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Jonny and Darko

The Wolves have officially split into two camps: 

Team Jonny: The traditional pecking-order based, pick-and-roll dominated, bang the ball down low and get it to your studs type of offense with we'll-get-around-to-it-sometime defense and very little else.  Team Jonny consists of Flynn, Al Jefferson, Ryan Hollins, and, occasionally, Ryan Gomes.    

Team Darko: An up-tempo, two-way squad dominated by nothing more than what works with smarts and positioning on both sides of the ball.  Team Darko's leading scorers and rebounders will change from night to night.  Team Darko consists of Ramon Sessions, Corey Brewer, Kevin Love, Darko, Wayne Ellington, and, occasionally, Ryan Gomes.  

UPDATE: We've received a few emails telling us that the comments section of this post have started to crash some browsers.  I've closed the comments so that we don't do any additional damage and have opened up an overflow thread here.

Star-divide

I know the company line from the Wolves is that fans are going to have to sit through long stretches of questionable play from Flynn, and that these stretches are to be referred to as "growing pains", but at some point these pains become nothing more than constant reminders that Flynn doesn't look anything like a point guard (can someone please explain the "potential" thing?) and that if this team is really serious about winning, both now and down the road, the coaching staff and front office will need to have a more realistic view of his talents, especially in comparison to Ramon Sessions.  

Last night Kurt Rambis bucked a recent trend of leaning on Ramon Sessions in the 4th by playing Jonny Flynn down the stretch and it nearly cost him the game.  Flynn treated viewers to a non-stop display of over-dribbling, horrible use of the pick (which, it should be noted, was often a fantastic Darko pick), terrible angles on passes, and all-around suckitude.  Yeah, he was able to make a key jumper down the stretch but this was after jacking up a 3 way too early in the shot clock and fouling a Heat player on a 3-point attempt (I think he did this twice last night) among many other FUBARs.  

Last night's game was the second game in a row where the Wolves' bench was the most outstanding unit.  Team Darko ended the contest with all 5 players in positive plus/minus territory.  Team Jonny ended it all in the negative.   Why?  Two way play.  Defense.  Unselfish offense that doesn't stop in the hands of Jonny or Al Jefferson.  

Just two games into the Darko tenure on this team, and there cannot be a larger gap between the two different personalities/directions/whatever on this squad.  This difference becomes more apparent with each passing minute of game action.  It's noticeable when Big Al doesn't hedge on a screen or when he is too late to close out on a pass.  It is noticeable when the two teams mix into a single lineup and Team Darko guys suddenly sit around and watch the Alpha members of Team Jonny hold and hold and hold and hold the ball.   It is noticeable when Darko and Love are able to run out there and pass as a functional two way front court while the addition of a single Team Jonny player sends us all back to 110+ defensive rating nightmares.  

The Wolves beat the Heat because of their bench (and Wade missing the game).  The Wolves beat the Heat in spite of their coaching staff trying to pretend that Flynn belonged out there when the game was on the line.  The Wolves beat the Heat because they sent their "best" and highest paid player to the bench for long stretches of the 4th quarter because his defense is simply too atrocious to give his team a chance.  The Wolves beat the Heat because Ramon Sessions, Wayne Ellington, Kevin Love, and Darko got just enough court time with their fellow Team Darko members for a lead to be built and maintained.  

The elephant in the Team Darko/Team Jonny room is that Kurt Rambis could be viewed as running some awful, no-good, piss-poor rotations out on the court and that he isn't giving his team the best chance to win.  It's nice to see a willingness to send the completely ineffective Hollins and the mostly-ineffective Jefferson to the bench in favor of front court players that work, but he doesn't do it nearly enough.  Love needs more minutes and...well, Darko's winded.  In the backcourt and on the wing, Sessions is getting jobbed.  Wayne Ellington should be getting 20 mpg and Corey Brewer needs to show the team if he has anything at the 3 to accommodate for any increase in Wayne's minutes. The rotations and minutes have been way off in recent weeks and it is very frustrating, as a fan, to sit and watch rotations that you know don't work continue to be run out there on the court.  

Wrapping this little ditty up, it really has been amazing to see what an honest-to-Pete two way 7 footer can do for this team, especially Kevin Love.  Darko didn't do much in the way of the stat sheet last night, but he altered shots, opened up room for Love to crash the boards, hedged on screens, closed out on shooters, and protected the rim.  In other words, he's doing things in the defensive frontcourt that we haven't seen since Kevin Garnett.  He has also been able to fit in as well as he can on the offense.  He's clearly out of shape and he has a lot to learn about the Triangle, but already he has been able to grasp a few basic ideas that have allowed him to be more effective than the team's "best" player.  He is able to pass out of the pinch-post.  He is able to make the correct pass out to the perimeter so it can be kicked around for an open 3.  He doesn't screw up the spacing.  He is the anti Al Jefferson. Right now, I'm pretty geeked about the Darko development but I have a bad feeling that it's not going to end well.  He'll go back to Europe after proving once and for all that a) Jefferson is a worthless two way player, b) Love needs to be surrounded by a legit-sized defensive big, and c) Jefferson is overpaid and useless on defense.  I want to make-believe that other teams aren't watching this.  I want to make believe that a bum knee is partly responsible for some of the crap we are seeing.  But it's not.  Darko has highlighted the two directions this team could take.  He has highlighted the two teams within a team.  Whether he stays or goes, he's raised some very uncomfortable questions about the team's highest paid player and, to a lesser extent,  its shiny new point guard.  

Until. 

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Comments

Display:

I don't think S-n-P has said 10 complimentary things combined

about Jonny Flynn this season. So, it fits well into the narrative that he’s constructed. Flynn = Bad. Jefferson = Bad. Love = G.O.A.T.

by TimAllen on Feb 23, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I thought it was

like C.H.O.M.P., the Disney movie about the robotic dog.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Obviously Flynn has his flaws

and he didn’t play very well tonight. But it’s one thing to point out criticisms. It’s another to just go off on the same guy over and over and suggest that the guy has no positives about him whatsoever.

by TimAllen on Feb 23, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmmm...

right now, I would start Sessions to see how it goes. Flynn is struggling and should watch. He’s pushing too hard now. The stupid 3 attempt for the dagger is all the proof you need.

But, looking back at the whole season, it just seems like Flynn is more of an impact player. More dynamic. Still think Flynn stays and Ramon goes if the Rubio thing works out.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 23, 2010 11:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Definitely.

Flynn really does have much more potential than Sessions. He’s more dynamic. More frusterating this year, yes, but he really does have potential.

by SF on Feb 24, 2010 2:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I 100% do not get this argument

He’s a sub 6 foot shooting guard who doesn’t seem to understand how to run an offense and can’t play defense. He’s Foye minus a few inches right now.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:28 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

The Fundamental Problem

is people see Jonny Flynn as a good athlete putting up decent PPG and assume he’s a long-term fix at the 1.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 24, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions  

well he's short...

so he’s a PG, right?

(note: sarcasm)

I keep trying to find the right player comparison for Flynn and I have a really hard time. Maybe a miniature version of Corey Magette, at this point.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:19 AM CST up reply actions  

With the 6th Pick? Hooray for Kahn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nate Robinson 2.0, fuck that dude, Foye minus 4 inches is a perfect comparison, dude’s too stubborn too, you can tell he just will never break his habits, hopefully his next team will like him, would you come to a franchise that takes sub 6 foot SGs in the Top Ten of drafts, why would an International star come here for that?

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Feb 24, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, you can just tell he’ll never change or improve. This was written in stone 2000 years ago.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Way to stay on message from your previous posts

Rip Kahn – check
Exclamation points – check
F-bomb – For sure

by Rumblebee on Feb 24, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Disagree

It seems like most Wolves fans view Ricky Rubio as the long-term fix at the 1. In the alternative, John Wall, if we should be so lucky. Hell, maybe even Ramon Sessions, if Flynn never improves, we don’t win the ’10 Lottery and Rubio demands a trade.

Flynn is just a pretty decent player from a pretty weak draft. If Evans was taken after Flynn, then it would be a harder pill to swallow. Jonny can clearly play at this level and we’re better off with him than without him.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

The problem is he's probably best suited as a 6th or 7th man.

I’m still not sure why they didn’t take Curry. I’m thinking it probably came down to needing to get more athletic.

Flynn’s skillset would probably be best complimented by making the three ball more of his arsenal so he can fit into his Nate Robinson/Ben Gordon type role.

by Jose Cordoba on Feb 24, 2010 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

If nothing else, Flynn’s struggles should ease any Rubio concerns about battling for our starting PG spot.

“Ricky Rubio will be our starting point guard the day he comes over.”

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Didn't matter

he’s too good of a prospect to pass on. Nobody else, Curry included, was in that category.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Point is

it’s not illegal to draft a guy who doesn’t work out for you.

by dropstep on Feb 24, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Right.

Kahn even said something to the effect that they had enough video and information on Curry to not draft him just because of the workout.

by LoveTo on Feb 24, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Curry

would look good on our squad, no doubt about it, but then we’d be at a deficit on the athleticism. What’s funny is that this Team Darko/Team Jonny idea is, I think, what I’ve been waiting for all year. Curry would fit in with Team Darko, but we needed to see all these guys play in Rambis system to figure this stuff out. Notably, we needed Darko to really highlight the dichotomy of philosophies/preferred styles on this team. If I had to guess which direction this team will head in the future, it’s Team Darko with athleticism and size.

So, can a guy like Jonny fit on Team Darko? I think so. To me it’s less a question of Jonny over Ramon or Ramon over Jonny. To me it comes down to whether or not Rambis and Wohl and everyone can find a role for Jonny in their system. Griping about where he was drafted, or how tall he is, is water under the bridge at this point. Like Tubby with Royce White and Trevor Mbwake, you move on with what you have, and what we have with Jonny is an athletically gifted scorer who has legitimate NBA talent. Should he be starting at this point? No. But he’s still got a lot of upside as a primarily scoring point who has shown the ability to pass.

Agh…this gets frustrating to rehash the same old observations over and over and over again. Tough time of year for basketball fans of losing squads – what else do we have to talk about?

I’ll finish up by saying that Jonny isn’t viewed by the Wolves as the long term PG solution – Rubio is. Ramon may become the long term backup on this team, but both guys are here because we have nothing else and because they will remain a pretty solid value in terms of trade sweeteners. I think that’s the honest truth. The Wolves can afford to give Jonny some time and see if becomes a homerun draft pick, and so I think they’re giving him experience and studying the Team Jonny/Team Darko aspect of it at the same time.

Lastly, anyone see this? It’s from Jerry Z’s blog. Leave it to Isaiah Thomas to screw over yet another underachieving team (ours):

Former NBA star Isiah Thomas stopped by Jonny Flynn’s dinner table in Miami Monday night and the two point guards talked ball for about 10 minutes.

“He told me to make sure you always put pressure on the defense,” Flynn said. "Sometimes when you’re young coming into the NBA, you don’t know how to play defense yet. So he says the best defense sometimes could be your offense. If that guy’s always thinking in the back of his mind that he has to stop you, it could take him out of his offensive game.

:“Even if you’re pushing the ball up the court and not even looking to score, it just puts pace in the game.”

Flynn said Thomas’ words inspired him to attack more Tuesday, which could explain his five turnovers (out of the team’s 20) and also his explosive driving layup with 38 seconds left that repelled the Heat after they got within a single point.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 9:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Some people have the midas touch and some people have the touch of black death. Isiah has touch of black death.

by Jaughn on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually

the Thomas part about pushing the ball has been preached to Flynn by the coaching staff all season, he just hasn’t done it well.

As to your 1st paragraph, Kahn has consistently said the Wolves have to become more athletic.

by Rumblebee on Feb 24, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd argue that

instead of being “a pretty decent payer from a pretty weak draft”, Flynn is a pretty weak player from a pretty decent PG draft.

by dropstep on Feb 24, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

That was the unfortunate part of drafting 6th in 2009. The only good players left were point guards, and the odds of getting one at #20 were about the same as at #6. I realize Curry’s stats are pretty awesome the last couple months, and maybe he will be a bigtime star. But until it leads to some sign of team success, I can’t get too worked up about not having him here. To make the easy comparison for Wolves fans getting mad about the draft, Brandon Roy made an instant impact on Portland’s W/L record (jumped from 21 to 32, his first year, then to 41 in his 2nd) — that was the biggest reason he won ROY and looked like a star. Golden State is near the Wolves for winning percentage, and that’s with more talent, and more experience surrounding their rookie point guard.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Not the greatest take, Andy G

Curry’s stats are devalued because Golden State isn’t winning more than they did a year ago? Couldn’t some of that perhaps be due to the injuries to Biedrins, Randolph, Azubuike, Turiaf, etc. that have left the Warriors playing games with 6 and 7 man rotations and giving major minutes to guys like Anthony Tolliver, C.J. Watson, Chris Hunter, and an assortment of D-League rentals at times during the season?

I wouldn’t try to argue it either way. There’s simply no way to isolate the effects of Curry’s play when the devastating effect of Golden State’s injuries has no doubt impacted their win total far more than the effects of one new player ever could.

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Corey

One could argue that with Brewer before this season there was no way he could ever be counted on for O. While he’s not going to get to Kobe level, he has improved and helped us on O this year.

Flynn can beat people off the dribble with ease and he has 3-range. He needs to be able to see the floor/find people on his drives to become more complete, obviously. But, if he does improve in those areas, like Brewer has improved his shooting, you have something pretty good. A guy who can drive to the basket and score or dish off to others for an easy two if doubled down low. And, if you sag off of him, he can hit the three. Corey was sub .200 on the three his first year and now he’s .347, almost as good as Flynn.

Sessions doesn’t have the inside/outside threat as much as Flynn. He doesn’t have 3-range (.100 this year and .196 career), and he can’t beat people off the dribble as well as Flynn. Sessions is a little steadier (better assist to turnover) with the ball, just not as dynamic as Flynn. Less upside.

Flynn will learn to distribute better before Sessions “learns” to be quicker or develops 3-range. If Rubio comes and one must go, Flynn should stay.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 24, 2010 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

And as for D

Neither Sessions or Flynn is that great. They both need to improve and they both are young. Part of Darko’s good D has something to do with experience. Talent/effort are a bigger part, but experience should help both Flynn/Sessions. Like don’t foul a 3-point shooter Flynn!

by ChicagoViking on Feb 24, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I guarantee that..

Sessions will learn to be quicker before Flynn learns to grow 3-4 inches.

Shooting is widely considered one of the easiest things to improve, and one of the stats that consistently increases throughout a career. Although it should be noted that the other easily improved area is decreasing turnovers.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm with you on that

I think mental “potential” is seriously underrated. I really think that Sessions with his combination of physical skills, mental skills, and track record of overcoming expectations, has clearly more “potential” than Flynn. Who wasn’t even very good in college.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

"Wasn't even very good in college"

Did you actually watch the majority of games he played during his time at Syracuse or are you basing that off something else?

I watched probably 90 percent of his college games and he was very, very good.

by Menyun3 on Feb 24, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I guarantee I could find you 5 drives that SHOULD have resulted in an easy hoop for the big if Flynn had looked to pass to his screener. Instead, he chose to go around the pick and blaze toward the hoop the second he saw daylight, only to throw up a brick or get stuffed. He was awful today.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 23, 2010 11:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think I can think of 5 Flynn drives...

…that resulted in an easy hoop for Flynn either.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:26 AM CST up reply actions  

or a joke

;)

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

While it's not completely true...

Flynn really never seems to get too many “easy” layups… All his shots near the hoop have a moderate to high degree of difficulty, to his credit though, he hits them at a decent clip.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

Think it was in the 2nd quarter where he had that amazing layup and he seems to have at least one of those “how the F did that go in” every game.

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

At initial press conference

I remember Rambis saying that Rubio would start and Flynn would come off the bench. As obvious a coaching decision as that is, I remember Kurt discussing how Jonny was a scoring point who would do well providing a spark of the bench.

Now for the life of me, I don’t understand why the acquisition of Sessions did not provide Rambis with an excuse to bring Flynn off the bench. Kahn has also iterated that Jonny is a scoring point. And, to my recollection, all this talk of Jonny as Chris Paul came from Big Al Jefferson not Rambis or Kahn.

Sessions playing time is interesting. I found it odd that Skiles didn’t seem to like Sessions and would only appear to give him big minutes when someone was hurt. He had this obsession with Ridnour even though he had Sessions. Perhaps there’s something about Sessions game that NBA coaches don’t like because their A) Ignorant or B) know more than us.

I’m keeping the faith with Rambis but the rotations are weird. Hopefully they are weird in a Phil Jackson Zen kind of way.

by littleboxes on Feb 23, 2010 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

It's okay. We're giving you minutes so you'll develop.

Got your back.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I've wondered before

about this, but it seems that Sessions might not be the best at making friends. Never really seems to be the guy joking around with teammates or having teammates mention him any time.

Jonny on the other hand…

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Sounds similar to Andre Miller

To me Sessions’ upside is Andre Miller. Miller also has a similar aloofness to his character.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Indeed

good comp.

Talent and personality-wise it would seem.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I like this comp a lot

I also like Andre Miller a lot.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Its could be partially for development... though you could give equal number of minutes off the bench........but my own hypothesis is showcasing......

Starting PG with 14 pts and 5 assists….. traded this summer or more like in the year after that …… as Rubio’s arrival gets closer……

Teams always look for scoring…..so even if Flynn isn’t a great facitator… he’d have value… a much more user friendly Nate Robinson………

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 23, 2010 10:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

I wonder if Flynn and Sessions end up being our tandem again next season if Rambis throws the door wide open at training camp for these two to compete for the starting job. At that point, Flynn can no longer use the rookie excuse and he had every chance to develop his game Year 1, and to your point, it’s not like Sessions is this 32 year old vet on his last hurrah. The guy could still end up being a very good starting PG.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 23, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

And come to think of it

This wouldn’t be the end of the world. We all talk about how Sessions is gone as soon as Rubio comes over, but that’s not until 2011. Were Sessions to win the starting job next season, his value would be nice and high for that following offseason.

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 12:08 AM CST up reply actions  

That's a clear problem with having been consistent this season

Come next training camp, how’s Jonny going to react if Sessions claims the starting job out of the gate next season? How different would that be than if they’d been tagging off in that role this time around?

Rambis has in many ways been a model of consistency. He and Kahn made the decision last summer that they’d be evaluating talent this year rather than scratching out every win, and they’ve stuck with the rotation they envisioned at the PG.

You look at what Jerry Sloan did with Deron Williams as a rookie in Utah, though, and it sure doesn’t seem like stretches of starting mediocre vets fundamentally undercut the development of the young point.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

He won't claim it out of the gate

Rambis tells them from the get-go that it’s an open competition through training camp and pre-season. May the best man win.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it's fairly clear

Flynn over Sessions? Suspect playing combinations/rotations? Reduced minutes for the players who help us win at the expense of the players who don’t help us win?

The answer (somewhat tongue in cheek) is found in the question: what is the best, fastest and yet long-term, most feasible way of turning around the fortunes of this team? The answer, of course, is the draft. I’ll leave what’s been unsaid all long still unsaid, but the Kahn and Rambis’ writing is on the wall.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 12:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...

…I didn’t want to go there yet, but I think you’re right. Plus, the other thing that is keeping me from really calling out this coaching staff is the clear player development of guys like Brewer, Love, and Ellington. They’re doing a good job on that front and i highly suspect that there are reasons (cough…draft…cough) for the rotations.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:30 AM CST up reply actions  

And I know it's been said before, but a LOT of this is on Kahn

The guys that are developing are the guys that can play in the triangle (although I hold my tongue on Love — he was 1-7 excluding 3s last night and has had real trouble getting his shot off against teams the last few games and these aren’t the Lakers or Magic we’re playing).

Flynn is just a bad fit for the Triangle which is why it was so stupid they hired their coach after the draft. Aren’t Rubio and Curry the logical picks if you know you’re running the Triangle? I’m no Flynn apologist, but he’s definitely in the wrong system.

by Sterno on Feb 24, 2010 9:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

Flynn, so far, is a bad fit on the triangle, but my guess is that they try over the off-season to create and define a clear role for him in it next year – most likely off the bench.

I think you’re also right in terms of Kahn putting the cart before the horse a bit in drafting players and signing some FAs before having a coach in place. I mean, I understand why he did, and I appreciate that he took the time to exhaustively interview coaching candidates and what not. Still seems a little bass ackwards, though. I guess if we’re assigning responsibility then we need to foist some on Papa Glen for waiting so long to hire a GM in the first place. Kinda tied the future GM’s hands no matter what.

SnP/Sterno – I hadn’t really noticed that before, but you’re right – the guys that are flourishing/developing are the guys that can play in the triangle. Love’s offensive issues reminds me of Kahn’s assessment of him earlier this season – is he the third option on a championship team (I know that’s not the number Kahn said, but looking at Love now what would you say)? I can imagine Love being a devastating between the gaps/lines (if that makes sense) player when he’s next to an All-Star scorer from the perimeter/wing. Imagine him next to a Tyreke or an Iggy? Love excels at the margins of plays – not the clear cut, cold blooded Kobe’s going to score no matter what type plays, but in the fallout of the almost-made-it plays (of which there are many). In a sense he’s like the Super Gomes at the PF position, deservedly earning his nickname of the Big Piranha.

I think Big Al gets moved this summer – packaged with a first or Jonny. I think the team overpays to keep Darko if they have to, in addition to drafting another mobile big. I think Pek comes over to fill Al’s spot, but from the bench. I think Kahn is targeting a playmaking scorer and defender with size and athleticism at the top of the draft – the kind of guy that will fit in the triangle and who can get his own shot, thereby enabling Love to be the second option at best. If that guy isn’t available to us at our spot, I think Al is used to try and get him, or I think a trade with Chicago goes down for Deng, contract and all (Deng moves us closer to where we want to be than Al does). I really like Al, and I think I’ll always be a fan, but he just doesn’t fit on this team anymore.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions  

I would just add

That Rambis’ unwillingness to play to 2 of his five best players’ strengths is beyond curious. I’m assuming this is the “we’re not really tanking, see?” line — roll out a lot of goofy rotations and hamstring your best attacker and your best low post player with an offense that doesn’t suit their skills.

Still, as a fan of the team who pays to go to games, shouldn’t the coach show more flexibility? Shouldn’t he not trot Pech and Pavs randomly? Shouldn’t Sessions get more minutes? Love?

I’m going to be concerned if we get into next year and we don’t see some more flexibility in terms of playing to our strengths and some logic to the rotations.

by Sterno on Feb 24, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Solid points

I’m reading very heavily between the lines here and adding a healthy dallop of my own speculation, but I think Rambis believes that the system needs to be in place before the team and players can go anywhere. Furthermore, because we won’t go anywhere without good players, a year of suckitude and experimentation will get us further in the long run in terms of Rambis understanding his own system better, higher draft picks, and understanding how their scouting projections and the actual product on the court jive (or don’t jive).

I also think that there’s an element of ‘finding his own guys’ going on here – who on this team listens to Rambis, or if not listens then responds well to his coaching and motivational techniques. So I think you see some mysterious fluctuations in Love and Al’s minutes, you see Sessions kept behind Jonny in order to be used as leverage, etc.

It’s not perfect, and on a more established team I think some of Rambis’ moves would actually raise a lot of red flags, but honestly on this team I think our coaching staff is the best building block we have going forward. If I have to trust anything on this team I’m going to trust Rambis, Theus, Laimbeer and Wohl to know that what they’re doing is going to yield dividends in the long term. This off-season will be so incredibly telling, and perhaps already has been – the Darko pickup reeks of the coaching staff’s desire. Even beyond Rambis’ gushing over him, it makes sense, really. Who should know the roster better than the coaches? And between Rambis and Laimbeer, who should be able to recognize the right kind of skills for the triangle and a defensive center (and with Laimbeer specifically that might include knowledge from his time in Detroit while Darko was there)?

If some of my suppositions are correct, then we will see some dramatic moves this summer, most notably Al being traded and this franchise being remade around a piece not yet here. I think Kevin Love is a definite part of it, but no more than Brewer, Ellington, Sessions, or even Flynn at this point. Our two cornerstone players are Rubio and someone else, because looking at the rotations and the way Rambis seems to want things to go on the court, those are the two biggest pieces missing.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

This team is going to be built with a POBO/GM and coach

on the same page and sticking to a plan. A high draft pick is an added incentive to stick to the plan when the losing gets old.

by Rumblebee on Feb 24, 2010 5:57 PM CST up reply actions  

The writing is on the

Wall, huh?

I don’t know, I think you should Turneround, it could be elsewhere…

Dark Love is a-Brewin...

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 24, 2010 8:10 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

Flynn needs minutes to figure it out. As much as I like to see “good basketball” and wins, and that’s not what Flynn is producing right now, he needs to be on the court.

I feel for Sessions, though.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Good read

Some of the shots Jonny was taking tonight had me literally cringing. Kind of like some of the shots Corey used to take.

by bgkrenz on Feb 23, 2010 10:25 PM CST reply actions  

Heat announcers

had Wolves as one of top four teams in terms of team 3-point FG % since January 1. Hah!

by littleboxes on Feb 23, 2010 10:37 PM CST reply actions  

That is really amazing

Look at what Ellington has been doing since January. He’s putting up Morrowesque percentages, which is EXACTLY why we drafted him. Kahn got that pick right.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 23, 2010 10:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Back to Brewer.....

Ellington’s 60% is like Brewer’s 45% from 3. Those are peak performance numbers that come back down. Again, my hope with Brewer is that he can end the season as a mid-30s 3-point shooter and continue to improve from there next season.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 23, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions  

what's really amazing...

…is that the Wolves are 269//791 from beyond the arc this year while opponents are 440/1199. They are getting obliterated from long range.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2010.html

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:32 AM CST up reply actions  

It's worth noting

Or rather, repeating, as it was mentioned in during the broadcast, but the Wolves are the 4th best 3-point team since the January 1.

by McCleak on Feb 24, 2010 7:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Percentage wise...

..yes, but this is an area where volume matters.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2010/splits/

In January they took 14.8 3pa/game and their opponents jacked up 23.9. This is probably a good thing in the sense that the Wolves don’t have enough good shooters to warrant 23-25 3pa/game but it’s still sort of misleading to say that they’re the best 3 point shooting team since Jan1. In Feb, they’ve done much better (16 to 16.9) but it’s still out of whack when placed in the context of their season (and since the beginning of the year).

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:10 AM CST up reply actions  

The context for the Wolves

Was that in the first two months, Corey Brewer couldn’t shoot, Love was injured, and Ellington wasn’t getting any burn. I don’t have the splits in front of me, but it’s reasonable to assume that’s a large part of the turnaround from beyond the arc. Could they be taking more? Absolutely. But to claim that they’re getting obliterated from long range, as you put it, is to imply they haven’t made good solid strides over the course of the season, which simply isn’t the case.

by McCleak on Feb 24, 2010 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

or..

…that they were realllly getting obliterated from beyond the arc before simply getting obliterated over the past 2 months ;)

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Volume

In the NBA, 3 pt shots come from hit outs from the post. We don’t defend the post well, causing us to have perimeter players double down. That leaves open opportunities for shooters at the 3 pt line.

Al does not pass out of the post. So, even if he is double teamed, we rarely get the kick out pass. So, not as many 3’s.

We are NEVER going to have any volume with Big Al inside.

by Just A Fan on Feb 24, 2010 8:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Love for 3!

It will be interesting how Love continues to develop as a 3-pt shooter. Can he be a Mehmt Okur type of big who they can run pick-n-drift-to-the-arcs with one a regular basis? He’s at 42% from distance this season.

Because I can easily see him regularly taking 5+ threes per game once roles on this team are better-defined.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:35 AM CST up reply actions  

That’s how he’s getting a large portion of his 3pters already, and he still has plenty of time to hit the boards. You don’t necessarily want him just camped out at the 3pt line waiting for kick outs or skip passes, but in pick and pops it’s great to have a big guy who can drain it like that. He and Rubio will be awesome to watch.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Disagree

The simple pass from post out to three point shooter is one of the few passes Al can consistently execute. I think part of the problem is the system. Too often he’s been in the high post (can’t post up, not enough room between him and the arc) or he’s in the low post, but the guy throwing the entry pass runs baseline around him, leaving no one behind the arc to hit (and making Al easier to double in my opinion).

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Disagree

how many times have we seen Al pivot around a double and triple team for a good 3 seconds before he finally gets his shot up?

Also, if his guy runs baseline, he is usually running to the other side of the floor. Either get the pass to him when he stops running (doesn’t take 3 seconds) or pass it to someone who can. Then the defense has to keep switching to the open guy and you move the ball around the perimeter until someone gets open or until you can get it back in to Al (or give the other team major props for their good team defense).

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Would Chase Budinger have been a better pick than Ellington?...

… my money says yes. Not nitpicking your argument; just curious to hear your opinion of the two players.

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

No...

but Omri Casspi would have been a better pick than Ty Lawson (or Jonny Flynn).

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

You know I actually enjoyed the Heat announcers last night.

I always have to watch via ADTE because I live outta state and they were less annoying than every other team’s announcers

by SF on Feb 24, 2010 2:56 AM CST up reply actions  

yes

that play by play guy actually had good word economy and a soothing attitude. very mellow broadcast.

by secretarykissinger on Feb 24, 2010 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

So much for wings as Problem #1

Without decent PG play, you have no chance. Just like we are finding out what interior D can do, we should give Sessions a chance to start at PG/play more minutes for at least a 5-game stretch. Let’s see what we have. Time for a change.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 23, 2010 10:47 PM CST reply actions  

The Lakers did it with Fisher

I think Sessions is a pretty comparable talent to Fisher. Fisher is a better long range shooter, but Sessions is better at driving and probably better at facilitation outside of the triangle (which, triangle or not, is still an asset that shouldn’t be taken for granted).

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

One sad note is Brewer's shooting percentages have been dropping in Feb......

Dec & Jan shooting percentage was around 47%… now between 41 and 43%……and dropping…

Not sure what has changed? shot selection….not balanced again or what?

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 23, 2010 10:52 PM CST reply actions  

What we saw in January was a hot streak

Players have good months, bad months, and months in the middle. My guess is that he peaked a few weeks ago and now he’s regressing to the mean. Let’s just hope his “new mean” is in the low 40s, not back down to the upper 30s. I never trust a turnaround as dramatic as the one Corey made.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 23, 2010 10:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Was overachieving before?

I hope not but at some point averages, well, average out.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 23, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice Post SNP

I don’t feel a need to add anything to what you wrote.

by Rumblebee on Feb 23, 2010 11:04 PM CST reply actions  

Al is hurt

He averaged a double-double in December and January, about 19 and 11. He’s at 14 and 7 in Feb. Yes, his minutes are down. But, for a while, he still looked pretty unstoppable in the low post. Now, he looks stoppable. He’s hurt. I don’t just think it’s that teams have figured him out. He’s just not moving that well.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 23, 2010 11:17 PM CST reply actions  

I've watched enough of Al's post moves to know

that you can’t figure that $h!t out. I still don’t understand why people buy his pumpfakes, but his pivots are nearly unstoppable unless you get lucky.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Team Jonny

The common sense reason for Team Jonny’s struggles is three part:

1) It has more court time against opposing starters;

2) It’s point guard is a rookie;

3) It’s best player has at least one bad knee, if not two.

I still enjoy the postgame wrap-ups, but this one is wildly off-base.

It is really interesting to see what a legit 7-footer does for the team, though. Rather than phrase it in terms of “what it does for Kevin Love” I see what it does for this team. Many of the old posters at The Rake used to complain all season during 2007-08 that Jefferson needed this kind of player. So instead, McHale added Love, and the problem wasn’t fixed. Kahn took a swing on Ryan Hollins, and probably whiffed. Darko is doing what we’ve been waiting for, for years. It’s really nice to see. Interior defense is really important, and neither Love nor Jefferson can provide it, without this type of player next to them.

by Andy G on Feb 23, 2010 11:22 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

uh huh *nodding*

1) Yup
2) Yup
3) Yup

Jefferson needs some time off to get healthy. Jonny needs to learn by coming off the bench. Darko is surprisingly effective. Can we keep him?

by DR_JPK on Feb 23, 2010 11:41 PM CST up reply actions  

No

All this enthusiasm for a guy who doesn’t want to play on this continent anymore. Its nice to see a 7 footer in a Wolves uniform that can actually make a few fundamental plays here and there but does anyone really think he’ll be back with us next year?

by Henry Savage on Feb 24, 2010 12:23 AM CST up reply actions  

I think it's a better percentage than 0% as Darko claimed..

But he’s solely focused on returning to Europe. It would have to be an incredible 26-game experience to change his mind on 5+ years of horrible NBA experiences. I don’t blame him for wanting to return. He knows he’s good and he knows he just needs to be in the right system. He’ll go to Europe, make a ton of money, and be one of the top players there for years.

by SF on Feb 24, 2010 3:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Certainly sounds

Like Rambis loves him, though, and I think that’s worth something. If it’s about loving basketball again, then I think we can compete with any European team – we’ve got a coach who supports him and likes him/plays him, fans that cheer him, and teammates who want him to succeed and value his role and production on the team. Is he going to get that in Europe? Maybe, maybe not. If it’s about simply washing his hands of the NBA, then we have no chance. We’ll find out either way soon enough.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

He is boosting his contract value for next year

…in Europe.

He is the type of guy we need into the future, not necessarily the actual guy.

I’m sure if that was written in German it would make more sense…..

"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."

by Auswolf on Feb 24, 2010 3:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Haha. And that makes perfect sense. But who are we gonna get that is his size.

The dude is 7’1" 275! That’s huge! Honestly, the closest things to him in the draft are Larry Sanders (6’10" 220), Cole Aldrich (6’11" 250), Hassan Whiteside (6’11" 230), and Solomon Alabi (7’0" 240). None of these guys possess anything even close to Darko interms of skill and Aldrich might be the closest in terms of size.

By the way, have you seen much of Jan Vesely play over there? There’s been a lot of talk on sites like DX about his ability to play defense and the SF position.

by SF on Feb 24, 2010 3:09 AM CST up reply actions  

In Australia?

"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."

by Auswolf on Feb 24, 2010 3:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I think this is the important point.

The realistic ceiling for some (probably most) of these guys is what Darko provides right now. If there is a way to sign Darko to reasonable two or three year deal, it becomes a lot easier to package our middling picks to move up. As I’ve written before, I normally hate that idea because of the general crap-shoot nature of the draft after the locks are gone. More chances are better. In this case, though, I think Darko frees up our draft strategy a bit.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Write it like Immanuel Kant, please

Helping verbs early, main verbs at the end!

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow,

I gotta think about that. Maybe diagrams from Sister Mary Monica’s class could come in handy.

by timmuggs on Feb 24, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Here's where it gets scary..

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100223&game=MINMIA

It’s not just bench vs. starters. Let me be 100% clear about what I’m saying: It has taken all of 2 games to expose this roster for what could happen with a legit 7 foot two way player. If Jefferson is injured then he shouldn’t be playing. He is playing and he’s playing awful. The amazing thing here is that no matter what his knee is feeling like, his defensive numbers and performance are exactly what we have seen in the past:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jeffeal01.html

I completely agree with you about phrasing this as “what it does for the team”. The team is better with Darko + Love vis-a-vis Jefferson + anyone else on the roster. That should be a disturbing idea for anyone who has watched this team. Their highest paid player has been shown up by a guy who was on the end of the Knicks’ bench a week ago. It’s also not like we can’t make a fair comparison here to what Love and Jefferson were doing together (compared to what Love and Darko are doing).

As for the Flynn rookie business, I would be more sympathetic if I thought he was any more of a point guard than Tyreke Evans. He’s ‘Reke without the size and that’s problematic, no matter what year he is. The Wolves are pushing the “these are rookie growing pains” line hard on their broadcast but I think they miss the fundamental problem here: he’s not a point guard.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:43 AM CST up reply actions  

popcornmachine

That graph shows Jefferson’s minutes aligning with Beasley and O’Neal. Love did not play much against those guys until the final 10 minutes — when the Heat went (+11). Love played against all of Joel Anthony’s 7.2 minutes — a (-8) for the Heat.

The starters/non-starters factor doesn’t tell the entire Team Jonny story. In fact, I think it’s the least important of the three. I’d say Jefferson’s knee(s) and Jonny’s inexperience are the most important.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 7:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Miami...

…played O’Neal, Beasley, and Haslem with a dash of Anthony. The graph shows the Heat not having much of a choice except to play 3 guys. I could have worded it better but that’s the point I was thinking in my head. If only my stupid brain would have routed the information correctly to the keyboard. ;)

Even if Jefferson’s knee is bothering him, it was bothering him while playing next to Love earlier in the year and we always will have that to compare to with Darko and Love’s minutes.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Plus, ahem, Darko is playing gassed

Everyone keeps helpfully providing the caveat that Jefferson is injured. Love’s playing next to a badly-out-of-shape Darko, too.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

From the looks of it though

O’Neal had his way with Al, and struggled more with Darko defending him. At the beginning of the second O’Neal’s group was -3 when Darko was in, and then improved greatly when he was out. Furthermore, the end of the game +9 for Miami was mostly due to Dorrell Wright – O’Neal’s big fat zero points, 1 reb and 1 ast in over 10 minutes of play is pretty notable, given that O’Neal ended the night with 18 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 assists.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Scroll up to the "ahem" a moment ago

If we’re spotting Al his defensive play due to this recent injury (and ignoring the body of work that is his entire career so far, which indicates he’s a poor defender who’s willing to work some but who will likely never be a par defender or better);

then,

Why, when we’re making the comparison to Darko in these two bleepin’ games, do we not also acknowledge that Milicic is playing himself into training camp shape at this point?

Big Al maybe shouldn’t be out there, okay. But Darko playing 20+ minutes when he just got off the bus after sitting for months, and clearly providing something the team’s been direly lacking…. That does not go away in this comparison because we think Jefferson’s gimpy. Milicic’s lateral movement and quickness aren’t going to be at anything like peak form right now either. After the first game, the guy said he was just trying to breathe out there….

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

He's not out of shape, he just hasn't been playing in games

This isn’t a Mark Blount situation. Unless there was a special situation that I’m not aware of, he’s been working out and practicing with the Knicks the entire season. His situation is no different than when Pech or Jawai play: he should be expected to not be ineffective just because he played 20-25 minutes.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

though the point was made on the broadcast the other night

that the knicks really don’t strain in practice much — d’antoni saves his players for real exertion during the games. darko hadn’t been getting into the games.

by secretarykissinger on Feb 24, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

good point

But on average, he’s more in “game shape” than “sitting for months.”

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

You bring up an interesting question

has there been a Blount sighting recently? I wonder how much weight he has put on…

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Al has NEVER in his whole career played with a decent supporting cast. Every year in his career has been a rebuild...

Only 1 rebuild in boston then traded… then 2 rebuilds here….

playing with a bunch of young players is a recipe for poor team defense.

Put jefferson on the floor with 7 or 8 players who understand team defense and play it and you will be amazed.

for the wolves I’d start by bringing in a good defense coach.. Thibodeau… in boston.

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 24, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

But I haven't seen that Jefferson understands or plays team defense

So, if the point is to build a team where everyone understands and plays like a tight knit defensive unit, why is Jefferson on the team?

by dropstep on Feb 24, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

You'll see when jefferson has the supporting cast to play good team defense.

If you put KG in his prime on this team, they would definitely be better than they are on defense, but hey would still be a bad defensive team… there just isn’t enough talent and much of the talent we have isn’t experienced.

I also question our coaches, abilities to coach defense. I think they should bring in a defensive coaching assistant…… like a Thibodeau…..

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 24, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with you, but the problem is

that one of those supporting cast members that most of us want to keep around is Kevin Love. We simply can’t go on with two bigs that need to be hidden on defense. One if fine; not two. So if I had to choose between the two, I’d rather go with the better all-around player still on his rookie contract.

I think Jefferson would look great on Charlotte, where they already have a plethora of athletic defenders but not enough scoring punch in the paint.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I generally agree with Andy

Seeing someone who shows hard on PnRs and clogs the middle is great. A real eye-opener for fans of this squad.

However, as I think I noted in the game thread, if you rely too heavily on the Darko-Love big pale frontline, it’s going to leave you without scoring in the paint, which I think will haunt eventually.

But…if Al is hurt, they should sit him. He really isn’t helping right now. And Sessions needs to play more.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 7:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Where I differ..

….is that I view it as something far more than an eye-opener. This is a “holy-crap we need to rethink things” sort of moment. For point number two, scoring in the paint is not the wave of the future for Kahn’s team. Al’s a Triangle dinosaur and the Darko developments have just made that all the more pronounced. It’s not just defense. On offense he’s been a revelation as well. He’s doing what a big in the pinch post should do. He’s the anti-Jefferson in every sense of the imagination.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 7:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Saying we need to keep Al because our post scoring will suck without him is really no different than saying we need to resign last year’s version of Corey Brewer because our perimeter defense will suck without him.

1) skill sets are replaceable
2) their value can be negated by other flaws
3) see #2, and ask your self why we are committing $12M of payroll to Al Jefferson

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 7:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, I didn't say we need to keep Al Jefferson

I was just injecting a small note of caution into a conversation that is maybe getting a few miles too far down the road given that we’ve seen Darko for parts of 2 games.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 7:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Nothing personal…I don’t find your views unreasonable. Just picking on the general view Jefferson’s low post scoring ability is untouchable/irreplaceable. I’ll readily admit that the guy is a great scorer in the post, but I think his flaws reduce the value of that strength so much that he doesn’t deserve the money, the minutes or the focus that this team has invested in him.

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 7:43 AM CST up reply actions  

not true

How many minutes did Al play with Darko? 4 or 5? I have noticed he plays better defense when he can sense the rest of the team around him wants to play defense, just like Mr. Love does. We can all agree that Sessions should be playing more but there is not much of a reason to play Al at the end of the year when he is still recovering and you want to give as much minutes to Darko as he can handle. Watching last nights game made me think that they will no longer trade Al next summer and will most likely wait one more year to evaluate the Al/Love experiment but until Al gets extended minutes with Darko the comparison between the two cannot be made.

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Pek

if we need paint scoring, we have Al Jefferson v2.0 waiting to come over. He won’t cost $12 million, and he’ll be OK coming off the bench. Say it with me now – Pek FTW!

Also, I agree with SnP’s ‘eye-opener’ rethinking thing, and would simply add that if this Team Darko/Team Jonny thing is true, then this year has been well spent (so to speak). We learned something incredibly valuable in our year of development, and that could make all the difference between us actually contending 5 years down the road versus just scratching for the playoffs.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmmm, if Pek comes over...

…would that be an incentive for Darko to stay? Homeys, etc?

by timmuggs on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Hey!

You’re from Europe, I’m from Europe…. Alright, I’ll stay!

by LoveTo on Feb 24, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I just hope

they all don’t alienate the rest of the team by speaking to each other in European.

by PoorDick on Feb 24, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

That would never happen in the AABA

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Pek a go-to guy?

He would certainly provide offensive balance and I can’t imagine he’d be any worse on D or the boards, but I don’t know if he can be that late-game, go-to guy you have in Al.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

No

I don’t think Pek would come here as a go-to offensive guy. If we take what SnP is suggesting (that the last two games are a watershed moment for this franchise) as true and follow it out a bit further, I think the point is that our go-to scorer isn’t a low post player. I think one of the things SnP is observing/arguing is that low post defense > go to low post scoring with no defense. This doesn’t eliminate the need for a go-to scorer, just changes the position said scorer plays, (which, incidentally, appears to be a better fit for our system anyways).

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

yes, I understated it

More than an eye-opener indeed. Two games of an out of shape non-all star and the difference is shocking.

Getting stops because the other team can no longer get to the rim unchallenged at will—who knew?

Actually, though the lane clogging is probably the big thing, the hard shows on pick and rolls have been the most noticiable things to me—it’s been so long since we’ve seen someone do that; I’ve just grown so used to the passivity on that set.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 7:24 AM CST up reply actions  

The most amazing thing about it..

…has been his anti-Jeffersonness…and I know, that’s not a word. I’m not saying that Darko’s the answer, but holy crap, someone like Darko is and that’s more obvious than ever. What’s becoming more and more clear is that this type of player + Love is going to be more of an impact than Jefferson + whomever. Jefferson’s payroll spot just became a whole lot more tenuous.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 7:33 AM CST up reply actions  

My concern...

is that there might not be a lot of guys “like Darko.”

Solomon Alabi could very-easily look just as clueless as Ryan Hollins. Let us not forget that, for all of Darko’s struggles in the NBA, he’s racked up 5 years of practicing against guys like Rasheed Wallace and Dwight Howard. It’s not inconceivable to think he’s learned a thing or two about defending the paint, along the way.

If this defensive upgrade remains this clear for the remainder of the season, it’ll be hard to watch Darko leave and expect a rookie to give us the same type of impact defense.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 7:42 AM CST up reply actions  

This

It’s quite obvious, having suffered through Ryan Hollins this year, not to mention such luminaries as Michael Olokawandi, that all 7-footers are not created equal.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 8:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I should also add..

that the coach who buried him on the New York bench cares very little about defense. His best big man in Phoenix was Amare and his best in NY is David Lee. That’s probably the worst coach for Darko from an x’s & o’s and overall philosophy standpoint.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 8:12 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd disagree with the D'Antoni take

The reason why Phoenix with 7SOL was better than it is now without D’Antoni was because he kept them as an average defensive squad when pace was accounted for. He cares about defense. He just plays at a higher pace than anyone else.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Maybe we can at least agree...

that David Lee and Amare Stoudamire are a lot better fits for a D’Antoni team than Darko Milicic. Throw in some attitude/psychological problems, and it isn’t hard to see how Darko ended up on the end of that bench. I bet Darko could get minutes playing for Doc Rivers or Mike Brown, to make two comparisons.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 8:32 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Anyone else

want to chalk up a point for our improved NBA player scouting as well? Everyone (nationally) laughed at this trade, if they noticed it all, but holy crap does this acquisition suggest that perhaps someone on this team recognized something about our squad and identified a very good (if not perfect) player-cum-skillset (think Latin, not gutter) to test their observation? In other words, not only was the FO able to identify the right kind of player to trade (let alone actually get him), but they were able to critique our own team well enough to recognize the need to begin with. Between Brewer and Ellington’s development and an increasingly adept and shrewd trade for Darko, I kinda getting weirded out by what appears to be a competent and dedicated FO.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

A tryout

He makes a lil over a mil a year, cant blame them for giving him a small contract to see if he could develop.

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I can’t fault the FO for giving a cheap tryout to a guy who, on paper, MIGHT one day give us something we need. How quickly we forget the way things used to be.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha.

Love the “Intentionally” line.

“It was an accident! We don’t know how this guy got $7 million from us, we swear!”

by LoveTo on Feb 24, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

We know one guy who is not like Darko

Al Jefferson. And that’s what’s so problematic about all of this. He is being paid to be The Guy and he’s been shown up in 2 games by an out of shape bench warmer from the Knicks. Imagine if this happened on any other team to their “best” player. This really is more insane than I think most people are thinking it is right now.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

yeah I'm sure Al gets this, too

If he’s hurt he should really sit himself down because this kind of stuff is not healthy, mentally-wise.

I still think he can be The Guy on this team – he doesn’t have to average 20 and 10 but they need someone to get buckets when things get tight and the Triangle isn’t unbalancing the defense as much as they need it to.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

It's lose-lose

Playing hurt and thus being outplayed by Darko hurts his reputation, but so does taking time off to rehab a sore knee. If we’re talking about trading him in the offseason, teams are a lot more likely to see his knees as a red flag if he’s actually missed games to them.

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 8:47 AM CST up reply actions  

where people get this idea that Al is playing hurt?

if he was really hurt, he wouldn’t be playing right now, it’s not like the Wolves are fighting for a playoffs spot.

he just quit plain and simple, he knows that’s he’s going to be traded.

by tanat-0s on Feb 24, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/84532692.html?elr=KArks:DCiU1PciUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Along with the ACL tear from 12.5 months ago, it was reported that Al hurt his other knee, last week.

I’m not sure if your info, or Jerry Zgoda’s, is more accurate — but that’s where we got the idea that he was hurt.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Don't remember who

but someone brought up the important distinction between
hurt and injured. Al is the former.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll just cite this old adage

You can play if you’re hurt, but not if you’re injured. This is especially true in football. Though there is the argument that your best player valiantly playing at 75 percent is doing more damage to the team than if they just played the less-talented but healthy scrub.

There’s also the possibility that Al’s just hurt enough to be getting fewer minutes to get some rest, while still being able to get out there. This also provides the team with more available minutes for Darko to get into a groove and show his stuff. Kinda as much of a win-win as this situation could be.

by nja700 on Feb 24, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

It is insane

but what are our options? Would you have accepted the Deng/Thomas offer from Bulls? The idea seems to have been to let Al play the rest of the season, get healthy and showcase him. Unfortunately, the opposite is happening. He’s hurt and being outplayed by Darko.

I mentioned this at the trade deadline, but if Al is traded it will be interesting to see if we get more than Deng/Thomas.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

We don't do little birdies on this site..

…but my money is on the idea that Al is going to be offered up as a sign and trade for someone like Gay or Joe Johnson and then they will attempt to sign the guy they couldn’t get (or Manu).

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

S-n-P...

… when you get a chance, explain the Manu thing at length? I like the guy a ton (he’s one of the most rewarding players to watch in the NBA), but is it a mentoring thing? A culture changing thing?

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't know about SnP...

… but, this seems like a pretty good reason to me.

by hopps on Feb 24, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Ginobli gets us wins, yes.

But for how long? If I follow S-n-P’s Wolves rebuilding philosophy (and I might not), I’m just curious about the “fit” of a piece like Manu in this plan.

Again, I love Ginobli. I don’t know many players in the NBA that so consistently bust their ass AND make the right decision AND flat-out get buckets. That dude is a stud. I repeat, a stud. But here? Now?

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

While he wasn't born in the US

he really hurts our Euro-building strategy. I can’t get behind that move.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Manu is admittedly phenomenal

He’s an absurdly balanced player. I’d love to have him, if not for the fact that his ankles are held together with paper mache. I don’t trust a guy at that age with those injury problems to be worth much in the short or long term, no matter how good.

by nja700 on Feb 24, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

System vs Individual

It’s obvious that the Wolves coaching staff is trying to institute a System or Philosophy of Play whatever. Guys like Love & Gomes should thrive because it emphasises taking what the defense gives you and multidimensional play from all over the court.

But the value of guys like Big Al, who can (when healthy) more or less impose their will on a defense, rather than taking what’s given, is really important for a team that’s serious about contending.

His defense needs work, even when healthy, but I think Al can be an important piece of this team. Is he overpaid? maybe.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Agree, to an extent

I think that Al’s value does come from his ability to score when the system breaks down, but I think what we’ve learned now is that we need that from the perimeter, not the interior. Darko’s Revelation is that we get more out of protecting the rim in our system than in having a go-to offensive force down there who doesn’t play very good D. Adding a potent perimeter/wing scorer is looking much more devastating as a result, and would probably enable better looks for Love and whoever’s in the middle.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

fair enough

I don’t think it matters much where that type of player is operating – wing or post. Just need a guy who can do that.

status quo/ trade/draft/FA, doesn’t matter to me.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

In the triangle

It is a lot easier for a wing to be that go-to guy.

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Awesome post SnP, I agree with everything...

…and now we must never speak of it again! If rival GMs find out the truth about Flynn and Jefferson, we won’t be able to trade them for anything!

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 12:11 AM CST reply actions  

seriously

The Jefferson contract is the upper decker that McHale left in the toilet that is the Wolves roster.

I guess our benchmarks are the Deng/Thomas proposal and what Sac received for Kevin Martin.

My guess is Jefferson’ value will continue to drop from here.

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 6:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Funny analogy

But I don’t think McHale is to blame. Jefferson’s contract was universally thought of as a bargain deal at the time of his signing it. Bill Simmons, whose trade value columns are actually fairly reliable, had Jefferson as the league’s 8th highest valuable (trade-wise) player in the league until his knee injury, after which he put him 17th. He was 39th this year.

Al’s value to his own team is much lower since he’s neither a good fit next to Love/Pekovic or in the offensive system we’ve decided to run. I still think he could be worth his contract to any team running a more traditional offense, assuming his knee injury hasn’t ruined him forever.

I do agree that we’re going to get a garbage package back for him if/when he is traded. At the very least, I’d like to see him moved to a team with cap space so we can get back a young guy on a rookie deal + raw cap space for him.

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions  

yes, benign at first then rotten and stinky over time :)

Are you really quoting Simmons as an impartial, reliable judge on an ex-Celtic’s trade value?

I hope and pray that you are right, but I think we’ll end up taking something similar to Carl Landry plus Joey Dorsey/Larry Hughes poo-poo platter…or worse.

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 9:11 AM CST up reply actions  

here's a question...

How many guy’s at Jefferson’s pay level need to have qualifiers attached to their performance?

As in, “he can be productive, as long as he’s next to an athletically dominant big guy that can provide constant help defense”…cause, you know, those aren’t cheap either.

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

To be fair...

… I think a lot of players at (or above) Al’s contract (which I think was pretty reasonable) come with similar qualifiers.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

To name a few who were recently moved: Martin, who needs strong defenders and guys who will get him the ball and stay out of his way. Emeka Okafor who needs a talented post-scorer next to him to make up for his weaknesses.

Others: Elton Brand, who pretty much just sucks right now. Andre Iguodala, who needs shooters a a real #1 scorer next to him. Lamarcus Aldridge, who needs a rebounder/strong post defender next to him.

I get what you’re saying, and it’s a valid point about how guys were getting big deals when they probably shouldn’t have, but Al isn’t an isolated case by any means.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

No no no

LMA has no faults, no qualifiers, and could only be better if he was Chuck Norris.

by Cedarpenguin on Feb 24, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha, crap, I forgot. He pays for that contract himself every time he takes a dump!

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks...

good list…and we agree…with the exception of LMA (who is, I think a questionable inclusion) these guys are all over paid to the point where they’ve killed their respective teams.

by DougW on Feb 24, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Hrm. I think he was massively overpaid for what he does, but it’s just opinion when it comes down to it. He’s useful because he happens to be in the right situation, and big deals can sometimes be forgiven in that context. It’s like Rashard Lewis – in a vaccuum he’s way overpaid, but he was a piece that team needed, so does the fact that he fits so well on that team justify the big deal? It’s at least arguable.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh yeah – Michael Redd too.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry, was typing a long post below...

Give me a little to look at the numbers. Anyone recommend a very reliable list that extends down to Jefferson and his salary peers?

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

How many players?

Besides the top 5-10 can be as productive with a total lack of talent on their team?

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

The thing about Kevin Martin

he’s made of porcelain. Jefferson has only had the one injury and he is still on his way back. So we have that to hold on to!

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

A schism?

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 12:44 AM CST reply actions  

The negativity is getting a little out of control.

Jefferson’s hurt and not playing well.

Flynn was definitely not my first choice either, but from the hysteria around here it’s like he never does anything right. Watching Flynn, I see some very positive things that go along with the negatives.

1) Flynn almost never gets his shot blocked around the hoop, making him the direct opposite of all of our other players in this regard.

2) Flynn does a great job of getting past his man, then slowing down and keeping his defender on his back hip. So far, he’s not doing a great job of turning this situation to his advantage and sealing the deal consistently with a good shot or a sweet pass, but it’s a key point guard skill that is relatively rare, and is the number one way in which Flynn resembles Chris Paul. And it’s good to see. Foye was never really able to do this.

3) Flynn can shoot. He’s not a deadeye accurate shooter, but his shot’s not broken, his percentages are not that bad, and his shooting will improve as time goes by.

He doesn’t really set up the big men for easy shots, and he does stop the ball with his pointless dribbling, but he is a point guard and he is capable of improving. The level of panicking about him is embarrassing around here.

by princelyfrank on Feb 24, 2010 1:04 AM CST reply actions  

I just can't believe...

….that in 2 games with legit 7 foot two way play (forget it’s Darko; they’ve received competent play from that spot on both ends of the court for the first time in almost forever) the team’s highest paid player and supposed building block has been sent to the bench during both contests’ crunch time. I think that level of a fundamental flaw deserves some arm waving. This is one of those “everything we think we knew about the team was wrong” moments.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:49 AM CST up reply actions  

a little overwrought but probably on target

Darko is a big man with skills that fit well in Rambis’ system. But I don’t think we know that much about this team, other than they are trying to accumulate talent and see what works and what doesn’t.

Big Al is struggling, and likely injured. Period.

Personally, I need a few more games to start with the arm waving but I’ll admit it’s getting tough to hold back.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 9:04 AM CST up reply actions  

how do you know he’s injured?

by tanat-0s on Feb 24, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

It was reported multiple times

His game-time availability was questionable in the Wiz game, and his game is very similar to what was seen at the beginning of the year.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Thank you Frank

Agree with you completely. Stop, I have been reading for almost a year now and love everything you do on here but for you to be this negative after just winning against a .500 team when the wolves were playing odd rotations and trying to work out rookie errors is kind of ridiculous. This is not November, they are not trying to win every game hence why Al is on the bench. Like you said it has been two games, that is enough for you to %100 believe that is Al is not right for the team? How hard would it be for you to be on horrible losing teams your entire NBA career? When Al wants to play defense I think it is pretty obvious that he can but really why risk getting injured when no one else wants to play D?

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

That's just a bit silly.

As the teams highest paid player, the ‘star’, and the veteran of he team it is Al’s responsibility to establish the tone and mindset of the players. He doesn’t have to be a stopper, but if he was out there busting his backside on defense… that might just be the best way to motivate some of the others, who you say just aren’t interested, to give more on defense. That is even more important on a young team focused on developing.

That’s just the point with Al. His contract is a good contract for a star player and team leader. He is a great low post scorer. There is a big gap there.

by Krotz the Wall on Feb 24, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

You are correct and right now he is our star player and leader. I am not opposed to trading him but only if the deal was good, if it is a sign and trade like SNP suggested that would be great. Just hating on the man who is really our veteran is kind of over the top when it is clear that the only thing that matters at this point is developing young talent and giving Darko minutes. We also all know that we should have taken Curry but I do not really know if I would have taken to many others in hindsight besides Flynn. I am not a huge fan of Flynn’s but at the same time we have all seen his potential as a facilitator at other levels and will hold my final opinion until at least the end of next year(if he is still on the team).

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

If this is a matter of Al..

….wanting (or not wanting) to play defense, then I’d have even nastier things to say about the guy, especially with his salary.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

"He is a scoring point" - Rambis

Whoever included that quote in their response, thank you. The low assists numbers do not mean Flynn is a disgrace as an NBA PG. His scoring did get us that all-important two points at the end, did he not?

As far as the questionable decision-making, does anyone here really think he takes that three pointer and then commits a foul on a three pointer at the other end – two or three seasons from now? He’s a rookie. Like it or not that’s significant.

Why turn this into a Team Jonny and Team Darko thing other than to hate on Flynn? I think mixing scorers and facilitators is a good thing. That in mind, these two combinations make the most sense in my opinion: 1) Flynn, Brewer, Gomes, Love, Darko; 2) Sessions, Ellington, Gomes/Brewer, Al, Hollins.

We also really need to get Al in there with Darko so we can see what he looks like next to a defensive-minded 7 footer.

by tddubb on Feb 24, 2010 2:31 AM CST reply actions  

This has nothing to do with assist numbers

And everything to do with him looking like a fish out of water out there while running sets. He’s promising in the open court and when everything breaks down and he can make a flashy in-the-air pass, but the other 90% of the time he appears to be nothing more than a shooting guard who is being baptized by fire in the hardest league in the world. Scoring point in this case is a sub 6 foot guard who can’t run the team’s offense and is terrible on defense. He’s shown very little promise in both of those areas. It’s very disturbing. He’s ’Reke without the size and defense.

Let’s imagine that 3 years from now Rubio doesn’t come over (FWIW: I think he will). Is Flynn the grand take-away from an off-season’s worth of assets being thrown at a single position in a pg-heavy draft season? It’s not panic time yet but it’s time to start shifting in your seat.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 6:58 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

he's going to take time to develop

I know SNP is getting tired of hearing this but it’s true.

I’m not a huge Flynn fan but I can see he’s a unique player and is struggling to find his niche in an NBA offense. I really don’t see him as a PG, or even a “scoring point” – he doesn’t have great PG instincts. And the Triangle is the absolute worst system for him right now.

I don’t know what the best comparison player-wise is for Flynn. I think the comparisions to Terry & Brooks are a little off. AI, too. All those guys have more finesse in their games, and have obviously had it their entire basketball lives, than does Flynn.

Flynn is a bit of a blunt object. His game is getting in the lane and drawing contact. I think as he matures and learns where he can and can’t get away with this, he will become more successful. And he’ll start to get more respect from the refs – I think he will get to the line a ton at some point. Which is a really valuable skill.

I’m not sold on him ever developing into a traditional PG, though. He will always be an oddball type of player, and I’m not sure how a player like this fits into the type of System-oriented team it looks like Kahn & Rambis are trying to assemble.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:10 AM CST up reply actions  

My whole point....

…is that I know it takes time for guys to develop but right now expecting Flynn to develop into a point guard is like expecting a pig fetus to change into a pony. He’s a shooting guard. A sub 6 foot shooting guard in, as you correctly point out, the worst system for him right now. This is worrisome on a number of fronts….number one being Kahn’s ability to correctly gauge draft talent.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

not a PG

Maybe that just needs to be accepted by all involved – I’m certainly on board but maybe the coaching staff/management need to think more closely about this.

That doesn’t mean he can’t be a productive player, or even justify his draft position.

And what I don’t get is right now the organization is very rich in PG talent. Do they really NEED Flynn to be a PG????

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes..

….if they are going to flip Sessions and Rubio doesn’t come over, that draft is a McHale level disaster, perhaps even more so.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions  

that's a lot of "ifs"

I’m not ready to hit the panic button just yet. This year is all about player development (or should have been) and next year probably will be, too.

At the same time, I didn’t really get the Sessions signing other than it seemed like a decent value and the possibility of “flipping” him. He isn’t really an ideal fit with the Triangle, either. Great pick-and-roll guy, not a great outside shooter.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 8:54 AM CST up reply actions  

That certainly depends on what we get for Rubio’s rights.

Also, Flynn’s numbers are pretty similar to Deron Williams as a rookie so I’m not going to panic yet.

Assts, FG%, steals, rebs, minutes are pretty close. Williams turned it over about 1 time less per game and shot better from downtown, but Jonny’s FT%, steals and points are higher.

Williams made a dramatic jump his second year…let’s hop Jonny does the same.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to imply that we’re definitely trading Rubio, just commenting on your hypothetical.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions  

In Kahn's defense...

He only had a limited time to scout/prepare for the draft considering when he was hired, so he might have been going off what Hoiberg, Jim Stack, and company were telling him.

On the plus side, Kahn was also very high on Tyreke Evans. So I give him a point for that.

by Blakeley on Feb 24, 2010 8:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Arguing against myself...

Then again, I don’t know how valid they were…

But supposedly Kahn did want to trade up to draft Thabeet. Yikes!

by Blakeley on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Thabeet has looked really good in limited minutes

I would take Thabeet over Flynn 1000/1000 times if the draft was held again today.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

a bold statement

I saw Thabeet play against the Wolves from a 5th row seat and he looked AWFUL. That’s a small sample size but the guy looked totally lost on offense.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions  

He sure looks nice on paper

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thabeha01.html

per 36 – 9 points (at a .580 clip) 10 rebounds and 4 blocks.

Obviously sample size is an issue, but how can anyone scoff at those numbers, especially in comparison to Flynn.

Also people talk about Flynn’s “potential”. How about the potential of a mobile 7’3 270

No contest.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

His per 36 numbers do look nice on paper

unfortunately he hasn’t been able to justify staying on the floor for 36 minutes this year. And it doesn’t look like he would be able to stay on the floor for that long even if he did justify it… wayyy to many fouls.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Thabeet is a project...

and it’s way too early to call him a bust. Years too early. Other than a fluke, broken-jaw injury, he doesn’t have the history of leg problems of many huge centers. If he stays healthy, he could have a really good NBA career.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you

It almost became cliche to rip Thabeet as a prospect last year. What people need to remember is that he’s only played basketball for a few years and he improved every single year at UConn. There was no reason to believe that he would stop improving. He was definitely a patience pick, but he could be the perfect compliment to come off the bench in a Gasol/Randolph/Thabeet rotation. I suspect he will be making a pretty big impact on games in another two or three years.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

While I predicted him to be a "bust"

before the draft, that was only because of his draft slot. I thought there would easily be 5-10 people who end up being better than him (size or not). I don’t want to call him a bust as a professional and I didn’t in my post (not that I think you were saying I did), but I do think his ability to get on the floor has been…. unfortunate. I think he will be better than I first gave him credit for, but I don’t think he will ever have the effect that Oden had even before this year. But who knows, that’s complete conjecture on my part.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

The fouls, yes.

At one point I was making the casual comparison to Theo Ratliff, who had lots of foul trouble early in Detroit when he was young. I looked at it, though, and Thabeet’s still committing more fouls. He’s got something to work on there.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

I couldn’t disagree with that statement more and I was open to the idea of drafting Thabeet at 5 or 6.

Thabeet looks awful.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Conversely,

It really doesn’t seem as if Kahn has moved, since that draft, to add any particularly new voices to that talent evaluation process.

I actually asked him what the Wolves are doing to gain a systemic edge in talent evaluation during Sunday’s broadcast. The POBO’s response amounted to “Sometimes it comes down to leg work.” At some point he seems to think working “hard” in the same old ways is the answer.

(What I was hoping for was a nod in the direction of advanced stats or something….)

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Limited

Kahn is stuck with the current FO guys until the end of the year due to their contracts. I think we’ll see new guys come in this summer.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Even so,

Kahn’s answer to “How do you evaluate talent better?” was basically that you have to work hard. He didn’t even say “more scouts.” He didn’t say something Mark Cuban-esque or Daryl Morey-esque about seeing the numbers in better ways. Just “do the leg work.”

I’m not sure Freddie Hoiberg working harder is going to result in dramatically different results in terms of choosing between two (or five) different players.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Feb 24, 2010 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

It'll help some

McHale’s version of working hard was telling everyone that he tried and failed to do stuff and then said that “making trades is hard in this league.”

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll bet McHale was like a Blazer or GSW fan

in how he valued his players…
“I’ll trade you Jefferson and Foye for Lebron and a future first.”
silence
laughing
click
“Making trades is hard in this league… Hey Danny, any ideas?”

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

No love for the Mayor? ;)

I catch your vibe, and I guess my sense is that for as open as Kahn is about everything, he’s also very calculating in his openness. Granger-Big Al? Who saw Darko coming? Alando Tucker? No, these aren’t very big moves, but always seemed that McHale telegraphed his intentions so that everyone else knew what they were and we’d hear all these rumors. With Kahn I almost get a sense of the opposite – we hear what he wants, but there apparently is a lot more going on behind the scenes that we don’t hear about.

Kahn also seems like a guy who’s pretty happy to use any and every advantage available to him. If not an outright in-house stats guy, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s getting this kind of advice from somewhere else. I don’t think he’s like Bill Smith and the Twins who still don’t use any of that stuff, preferring their eyeballs and experience.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Rookie game?

I agree on your assesment of Flynn except for when you watch the rookie/soph game. When playing with great players it was nothing but great passes including behind the backs and anything else that he willed into working. Couldn’t find right away but wasnt it like 7-8 assists in some 15 mins? This year having so many passes bounce off of Hollins and Loves hands has to be hard mentally for Flynn and I can understand his desire to focus on scoring this year and wait till we get more competent wing help. That being said I yelled at the TV 5-6 times last when Flynn should have dished to Brewer on a fast break.

ESPN
News: Flynn accumulated 14 points (6-of-13 FG), six assists and seven rebounds in Friday’s loss to the Bulls.
Spin: Despite measuring in at just over 5-11, Flynn plays bigger than his size and pulls down a surprising amount of rebounds. Even more shocking, Friday’s seven wasn’t even his season high. He remains under the radar amongst rookies, but owners will gladly take this sort of production every night.

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

He certainly outplayed Jennings in Rookie/Soph game.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to read too much into this...

But I generally agree. The comparison I would make is Wally, who got benched halfway through his rookie year, then won MVP as Soph in the Rookie game, and eventually turned into a 16-18 ppg player. Basically, what both showed in those games was that they hadn’t reached their respective ceilings yet.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

He also looked pretty solid in the Summer League

It’s the overdribbling thing that is really disturbing to me. How do you teach a guy to make quicker decisions with the basketball? Isn’t that an instict that develops after years of playing the game as a youngster? His instinct is to size things up while pounding the ball into the ground. Not good.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

For a shooting guard...

…Flynn’s 6.7 assists per game average in college was pretty good.

by CourtsideATX on Feb 24, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

but if you watch Flynn, he just isn't a very good passer... at least not yet.... too many passes at guys ankles... would be a place to start.... I keep seeing the one thrown to Love near the end of the game...

Most of Flynn assists come while passing the ball around the horn…..simple ball movement….

Few of them are set up by Flynn’s movement

And even when Flynn passes to the right player, rather than the pass going to the chest, so the shooter can get it up in rhythm. It goes left, right, high, ankles again …. you get the idea.

I think Flynn will learn, but don’t think he should be starting unless we are showcasing him to move him. We could give him the same minutes off the bench.

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 24, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Flynn reminds me of...

… a young Cuttino Mobley. Both were/are undersized, both had/have nice hops and a decent jump shot, and both were/are pegged as point guards but ended up much more comfortable as scorers/“combos.” These qualities could describe Foye and Bayless too. Jonny’s upside just doesn’t look very high, and that’s a bad thing when a guy is drafted sixth overall ahead of the Currys, Jennings’, and Lawsons of the world. The best-case scenario seems to be Aaron Brooks, and even that seems like a long shot unless Jonny totally overhauls his game and, you know, learns to run the offense and find open teammates. It’s really discouraging to see a guy who among the NCAA’s assist leaders last season consistently unable to spot and hit the open man.

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

My take on the Flynn pick is this...

… Prior to the Flynn selection we knew a few things:

(1) We had the rights to Ricky Rubio, one of the most highly coveted PG prospects in years.
(2) We had a running philosophy in place.
(3) Most running teams are heavily dependent on a point guard.
(4) We had a mid-first pick in a PG heavy-draft.
(5) Our team culture needs to be addressed.

Kahn makes the obvious move of selecting Rubio at five. We worry about his desire to play in MN. We know it’s unlikely he comes this year because of financial concerns. We still want to build a running culture. This makes having a dynamic point guard imperative. We have to take another point guard. (I agree with Kahn so far, by the way.)

Kahn surveys the remaining PGs in the draft. All have questions attached to them.
(1) Flynn: Undersized, more of a combo than a true point. On the plus side, elite athleticism, leadership skills.
(2) Curry: Concerns about his athleticism and position; can he guard NBA point guards? On the plus side, elite shooting and solid basketball instincts. Curry refused a Minnesota workout.
(3) Jennings: Concerns about his frailty and productivity (or lack thereof) in Europe (doesn’t this look like bust material?!). Perhaps more style than substance. On the plus side, great court vision and game changing speed.
(4) Lawson: Undersized, perhaps ceiling has been reached. Career back-up? On the plus side, statistical magic at UNC, great traditional PG profile, speed.
(5) Holiday: Underdeveloped, relatively low productivity. Plus side, lots of potential, better NBA frame than any of the other remaining PGs, defensive commitment.

I leave aside Teague (strength, athleticism, true position), Beaubois (unknown, raw), Collison (size, potential) and Maynor (probably most relevant here).

I think Kahn’s commitment to improving perimeter strength/athleticism plays heavily in his decision (strike against Curry and Jennings). If the player fails, it absolutely can’t be because his body won’t let him on the floor. Skills can improve somewhat (although I concede that court vision isn’t one of these things), genetics cannot. We need someone who can play both ends of the floor.

Unable to find a suitable alternative solution, Kahn selects at 6 one of the three remaining athletic point guards (Lawson, Flynn, Holiday) who is ready to contribute to a team badly short on talent (Holiday probably could not) yet has potential to exceed his current playing level (Lawson is what Lawson will be [which is a hell of an undersized basketball player]). Already possessing the best PG in the draft, Kahn goes with a reasonable pick: Jonny Flynn.

I just don’t see how this is fundamentally bad logic. I’m not thrilled with the pick, either, but I don’t think it was terrible talent evaluation or terrible management of a team’s assets. It was a pretty crappy draft, and most of these guys I think will be sixth men on championship teams, should they ever be so lucky to play on winning squads.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm not fully buying the "looking like a fish out of water"

For a website that does stats-based analysis, to say that he “appears to be nothing more than a shooting guard” seems questionable. What we know is that this season, as a rookie, he has a positive WS, a 13.5 PER, a 23.8 AST%, and a .454 eFG%.

Sessions, having had two more years to develop, has a higher WS, but essentially the same PER, AST%, and eFT% (13.3, 23.4, .476).

We know (right?) that rookie PGs not named “CP3” take time to develop. Why, subjective appearances aside, should we believe this won’t be the case with Flynn?

by losDelFuego on Feb 24, 2010 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

don't forget though

that earlier in the sequence where flynn got those all-important points he totally ignored or at least overlooked a WIDE OPEN AL JEFFERSON standing in the middle of the lane with his arms outstretched asking for the pass. al could have set up a drum kit and played the solo from “wipe out” in the time he was standing there bereft.

i guess what i’m saying is that instances of flynn’s offensive mentality like this one make it easy to wonder if he’s also not helping al’s productivity either. if al’s going to do anything you have to look to get the ball to him. this is a problem with team jonny.

by secretarykissinger on Feb 24, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

drum solo

I prefer the drum solo from “Moby Dick” over any other. I would love to see Big Al take a crack at that one.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

More cowbell!

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree. He's a Rook--give him a break.

But let’s stop waiting for him to be a 10-apg creator.

Jonny Flynn thinks he is the second coming of Allen Iverson. He plays the same way. And honestly, if he makes a few more of those layups/close shots last night—he probably scores 22—which is comparable to an AI rookie box score.

I’m certainly not claiming that Flynn is AI 2.0. If anything he is Aaron Brooks 2.0. I’m not opposed to his style of play, and I think it can be successful, but it needs to be from a 6th-man role—not as a team’s starting PG.

by SF on Feb 24, 2010 3:05 AM CST reply actions  

I don't want 10 apg..

….I want him to be in the general neighborhood of Sessions when it comes to on/off or +/- numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jeffeal01.html

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MIN.HTM

This is about being a functional teammate and two way player at his position. He’s not even close right now and frankly, that bugs me every time I watch this team lose a close game.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 7:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Team Darko

Jefferson apologists are out there in full force. Fact: he’s been on the team for 3 seasons now and never showed any signs of consistent defensive effort. Pull any excuse that you want: injuries, bad teammates, out of position, but that fact remains.

by tanat-0s on Feb 24, 2010 4:23 AM CST reply actions  

I have to say I did like Rambis keeping Flynn in there. He was obviously making important mistakes but how is he gonna learn to bounce back from making mistakes. It’s about learning.

Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 24, 2010 6:16 AM CST reply actions  

Yojimbo - I love that movie.

I think Gomes needs to pick a side, either Team Darko or Jonny. He is not Kuwabatake Sanjuro.

by Menyun3 on Feb 24, 2010 6:20 AM CST reply actions  

Jefferson and Flynn Trade...

Okay, we know Memphis would take this deal (because they offered it), the question is would Golden State and would Minnesota?…

To Memphis…
Monta Ellis

To Minnesota…
OJ Mayo
Hasheem Thabeet
Kelenna Azubuike

To Golden State
Al Jefferson
Jonny Flynn

ESPN is down or else I’d link to the trade machine. But who wins this deal?

by Blakeley on Feb 24, 2010 7:26 AM CST reply actions  

I would murder a hobo for this deal...

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions  

It's not even a bad deal for Golden State...

Memphis just gets raped, but Memphis is the one that has already offered this deal.

by Blakeley on Feb 24, 2010 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I think GS takes a whipping too

assume Ellis and Jefferson are equal (inefficient volume scorers). Although I think Ellis is less stoppable than Jefferson, Jefferson’s skill sets are more unique. Still, with that assumption it becomes Flynn for Azubuike, which is ludicrous. Plus, I don’t see why they need Flynn, although he’s a better fit for their system than for the Wolves.

by dropstep on Feb 24, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Did Memphis really offer this?

I’d strongly consider it, especially if we can actually get Pekovic to come over next year to replace Al.

by princelyfrank on Feb 24, 2010 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

It was actually

The “kill a hobo” clause that gave Kahn cold feet about the deal. C’mon, David! This is the NBA! It’s a business!

by nja700 on Feb 24, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I love how every trade scenario I've seen lately

has been based around the MEM/GSW offer that was reported. Funny how everyone always seems to insert the Wolves with them getting the Memphis portion of the deal…

I’d love for it to happen, but I have to imagine Memphis will have come to their senses by the time they’re able to make trades again.

by John Doe on Feb 24, 2010 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

those rumors...

coincided with Memphis’ worst stretch since the Iverson Era (all 2 weeks of it.)

What a stupid franchise. They had things really going well for them, and then they start shopping one of their best players.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 9:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Really? Who?

Gay? All I’ve seen are Mayo & Thabeet.

by rickyp on Feb 24, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

You don't think

Mayo is one of their best players?
I’m sure that’s who he was talking about.

Dark Love is a-Brewin...

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 24, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

I've read in a few places

that Thabeet does not like basketball very much. He is playing to make $$. That would worry me. Not sure if it is true, but the writer (from Hoopsworld I think) claimed to have spoken to some of Thabeet’s previous coaches.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 24, 2010 9:12 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't love my job either

but I still try to kick ass at it because I just love money that much.

by princelyfrank on Feb 24, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

In a heartbeat, but I doubt GSW wants Jefferson (doesn’t fit their style) or Flynn (they have Curry).

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

The most realistic but ideal trade would probably be...

Flynn for Jason Thompson. We know that Sacramento loved Flynn, and if they decide this summer that Evans probably isn’t a point guard (maybe the trade of Martin hints that they kind of believe that) then this could be a good route for them.

by Blakeley on Feb 24, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Has anyone else ever noticed

that you can’t spell wOLvES without ‘lose’?

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Or without wOLVEs..

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

or love(s)

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Looking forward to the TWolves

Scrabble Edition. Or anagram night at the Target Center.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

OLVE – LOVE

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Props to Mplax, too..

… didn’t realize his LOSE was already on the board. I read wOLvES as ‘OLES’, a testament to my Nordic heritage. I’ll finish sentences from now on.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Since this is a Jonny/Darko thread...(no H in Jonny)

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Team Darko

The issue with Team Darko is it doesn’t have a go-to scorer. That’s what a healthy Al Jefferson gives you. If the Wolves can find that guy in the draft or via trade/FA, then Big Al is less necessary.

Team Darko will certainly be able to manufacture offense and probably play better defense. But when it comes down to one possession, there is nobody on Team Darko I can see imposing their will on the opposing defense and getting that big bucket. Al can do that.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 9:08 AM CST reply actions  

Team Darko would really benefit from John Wall — but even then, I think there needs to be some balance on offense.

If by some miracle Darko’s attitude takes a 180 in the next two months, and he is a clear-cut solution to the “3rd Big” problem, it’ll be just that — the Love/Jefferson/Darko trio would divide up minutes and we’d see combinations of each. Jefferson-Darko might have just as good of defense as Love-Darko. The offenses would be different — one would have more passing and cutting, the other would have more isolation matchups on the block. Depending on the team we were facing, one would work better than the other.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

yes this would work

And is probably the ideal situation. Bringing in a rookie big man who will take time to learn the NBA game & Rambis’ offense is not the Rx for success, but it will probably work over time.

I really have my fingers crossed that Darko is For Real and coming back next year.

by highpockets on Feb 24, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Go to scorer

The team definitely needs one, preferably from a position other than the low block (IMO).

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

How great would

Evan Turner fit into “Team Darko?”

by LoveTo on Feb 24, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Excuse me

for drooling a bit there.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Speaking of writing on the wall

It almost makes too much sense to add Turner to this team, but then move Al and Flynn for other pieces. The only big question to be answered then is whether or not you believe Turner and Rubio can play together? Somehow that seems like a better question to be asking than whether Al and Love can play together.

And just to be clear, the writing on the wall I’m talking about is Al and Flynn being chips used in acquiring Turner if can’t just draft him outright.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

As a Flynn apologist, even I must admit that he should have been yanked last nite

There were a number of times that I found myself yelling at the TV as a result of Jonny’s horrible decisionmaking. I still don’t think this means Jonny is a bad player or was a bad choice at #6. All I’m saying is that in last night’s game, Flynn clearly should have been benched in the fourth quarter.

by BVP on Feb 24, 2010 9:14 AM CST reply actions  

If we draft Hassan Whiteside in June...

… in two years we’ll all be asking each other, " Who was that Milicic guy?"

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 10:32 AM CST reply actions  

the "potential" thing

S-n-P askes (can someone please explain the “potential” thing?):

Potential is the difference between Corey Brewer two years ago and Corey Brewer today, the difference between Kevin Love’s three point shooting last year and his three point shooting this year. Potential is the reason young teams never win championships. Potential is the reason that players like Jordan, Bryant, and LBJ couldn’t lead teams to championships until they had been in the league several years. Potential is the fact that players usually do get better during their first few years in the NBA. Sometimes players do not get better, and those usually have very short careers. So to speak of Flynn’s potential is to project that he should be a better player next year and a better player yet two years from now. But he won’t be a different player with different tendencies.

by Charadrius on Feb 24, 2010 10:42 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

I think his point is..

Where is this potential that is inherent to Flynn and not every other young player. People keep asserting that Flynn has more “potential” than other options like Sessions and it frankly is not clear why.

He does have great athleticism which I think often gets people think “potential”, but he is completely lacking in probably the single most important “potential” feature which is size. He is also lacking in another (I think) underrated “potential” predictor which is BBall IQ.

Nobody is confused over the fact that young players get better. The confusion is over why anyone thinks Flynn will get better at a faster rate than anyone else, or that his ceiling will be anything worthwhile.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree with this...

… but the potential is attributed more often to Flynn than to other players because he possesses elite athleticism (though his size limits this a bit). This is also the reason why Hollins and Brewer wear the “potential” tag. Flynn has also shown glimpses of productivity in most facets of the game relevant to his likely position: solid offensive capabilities, ability to penetrate and get to the line, decent shooter, physical ability for and commitment to defense.

I guess my point is that Dale Jr. in my ’95 Lumina might be able to beat me in a race where I drive his car, but I doubt it. Most of the time, elite basketball players marry refined skill to elite athleticism. There are exceptions to this rule, but if you are looking for an NBA basketball player, especially one around whom you can build a program, you have first and foremost to consider athleticism. Where you find this without refined basketball skill, you speak of potential.

I realize I’ve left aside Sessions here.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I just think I rate height higher than you would. Height is so central to basketball at any position that I just don’t see a player getting around it without some special mental superiority, which doesn’t appear to be present in Flynn.

I do think that Flynn’s athletic package is special among basketball players, but that is largely because must young athletes with Flynn’s combination of physical traits end up in sport that better suits them. he would have made a hell of a DB in football, or a hell of a soccer player if he grew up in Europe. I just don’t see him as much of a basketball player.

by vjl110 on Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Flynn's potential

Has elite athleticism, can shoot from range (unlike Sessions), can create his own shot and get to the line, good intangibles.

He had good court vision in college…

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonny-Flynn-1245/

…but hasn’t shown it here. Probably has something to do with the fact that he’s a rookie and he’s not playing in point guard friendly, wide open system.

by CourtsideATX on Feb 24, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Or that the game is much, much faster.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Sessions has potential to shoot from range...

He is just less likely to realize it at this point and has less to build on.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't mean to rain on the parade...

… but it strikes me as pathetic that so many Wolves fans are this excited about Darko. I know that some people only expect Darko to be here temporarily and are enjoying the ride, and other people are really excited because they get a preview of what it means to have a seven foot defender, and I know SnP did some pop psychology and his diagnosis was that we’re excited about Darko because Darko is a symbolic representation of the average Wolves fan, but let’s not lose sight of the following fact: WE’RE TALKING ABOUT DARKO MILICIC, PEOPLE!

Darko stinks. He always has, and probably always will. He has stunk on every team he’s ever played on, he’s been given multiple chances on a number of teams, and he’s considered among the biggest busts in NBA Draft history. There’s near certainty that he won’t be with the Wolves next year, and even if he reverses course and comes back, how much better off can we really expect to be? Seriously, how much?

I’m not trying to make fun of anyone or pick any fights, but to suggest that a two-game “Darko effect” is evidence—some seem to view it as incontrovertible evidence—that we should trade our best player, who’s one year off of a 23/12 campaign that ended in knee injury, and find a “Darko-like” guy to pair with Kevin Love would sound like lunacy to most of the outside world.

Let’s get a grip, Canis commenters. Darko didn’t ride in a white horse, and neither he nor another other seven-foot disappointment like him will change the fact that we’re a team with fundamental problems that can likely only be addressed through good luck in the lottery—i.e., drafting John Wall or Evan Turner.

Sorry for the negativity of this post, but I think we need to ingest a large dose of reality and bring the Darko hype down a few thousand notches.

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 10:49 AM CST reply actions  

No way

I’m not letting you rain on my Darko Parade. He’s going to justify that #2 draft slot before this is over, and it’s happening in a Timberwolves uniform.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Andy G, I know you're a true believer...

… and can’t be persuaded that Jefferson actually has more long-term potential to help the Wolves than a “Darko-like” player; I was preaching to those “moderates” who I might still be able to reach. :)

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

As far as I'm concerned...

we’re back at the 2003 Draft. In other words, it’s an open debate after LeBron: Darko or Melo? Definitely not going with Bosh or D-Wade. Not after what we’ve seen this past week.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Irf you are saying Darko isn't Bosh or Melo thats clear, but that does not mean that Darko has no talent.

Could he be a good defensive center? yes, if he wants to be.

Could he be as good as a guy like Dalembert, who we’d like to get but is too old and too expensive, yes!

Thats the hope, not that he suddenly justifies being the #2 pick in the draft, but that he fills a need on this team well, and in theory, we can keep him if he is convinced he wants to be here.

If we take another big in the lottery and haven’t traded Jefferson or Love I don’t think he will stay, because more than anything he wants playing time.

But if we can promise him playing time and mean it… he might change his mind and stay…

by Kevin Love Jefferson on Feb 24, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

No other team's "best" player in the league..

…would be in this situation. I also think you’re misreading my main point. I’m not saying that Darko is coming in on a white horse to save this team. I’m saying that he has exposed several aspects of this squad in 2 games and that’s something to worry about. Darko matters because an out of shape bench player from the Knicks just put an $11 mil/year guy on the bench in the 4th quarter of 2 consecutive games. That’s horrifying and that’s the fundamental point about why he matters. Yes, we’re talking about DARKO MILICIC and we’re doing so in relation to Al Jefferson. Again: that’s horrifying. That’s why it’s horrifying. An all-time draft bust just sent the Wolves “best” player to the bench during clutch time. I haven’t suggested anything above and beyond this basic point.

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

No other team's "best" player in the league...

would play through Jefferson’s knee problems, in Feburary, on a team projected to finish short of 20 wins.

Normally, they sit out the remainder and hope for lottery luck.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

He's not a hero...

…he’s a well-compensated athlete and we have no idea what is going on (or not going on) with his knee. For all we know there could be some things going on between him and the coach and it’s being pitched as him having an issue with his other knee. Also, we have no idea if other teams’ best players simply don’t complain about minor ailments. This is an impossible thing to measure.

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by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

And as such it qualifies my present willingness to critique Jefferson.

by TheH on Feb 24, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I say it because I don't know

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by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Who says Darko played because he is better?

Darko just got done saying that he doesn’t like to lose and one of the reasons he would not really stay with the T-wolves. So what does Rambis do but put him in a game and let him hear the final horn so that he can think I helped this team win and they can win with me. I like to think that most of Rambis’s coaching right now is mental games(zen-apprentice). Was it not two years ago when the HORRIBLE Heat team sat Wade the last 1/4 of the season because of a “knee injury” that everyone agreed he could play through? So if you were running that blog would you say run Dwayne Wade out of town because he is not playing like a star? We all knew they clearly wanted to get a high pick(Beasley, Turner) so where is the difference when we sit our best player to develop talent?

by TheMorningAfter on Feb 24, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

He wasn’t just in for the final horn, though, he was in for most of the 4th quarter.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Didn't say he's a hero...

but he’s in a position that many star players don’t find themselves in: playing through injuries on a terrible team, in the second-half of the season. It’s not impossible to measure his ailments — he had ACL surgery less than a year ago, and was barely cleared to start the season. If that isn’t objective medical evidence, then nothing is. The other knee is harder to measure, as a fan, because nothing has been reported about it.

If there’s a problem with Rambis or other outside factors, of course we don’t know that. Same with Love, whose minutes drop, mysteriously, from time to time. We can’t get inside the heads of the players and coaches.

But the Jefferson-haters out there, and I think you’ll acknowledge that you’re one of them, and have been long-before this season, conveniently ignore and downplay the knee injury. It certainly affects Jefferson physically, and it may well affect him mentally, also. Needless to say, this off-season is a big one for him. He needs to get back to his old self – a guy who was the clear-cut best player on the Timberwolves and had the look of an All-Star post player. That isn’t the player we’ve seen since his ACL tear, save a game or two where he seems to put it back together, like against Memphis a while back.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree

He hasn’t just “lost” those great low-post moves. I hope we see some more of those Memphis like games later in the season if/when he heals up a bit.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 24, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Bucks play better without Michael Redd, who is every bit their “best player” as Al is ours.

by TWolvesFanInLA on Feb 24, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Lots of teams' fans have a love/hate relationship with their best player

Look at Sacramento and Kevin Martin? Or going back further, Ewing and the Knicks? Anytime a guy takes lots of shots, the fans wonder “Hmm, he scores a lot, but do all these missed shots hurt us more than the made ones help us?”

Our situation here with Big Al is hardly unique. Hell, look at the Vikes and both Favre and Peterson. They win us tons of games but also throw dumb interceptions and fumble inexplicably.

by princelyfrank on Feb 24, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll take Bogut

over Redd any day that ends in y

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

T-Wolves version of Chris Carter?

How about Darko as the Timberwolves version of Chris Carter? Unfortunately, I can’t think of any basketball players who were tossed away be one team and came back to have an all-star career with another.

by Charadrius on Feb 24, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Chauncey Billups springs to mind...

Which also serves as an argument for giving Flynn a little patience. Boston gave up on Billups after 51 games. Notice that he was a sub-par distributer (like Flynn) his first 4-5 seasons. Guys who aren’t pure PGs can sometimes learn how to run a team with the right attitude and coaching. I don’t have any idea if that will happen with Flynn, but don’t dismiss the possibility.

by Dumbhead62 on Feb 24, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, we had a whole thread discussing how pathetic our Darko excitement is

so…yeah.

As for trading Al…opinions differ, but it’s been a subject of discussion for far longer than Darko has been around.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I've been out of town & offline...

… so I missed it. And it doesn’t matter if there was or wasn’t a previous thread, that does nothing to change the fact that there’s a weird, unhealthy mania swirling around this forum.

by Shogun on Feb 24, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

"Weird, unhealthy mania"

I like that phrase. It pretty much sums up Wolves fandom.

Kudos

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed..

…it will soon be a header

Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 24, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Great. I was hoping for that.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 24, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

notes

One thing in Flynn’s favor is his humility—I know that one can overstate an athlete’s “good guyness” as somehow translatable onto the court, but I do firmly believe that he’s going to learn from his mistakes in the off-season when he’s had some time to process them, and develop his game more. He’s not a Steve Francis type.

Sessions I see more as a Stop-n-Pop’s namesake type PG. It all for me does come down to Rubio, and which player should back him up, and what identity the 2nd unit will have.

BTW, does anyone think Brewer could get any run for M.I.P. this year??

by Rasho Revolution on Feb 24, 2010 10:56 AM CST reply actions  

Brewer

Probably not. First of all, nobody pays attention to the Wolves, second of all, only if he kept up his January pace all year, which isn’t happening.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 24, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Team Darko!

I really hope we can re-sign this guy. Darko! Darko! Darko!

As for Flynn, I remember an interview with Rambis last year when he was asked how long it would take for Flynn to learn to play in the NBA, and he said “years”. I think Rambis figures that Flynn will not listen to him unless he is a) playing and b) losing. The unspoken part of Rambis’s answer is, of course, “maybe never”.

by Dave T on Feb 24, 2010 11:07 AM CST reply actions  

Aldrich

Seems like our best bet as far as acquiring a Darko-type player in the near future if Darko decides to leave. He’s not quite as big, but he’s still got a mammoth wingspan, a nice frame and seems every bit of 6’11. Give him a few years to fill out and I think he’ll be an excellent paint-clogger and all-around defensive big guy with a high BBIQ.

He may well go too high to be obtainable without using our #1, but he should be at the top of the list of targets to move up in the draft for.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 11:50 AM CST reply actions  

agree

He consistently shows defensive ability and IQ at the highest level in college hoops. Of the big men prospects, this year, I’d expect the most, defensively, from Cole.

by Andy G on Feb 24, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Especially because the only knock I’ve heard on him was that he wasn’t athletic or quick enough for our team. Darko isn’t amazingly fleet of foot either (he is for his size, but not in a general sense), and he’s so far managed to make a big impact defensively. I think Aldrich could have a similar effect on our D with his smarts and toughness.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

He gets out and challenges people though

He’s surprisingly mobile for how huge he is. And he is huge. He may not be 7-feet tall, but he has a massively wide frame and a huge wingspan. I bet he plays as big as Darko does because of this. On DX’s site he leads all of the legit Center prospects in defensive rebounding and blocked shots. Plus he is an excellent outlet passer.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly. He plays like Darko does – good smarts, challenges shots, shows on pick and rolls etc. Darko has shown us the kind of impact that a big body who plays smart D can have. Given that I don’t hold out much hope for keeping him here, I think Aldrich would be the ideal second pick for this team. I mean, he’s even the hometown kid! Get it done Kahn! Turner and Aldrich!

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

Solid player. I would be bummed if that was the guy they got with the MIN pick, however.

by Casperkid23 on Feb 24, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Ditto. We need our all-star #1 player. But someone’s going to get a very solid, starting-caliber C with Aldrich. I’d love it if we were able to move up into the 8-12 range and nab him..

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't know if that's realistic, to be honest.

Cole has been good all year, mainly because of his consistent rebounding and defense. Against quality opponents, he’s far and away the best when combining those two categories together – 13.5 rebounds and 5.0 blocks per 36 minutes… and on top of that he’s efficient offensively in his touches (1.06 PPP), even if a good portion aren’t based on him beating his man in 1-on-1 situations. Throw in the unselfishness and other intangibles, and yeah.

8-12 seems like a stretch to me, even if that’s where he’s currently being pegged in the consensus (was slotted 8th last week). Unless teams get potential happy, I think his size and interior play get him picked earlier than that. Timberwolves picking him first, however, would be a letdown since he doesn’t have the upside which they desperately need.

by Casperkid23 on Feb 24, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I think he’ll probably go earlier than that as well. That’s why I said I’d LOVE it if he fell and we had a deal in place to move up :)

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't be surprised

If Kahn is trying to figure out a way to do this. We need a Center and he offers the highest floor of the ones available, if not the highest ceiling. That makes him the perfect 2nd lotto pick since we want to swing for the fences with the first one.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, it IS a weak PG draft. Maybe we could package Flynn + Cha and Utah’s picks to a team that really needs a PG and move up. Maybe Indiana? Or Detroit? Depends how the lotto shakes out, but I hope they’re exploring something like that.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

by Xand1 on Feb 24, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

On a side note, I love the Darko mania

Mainly because it means they’re moving away from a style (Al-centric) that I loathed watching unless he was absolutely on fire.

by Casperkid23 on Feb 24, 2010 12:01 PM CST reply actions  

Enjoy the season!!!

Let the joy spread, Darko Mania has arrived!!!!

by DR_JPK on Feb 24, 2010 12:46 PM CST reply actions  

Darko needs to be reconstructed

He doesn’t know who he is right now, there are too many voices in his head. Rambis needs to break down his bad habits and teach him what kind of player he can be: an excellent rebounder and defender; a good high/mid post passer + garbage man offensively. And teach him to enjoy that role.

I suspect it’s too late, but hopefully I’m wrong.

by Joana on Feb 24, 2010 12:55 PM CST reply actions  

Secret weapon in this process

Bill Laimbeer – another ‘angry’ and physical center. Mentor perhaps?

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Why is it either Team Jonny or Team Darko?

The best teams combine ball hogs with unselfish players (Kobe and Ron, meet Pau and Lamar). I don’t know if both sides will figure out how to play with each other, but isn’t that what should be expected? Teams with no offensive alpha dogs or teams with all offensive alpha dogs end up drafting in the teens. As much fun as it is to see a “pure” system, the truth is that “pure” teams never win the title. The common thread in all of the Wolves’ wins in the final minute is that either Jefferson or Flynn was taking the ball and going to the hole.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 24, 2010 1:31 PM CST reply actions  

I'm gonna hold my vote on Jonny

until we see what the offseason does to him. That’s the time where most rookies should be able to figure it out. He’ll get a lot of time to rest and think about what he has to do to get better. And hopefully he’ll use that time to rest to do anything but rest. If Jonny comes back next year in Vegas and the first few games of the season and he looks the exact same, I will write him off completely. If he comes back and shows any sort of improvement, I’ll hold out hope. If he doesn’t though, that’s when I look to trade him ASAP and pick up a guy like Telfair again (who may or may not want to come back at this point, his entire team is almost gone or could be by that time) to back up Sessions.

Also I’m gonna say it again, how nice would it be to have Josh Childress right now?

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 1:55 PM CST reply actions  

He'd make a very nice addition

Nothing like solid depth, not to mention it’d help complete our all Euro team – Ricky, Childress, Darko, Pek, Norel, and maybe Rudy?

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Feb 24, 2010 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Um, I don't think Josh Childress is European

He’s played in Europe, but that’s not really the same thing as being European. I mean, does anybody consider Brandon Jennings a Euro baller?

But yes, I would love for Childress to be on the Wolves.

by aarendsvark on Feb 24, 2010 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure what kind of offseason program

fixes ball domination, indecisiveness, and not being able to see open big men on drives to the hoop. I can see him coming back with an improved jumper and better defensive awareness since those are two things most rookie guards improve upon from their 1st to 2nd year. But the other stuff seems to be more innate – stuff imbued into a player while they are growing up with the game. It gets back to SnP’s claim that he is what he is and in watching him it’s tough seeing someone that can truly orchestrate an offense and make it flow.

by Rascal Flatts on Feb 24, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

The coaches better have a program

to work on that. Specifically tailored to Flynn. Have him mimic the boring skills challenge and throw balls through tires or something. There are plenty of things for that.

I enjoy watching videos that some personal trainers post and there are some very interesting drills out there meant to work on just about anything you can imagine. I actually really like the one where they have PGs dribble 2 balls and start throwing tennis balls at them, they have to catch the tennis ball and throw it away without losing stride. Not that that has to do with passing, but it’s fun.

A program that should work towards that is if someone told Jonny he has to pass more often going in to next season. Maybe he will even read about himself having a crappy ast/to ratio and a bad PG stigma and be motivated to fix it himself. A lot of the greats out there stick by the sentiment that stars are made in the offseason. I agree. Let’s hope Jonny is motivated enough and smart enough to do it himself.

by Mplax on Feb 24, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

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