Big problems and small sample sizes
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 21, 2010 9:06 PM CST
441 comments
-37 and +35. These are the plus/minus numbers of Al Jefferson and Darko Milicic against the Oklahoma City Thunder. Now we have been over (and over and over and over) the dangers involved in using +/- stats in small sample-size situations but it doesn't take a whole lot to see that while there may be a bunch of noise in a single-game setting vis-a-vis the effectiveness of using +/- as a proper gauge of performance, but there's not THAT much noise.
The big take away from the game against the Thunder is a simple question: What other team's best player would be yanked down the stretch for an out-of-shape guy that was buried on the Knicks' bench for the vast majority of the season? If Al's knee is that bad, he shouldn't be playing. There is a difference between playing hurt and playing injured and while Al's offense clearly isn't as explosive as it was pre-injury, can anyone really say that his defense has changed that much? When everything is taken into account, the Wolves' highest paid player was just yanked for Darko Milicic and the Wolves had a much better chance at winning when their newest addition was out there with Kevin Love.
The Wolves also had a much better chance at winning when Ramon Sessions was out there with Love. Two way players matter and this team has a serious deficiency in that category. During Darko's 19 minutes on the court, Wolves fans were treated to the best interior defense this team has seen since KG. Let that sink in for a moment. Right now the Wolves' best rotation probably looks something like this:
- Sessions/Flynn
- Brewer/Ellington
- Wilkins/Gomes
- Love/Gomes/Jefferson
- Milicic/Jefferson
When healthy, Jefferson is a magnificent offensive player in the low block. When healthy, he is also an atrocious defender. What if Darko plays effectively during the remainder of the season? Do we really need an up-close-and-personal example of how Love + a capable defender > Jefferson + Hollins? Do we really need to see how a legit 7 footer with modest passing skills is a more capable addition to the Triangle than a guy who can go nuts in the low left block?
These are the questions that could be answered with some interesting data by the end of the season. While we have just under 20 minutes of Darko game action to look at, I think the most unsettling thing here is that most Wolves fans have a general feeling that it won't take a whole lot to show what Love + a competent big could do compared to any sort of Jefferson pairing in the offense that Rambis has installed. We kind of know what the answers to these questions will be but do we really want to know?
Getting back to the whole two-way player thing, Corey Brewer is starting to string together a series of games where he deserves serious consideration as the team's best player and emotional leader. During the 3rd quarter Brew kept the Wolves in the game with spirited play at both ends of the court. When he shoots the ball, there is no longer a collective gasp from those in attendance. We expect that he'll make open shots. We expect that he'll finish a majority of his kamikaze drives to the rim. Whatever this coaching staff has done with the guy, they have done something right.
Perhaps this thought is the most important thing that has happened to the Wolves this season. Love and Brewer have shown great improvement. Wayne Ellington has also improved; showing himself to have wonderful two way potential off the bench. One of the things that struck me the most about David Kahn's approach to this team were his comments about player development being a key selling point for potential free agents. He wants the player experience in Minnesota to be a good thing that players tell one another about. Not only with player development, but with the way the team treats guys who are seeking buyouts or better situations. On this front, the Wolves have themselves a wonderful project in Darko. He clearly has had his issues in the league and no matter if he stays or goes, if the Wolves can be viewed as handling the situation as best as they can, maybe that will go a long way for their ability to attract free agents and foreign players down the line.
Wrapping this thing up, the Wolves ran up against a superior opponent last night and they showed signs of life when their bench rotations were allowed to rack up significant minutes. The big problem they have vis-a-vis the Thunder is that they simply don't have anyone as good as Kevin Durant or Russell Westbrook on their roster. Talent matters just as much as two way play and the Wolves simply didn't have the horses to run with the Thunder for 48 minutes. Will David Kahn be able to use the team's considerable assets to make up this talent gap? Will players like Brewer, Love, Sessions, and Ellington continue to improve? Will Jefferson ever be able to balance his awesome offensive game with his equally awesome defensive and team-based deficiencies? We'll just have to wait and see.
BTW: What did everyone think of the team's interactive broadcast? We had many commenters who had their questions answered by Papa Glen and the POBO. Let us know what you thought of the production.
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I enjoyed the hell out of the broadcast.
No commercials, Sludge and Lake, that annoying guy shilling the new ticket plan. They put together a lot of good clips, especially the All Star Weekend interviews. I was disappointed that they reused the Rambis interview from the start of the broadcast during halftime. Also, looking at the gamethread, I’m assuming the chat with Taylor and Kahn was a series of Paul-Allen-Interview-Softballs that really didn’t give much insight into anything.
The best part, though, was Kahn with Tom and J Pete. I can’t say I’ve agreed with all of his moves, but he really won me over when he groaned loudly at a terrible shot Gomes took in the 2nd. His honesty about the things Flynn and Love need to work on was great to hear.
I really hope they do this again.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Feb 21, 2010 9:09 PM CST reply actions
I also enjoyed the time Kahn was involved in the announcing
especially when he would spend two minutes discussing something and the moron deciding which text message to discuss would relay a question about what Kahn just finished discussing.
All in all, even with the promos for season ticket sales, this should be an annual event. It was actually kind of neat seeing them give a little air time to people who renewed tickets for next season, they deserve the kudos.
Like I said in the game thread...
…I felt Gomes was way way worse than Al tonight. Not even a contest.
Hey, I said that first!
And naturally, I agree 100%. :)
Question
Would you consider Russell Westbrook a Superior Player to Kevin Love. He’s a pretty good stat-stuffer for a point good and clearly a terrific athlete. At the same time- he’s a ugly shooter surrounded by perhaps one of the Top 5 players in the game. Granted tonight he was awesome.
Defense
He rebounds his position well and is one of their pillars defensively. Plus he can log 35 minutes per game, whereas I’m not sure Love is in shape to do that without it affecting his play. Right now, I’d give the nod to Westbrook, but just barely.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Westbrook...
…has the edge with hid two way play and length/athleticsm at his position. He’s a brutal matchup at both ends of the court.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 21, 2010 9:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Perspective from a Thunder fan.
It’s pretty close. I think the minutes and health (Russ seems to be made of steel) would tip the balance for me. But there are so so few bigs that are able to provide what Love does; he’s a much rarer commodity, imo, than a poor shooting, super athletic slasher.
They're both fascinating players
They both do things that most players at their positions just aren’t capable of. Really versatile too. Freaks would be a decent description.
Hell no.
Westbrook is just a souped up version of Jonny, admittedly with much better defense.
I can’t knock his assist rates as much anymore, but his combination of inefficient scoring + high turnovers means he’s regularly hurting his team in terms of two of the four factors. Not to mention my personal philosophy that the negative effect of poor shooters on their teammates’ production isn’t fully reflected by conventional stats. We all remember his occasional 24/7/10 line, but his overall stats are quite mediocre because he’s very inconsistent. Too often, he puts up the 4/15 shooting with 7 TO’s line that is conveniently forgotten.
Speaking of conveniently forgotten, it’s amazing how much credit Presti gets for drafting Westbrook. With the fourth pick on the draft, he reached for the 12th rated prospect, and yes, he was right that Westbrook is better than the 12th best player from that draft, but he’s not the 4th best either. Why should he get credit when the safe pick, Brook Lopez, would have been way better?
That team would be terrifying...
… with a legit young big.
Good point
I have to say I was puzzled by the pick. He’s turned out to be pretty good, but I think the Thunder would have been way better off with a big.
And we still haven't mentioned the worst part
Not that you can really hold Presti to blame since he couldn’t have predicted the future, but if the Thunder take Lopez instead of Westbrook, they’ve still got a hole at starting PG. Then when the next draft rolls around, instead of reaching on James Harden to fill a need at SG because they don’t need a PG, they can take the best player available, one Ricky Rubio. What’s more, his salary slot would allow him to come over right away.
How scary would the Thunder be if they had Durant/Lopez/Rubio right now?
Yes, to me there’s no question. I guess you could argue that it’s close right now, but Westbrook’s ceiling is immeasurably higher.
Check out his numbers in February: 19.6/9.7/7.7 with 2.5 TO’s, shooting 47.8 % from the floor. Yikes.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Although yes, his overall efficiency from the floor is a huge negative. But if he figures that out at all, I think he easily becomes a better player than Love. Love is a great, dependable player will give you solid, damn near all-star level play for his whole career, but Westbrook could be something else. I’m thinking a bigger, stronger Rondo if he can get his shot selection figured out.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I caught myself screaming...
“Put Darko back in! NOW!!!”
I, honestly, do not think there is any reason to hold back enthusiasm. Defense is all hustle. There is no reason, that I can think of, for Darko to not do well. If he gets 10 ppg and 8rpg I will be so excited, I can not tell you. He plays DEFENSE on the INTERIOR! I honestly was on the edge of my seat the entire time he was on the court.
I'm glad the Wolves are giving him a chance.
The guy has never really gotten consistent minutes other than his time in Orlando playing alongside Dwight. Consequently, Darko produced
Also, something that really stood out to me that didn't get mentioned it...
….how well Love and Darko moved the ball together on the court. It was almost like euroball out there with those two.
Which, BTW, would be a nice little selling point for a certain Ricky Rubio, no?
That was my biggest impression, too..
That pair really seemed to have some chemistry, far more than Love and Jefferson have ever shown.
And man, was it refreshing to see a real seven-footer actually position himself well defensively.
Darko's backdoor pass
to Wilkins made me jump out of my seat. The guy is clearly talented. I cant wait to see him once he gets in actual game shape.
It's instinct
You can run drills, you can coach effort, you can play hard every minute of every game. But the great defenders in the league? They get defense at a subconscious level, and Darko gets it at a subconscious level. I mean, he’s out of shape, he’s not very happy, he hasn’t played in three months. He gets out on the court and suddenly we look like the freakin Bobcats on defense.
And that’s the biggest thing I think we’re going to see, because like S-n-P said, we have not had a big man who instinctively knows how to defend since KG left. To the point that a lot of Wolves fans have seemingly forgotten what that’s like or how important it is.
Question
If Darko goes back to Europe and we get pick #3, is Aldrich in play? That seems high to me, but one of these years we need to suck it up and draft a real Center.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
In conjunction with moving Al, maybe
We need a wing and a big man who can play defense. If that big man is Aldrich, great. If it’s somebody else, great.
I think so
He’s not my preference, but I’m sure he’ll be considered. We definitely need to bite the bullet and get a center somehow, that’s for sure.
I think he's in play.
Not anywhere close to saying I think he’s the pick there, but this season the evidence has continued to mount against Jefferson-Love to the point that a real center is now no less a need than a scoring wing.
What that really tells me though is, man, I hope we get a top-two pick.
He's been
banking “plus ones” for a long time, waiting for the right comment.
I bet you regret giving yours out all willy nilly now, don’t you.
If we do
and pick Wall or Turner, then I can definitely see Kahn leveraging his assets to try to move up and nab Aldrich. I know it’s yet another two rookies that become rotation players, but what other options are there? Brendan Haywood is staying in Dallas. He ain’t coming here.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions
So...
Pekovic, Al, Love, Darko, Gomes, Aldrich at PF/C? Assuming we use Al to move up and get rid of Gomes, is Pek, Love, Darko, Aldrich a 4 man rotation?
As an aside, we become the whitest team in the NBA if this happens, right?
Not as white as....
when Rubio comes over and we get Rudy at SG.
As long as they don't jump the NBA to the
All-American Basketball League. This is not a joke. I repeat, this is not a joke. God, save us all.
ATLANTA, Jan. 21 (UPI) — A former pro wrestling promoter in Georgia says he’s looking to start up an all-white pro basketball league.
The Augusta (Ga.) Chronicle reported Don “Moose” Lewis announced he is launching the All-American Basketball Alliance. He says he hopes the Atlanta-based league will have a dozen teams in the South and begin play in June.
“Only players that are natural born United States citizens with both parents of Caucasian race are eligible to play in the league,” Lewis said in a statement.
That’s right: N(o blacks, no foreigners.
“There’s nothing hatred about what we’re doing,” Lewis told the Chronicle. “I don’t hate anyone of color. But people of white, American-born citizens are in the minority now. Here’s a league for white players to play fundamental basketball, which they like.”
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Just Aldrich and Love
Pek, Darko and Rubio are anti-freedomites
I just could not believe this
the first time I read it. I would think everyone associated with the city of Atlanta would be completely ashamed and move to disband this garbage.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Feb 22, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I think the city and citizens of the New South
are certainly distancing themselves from this. Perhaps their slogan should be “White men can’t jump, but they can play fundamental basketball.” Surprised Glenn Beck hasn’t picked up on this yet. Would love to see a lachrymose pitch for the AABA in front of his infamous blackboard, oops, I mean whiteboard.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
This is potentially illegal
From what I heard, it’s not clear whether it passes the test of not being discriminatory.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 22, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
Fortunately
the AABA will never see the light of day. That said, Moose’s rhetoric is truly frightening and brings to the surface many latent anxieties about the ever-changing American demographic.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
For the record
there was only one geographic area that voted worse for Obama than Kerry. Someone laid a map of how people classified their ancestry next to it and there was on area that exactly matched that piece of the US.
While most of the US would classify themselves German, Scandinavian, French, etc, this stretch simply classified their ancestry as American. I believe it was the interior south just south of the Mason-Dixon but north of where the “non-Caucasians” outnumber the “real Americans.” How sad is that?
My guess is that the “south” is this same area.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
I'm guessing
they are not native Americans. I saw Samuel Huntington (of “clash of civilization” fame) on Book TV once argue that the fundamental identity of America was white and Protestant, and that this identity was being seriously undermined. Avuncular looking professor from Harvard spouting this. It’s not just the South only.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
the assumption
is that Wall/Turner go 1/2, respectively.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 21, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
Conventional wisdom says if the Wolves get the #1 pick
they take Wall. Hard to argue, but considering they have Rubio you have to wonder if it would be better to move down to #2 and take Turner, then use assets to get #4 and take Aldrich. It could be a pretty good team, just need a dynamic wing which could possibly be acquired with Jefferson.
I am really torn on what to do if we get the #1 pick....
Almost to the point I’d rather us just get the #2 pick outright and not have to deal with making a decision between Wall and Turner
I hate feeling that way because it is so
illogical. Yet, I keep reminding myself it is ultimately about building a winning team, not piling up assets (or PGs).
That's illogical.
You take John Wall. I think that’s the conundrum the Kings would face though with Evans and Wall. It’s a good problem to have, but a solution needs to come out of that decision process nonetheless.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
Except that Evans...
… is a two, Wall is a one. Eventually you all will come to accept that.
At the end of the day, Wall
is the same size at Mayo and much more athletic. He can shoot too, so you draft him and just put them both out there. The triange doesnt’ require a designated role other than wing and big. I take Wall 10 times out of 10. But would be content with Turner at #2.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
I think the answer comes down to
what is a better backcourt, Rubio/Wall or Rubio/Turner. Obviously talent is the former, but the size and overall game of the latter is intriguing.
BTW
If that decision has to be made, regardless who they take, this will be a fun team to watch in a few years!
yeah
kind of hard to mess that up. You can make a mistake and still be just fine.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Uh, I don't think Turner is available at 3
Cousins has too many question marks to be picked that high, but we’ll see. He is really talented.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
UK
I gotta say, that whole UK team looks really undisciplined. I’m still for taking Wall over Turner, but this isn’t like Cal’s Memphis team that had mature players with clearly-good heads on their shoulders. Wall and Cousins both look immature at times. Watching them on Saturday, I’m not expecting Kentucky to win it all. I thought maybe Calipari could get them going by tournament time, but they don’t look any better now than at the beginning of the year.
No way do you take Cousins over Turner.
But do you do Cousins over Aldrich?
I would in a heartbeat for OKC, but I think it depends on how much you trust your organization to nurture / take care of a potential head case.
I dunno about Cousins
He’s productive, no doubt, but he is pretty undisciplined and immature. And I’m always skeptical of guys who go from being a no-name to a top5 mock pick their freshman years. Freshmen are so closely scouted coming out of high school these days…if Cousins is really as good as his production and stock would suggest, I find it really hard to believe no one knew about him before the year began.
As someone who was talking about him
before the college season began, I’d have to disagree about your last few statements there.
he was pretty well known
I don’t know about the headcase stuff-I’ve heard nothing and every time I ask nobody can actually tell me what the problem is.
But I’ve seen a lot of their games and I’ll say this: he isn’t just a brute. He’s big and strong, but for a freshman in college, he has some pretty savory foot work, and a good touch around the basket.
He isn’t super explosive, that’s the downside. I’m not saying I would absolutely take him 3, but I think people have this vision in their heads about what he is that isn’t really accurate.
by Eric in Madison on Feb 21, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
I’ve mostly just heard second-hand things about Cousins’ attitude. It gets brought up on every telecast of UK games. Vitale was talking about it, last night.
That story came up quick on a Google search. Sounds like DeMarcus blasted a Louisville player before their game, and was lucky to only get a T — and not an ejection. The writer seems to think this is common behavior for Cousins.
Whenever I watch UK, he looks like a jerk on the court. See the latest “call me” signs he does to opposing crowds — I don’t know the story behind that, but it’s another example of him not knowing how to shut his mouth.
Just saying, there isn’t usually this much talk about a college players’ attitude. I doubt it is there by accident, and his talent isn’t great enough to overcome a bad attitude with other good big men on the board.
In the couple of UK games I've watched this year...
….Cousins has had a really difficult time controlling his temper. Like, at a Rasheed Wallace level. The guy is always mouthing off at someone for something.
Thanks for the information
Interesting. Whenever I watch them, my impression of him is one of a fairly intense player who efforts pretty well, which is often a problem for young big men.
by Eric in Madison on Feb 21, 2010 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
My first impression of him
was that he pouted every time Calipari tried to coach him. He made a couple really stupid plays in the first game I saw and both times he got yanked right away and pouted and ignored Cal. Seems to have improved at this at least though.
There was also an alleged incident at South Carolina
and an on court incident where he could have caused a lot of harm to a prone player on the ground. And in general he seems pretty volatile on the court.
But he’s also flat out dominant right now as a freshman and has true center size.
First team Parade All-American/First Team McDonalds All-American
It was a huge deal when he left UAB for Memphis and then Memphis for UK.
Hmm, maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention
I never heard a thing about him until a month into the season, and never saw his name on any mocks until January
I''ll never understand this
You asserted he was some typer of no-name prospect and that was a reason to be wary of him (despite that reasoning itself being specious). A whole bunch of people tell you that indeed he was pretty well known and you claim to have never seen mocks of him until January when he was on them a lot earlier than that. He was the consensus third best prospect coming out of HS in 2009
http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2009/
I don’t think I have ever interacted with someone who so freely makes up information
So he didn't notice the name
cut him a bit of slack at least.
undeserved charge.
oceanary does a lot of homework for this blog.
Oceanary makes up a lot of things to fit a narrative
Sorry but thats been plain for months now.
He didn’t assert that he had never heard of Cousins (which again would be nearly impossible for anyone following HS recruiting at all); he asserted that he was in fact a no name who burst on to the scene out of nowhere as a freshman. Both of those things are demonstrably false.
You're right
I will personally apologize for Oceanary for not being perfect. You’ve been on his case for weeks now and I’ve barely read anything from you that wasn’t in response to Oceanary. It’s one thing to correct an error, and another to beat a dead horse into oblivion.
I don't care about the apology
I wish front pagers on a blog wouldn’t just freely make up information and then when caught doing so make no attempt to correct it.
Wow you're so right....
…. you should be doing the weekly write-ups for CH from now on. Can’t wait to read those :p
Seriously cut the guy some slack.
Umm, no
I don’t even read his weekly write ups because of his lack of interest in accuracy in his other posts.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. They are not, however, entitled to their own facts.
Ok we all get your opinion....
…. but the multiple attacks are completely unwarranted. You act like he kicked your dog or something.
Just let him be
He has a vendetta against me because I’m not Kevin Love’s #1. You can count the number of posts he makes not in response to something I post on one hand
No, my problem with you
is that you routinely make things up to fit a narrative. Then when you are caught making things up (whether it be here about Cousins, elsewhere about Love or in that embarrassing fan post where you cavalierly and repeatedly lied about PER) he take umbrage with anyone who points out you are dissembling.
And nothing discourages you from doing it time and again
Like I said...
…I didn’t see Cousins mentioned in any significant news prior to this season. If I missed something, I missed it. I wasn’t trying to spin anything with that comment
Sigh
So, you asserted a fact about something (how prominent of a recruit/prospect Cousins was) without actually knowing how prominent of a recruit/prospect Cousins was? That’s a pretty excellent summation of my problems with your posts.
THUNDERDOME
TWO MEN ENTER.
ONE MAN LEAVES.
TWO MEN ENTER.
ONE MAN LEAVES.
TWO MEN ENTER.
ONE MAN LEAVES.
I think Thunderdome
should go into the Thunderdome. Now we just have to find something that is guaranteed to beat it.
Summation
sounds like the name of a condiment
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
To the best of my knowledge
I’m not omnipotent, and I admitted my fault on the matter. You’re really just arguing to argue now.
Its not about being omnipotent
its about not asserting things as facts when not understanding the first thing about a subject area.
Point is, if you followed the subject area that would establish how prominent a prospect Cousins was in an even cursory way you would have known he was a top prospect. Despite not following it you still asserting something about it. Much like in other posts of yours. You know when you just lied through your teeth in post after post about PER. Like that. I have a real problem with that.
I'M NOT SURE YOU NOTICED
BUT THE TWO OF YOU NEED TO THUNDERDOME, THUNDERDOME AND THUNDERDOME.
(translation: take it outside boys)
Ailuridae may be obsessive, spiteful, unrelenting...
but he’s not wrong.
If this were an isolated incident, cutting of slack would be warranted, but it’s somewhat of a trend. Obsessing over a minor screw-up is uncalled for, but becoming upset over an ongoing, unmodified character flaw is justifiable, if unsavory.
I will say...
that for someone who spends so much time on this site and talking/typing basketball, it’s pretty amazing that you could have had no idea who Cousins was. I mean, really???
by College Wolf on Feb 22, 2010 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
Unless he did kick your dog
then have at him.
I just missed his name, that's all
Usually those things show up in the headlines in places I watch for news
A pox on his house!
“I don’t think I have ever interacted with someone who so freely makes up information.” Just saying. It’s overstatement.
But you are right, he probably missed this one.
Not to rain on your parade...
But Oceanary carries a helluva lot more weight around here than you do. He and I disagree a lot on player evaluation, but he’s an awesome contributor.
I’ve yet to see a post from you that is thought provoking or non-confrontational.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Its not raining on my parade
As I am not trying to do anything here but at some point get Oceanary to stop making things up.
And, broadly, I don’t have a whole lot of interest in posting somewhere where a high volume (if not the highest volume) poster is so cavalier about lying.
He's not Cavalier
He’s Timberwolf
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
I quit that shit a couple years ago
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
Give me one "fact" he has stated...
That was untrue…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
The post in question
And I’m always skeptical of guys who go from being a no-name to a top5 mock pick their freshman years. Freshmen are so closely scouted coming out of high school these days…if Cousins is really as good as his production and stock would suggest, I find it really hard to believe no one knew about him before the year began.
That is nothing short of an out and out lie. Sorry. You can also go through the fan post about Love’s relative PER where he just tosses out easily correctable lies.
And your explanation makes no sense
Either you didn’t know the first thing about recruiting and didn’t look at any mock drafts in which case you shouldn’t post about how prominent a prospect a player is or and I suspect this is the case you did indeed know Cousins was a top prospect and were looking for any ammunition possible to criticize him.
And, no I have no idea why you need to make things up especially with a player like Cousins who has actual, obvious negatives.
Once again..
…I didn’t intentionally make anything up. I just must have missed something.
Honestly if you continue this after I’ve basically said sorry three times, I’m going to start flagging your posts for Wyn. He explicitly asked us to not do this.
That explanation doesn't hold water
Sorry. And flag away. Or, alternately, just stop making things up.
Where is John Doe
when you need him?
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Commented above.
They’re both right and both wrong, each in his own way.
Oceanary was wrong originally, but right to quickly acknowledge his mistake, and right that Ailuridae is going a little too far.
Ailuridae is right in his assertion that someone who clearly didn’t have a whole lot of knowledge of the subject shouldn’t be using such absolute language in describing it, and right that the consistent overstepping of one’s actual knowledge detracts from the Canis Hoopus experience, but wrong in his approach in that he has made himself a greater annoyance than the occasional Oceanary gaffe.
The Supreme Arbiter of Truthiness is tired. He prefers conflicts with a clear winner.
by John Doe on Feb 22, 2010 5:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I would gladly second the recommendation
of truce. I have no problem with Ailuridae fact checking Oceanry. It makes for more accurate discussions. But once it is pointed out, that’s enough.
This isn’t a venue to attempt to change someone’s behavior, just a forum for thoughtful exchange.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
OK...
Which part of this is the factual “lie.” And which part is simply a difference of opinion?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Huh?
The part where he asserts that Cousins was a no name prospect and if he were all that good someone would have known it before the season? Yeah, he just made that up out of whole cloth.
Cousins was the consensus third recruit out of high school last year. It would be like arguing that Xavier Henry were a no name player. Its just absurdly inaccurate.
So you're fighting a losing battle to establish...
That DeMarcus Cousins was a known prospect? Way to keep your eye on the ball.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I'm not fighting a losing battle
I’m accurately pointing out that someone is lying repeatedly. There is no “lose” there if you care about accuracy and honest discussion.
"no name" or not is subjective
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
No, its not
Not in any meaningful name. He was the third most acclaimed recruit in his class and a first team consensus All-American in every relevant list. Within the real of being a prominent recruit it is factually inaccurate (highly factually inaccurate) to assert that DeMarcus Cousins was a no name prospect.
Okay
If you’re REALLY concerned about this, take it up with another writer or an admin or someone else.
I mean, I generally disagree with a few posters here, but it doesn’t matter to me, so I let most of it go.
Its not about disagreement
As these aren’t matters of opinion. I don’t even bother touching his opinions because arguing differences of opinion with someone who doesn’t have a grasp on veracity or reality is pointless.
How are they not???
Matters of opinion?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Because they are just not.
If I asserted that John Wall were a no name prospect would that be a matter of opinion? Or that he had gills? Asserting that DeMarcus Cousins was a no name prospect is factually inaccurate. Highly so. Its actually impossible to believe that and no anything about prospects or recruiting in which case you should stop making things up about prospects and recruiting.
Its all pretty simple.
OK...
If you haven’t figured out how far off the reservation you are, here’s a simple question. Why do you care if Oceanary disagrees with you?
He and I disagree about Flynn and Love completely, yet somehow maintain a civil Canis Hoopis relationship. Try it sometime…it’s great.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I don't care if he disagrees with me
I care if he deliberately and repeatedly misrepresents reality to further his point. He does that all the time.
Its impossible to have a conversation when the other person has no regard for accuracy or truth.
SO how do you converse with him...
If he has exactly the same opinion of you?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
If someone here or on another Wolves baord
has a problem with my accuracy I would be astonished. It would be nearly impossible to have a problem with my making things up as I don’t, you know, just make things up.
Easy
You’re making things up about making things up.
No
I demonstrated pretty clearly here and elsewhere that Oceanary is very fast and loose with the truth. There is indeed no possible explanation for positively asserting that the number three high school recruit in America is a no-name prospect.
Yes
You invented a fact when you said he was the 3rd ranked high school recruit. Clearly thats your opinion and according to you opinions aren’t allowed.
Err no
http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2009/
Thats a straight averaging of the ranking of the 2009 HS class. I didn’t make up the rankings nor the concept of an arithmetic mean.
Interesting debate here actually
Is the average of opinions fact or opinion? I’d say it’s still just a lot of opinions taken for fact.
Exactly my point
The idea that you used an average makes it not a fact. So your whole argument against oceanary’s accuracy is based on something that you made up.
You're reaching.
Ailuridae’s argument was that Cousins was factually a top prospect, because he was, by the most comprehensive, objective measure of opinion, the 3rd ranked prospect.
Maybe it’s still an opinion that Cousins was precisely #3, but he was factually not a no name.
I still find it hard to believe that anyone who is a regular on this site
wouldn’t know who Cousins was lol…
by College Wolf on Feb 22, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
Hey
I invented going to the Thunderdome for his convenient generation of untrue facts. But you even got a retraction and apology that I don’t remember ever receiving, so I’d suggest letting it go.
There should be a fanpost....
…. called “ThunderDome” where posters can take this type of stuff.
I tried a few months ago...
Didn’t take…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I love this idea.
If two posters get too ridiculous, three Canis posters in agreement sends them directly to the Thunderdome: a Fan Post where they duke the issue out between themselves, assuring the rest of us that we don’t have to sift through the bullshit. I say we make this a Canis policy.
To be fair
this doesn’t seem like Oceanary’s fault here. He’s just a guy who made a simple mistake and now Ailuridae can’t let it go. Can’t blame Oceanary for that one.
Instead of Thunderdome, we need a timeout corner for posters like Ailuridae and DougW.
Have it your way, Toolman.
I didn’t want to pick a fight, but you insisted. You and me. Thunderdome time!
Timeout corner
Great idea. Works both as a sports metaphor and as a technique of parenting. Will there be chocolate milk, cookies, and a nap after TOs? How many TOs per thread? Will there be full TOs and 20 second TOs?
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
To be fairer
Neither one of them can let it go. On top of that, Ailuridae has a valid point about a pattern that is not being acknowledged by those rushing to defend Oceanary. I understand that Oceanary contributes a lot to this site, but its been pointed out several times that many of those contributions don’t adhere to the standards set forth by the community.
I agree with you.
I’ve noticed lots of inaccuracies… I just don’t waste my time pointing them out.
by College Wolf on Feb 22, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Oh yeah...
because I have made sooooo many time wasting comments in this thread.
by College Wolf on Feb 22, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Oceanary is the perfect understudy to Stop-n-pop
s-n-p was the most vocal supporter of an AL/Love frontcourt and how awesome and unstoppable it would be offensively and now he has snuck over to the “we need a big defensive center” camp (aka the “it was obvious from the start and we know what it takes to build a winning basketball team” camp) like he has been here the whole time.
Aliridae is clearly right, maybe a little obsessive and stalkerish, but right. Oceanary saying Cousins was a nobody coming of high school with absolution is like saying rocks are liquids, not solids. A direct contradiction to the truth.
Just admit that Alirudae is right so you can get on with your lives.
But cannot rock become liquid?
cf. lava and magma.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
don't you guys have your own website..
…for bullshit like this? Use it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
If you guys want to say I intentionally made it up then fine
But I honestly never saw a thing about Cousins until like, mid December.
So you don't follow college recruiting?
Right? And in the future will stop making factual assertions about the prominence of a recruit, right?
Of course not.
Thanks for wasting
the last few minutes it took me to scroll thru this sh##. Thought I put the kids to be a couple hours ago.
I'm sorry I forced you to read these posts
I will release you from my control over your free will in the future.
DO you have any understanding of...
an online community???
Clearly, we can’t tell ourselves to avoid your senseless mumbling until AFTER we’ve read it.
However, as a selfless act for the rest of Canis Hoopus, I wil stay up and mock you for the rest of the night!!!
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Oh yeah...
The Long Islands are going down sweet tonight…and I will be up all night waiting for the next “clever” response.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
You're drinking Long Islands and you are planning on mocking someone else
Umm, thats not a good idea
Yet you're the one who has failed to make their point...
Instructive?
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I've made my point perfectly clearly
Its pretty simple to follow and its really not disputable. You just don’t like the tone and the inevitable conclusion -that another poster thinks so little of your knowledge of basic facts that he’s willing to repeatedly make things up
Absolutely nothing wrong with Long Islands.
If you don’t like them though Ailuridae, I suggest you stick with your Zima and wine coolers.
I have a fine understanding of an online community
And my posts on this issue aren’t community building in the short term but there is no other way within an online community (short of banning) to get a person to stop lying and making up facts that to repeatedly point out they are doing so.
It's fine if you want to respond to
the post I made, but you don’t need to rehash the fact you think someone is lying and making up facts…I read that opinion from you several times above, it just becomes a waste of time.
There is not an opinion that Oceanary is making up facts
That’s a fact and its plain as day.
I wonder how thin you can make these things
Wow!
Won't someone think of the ping pong balls?
Kurt Rambis - stop this insanity!
This is clearly this minimum width
So if your argument reaches this width, it is time to stop.
Won't someone think of the ping pong balls?
Kurt Rambis - stop this insanity!
Isn't the issue more that Cousins has shot up mock drafts
I heard of him, but he was a late-lottery or mid-round pick who gradually worked his way into the top 5 because his character issues are supposedly not as bad as people think.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 22, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Indeed, that's probably where Oceanary's assumption came from
and normally it would be a correct extrapolation to say the guy that was projected to go in the mid-20s was an unknown (using a very liberal definition of the word ‘unknown’). In this case, Cousins was a top recruit all along, and the mock draft boards for some reason had him really low early on even though everyone knew he was a much better prospect.
Agreed
At the beginning of the year I don’t recall him being mentioend in the same breath as the top draft picks at the PF / C position (Favors, Davis from NC, Aldrich) at the beginning of the year. And I’m pretty sure that’s not because his talent was in question but his attitude.
That's not quite what I'm saying.
He was well known as one of the top recruits in a lot of circles, but then several draft sites had him way lower for some reason. He might have been on a slightly tier than Favors and Davis, but it seemed like most people had him as a top 10 talent and for whatever reason it took the mock drafts a while to catch up to what everyone else knew all along.
I guess I don't understand
why a poster on a TWolves dominant blog would be criticized for not knowing about a college FRESHMAN until December?? I don’t think following high school recruiting is a requirement, and a person shouldn’t be criticized for not knowing about a freshman until he has played significant minutes.
I'm not really concerned about being criticized for it
Just the characterization that I intentionally lied when the truth is I just didn’t know.
But I do disagree with the concept that Cousins was being ranked low in mocks for no real explainable reasons. Mock sites have differing opinions, but they’re not collectively stupid. If they all had Cousins ranked near the bottom, there was probably a good reason for it, and it probably was his attitude and temper.
As an example, Lance Stephenson was, for a long time, considered basically John Wall’s equal, if not better, when they were in high school, but his attitude problems kicked in even before he graduated, and by the time it came to pick a college, no one wanted him, and now he’s not really even on the board in mock drafts.
There's a lot of terrible debating skill and civility being displayed in this thread
Essentially, you said something that isn’t quite true – in truth, Cousins was on the draft radar all year in the 1st round. Though it was not to your knowledge, I think the qualms people had with the statement lie in the perceived degree of certainty with which it was stated. Seems fair to me.
Nothing wrong with that, though. There’s a difference between an honest mistake of (easily forgivable) ignorance, and lying. Saying you lied is more absurd than your not knowing about DeMarcus’ draft stock. A more measured, polite response correcting you would have been perfect.
Ironically, the accusatory attacks about Oceanary’s ignorance are even more ignorant than his original misstep. Condescension is a pretty ugly attribute, if you ask me – and I have to hold myself back from showing it myself quite often. Just because we’re on the internet doesn’t excuse any sort of arrogance – in fact, it just makes it look worse.
If people were less concerned about making ad hominem attacks (or perceived ones) and being “right” while others are “wrong”, we could spend a lot more time discussing important things and the more interesting nuances of the game and the franchise.
by nja700 on Feb 22, 2010 8:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Very well put.
Tip of the hat. Generally the civility of the site and stratospheric level of discourse impresses greatly (though to one infrequent visitor, such a tenor smacks of a “girl’s tea party”).
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Agree with you, nja
I think we can all interact with each other here without starting holy wars over disagreements. I’m not going to take sides on this particular matter – Oceanary has made his apology – that’s good enough for me. I don’t always agree with him, but enjoy reading his posts (I feel the same about Simmons – don’t mean that in a bad way, O!).
As for me, I offer the following disclaimer concerning my posts:
1. It’s just my opinion, folks
2. I was a terrible HS basketball player
3. The closest I’ve come to being an NBA insider was riding in an elevator with Stewie, Gomes and Hollins
4. I have, in the PAST (ahem), inhaled (Yo, MAYN!)
5. I just can’t spell A’m’’A’r’’’E
6. I once voted for Dubya
Whew! Glad I got that off my chest!
Sort of agree
The closest I can to being an NBA insider was sitting in row 6 on some corporate tix. Also sat next to Cliff Robinson at the icy drink place at MOA (think it was called Fat Tuesdays). Wish that place was still there, not the best place in town but a different place to spend a couple hours and have fun. Stupid Bloomington do gooders got mad because they had a Mardi Gras night with adults only were some gals showed what they had for beads. They closed the place down because of a few women showing breasts, what a joke. Not like the same thing isn’t available nightly around town to those who are interested.
-1 to Bloomington
They tore down the Met for a mall. My dad got us box seats in 1980 for a Twins/Yankees game. What I remember most was that Reggie Jackson struck out 3 times – that man could curse with the best of ’em!
Another brush with NBA fame(?) – met Stacey King when he was named coach of the SF Skyforce several years ago. He told me that despite 3 championship rings with the Bulls, losing to Kansas in the ’88 NCAA title game still killed him 20 years later
I just found out the other night
that a buddy I work with is friends with Corey Brewer. Turns his and Corey’s girlfriends are best friends.
Also saw KLove at work after the recent Chicago game. Dude’s good at going incognito – wouldn’t have noticed him had he not been so tall. He looks just like a college kid, which of course he basically is. So easy to forget how young these guys are sometimes.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
by biggity2bit on Feb 23, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
oh ya
and my uncle once sat on a train next to David Robinson. Said he was huge, but super nice and friendly and well read on whatever was going on in the world at that time.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
by biggity2bit on Feb 23, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Well not that anyone cares anymore
But his issue wasn’t that you didn’t know, nor was he implying that you intentionally lied.
His problem was the manner in which you made the statement (“no one knew about him before the year began” versus “I hadn’t heard of him before the year began”). In his mind, you shouldn’t use such definite speech if you’re not actually particularly well-versed in the subject matter.
Admittedly, it’s in incredibly stupid argument to have had last so long, but if that’s the case, we can probably ridicule the situation on its own merits rather than misrepresenting it to make it appear more in your favor. Not trying to accuse you of anything or start anything, just saying.
Not that people still care
But his issue wasn’t that you didn’t know, nor was he implying that you intentionally lied.
His problem was the strength with which you made the statement (“no one knew about him before the year began” versus “I hadn’t heard of him before the year began”). In his mind, you shouldn’t use such definite speech if you’re not actually particularly well-versed in the subject matter. It’s not an accusation of purposeful lying, but rather emphatically confident guessing.
Admittedly, it’s in incredibly stupid argument to have had last so long, but if that’s the case, we can probably ridicule the situation on its own merits rather than misrepresenting it to make it appear more in your favor.
I don't buy it
He called me a liar in like, 7 of his posts, and now you’re telling me that wasn’t his issue?
If it was about the way I worded it, he would have dropped the whole thing when I apologized.
Ctrl + F
Just did searches for “liar”, "lie ", “lied”, and “lies”. Only “lied” found matches in Ailuridae’s posts, and they were all referring to your posts on PER, which are a different issue that I probably shouldn’t touch.
Regardless of that, the distinction I’m trying to make is that he’s not accusing you of saying things you know to be false, but rather of saying things you believe to be true even when they sometimes aren’t. The former is lying, the latter is something else. It’s clear you weren’t intentionally writing something false about Cousins, as evidenced by your prompt retraction (which, unfortunately, was powerless to stop Ailuridae’s rampage).
Is it OK
to let this go now? I enjoy reading Oceanary’s pieces, and if I want to know more about a player I’ll go look it up myself. If anything his/(her?) pieces are a great departure point for a broader conversation and incredibly helpful in distilling the NBA landscape down into a quick 10-15 minute read.
What I don’t enjoy, and I think I probably speak for the vast silent masses on Hoopus, are having to slog through an inordinate amount of comments generated by a spat that really has not that much to do with the Timberwolves or the NBA and has a lot to do with whatever it is all y’all can’t seem to let go.
I think most of us don’t care if someone is claiming authority or hyperbolizing a little bit – that’s the nature of talking about sports. I assume everyone on here does it, with some making more of an effort to keep it in check while others just letting it fly. To summarize, I think this video sums up everything quite nicely.
So how ’bout them Gophers?
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
by biggity2bit on Feb 23, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Sure.
You know it’s funny, I almost made a Seinfeld reference in my last post. “Remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it.”
I was at the Gopher game on Sunday. Nice win.
Good question
I haven’t seen a lot of Cousins — when I have, he looks pretty good, but not necessarily a big “upside” guy with lots of athleticism or tremendous skill. Aldrich has great defensive ability and is a good passer and free throw shooter. Given what is written and observable on TV about Cousins’ attitude, I’d probably rather have Aldrich. Too many examples of hothead-types busting in pro sports.
If he shows progress in March, Derrick Favors might be taken ahead of each. I haven’t read anything about attitude concerns, and he has the size and athleticism to really have big upside in the pros.
As of right now
I’d still take Favors first. Can’t pass that much potential with already decent production. He has clearly taken a second-fiddle role on his team, but he has all the talent in the world to be number 1. It seems to me as if most people knock him for the exact opposite reason they knock Cousins. He is too responsible. And while there is a middle ground, I take him now and let Bill have his way with him (….)
Yeah
DraftExpress said a lot of his problems have to do with the team he’s on. They have horrible guards that can’t get the ball into the post effectively, and he’s playing alongside a very similar player(post-bound athlete with no shooting ability) in Gani Lawal. Basically he chose the wrong team for exploiting his strengths and exposing his weaknesses.
GTech has no guard play
None. It’s a huge problem for them. You can’t get away with servicable guardplay in college ball like you can in the NBA
You can't get away with it in the NBA either
Exhibit A: Minnesota Timberwolves
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not sure Donald Sterling is a human being. He had to have been manufactured by someone, possibly David Stern, so that one team could solely just make profit for the NBA while doing nothing good for themselves. -- Aykis 16
" I thought maybe Calipari could get them going by tournament time"
Uhhh . . . beggin’ the Colonel’s pardon, but aren’t they ranked 2nd in the country right now?
yeah,
but they aren’t playing any better than at the beginning of the year. With the top pro prospect and three other potential lottery picks, I thought they might look really special by mid-February.
ESPN had a college game on a while ago...
….where Calipari’s name came up at the broadcast table, and you could hear Bobby Knight was like, a split second from tearing Cal apart before he remembered he was on national TV
I saw that game too, funny stuff, I talk about this at work a lot, but isn’t Calipari just a great recruiter and only a mediocre coach?
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
I sure don't think he's a very good coach
He seems more concerned with the media image of how his team performs than how they actually perform. In situations where games are actually on the line, he makes some very questionable decisions.
He botched the title game...
by not calling timeout to tell his kids to foul (to avoid the Chalmers three.)
But, I must say: that Memphis team was an absolute powerhouse and it wasn’t just for talent. Rose was incredible and CDR & Dorsey were great veterans, but even talented top-ranked teams struggle in the tournament. Aside from the huge collapse that cost them the title game, they rolled through that tournament like no team in recent memory.
Long way of my saying I think Cal is a good, if not very-good basketball coach. Just look at his winning percentages everywhere he goes. He just happens to run a loose ship that leaves his old programs with NCAA sanctions.
Imagine Calipari impersonating Steve Urkel...
…and saying “Did I do that” every time he screwed over the credibility of a college athletic program.
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 22, 2010 12:04 AM CST up reply actions
Kentucky was just desperate
They take so much pride in winning….constantly criticized Tubby no matter what he did, then had it bite them in the ass when he left and the program tanked. Cal is a godsend as far as they’re concerned
Besides good bourbon and horses
there isn’t much else to be proud of in KY.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Cousins
and the wedding of them
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 22, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
Would that be
Demarcus Cousins? Oh, please, let’s not start again.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
It was in the Taiwanese National Enquirer
geesh, do you live under a rock?
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 22, 2010 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
In a cave actually
I can get car insurance no problem, but it’s too hard to chisel Mandarin into stone, so I never learned the language
Switch to bamboo
15 minutes could save you 15 chisels.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Too bad about your TV pilot.
I’m sure you’ll find work eventually.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Feb 22, 2010 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
"It's a post about nothing."
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 22, 2010 12:42 AM CST up reply actions
He also took a mediocre UMass team to the Final Four
That team was Marcus Camby, 2 nondescript 6’6 forwards, and 2 nondescript 6’2 guards. I think their only loss was to UK in the Final Four.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 22, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
or at least a legit center. I have been pushing for Aldrich on this site for months now (a point often rejected by other posters). Maybe he isn’t the right guy, but tonight shows how the team has been missing a legit inside presence.
I was astonished tonight seeing Darko standing next to Al and Love
Like, maybe it’s because my clearest previous memories of him were him standing next to Dwight Howard, but he looked like a skyscraper compared to the rest of the Wolves.
His combine numbers are 7’1" in shoes with a 7’5" wingspan….taller with more reach than Tyson Chandler.
I was also surprised by the size difference
BTW, my above comment about putting the kids to bed was intended for the other poster who wouldn’t let the subject drop.
The problem for Aldrich, like Big Al and K-Love is that he’s too slow laterally, we need a quicker 4 or 5 that can step out and guard those perimeter oriented quicker 4s like Jeff Green and LaMarcus Aldridge, I’m really surprised to see how quick Darko’s feet are, man that guy can step out and guard, exactly what we need.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
Darko
Ya, Darko’s got pretty good athleticism. All the stuff coming out about him at draft time was that he was a very mobile, very athletic big. There’s probably a reason why he said the player he thought he most resembled was KG.
Two other quick observations:
1) I remember one rebound towards the end of the first, maybe beginning of the second, where I thought the Thunder would get it and Darko just reached over the guy and ripped it away. My initial though was surprise, and then (immediately following the surprise) a growing recognition of how awesome it was to have a guy with size who could do that. Al and Love couldn’t have because they weren’t big enough to reach over, but Darko was. I did it.
2) Here’s a second helping of Small Sample Size Delight. Darko’s per36 numbers last night: 15 points, 15 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1.8 blocks.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
I know exactly which rebound you’re talking about in point 1), and it cracked me up. He simply reached up straight up and that was the end of it. Ibaka or Green or whoever was fighting him for it had no chance. It is truly amazing what size can do for you.
He may be a bust for the #2 pick, especially in THAT draft (I shudder at the pressure that put on him!), but the guy still has some legit talent. I am definitely keeping expectations low, but it’s not ridiculous to think that he could be persuaded to stick around if they make the situation comfortable enough for him and if he’s productive.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Do we honestly think...
… that we’re getting better production out of a mid-first pick? If Darko calms the eff down and signs for a reasonable contract, it could actually be a better situation than drafting some less skilled, less athletic, less experienced newbie. I really, really hope the next few months are good for this kid.
Joe Smith was probably considered a flop as well
but overcame the high expectations and had a decent career, if the career is compared to the whole league and not top picks. Darko could be that kind of guy if he wants it, may be too late, or the Wolves will find out he just never really wanted the career, just the money.
I guess I’d rather have them figuring this out than having Brian Cardinal for two more months.
Only saw the last 15 minutes of game time...
But even if they can’t do commercial-free, the other parts were good. Just read the chat transcript, and it was a lot of softballs, but Kahn 4th quarter was good. I disagree with anyone who calls him condescending because his personality is very self-deprecating, and he doesn’t fly off the handle. It’s probably a good thing that our GM isn’t publicly declaring a disinterest in the nuts-and-bolts of the job any more.
As for the game, the main difference was effort between the first and second units. Jefferson and Gomes just weren’t bringing the same energy that Darko was. I agree with Oceanary — Gomes’ effort is much less excusable. This team is more competitive if he’s into the game, yet he’s never been consistently into the game. He’s not talented enough to coast on some nights. Jefferson’s obviously hurt, and he needs to do a better job of playing when hurt, but Gomes should realize that he’s playing for his job. This is asked about Flynn all the time, but what does Gomes bring to this team when his shot’s not falling? Contrary to what people say, he’s not a glue guy — Wilkins is a glue guy. Darko could be a glue guy. Gomes was a guy with the confidence and arrogance of “the man” because he was in college. In this league, he’s a late-second-round pick who’s overpaid. Okay. Rant over.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 21, 2010 9:35 PM CST reply actions
Gomes is absolutely useless if his shot isn't falling
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Which is why he belongs on a contender
That way he can park his ass in the corner and pop open jumpers while the stars slash, get double-teamed, rebound, block shots, etc. He’s great at open catch and shoot jumpers. He also plays relatively mistake-free basketball. But our squad needs more than that from his position.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
Well, he could be on the bench as early as next year
So would you keep him if we got Turner?
No
He doesn’t fit our vision of being an up tempo team. He’s a plodder that belongs on a team like Cleveland. There are some decent combo forwards like Damion James, Stanley Robinson, and Quincy Pondexter that we can use a later pick to help fill the gap. And all of these guys are far more explosive athletically than Gomes. Granted, they will go through the rookie learning curve and won’t > than Gomes right away, but they all have higher ceilings.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
I would keep him
He may be slightly overpaid but kinda along the same lines as what rascal was saying he is a good player to have. A spark off the bench. And considering all of the rookies we’ll have on the team we’ll need some “veteran” players.
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know if he's even a 9th man on a contender
His shooting isn’t on consistently enough.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 21, 2010 9:54 PM CST up reply actions
But if left open, he hits his shots
He would get far more wide open shots on a contender than with us. Often times he’s forced to jack up highly contested shots on our squad, which isn’t his gig.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 21, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
Not really
I’d like to see stats on this, but he gets open looks and still doesn’t make them at. This is based on observation only, but he’s been streaky either way.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 21, 2010 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
Game Log
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gomesry01/gamelog/2010/
Compared to Piranha.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2010/
Looks like a similar # of games between 10-40 minutes (within 10, at least), but at a glance, Love is much more consistent with the scoring and rebounding numbers.
As long as observations are admissable
(because I don’t have data or stats to back this take up, only anecdotes)
It sure seems like a lot of guys who weren’t seen as anything special can become feared shooters on contenders. We knew Anthony Parker was a good shooter with Toronto, but now he’s up there fighting for the league lead. Delonte West had the same thing happen last year. Jason Williams is suddenly a lights out 3 point shooter in Orlando. Ron Artest is shooting well above his career average. The most powerful example: even our very own Sasha was somehow able to make it as a three point specialist one year in Cleveland’s offense.
Long story short, put me in the category of people who think Gomes would be a better shooter playing on a contender.
Agreed
We’d really need Synergy Sports data to settle it. The hypothesis is that Gomes is a damn good catch and shoot jump-shooter when he doesn’t have someone like Kevin Durant in his face. On a team like Cleveland or L.A., he’d have far more uncontested jump shots, which would likely lift his FG% up a few points.
Ultimately I don’t like him for our squad because we need our wings and combo forwards to be thoroughbred athletes, not plodding jump shooters. As long as Kahn wants to get up and down the floor and we’ve got players like Love and Jefferson around, we need every other position to be filled with speed, length, and athleticism. Gomes is none of these.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 22, 2010 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
The true test is whether he can handle that role
That’s the thing about him; he played terribly when they brought him off the bench. I think his poor play forced them to move him into the starting lineup and bring Wilkins and Love off the bench. Even as a spot up shooter, that’s a 9th man on a good team. Parker and West bring defense to their roles. Williams is a good ballhandler and facilitator. Artest’s main job is to overpower people on both ends, not spot up in the corner. And Pavlovic… well, that team wasn’t that good, and he’s at least shown some defensive aptitude. My point was as much about Gomes not bringing other things to the table as it was about his streak shooting. How many contenders have 3-point specialists who don’t do at least one other thing decently? I won’t dispute that he could be J.J. Redick or Eddie House, but he’s not as good as West or Parker.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 22, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
What about James Posey?
Posey was Boston’s best reserve in their championship year. What does he bring that Gomes doesn’t? Maybe this is just semantics, but I think Gomes could be the 7th or 8th man.
Different players
Posey had two skills: playing superb man defense and hitting the corner three. Plus he’s a more agile wing player.
Gomes is mostly jump-shooting offense. Much better overall offensive player, but not near the defensive impact of Posey. He was a big deal on that Celtics team.
Gomes isn't in Posey's league defensively
At least not the Posey that played in 07-08. Posey was always able to guard 2s and 3s and was able to move to 4 when Boston went small; Gomes’ only position in which he has consistently held his own on both ends is the 4. They’re miles apart defensively. Posey is, first and foremost, an athletic defensive player who can also make 3s. Gomes isn’t athletic for a wing and can’t defend wings that well.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 23, 2010 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
Jefferson's play
has either declined because he’s really banged up, or just declined. One is an indictment on the coaching staff and management, the other on the player. Neither reason is going to make fans happy.
I wonder if he’s out there partially because the POBO realizes it already may be hard to get perceived value back for him, and doesn’t want him to sit for fear of getting a rep of “always hurt,” that will of course sink his trade value even further.
I vote for banged up
Who loses it at 25 without getting hurt? He just had knee surgery a year ago; I think he needed more time to recover.
I really believe an Al Jeff trade is going to happen either on Draft Night or afterwards, do you think this trade is realistic?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yh4mar4
MN gets:
Detroit’s 1st Round Pick
Washington’s 1st Round Pick
Tayshaun Prince
DET gets:
Gilbert Arenas
Javale McGee
Ryan Gomes (who they can release and owe nothing)
Nick Young
WAS gets:
Al Jefferson
Ben Gordon
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
Yikes
I like draft picks and all…. but wow. We have… a lot.
Could trade those picks to some other team that covets an individual player more than us for a young starter.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
Washington
can’t trade first rounders in consecutive years.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Feb 22, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Yes they can
They just make the pick first, then trade the rights to the player after making the pick. You’re right in that the trade couldn’t be finalized before the draft, but this rule isn’t an outright barrier to a trade.
Box
Good point. Makes the whole deal seem a bit riskier to me, but good point.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Feb 22, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
You're both wrong
But Ebomb is closer to being right.
The rule is you can’t owe consecutive 1st rounders. Once the debt of the first pick is paid, you can send out your next 1st rounder without restrictions.
So....
…I’m confused as to what “once the debt of the first pick is paid” means in this case – not that I’m disagreeing with you. I thought that the rules prohibit Washington from trading their first this year to anyone unless they acquire another first, right? I didn’t think it was worded so that you could trade a first one year and that team uses the pick, and then trade a first again the following year. Is this where I’m mistaken?
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
Yep.
You can’t owe 2 consecutive first rounders, but you can trade every single 1st rounder as long as you do it year by year. The theory behind the Stepien rule is that teams need protection from themselves or they’ll trade away all their future picks. However, the way around the rule that I’ve described requires teams to trade their picks as they come, at which point the pick’s value is more tangible and owners are less likely to need protection from ripping themselves off.
What Ebomb described is the other way around the rule. If a team owes its 2011 1st rounder but wishes to trade its 2010 1st rounder, it can’t trade the pick (would simultaneously owe 2010 and 2011 picks), but it can make the selection then trade the draft rights of the player picked.
That's way too good for us....
… potentially two top 8 picks for Big Al and Gomes? We would have to take on Maxiel’s contract not get Prince.
Thought that too. Just wishful thinking.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
OKC gets their “bruiser”:
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
That's interesting but....
…. I’m not sure either team is willing to give up a high lotto pick for trade. It’s an interesting idea but it will really depend on how the rest of the season plays out and where everyone falls in the draft.
I dont even know if it's that unfair
really depends on the Arenas situation and how much Detroit values McGee and Young compared to Washington. Maybe we could do this deal except with future picks instead of current? I think Detroit even wants to get rid of Prince so it’s not too far-fetched there either. Again, not a perfect trade and we are getting a little too much (and stuff we can’t really use effectively), but it’s close.
Saunders sure doesn’t think of him that way, wonder if Flip’s in their future plans, shit, Flip is just playing him now because they have nobody else, wonder if they brought in another PF or C how much PT he would get then, if this is true Grunfeld won’t hold on to Flip much longer.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
Flip may love to get bought out now
Also, Grunfeld could be gone before Flip considering the way things have gone.
Detroit is in such a weird position....
…. I don’t think Joe Dumars can unload Gordon (especially for Arenas’ contract) without the signing looking like a huge mistake. They essentially give up a lotto pick and a solid player in Prince (who will be expiring next year) to get McGee and Young. The Arenas-Gordon swap is really questionable right now. Arenas produces more but his contract is WAY worse.
I tried to think of a young SG/SF with a reasonable contract that could work in a trade for Jeff, but I just can’t find one, I just see draft picks being a big proponet in any Al deal, name a SG or SF that’s young and has a reasonable contract that somebody would give us in any deal involving Al, put other teams in their too, I like Granger, but as we’ve found out, he cannot be had, I wouldn’t take on Igoudala’s contract in any deal for Big Al either.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
Wouldn’t work with just Maxiell, need Prince or gasp, Hamilton to make the $$ money work for DET, sounds like Prince isn’t looking like anything long term for them, Arenas was still pretty dece’ before the gun thing, can see Dumars taking his contract on and dumping Gordon’s in the process, I’m sure that would be a relief, still would rather have Arenas any day of the week over BG.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
I've talked to Piston's fans....
…. and right now Prince seems to be a guy who has more value to them than a team like us. He is expiring next year so he could fetch a really nice return next deadline to a contender and he has nostalgia as a lifelong Piston. Hamilton and Maxiell’s contracts would be tough to swallow but I think it makes the trade more even from Detroit’s perspetive (depending on how they view Arenas and his contract).
I just can’t see us taking on the 32 year old’s contract, it’s just too steep, I’m almost positive Al will be gone after this season, what other kind of deal could be had before the Draft or after in the Sign and Trade period, don’t mention Gay either, he’ll never be worth the money he gets this off season.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
I agree that he's too old...
….but Al is not fetching 2 mid lotto picks. If you could find a team that could offer a large 2011 expiring + lotto pick (possibly also another wing prospect like a CDR type) I think that is closer to fair value. Look at Kevin Martin…. expirings + solid 6th man type player. Value for second-tier stars on long contracts is dwindling.
by jballer_13 on Feb 21, 2010 11:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What better than Arenas in terms of somebody dumping contracts, who do you think you could fetch in a trade next year for Prince’s expring contract? You’re not getting anybody young, you’re most likely getting an over paid one dimensional player like Kevin Martin, a player on a team that doesn’t want him or is rebuilding, I don’t think you can really expect to get anything better than a guy like Arenas for Prince’s contract while also dumping another one dimensional player with a big contract in Ben Gordon, McGee and dumping Gomes Salary make up for the Lottery pick, I just can’t see them taking a guy like Aldrich or Davis, you’ve seen what Dumars has done with high lottery picks, he better sit this one out too, LOL. I don’t know, somebody find me a more clever scenario and I’ll be more than happy to listen.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:12 PM CST up reply actions
If Stoudemire opts to his contract for next year, the Suns might take Prince’s expiring deal as part of a package for him. Why wouldn’t Prince have a similar value as Jamison did this year?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 21, 2010 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
Because Prince is nowhere near as talented as Jamison, are you kidding me? Yes, I could see the Suns taking Prince for Amare, but yes then they would request their mid lottery pick too, they’d have to give the Suns Charlie V too to make the numbers work for them, they’’re over the cap, and the Suns would never do that, they couldn’t make a deal with the Suns on thier own, they would have to involve somebody else, mabye the Wolves?
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
Prince’s highest PER: 16
Jamison’s: 20, and he’s done it for three seasons.
That shouldn’t be a question, Prince or Jamison, are you nuts?
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:22 PM CST up reply actions
Agree that Jamison is better but....
…. I think the argument that he will have “similar value” is okay. Prince would be a very valuable guy on a playoff team (somewhere like Orlando or Portland). Now he isn’t as good as Jamison but next year he would be expiring whereas Jamison still has 2 extra years after this year’s deadline. That just adds to the possible suitors.
Yeah, it's really nuts to quibble over 4 PER points
After reading you’re “I’m right and you’re wrong because you don’t agree with me” posts on the other fanposts, you’re the last person to be throwing “nuts” around.
Also, I wasn’t necessarily saying the Suns would keep Prince, but he could be part of a 3-team deal in which a playoff team traded the Suns a prospect and expiring for him.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 23, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
I just don't think they throw Prince in a trade right now...
… when he has negative value to a team like us, whereas they could use him next year to increase value to a trade.
I don’t think it’s far-fetched at all to say that Prince (if healthy) on an expiring contract would have positive value to teams that are either contending or looking to cut long-term salary during next year’s deadline.
From what I understand, the only player the Pistons will move just to move...
…is Charlie Villanueva. Which is pretty much impossible because he just signed a huge deal this past summer. But for whatever reason, he’s in the doghouse now.
Replace Charlie V with Prince in the trade and find somebody willing to take on his contract and provide us with an expring contract or somebody with less years on their contract.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:23 PM CST up reply actions
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yge9jdd
MN gets:
Prince
Robin Lopez
Austin Daye
Nick Collison
Det’s 1st Round Pick
DET gets:
Amare
PHO gets:
Al Jefferson
Ryan Gomes (can release)
Ryan Hollins (can buy out)
OKC gets:
Maxiell
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
Looks good
but MN already has Prince, or someone formerly known as Prince.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
If Robert Sarver (PHX owner) wasn't so cheap...
… I could see something like this. Seems pretty fair
Ah Sarver
I really feel bad for Suns fans. It’s one thing to not ever get a real contending team. It’s something completely else to have one, then get it blown up for no good reason
I feel for Warriors’ fans in the same way too, although they never really reached contendership.
I grew up in Phoenix...
During the Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Charles Barkley years. I adopted the Wolves when I moved back to Minny in 1996. However, Robert Sarver should die from gonnorhea and rot in hell.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I hope that Dan Marino dies of gonnorhea and rots in hell, would you like a cookie young man?
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
To quote exactly:
“It was all that Dan Marino’s fault, everyone knows that. If he had held the ball, laces out, like he was supposed to, Ray would never have missed that kick. Dan Marino should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Would you like a cookie, son?”
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:55 PM CST up reply actions
Then Sessions and Utah’s pick to IND for their pick. Based on ESPN Draft Lottery Positions not selections:
1.GS: Wall
2.NJ: Turner
3.MN: Cousins
4.SAC: Johnson
5.MN (IND): Favors (BPA, trade for a young starter, preferabaly a SG)
6.UTH: Aldrich
7.WAS: Davis/Motiejunas
8.MN: Aminu (hybrid PF/SF, hopefully he’s more J-Smoove than Julian Wright, BPA, trade for a true, scoring, SF)
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 21, 2010 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
If we’re going to move Al, I’d rather see us pursue a young fringe All Star SG/SF than a lot of bodies. We quality far more than quantity (although Detroit’s pick will be high).
I’d prefer Granger or Rudy G, but it’s too bad Deng’s contract isn’t a bit more reasonable b/c a trade with Chicago makes a lot of sense for both teams.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 22, 2010 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
If you think Deng's contract is bad...
…Wait ‘til you see what they give Gay. There’s too many teams, too few free agents for him not to get wildly overpaid. I wouldn’t trade Al’s rights for him without a reasonable extension as part of the deal.
Agreed....
….Detroit is kinda screwed. Joe D went from champion-crafting mastermind to building around Stuckey and 2 overpaid guys who come off the bench.
I definitely think Kahn wants
him playing 30+ MPG the rest of the season. This is a reason Love has been under 30 MPG recently.
Wish I could have seen the game...
sounds like Darko held his own.
Glad to see that Love had a good game. It looked like we might be losing him, in recent games.
Also glad to see Golden State win against Atlanta. Barring an unforeseen winning streak, we should have the 2-spot locked up for the lottery. Evan Turner didn’t shoot the greatest, today, but everything he does with the ball makes him look like a future stud in the NBA. His understanding of half-court offense, and ball-handling ability in traffic makes him pretty much a lock for NBA success. Also, he showed good lateral quickness when matched up with Lucas. I’m not at all worried about his defense at the next level.
LOL. From the AP game story:
Despite the Timberwolves losing, Minnesota was plus-35 with Milicic, who is admittedly out of game shape, on the floor.
“I was trying to focus on breathing,” Milicic said. “I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die.”
Wonderful
We’re Darkogasming over him and he’s just trying to breathe so he doesn’t die.
Different topic - Would the Nets draft Wall or Turner?
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 10:26 PM CST reply actions
Wall, a thousand times Wall
Word was that Devin Harris could be had for the right price before the deadline. Nothing ever came of it, though.
Devin Harris, Al, Kevin Martin
They’re all moving into that middle aged over-priced range, especially if the prospects of a lower salary cap and a mehconomy come to fruition.
Compared to a shiny 20 year old making a third as much, it’s hard to see how the vets are as attractive to a team far from contending.
No one wanted him
They say publicly they didn’t intend to trade him unless they were blown away with an offer, but the reality is no one even made an offer.
But they were very actively shopping him. Long term, expensive contracts like his are difficult things to have on the books when ownership changes. New owners like small, movable contracts so they can quickly build the kind of team they want to see.
Post-game audio.
Posted to the Twolves site.
http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/Wolves_Fall_Short_vs_Thunder_2010_02_21.html
For all of the compliments about Darko
and he did do extremely well in his first stint with a team where he is out of game shape, but we’re really making him sound like the next coming of Shaq. I’m guilty as well, I just don’t want Bill Simmons checking in and saying we overrate our players more than Golden State does. Most of the credit for his game goes to defense, as I think we were all very excited about that. He only ended up with 2 assists, considering how people were talking about him I would have thought he had 5+. Just a friendly reminder not to get ahead of ourselves here. That said, I AM STOKED!
I was actually secretly hoping we got Darko instead of Quentin Richardson at the beginning of the year and left Blount out of the equation completely, but I think it actually works out better this way. We swoop in and save the day for Darko and fans also get a nice rejuvenation when he steps on the floor.
Yeah
It’s too bad Kahn didn’t make this trade in November or December instead of February. But he was probably holding onto his expirings in case something else came along.
by littleboxes on Feb 21, 2010 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
He wasn't. New York was.
Kahn made a comment after the trade saying basically that he and Walsh had had the deal lined up for weeks but Walsh didn’t want to move on it until he was positive he wouldn’t need to send out Darko’s expiring for a more meaningful trade.
gotcha
by littleboxes on Feb 22, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
If Darko re-signs with the Wolves
I can’t wait to see the first NY writer who says Kahn will find a way to trade Rubio to the Knicks as payback to his buddy Walsh!
When to start Darko?
How many games do we give Darko to get in better shape before he starts ahead of Hollins? I’d like to see what Jefferson + Darko can do before I worry too much about whether Darko + Love > Jefferson + Hollins?
Another nice thing about this game wrap
when I saw your perfect lineup first, my first reaction was: But there is no shooting in the starting lineup, opponents would just pack the paint. Then I thought about it for a second and went: Oh right! Corey’s still kicking ass! And Love aint no scrub.
We’re getting there, gents!
Corey
Who could have expected this. It’s possible that people have already heard this stat, but Corey tied the team record for most consecutive games with a made 3 tonight. One more, and J.R. Rider comes off the books!
Yeah, I heard that and thought “never in a million years would I have expected Brewer to be in the running for a record that had anything to do with 3pters made.” Crazyness!
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Karma
Anything this franchise can do to get JR Rider out of its record books is a great thing.
I have a vague memory of him talking comeback earlier this year… anyone else?
by littleboxes on Feb 22, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Crazy record
Also, I hope to never see another Corey Brewer item that in in way, shape, or form involves a reference to J.R. Rider!
Darko vs. The Pistons
The Wolves very last game this season is against the Pistons. I hope he goes for 30 and 20 with 10 assists and 5 blocks.
Its too bad
We already wrapped up our season series against the Knicks. Darko might’ve ripped David Lee in half
I never understood why he didn't play with the Knicks
He can run the floor, roll off picks, rebound, and dunk, and that’s all you really need to be able to do as a big man in that system.
David Lee
is really good and seems to provide Mike D’Antoni with more of what he likes. Running, shooting, energy.
Mike D is also famous for his short rotations with only a few guys playing insane minutes. So he picked his 7 or 8 and just ran with them.
He also didn’t play Nate Robinson for a month or two. Perhaps Nate stayed game ready and Darko didn’t.
by littleboxes on Feb 22, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
and one mustache
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 21, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
In response to the live question deal
Not a huge fan. Jonah moderated too much. I realize there was a fine line between asking questions that they can and can’t answer without writing too much, but I think it just got old hearing who each of the four guys thought had improved the most this year and who their favorite player was. Also the same question about Darko popped up about 5 times. I’d really prefer if questions were submitted ahead of time and voted on on Timberwolves.com. It was just really a drag to see a lot of questions that had already been answered or in no way, shape, or form actually enlightened us about our favorite team.
If nothing else, questions should be able to be submitted to each person and then decided by the fan base who wants to see what as the questions are being answered. It was really inefficient and ineffective. Two keys to good business…
Someone should ask if Jonah picked the questions, or Taylor
I wasn’t sure, because they were both looking at the screen whenever the camera was on them
I think next time we should switch and have Kahn do the chat. He’s more candid, and more willing to answer complex questions. I feel like the PR people were really screening for Taylor.
Maynholeup for moderator, please
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
by uncle rico on Feb 21, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No offense to SnP
but mayh hole, as I posted earlier, was like a gateway drug to me frequenting this site. One of the first posters I encountered, and was hooked, always looking for that next fix.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
I s'pose since now you're hooked,
I can reveal MAYN HOLLUP’s true identity.
by PoorDick on Feb 21, 2010 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
God, I nearly soiled myself
Imagining Mayn’s idiolect in the auditory part of my brain suffered serious cognitive dissonance upon seeing Sid’s visage. Perfect storm of: irritable bowel syndrome, overactive bladder, the element of surprise. Looks like Sid is perhaps experiencing some discomfort himself? What ails him? Piles? That famous portrait of Churchill was inspired, in part, by photographer Yousuf Karsh yanking the cigar from Winston’s mouth. Makes one wonder what prompted such a mien from good ol’ Sid.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
I'm still laughing
Can see a good Dana Carvey impersonation, “I’ll get you, lil whippersnapping sports blogger. My good friend [fill in blank…”
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
According to Admiral Ackbar...
"IT"S A TRAP!!!"
PD is MaynHoylUP!!!
And he is Luke’s father.
Clever diversion, but we’re on to you Dick…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Indigent Richard is actually
Kahn. That’s my theory, and I’m sticking with it. But, hey, let’s not start making up stuff here.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Ah, just like Obama's Health Care Summit
*source: Daily Show
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
And before you say anythign
That’s right, I have a list. They don’t call me “the most organized Shiv-er this side of the Mississip” for nothin.
I peeked again today
and am still laughing. Thanks for sharing, Purplejesus.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Love/May trade still paying dividends
This trade wouldn’t have been possible if we hadn’t swapped Marko Jaric’s contract for Cardinal’s back in June of ’08.
I think the Grizzlies eventually bought him out, though.
Just sayin…that was a good trade.
Jaric...
Man, I had a major problem with that trade. He was a guy I think McHale had been targeting for a couple years prior to that deal, and we just way oversold to make it happen.
You know what I'd love
A really candid chat/discussion with McHale. I want to know what he was thinking. Truly. Did he hate Cassell? Did he love Jaric? What did he see there?
yeah the Cassell/Jaric trade sucked
the pick included was really the killer (and then Jaric’s huge S&T contract we took on).
but I’m glad that McHale realized at some point that he had to stop digging himself into a hole and was actually able to start moving things in the right direction. Moving Jaric for Cardinal wasn’t sexy on the surface but the fact that Cardinal’s deal expires after this season and Jaric was (is?) still on the books for 2010/2011 made all the difference in the world to the Knicks.
Making the best of a bad situation, even if it was of his own doing. Gotta give the guy a little credit. Not a lot….just a little.
no, you don't
Not even a little credit.
He sh$t the bed every night for a decade, and you want to give him a little credit for changing the sheets now and then?
Off the topic a little
but the last comment reminded me of this, did anyone see during the rookie-soph game when one commentator told Mchale “Love, you drafted him right” and Mchale said something to the extent of I actually drafted Mayo and Traded for Love, 2 guys that are in this game, what does that say about my drafting skills? Does he actually think he was a good GM…..
McHale wasn't completely horrible.
He did draft poorly (Grant, Ebi, Foye, Avery, etc, etc). And some of it was bad luck, like injuries killed our ’04 playoff run and Marbury turning crazy
by SF on Feb 22, 2010 3:34 AM CST up reply actions
Oh yes he was
His good picks:
Garnett
Mayo/Love
OK picks:
Szczerbiak
Rasho
Brewer
Marbury (not entirely McHale’s fault, but oh Ray Allen, what could have been…)
Bad picks: literally everyone else
But in response to thealmtyb, I heard him say that it didn’t get that impression. It was a throwaway line.
With the exception of Rasho
Every single player is in the top seven of the draft. I know draft success is highly weighted towards the top, but it would have been nice to hit on a fifth of our picks outside the top ten. Especially considering that we were a playoff team for seven straight seasons.
Or trade a couple of them for future picks (see David Kahn)
and at some point package a couple together for one decent pick. McHale never seemed to think that way.
Utah comes back from a 25 point defecit to force OT in Portand....
…..could they just lose every now and then for our pick’s sake?
Tonight was like watching the basketball version of Seabiscuit
At least the start of the movie. Broken down trainer falls for a broken down horse. Not sure the Darko story will end the same, but it was fun! Also showed how badly the Wolves need a legit center…hopefully that argument can now end.
The broadcast format must have been fairly successful, judging by the number of people already posting here tonight!
Was anyone else upset...
About Darko tonight? Not with him personally. But that such an obvious need was neglected for so long? We basically signed a draft bust off the street, and he’s better than anything we have. I’m not sure if I should be happy…or pissed that a 7’ Serbian tramp becomes our 3rd best player???
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I'd be upset...
….if it was still McHale in office. But Kahn….well, ya he could have done it sooner, but I think he made a smart choice sticking with Al and Love, even if just for appearance’s sake.
Actually, I'm happy about it.
Khan realized last summer that we needed WAY more size up front—which is why he signed Hollins. Of course Hollins is a horrible player, but it is encouraging that Khan knows what we desperately need and is willing to go after it.
by SF on Feb 22, 2010 3:36 AM CST up reply actions
Al
He’s hurting the team. He shouldn’t play. Look at Darko’s comments so far — concerned about hurting the team because he’s out of shape. Al can be commended for playing hurt, but he obviously isn’t himself, even on O. He can’t move well and he can’t even dunk, it seems. Sit and watch for a few games.
If Al stays, he seriously needs to work on his passing and become OK on D. At PF with a legit center next to him, that’s entirely possible. Al is no C.
I am interested
to see Al play next to Darko.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
He's a PF?
So with someone else defending the paint Al is free to guard a mobile 4 out near the 3 pt line? He’ll get to set the high screens and roll to the hoop or stretch defenses with his jumper? I don’t see the argument for Al as a 4 paired next to a low post big man. But maybe, if TheEvilProfessor gets his wish, we’ll find out by pairing him with Darko.
No, Al is a C
but he needs to be paired with someone more mobile who can run out on guys while being a complementary player on offense. If Al keeps holding onto the ball and doing the one against three crap, he will be gone. No way Rambis puts up with that for another year. mark my words, if Al keeps doing that stuff in games, he will be gone by the trade deadline next year. That is not how Rambis wants to play.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
I think this is probably true...
… although Love isn’t nearly in the shape he has to be to play over 35 mins a game in Al’s absence. His poor conditioning doesn’t get nearly enough crap.
Kahn actually made a comment last night
about the fact that Love will probably always be a little overweight.
Well, there's my monthly reminder that Tripod still exists...
… but Geocities does not.
You were a daydreamer, a sass-mouth, and, not infrequently, a bit of a gigglepuss. Somehow I doubt twenty years of amphetamines and failure have done anything to improve that.
by Kevin Loves McHale's Navy on Feb 22, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Like a well honed team
it seems the netizens here are meshing into clearly defined roles which play to their strengths. Might we add official titles to these roles which reflect on the nature of their bailiwick?
If he does not take umbrage at such a moniker, SnP could be our Beloved Leader. Wyn, the Director of Victories. John Doe has taken up the mantle of Supreme Arbiter of Truth. Mayn would be a great poet laureate (with the caveat that he does not use the El Sid portrait). I hereby nominate Indigent Richard to be Secretary of the Image Archive. Currently accepting nominations for all other posts.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Another note about Darko's comments
I read somewhere this morning that he said something along the lines of “As of this moment, I’m 100% going back to Europe, but you never know, things can change.” I got a little nervous about that, as I’d like him to at least give us the opportunity to make a sales pitch. But then I read in a different article (sorry, the links are escaping me right now), that he spoke to the media after the morning shoot-around and before the game, so I’m curious as to whether his comments about going back to Europe were from the morning interview or after the game. I’d have to believe that last night’s performance and reception/reaction from the crowd had to go a long way towards reminding Darko why he enjoys playing the game.
One other little tidbit which I’ll share despite the uber-small sample size – Darko’s per 36 minute production last night: 15 points, 15 boards, almost 4 assists, and nearly 2 blocks. That, my friends, combined with excellent size, length, and mobility is starting center material on a championship squad, even if his scoring and rebounding go down by 5.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Feb 22, 2010 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Want to join
the fanclub?
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
I've already joined
my random desire to have Darko join our team back before the season started instead of Blount or Richardson finally came to fruition! And he did well beyond my wildest expectations.
Maybe I will make my tagline something about the Darko Fanclub…
You know who he reminded me of last night?
Arvydas Sabonis. Granted, he’s lighter on his feet and younger, but just the way his sheer size and heady play impacted the game was what struck me. Let’s hope he keeps it up and the front office and fans give him a huge dose of Minnesota Nice. Centers can take a long time to hit their stride in this league and he’s had the albatross of missed expectations and disappointment weighing him down up to this point.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 22, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
The other thought I had
and I don’t really know what to do with this so take it as you will, but that’s that Minnesota/Upper Midwest is more Darko’s kind of place. There are strong (albeit northern) European roots and traditions here. We’re still pretty working class (meaning that our glitz and glam scene/rumor mill pales in comparison to almost any other metropolitan area), we respect privacy, and we value hard work and effort no matter the outcome. That’s partly why Darko has gotten such a positive reception, even amongst casual fans. More than seeing him strictly as a bust and a joke (a la Olowokandi), we look at him and his story and see our own underdogness- hardworking scrapper from the middle of nowhere gets crapped on by a prestigious coach (L. Brown), then goes somewhere and starts getting his feet set (Memphis/Orlando) before going to another ‘elite’ coach/city (D’Antoni/NYC) and gets crapped on again. We say ’he’s a good kid who just got jerked around by those a-holes in their big-falutin’ cities.’ I say, come to ‘Sota and be embraced by people who always cheer the guy who never gives up and keeps scrapping and playing. I don’t think Darko necessarily wants to be a star, just like we don’t want our state or our TC to become super well-known on the national scene, but I think he just wants the chance to compete and show what he can do and earn and be respected for it. From Punto to Larkin to Sealy to Brewer to Harold Morrow to Pete Bercich to Chris Walsh, this town loves those kinds of players.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Feb 22, 2010 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Effort or lack of.
That was very well stated and is fast the reason I am becoming less of a fan of Love. Ever since he was moved to the bench I have hardly seen more than a minute or two where Kevin actually looks like he is trying his hardest. People always bitch about him not playing enough minutes but half the time he is taken off the court is because he is whining about some call or not even trying on defense. In the year 2010 I believe Love and Flynn tie for the worst defense played. Hopefully next year he will try a bit harder.
by TheMorningAfter on Feb 22, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
I'm hoping it starts next game
He doesn’t need a summer off to remember to play hard.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 22, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
Darko's comments
about going back to europe were from before the game, havent found any post game comments other than the one about being out of breath here’s where I read it….
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/84926642.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUHK:uUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
Darko's Outside Shot...
A lot of people have mentioned Darko’s shooting, and his ability to hit outside shots. I’ve also always assumed that this is true, but did you realize that Darko has never made an NBA 3 pointer? Kind of crazy.
Congrats on your storyline...
… being lifted by TrueHoop with no link.
Hmph.
Everybody KNOWS that ESPN is the only place for original, indepth, nuanced coverage of all things even tangentially related to sports.
My guess is that SnP stole it from ESPN, who stole it from Stephen A. Smith.
If that's the case
Either ESPN or Stop-n-Pop deserves some amount of credit for translating it into plain English, using lower case font rather than all caps, and removing the exclamations of “HOWEVA!”
Using my decoding ring
I noticed the similarity between SnP and ESPN.
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
Have Pekovic and Darko ever played together?
Their paths seem to avoid crossing (although maybe not by much), but perhaps someone knows something I don’t. That’d certainly be something we’d be interested in.
I watched the game online via NBA LP
Unfortunately the Thunder feed was used, so I didn’t hear any of the Kahn comments.
Has anyone seen a good summary (or transcription even) of what he said?
PS: For those that didn’t watch, the contrast between when Darko was in vs. out on defense was astounding. This could be his “Pecherov vs. Celtics” outlier game. He could also be the 2nd straight Euro to bail on us. But his defense, size, and passing were very good. If consistently plays 90% this well, I’d love it if the Wolves could convince him to stay.love to see him stay in the NBA.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Now that I think about it....
….I don’t think Al and Darko were ever on the floor together last night
As I slowly move to the trade Al bandwagon
it would be nice to see Al-Darko play together. Since Rambis is experimenting with line ups in a manner that can only be akin to a mad scientist, why not give them some burn together?
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
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