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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

An Attempt to Clarify the Argument


Or, Some Thoughts About the Structure of the NBA. 

Across several threads now the argument about how quickly the Wolves should try to win has been raging.  Should they spend money this summer, or wait?  Is it better to develop longer, not prioritize winning in 2010-11, and try to keep the pick they owe the Clippers for one more year?  SnP wrote eloquently about this question in his Memphis game wrap, and we have been discussing it for even longer, in one form or another. 

My position has been that they should prioritize winning starting next season.  That's not to say I want them to trade their young players for 32 year olds, but I do want them to spend their cap space, do their best to fill their holes, and get on with the process of winning.  However, many here disagree, and I respect their opinions (well...not PoorDick, but everyone else).  Below the fold, I want to try to get beyond this question and figure out why we're having this argument and how the way the league works is affecting it.

Star-divide

There is a delicate balance in sports that needs to be maintained in order for them to work.  In any given sport or league, if the best team doesn't win often enough, the results seem random, and people lose interest.  If, on the other hand, the best team wins too often, the sport is drained of drama and people lose interest.  It is this latter problem, I think, which infects the NBA.  Even though more than half the league makes the playoffs, realistically, the best teams always win the titles.  6th seeds don't.  In order to be one of the best teams in any given year, it is necessary to win at least 75% of your games.  

Compare this to say, baseball, a sport that has no salary cap and about which there are many imbalance complaints.  But realistically, there is much more hope for any given baseball team to win the world series than any given NBA team to win the NBA title.  The reason for this is that if you win 55% of your games in baseball, you have a decent chance of reaching the playoffs, at which point, the results are much more randomized.  So the Twins made the playoffs with 87 wins last year.  The Cardinals won the world series after going 83-79 a few years ago. You simply don't get these types of results in the NBA. 

And this, I think, is the crux of it.  The reason we are having this impassioned argument. (And the reason, by the way, that so many teams every year aren't trying to win, which I do not think is healthy for a league That's another fanpost, though).  Those who want to wait, hold assets, concentrate for another year on development, get that last protected pick from the Clippers recognize, correctly, that in order to become one of those best teams and have a shot at a championship, you have to get special players, and the way you do that is through having high draft picks.  They fear getting stuck in a land of perpetual mediocrity by ramping up too quickly and topping out well short of greatness.

My position, and others, is that getting to that level is unlikely no matter how long they wait to get good, and I want to see good basketball sooner rather than later.  We've watched terrible basketball for several years, and I'm tired of it.  These last 4 games have reminded us that the pleasure is in watching good basketball, and I want more of it.  Realistically, the number of players currently on the roster who will still be on the roster when the Timberwolves win a world championship is probably zero.  My point is, when you are at the level of the Wolves, you can't plan for a title.  you have to try to get good, and then hope something happens to get you over the top.  But as a fan, I want to root for a good team, and I want to do so as soon as possible.

The point of this post, however, is not to argue that one side of this argument is right or wrong.  I'm hoping to get opinions on the league structure, the nature of winning, and whether the league would be better if there was less deviation from top to bottom.  Whether, if so, there is anything the league can do to encourage more parity, and whether regular season parity can or should carry over into the post season.  These questions are vital, I think, for the league, and its future financial health.  The owners are pleading poverty, and I wonder if the fact that the best teams win too often isn't a big part of the problem. 

Now that I've started, I feel that I could go on and on about bad teams and revenue, the lack of competitiveness and more.  But this is long enough, and I'll leave it there, since I started this to be about the Wolves and our arguments. Thank you for reading.

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It is all about structure, not just league, but the game itself

The people on the patience side believe the Wolves need an impact player and depth. The issue as they see it is that in the NBA, a team that plateaus as a .500 team will be stuck at that level. How many NBA teams over the last couple decades have won 40-45 games for four straight seasons, then emerged as a title contender? Usually doesn’t work that way, usually a steady progression via young player development and drafting the right guy (often but not always a top 5 pick). Would the Bulls have won six titles if they were drafting too low to be in position to get Pippen??
It’s also a game structure issue. A primary reason teams in baseball or football become more or less competitive in a short period of time is that they are more team oriented games, due to the number of players on the field at any given time, any one capable of winning or losing a game by a great play or mistake. The NBA is much closer to an individual sport (like golf, tennis, or bowling) because they only have 5 players on the court at a time, and the two or three best tend to dominate their team, especially on offense (the Lions spent a decade trying to run isolation plays with Barry Sanders, but this is rare in the NFL). Because of this, when a basketball team is great, it tends to be due to a few players, and the teams stay that way a while (similar to golf, tennis, or bowling), assuming the players stay together and healthy.

Changing the CBA and enhancing revenue sharing will help, but ultimately if a team can draft LeBron James (or Melo or Duncan or Wade…etc) and keep him for fifteen years they will be competitive for that long, while the team that had the 7th pick in that draft may be left behind.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 6:34 PM CST reply actions  

In response to your 2nd paragraph

Yes. I agree. The question is: if it is prerequisite to a championship to have one of the top 5 players in the league, is that a feature or a bug? It seems to me that there’s an argument that it’s a bug. I don’t know that there’s anything structurally that can be done to limit the control the best players have over outcomes, or whether you would want to. (They could at least referee everyone equally).

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree it is a bug

Agree not much can be done to change the issue.

Agree that everyone should be refereed equally.

Another structural issue in the NBA (also the NHL) is that height and bulk are now at a premium. When the leagues essentially have a height minimum of 6 feet, 75% of the population is unqualified. This just makes it more difficult to level the playing field vs. the elite 20 or so players in the league. If height could be minimized, perhaps find a way to make speed and talent more important, then it would be easier to have more parity.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

There are things you COULD do to limit the influence of any one player

though I’m not sure you would want to do them. I am not advocating this, but, for example, you could limit the number of minutes any player could play in a game. You could penalize a team somehow when any one player takes too many of his team’s shots. Those are both terrible ideas, but there might be others.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 9:52 PM CST up reply actions  

It's probably crazy from the standpoint that it will never happen

but limiting a players minutes would actually be a fantastic idea. Teams that lacked a front end star could then focus on depth to stay competitive.

I ultimately think a few crazy ideas will rejuvenate professional sports. A crazy idea I have for the NHL (I think it could also work in the NBA) is to either play 4 on 4, or play 5 on 5, but make one player on each team stay on the opposite end of the court. They would basically have an offensive and defensive specialist on the floor at all times. Also, having fewer players would open up the court, or rink, which would make “quick, agile” players more valuable. This would mean shorter players have a chance, which would create an incredibly larger talent pool, hence a better game. Half the men in the US cannot play basketball or hockey because they are too short for that sport (even though they are average height). That’s a lot of “talent” sitting in the stands.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Amazingly, I just heard David Stern

in an interview with Bill Simmons suggest a minute cap. I don’t think he was totally unserious either.

Simmons was asking him about shortening the season by a few games and Stern responded that he didn’t think that would happen but that he would like to see teams use more of their rosters regularly and maybe there should be a minute cap.

On the CBA issue, sounded like his main issues are that he wants to make contracts at least partially non-guaranteed, and of course he wants the players to get less of the pie.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 10, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't like the idea of a minute cap...

… if for no other reason than that the NBA is basketball played at the highest levels in the world. This is why I watch it, even though I think that college basketball offers many or all of the desiderata mentioned in this thread: unpredictability, cinderella potential, less of an emphasis on star-driven success, strategies for coping with closer-too-average athleticism and height issues, greater parity in officiating, more likely to foul out, etc. (btw, i think this last rule would be a reasonable first step towards greater emphasis on depth in the NBA, provided that officiating wasn’t so absurdly star-friendly).

the point i’m driving at here, though, is that the second you start saying that a team can only play its best player so many minutes per game, you start telling the team (and its fans) that they will likely only enjoy the best basketball product they can expect for a certain portion of the game. if a game is to be played at its highest levels, the people who can play it best should not be legislated out of high levels of participation.

by TheH on Feb 10, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Ayn Rand would be against a minute cap.

Not that that’s necessarily an argument against it.

by princelyfrank on Feb 12, 2010 12:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Instead of limiting a players' minutes...

You could have a substitution system similar to soccer.

BetterLaettner

by BetterLaettnerThanRider on Feb 19, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I remember an article by Bill Simmons...

…where he advocated for less teams in the league. This would effectively weed out the Pavlovic’s of the league and would allow each team to have a better shot at being competitive by filling out a lineup with all-star level talent to compensate for the lack of a true “superstar”.

by jballer_13 on Feb 10, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

"Thank you for reading"

I lost interest right after “by Eric in Madison.”

by PoorDick on Feb 9, 2010 7:13 PM CST reply actions  

Bwahahahaha

I liked the article. But PD makes me laugh.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 10, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Nahh, I'm just joshin' you.

You’re probably right, but some of your arguments about the way things are in the NBA point to the philosophy of Gradual Improvement.

 I know some people who know some people, and some people they know work at relatively high levels of sports management and marketing. You know what those people say that they “sell”?

Hope. Hope that the rookies will get better, that the injured guy will come back full strength, that the veterans will make up for lost agility with their acquired knowledge, that the hated rivals will finally get sick of their prima donna quarterback and inspire him to come to our team and perfrom magnificently go through a rebuilding process.

In most sports, each season offers a relatively reasonable justification for renewed hope. In the NFL the wild card team sometimes makes it to the Super Bowl, in MLB a good rotation can give you an unwarranted edge in a short series, and in the NHL a hot goalie can take a sub-.500 team to the Stanley Cup finals.

But like you said, it’s not like that in the NBA. So rather than bemoan the way we wish things were, accept the way that they are, and understand that for better or worse, usually the best team wins. And the only way to vastly improve this wretched squad is through a lonnnng painful development process. Enjoy the ride, and celebrate it if/when it finally happens because it will be that much better.

by PoorDick on Feb 9, 2010 7:26 PM CST reply actions  

Well, not to rehash, but I look at the facts and come to a different conclusion

Instead of waiting around for lightening to strike, do what’s in your power to be the best team you can be and provide a quality product for your fans.

Anyway, I don’t know that I agree with “acceptance.” Obviously, nothing is going to change because of a conversation on this blog, but when has that ever stopped us? Look, it might be that the financial problems the league faces are not because of player salaries per se, but because there are too many terrible teams and/or teams not trying to win. You can’t expect fans to financially support such teams.

What I’m saying is, it’s worth considering whether and to what extent the structural issues are a negative, and whether there are solutions to those problems.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Well,

if when the Wolves are in the middle of their Sixties-Celtics-like string of titles, I think we’ll be singing a different tune about the lack of balance and surprise in the NBA.

So, you’re saying a 20 year old franchise should aspire to consistent mediocrity, instead of trying to win a Championship every 20 years, and then go back into rebuilding mode? I think you’re going to be in the minority with that opinion.

by PoorDick on Feb 9, 2010 7:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Would he?

Wouldn’t it be better to have a team that’s consistently in the playoffs but never wins a championship than a team that wins the title once every twenty years, but is awful for eighteen out of the twenty? Or, “rebuilding.”

Which would you choose? I’d take watching my team in the playoffs every year.

by princelyfrank on Feb 12, 2010 12:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

My personal choice is a championship, and then suckitude.

 Do you think lifelong fans of the Utah Jazz dance in the streets over getting the 6th seed and then knocked out every single year of Jerry Sloan’s career (well, they’re Mormons, so maybe that’s not a good example)? Or do you think they would gladly change places with, say, the Houston Rockets in ’94?

Look right here in the Twin Cities. Although the Vikings fans are usually in the playoffs and have appeared in one-fifth of the NFC Championship games, the fans are haunted by the team’s failure to win a Super Bowl. Compare and contrast with the Twins, whose fans have suffered through some painful years, but who are also warmed by two World Series rings?

The Wolves had their string of “pretty good” during the KG years. It was fun, but I’d gladly trade them for one year of “great.”

by PoorDick on Feb 12, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions  

You don't choose to ride

rollercoasters to get a stable but never quite fullfiling level of satisfaction. You ride the bumpy as hell huge peaks and valleys coaster that makes your head spin…because while it will likely make you puke once or twice when the ride isn’t what you expected or hoped (or ate too much before going on) every once in a while you come stumbling off yelling “THAT WAS FREAKING AWESOME.”

It’s all about that “THAT WAS FREAKING AWESOME” moment. It is the only thing that matters in sports. Notice how most people don’t talk about the wolves getting bounced every year for like 7 straight years in round 1. What they do talk about is the WCF appearance.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 12, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

EXACTLY!!

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Feb 17, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

acceptance and patience

are two very different things that are quite commonly mistaken for each other. Patience implies actually having a plan to correct for the aspect that requires patience. To not have the plan and not try to correct the supposed wrong implies acceptance worthy of a Kevin Bacon “may I have another” line.

I see you repeatedly request/implore the wolves to sign free agents to win now. You also claim to be a fan of labor and side with players and against management. All of that is fine and completely acceptable except for the fact that the league is in fact hurting right now.

Years ago the league made the choice to go away from focusing on individual fans and started making pitches to corporations for sponsorship, luxury boxes and corporate season tickets. They (management and players) hitched their wagon to the corporate gravy train and enjoyed the ride. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that for at least the short term the gravy train will no longer be in service. To expect the owners to continue to shell out for your entertainment seems a little unreasonable.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 9, 2010 8:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Wha?

I’m not sure I get your point. I’m not asking Taylor to go into luxury tax territory, I’m asking that they use their cap space. Kahn sounds like a man planning to use his cap space too. This seems to be beside the point.

And I’m not sure in your conception who is being patient about what and who is merely accepting.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 8:35 PM CST up reply actions  

There are many ways to use the cap space

you can sign a FA or act like a bank and help facilitate other deals to get pieces you want. Draft picks, cheaper players with potential from luxury tax crippled teams, etc. The “use it or lose it” approach to cap management is a very poor way to run a team. I highly doubt there is a cap level team that Taylor could field next year that wouldn’t cause him to bleed money. I don’t think it is reasonable to ask anyone to do that. I never mentioned the luxury tax, because I didn’t think I had to. Luxury tax is for championship teams. Full cap is for guaranteed playoff teams. Even if the wolves sign Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay, I don’t think they make the playoffs next year.

Did you learn to always spend every cent you earned when you were growing up? Or did you learn to make a plan on what you wanted out of life and to spend wisely so you actually had a decent chance to get what you want? And the stated want in this case (as professed by Rambis and Kahn) is to win a championship someday (or at least give ourselves that chance)…not to just be competitive (which I believe is your want). I would really like a team that doesn’t make such poor decisions that I just shake my head in disbelief at the poor management skills that constantly robs a team of any chance at continued excellence.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 9, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

This will be my final comment on this particular topic in this thread, because it

really was not my intention, but:

1. As for Taylor, that’s b.s. in my opinion. He got his franchise into this mess, he should damn well be ready to invest to get it out of the mess if he cares at all. That’s how business works. FIrst, you invest in your product, THEN you reap the benefits of selling it. Besides, I have not heard one inkling about an unwillingness to field a team that is at the cap; they are doing so this year.

2. As for Kahn wanting to build a championship team? Yeah, me too. But it’s my contention that there’s only so much a front office or coaching staff can do toward that, which is to build a quality, competitive unit. Without getting lucky and getting one of the best players in the league, championships aren’t happening.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 9:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Taylor got the team in trouble

precisely because he sacrificed the future for the present. I don’t want him doing that again, at least right now…maybe in a few years if they are a Joe Smith away from a title.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I like the 2nd paragraph take

I haven’t compared real life (buying homes/cars etc) to sports very often, but it is a valid point. People who will give up anything to win today are probably similar to those who max out their home loans, car loans, and credit cards. Not saying everybody fits these categories, but there is probably a correlation.

I have been firmly in the build slow and careful approach for the Wolves, I also didn’t buy my first “New” car until I was about 35 years old. Basically have never had a car payment in my life, just bought nicer as I got older.

As in real life, I bet the GM with the long term perspective almost always gets the best of a deal when trading with someone who is trying to win today.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Great point

A lack of patience is why the Wolves are in such bad straits today. Lack of patience got them to overpay for T-Hud and Jaric (plus overpay in the trade). It also led to the awful Ricky Davis, Blount, et al deal for Wally and a 1st rounder.

I would argue that lack of patience also led them to grab McCants instead of Granger, as well as trading Roy for Foye (basically trying to win while KG was still here). Something people never remember here is how badly McHale wanted to bring Allen Iverson to the Wolves to pair with KG. I really believe part of the reason the Wolves chose to do the Foye/Roy deal is that McHale figured the Foye/Villanova connection would make it easier to pry Iverson from the Sixers.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:14 PM CST up reply actions  

funny

i remember reading at the time that the Wolves refused to give the sixers Foye in an AI deal and that is what made the trade not go down.

by littleboxes on Feb 9, 2010 11:51 PM CST up reply actions  

McHale went to bed the night before AI was traded to Denver thinking he had AI

What brought the deal down was Philly’s owner decided he didn’t want THud’s lousy contract. This is common knowledge if you do some checking.

by Rumblebee on Feb 10, 2010 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

not wanting THud's contract?

that’s a suprise. Perhaps THud’s music career would have been embraced in Philly.

by littleboxes on Feb 10, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

There is a behind the scenes aspect

to the difference between patience and acceptance…McHale as enabled by Taylor. McHale should have never been GM. He should have been a special consultant that got to work with bigs and gives Taylor and the GM his take on a players talent and skillset. GM is a position that requires doing the legwork…which McHale never wanted to do. That more than anything is what led to the poor selections and trades.

The fact that McHale can go on TV and give decent commentary should tell everyone exactly why Taylor hired him…he just put the Kahn like effort into it to make sure his deal or pick was the best long term possible decision. For that I blame Taylor. It is the owners job to put their employees in positions to better improve their organization.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 10, 2010 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

sorry

didn’t put the Kahn like effort in.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 10, 2010 8:09 AM CST up reply actions  

At least we got something for Foye

in the end. The AI trade would not have been the answer, but just another short-term fix in a series of zero-sum trades by McHale.

"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel

by uncle rico on Feb 10, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I really like your selling hope angle

I have been a sports nut since the late days of the Purple People Eaters. It really wasn’t until the last few years that I realized that half the teams I root for are literally selling nothing but hope. Kinda changed my perspective in a big way. That and fantasy football have made me focus more nationally now, rather than just the local teams. I never thought I would say this, but I no longer really care if the Vikings leave, I’ll just follow the most interesting teams each season. It will actually be more enjoyable. Selling hope is also why the NFL is sooooo successful, any team, no matter how pathetic, can sell hope that they are only a few years away. The Saints and Jets (even the Vikings) this season and the Cardinals last season prove the validity of hope in the NFL.

I’ve had Gopher football tickets since the early 90’s, also had them as a student when Holtz was here, talk about a team that sells nothing but hope! This year was all about the promise (hope) of a new stadium, next year it will be a new coach. Again, before it occurred to me a few years ago that they are selling hope, I gladly kept buying tickets. The last year they really competed in the Big Ten was the year I was born, I now wonder if I will ever see more than hope, and am really considering giving up the season tickets.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions  

It's why the NFL draft

is so popular with hardcore fans, despite the fact that most of them don’t know squat about the picks other than that one catch that guy had in the Rose, no wait the Cotton Bowl—was that on New Year’s this year? Anyway Mel Kiper Junior says he’s AWESOME!!!

by PoorDick on Feb 9, 2010 10:44 PM CST up reply actions  

With the Gophers

there is absolutely no hope. Accept it now.

by littleboxes on Feb 9, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I kind of wanted to avoid this argument, but I guess I invited it, so

What are the chances this team wins a title in the next 20 years? 10%? Can’t be much higher, frankly. They didn’t come particularly close in their first 20, and they HAD one of the best players in the league for a bunch of those seasons.

And no, as you must know, I don’t aspire to mediocrity. I aspire to watch my favorite team play good basketball. I hope they can go forward and start building toward that without another season where winning is not the priority. I’m so far from worrying about a championship with this team, that it just doesn’t really enter into the equation for me.

by Eric in Madison on Feb 9, 2010 8:08 PM CST reply actions  

I think for most of us

it’s not about winning a championship, it’s about being a legitimate contender for one.

I would rather watch a team play like this for 3 years and then watch them get deep into the playoffs (and even put up a fight before they are eliminated) for 2 years than just watch them play .500 ball for 10 years.

by Mplax on Feb 9, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, the odds are closer to 75% they win a title in the next 20 years

In the next five, almost none, but after that the law of averages and a little luck have a role.

One other thing people don’t really hear when Kahn speaks…He goes out of his way to say he wants to build a running team. He says this as often as he speaks of competing for a title. I really think Kahn’s goal is to build a fun team that sells tickets, and hopefully contends for a title once or twice. I really believe the Suns of the Nash era are his template.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this last point is a good one.

The ‘running team’ mantra is as much about entertainment value as wins. And I’m definitely OK with that.

by TheH on Feb 10, 2010 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

If I have to pick between a title or an exciting team

obviously I take the title. But if the choice is an exciting top 10 team vs. a boring runner up, I’ll take the exciting team.

by Rumblebee on Feb 10, 2010 6:56 PM CST up reply actions  

My opinion

is that the Wolves have done a terrible job of rebuilding. Ok that’s not really an opinion. But the Wolves have been in rebuild mode for far too long now (I’m counting right after Cassell and Spree left) and that’s where I think EiM’s frustration comes in. A well run team should be able to take the route that the Thunder have. They were a decent team when they left Seattle and decided to start over. They obviously got a little lucky with Durant, but they really did turn it around in a couple years and use that “hope” to effectively sell tickets during the downtime. But they actually delivered on that hope. My issue is that the Wolves have not delivered on the “hope” for so long that the quotation marks have to stay there for us.

So while we really are only in the first year of rebuilding (this time), we are actually in our third cycle of rebuilding, but without getting better any of those times. After Cassel/Spree left we started rebuilding and failed. Traded KG, rebuilt again, failed. Now we traded the farm, rebuilding, in process. If we make consistent strides next year, that’s how we know that we have hope and not just the “hope” that we have had for the past few seasons. Even if we start winning, ignore the Clipper pick because Rubio should do a good job of replacing that for us, we are still most likely in the lottery for 2 more seasons and in the low 20s after that. Even in the late 20s, there are plenty of opportunities for guys as long as we do our due diligence in the draft process, stash some Euros when there are no other opportunities, and utilize our assets so, again, they are not just “assets.”

We really are well positioned to make a splash within the next couple years. We will have potentially 3 first rounders this year along with Pekovic. Most likely Rubio and/or another lottery pick the year after that. After this, we really don’t need another draft pick if we did a good job with this year and next year and keep our guys developing. At this point, opportunities start opening up for FAs to come to us anyways and that’s as good as a lower first round draft pick anyways, most likely better.

So basically I think we are on the right track, it’s just that it took a few tries where it shouldn’t have. The NBA is obviously set up to favor big markets and warm weather, but that’s not to say we should just give up and accept an average team. There are still plenty of opportunities to get to the finals, the FO just has to make sure to do a good job with taking advantage of all of the opportunities. It’d help to get a break in the draft, but it’s not 100% necessary.

by Mplax on Feb 9, 2010 9:32 PM CST reply actions  

Disagree that this is the 3rd rebuild

Immediately after the Cassell/Sprewell years, they Wolves mortgaged what little future they had to try to win while KG was still here.
I think the rebuilding started when they traded KG. Also, I wouldn’t call this another rebuild, more of a change in direction/leadership. They have basically been rebuilding around Jefferson since they traded KG. It seems like forever, but I think AL has only been here three years now.

Also, the Thunder got more than a “little lucky”. Go back and look at that draft again. If the Wolves had gotten the Seattle luck in that draft (they had the same record), people would be praising McHale for building a team around KG and Durant, while OKC would be an after thought.

by Rumblebee on Feb 9, 2010 10:36 PM CST reply actions  

The Wolves are headed in the right direction

We are due for lotto luck. John Wall or Turner combined with what we got and what we could feasibly add via trade or FA signing makes us a major threat in the NBA for years to come. If we don’t get lucky, then you go to plan B and trade for Iggy and/or Kevin Martin. Not that complicated.

by John Wall on Feb 10, 2010 12:00 AM CST reply actions  

I won't comment on the structure of the league....

but as someone who follows professional sport in a number of codes and has seen a team dear to me build from nothing to a title through drafting, I cannot begin to emphasise how important a winning culture is.

It begets everything. Confidence, corporate support, positive media, the ability to lure free agents is all prefaced upon demonstrating you have a pulse.

Won't someone think of the ping pong balls?

Kurt Rambis - stop this insanity!

by Auswolf on Feb 10, 2010 3:03 AM CST reply actions  

Culture is definitely important

Having leadership with a plan is vital, whether it is the Rooney’s in Pittsburgh or even a team like the Twin’s that have since the mid-80s had a culture of playing fundamental baseball.

by Rumblebee on Feb 10, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, but there's more.

See the post Jordan Bulls. A winning culture turned into an ongoing turnover of young talent that still isn’t consistent playoff material.

by Blond Ricky on Feb 11, 2010 9:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Part of the equation with sports is selling your product to fans. They have an uphill battle in this market where the Wolves compete with 2 winter sports (hockey and football) that Minnesotans by and large prefer as well as Gopher hockey and hoops. The people who come to this site and other Wolves blogs are probably going to stick around anyway, but how do you pay respect to the die-hards and sell to the masses? It’s your plan/pitch.

My problem this year is with the plan/pitch. I read it to be “We plan to be terrible this year, probably next year too, and likely the year after that. But we may be good at some point. The guys who will lead us to greatness are definitely not on the roster yet. But they might be next year or the year after that.” And the man doing the selling has yet to make a basketball move – his claim to fame is effort (which we take on faith), and precisely that he hasn’t done anything substantial yet (but could at some point).

I’m patient (evidenced by sticking around with this team since Day 1), but the team has to demonstrate effort as well. Otherwise as a fan you just become a glutton for punishment.

by Punisher#8 on Feb 10, 2010 12:05 PM CST reply actions  

A few thoughts

When comparing to the Thunder, they have been very patient and unwilling to spend cap space on quick fixes. They have used their cap space to make smart additions when the price was low (Thabo, Krstic, Maynor).

However, their #1 attribute (IMO) has been good drafting. They clearly got lucky in getting the #2 pick and having future HOFer fall to #2 (thx Portland). However they also turned an aging Ray Allen into Green, drafted Westbrook early than expected, and found a solid SG in Harden.

The reason the Wolves are on their 2nd or 3rd rebuild is (IMO) horrible drafting. The team had no #1 pick whatsoever in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2004. In 2005 they get pass on Granger and others for McCants. Out of the league. In 2006 they trade Roy for Foye. Foye was (until the Arenas suspension) a bench guy on a horrible team. In 2007 they drafted Brewer who until recently looked like he would not reach a second NBA contract. In 2009 our #1 pick stayed in Spain (which was not horrible drafting but is a major talent drain at the moment).

Add to that all the sold/muffed 2nd round picks, and it is no shock whatsoever that the Wolves have been one of the least talented teams for years.

That is why I am fully in favor of Kahn’s general direction, which seems to be talent acquisition.

Re: the broader questions and comments about the NBA as a whole. Building a championship quality team seems like an almost impossible task. Here are several of the basic challenges:

  • You need two or three of the top players in the league. These are normally available only through the draft. To draft them you need to be both terrible and lucky (lottery).
  • Players have a relatively short window of championship level play. You need many of your players to have their window all at roughly the same time. You must constantly try to replace players leaving their window.
  • You need a large group of good players but must fit them all within roughly the luxury tax line. Very tough to do unless some top players are still on rookie deals.
  • You need a deep team to survive injury, but you must manage the resulting unhappiness due to lack of minutes/shots.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 10, 2010 12:39 PM CST reply actions  

I Think the Wolves Can Be Younger Version of Boston

Look at how Boston was constructed.

Traded Jefferson, Gomes, Green, Telfair, and 2 firsts for KG
Traded Delonte West, Wally Sczezerbiak, and the #5 pick for Ray Allen and Glen Davis

They already had Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, and Kendrick Perkins

Now look at the Wolves. They have Kevin Love/Al Jefferson, Nikola Pekovic, a ton of expirings, Wayne Ellington, a Top 5 pick (or so), Gomes, CHA 1st, and UTA 1st.

Now instead of trading for aging stars, the Wolves can make moves for younger talent. Andre Iguodala and Samuel Dalembert are the first to come to mind. Iguodala is a young stud that can do everything except for shoot and I believe a summer with David Thorpe and Rambis & Co and that could be turned around. Flynn/Brewer/Iguodala/Jefferson/Dalembert with Sessions, Love, Gomes, and Hollins off the bench could win 40 games, but then you add in a Top 5 pick. Maybe Evan Turner, maybe Wes Johnson. Lets just say the ideal scenario hits and the Wolves get Evan Turner. Now we are looking at a lineup of Flynn/Turner/Iguodala/Jefferson/Dalembert with Brewer, Love, Sessions, Gomes, and Hollins off the bench. Then in 2011 or if Kahn can work out a deal to get Rubio over here sooner then the lineup looks like Rubio/Turner/Iguodala/Jefferson/Dalembert with Flynn, Love, Brewer, and Hollins off the bench.

Lets say the Wolves need a shooter, they could put a package together for Anthony Morrow or another solid shooter. I just don’t see the point of waiting and seeing what happens in FA. What happens if no one comes? It is very hard to push cap space from year to year because player’s salaries increase, players move from rookie contracts to their first extensions, and then add in draft pick salaries and it is very hard. Plus, if Kahn moves along with this plan and waits for free agency then he is backed in to a corner with Pekovic and the Wolves would no longer be able to keep him. His contract would eat into the salary cap space and then Kahn would not be able to hand out a max contract. Then Kahn would be forced to take pennies on the dollar because Pekovic wants to play here and the Wolves would have no cap space to sign him with. If Kahn doesn’t make a significant move at the deadline, I will be very disappointed. I am not sure I can handle another season of losing like this.

by Jaughn on Feb 10, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Hard cap

It seems to me that the Lakers haven’t succeeded because of the draft, but because they can attract free agents and players via trade. Some of that (location, mystique) can’t be changed, but implementing a hard cap would make it much more difficult for them.

I also think it’d be fun to have a 1-and-done in-season tournament. The EPL has all sorts of competitive balance issues, but more fans can stay interested because there are so many different things to play for (FA Cup, Carling Cup, Europa League qualifying, not being relegated). An in-season tournament is the only one of these that I see as being feasible for the NBA. A middle-of-the-pack team could potentially go on a roll and win it.

But overall, a handful of teams really have a chance to win the title in any given year, and not much is going to happen to change that. I just don’t see the league shortening playoff series to 5 (or 3) games, for example.

by Madison Dan on Feb 10, 2010 1:40 PM CST reply actions  

$0.02

What’s most important is to 1) have a system, 2) consistently add the best possible 1-10 talent for that system, and 3) not overpay anyone, even if it means a momentary drop in talent. However, when a team is within sniffing distance (i.e., played in last year’s conference finals at the very least) of the title, then it’s time to make sure all of the important pieces are locked up long-term or can be moved for equal value if necessary.

The problems of the first-round-and-out Wolves were that they were hamstrung on #2 by KG’s salary (which can’t happen according to the current CBA rules, at least to that extent) and that the system was based on being unconventional enough to surprise teams during the regular season but conventional enough to stop in a playoff series. Bottom-line, though KG was a much more dominant defender than offensive player, they didn’t try to develop a dominant defensive team and fill it with really good defenders who could compensate for lack of execution with athleticism (like, say, drafting Bobby Jackson instead of Paul Grant or Shawn Marion instead of Wally).

What the hell does all of this mean? The main way that winning becomes a rut is if a team is too reliant on a flawed plan or if they botch #2 or #3. I have no problem with the Wolves winning games this season as long as they’re not benching Wayne Ellington for Sasha Pavlovic or going with strategies that work against what they ultimately want to become, which is apparently the 20-below version of the Showtime Lakers. But with that in mind, they have do better than they have with #2 (as evidenced by the fact that no one on this team drafted before ‘07 is still here) and can’t forget about #3. The best they can do is develop and execute a good plan; whether they win the title is partially determined by luck, but any team can be a consistent 50-win team if they have those 3 elements. Just ask the Jazz. This is why I enjoyed this season’s winning streak much more than January of last year; these wins seem like the result of at least #1 and #3 and the start of #2.

by pagingstanleyroberts on Feb 10, 2010 4:01 PM CST reply actions  

Good post

I enjoyed the 2009 January run a little, but you just knew it was based on such temporary things. McHale’s off-the-cuff coaching when he would not commit to a longer contract at the time. Randy Foye playing over his head for about 1 month. A bunch of good teams with key injuries at the time.

This year we have our long term coach/style and some (hopefully) long term, core team members. So wins are fun for now and hopefully stepping stones to more wins in the future.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 10, 2010 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Great Article - I agree with your conclusion

I think we should try to win when we can. I disagree with the philosophy that we can’t sign or play veterans because it hurts our draft position, which in turn hurts our ability to land that Alpha Dog to take us to the homeland. You wait a decade for LeBron and then you get the second pick. Look at the Spurs with Duncan. They landed the #1 pick not through tanking, but because D. Robinson got hurt.

That being said, I think the Wolves should be very frugal with their money, and be especially vigilent against overpaying, and not foreclosing future free agency years to fill the cap next year (see the Pistons 2009 summer). Maybe its difficult not to overpay because when signing your own players they want spiffs and you want to reward them. That being said, after signing a player and it becomes clear that the contract is overpriced, I’m not going to criticize the organization for dumping that contract as quickly as possible, even if it means taking less talent in return. That is why I have been a big proponent on the trade Big Al bandwagon. I just don’t see him worth $15 million a year, which is what I think his contract eventually reaches. I don’t see his style of play, lack of athleticism and his height working on a championship-calibre team, whether he’s the best, second, third, fourth, or fifth best player on that team.

by Mike B. on Feb 14, 2010 5:23 PM CST reply actions  

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