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New look Wizards beat old look Wolves (a tribute to El Janitor)

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There it is folks.  And so goes yet another chapter in Wolves history.  I thought it passed with Mark Madsen but today's trade with the Knicks marks the true end to the...well, read for yourself:

Madsen, while being a fine citizen, was involved in one of the darkest moments of recent NBA history: He was the key actor in the greatest example of tanking in league history.  In the last game of the 05/06 season, Madsen jacked up 7 three pointers, missing them all.  The game was remarkable on two fronts.  First, the Wolves were in the midst of a grand tank-a-thon, sitting out KG for multiple games and fielding a starting lineup of Eddie Griffin (RIP), Justin Reed, Rashad McCants, Marcus Banks and Marc Blount against the Griz in a last-ditch attempt to keep the top-10 protected pick owed to the Clippers in the Marko Jaric trade.  Second, the Griz were trying to lose a game in an attempt to avoid playing the 60-22 Dallas Mavs in the first round of the playoffs.  In an overtime game, the Griz did not play a single one of their starters over 25 minutes while sitting Pau Gasol.  Madsen ended the game shooting 1-15 from the floor with the aforementioned 7 three pointers.  His 15 shots were a career high.  Memphis also sat out Eddie Jones while the Wolves gave Ricky Davis the night off.  The Wolves lost the game and were guaranteed their first round draft choice. 

...

Actually, Madsen's departure hasn't completely ended the Roy/Foye era.  Memphis' leading scorer on that pathetic night was Brian Cardinal, who jacked up 18 points against the lowly Wolves.

Had Brian Cardinal been the one jacking up three pointers for Our Beloved Puppies, there is no doubt in my mind that the Wolves would have won the game.  Cardinal finished that travesty of a game by going 4-7 from beyond the arc compared to 0-7 for Madsen.  Cardinal played to win while Madsen played to clown.  While this particular game will be hard to top as my least favorite Wolves memory of all time (I was able to make my way down from the upper bowl to 2-3 rows back by the time Madsen really got going), it will always stand tribute to the fact that no matter where Brian Cardinal is inserted into a basketball game, he will give paying customers the effort they deserve...even in a mockery of a contest.

This is as mushy as it's going to get for a guy who makes $82,000/game by sitting at the end of the bench.  I really hope that Cardinal can return to the team in some sort of assistant coaching role.  I think the guy has the makings of a solid coach and from all I've heard he's been fantastic behind the scenes for this franchise. 

As for last night's tilt...

Star-divide

...it was notable for a few reasons:

  • A night after letting the likes of Kwame Brown, Chris Wilcox, Jason Maxiell, and Jonas Jerebko go off for 30-38 inside of 10 feet (yes, this really happened), the Wolves allowed the Antawn Jamison, Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood-less Wizards to go for 22-37 from within 10 feet.  That's the Wolves' defense allowing 79% and 59% from up-close in the last two games.  That's Al Jefferson looking as bad as we've ever seen him on defense.  He came back from the All Star break with a bum knee.  Here's hoping that the knee isn't serious and that he gets back to showing some improvement on defense because these last two games can be laid at the feet of awful interior defense more than anything else...and we're looking at you Mr. Jefferson and Mr. Hollins.  That being said, and knee or no knee, there were several points during last night's game where Jefferson absolutely did not look like he was trying.  My best guess is that this is what contributed to his early yank in his final 4th quarter stint.  It was ugly effort...on both ends of the court.  Not the type of stuff you ever want to see from your "best" player. 
  • Last night was yet another contest where Jonny Flynn sat out the entire 4th quarter.  In his place Ramon Sessions gave an all-out effort; diving for balls with very little time on the clock, running plays with the team down by a ton, slashing hard to the rim when there was obviously nothing to play for, and so on and so forth.  Getting back to the effort thing (which Kurt Rambis specifically cited in his post-game critique of the team), there is no reason on god's green earth why this team should lack effort and hustle.  None.  Especially on a night where they're going up against a depleted Wizards team who sent away its 3 best players in the past 48 hours.  For the Wolves to not give their full effort for 48 minutes is embarrassing and discouraging to its fan base.  I texted Wyn right before the game started and said that this was a 100% have-to-win sort of game because of the roster movement and unfamiliarity of the new Wizards.  All that was needed to bring it on home was superior effort and that was completely lacking during last night's game.  It was really hard to watch at times. 
  • Aside from Sessions, another player that gave his all was Kevin Love.  It was Love v. the Wiz at several times during the 2nd half.  During the 2nd, I can't remember how many times I watched a Wolves shot go up only to see Kevin Love and 3-4 white jerseys fighting for position under the rim.  On defense Love was often the only Wolves player over 6'7" who appeared to have any interest muscling his man out of the paint.  Love, who played only 28 minutes (seriously, WTF?!), ended the contest with 36% of his team's oreb and 30% of its drebs.  His overall rebound rates were 20/28.6%...in 28 minutes.  Granted, he turned the ball over a few too many times by trying to force some passes and he had his shot blocked a few too many times on what should have been easy put backs, but Love was on his own in the front court last night and you can file that fact away however you see fit. 

OK folks, that about does it for the game wrap.  Today is trade deadline day and I'm sure the chatter will be all about deadline deals and potential deals, not Wolves/Wiz game recaps.  For those of you looking for the HoopData box score, you can click here.  Here's the GameFlow

Will the Wolves make another move?  What was your favorite Brian Cardinal moment?  Do you think he'll be back?  Just how quickly will Darko make his way into the starting lineup ahead of Ryan Hollins?

Until later.

BTW: We'll have a Darko wrap up after the trade deadline.  If the Wolves make any more moves I want to be able to include them in a trade wrap up post.

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Sniff.... The thing I'll miss most.... Sniff....

Is how, whenever he committed a perfectly obvious foul, Cardinal would seek out eye contact with a ref and jab both thumbs in the air, suggesting “Jump ball, right? Right?!?” with his eyes.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 7:15 AM CST reply actions  

That alone

is worth a 2.3 Win Share.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 7:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Hey! Without Al on this team . . .

they would have lost by a least ten more points. IS THAT WHAT ALL YOU AL HATERS WANT???!!!!

Actually, Al’s play and health and the team’s lack of success with him as the #1 guy is starting to tilt me towards not trading him. After seeing the best the rest of the league was willing to offer for Kevin Martin (a player offering similar costs and benefits to Al, in my opinion), I’m afraid the Wolves would have to pair him with a low first round pick to get somebody to take him.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 7:47 AM CST reply actions  

Could be

though if that Deng/Thomas offer was real…

Well, I said in that thread that I probably wouldn’t do that, and I won’t let a couple of horrendous nights (among many, many horrendous nights) change that. Still, I must admit I have trouble understanding the all the angst over breaking up a team that is 13-42.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s angst. For me it’s confusion over how adding players like Deng/Thomas to our team improves us in any way. Merely reshuffling flawed players isn’t going to speed up the rebuild OR help us in the long term, so why break things up when you could wait and possibly better address a need. Not to mention that Al is far from healthy, so it’s hard to think that his trade value is anywhere near a point where it makes sense to move him.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

whoa, whoa, whoa

Who said Deng was a flawed player? I think we all agree, the guy is a bit overpaid. But he makes $2M per year less than Jefferson. Provides similar scoring. And is a better than average defender.

Yes Tyrus Thomas is very flawed, but he’s also off the books next year if he doesn’t work out.

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

So.. he’s not a flawed player? Are you saying he’s a flawless basketball jesus with no weaknesses, sure to win an MVP next year? Obviously you don’t think he’s LBJ, so I’m not sure how you can argue that he’s anything more than a fringe all-star who’s more realistically a solid starter with plenty of weaknesses.

So.. he’s not a flawed player? Are you saying he’s a flawless basketball jesus with no weaknesses, sure to win an MVP next year? Obviously you don’t think he’s LBJ, so I’m not sure how you can argue that he’s anything more than a fringe all-star who’s more realistically a solid starter with plenty of weaknesses.Basically he’s a guy with no post game, no 3pt range (wow he hits .4 3’s a game!) and a rep for having a poor handle and not being great at creating his own shot. You could argue that moving for him makes sense from a balance standpoint, but I don’t buy that he’s going to do more for this team than Al does (in fact, I think he’d do less).

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

I am saying he has a good all-around game, and I will concede that he has no-standout strengths. Fringe all-star, sounds about right. But isn’t that Jefferson’s status as well? (I’d argue he wouldn’t even be that if fans and the media didn’t grossly overvalue ppg stats).

It’s a balanced trade from a talent perspective, but we remove a little salary (on a per yr basis), and replace a positional need with a positional redundancy.

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Honestly, though, that’s stretching it. He’s an 18/7 guy on a mediocre team who makes way more money than he’s worth. You don’t think that we could get more if we wait and Al can establish that he can play at/near his old level? I’m guessing no, because you’ve been on this absurd “dump Al for a bag of Cheetohs” kick for as long as I can remember, but I really think it would be a bad move.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

To be fair, Lu Deng is not a bag of Cheetohs. I think that a case can (and probably should) be made that 18/7 and solid D is at least as constructive as 22/10 with little or no D, especially in light of our unfortunate lineup imbalance and the promise of Kevin Love. Keep in mind that I really like Al. A ton. And I wish every day that I saw more potential for a complete player in him, but I just don’t. If that Chicago deal were sweetened at all, I think I’d have a hard time not pulling the trigger on it.

by TheH on Feb 18, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for noticing...

My “absurd "dump Al for a bag of Cheetohs" kick”. :)

Honestly, you think it would have earned me a little respect by now given the steady erosion in Al’s value and the breakout out of some of my preferred targets.

…Noah and Horford to name two

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

"steady erosion..."

I think that’s the opposite of how I would describe the decline in Al’s value. It plummeted on February 8, 2009. The question is whether he’ll do like 90+% of ACL-tear victims and have a great recovery, or whether he’ll let it end his career as we used to know it, at the age of 25.

If Thomas and Deng were actually offered, that’s probably a sign that his value is increasing. I don’t think we would have gotten that much from Chicago in March 2009.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed. I don’t see anywhere for his value to go but up at the moment.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

KLJ please chime in

so the circle of delusion can be completed :)

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure

In a general sense, that’s why I wouldn’t pull the trigger on that deal either; more specifically, I wouldn’t want to get into a position where I have to match an offer for Thomas that is more than he’s worth.

Still, while I get the reshuffling the deck chairs analogy, how much more clear does it have to get that this combination isn’t working? Trying a different group doesn’t seem like that bad an idea when you are this bad.

Well, I didn’t expect anything big at the deadline, even before Kahn’s pronouncements. Hopefully this summer.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

But here’s the thing: we lack talent, and moving Al or Love isn’t going to fix that. At this point it’s not an issue of our pieces not fitting together, it’s an issue of simply not having enough quality pieces. The only way to fix that is by adding talent, which will (hopefully) happen this summer via the draft/FA.

Throwing in the towel and mixing and matching pieces without adding to the top-end talent level just doesn’t strike me as a strategy that’s going to accomplish anything. Bear in mind I have no blind love for Al. If he needs to be moved, he needs to be moved, but I don’t see why it has to be now.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, one thing I can totally agree with is that we lack talent

Frankly, I don’t disagree with much in your post. I suppose what frustrates me is that first, we suck, and that 2nd, there were several posters who called the Deng/Thomas offer a “joke” or an “insult,” which in my view it clearly is not. It’s not unfair value, really.

I suppose I see what seems to me overvaluing of our own players in such a way that makes no sense to me when a team is 13-42. Even you describe Deng as an 18-7 guy on mediocre teams…well, OK. But how would we then describe Jefferson? Even giving him injury credit, I could fairly say: he’s a 22-11 guy on terrible teams who neither passes nor defends well.

I like Jefferson OK. That’s not really my point. And again, I wouldn’t have made that deal either. But yikes. We suck. Nobody is untouchable, and wanting to change things up doesn’t strike me as an unreasonable position.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

But why even bother being incensed by people calling it a joke? That might be an exaggeration, but it’s far from a good offer. He’s overpaid, he’s not that good AND you’re lucky if you get 60 games out of him. That just makes no sense to me.

I just can’t understand the disdain for Al around here. It’s to the point where you’re overvaluing him if you don’t want to dump him for an overpaid injury risk and a 6’9 220lb PF headcase whose coach hates to play him despite his obvious talent? Seriously? At least move him for more cap flexibility and some promising young talent or a decent pick.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Again, though

couldn’t I justifably call Jefferson “an overpaid injury risk?” I think the same things could be said about Jefferson that you are saying about Deng. I don’t think it’s disdain, except from perhaps a couple of people.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

A torn ACL isn’t a recurring injury risk in my book, it’s a total fluke. Deng’s had crazy stuff going on every year, IIRC (don’t know where to go look up his injury history).

And yeah, sure you could say that about Al. It all comes down to opinion, because I’d argue that he flat out gives you more than Deng does despite being on a similar deal. And even if that’s what you consider Al to be, why swap him for another guy like that? If you’re dumping Al, I think you have to look for young talent or picks. Would Sac trade a future first and Jason Thompson + cap relief? I dunno, but I’d sure as heck look for deals like that over swapping Al’s salary for Deng’s.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I understand Al’s flaws, but the criticism is ridiculous when he is playing for a team w/o a real center, and whose best wing player is Corey Brewer!

Trade Al Jefferson for a Kaman quality center, the Wolves win 35 games next season with a good 1st rounder.
Trade Kevin Love for a Kaman quality center, all things be the same as above the Wolves win 40 games next season.

I’m OK with trading Jefferson, but instead of getting two players for him, the Wolves need to package him and another asset for one better player. This is how a team is built to contend, not just win 40 games for several seasons.

BTW, to all those people who think he is overvalued, wait til this summer. When five teams realize they missed out on the free agency bonanza, Jefferson will have tremendous value, especially if he is moved at the draft.

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

It’s more about Jefferson’s knee than the Love-Jefferson combination. Before his injury, he had pretty high trade value. Without any doubt, it was higher than Deng-Thomas. So we would risk “selling low” to do a deal like this one. If we trade him now, or this summer, and he returns to 23 & 11 Al, on a winning team, it’ll go down as another classic Timberwolves trade.

I’ve never been a big fan of the undersized/unathletic pair up front. But right now, we can’t get good value for Jefferson… there is not a single good reason to dump him while his value is where it is, unless you’re convinced (as DougW and maybe a few more are) that his stock isn’t going to rise, as his knee recovers.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly. You’re not going to get value for him, and since I have yet to see a single persuasive argument as to why we need to move him now, then why do it? This team sucks and they aren’t going to get better until they accumulate talent and build chemistry, so why not wait until you know what you need and hope you can build up Al’s trade value. It’s certainly not going to get any lower.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

No Rush

to trade Al since it’s not like trading him is going to bring in the final piece for a Title Run. There’s no problem being patient. I’m not a big fan of the Deng/Thomas offer since I don’t know that either are anything real special. I don’t think Thomas is a starter where as Deng is slightly above average with Injury Problems. If we could get a skilled defensive big while sacrificing Offense I’d be all for it with Al. I think Kevin Love will probably become the go to guy soon enough anyways.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 18, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Makes sense to me.

I do have doubts that Love will ever be a go-to guy, though. He’s just too slow, on and off the floor to get clean shots for himself. But maybe Peko can be that shot-creator we need, in which case moving Al to improve our defense and team balance starts to make a LOT more sense.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

"I do have doubts that Love will ever be a go-to guy, though"

I love Love, but you’re right on this. However, I do think balancing the lineup and making Love the starting four might bring more wins for the team.

(is it possible for them to get worse?)

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions  

That’s assuming that if we move Al, he plays over 30 mpg, right?

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Probably

In my realistic dreams, I guess I’m seeing a three-headed monster of Love, Cousins, and maybe like, Heywood, each getting 30 minutes or so (with 6 minutes at center left over for Hollins).

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Haywood won't come to the Wolves

his production ebbs and flows depending on how competitive the team is at the time. And Cuban insisted on him for his Bird rights. He is resigning in Dallas most likely.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  

How about

Love, Pekovic, Whiteside?

by LoveTo on Feb 18, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Proof last night of Love's limitations

Pump faked a guy out of his jock, drove past him, yet still had his shot blocked from behind by same defender. Love does many great things on the floor, but serving as a go-to guy in this league is not one of them.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 18, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, to be fair, he COULD be a go-to guy in that you could throw him the ball 20 times a game… Makes sense if you’re trying to set a record for times a guy can get his shot blocked.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Continuing in the mode of being fair

I think Love, to quote Clint Eastwood, does know his limitations and focuses instead on what he can do well. Nothing wrong with getting a double-double game in and game out.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 18, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, definitely. I love him for what he is, but, unfortunately, being 6’9, slow laterally and slow off the ground makes it kind of impossible to be more than an opportunist on offense. Open jumpers, junk points etc. will be his MO. I love the 3pt range, though, that helps alot.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 18, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Few Points

1. Love also draws contact at a pretty good clip. People often seem to forget this when looking at his blocked shot rate. He gets to the line at a vastly higher clip than Al.

2. Love’s TS% IS 4.5 Points Higher than Al’s. With a difference of 1.8 PCT in regards to Usage.

3. Love is a vastly superior passer when defenders collaspe. He’s a go to guy in the sense you can run the offense through him easier than Al. This is still true even if he’s not scoring 25 a night.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 18, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

(3)

Defenders don’t collapse on Love. He’s always guarded 1-on-1, often by the opposing team’s weak interior defenders, either because Jefferson is on the floor or because Love is out there against the other team’s second unit.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Response

1. A significant amount of those FT’s come off of over the backs and contact from rebounds.

2. I can read advanced stats too :) This says nothing about his ability to create shots, just his efficiency from the floor. Go-to guys need to be able to manufacture shots.

3. He’s definitely a more gifted passer, but he’s short and like, Andy says, doesn’t command doubles. As a cog in an offense he’s superior to Al without a doubt, but that in no way supports the argument that he can be a #1 guy.

Now, this is going way off topic and I don’t want to start some huge debate about this, but I’m pretty sure I’m not in the minority when it comes to the opinion that Klove is definitely not a #1 guy. As a go-to guy he’s going to get his shot blocked at a far greater rate than he’ll get clean shots, making him incredibly unreliable. This is the often overlooked benefit of a guy like Al who, for all his warts, rarely has a hard time getting himself shots down low.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

what does AL do better than KLOVE?

get his shot off down low (check)
block shots (check)

rebound (no)
pass (no)
jump shot (no)
three pointer (no)
give effort on defense (no)
be a good teammate (no)
get to the free throw line (no)

So then we have to talk about how valuable each of these things are and quantify how much better Al is than Love or vice versa.

Then we can discuss whether the things Love does better of Al does better are cheaper to acquire, either through the draft or via free agency/trades.

by littleboxes on Feb 18, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok? Where is this coming from? I’m guessing you didn’t read our comment thread.

I was responding to Jose saying that he thinks Al can be a #1. People keep derailing the topic of how well Al can create shots into an argument over who’s a better player, and I’m not sure why.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Excuse me, “Love can be a #1,” is how that should read.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

sure

but I thought the main point of the thread was an argument over why to keep AL in the Al vs. Love death match.

One reason to keep Al is that he’s a #1 scoring option. I was trying to offer a “way out” of that argument, by providing a roadmap of how we could compare the two players.

As in, we have find a way to measure the value of #1 scoring option vs. all the other things Love brings.

it’s not really about who is a better player but rather who is more valuable to the team. But perhaps I’m way off concerning the point of the debate.

I apologize

by littleboxes on Feb 18, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

It was a nice list

Fair list as well.
Ultimately I would like to see Al (and a couple assets) traded for a 7 footer with a similar offensive game, but also better defensively. It is what Love needs next to him. Just not sure that player is there to be had.

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually

I would accept similar offense even if not quite as good, as long as the defense is better…

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 6:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Be a good teammate?

Why do people assume that Love is a better teammate than Al? Please, don’t dredge up the “Al Jefferson scowls at teammates!” nonsense.

by TimAllen on Feb 18, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Response

A good example of the ability to run the Offense through Love would be the 4th quarter of the Utah home loss. Love comes in with 4:39 left trailing by 16. Soon to be 17 after Boozer makes a free throw after Love checks in.

4:30 Love assist to Jefferson
3:59 Love assist to Brewer
3:15 Love assist to Sessions
2:04 Makes Lay-UP
1:30 Makes 2 Free Throws
1:00 Makes 3 Pointer
-0:37
Makes 3 Pointer

Thereby closing the Gap to 3 in a time period of 4 Minutes.

This team should be running the Offense through Kevin Love not Al at the end of games. The reasons for this have been stated already.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 18, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Dude anyone cherry pick a single stat/example, but it doesn’t prove a point. Most teams don’t have defensive front lines consisting of Boozer/Okur/Millsap, maybe the only rotation of bigs worse than ours defensively.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

So far, I've never seen Love score through a double team. I luv Loves game, but he is a complementary offensive player.

At least as shown so far in his career. The few times he has been doubled, he has given up the ball and not scored.

You might say, he should be doing that, but “go to” scorers are expected to score through doubles if necessary.

Does that mean that Love couldn’t learn to become a go to scorer? of course not. But you can’t be a #1 scoring option until you can score through doubles and triples.

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 18, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I think we're operating

Under different premises. My point is that the Offense should run through Love more in the 4th quarter (Brad Miller)- not that Love is going to be the top scorer on a Championship team.

For the Record- I don’t believe Al would be either.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 18, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

my main point about love...

…Has always been that he will eventuall be an upper level glue guy who makes the whole operation tick at a level well above and beyond what al could ever do. Is he a #1 option? Of course not but his overall impact on the game can be right up there with an a list scorer. I’m glad jose mentioned the overall impact stuff. One of the game notes I left out of the recap was loves impact during a 2nd quarter run where he completely set the tone of the game with nothing more than his rebounding, picks, and outlet passing. He got the ball to the point guard in stride at half court after each rebound and the team thrived. This is the style of play kahn talks about and its exactly the sort of thing love brings to the table in spades.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 8:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Probably no rush

but Al and his contract become a less valuable trade asset with every tick of the clock and tweak of the knee.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

That's the tough part

The uncertainty makes things difficult. Nothing’s inevitable with him: as much as he’s improved after the ACL tear, we still don’t know what level he’ll reach aside from where he is now. We also don’t know how well his body will hold up. The key is judging how much of a risk he is (especially relative to contract) and getting the proper value accordingly if need be. I feel like contract and health are just as important when looking at Al’s value as they are with talent and fit.

by nja700 on Feb 18, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with this

I do think Al is a great scorer, but I also think he is ultimately the problem on defense. While the Wolves would be improved by a true center, Jefferson will not be improved by moving to the 4. As overmatched as he can be, I’ll take Love playing the mobile 4s every day vs. Jefferson. But the fact is that we don’t have a center right now. And as much as I think wing production is higher on the list than a defensive big, I don’t think you can dump Jefferson for a wing. And getting Thomas in return solves nothing. He’s your center?

by dropstep on Feb 18, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed...

…and when you throw in the likelihood that his own fanbase overvalues him by a ton, any trade they do end up with will probably be seen as insufficient…especially with the Deng/Thomas rumor out there. That’s probably as high as it’s going to get for Al. I’ll bite my tongue until the off-season on the guy but I think I’m going to end up regretting that they didn’t have that deal.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 7:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Today

I’m willing to blow him up to the Nets for BSimmons, Courtney Lee, and their number one pick.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Some combination of

Wall/Turner/Cousins with two of the top 3 or 4 picks would be nice:

Your 2011 Timberwolves?

Rubio/Flynn
SG X/Lee/Ellington
Turner/Brewer
Love/Cousins
Pekovic/Cousins/Hollins

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

You could certainly be right

but then, it loses much of it’s value, doesn’t it? Let’s say the Nets DO get the first overall pick. Could they pass on Wall? Or do they take him, then have to try to peddle Harris in a buyer’s market? I think they’re going to get skunked in the Free Agent Frenzy, and someone like Al could be a nice consolation prize.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I assume the Nets are whole-heartedly hoping to land Wall...

They’re headed for a 10-win season, and their only good player is a 7’ center. Can’t imagine they’d want anything other than John Wall, or Evan Turner to balance the floor and build for the future.

If the Nets land the 3rd or 4th Pick, and want to deal it to us for Jefferson, that’s an interesting scenario. Assuming we’re taking Wall or Turner with our own Pick, we could get younger and cheaper by taking Cousins or Aldrich with NJ’s pick.

The question becomes, do you go all-out rebuilding mode, like the Blazers and Thunder have succeeded in doing (and post-MJ Bulls failed at, for many years) or do you go with a slightly-better version of the Memphis Plan, and have one veteran star, surrounded by a bunch of developing talent. Does the accelerated growth that Jefferson’s presence would bring outweigh the long-term cost of his aging?

I think this is a realistic scenario to consider — that the Nets pick 3rd or 4th, and are willing to deal it for Jefferson. They could have:

Harris
CDR
Yi
Jefferson
Lopez

We could have:

Flynn/Rubio
Brewer
Turner
Love
Cousins or Aldrich

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

I admit I'm beginning to waver some on this

a couple weeks ago when the idea of getting another high pick came up, I crabbed. How many picks do we freaking need? Enough is enough.

Now, perhaps because I’m increasingly pessimistic about the chances of getting better, this seems more palatable to me.

Of course, trading Al for the Nets pick would also increase the cap space this summer, which is of real interest. I really want some veteran players on this team next season. Not 35 year olds, but adding a couple of 28-29 year old players is not a bad thing. There needs to be a mix, and even if those guys aren’t on the future title team, there is some value in having good players on your team.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

But isn’t Cousins a 6’10 scorer/rebounder who doesn’t play much D? Seems kind of lateral, IMO. Interesting scenario, though. Aldrich or even Whiteside would be very intriguing additions to our lineup.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the Nets

CAN pick lower than third, can they? And aren’t their odds pretty good that they’ll get one of the top two?

As to the Memphis Model, I would prefer to do it the way the Griz did (hard to know if they did it on purpose or not): Get the young talent first, see if it works, THEN add the higher-priced veteran, rather than keeping (and paying) a guy like Al, and hoping for the best.

I like your Baby Wolves squad, though. Some defense, some scoring, some distribution.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

A safe assumption

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 18, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah,

I think the Magic Number for them is 20—a combo of Wolves wins and Nets losses.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

I love Al, and he’s a great player who you could argue may has a fair value contract. But with his talent and his contract we essentially are required to build around him. For better or worse, he’s gonna do a lot of the heavy lifting on the team. This could work with the right player alongside him. I feel like looking to find a specific player to complement our best players’ weaknesses is not the proper way to build a team.

There’s not nearly enough flexibility there for our team to build itself in the way we’d want to. It might be better to trade Al for tons of cap space and a top-4 pick so that we give ourselves the options and flexibility to build the right team from the ground up, and then get the veterans needed when the time is right.

I would even go so far as to espouse the OKC model instead of Memphis, where you accumulate a well-balanced team in the draft and build on a slow burn; where a bunch of young guys mesh together while the GM patiently adds assets. The Sonics got rid of their two best players at one point (both of whom are almost as good as Al or better), and are playoff contenders this year. This could be like when they dealt Allen for the 5th pick. I say this could be a similar situation for us, with possibly two top-5 picks.

by nja700 on Feb 18, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

The key to the Portland/OKC model...

is getting yourself an MVP-caliber player in the draft. If we can do that (and not trade him away, this time), Al is expendable. But even then, we might rather have Al than not have Al.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

You are correct, sir!

Sadly, it almost all boils down to luck. Luck that there’s a stud like that in the draft and luck that you are in position to pick him. In Portland’s case, it was luck that some team was dumb enough to trade you the guy you (probably) scouted pretty well and that a bunch of other teams passed on him.

In other words, we’re screwed.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Best case scenario in my mind

Wolves get the #1 pick (obviously). Then the Nets get the #3 pick. They probably shy away from trying to move up because it would just gut an already depleted roster. Since they have so much cap space, they might give up the #3 for Jefferson, and hope they can get a big free agent to pair with him. This would become a 3 team trade with whoever gets the #2 pick. The Wolves trade the #3 from NJ, along with an extra 1st rounder and Flynn to get the #2 pick.

They leave the draft with Wall and Turner. They join KLove, Brewer, Pek et al. The Wolves still have Rubio rights and cap space, which they hold for another year in hopes of drafting a legit center in the 2012 draft. Team nearly set, with a low payroll.

BTW, this is why I keep insisting they package Jefferson for a better player. They have enough assets to build a good team, they need impact players.

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 6:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait a minute

So you’re essentially trading Jefferson, Flynn, and a first round pick to move up ONE FREAKING SPOT IN THE DRAFT???!!!!

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 7:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, we gave them Jefferson for the 3rd pick.

So it would be Flynn and a first round pick to move up one freaking spot in the draft. Which, if we all really like Turner so much, and given the presence of Rubio and Sessions, is something to at least think about.

by LoveTo on Feb 18, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You got it right

PD apparently just got back from Happy Hour!

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 9:19 PM CST up reply actions  

It's always Happy Hour somewhere.

“The Wolves trade the #3 from NJ (who gave us that pick for AlJeff, right?), along with an extra 1st rounder and Flynn to get the #2 pick.”

What am I missing here?

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Go up a couple spots

You asked if I was saying they should trade…
Jefferson, Flynn and a 1st round pick to move up ONE FREAKING SPOT….NO

I’m saying they would keep their own 1st rounder (see my first comment) for Wall,
then would trade Jefferson, Flynn, and (Utah or Charlotte pick) to Turner. Based on your many comments lately about Jefferson and his contract, I would think you would be all over this idea.

by Rumblebee on Feb 19, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

"trade Jefferson, Flynn, and (Utah or Charlotte pick) to Turner"

Who is Turner, and why does he want Jefferson, Flynn, and that first-round pick?

Seriously, that’s a terrible trade. I like Jefferson for a player and a top three pick (Courtney Lee, maybe CDR), and I like the idea of adding Evan Turner. But that’s way too much to give up for somebody.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't really think we're as far apart in opinion as you may think

I said give up Jefferson for the 3rd pick, you want to add Lee or CDR…not much difference. Neither is a starter on a contender, and they or a similar player can be acquired for nothing this summer thru free agency.

From there, I just think the price to move up to #2 in this draft is high, and the Wolves can afford the cost. Giving up the Utah pick is minor, and Flynn is being replaced by John Wall (while still holding Rubio’s rights). I doubt Flynn is worth much more than the 8th pick in this draft, so it essentially is giving up the 3rd, 8th, and 22nd pick for the 2nd pick (Turner).

The idea is to eventually build a team that produces on the court, not just hold a bunch of assets. Am I giving up a little too much for Turner, perhaps, but the Wolves also gain millions in cap and payroll space by trading Jefferson. I think you’re over 100 posts on the value of that move, so again, it is really getting a return of Turner and significant cash.

This scenario would give the Wolves a backcourt of Wall and Turner (with Sessions as a backup and Rubio on hold). Don’t you think this is the backbone of a championship team? In addition, they have Love, Brewer, Pekovic, the Charlotte pick, and massive cap space to use at next years trade deadline. What more do you want…five more years of rebuilding

by Rumblebee on Feb 19, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Who would give up the 3rd, 8th, and 22nd pick?

That’s a pretty hefty price. Maybe Turner ends up being worth it, but I doubt they couldn’t get a less demanding deal than that. Going by your set value of Flynn at 8th, two top-10 picks and another 1st to move up one spot is ridiculous. I’d probably offer any combo (3 and Utah, 3 and Charlotte, “8” and Charlotte, “8” and Utah.) that doesn’t involve giving up two top-10 worthy picks just to move up a spot.

With this team’s lack of overall talent, I doubt we could afford to give that breadth and depth of talent up for one player, even if he’s fantastic.

by nja700 on Feb 19, 2010 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

If you could go back a few years ago

and trade OJ Mayo, Wayne Ellington and Jonny Flynn for Derrick Rose, would you? That’s basically this deal. I’d do it in a heartbeat…if you wouldn’t, fair enough.

by Rumblebee on Feb 19, 2010 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd consider taking that deal

Even then, I still think that this team might just need to accumulate more starting talent. Though I understand the point you’re trying to illustrate, there are all kinds of reasons why what you just proposed doesn’t make a lot of sense, even hypothetically.

First of all, you combined two drafts; drafts obviously fluctuate in value . Secondly, all of the players are guards. Third, there’s a pretty good chance that the players at the 3 picks we’d own in the 2010 scenario you’ve proposed end up being worth more than the second pick, especially considering we’ve traded Al.

I love Evan Turner and all, but there’s a reasonable argument that possible #3 guys like Cousins or Favors could be just as good or better. They don’t have the same “sure thing” feeling as him, I’ll give you that. But I still think it wouldn’t have to take that much just to move up one spot, even if it’s Evan Turner.

by nja700 on Feb 19, 2010 11:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Your comment about needing to add starters

is essentially what I am trying to do in this scenario. For the sake of argument, let’s say that Turner’s upside and expected career is similar to Jefferson’s (I think a lot of people see him this way, kind of a near All-Star, but for sure solid player). Well, if that’s true, it may not seem like a fair deal, but remember that there will be a major salary difference, Wolves need to add the extra players to make it fair.
Now look at the starters…Turner at SG in a couple years is probably comparable to Jefferson at PF/C. So nothing gained?? Not exactly, now Love can play 10 more MPG, so the loss inside as not as steep as the gain on the perimeter. The Utah pick will likely never be more than a role player, instead of the draft, the Wolves can just sign that guy as a FA because they have the cap space. Yes, they lose Flynn, but don’t forget, my original post was based on the premise that their own #1 pick will be John Wall, thus Flynn is expendable.

Wall, Rubio, Turner, Brewer, Gomes, Love…if these guys reach their potential, this team is only a legit big man from being a contender. They can use the Charlotte pick, a future 1st, or cap space to fill this position. That’s your starters and a couple reserves!

by Rumblebee on Feb 20, 2010 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

let's hope

Kahn comes to his senses this morning and calls the Bulls back. Or even better, that they call us back and throw in Johnson or a #1.

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 8:04 AM CST up reply actions  

I will probably only be satisfied

if they trade Jefferson and a couple other assets for a better player, preferably a 7 foot center to play next to Love. Willing to take back a bad contract for that player. I just don’t see the value in moving Jefferson w/o the player coming back being better. With all the extra assets the Wolves have, they should be able to get a dominant wing using those assets (basically I feel if they end up in the top 5 in the lottery they s/b able to trade up into the top 2 by trading cap space and extra 1st rounders).

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

good one...

Although, I am not even sure if that’s true. How many NBA big men give up 33 and 14 to the duo of Blatche and McGee? You’d think a good sized folding chair could probably hold them under 40. And folding chairs cost much less than $12-15M/year.

Oh well, at least we got our low post scoring need covered.

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 7:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Explain Al last night to me

First half, he could just say the words “pump fake” to Andray Blatche and have him in the air. He went 7-9 and could score at will, but Blatche was doing the same.

Second half: Al played the first 6:00 of the third and missed a single shot. He came in for 4:14 of the fourth, never took a shot.

Was Rambis so angry with his defense that he pulled out the shepherd’s crook and decided to watch Kevin Love take the minutes at the four? Did we decide not to pound away at the thing we knew we could accomplish (score from the post with Jefferson) in order to develop talent, much as we’ve pretended Jonny Flynn can’t score 50 and have 12 dimes a night if we let him run the pick and roll? What gives?

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

While Jefferson was in

he should have been getting unlimited touches. Agreed. But his defense was so putrid last night I didn’t have too much of a problem with him sitting on principle. Given that his replacements didn’t fare much better, however, he likely should have played more.

by dropstep on Feb 18, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

He had one shot in the 2nd half that he MADE! he was 8 of 10, not 7 of 10. He shouldn't have been playing. Both knees were painful.

Jefferson wanted to play to show dedication to his team.

Fan response to his dedication – he can’t play defense again…. its almost laughable.

The only one in town who does appreciate what Al does is Kahn.

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 18, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

He's persecuted, we get it.

You’re right, he was 1-1 in the third.

When I ask “What gives?” it’s a genuine question, not some sort of piling on.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Ever heard the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

At the end of the yearly standings, good intentions mean little if they don’t bring about positive results. This doesn’t mean that I don’t laud Al’s intentions and dedication to the team – it’s questioned around here at times, though I feel that the general consensus is positive in this regard – but we’re trying to be realistic about what Al’s deficiencies are and how his style of play and contract affect his value.

Nearly everybody here appreciates Al’s scoring and rebounding, that he’s still in recovery from his ACL tear, that he is improving in areas of weakness, and that he maintains a relatively positive outlook despite a history of losing. He’s certainly a talented, valuable player who works hard. There’s virtually no doubt of that here. He’s definitely a top player in this league on one side of the ball, and his post-scoring skills are rare. His being a “good guy” is certainly good for the locker room and for marketing as well.

On the other side of the coin, to deny that his glaring faults aren’t a major concern and that a player’s “good guy” persona leaves him immune to tough criticism is naive and unproductive. Of course, a team does need good guys along with no team cancers. It’s the way team chemistry works. In spite of his good nature, however, there are legit concerns about if his game outside of scoring and rebounding will ever be good enough to lead this team where it wants to be.

I’m sure everyone would love for him to be that player, but you would have to be blissfully ignorant to not at least question his value in the context of finding something better. Pro sports are a business, and the business at its most honest is predicated on consistent winning. These guys, being good or bad people, are interchangeable as assets in this league. Good intentions matter, but there’s no injustice in honest criticism and the pondering of the overall value of a guy as an asset.

by nja700 on Feb 19, 2010 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

One hates to tempt fate

but this could be the low ebb moment of the season. Two terrible losses out of the break with almost no effort, this one to a team that barely qualifies as an NBA team without it’s 4 best players.

Guys like Pecherov and Pavlovic getting minutes. Getting out-assisted by 10 by the freaking Wizards.

I wish I had something good to say, but this team is terrible. Really, really, awful.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 18, 2010 7:48 AM CST reply actions  

Is this like the last 30 games of last season? Al is injured again and our play deteriorates......sound familiar?

In both of the two recent losses, Jefferson has played injured!

He should have just sat, then it would be clearer what the true issue is…. this team depends on good play from Jefferson to have a chance to win!

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 18, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Sessions.

Flynn was taken out with 4:45 remaining in the third quarter and did not return. The Wolves were down six at that point. I do not agree with your “obviously nothing to play for” and “running plays with the team down a ton” comments. The largest lead the Wizards had after that was 12 points which was cut to 4 points two minutes into the fourth quarter. They were never down “a ton” and easily could have won the game.

I honestly think we are watching different games. I didn’t see anything from Sessions that was better than Flynn, even effort. Rambis even mentioned in his postgame that nobody played well or hard except Love and even he simply got a “did a few good things” comment.

by Menyun3 on Feb 18, 2010 8:10 AM CST reply actions  

Oops.

The last sentence was actually based off the Rambis interview after the Detroit loss. Now I am getting my Rambis loss interviews mixed up. I did watch the right game though. Just saw it differently.

by Menyun3 on Feb 18, 2010 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

late 4th...

…Check the game flow. Sessions and love were the only ones playing hard when they were down by a bunch with very little time to go.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 8:54 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

SnP and others.

Please answer this question with complete honesty. If the situation was reversed, Flynn came in after Sessions down six against the Wizards with 4:45 remaining in the third and played the rest of the way. Even if he gave plenty of “effort”, would you applaud Flynn for that or tear him apart for not pulling out a winnable game against a crappy Wizard team?

I believe there would have been a massive write-up and multiple posts by people about how Sessions should have been in the game because he would have won it.

by Menyun3 on Feb 18, 2010 9:17 AM CST up reply actions  

it's absolute and relative effort

Sessions effort stood out last night because Flynn looked unmotivated.

It’s probably a rookie thing rather than a Flynn thing. Sessions has more experience preparing himself to play games over a long season and being a professional.

Chances are if Flynn came in and played hard it would not stand out because sessions was already playing hard.

by littleboxes on Feb 18, 2010 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

i hope im always honest...

…In my commentary on the site. My answer here is that I don’t know how I’d respond…mostly because a role reversal isn’t in any danger of happening anytime soon.

My more general answer is that I only comment on players’ broad characteristics after seeing enough data to back up the central focus of my critique about this, that, or the other guy. I then tend to focus these general points onto specific game examples. This is why, I think, I’m hard on flynn vis a vis sessions. The team plays better with ramon and I look for ways to tie season long trends in on/off plus/minus data that say as much to specific game action. I hope that more often than not I’m close to the mark. This is how I have approached things on the site for a while and It’s why flynn is more likely to get the massive negative writeup. I don’t buy into potential as something that should inform my writing about these guys and I’m a huge fan of efficiency. Love, kevin martin, carl landry, dirk…these sorts of players will always be viewed more favorably by me and I think I’m fairly open, honest, and consistent about that. That being said, I am about to start up the rudy gay chants here pretty soon ;) wolves off season 2010: bring me rudy, manu, and a big al for noah and filler trade!!!

PS: I hope this helps letting you know where I’m coming from on this front.

PPS: the manu chants will also start very soon

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 8:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Your post seems to match

what I have seen you write about Flynn and Love this season, FWIW.

Interested in what you have to write about Manu, intriguing thought, although I’m not sure I buy Kahn making this move??? Bringing in a vet who spent about a decade playing for Popovich can’t be a bad thing.

A Rudy Gay nugget for you. Jerry Zgoda was righting about the Ronnie Brewer to Memphis deal…he thinks it may be a hint that Memphis is planning on not having Rudy around next season! Thought you might like this take.

I keep thinking if Chicago gets D-Wade, they will come hard after Jefferson, the offer yesterday is just the start. Wade and Jefferson could be an unstoppable offensive tandem. Plus, the filler (Hinrich) the Wolves take for cap purposes would probably give the Bulls room to get another big FA. If the Bulls could do this and trade Deng for a great perimeter defender, they could get good really fast.
Hmmm…Stoudemire not going to Miami may be a huge break for the Wolves.

A Love/Noah/Pekovic front court could be really good for a decade. This is what is so frustrating right now as a fan, the answers are there, they just always seem to be beyond grasp for a multitude of reasons.

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

RUMINT has it..

….that Chicago will go for Wade + Bosh or Amare….and yes, the Brewer trade is good for the Wolves’ hopes of signing Gay.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

These guys will obviously each impact FA this summer

but I think Bosh is the real wild card. If he were to stay in Toronto it would really effect the PF market this summer. Jefferson’s value could increase 25% if Bosh stays in Toronto.

BTW, isn’t it just sad that the Wolves seem to have zero chance of landing a Wade, Bosh or LeBron. When the Twins don’t get a free agent because they don’t have the money, I can accept the fact. The Wolves have the money, the potential for a good young nucleus, yet are irrelevant. I’ve wanted to post a comment that the Wolves should try to do a sign and trade where Jefferson and the Utah 1st rounder goes to Toronto and the Wolves get Bosh, but what’s the use?

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 10:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed ont the 2nd paragraph

Literally the only columnist I can think of that actually put out the T-Wolves as a viable destination was John Hollinger. There are definitely many reasonable reasons why players would decide against us, but I feel as if the reasons for coming here are ignored or dismissed off hand.

Not that I blame anyone for ignoring us due to our history, but we’re not completely devoid of worth to these guys. I’m obviously not thinking that any of them will come here, but I’m happy with using the cap space in more creative ways.

by nja700 on Feb 18, 2010 11:42 PM CST up reply actions  

they never were..

….going to get one of those guys anyway. They’re going to be the team that overpays for someone like Gay, Johnson, or Manu and then has enough left over to make a lopsided trade next year at the deadline. This could even be an interesting player. For instance, if Amare takes his option with Phoenix, and the Suns are in the 8th or 9th seed next year at this time, the Wolves could offer up something like Pekovic, a late pick, and a cap hold for 2 months of his services and hopes that they could keep him there for the long term. If they get a free agent for $10 mil next year they will have about $4-6 mil under the cap to work with a lopsided trade.

The sad thing here is that they yet again let expiring deals go to waste. I suppose someone like Blount and Cardinal could be used for cap holds but I think they missed out on a golden opportunity. They could have been Houston and done a joint hold-up on the Knicks with Sac Town. Morey really knows what he is doing.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 19, 2010 7:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep

“The sad thing here is that they yet again let expiring deals go to waste. I suppose someone like Blount and Cardinal could be used for cap holds but I think they missed out on a golden opportunity.”

- Not sure if you read all the comments in my thread or not, but the above are also my thoughts exactly.

Epic Fail.

:-(

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I wasn’t upset at all we didn’t do anything significant with the expirings, but at least trading down some dollars and getting some draft picks, or swapping out some young guys for draft picks would have been nice. I dont think the Iggy/Martin approach does anything for us long term. If anything, it hurts us quite a bit and is ore of the same.

However, look at what Houston got for McGrady. I mean, wow. We had the same amount in expiring money, and even though KMart was inolved, so much as was as well. That should have been us in there and its disappointing.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

"The Wolves have the money"

I’m gonna keep hammering on this until every damn fan understands it.

Having cap room is different from having money. Using expirings to acquire players requires that the team pay the acquired players’ salaries into the future. A money-losing organization like the Timberwolves is not going to continue to guarantee more and larger losses by paying players who may or may not translate into more wins, more ticket sales, and more advertisers.

If you expect anything differently, you’re going to be sadly disappointed. And you can argue all you want about “Glen’s a billionaire!” and “Well, why even have a team in the first place?”, but I believe that until this team turns a profit and cash flow goes positve, that’s the painful truth.

Want to do something about it? Buy a ticket.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Fail

First off, I had season tickets for 3 years.

Secondly, “raw cap space” for a small market-ish team like the TWolves does NOTHING except save the owner money. That’s the bottom line. It’s a farce.

Next year we will have no exceptions, and all that cap space will be gobbled up by the 12 man roster, resigning our players, and then our draft picks. So yeah, $22.5 million expirings were WASTED at this deadline. Completely wasted. To save Glen Taylor money.

Look at all the teams with money now. Clippers, Heat, Knicks, Bulls, Wizards, etc etc etc. NO top free agents will sign with us this off-season, or anytime soon. Have fun with that.

If you want to make money and cut corners, don’t own a professional sports team.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Why does Glen Taylor

have an obligation to you, me, or anybody else to lose his money?

We obviously can get a lot of pain and pleasure out of following the team without having to send a single penny his way. The flip side of that is that he gets to do whatever he wants with it. There certainly are consequences to his actions, but it’s his team, not ours.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope, no obligation

But then I hope he’s happy with this pathetic team that will continue to lose money as the fan base stays away in droves.

I guess from that perspective, you are completely right.

But then why own the team? Sorry if I’m bothered by an inept organization running my favorite team. I honestly wish they weren’t my favorite team. It’s not that easy though. You can’t just go cheer for or “like” some other team the way you do “your” team.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

No, it pisses me off

just as much as it pisses you off. And the fact that you HAD season tickets puts you in the upper range of fans who are part of the solution. But still, you chose to not renew the tickets, maybe because the team sucked and you had better places to put your hard-earned money.

I’m guessing Glen’s making the same decision for the time being. I think if they get a Star in the draft, and can either trade Al for a more complementary starter, or turn Al’s talents into more wins, more people will come to the Target Center, watch the games on tv, etc. But until then, I expect they’re going to “cut corners,” like you say.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok well fair enough.

I didn’t renew my tickets because we sucked. It was the inept leadership, to be honest. Plus with a two year old, there are just so many other better ways to use my time and money (in comparison to on season tickets when this team is run the way it is.)

The odds of getting a star in the draft are low (for us because luck/history/cursed.) On the flip side, you need to spend money to make money (aka win.) I have almost zero faith in this organization turning us into a contender via the OKC/Portland route. Those $22.5 million in expirings could have gone a loooong way into securing assets to turn this franchise around much more quickly.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I MEANT:

“I didn’t NOT renew my tickets because we sucked.”

I didn’t care that we were losing those three years.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Too true.

(and you mean you couldn’t envision 16 years down the road saying to your kid, “Sorry, honey, there’s no money for college because Daddy needed to see Kevin McHale and Randy Wittman lose 60 games a season.”?). Good choice . . .

If Glen and POBO knew that spending 22.5 mm on salaries would guarantee a comensurate amount in revenue, I feel that they would do it. But it doesn’t guarantee anything other than spending 22.5 mm. If they said, “hey we’re either going to spend that money getting us from 40 wins to 60 wins, or 20 wins to 40 wins, which do you want?”, I’ll take the former. Let’s see if Kahn and Rambis can get this squad and the picks to 40 wins on their own.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

We wouldn't have had to turn the 22.5M expiring into an additional 22.5 million

Look what the Rockets got for JUST Jeffries.

How long will it take Kahn and Rambis to get to 40 wins on their own? And to what cost to the fanbase?

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

and, it's not just Glen Taylor

The NBA has structural financial issues. They positioned themselves as a premium product with high ticket prices and salaries ballooned in line. The whole model was predicated on ever rising incomes and corporations/business owners recklessly throwing huge sums of tax deductible dollars at premium seats and boxes. Obviously times have changed.

Its prudence, not greed, that is keeping owners from committing large sums of money to long term contracts when they know salaries are headed south in a big way.

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I gotta stop agreeing with you

all of the time.

People are starting to talk.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess I didn't clarify here...

“Its prudence, not greed, that is keeping owners from committing large sums of money to long term contracts when they know salaries are headed south in a big way.”

- But in my TWB forum post, I was most disappointed about not facilitating in the way the Rockets did. We could have “rolled over” our expiring contracts for Jeffries/Curry… and look what the Rockets got out of it. There are a lot of contracts we could have gotten that only have one year left. Obviously I’m not saying we should have made trades for some contract with 2-3-4+ years left. But there is a TON we could have done.

Kahn has made moves and trades like an addict needs more crack. He’s been the most active GM in the league since he was hired.

You are telling me that he couldn’t find any uses for $22.5 million of expiring contracts during a VERY active trade deadline?

It’s actually better to operate ABOVE the salary cap in the NBA, than below. Especially for a team like ours.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Aren't they well above the salary cap now?

How’s that working for success on the court and at the box office?

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

It was the apex

Where we could have capitalized on our contracts.

Instead, we will be below the cap next year. A large part of our cap space will be used up just filling a 12 man roster and resigning our own guys. How does that ever get us out of mediocrity? We can’t even offer a max contract. Who would come here?

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

We are pretty much just at the cap. And I guess from GlenT’s perspective in terms of “paying salaries” and from a team revenue standpoint, if he truly plans on bringing in a big free agent, what does the say about his willingness to spend money? He would do it, and that to me suggests we could have done something to capatilize on the expiring deals if it meant future assets (aka NOT Kevin Martin or a similarily overpaid/rated swingman loser). As I said above, traing for Ellis, Iggy and company would have been a mistake, but CARDINAL FOR a horrified/traumatized DARKO? Thats IT?

I think Kahn put way too many eggs in one basket this time.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I think one thing

that prudent/frugal owners are looking at is that under a new CBA, new contracts may not be guaranteed, at least not for the length of the original contract. Whereas current contracts will likely be grandfathered in. So if that’s the case, it’s better to pay a lot after the lockout, rather than before it—at least you know you’ll reduce the risk/reward relationship in your favor.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Yea and with this talk that contracts signed wont be grandfathered in, and will have to apply to the new rules. Its a huge mess.

 Might I add that, pehaps, teams arent “preparing for the 2010 Free Agency class’” like the media says, and in fact are preparing for a MAJOR RESTRUCTURE of salary cap rules. You have to think thats an equal part of the thinking behind some of these deals made yesterday.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe even the Wolves sadly, which is why I was totally in support of “modest deals” considering the mediocre peeps who were available. I wrote a long one on the subject:

http://www.twolvesblog.com/201002032758/minnesota-timberwolves/articles/the-truth-about-the-trade-deadline.html

But it irks me we didn’t even do something on the level of the Ronnie Brewer trade, or even the Alando Tucker trade! That’s what is annoying to me. No trade to gain assets while maintaining a fiscally responsible payroll. I’d say that is what CW and many others are so fed up with.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Well,

it takes two teams to make a trade. Was there a trade that did occur that:

1. Was a modest deal financially?
2. Made sense for the Wolves from an economic and an on-court perspective?

but that some other team took instead of Minnesota?

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Look at all the moves that were made...

Kahn couldn’t have done ANYTHING with any of those teams?

Anyone that believes that is a fool (not directed completely or solely at PoorDick.)

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess

unless you’re Kahn, or have priveleged access to back room thoughts, dealings, and conversations, you’ll never know for sure.

In the meantime, I’ll go by what I DO know—nothing was done by another team (perhaps short of the Brewer deal) that fit the criteria.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Sigh…perhaps we agree to disagree. I’m just not sure I understand your position here.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, the Ronnie Brewer trade. We offer the Jazz’s pick back , Pech and cash for Pechs salary for Brewer.

And yes, you HAVE To believe there were deals.

My only explanation is Kahn is hell bent on maintaining our draft position within the top 5. Adding a player like Brewer would have been a slight wing improvement, and likely would have led to some “bad wins.” I just have to believe that’s the ONLY reason behind the lack of activity, especially since there HAD to be some good deals out there that didnt affect our financial situation. There just had to be.

And I guess, in the long run, I cant disagree with him if it means a look at Turner/Wall as our future A-man.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Why do I

HAVE to believe there were deals? And what improvement does Brewer bring to the table over what the current Brewer has, relative to the pick, Pech, and the cash?

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

OMG

Are all your responses going to be like this? You don’t think there were ANY possible deals huh? Look how many trades were made!

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Back atchya.

Just sayin’ that for all we know, there wasn’t anything of interest, or they would have taken it.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

OK

Weird how there was no interest with all the trades made. We could have made trades with any number of those teams…

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 2:38 PM CST up reply actions  

We're gettin' skinny here

so this will be my last comment (you’re welcome).

There’s a perfect storm of reason, I think, why the Wolves won’t be spending money right now. Later, post-CBA, sure.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

It wasnt about “spending.” It was about being smart and utilizing assets. Argueing over a potential “phantom deal” is a waste of our time, clearly, so we can hopefully agree that is would have been nice to see a little more activity and smart movement to gain some more assets. I’d love to think this was a possible thing considering Kahn has gotten hosed on a FEW of the trades he has made.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

We couldn't.

Lopsided trade into cap space. You know, the stuff that we aren’t supposed to have because it doesn’t do us any good. They wanted lux relief. Giving the Pech and a pick doesn’t get the deal done. Ever.

by TheH on Feb 19, 2010 6:43 PM CST up reply actions  

As for having a TON of cap space...

(Obviously there are a few rounding differences and whatnot here, but you get the point)

The salary cap for next year is projected to be around $53 million.

Right now, after our contracts and whatnot expire, the Wolves owe $34 Million for 8 players. So, you say that is a difference of $19 million.

However you have to have 12 players. Let’s just pretend the Wolves ONLY have 12 players going into next season (highly doubt it.) But, we have three first round picks. Our pick alone will make about $4.5 million. Let’s say the other two picks make a combined make $4.5 million. So, that’s $9 million right there.

Now the Wolves are at $43 Million for 11 players. You need to sign at least one more player. That leaves us only $10 million under the cap to sign any free agents, or any other players whatsoever. We can’t even offer 1 max contract.

That is not “tons” of cap space. How do we improve under this scenario? I would have rather traded for Curry and gotten Jordan Hill and/or Galinari and/or Chandler + 2 first round picks…

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Well,

Galinari didn’t get traded, so I’m not sure how his name gets entered into the equation.

So you’re left with spending money on Hill, Chandler, and Curry—none of whom would start on this team as they currently stand, or will be leading a team to a championship any time soon. How much real dollars would that have cost the team, relative to the value of the future picks?

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Hill, Chandler, and Curry

take up 3 roster spots. We still sign our draft picks. Roster full and no need to overpay a crappy FA like Rudy Gay.

How does this cost excess money? Those picks from the Knicks could be gold when their plan to land LeBron fails.

by College Wolf on Feb 19, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

By drafting well and a little something called ‘player development’ is my suspicion.

by JMGrady on Feb 19, 2010 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

good example

to my point…Kevin Martin at $10M for the next four years is going to look like an increasingly terrible value. I think the Rockets would have been far better off letting that TMac contract expire…unless Jordan Hill turns into Amare Stoudamire, and that is not looking likely.

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Too true about Martin

What little the Kings got for him shows:

1. How afraid they were of paying him for what he brought to the team for wins/fans.
2. How the rest of the league agreed.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

yes

You are wise beyond your 304 yrs Poor Dick.

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I must admit

I’m starting to slip a bit.

However, I’m kept young at heart, mind, and body by the company of a good wench and a tankard of ale.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Also probably the only reason why Kahn didnt trade big Al now, when his value was probably the lowest it would be. You have to assume he will unload him this summer to a team with cap room in the top 10….perhaps the Wizards for their pick and others? Hmm….seems to be a Grunfeld pattern.

by WallyW0rld on Feb 19, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the monetary lesson

My finance degree and years of banking experience couldn’t figure this out, but you held my hand and helped.

A simple question…look at the post I made that YOU are responding to, I brought up how sad it is the Wolves are not even in the discussion for guys like LeBron and Wade. Do you think just maybe, just maybe….signing either LeBron or Wade would sell a few tickets and some advertising? Come on, signing either of these two would be a fiscal dream come true for Glen Taylor and Co.

BTW, I never say Taylor should lose money, I’ve said he deserves to be careful because he has been willing to spend this in the past…In fact this is about the third time I’ve had to respond to you with this same comment after you’ve misread/misinterpreted one of my posts.

by Rumblebee on Feb 19, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Some guys are worth the max...and a more

LeBron and Wade are good examples. And we should totally throw down for them. But obviously, every other team in the league with cap space is going to make an offer too. I think, the point is more “spending the money, just because you have it” and bidding up for the services of a guy whose skills and marketability do not clearly translate into a positive return on your investment.

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

"In fact this is about the third time . . .

 . . . I’ve had to respond to you with this same comment after you’ve misread/misinterpreted one of my posts."

Considering I went to the goodest college in the Big Ten, I blame you.

And society. I also blame it/them.

by PoorDick on Feb 19, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

HA!

After studying (wasting) years at gooder community collage, me too went to a goodest college in the Big Ten.

Just try to remember I’m not a poster who thinks Taylor should waste money on a 30-40 win team (50-60 win may be another deal…that’s for a debate later, hopefully not too much later). I know my pseudonym?? is not quite as memorable as yours, but I tried to be distinctive.

Also, as to your question above about a trade that was made and the Wolves missed out….I would like to know if they tried to get Jeffries from NY. Cardinal for Jeffries and the 2012 1st rounder they sent to Houston would have been enticing, and less than Houston received. I would have expected NY to toss in $3 mil to cover half of Jeffries salary next year. I would think NY would have rather paid cash vs. risking having to swap a high pick to Houston. Other than this POSSIBLE deal, I don’t see where Kahn left much on the table.

by Rumblebee on Feb 19, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Interesting implications on the Brewer deal. Won’t he be a restricted FA as well? I’m not hot on going after him given his dropoff and our own Brewer’s improved play, but that status can only help if another team decides to go after him and force their hand early.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Where was...

that Mike Miller, last year?

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 8:22 AM CST reply actions  

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1

Mike Miller jacking up (and making three’s) had me the angriest I’ve been since the Randy Wittman vs Golden State debacle early last season. What the hell was Miller doing last year? Why didn’t he shoot? It’s really crazy.

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 9:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Jim Pete...

had a hard time containing his own frustration.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

me too...

…I couldn’t figure out a charitable way to put it into family_friendly writing in the game wrap. Its going to suck even more when magic mike signs for pennies on the dollar wherever lebron ends up. Watch, he’ll take the vets minimum to go to cleveland next year if he can’t get the mle.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 9:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

MM is a douche. So glad he and frustrating Foye were turned into Rubio.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

This is what gets me about Simmons' rant against Kahn...

He always fails to mention how TERRIBLE the original deal was for Washington. If we offered to trade them expiring contracts and the rights to Rubio for Miller and Foye…how quickly would Washington say yes? 1 second? 1 millisecond?

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually

I think you will find that the Wizards community is fairly divided over the trade. Remember, after the trade, we were projected as at least a number four seed in the East. No one expected gungate, Butler to be ineffective in Flip’s system, and general selfishness to overwhelm the team. If you had a checklist of everything bad that could happen to a supposedly competitive team, it has happened to the Wizards.

And I like Foye and Miller personally. They play hard which is more than can be said for Butler and some of the other Wizards.

I won’t go into the Rubio thing because I have a differing opinion, but I would like to come back here and not set off a firestorm.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

It made some sense for you guys at the time, but it was a slam dunk deal for the Wolves. MM and Foye did essentially nothing for a rebuilding team because you know pretty much exactly what both guys are going to do for you. There’s no potential with those two, which is exactly what the Wolves need(ed).

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Right

but at the time, we weren’t rebuilding. I would love to have a crystal ball and use the number five pick and draft Stephen Curry. But all analysis at the time pointed to the fact that this was the first year in three that we would have all of the “Big Three” playing together, along with Haywood who had been hurt almost the entire previous year.

If the Wizards were 7 games over .500 right now, Arenas was 80% back, and Foye and Miller were doing there jobs as key role players, this trade wouldn’t look like such a slam dunk. At the time, I thought it was a fair trade for value. I still think it was a fair trade for value considering that NO ONE could have predicted the shit storm which has enveloped the franchise this year.

If you look at the deadline deals this year, I think we were one of the the few teams who managed to extract max value. The other trade that was on the table at the time was Josh Howard or Jason Terry for Butler and the #5. That would have been even worse.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, I understand it from the Wiz’s point of view. I’m just saying that for us, it was a slam dunk and I’m glad it went down the way it did. Then again, I never liked Foye and Miller, so I would have been happy with it even if we’d landed someone other than Rubio.

Sorry your season turned out the way it did, though. Total bummer for you guys.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Well to look on the bright side

Hopefully, Leonsis gets to buy the team and I think we will see a quicker than usual turnaround after we fire EG and bring in a Morey/Presti type of GM. I think Teddy learned from his acquisition of Jagr that building a team is done through drafting and depth, and not “purported” stars.

Another point, which I made on BF, is that you really can’t undervalue chemistry and how much players like each other. The Wizards have been sniping at each other all season, so it was refreshing last night to watch the new players go out and give 110%, even if it was a terrible game aesthetically.

Also, Butler went 6-17 last night with multiple jab steps and a few charges. He might indeed be cooked.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

oh and I will say

that it nice to visit another board and have a rational discussion without having people jump down one’s throat. I hope you guys feel welcome at BF.

I tried going on the Cavs Blog last night to discuss the Jamison trade. Not good times. Maybe bad teams just have better analytical fans.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll turn into Blazers’s fans as sure as we start winning. Right now we have no fire and nothing to take pride in, so it forces you to be pretty objective.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Also, to be fair to you guys, it doesn’t look like nearly the slam dunk for us if the BPA at #5 turns out to be Hasheem Thabeet. (I would never have made that possible on my draft board, but you know what I’m saying.) Just a note that the worst possible spin for this trade is exactly what is being realized: unexpected superstar prospect slides to #5 in an otherwise bleak draft, veteran role players become useless when your team falls apart, etc. The trade starts to look a lot different.

by TheH on Feb 18, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

not to mention the fact that he finally cut his hair

so basically he stops looking like a freakshow AND shoots the three-ball AFTER we get rid of him?!

what a turd sandwich.

by BVP on Feb 18, 2010 9:44 AM CST up reply actions  

hair in the eyes?

that crew cut must boost his confidence more than last year’s metrosexual coif.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 18, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

McHale is still GM

if Miller wasn’t such a shooting stiff last season.

by Rumblebee on Feb 18, 2010 6:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Wizards on Love

The Wiz announcers said at some moment in the fourth quarter that Kevin Love was

outmuscling
out-husling
out-smarting

the Wizards big men. Although, during the game thread last night a few (and that’s counting Oceanary) were lamenting Love’s defense as well.

I noticed the Wizards employing an interesting double-team strategy on Jefferson last night. I’ve seen it before, I guess, but I really noticed it last night. They would not send the double team when Al received the ball but they would send it once he put his head down and started his move. Al never saw the double team coming and a few times was left unable to score or pass the ball once the double came.

That’s a very effective way to defend Al Jefferson. It relies on making sure he catches the ball 10 feet out. But as he’s getting better at passing out of the double when he sees it coming, more and more teams are going to leave him in single coverage, wait for him to make his inevitable move to the post and then double him. This works because his moves almost always involve him with his head down.

In fact, although Al can score agains the double team he does this best when the double team is there when he begins his move. It’s the surprise double mid-move that totally screws him.

Al is still easily the biggest offensive threat this team has and before the break he was often making a solid effort on defense. Hopefully his injury has more to with is lack of effort than up and down motivation.

by littleboxes on Feb 18, 2010 8:31 AM CST reply actions  

Jefferson was 7-10 last night.

He took a single shot after halftime. Whatever the Wizards were doing, it didn’t force Al into a lot of bad shots. It looks in the box score more like Rambis just couldn’t live with his defense.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Feral

I asked the question over on BF, but perhaps the Wolves fans can enlighten me…why is it supposedly impossible to play Big Al and Love together? Is there an established reason for this? Also, why did Flynn look like he didn’t give a crap last night? I though the book on him was that he was a great competitor.

I’m sorry you guys had to lose to our no account team. We had no idea that Michael Ruffin 2.0 (James Singleton) would turn into Cinderella for one night.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by Sean Fagan on Feb 18, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I think Flynn was looking forward to the Cuse-GT game today...

and didn’t focus on the game last night against the Wizards.

by Menyun3 on Feb 18, 2010 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Answered it there, too

Al and Love: At this point, it’s defense that’s the problem with the pairing.

Flynn: Jonny’s a rookie PG playing in an offense with large elements of triangle; his coach has deliberately withheld pick and roll stuff that Flynn lived off of in college. Big emphasis: he’s a rookie PG, and he’s had those rookie swings. Again, if the Wolves were seriously wringing wins from their schedule they’d be starting Sessions, who runs the offense far more smoothly. They’re completely about developing youngs this year.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Singleton and Blatche showed why they have a hard time playing together

Anytime a team has a 4 who can hit 20 footers Love/Jefferson becomes terrible on defense. It’s happened a number of times this year and both Singleton and Blatche were hitting jumpers consistently.

by jballer_13 on Feb 18, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Established reason

In addition to their defensive liabilities, starting them together left us with almost zero talent to speak of on the second team. So splitting them up was a way of charging the subs, and it actually worked for a few games.

by secretarykissinger on Feb 18, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

good catch...

…On the double teams.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 18, 2010 9:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Randy Foye's shooting stroke

After watching last night’s game, I noticed something that probably has always been a problem, but did anyone else see how long it takes “Third Quarter Foye” (apparently he scores more in the 3d with the Wiz) to actually get a shot off? His form essentially starts with the ball down by his waist and then takes longer than usual to actually get to a release point at the top of his shot. If anyone actually guarded him close on the perimeter, there would be no way for him to get a shot off without Foye doing a dribble-step back manuever.

by BVP on Feb 18, 2010 9:53 AM CST reply actions  

Small hands, I think.

I remember the day when I saw Randy Foye’s hands on TV (unfortunately after the draft). I pretty much gave up hope for a tightened handle or a quicker release.

by TheH on Feb 18, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Hand size is the new arm length. I’m convinced it’s a huge huge factor in basketball that almost never gets mentioned. Look at guys like Rondo who can just palm the ball up without effort. It makes handling, passing etc. so easy.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Kwame

Tiny hands. I think Hollins might suffer the same disease.

'It's just noise coming out of an ugly scientist.' Michael Scott

by CaliWolf on Feb 18, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

The reason why Phil said that Kobe will never be as good as Jordan, especially at finishing. Jordan had massive hands, especially in comparison to Kobe.

by nja700 on Feb 18, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Hand size

I thought large hands made it difficult to shoot, but I don’t remember the context in which I heard it. Am I making that up?

by John Doe on Feb 18, 2010 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Chris Ballard's book...

Art of a Beautiful Game has a chapter on free throws, and why big men have such a difficult time with them. A main theory on the topic was that their hands are so big that it’s like throwing a tennis ball at the hoop, which is quite difficult.

by LoveTo on Feb 18, 2010 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m sure it makes it more difficult, although there are always guys out there who seem to do fine despite obviously having big hands. NBA City has balls with handprints from famous players on it, and guys like Kobe and KG have pretty damn big hands and still managed to do just fine from the stripe. IIRC KG’s handprints were pretty similar to Duncans, and Duncan has always struggled while KG has been pretty solid. Who knows?

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 7:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Jefferson gets no credit for trying to play while injured. So he shouldn't play while injured. Its not like we really need the wins anyway.

His left knee has been sore all season.

Now his right knee has been sore for the last couple of games as well.

If I was Jefferson, I’d sit until my right knee felt better. When you play and you are not moving well, you are just criticized for not playing defense, so there’s no point.

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 18, 2010 10:17 AM CST reply actions  

Probably the staff should sit him, if it's at that point

Rest your star player.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

When 2 crappy GM's collide

Did you see this supposed trade?

According to multiple NBA sources, the Warriors rejected Memphis’ intriguing offer of OJ Mayo + contract-filler.

This deal was first offered at the start of the season and possibly is still on the table, in Memphis’ view, and still rejected by the Warriors.

I have no idea why Chris Wallace of Memphis would offer Mayo up for Ellis. Ellis is essentially a more expensive and less efficient version of Mayo. But Golden State said “no”?? What’s worse…the offer or the refusal?

Here’s the link

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 10:44 AM CST reply actions  

Wow

That is really unbelievable, if it’s true.

Please David Kahn, get Chris Wallace on the phone, NOW.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

And Mullins, or Nelly, or whoever the hell is running the ship over in Oakland.

Can we find some way to get Anthony Randolph AND OJ Mayo for Al? I’d get on board with that.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Finally...

a deal for Al that I could get behind.

by TimAllen on Feb 18, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Time to hit the trade machine. I’ll even figure it out so Wallace doesn’t have to strain himself.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

How bout this deal

Does this Link work?

Unfortunately I think Canis Hoopus would blow up if Love and Mayo were united on the same team.

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

DARN...the deal was...

Memphis gets…Ellis
GS gets: Big Al
MN gets: Mayo, S.Hunter, and Haddadi

Worked on the trade machine.

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Not the GS uses a lot of common sense

but is Al their type of player? And if so, get us Randolph or Biedrins in the deal as well.

by PoorDick on Feb 18, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

He's the antithesis of a Nellie player, and therefore the epitome of one

The whole Don Nelson mojo has to do with acquiring the wrong guys, cultivating them, and then alienating them. He’s more and more efficient at getting through that cycle, too. Ask Cap’n Jack.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 18, 2010 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I tried to make a deal and realized I had GSW giving up Ellis, Randolph and Maggette. This is gonna take some time.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Is that supposed to be a link to a deal? It just takes me to the trade machine. I think there’s an option somewhere to create a link to the deal.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Hehe, titles aren’t clickable links. I think the link works, although apparently the trade machine is bugged whereby you can’t load a link to a 3-team deal in IE 6.0. Yeah, my company’s up to date on technology.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Andy G

If we did this deal I would literally crap my pants. It appears that this trade deadline has ruined any chance of me being remotely productive today.

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...

but I think Kahn is in pretty deep on this “no major moves will be made at this deadline.”

Although he always leaves himself a little wiggle room.

by Andy G on Feb 18, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Mind spelling it out for those of us stuck in the 90’s technologically?

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Andy G's deal

To Mem: Monta
To GS: Big AL
To Min: Mayo, A. Randolph, and S. Hunter

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Ha. That’s the deal I posted below. Just go ahead and don’t clink my link :) Great minds, Andy, great minds.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh wait, nevermind, mine’s a little different. It gets GSW out of Magg’s deal by utilizing Memphis’ cap deficit and sending them Hunter.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow!

I can’t believe there’s a package of players worthy of Al Jefferson. And it doesn’t even include LeBron James?!! :)

by DougW on Feb 18, 2010 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Seriously? Smilies don’t make it less a dickish comment.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

It’s funny how people so hyperbolic in their own comments about Jefferson are also so quick to point it out in others.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 18, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m not sure if you’re referring to me or Doug, but I think it’s pretty obvious that we’re just playing around with dream scenarios whereby Kahn pulls a fast one on some hapless GM’s. No one has ever bothered to ask my real thoughts on Al’s trade value.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 7:32 PM CST up reply actions  

please share your real thoughts!

Hopefully they are dramatically more plausible than your not one, but two potential young all-stars on rookie deals “dream deal” scenario.

Too “dickish”?

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions  

You know, it would almost be worth sitting through 4 years of mediocre production at 12 mill a year from Deng just to see you guys realize how bad a move that would be. Luckily you aren’t GM, so we won’t have to endure that scenario.

The problem with quantifying Al’s value is that the trading market is in constant flux. I can sit here and speculate on his value, but it all depends on the teams involved and their situations. Personally, I think that If you’re going to dump Al and set the rebuild farther back, at least go all in and get cap relief and some players with potential, either straight up or via draft picks.

To me, swapping him for another highly paid non superstar just doesn’t make sense because we could get a guy like that just by using cap space and sweetners. Given that we still need a star, I’d talk to a young up and coming team who could use a post threat like Sac or OKC and try to work out a deal that has us getting picks/players with potential coming back.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 19, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

so, basically, no real thoughts

Just more wishes.

We had one known legit offer for Al, and it was an offer for Deng…an overpaid, and good but not great player…plus change (Thomas). That is what the market is willing to pay.

The entire NBA know Jefferson is on the block, and a better offer did not emerge.

I am not making this up. This is reality. Welcome to it.

by DougW on Feb 19, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

So, what real thoughts am I supposed to have when one deal has been leaked? Are you assuming that nothing else was ever discussed simply because you didn’t hear about it?

And if that’s the current state of the market , then it only reinforces my point that there is no reason to move Al RIGHT now, unless you think Al’s current value is as high as it’s ever going to be. If that’s the case, then I simply disagree.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 19, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

OK here’s my deal:

Link

Of course, GSW taking on Al makes little sense, but they would be saving money by getting rid of Maggs and they hate talented youngsters, so this helps them out in those areas. If they ever decide to get rid of Nelly and play a half-court system, they’ve got a solid core with Al, Curry, Biedrins, Morrow etc.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Both deals...

would be amazing. Do it Kahn!

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Since I’m GM, I’d be willing to throw in the Utah pick, or probably even the CHA pick if they played hardball, to either team.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 18, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

I would even give...

The Utah pick to Memphis and the Charlotte pick to Golden State. Wowzers, if we could get Mayo and Randolph in one trade?

Rubio/Flynn/Sessions
Mayo/Brewer/Ellington
Randolph/Brewer
Love/Randolph/Pekovic
Cousins(?)/Pekovic/Hollins

So much versatility and talent in that line-up. Too good to be true.

by LoveTo on Feb 18, 2010 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

The fact that Kahn is flying to New York to talk to Darko

makes it seem unlikely that he’s even on the phone today. We’ll see I guess…

by Blakeley on Feb 18, 2010 11:43 AM CST reply actions  

He's obviously...

..going there to hammer out a Mobley for Blount and the rights to Rubio deal. Duh.

'It's just noise coming out of an ugly scientist.' Michael Scott

by CaliWolf on Feb 18, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

His mobile telephony device is faulty?

Won't someone think of the ping pong balls?

Kurt Rambis - stop this insanity!

by Auswolf on Feb 18, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I am shocked

that there is no recipe for Korean food today. That was one of the Korean foodiest games of the year.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 18, 2010 1:01 PM CST reply actions  

Phase 3 of 5

SnP…in your trade round-up I’d love to see an analysis of Kahn’s 5 step approach (draft, free agency, trade deadline, draft, free agency).

While I think Kahn’s deals have been solid, only one (Miller/Foye for #5) is the kind that can start to turn this franchise around. So I’m certainly hoping Kahn makes a bigger splash during the last two phases of his declared rebuilding project than in the first three.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 18, 2010 4:33 PM CST reply actions  

Agree with Eric in Madison - Again & Again & Again
Still, I must admit I have trouble understanding the all the angst over breaking up a team that is 13-42.

Indeed

But yikes. We suck. Nobody is untouchable, and wanting to change things up doesn’t strike me as an unreasonable position.

Oh Yeah!

I suppose what frustrates me is that first, we suck, and that 2nd, there were several posters who called the Deng/Thomas offer a "joke" or an "insult," which in my view it clearly is not. It’s not unfair value, really.

I suppose I see what seems to me overvaluing of our own players in such a way that makes no sense to me when a team is 13-42. Even you describe Deng as an 18-7 guy on mediocre teams…well, OK. But how would we then describe Jefferson? Even giving him injury credit, I could fairly say: he’s a 22-11 guy on terrible teams who neither passes nor defends well.

And the Choir says AMEN!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 18, 2010 5:48 PM CST reply actions  

If Al does get traded, it will be interesting to see if we get more than Deng + Thomas.

Wasn’t the first KG offer from Bulls: Chandler, Deng + #2 pick in 2006 draft (Aldridge).

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 18, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Darko sounds like a completely broken man

Strib story

He apparently has no interest in NBA basketball anymore, and even Kahn makes him sound terrible. I suspect the chances he helps are tiny, and the chances he stays beyond the last day of the season are even smaller.

Words like “distraught,” and “traumatized” are used.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 19, 2010 7:43 AM CST reply actions  

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