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A conversation between Kahn and Rambis

 

All season, and especially since the Wolves winning streak, the collective of Canis Hoopus has been scratching their heads about player rotations. Why does coach Rambis trot out these mismatched, often incredibly weak 5 man units at seemingly critical moments during games?  

Certainly, one answer could be that he simply isn't a good coach. However, it's hard to accept that, especially after his tutelage under arguably the greatest coach of all time...

Another plausible explanation is what is often termed "player development."  Those of you who follow the Celtics will remember this vividly from the early years of Doc Rivers tenure. Doc Rivers is a good coach, so why was he trotting out line-ups and using all 12 guys on the bench during those lean years?  Didn't the Celtics at one point lose 17 in a row? But Doc Rivers is certainly not Randy Wittman, so how did that happen?  Were the Celtics that bad? Or was it Doc's player rotations? Hmmmm....

So, here is a snippet between Kahn and Rambis...

 

<Right after the Wolves 4 game winning streak>

Kahn:   "Kurt, great job on this winning streak, wonderful coaching and our players are really meshing well."

Rambis:  "Thank you David. "

Kahn:  "I never thought we'd make it to 14 wins so quickly."

Rambis:  "Well, the players are really starting to respond and I'm shortening my rotations."

Kahn:  "Hmmmmm,  I'm concerned we are not developing our younger players enough."

Rambis: "Well, we are really on a roll here, I think it is good for our team morale."

Kahn:  "Morale,  right...  we really need to give our younger guys more time."

Rambis: "Well, that is a good idea, I've been staying up late reviewing, <ahem> other games."

Kahn: "Good, I hoped you were, you remember our goals for the season."

Rambis: "Yes, it is time to initiate operation player development"

Kahn: "Excellent Kurt, I knew I could count on you."

Kahn: "Just remember Doc Rivers had to go through this before he got his championship."

Rambis: "I tell myself that everyday."

Comment 11 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Comments

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KLJ

I guess it’s just you and me on this. Everybody else is convinced that the Wolves and Rambis are just as terrible as their record indicates…though SNP alluded to Rambis’ player rotations in his last game write-up as an “Elephant in the Room”…

I’m curious what others are thinking on this.

by DR_JPK on Mar 1, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Is this the FanPost you were referring to?

I’m with you on the the rotations. Rambis just doesn’t play the players that are producing wins.

And even if it’s not a stats-based argument, what about those that actually run the Triangle? Flynn, Hollins and Jefferson are probably the least likely to run it, but they’re getting tons of burn.

www.canishoopus.com

by wyn on Mar 2, 2010 9:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Wait, maybe I misunderstood your point on rotations...

… but my point is that Rambis’s rotations aren’t rewarding the players that play within his system.

I also think winning lessons trump losing lessons on net in the player development realm.

www.canishoopus.com

by wyn on Mar 2, 2010 9:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Good discussion points

Wyn, yes this is the crux of the argument. I guess my goal is to put the question out there is this intentional by Rambis & Kahn? As fans it’s maddening to see us give away wins, and yet, if we get Wall or Turner in the draft, I think most fans would say it was worth it. All 10 of us :)

Thanks for bumping… Made my day!

by DR_JPK on Mar 2, 2010 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Um, I'm nodding my head while drinking coffee (wink wink)

(so it doesn’t look like I’m nodding head in agreement, but really I am…or am I?)

Couple of things – someone mentioned elsewhere that Kobe when to the playoffs with the Lakers starting Smush Parker and Kwame. Made me wonder if Rambis learned his at times bizarre rotation ideas from Phil.

The other aspect can be taken many different ways, but here are two: the first is simply what you are suggesting. In the name of player development, and perhaps to ‘showcase’ bit players so that there’s ample highlight film of Hollins thundering dunks down when Kahn needs to convince another team that they’re great filler for a trade, Rambis is giving burn to guys despite knowing that it probably reduces our chances of winning. This year is a throwaway year in terms of wins. And honestly, both Rambis and Kahn must realize how devoid of star talent this team is. With a legitimate shot at an All-Star caliber guard at the top of the draft, there is very little downside to this team continuing to develop players. In a schadenfreude kind of way continuing to play this way may actually be beneficial in the long run, as it enables the coaches to accumulate a mountain of evidence for creating and supporting specific training programs for the players over the summer. What I mean is, how can Jonny Flynn complain or not take seriously that he needs to dramatically improve x, y, and z or he’s not the starting PG anymore when Rambis can hand him hundreds of minutes of tape showing him repeatedly making the same mistakes.

I’ve always wondered if the reason why some players seem to take 3-4-5 years to ‘arrive’ is because they don’t play enough minutes to conclusively show a bad habit or tendency or something they’re fundamentally not grasping about the scheme, and so the team kind of harps on them but ultimately lets them get away with it. After 2-3 years, though (and maybe with a switch to a different team), there’s enough evidence on film of what’s going wrong that coaches can finally get through to a player and ‘suddenly’ they become much more effective. It’ll certainly be difficult for guys like Jonny, Hollins, and even Al (on D) to argue with the mountain of film documenting where their mistakes are coming from (and as a positive bonus, said mountain of film should also suggest some clear things to work on – like with Jonny and not Jonny Stopping any more. It’s not enough to know that he should stop Jonny Stopping, he needs to know the specific situations/reads/decisions that are leading up to the Jonny Stop to begin with and what he needs to do differently to mitigate that).

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Mar 3, 2010 9:11 AM CST up reply actions  

The tape don't lie

Biggity, the Wolves are certainly compiling hours upon hours of bad decisions by Jonny, cluelessness by Hollins, and poor D by Al. To spin that back to the Boston analogy. Boston was able to trade their young core, even after all that losing, for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Seems incredible to me. And yet it got Boston a championship. The wolves may want to try to turn some of their young players and draft picks into solid rotation players, especially if they land either Turner or Wall…

by DR_JPK on Mar 3, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I've had my suspicions also

that it’s not about winning now, but about playing guys that don’t play much in
order to evaluate them, to see if they can be improved or to see if they need to
be shopped or cut them. After all, why waste time trying to win a
championship and burning out the guys that have already made this team?
Save them from injury so that they make it to next year healthy.
The marginal guys need to play in real game situations so that the staff can see
what talent it can develop, or who needs to go, and in real-game situations.
They only have 20 games. The coaching staff needs this time to get a good
picture of where they need to go and what they need to do to prepare for 2010/11.
It’s time for the boys who don’t get minutes to step up or get a pink slip.

Don't kick a live dog.

by WillistonCoyote on Mar 3, 2010 5:18 PM CST reply actions  

This fits with the Boston analogy

Ultimately, after all the player evaluation, Boston kept Rondo and Perkins, and got value for their other young players/assets and turned a terrible team into an NBA championship caliber squad.

On the other hand, the Blazers have taken the other approach by holding onto all their young players and assets, so far it hasn’t gotten them close to a championship.

by DR_JPK on Mar 3, 2010 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Portland

has had bad luck with injuries. But the fact remains that they haven’t gotten past the first round. Another team to keep your eye on is Oklahoma City. Can their core of young guys reach championship level, or will they need to add a couple proven vets?

by DR_JPK on Mar 3, 2010 10:39 PM CST reply actions  

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