Are we that slow-footed transitioning? We were getting killed by Balkman, even though
the box only shows 10 points. The break-aways did us in. What will it be when we
play Stoudamire or LeBronson? Killing fields.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Plus, Wes kind of disappeared, didn't he? Last game he stretched the floor for us.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Very solid
observations from the game. The Flynn unit was beyond frustrating to watch.
Love had 20 points at half
so yeah, I’d say he was making an impact.
That was a daunting wall of text
But I’m glad I read it. A lot of good points in there.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Very frustrating game
A few things.
Defense really was atrocious. I think Tolliver would have helped significantly.
Billups was just on fire. The defense on him was poor as well, but not much you can do about someone jacking up 27 footers.
Hand checking is now allowed on the perimeter? Nuggets kept doing it, officials kept allowing it and Wolves didn’t catch on that maybe they might have been allowed the same. But, then again, maybe not, because Wolves were being mugged under the basket and on the other end of the court were being called for fouls.
I know some had problems with Rambis’s rotations, but if no one is playing defense you roll the dice to see whether you can find someone willing. I was OK with him seeing whether Flynn could finish out the game and pleased when he realized Ridnour needed to return.
Mainly, defense. They won’t beat anyone without playing man, without helping. It was just horrible. The only hope they had to win was to just outscore the Nuggets, and when they were down by even three or four with a few minutes left it was clear the Nuggs were happy to trade makes.
- I can't say enough about the improvement of Beasley -
a bright star highlighted against a team background of darkness.
We’ve seen that he’s bringing that best of all attributes – consistency.
Now we know that he can bring it almost every night.
I hope his almost childish sense of humor can keep the other guys from hanging their heads.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
How does Denver explain this game?
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16969263
and interesting tidbits:
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16968579
http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_16970056
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
by BaylorWest on Dec 30, 2010 7:58 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
They know that, for the most part, we are shaky at protecting the pumpkin.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Thanks. We should really do this every game.
Maybe fold it into the postgame thread, as stories come online.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
For some reason, this loss didn't bother me as much as some others...
On paper, this was a horrible loss—home game against a fringe playoff team’s second unit. But then again, and regardless of what you want to say about our defense, it’s not easy to beat Chauncey Billups when he’s playing like 2004 Chauncey.
Mostly, I liked to see Beasley racking up points like that. He’s hitting the kind of shots that can be taken against any team, any time. There aren’t many guys his age that can hit jumpshots off the dribble with any consistency. It’s one of the noticeable differences between college ball and the NBA.
Luke and Bassy should be our point guards—no sense is wasting time and frustrating everybody with Flynn. He should be traded, as soon as possible—maybe a different offensive system could get him on the right track. As bad as he looks here, he’s got some physical talents.
Flynn's status on the team
is an interesting window back to interpreting Kahn’s job security. Is Kahn worried about giving up too quickly on “his” pick, especially before Rubio is actually on the team? Or is Kahn desperate enough to improve that he will trade anybody, no matter how it reflects on Kahn’s ability as a POBO?
Conversely, Kahn could be secure enough to move (or keep!) Flynn without worrying about how it reflects back on him? Probably the best bet for Kahn and the team is to package Flynn and another pick/prospect for an established, overpaid starter—two apples for a nice orange, if you will.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
If Kahn can justify drafting Flynn, in that situation...
wouldn’t you think he could justify trading him? It’s actually the wise decision, so it shouldn’t be too difficult. Focus on the fact that he’s not the right fit for this system, needs a fresh opportunity and with Luke (Kahn will love to point out his recent signing) on board for 3 more seasons, there won’t be room once Ricky gets here.
I don’t think anybody is attached to Flynn at this point, and trading him would be an easy sell.
I'm thinking more beyond just Flynn in this instance--
and moreso on how it will look on on Kahn’s resume. More wins and revenue is an obvious plus sign for him (if and when it happens), but after that, he’s going to need a response when asked, “What tangible proof is there that you deseve a contract extension?”
Rubio coming over and performing as anticipated would be great for Kahn. Consistent minutes and performance from Darko would also help. Beasley, as well, but how much of the room needed to obtain Beasley at a bargain price can be attributed to Kahn?
I’m not sure who on the bench or in the front office will get the credit for Luke, Wes, and Webster, and Tolliver, all of whom are improvements over what was at the position prior to their arrivals, but none that can be described as wildly transformative.
Kahn will get plenty of credit (as he should) for his part in getting the team to 25 wins on a $46 million payroll, while some key reserve players were injured. But I’m guessing the expectations in the front office were higher than that going into the season.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Beasley...
is what Kahn has to hang his hat on. I don’t know what went into getting Beasley… were other teams interested? If not, Kahn deserves credit for being smarter than them. If yes, then why did we get him over others? I don’t know much about that process—but for one reason or another, Kahn got it done.
Flynn is a mark against Kahn, and Rubio will help determine how big of a blunder that draft really was.
How many other teams
were interested in a Beasley-for-nothing trade? I’d say most of them. But how many were in the unique situation required to complete the trade? And how much of that situation was created by Kahn?
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
a few teams
Cleavland Toronto nets Chicago, Knicks the clippers. These are all the teams that could have gotten Beasley for free
There's a good explanation for none of those teams making an offer for Beasley.
Cleveland and Toronto didn’t want Beasley. If they did they would have picked him up in the sign-and-trades for LeBron James or Chris Bosh, respectively.
Chicago wasn’t interested in Beasley because they were under the impression that they are a win now kind of team and don’t have the time to put into developing an under-performing headcase (the consensus view of Beasley at the time).
The Knicks felt like they had the inside track to get Carmelo Anthony when he becomes a free agent next summer so they didn’t want to blow some of their upcoming cap space on a guy that has the potential to become every bit as good as Anthony but with no guarantees that he will ever fulfill that potential.
Beasley would look pretty stellar next to Blake Griffin in LA. He’d look about as good there as he looks here actually. However, they already have their perimeter threat in Eric Gordon, so Beasley is somewhat redundant. Additionally, if you recall, Beasley was seen as a player that was far better suited to play the 4 at the time the trade occurred (that’s why all of the postings on this board were questioning whether he was going to get enough minutes behind Love to develop or if Love would be pushed to the bench again). There was no guarantee that he was going to work out as a 3, so it’s understandable that the Clippers decided to pass on acquiring him because they’re pretty much set at the 4 for the next decade with Griffin.
As for the Nets, they had just drafted Derrick Favors and traded for Troy Murphy so adding Beasley to that mix as yet another 4 to find minutes for probably didn’t seem so appealing. It is entirely possible that Kahn and/or Rambis were the only ones that envisioned Beasley as a go-to scorer at the 3. If the Nets didn’t see that possibility, and let’s remember that they were a team in a little bit of transition with the new owner coming in and the accompanying house cleaning, then it makes perfect sense for them to never even consider adding Beasley to their young team.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
by ynotsema2 on Dec 30, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So, if Bease was seen as a 4 before this season
Then shouldn’t Kahn get some credit for bringing him on and having faith that he could fit here as a 3 when no one else saw it?
It’s easy to pile it on the guy, but at some point it just looks like deliberate attempts to avoid giving him his due. He’s definitely made his mistakes (Flynn.. ugh), but he’s had some decent moves as well, Beasley chief amongst them, and also the Rubio trade. Those are big, franchise-changing type moves, so I think he deserves some credit for them.
The true measure of a GM, though, is how he recovers from bad moves. If he can cut bait on Flynn and move past him without pulling a McHale and holding desperately to him out of sentimental attachment, I’ll be impressed.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I feel like I'm first in line to give Kahn credit where credit is due.
I’m not going to praise him if I don’t think he deserves it, but I’m not going to attribute all of the things he’s done that have worked out well to blind luck either. He’s done plenty of things well. And I don’t think my explanations above take anything away from the Beasley acquisition being a good move by Kahn. After all, he could have looked at our roster and decided that we didn’t need another power forward, but instead he saw a scorer that could play small forward for this team.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Once THE plane lands
in the TC from Barcelona carrying a certain someone, Kahn will begin to seriously take calls from other GM’s about Flynn’s availability.
I suspect flynn is like every other Wolf we've got
Is there anyone — ANYONE? — on this team that a CH commenter hasn’t tried to trade this year in the comments?
Can’t we have a ten-game rule for returning players before the commentariat tries to ship them to New Jersey?
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
+1
We need to give Jonny a little time and support the dude. It’s what always pisses me off about fans… Who knows how Flynn would respond if next time he came off the bench the fans gave him a big ovation and rallied behind him. You think he doesn’t know that we all think “he’s a bust”?
We need him. And I’m a homer. So I say f%ck Lawson, Curry, Jennings, etc. The draft is over and Flynn is a Wolf. I think he has the talent to school those guys. But he needs to get his swagger back. And be a vocal leader on the floor.
It’s time Beasley returned the favor and told Flynn that he needs to be the Jonny Flynn he was a Syracuse.
Very optimistic...
and refreshing…I like it and agree
by LosAngelesTWolf on Dec 30, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see why
It isn’t like last year didn’t happen. he was lousy then, and he’s pretty much the exact same kind of lousy now.
It isn’t inevitable that he can’t get better, but on the other hand, if someone wants to give the Wolves something useful for him, I don’t see why we shouldn’t be interested in that. In the meantime, he isn’t helping.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 30, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
He might be the worst guard on the team...
which is not something that every CH commenter has been saying about every player on the roster.
Trading Flynn is different than trading Kevin Love or Wes Johnson… it’s about removing a problem—not pouncing on potential trade opportunities.
It may be a case of
removing a problem, and pouncing on potential trade opportunities. The apparent 7 teams interested in Flynn is a big part of it right now.
The people who watch
from AFAR will be critical. I’m sure Bill Simmons might make a snide remark. The media might giggle. Sadly- it just doesn’t seem to be working in Minny. Imagine- how much better this team would be with either: Stephen Curry, Ty Lawson, Darren Collison, or Brandon Jennings than Flynn. I wouldn’t be opposed to a Jonny for Randolph swap.
I don't like Flynn's PG guard play, but I would like to experiment with him.
Dr. Frankenstein would like to try to bring him in as an off the ball guard, Luke handling
Point. Just try it a few plays here and there. We know he has a pretty good shot – we know
he can drive. We also know he’s short – but I’d still like to try it. We complain because we
only have one guy that can creat his own shot. Well, Jonny can creat his own shot. The
only thing mitigating against this is his lack of height. can he guard a 2? He might get
away with it, since most of them are taking long ’j’s. If they drive, I think he can turn them
toward height. I still would like to at least try it. he’s a cannon ball with a pretty good handle
that can go rim if he finds a seam.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
After all, Ellington's not doing much - Wes has his days, off & on.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
That's a good idea
but it will probably be the role he plays on his next team. They drafted him 18 months ago as a point guard (and passed on Curry out of concern for Curry’s ability to play the 1), so they’re either going to make Flynn a point guard, or die trying.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
It's always seemed like that's Flynn's destiny: off the bench instant offense combo-guard, Jason Terry (with a worse shot)
If he can stay in the league that is.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
I hate everyones PG play here
How did Billups and Ty Lawson do? I know some of their time was at SG, but every minute at PG was a productive minute.
More than offensive, I’m eager for Rubio because of defense. I would even love getting mayo for his D. At this point, I don’t see how offensive deficiencies could hurt us as much as Flynn/Ridnour are hurting us on D. To me, it seems like Bassy is our best PG.
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
That is why I want Mayo on this team. If he can play D against some PG’s that Rubio cant this would be perfect.
... and its easy to say
that he can play D against people Ridnour can’t
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
The team that trades for Mayo should be thinking "Hersey Hawkins."
That seems like OJ’s role.
Comparison of their first three seasons.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'd be fine with Hersey Hawkins, dead-eye
But I can only remember the Sonics version, and he didn’t really guard the point too much with Payton there.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
(Yeah, more a Philly thing when it did happen.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Beasley and Webster both appear to be able to create their own shots at this point.
Just saying.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Did you notice the change in Wes Johnson's game?
Instead of “catch shoot” he was doing a one-dribble jab step. Something the coaches are working on? Better to leave it on the practice floor? OK, I know you need to incorporate, but he did several with mixed results.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Yeah I did notice Wes trying new things
It’s most likely Wes riding his emotions from his career night on monday, but it’s good he’s getting the confidence to want to do more than shoot threes for this team. One thing that just killed me was when he had his guy beat on the baseline, and should have threw down a monster dunk, but decided to dribble it out instead! Hopefully he’ll get it sooner than later. I hope next year he doesn’t get the Timberwolves sophmore injury curse…
I was happy he took some shots down the stretch
He missed. But that’s a big step for him. He won’t miss those for long.
He was working on that in one of their early training camp videos.
(Beasley, participating in the same drill seemingly, was fooling around instead, trying funky layups.)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
It was an unbelieveablely frustrating game to watch
from the stands.
Wes could not defend either Billups or JR – yet Rambis choose to keep playing him. He either got beat off the dribble (leading to dunks) or turned his head leading to a wide open 3. Rambis tried to hide him by moving him around. No luck. Wes needs to start improving on defense – fast.
Webster let the Nuggets back into the game and helped them build with his mistaken “hot hand” mentality at the end of the 3rd / early 4th. The couple shots he made were lucky – he mistakenly believed he was “hot” forcing shots (the running in the lane LEFT HANDER that almost killed Love off the rim was especially precious). The stupid foul. The turnovers. When Wes got up around the 8 minute mark, my row cheered figuring Rambis had seen enough. Nope. Wes for Corey. UGH.
But my biggest frustration came this AM. From the Tribune game report:
“I know you guys are sick of hearing it and on some level I’m sick of saying it,” he told reporters afterward. "There’s just no way, there’s no way without having veteran players, veteran leadership you’re going to take 10 new guys and get them to work together with the type of unity and chemistry needed in this limited time. It takes months. It takes years …
Bull$hit. Last week it was no closer. This week no veterans. 2 weeks ago, Rambis was quoted as saying last year was a “throw away”. (Does that mean I can get my money back? Or should I just sue for fraud believing I was buying tickets for a team who was being promoted as trying to compete?)
The fact is coach, this young team is needs leadership from the BENCH in the form of an engaged coach who is able to correct glaringly obvious problems. Wes should be less lost on defense today, than he was in October. That is not the case. Out of control players should be sitting on the bench – like Webster last night – not being given free run. I could go on and on.
So a word of advice coach – stop the whining in the press about the land you have been dealt – and start developing these players both individually and as a team. Earn your reputation as a strong defensive coach. Make it your New Year’s Resolution – Please!!
by Just A Fan on Dec 30, 2010 10:22 AM CST reply actions 13 recs
Recommended
once again. I believe revenue is priority #1 for this team right now, and since I’m guessing you spend more money on this team than 99% of the rest of the fans, I especially appreciate you sharing your thoughts and frustrations here.
I think after the first of the year there will be a new veteran added to the team, the mind games and experiments will be reduced, and the rotations will be shortened as Rambis goes in to all-out win mode for the 2nd half of the season. It won’t be enough to get to 30 wins, but it will be a good test of his ability to win games.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
also recommended
But with one caveat:
Yes, you should get your money back for last year
by midlife crisis on Dec 30, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
This sounds more like the Randy Wittman approach...
Make a mistake? Sit on the bench and think about it.
I don’t disagree with your main point about Rambis and the need for these guys to improve… but yanking guys during the games is frustrating to watch. That’s what Rambis did at the end of the Spurs game where Beasley looked out of it. Rather than win that game with Beasley on the floor, we lost it with Ridnour as the designated go-to scorer.
In no way
am I advocating what Rambis did earlier in the year with Love. Or what he did to Beasley when the he took him out never to return in the Spurs game (or at least until there was less than a minute left)
But the running left hander was Webster’s 4th or 5th bone headed play in a 4-5 min stretch. I think a few minutes on the bench would do everyone one some good. (I certainly would have no beef if Rambis put him back in after a couple minutes on the bench)
Witt was a better coach
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Welcome back!!
and welcome to the role of skunk at the garden party! lol
Hope all is well for you and yours.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Any idea how Glen and Wright are viewing the losses this year?
Bad coaching? Bad players selected by Kahn? Bad players requested by Rambis? Just need more time?
I agree that while Rambis should be confident he should take a little responsibility once in a while. Other coaches do not often preach that it will take years and years before they can put a competitive team on the floor because their roster is inadequate and it takes that long to learn their systems.
Flip, for all his foibles, talked about how he learned in the D League to take a new guy and get him into the game/gameplan the same day.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 30, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Completely agree
Has he ever taken blame for any part of a bad loss? I just wonder what it does to the psyche of the team to always hear that they messed up or are not good/experienced enough to pull out victories?
For example, after the Vikes/Eagles game, Andy Reid took all the blame for that loss even though he could’ve blamed any number of things like Vick’s injury or the 2 days of stagnation. I feel like Rambis needs to occasionally do this and take some pressure off of the players when they know that they didn’t perform.
As shaky as Andy Reid's job security usually is
the man’s got a bunch of NFC championship appearances under his ever-expanding belt. He can afford to be magnanimous. Rambis isn’t as secure and has no track record, so he’s more likely to place blame on the players (and ergo ipso facto Kahn). A bigger man would follow your recommendations, but . . .
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
I see your point, PD
But if Rambis was a bit more willing to accept some culpability in a few games, don’t you think that a gesture like that would go far in the locker room?? I played for a few coaches (and worked for a few bosses) who loved to throw people under the bus when things went bad – didn’t take long to see everybody’s effort and enthusiasm disappear.
I have no idea what we're yelling about!
No, I agree with you.
At every coaching conundrum, Rambis should call Brad Childress up and ask, “What would you do in this situation?”, and then do the opposite.
One of those opposite actions would be to take the blame even when it’s obviously on the shoulders of the players.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Rambis
I agree with you guys—he doesn’t really take on blame, publicly, at least. But, he also didn’t seem to take the credit when we whooped up on New Orleans the other night. He was gushing praise for the players after that game… rather than making it sound like they are finally “getting it” or something where he’s been right all along, but they are the ones who finally did well.
lol!
Sorry, didn’t mean to make it sound like I was lecturing you!
Classic idea on the whole “WWBCD?” I mean, there’s a future on the motivational speaking circuit using just that premise – you may have given Chilly a Lazarus-like return from professional limbo!
I have no idea what we're yelling about!
Rec'd
To me, it sounds like Rambis is pointing the finger squarely at Kahn for the early season struggles.
The steadying veteran hands Rambis seems to have had a hand in adding to this roster:
Martell Webster?
Sasha P. last season.
Is he playing Corey right now, when he does, with this idea in mind?
I wonder if he’d be sending a Theo Ratliff out there right now for big minutes, if there was one on the bench. Why didn’t he lobby to keep the various Evan Turners Kahn’s dealt away?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Rambis definitely believes in the hot hand
It is just one of his many “Ouija Board” tendencies.
Crazy Talk II
Once again with feeling, coaches don’t foul or commit turnovers. Coaches don’t play defense. It is up to the players to apply what they get from the coaches.
Yes, it is a very young team. Most people learn by doing, learn best from mistakes. That is a fact of life.
FWIW, Chauncey Billups said pretty much what you quote Kurt Rambis as saying:
“I’ve been doing this a long time,” Billups said. “They’ve got some really good players over there, but they are young, they are inexperienced and a lot of things that I saw out there, I was able to take advantage of. That’s just experience.”
Experience = learning from mistakes
So, get off your high horse. You’re not the only person who gets frustrated hoping the team improves. The rant is ridiculous and IMO uninformed.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
So
Once again with feeling, coaches don’t foul or commit turnovers. Coaches don’t play defense. It is up to the players to apply what they get from the coaches.
If, after 30 games, the same poor rotations on defense are made over and over, is that all on the players? Or does the coach have any responsibility.
I will get off my high horse now and stop posting so as not to offend.
There's is usually more than one side to every story
I suspect you haven’t coached at the NBA level nor have I. So, we should be a bit more circumspect when evaluating every situation.
So you don’t like the rotations. There are some things we control, there are some things we don’t control, and there is hope that we can distinguish between the two.
Personally, as I commented to Jonah at Timberwolves.com last night, I would have preferred that Corey Brewer would have been put on Billups in the second quarter, but I don’t control that. I would have preferred too that we performed better on pick-and-rolls which killed us again last night.
But the coach can tell and demonstrate and have his team rehearse how to effectively defend the pick-and-roll, but he can’t be on the floor doing it during games. However, one hopes that when a player is embarrassed enough times in front of his home crowd that the player (like Billups has experienced) suddenly has the light goes on. It’s just the way players learn today.
It doesn’t offend me that you write what you write, just as it shouldn’t offend you that I take issue with the myopic fault-finding at the coach.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Can this get rec'd, too?
Billups, Flagrant and others are 100% correct. I could do without the shot in the last paragraph of Flagrant’s post but some passionate Wolves fans need to take what Billups says to heart. He’s right and so is Rambis.
by SufferingBruin on Dec 30, 2010 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
I guess I'm just naive
but when you have zero chance at making the playoffs, I would think the coach would assign minutes for development purposes more than anything else, and nothing helps a player develop like the chance to make mistakes and learn from them.
It sucks not winning more often, but I think seeing Love and Beasley and other players improve from week to week justifies a lot. Would Kevin love be this good if he had averaged 35 minutes a game last season? I don’t think so, but yeah, we might have won 20 games if he had. Which would you rather have? Twenty wins last season, or Kevin Love’s 31-31 game this season?
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
Didn't mean to go in two directions at the same time
Rambis motivated Love by limiting his minutes last year, but most players need more court time to get better. Love is in all things a fairly unique guy, and I think much of his improvement came from working with Rambis, Lambeer and Coach K.
Wes, otoh, needs more minutes to improve. Sitting him on the bench isn’t going to motivate him like it did KLove. Beasley? Who knows, but Jonny Flynn’s speech to him seemed to have had a major impact, so why not credit Flynn for that leadership until he’s got his legs back under him?
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
That's a really strange argument
You are essentially arguing from faith that Rambis is acting correctly in developing players using various different tactics without a whole lot of evidence that any of it is true.
Simple quetion: Did gifting Corey all of those minutes last season spur his development process? Is it conceivable that if he had to earn his playing time he would actually be worse now? What about Flynn?
And if Corey needed those minutes why him over Ellington who was younger? Why Flynn over Sessions? Why Darko over Pekovic? Why is Wesley guaranteed minutes this year when he is essentially playing at the same level Wayne did last year? Where are hayward’s developmental minutes? Why isn’t Gaines being given minutes?
It is pretty obvious to me that Kurt just ‘believes" some stuff about basketball. Some has some reasoning, some doesn’t. He’s a really, really superstitious guy.
FWIW, Love’s development arc doesn’t indicate particularly deft handling of him. That is unless you think that the coaching staff is responsible for his improved stroke.
Just curious:
why do you say that Rambis is “really, really superstitious”. Has he made direct statements, or are you inferring it from his behavior? If that’s true, I’d definitely think a little less of him.
Ockham's Razor?
When someone consistently makes choices ignoring the evidence in front of them in favor of a deeply held but unsubstantiated precepts how else would you describe it?
What is "the evidence?"
Rambis and his staff probably collect much of their own, wouldn’t you think?
I see very little reason to suggest that Kurt's method of talent evaluation
is anything more than assessing if a player “looks like a basketball player” and if so, giving them minutes.
I'm betting Kurt Rambis
Knows a little more about basketball than you. But maybe I’m wrong.
I’m not claiming he’s a great coach or anything, I don’t know.
by Dumbhead62 on Dec 30, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Let's see...
…a former NBA player and a guy who worked under Phil Jackson, only considered one of the best coaches of all-time (if not the best), or someone who posts on a message board. I’d be willing to bet that no one here – including myself – knows as much about basketball than Kurt Rambis. (Unless, of course, there are former NBA/college-level players who post here that we don’t know about).
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I'm God Shammgod.
Yeah. That’s right.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Dec 30, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
Wow, isn't it like 5 in the morning where you are?
I’m impressed that you’re awake and talking on a Wolves’ blog instead of sleeping. Impressive.
(Shammgod currently plays with Marbury in the Chinese Basketball Association)
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
"Appeal to Authority"
is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative.
Kurt Rambis likes to let the other team shoot threes, on the theory that they can’t always be hot from that range. The idea is debatable, even by lowly mortals on message boards, despite Kurt’s pedigree.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I wasn't suggesting that Rambis is always right.
Even people with superior knowledge can make wrong choices based on, or in spite of, that knowledge. But I still believe that Rambis knows more about basketball than the posters on this site.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Sure. In the case we're talking about, though,
I’m not sure talent evaluation is particularly a huge strong suit of NBA insiders like Rambis. He’s never actually had a personnel position proper, either, has he?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Yes he has
Rambis served as the Lakers’ assistant general manager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Rambis
Interesting, thanks Chuck.
Wikipedia doesn’t specify any decisions specifically attributable to Rambis’s influence, like Kahn’s draft-day trade for Tinsley. I wonder if anyone’s asked him about that.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Honestly,
I’m not at all convinced yet that Rambis is a good head coach. The only thing I was addressing is whether he makes decisions based on “superstition” because he doesn’t use the same process that some here think he should.
And I’m not saying it’s not worth debating whether he makes the right decisions, it just seems to be going overboard to say that a guy who’s been in the league this long and studied under one of the greatest is arriving at his coaching decisions by very shallow means and superstition.
yes, but
I guarantee that pretty much everything you believe about science is as a result of an appeal to authority. You have not run the experiments that suggest the existence of the neutron, etc.
In practice, outside of logic class, appeal to authority is very useful. But it does have its problems.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
Hey look!
An appeal to authority!
A lot of us pointed out at the time how disastrous the Foye-Roy trade and the Brewer pick were at the time and we’re greeted with something to the affect of
“I’m betting Kevin McHale knows a little more about basketball than you”
How’d that work out for you?
Well, it looks like McHale has kind of been validated
on the whole Foye-Roy thing. And he’s been validated precisely because of his knowledge about Roy’s injuries – and maybe because he had injury problems himself – had a better insight into what those injuries might mean for Roy’s career.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Validated how?
Drafting Roy would not mean having to extend him. You know, the same way that the Wovles elected not to extend Foye. Drafting Roy only meant having to pay him his rookie deal where he was amongst the most valuable players in the NBA.
Also, for me it was a whole lot less about Roy than about the fact that Foye, like Brewer a year later wasn’t a lottery pick. McHale was pretty sure he saw something that college production didn’t show in either of them. Khanbis was pretty sure of the same for Johnson and Kahn before that with Flynn. Looks the part sure seems to be an awfully poor way to judge talent
"Kind of validated" sounds about right
Yes, he was right that Roy had knee problems that would matter. But I’d take 3 to 4 good years from Roy (knee problems and all) over 3 mediocre years from Foye. I just don’t want the historical record to go too far in the other direction on this one. McHale still blew it on Foye.
Well, I think Rudy Gay was the right pick
in the situation and would’ve made Roy/Foye irrelevant. And I’m not trying to absolve McHale of all blame for that. But one of the big points – that McHale avoided Roy due to his knees – was at least partially correct.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
We might have a title or 2 if we'd have had Roy and KG the past 4 years.
And at worst, we would’ve had a lot more fun watching the Wolves.
C'mon, Randy Foye is healthy right now!
This many years later, our player’s a functional backup…. Sort of. For someone else. I guess.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Even if that's true
is it superstitious or just ignorant? Your definition of superstitious, while technically correct, does raise some questions regarding what constitutes “evidence” (as Andy brought up).
Now if Zgoda quoted Rambis as saying “I told you we’d beat the Hornets. My lucky shirt always works!”, THAT would be superstitious by most people’s use of the word.
I actually don’t have much use for semantic arguments, so let’s please not take this too far — I just thought it would have been kind of interesting if Rambis was a rabbit’s-foot kind of guy. That doesn’t seem to be what you mean, though.
I actually suspect that Rambis is also superstitious in that sense
but no that’s not what I mean.
I like superstitions.
Personally I always, always pick up a penny when I see it, and make an especial point when it’s in some grimy, awful spot – in the slush by a curb, or an ashtray. I’ll sometimes describe this as being “for luck,” but it’s actually more of a ritual reminder about watching out for ‘little things,’ not overlooking humble stuff, and that sort of thing.
Routines can help structure things in your mind. I can see how that would be helpful for someone like a pro athlete.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I don't always agree with his rotations...
but with Love and Beasley leading the team in minutes, I can’t say he’s doing anything too egregious. Ridnour gets quite a few more minutes than Flynn at this point, which is possibly against management’s wishes but seems to be a wise basketball decision. Brewer’s minutes have dropped recently, with Webster’s return. Darko seems to play when we need his size, and not when we don’t.
by Andy G on Dec 30, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I couldn't begin to answer you
because I have no idea what Rambis is up to exactly, I just know that if he’s not focused exclusively on winning in a non-playoff year, his criteria for playing time probably would not make any sense to anyone who isn’t sitting in on the coaches’ meetings.
Getting better isn't the same thing as winning, sadly.
I think when people talk about the hot hand not being true
they’re confusing what a hot hand really is.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Is it when you light your hand on fire?
Because I know that every time I do that, my hand gets pretty hot.
I guess what I mean is that
I believe that some players get in a rhythm, if you will, and that you should keep feeding those players for quality shots when they are in that rhythm. For instance, against New Orleans, Wes Johnson was in a groove and more shots for him would be logical.
But…what Martell did last night was not an argument against the hot hand. Martell, after hitting a few tough shots, started to take some even tougher shots. That’s not a hot hand. That’s foolishness. And there’s a big difference.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I actually agree with you
I was just foolin’. I think the statistics that say the hot hand is a myth are pretty easily explained by deducing that players with the “hot hand” tend to launch more difficult shots. Can I prove this? No. But I think the statistical evidence that says the hot hand doesn’t exist is incomplete.
Easy to explain....Not Beasley...
You can’t compare Ridnour to Nash unless you are willing to run a Phoenix style offense. Ridnour is vital to everything from beginning to end. Rambis minimizes Luke’s impact by constantly trying to turn Beasley into Kobe….he ain’t there yet!
Flynn's status
I know this has been addressed, but I want to say it once more: Jonny Flynn had a bad hip and then surgery that kept him from playing basketball for eight months. He’s jumping in against players that not only have been hooping all that time but are also in a groove wrt their team. He mostly looks awful, that is true, but he looks so much worse than last year that it should be obvious he’s way behind.
If we knew for sure that he truly sucks, and the hip has had no effect on his game, then he’d be playing at the same level as last year. Instead he’s playing much worse, and that tells me that the hip/surgery/layoff is having a tremendous effect on his play.
Given that this last statement is true, then who are you to be assessing exactly how much of his bad play is due to hip/surgery/layoff and how much is due to his general suckiness? And if you believe the hip/surgery/layoff has had an effect, why not allow him to play his way through?
You can't dust for vomit.
Beasley
A week or two ago, I made the statement that Beasley was giving up more points (in various ways) than he was scoring, and I saw him as a problem with the team. He’s better now…never mind.
I agree with the others who say: Beasley is playing his best basketball of the season right now. And it looks sustainable.
You can't dust for vomit.
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