Timberwolves Draft Board
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Mar 1, 2010 9:39 PM CST
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Print(Ed Note: I bumped this to the front page for some draft talk before Wednesday's game. I'll post the updated Hoopus Score draft board next week. Just a quick preview: Take a look at Vandy's Jeff Taylor. I just ran the Hoopus Score numbers and he came out as the 2nd highest ranked prospect behind Evan Turner. Thanks to ADPBTD for putting this list together.)
This isn't a Draft Board on what other teams might do, but what our own team would have as it's Draft Board for our First Selection.
1. Evan Turner - We wouldn't take him #1 because of the possible back lash of fans in not taking the BPA in Wall, but we would rather have him for our team than Wall. You can see Brandon Roy in his game, but I think Kobe at this point in his career would be a better comparison, they're both unbelievable scorers that put their teams on their back when it matters most. A great player for the triangle.
2. John Wall - Great player, but not another PG!!!!!!!
3. DeMarcus Cousins - A true C, not sure if he improves us defensively though, but an actual front court player with legitimate size, can we tame him? Supposedly is taking medication for mental health issues, just doesn't seem to have the most stable of personalities, a lot of ups and downs. Huge though, size, strength, wingspan, has all the physical tools to dominate with his back to the basket. A decent athlete, but definitely not a run and jump kind of guy, will he be much of a shot blocker? Still makes us very slow on the interior, if he were to be selected and Al were to be traded, there has to be an effort made to acquire a 3/4 like Stan Robinson or Devin Ebanks to guard quicker face up 4s like Josh Smith and LaMarcus Aldridge. Makes Al Jeff expendable, also has been compared to a taller Big Al (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeMarcus-Cousins-1318/), big risk/big reward.
4. Wes Johnson - An athlete with length, something we're in dire need of, a little old (23 next season) to be a top-tier Draft prospect, but nonetheless, very NBA ready, very good basketball IQ, at this point, because of the Zone defense Syracuse uses, he may not be the greatest man to man defender, very good shooter and passer though. Not a SG, just doesn't have the quickness or handle. A prototypical SF, does he have the mentality or skill set to take over games? Probably more Josh Howard than Danny Granger, how much potential does he have left? Not sure he would work for us because we need stars, not more role players.
5.Cole Aldrich - Another position of need, a very good interior defender, but does he have the quickness to guard perimeter oriented front court players? Not much of an offensive game yet, has some range, but has that extremely slow release, can he get that shot off in the pros? Is quicker then most give credit for, I think a lot of this is due to hustle, but he still looks akward in his post moves, although his up and under has looked effective, just not the most fluid. Local boy, hard worker too, will give us 10/10/2 every night, if we could keep Milicic for less money than Aldrich with far less risk than a draft pick, would you rather have Milicic? If we'd be willing to take the athletically challenged Cousins, wouldn't we be willing to take Aldrich too? High Basketball IQ though, but is he worth a Top 5 pick? How would fans feel about his selection in the Top 5?
6. Derrick Favors - Not a position of need and another undersized, albeit very long, PF. A big time athlete, something we covet direly, but not the athletic SG or SF we so desperately need, quick for a PF, but not overly quick, very raw on the offensive end, not much range or a post game to speak of. Very good rebounder, supposedly a humble kid that's willing to put in the work. If we are to trade Al, do we still have a defensive redundancy up front with him and Love? He is very long and quick, but will we still have the same problems with 7 footers in that we just don't have the size, this is where I can see them taking the taller Cousins if they are determined to trade Big Al. Will also be a player that needs to be developed extensively on the offensive end, not a player you should expect to contribute heavily next year, is he Antonio McDyess pre-injury or Chris Wilcox, big risk/big reward.
7. Hassan Whiteside - A big position of need, a long, quick, athletic C with big time shot blocking capabilities, extremely raw though, but does have range and looks fluid in his post movements, already 20 years old though, very old for a Freshman. Plays inferior competition, not much of a Basketball IQ to speak of, has an extremely bad A:TO ratio (1 to 6) playing in the C-USA, scary!!!
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Comments
Agree with CourtsideATX
I think passing on Favors for Cousins would really come back to bite us big time. To me it’s the difference between Al Jefferson and Al Horford. Jefferson is a tremendous talent, but Horford helps your team win on both sides of the court. Cousins also has a few too many red flags as of yet. He still has time to prove they are gone, but a good month does not mean anything.
By all accounts, Favors is a tremendous teammate and has not complained once about deferring to Gani Lawal despite the talent disparity. Favors will clearly be a better professional, but GT was Lawal’s team and that wasn’t about to change for a one-and-doner.
Favors puts up a very nice stat line, shooting almost 60% and garnering 12rebounds per 40 minutes (pace adjusted). I haven’t seen him, but they have his weaknesses really focused on his raw offensive game. That’d be something that having Big Al around for a couple months could really help him with. Hopefully Laimbeer would be able to help a bit there.
As much as I want Turner, I don’t think Favors would be a bad consolation prize. And I won’t be remotely surprised if Favors turns out to be the best player in this draft. Although there are about 5 players I could honestly say that about. Wall, Turner, Favors, Cousins, or Motiejunas. That’s right, Motiejunas! He’s the least likely, and I think I would probably even put Wes Johnson above him for likelihood of being the best out of the draft, but I really don’t see Wes Johnson as ever being a good 2-way player.
Favors will be a beast
Imagine what those alley oop dunks would look like from Rubio. the T-wolves would make Sportscenter every night.
Favors is absolutely built for a running game and would fit almost perfectly on both offense and defense. The big question would be how would he and Love look down low during playoff basketball (assuming we eventually make the playoffs).
A comment on the thread
about Kahn and Rubio made me think of that too.
The lineup of:
Rubio/Flynn
Brewer/Ellington
(James Anderson/Stanley Robinson/Xavier Henry???)
Love/Pekovic
Favors/Pekovic
Would be a very interesting lineup. And that’s ignoring whatever we could get in FA, trades for Big Al, Gomes, Sessions, and a couple draft picks. To be honest I wouldn’t mind trading Jefferson for Favors if we ended up with the second pick and then got both Turner and Favors. I don’t think Favors will have too much trouble as a C (and if we traded Pek and got a true center, I think he would be the ideal 4/5 combo guy). I think he’s got a similar standing reach to Jefferson and I’d put a lot of money on him being able to jump higher. Plus he is probably quite a bit better at defense already.
As long as we don’t get a draft bust, our future really is starting to look pretty bright.
I don’t know what Favors will measure out at, but he does actually still complement Love given the insane athletcism and shot blocking/solid D. If he measures 6’10" in shoes we might not be too sad to miss out on Wall/Turner.
Rubio to Favors would be a nice combo.
If there’s anyway we bring Darko back we’d have a SOLID trio of bigs.
The last time a MN pro team had the #1 pick in the draft
was around 2000 for the MN Twins. They screwed up and took the guy many people thought was the 2nd best player (Twins thought he was a better fit). The Twins took a lot of criticism, especially when the player the Twins passed had a great year for the Cubs a couple years later.
Those poor Twins, got stuck with some guy named Mauer and will never live it down.
by Rumblebee on Mar 1, 2010 7:12 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Right on
If I were running the Wolves (my dream, of course), I’d have a strict edict that my draft advisors could not watch SportsCenter or any other program while college highlights or stories played. The journalists/personalities/whatever have a vested interest in giving some players more airtime than others. This is not a criticism, it only makes sense. And they usually pick the right players to follow.
However, when a person that they didn’t see coming comes along, the reporters are reluctant to give them too much play, at least for a while. This also makes sense; you have to keep building on the storylines that you’ve already been building. The problem is that they rarely give this person #1 billing over their already-decided number 1, even if this person has earned it.
Take Player X. He is a preseason pick as #1 in the draft. And he’s surely worth it. He is followed all season long, and always introduced or referred to as “Player X, who we all expect to go at the top of the draft next year…” Isn’t that usually how they introduce him?
Now look to Player Y, who we knew would be good, but didn’t know he’d be this good. He gets headlines and, after a while, might even be referred to or introduced as “a player that some think could vie for the #1 spot in the draft.” Given your experience watching ESPN or reading SI.com or checking Hoopus daily – isn’t it possible that, even after Player Y has shown himself to be the absolute best amateur in the country, the networks will stick to the guy that they picked in the beginning?
This isn’t a criticism of the columnists or reporters. It only makes sense: you’ve built a story and you have an interest in keeping it going. But it means that sometimes, especially with short-term storylines such as one-and-done college players, they might be wrong in the end? All because Player Y: came from a small city/state/program; was a third-year junior who we’d already seen before and was no longer new; or maybe just that Player Y was unlucky enough not to get that initial hype blast at the beginning of the year.
It doesn’t mean Player X is bad, just as Mark Prior wasn’t bad by any stretch. He dominated for a good time. But it does mean that a Player Y like Joe Mauer can be considered a suspect #1 pick at the time and then prove to be the obvious #1 years later in hindsight.
Given what I’ve seen and heard of Wall and Turner, I think this could be one of those situations. You’ve got a new, flashy, extremely-hyped player on one hand, and he will undoubtedly be very good. But you’ve got a player on the other hand who could be phenomenal, only he’s been around and doesn’t make for a sexy headliner on SportsCenter.
Kind of like people regarded Mauer. Kind of like people regarded Dwyane Wade.
If I ran the Wolves (I would imagine many of our’s dream), I’d take Turner at this point. But I’d do some serious studying first. And what I wouldn’t be studying — and wouldn’t let my draft people study — are the perceptions of ESPN columnists and hosts. They’re wrong as often as they are right, and we all know it. I’d be directing my people to study the game film and the game film only.
Totally different situation
Prior was the experienced college player, Mauer the high-schooler. That’s the opposite of Wall/Turner.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 1, 2010 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
But there's still value in the comparison
Especially in the sense of why Mauer is so valuable. A catcher who plays great defense and wins batting titles is so much more valuable than a third baseman who wins batting titles with average defense. A top flight starting pitcher may have value comparable to a top flight catcher like Mauer, but then again Mauer has far more opportunities and responsibilities to sway the outcome of the season. Prior could have easily gone number one, but Mauer – because of what he could do at a notoriously difficult position, especially offensively – represents the surefire choice if both players reach their ceilings (far fewer players like Mauer have ever existed than players like Prior).
Switching to basketball, then, we could ask ourselves which is the more difficult commodity to find? A dynamic, score from anywhere yet play creating and defense playing PG? Or a play making, elite defensive wing who can also set up guys and score at the end of games? To be honest I kind of think that kind of PG is the rarer of the two, but with Rubio in our back pocket I just don’t see how you can pass on a guy like Turner on a team like ours unless you have an ironclad trade agreement in place with the number two team to pick up another marginal asset. In other words, if the Twins already had a young Mike Piazza, (later injuries aside) why would they draft Mauer when they could have had Prior (and before they knew Santana would be an ace)?
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
And further
You’re right about the Prior/Mauer age difference. But I remember when that draft happened, and the general feeling was that starting pitcher was a much more sexy position to take. Nobody ever talked about building a team around a catcher.
And I think that’s what’s happening, at least a little bit, here. Point guards are the hotness in the league now, and have been for a few years. They get the media aroar. But a complete swingman is much more valuable in reality. Just like one great hitter, even if he is a catcher and hits for average more than power, will always be more valuable than one great pitcher, even though the pitcher with a crazy fastball will get more attention.
Yes - Flash & Dash always get the play
Wall is flashier, but I really think that Turner is #1. He’s more stable and brings to the team a difficult style/position to just draft. Even if we get lucky and get #1, we take Turner.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Mar 2, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
The flashy play certainly doesn't hurt (and why should it, that's just fun to watch!)
but I tend to think that the age might be the biggest difference here. Wall is a freshman putting up the numbers that he is and dominating huge games. He has his flaws, but you’d have to think another year of college and he would be destroying college ball more so than even Turner is right now.
This is where the youth argument comes in
To go back to the Mauer analogy, if he’d played three years at Florida State, he would’ve been the no-doubt consensus #1. The age difference matters. Evan Turner wouldn’t have been a lottery pick if he’d left after year 1.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 2, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
Yes...
But that’s also where the D. Wade comparison comes in. He played a couple years of college ball, but it wasn’t until late in his last season and especially in the tournament that he came on and earned recognition as a potential lottery pick, let alone future superstar. Sometimes players show what they have a little later, but because they’re 21 or 22 – oh no! – we discount them a little bit.
Who is Wade being compared to?
I get the Mauer/Prior and Wall/Turner part, but who is the other half of the Wade comp?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 2, 2010 11:17 PM CST up reply actions
No particular individual
You could say Darko, but it wasn’t Darko vs. Wade. You could say Bosh, but it also wasn’t Bosh vs. Wade. As I remember, Wade was simply an afterthought in the wake of LeBron/Melo/Darko. Bosh got noticed for his tremendous upside potential as a mere freshman. But Wade, whose tourney performance was simply unreal, including a couple of triple-doubles if I remember correctly, just wasn’t in the conversation for #1/2/3 nonetheless.
Turner and Wall are neck and neck right now for me. Wall has cooled a little and Turner continues to impress. Unless there was some kind of surprise between now and the draft, I’d probably take Turner. To go off Rumblebee’s example, I think he’s the Mauer and Wall is the Mark Prior.
Favors #3 over Cousins. He’s got that top end athletcism that puts his upside higher. Cousins seems to have too many mental makeup questions to risk a high pick…Michael Beasley??? Also, isn’t Pekovic pretty much what Cousins is right now? Less rebounding probably, but scores with brute strength around the hoop?
Aldrich looks like he’s going to be solid all around. I would absolutely want him for the Wolves, but I think his “value” is going to drop and taking him in the top 5 would be a “reach” by the eventual big boards. His stats are steady and he’s not the type to wow athletically…seems likely to get pushed down by the more buzzed guys…like a Whiteside.
Whiteside is tough because we know so little. His upside would have to put him in a top 5 conversation given his shot blocking -which is just superb.
If we get the third pick
and draft Favors and Whiteside drops to our Charlotte pick, that’d be a very nice draft! Whiteside will take some time to develop, but in the meantime Jefferson gets traded for a legit wing and we work with Love/Favors/Pekovic and Whiteside getting some burn when the situation calls for it or the game gets out of hand. Then eventually we trade one of the four and move forward with Rubio, Flynn, Brewer, Favors, Whiteside, Love, Pekovic (-1 of them), and whoever we get for Al or in FA. Rudy Gay soars up my list of wants with this lineup. We would be ridiculously athletic and we don’t really have a ball dominant player so Gay would fit in quite nicely (and imagine the alley oops with Rubio, Gay, Favors, and even Whiteside).
Rudy Gay
I’ve never seen a way that we could get Rudy Gay for the right price. Any free agent deal would have to be ridiculously overpriced.
I’ve seen trades suggested where we move Al in a sign/trade for Gay, but that would require a 3rd team. And, what would Memphis be looking for in return from that team? Gay already turned down 5 yrs $50 million from Memphis, the most I’d go would be 5/$60 million, but hard to see him accepting that really given the number of teams with cap space and few max FA guys out there. Someone will offer Rudy more with a better city as an attraction.
Deng is a more gettable talent and actually would probably be the better player given his superior defense.
Yeah
I think the only way we get Gay is if we go out and offer him a deal the very first thing. He said recently that he wants to go to wherever he is wanted the most and I think he would have to seriously consider 5/60 if we offered it to him the very first day while all the other teams are going after Lebron, Bosh, and Wade. But I really think he would fit well next to Rubio… and especially if we get other non-ball dominant guys like Favors (who could end up being ball dominant if he develops a solid post game), Whiteside, Brewer, Ellington, and Love.
There's still a lot about Rudy that just scares me
He’s performing better this year with a HUGE contract on the line. His defense isn’t thought of as one of his strengths despite the talent to be elite there. He’s not a good 3 point shooter, yet shoots a fair amount of them. It’s hard to see his attitude falling in line with a guy carrying a championship level club.
At $12 million/year, I think Rudy immediately becomes overpaid for what he does. Now we’ve got two highly paid guys (including Al) who aren’t guys that really elevate their team locked into for years. I’d have less of an issue with Gay if we were somehow shipping out Al to get him in a 3 way deal or had another deal in the works moving Al for expirings and prospects/picks.
Rather than signing or trading for Rudy Gay, I think I’d prefer to trade Al for Deng and either Taj Gibson or their pick. That still leaves our cap space to use elsewhere. Deng is a better defender and rebounder.
The thing about Gay playing better this year
is that his stats are almost the exact same across the board. It’s his teammates that are making it seem that way because he is finally surrounded by talent. I’d say it’s pushing it too, but sooner or later the Wolves are going to have to overpay for guys before they can get discounts on guys (vets who want a ring before they retire).
Try this one
I hope I can write it in a way that makes sense. I tend to agree with Blond Ricky that getting Gay may require trading Jefferson. The dynamic this brings into play is that the Wolves can offer Gay what they would have paid Jefferson (in essence overpaying Gay in terms of what the current market would bear) without increasing their payroll. An ideal scenario could be:
Wolves get the #1 pick
NJ gets the #2 pick
Wolves trade down to #2 and select Turner
Wolves get Gay via sign and trade with Memphis
Memphis gets the #1 pick and selects Wall
Memphis gets 2011 1st rounder from NJ
NJ gets Jefferson from MN
NJ gets Mayo from Memphis
Why it makes sense:
On the surface, you could say MN should just sign Gay…but I think most of us believe finances will come into play. The Wolves probably do not want to add seriously to their payroll next season (see season ticket offers)! They drop from Wall to Turner and give up Jefferson, but for no added cost add Gay. If they didn’t have Love it might not make sense, but this allows them to fill two positions while giving Love more PT.
For NJ, they add Jefferson and Mayo to a team that already includes Devin Harris and Brook Lopez. They also still have plenty of cap space, so they add the other piece they need with a free agent.
For Memphis, probably not the best deal…but this is assuming they can’t find a way to keep Gay. Essentially, rather than losing Gay for nothing, they throw Mayo into the mix and wind up with Wall. Gotta be a fan favorite in time, and the perfect guy to keep long term with Gasol.
I completely agree with both of you
I would much rather do a S&T for Jefferson to get Gay, but I think it’s unlikely that a scenario works itself out unless this is exactly how the draft order ends up. And for my two cents, I think Memphis is getting a pretty good deal here if they are already talking about getting rid of Mayo and Thabeet for Monta Ellis. Might even be able to work Thabeet into the deal for us. An issue that we run into is that NJ would effectively be trading away a first rounder for two years in a row. Do they have an extra one this year or would we have to include the Utah pick? I don’t feel like checking right now, sorry (I’m lazy).
I really think that we are getting kind of a raw deal here considering we are basically trading the #2 for the #1 straight up (because we could have easily traded Jefferson for expirings and a pick/prospect at the deadline and come out ahead, and then just sign Gay straight up and keep the #1). So somehow I feel as if we should be able to get more out of this deal and I think that little bit more just might be Thabeet. Then Memphis just has to make sure to take care of their wings somehow…
Also, I am under the assumption that Gay will be leaving Memphis when he can. Obviously I could be very wrong.
Under your top-2 scenario...
And completely unrelated to getting Gay, what about this deal:
To NJ: #1, Al Jefferson, Charlotte pick
To MN: #2, Brook Lopez
New Jersey gets the star talent they want to attract fans, plus another mid-1st rounder in order to make up for the downgrade from Lopez to Jefferson.
The Wolves solve all of their major positional issues and probably upgrade their overall talent as well, in one trade.
Are we giving up too much in this trade? Would New Jersey not give up Lopez? Thoughts?
Wow, that's expensive.
We’re giving up too much in my opinion.
Maybe the Utah pick instead?
For some reason I doubt they’d take Wall and Jefferson for Turner and Lopez straight up… and this would leave us with a line-up of
Rubio/Flynn
Turner/Ellington
Brewer/[CharlottePick]
Love/Pekovic
Lopez/Pekovic/Hollins
So we swap Wall for Turner just for the privilege of swapping Al for Rudy Gay? That is far from an ideal situation in my eyes..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I should have added that I assume the Wolves bring in Rubio
a year later. The problem for the Wolves is that if they get the #1 pick, no matter what they do (unless they keep Flynn, Wall, and Rubio) is that they are bound to be on the short end of any deal.
1. Flynn’s value probably not worth a top 10 pick.
2. Teams will not offer full value for either Wall or Rubio because they will assume the Wolves have to make a move. I’d rather take the hit going from Wall to Turner. Trading Rubio gets lower value and more risk.
Your last point is interesting to think about...
NJ is really hoping for Wall right now and I’d be surprised if they wouldn’t try to sell the house to get him (really would help them lure in some FAs).
At the same time, if they are trying to steal trade value from us, let’s just keep both Rubio and Wall? I don’t see a downside to having the 2-best PG prospects in the league. Especially since I think we could realistically get away with playing them together on most nights.
I agree they can play together most nights
but I fear that come playoff time they will struggle at the end because the better teams are usually bigger at SG.
Here’s the conundrum…As of today’s analysis:
Wall>Rubio
Wall>Turner
Wall & Rubio <=> Rubio & Turner??
I think we should be able to figure out
if they could work together against the better teams. If they can’t, there is no reason that a bidding war couldn’t be started for one or the other.
Ideally, teams would like to fleece us on a trade, but because there are so many teams trying to do the same thing, eventually it will turn into fair value if not slightly higher.
But if they don't work together
how long does it take to figure out? If it doesn’t work, it adds a year to the process, and that’s if they realize in the first year that it may not work. Unfortunately, as with Flynn this year, there is going to be temptation with two talented players to give them another year.
We don’t know if Turner will be as good as Wall, but we already know his type of game will fit next to Rubio.
I should add
Do you think Kahn wants to be in a position where he is trading either Rubio or Wall in the summer of 2012 or 2013 and trying to explain to fans why this is good…especially pesky if Turner is a successful starter on another team (can we all say Curry)!
Ideally we would get it right the first time
but building a franchise takes a lot of trial and error (unless you luck into Lebron). I’d like to say we’d know right away whether it would work or not, and we might, but it could also take a year to see that maybe they won’t work against the bigger SGs in the league.
At the same time though, when a franchise is as bad as ours is right now, you take talent. And Wall/Rubio is talent.
I'd normally agree on your need for talent take
However, a few IFs I must offer:
IF Rubio is as good as many believe, and IF they take Turner and he is as good as many believe, and IF Love reaches the potential many believe he has….Then this team has a lot more talent than most of us can see at this time.
They also have one extra 1st rounder (+2 – pick to LAC), PEK, and a couple extra 2nd rounders. This team is in position to get all the talent they need, if they make the right moves and build a team.
Rubio, Turner, Brewer, Love is 4/5 of a very nice to great starting unit. My guess is the 5th part is either drafted this spring or Darko.
Agreed and agreed
but I still think talent accumulation leads to a better fitting team by means of trades. Draft the most talented players possible, but then trade them for equivalent value in pieces that fit. Boston took it to an extreme, but they are a good summary of what I am trying to say. Rondo, Telfair, Gomes, Pierce, Jefferson, and Perkins are an absolutely terrible fit together. If they didn’t have the greatest shooter ever in Paul Pierce they would have more perimeter scoring problems than the Wolves do now and 2 post guys who are clogging the lane for drivers. But they still took talent and were able to trade it for the actual greatest shooter ever (maybe not quite… but it’s close) and a guy who fit perfectly next to Perkins (or anyone for that matter, damn KG was good) and could still open up space for Pierce and Rondo to do their work.
We may not be the first team that Jefferson brings a title to, but we sure as hell can be the second! Let’s trade him for our own “KG”! That last sentence hurt to type because of the sad irony…
But really, assets don’t lead to a good basketball team, but assets lead to pieces that lead to a good basketball team. Let’s draft all sorts of pegs and trade the square ones to teams with square holes for round ones to fit our round holes…. that sounds strange…
Again, you make sense
but how often do these Celtics type of deals actually get done? Other teams have been full of talent but unable to make deals to balance their teams. The issue becomes, if the Wolves take Wall, maybe he is a 10 while Rubio is a 9. OK makes sense, but who is the 9 SG that the Wolves can get for Rubio? Teams are going to know the Wolves need to make a move and not give equal talent. It seems that from a talent standpoint, there is seldom a fair trade in the NBA, somebody usually loses…I think in this case the Wolves have a hard time being the winner. One other thing, it seems over the last month the gap between Turner and Wall has shrunk, if it shrinks anymore the talent difference may not be as great.
Funny you brought up Ray Allen (I assume that is the shooter you mentioned). I was just reading a review of Turner, and about half way thru it occurred to me the Wolves went down this path about 15 years ago. Rather than taking the less risky player (Allen) they went for upside (Marbury). If they keep Allen, the Wolves probably have a title or two. I think this memory is a major reason I am starting to hope the Wolves get Turner. Sometimes it makes sense to take the sure thing if it is good enough, vs shooting for the moon and taking extra risk. I would even go as far as to say that Ray Allen was more successful than the John Wall of that draft (Iverson).
Not often
but at the same time, I’m not talking about to the extent that they took it. I’m more looking at acquiring as much talent as possible, and then later trading Wall (if both PGs turn out to be successful, I would rather trade Wall than Rubio) to a team that needs a PG and has an excess of good shooters or good defenders/passers. You’re absolutely right though in that it’s extremely difficult to find these deals. But along the same lines, it’s extremely difficult to go deep into the playoffs. And if we’re destined to be a 5-8th seed, I would rather watch a Rubio/Wall backcourt.
As for safe picks and upside picks… The Timberwolves provide us with a couple more good examples: Foye/Roy and McCants/Granger. Safe besides possible injury history that is. But still more talented. And I’m also convinced that we would have won a title or two with Marbury if he hadn’t been a headcase. Him and KG could flat out play. And play together. Damnit! That was sooo much fun to watch.
Plus, Ray Allen and KG could never win a title together, that’s just preposterous!
The irony of Allen & KG winning a title in
Boston is tough to swallow.
I’m glad you mentioned you might end up trading Wall. See, this is why I figure just take Turner now, because in a couple years if they try to trade Wall I don’t think they get anything better than Turner…why delay the inevitable?
The Marbury thing I find interesting is that even at that time many analysts thought he would be a head case and the Wolves would suffer. I actually read stories at the time of the draft that really predicted the future. There is a reason the Bucks were willing to make the deal (very similar to the Wolves decision if the have lottery luck). He scared me from the beginning although I too had high hopes. I just really wonder if head cases are really worth taking in the NBA, they seem to flame out a lot.
That's one opinion
I think Wall will be more valuable in a couple years than Turner. Maybe not more productive, but more valuable. And I’d wager more productive as well.
I wasn’t old enough at the time to have a knowledgable interest in the Wolves so I don’t really remember the hype coming in.
Sadly though,
Being a Wolves fan most of this discussion is irrelevant. We have to debate Wall/Turner now because we know as soon as the lottery is done the debate becomes who to take with the 4th pick!
And then we get to start all over again!
But as you may have noticed, there has already been some “just in case” discussion about Cousins and Favors.
So….
5th pick?
Whiteside
The Charlotte pick would be a big drop wouldn’t it? I doubt he lasts that long if the current buzz carries through.
I doubt he will drop that much too
but it’s not entirely unlikely seeing how quickly he moved up the boards. Small sample sizes can easily be reversed.
It would look nice, but it still doesn’t look right without seeing Turner’s name in there somewhere. I’ve set myself up for a huge letdown haven’t I?
I'll hate to see how you take it
when they announced that they traded Blond Ricky ;-)
I'd take it
We have to set ourselves up in case we don’t get one of the top 2 picks (~60% this happens). I think the ransom the top 2 pick teams will be asking for would be too much in a legit 2 star draft. Trading Al for the best wing possible gives us:
Rubio/Flynn
Henry/Ellington
Deng?/Brewer
Love/Pekovic
Favors/Pekovic/Hollins
this puts us in the playoffs in 2-3 years and about where we were with Garnett. We would still need to replace Deng with a #1 star to be a championship contender but we just have to hope for a little luck then.
Favors just needs a lot of “seasoning” and won’t be a guy that is a big contributor next season, I’m just not sure as a fan I would be willing to wait a season or two before this guy can make an impact, I just don’t see the Wolves wanting to take on a project like that, but yes, his athleticism is top notch for a PF, but have you seen the guy try to shoot or dribble, it’s scary.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Mar 1, 2010 8:25 PM CST reply actions
Favors is a project, but that high in the draft you’ve got to take the best talent. Favors should be able to at least help defensively right?
If Brewer can improve
then Favors can improve. Besides, this team is building towards Rubio, so a year of seasoning for Favors is just fine by me. I’d rather him have a year to learn what he needs to improve on (like Jonny Flynn) then not.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Why do you guys want Favors
when we have Love? They are both PF’s. You guys want to overload the team with PF’s even MORE??? That doesn’t make sense. We have no use for Favors unless he can play SF, which he can’t at this point. Whiteside is a project, but would be a much smarter pick for us as he is a true Center with sick athleticism like Andrew Bynum.
Wall
Turner
Cousins (Center)
Johnson
Whiteside
should be our top 5. Favors, Aminu, Monroe, and Aldrich would be interchangable after that point.
Because
he may be the best talent available at that point. Also, it’s not so much about positional fit as it is about functional fit. The issue isn’t that Love and Jefferson are both power forwards as much as it is that they’re both unathletic, poor-defending power forwards. Favors would complement Love and Jefferson much better than either one complements each other because he is athletic and mobile, and can defend the paint and “stretch 4s.”
So that makes Favors a role player for us then?
I mean, the point is that there are only so many minutes to go around. Is it not smarter to draft a guy that can play with Love than one that simply “compliments” him? We don’t want to spend a top 5 pick on a guy that can’t fit in our starting lineup. Unless you want Love to be satisfied playing 20 minutes a game. See if he re-signs with us in 2 years.
My take on Favors
I don’t want Cousins, at all. Dude reeks of problems with attitude and maturity.
My interest in Favors is rooted in the belief that Al will be moved this offseason. You’re absolutely right that Favors doesn’t have a spot on a team with Al, Love, and whoever’s playing center. I believe that if we pick between 3-5 (sadly is the most likely option), then Kahn goes gangbusters to move Al for perimeter help and picks Favors as Favors is the highest upside guy available and fits well next to Love.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
The only issue I would see with Favors and Love
And before I say this I should qualify it with the fact that I also think that Jefferson is on his way out.
Anyways, if we are playing a team like Orlando, Favors takes the quicker guy who can shoot the 3 and that leaves Love on Dwight… Is it better to have Love chasing the shooters and Favors trying to keep Dwight out of the paint? I don’t know, and that’s where my issue comes in. Anything else though I think Love and Favors work very well together. If Love develops a post game, we turn those mismatches the other way.
Darko
hence the continued importance of being able to keep/add a player like Darko. It’s not perfect, but guys like Howard and Rashard have to sit sometimes and so in the particular example you cite (which I totally get) Love could play unless both were in. And even then Love’s ability to mismatch with one or the other offensively (take Dwight away from the basket or Rashard close to the basket) might make it a wash over short periods of time (in other words he won’t get completely torched on offense). You’re never going to win every matchup, but what if Favors also shows/develops a nice scoring touch? A rotation of those three with Pek off the bench could be quite a handful for any team to deal with. That said, I’d still prefer Turner, but Favors is growing on me for the #3-4 spot in the draft.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
True
But Ryan Anderson is the backup in Orlando… We’d need a Gomes-esque player to man the 3/4 combo spot to be effective. Like you said though, can’t win every matchup, just have to make sure you don’t lose by enough that your offense can counter it effectively.
I’ve had Favors as my 3rd prospect this whole year, mostly because I like what he brings to the table (and I’ve been a proponent of seeing Jefferson go), I never jumped on the Wes Johnson bandwagon (I like 2-way players… too much so sometimes), and I disagree with making such rash decisions on draft boards. Favors was touted as the second prospect coming into the year for a reason. And he is really taking a knock for not being the first fiddle at GT, but I am of the opinion that that is a good thing. He won’t come in and demand minutes as a starter. He seems to realize that he has to earn things. While it’d be nice to see better production, I think he has shown enough to justify the pick still worth his upside and current production (it’s pretty impressive despite what people might have you believe).
If you're highlighting physical differences for one guy over the other
Note that they’re not that much different, based on the measurables we have now; Favors is an inch shorter and twenty five pounds lighter, but he’s also 11 months younger. Depending on vertical reach, arm span and vertical jump, we could easily see a swing from one guy to the other in terms of physical advantage.
I'm thinking after the predraft workouts and measurements are all said and done
Favors will have a 9’2’’ish standing reach with a much better vertical than Cousins.
Favors' measurements seem to vary
I’ve seen him listed at 6’9 or 6’11. Whiteside seems to be a legit 7 footer and a definite Center at the NBA level. We’ll see where they are once the real testing begins.
His measurements will be important
It strikes me that in the best case scenario, Favors is a sort of a physical clone of Dwight Howard, who plays center.
Howard was measured at 6’10.25" in shoes and weighed 240 in his pre draft measurements. Favors is listed at the same 6’10"/246, but of course, he hasn’t been measured yet.
He strikes me as the clear 3rd pick for this team right now.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 2, 2010 7:24 AM CST up reply actions
Cousins is not a "legit C"
There is no circumstance in which he’d be the best pick for us. He mirrors all the problems we have with Al, and the “cheaper Al clone that makes him expendable” argument doesn’t fly, because we already have that in Nikola Pekovic, too.
Not a legit C?
That goes against everything I’ve heard about him.. 6-11 270 at 19 years old is not a Center in the NBA? Cousins is a monster and he could conceivably still grow taller. He’s not super athletic. Other than that how is he not a Center?
Fine, he's a legit center.
And so is Al Jefferson, Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace, Al Horford, Andrea Bargnani, Nick Collison…
If by your definition, a legit center is anyone who could conceivably play center, then sure, he qualifies. My definition of a legit center is the true 7 footer with no positional ambiguity who is a defensive presence that you’d put alongside a PF/C ’tweener like Cousins.
Why bother using an adjective if you’re only going to expand the realm of what it describes to the point of it losing all meaning? What’s the difference between a center and a legit center if guys listed as a PF at the college level qualify? What nomenclature do we use to specify centers like Aldrich, Dampier, Bynum, etc? Legitimately legit center?
But your definition doesn't really wash in today's NBA
My definition of a legit center is the true 7 footer with no positional ambiguity
This doesn’t define the center position right now. Cousins, for example, is probably bigger than Dwight Howard, who is the best center in the NBA.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 2, 2010 7:47 AM CST up reply actions
Dwight is very much an isolated case. He was measured at 6’10 at age 18, so I highly doubt he’s still that short. He also has a monstrous wingspand and absolutely freakish explosiveness which allows him to play much bigger than his height. Cousins (or anyone, really) is nowhere near his level athletically, so it’s important that they have the size to bang with true C’s (IMO).
If Cousins was a monster defensively, then I’d be 100% behind ranking him high for the Wolves, but he just seems like a slightly larger Al with lots of red flags. I’d much rather gamble on Favors and his huge potential. A guy who can get somewhere between Horford and Howard is better than a bigger Big Al for this team.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Oh, I'd rather take Favors as well
I’d bet on the athlete without the apparent focus problems. I don’t think size is Cousins’ problem, though. I think he’s big enough.
I doubt Howard has gotten taller, though he’s obviously put on weight.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 2, 2010 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
I think you could argue that Al Hoford is a legit center.
He starts next to an ultra-athletic PF in Josh Smith. The difference is that he is extremely athletic and plays solid defense—two things that Al is not, or does not do.
What qualifies Aldrich, Dampier, Bynum, etc. as centers istheir ability to defend legit centers (Howard, Shaq, Yao, Kaman, Oden)
Camby, Rasheed, Bosh qualify because they can defend centers.
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
He didn't look like one the other night vs Milwaukee...
Bogut had his way with Horford on the low block. Bogut is a legit center. Horford couldn’t guard him one-on-one, and the reason was size.
Horford is barely bigger than Love. He works because he’s versatile and athletic like most of Atlanta, but he’s going to get abused down low by a team with a true C. The guy’s like 6’10 with a barely 7’ wingspan, which gives him less reach than even Big Al.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
BUT, he is a very good defender overall, and even if he can be shot over in the post he’s still going to be a net plus to have on the floor with his ability to guard pick and rolls and not be a weakness when pulled out of the paint. So I’d have to say that, overall, it’s the combination of size/length AND athletic versatility that makes a C. That’s why the best defensvie C’s have been long, athletic sinewy guys like Camby/Mutumbo/Hakeem etc. The problem is, those guys are pretty rare, so you’re by and large better off going with whoever has the best combo of athleticism/size/defensive instincts over a guy who just has size.
Whiteside is the frustrating enigma. His physical profile is absolutely ideal, but is he just another Patrick O’Bryant?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Half of those guys you mentioned
play soft. They don’t have the strength and demeaner that Cousins has. He is not going to get pushed around. He has the size AND the attitude to play the position. That is what makes him a Center and them “tweeners”.
That's not the point
You shouldn’t have to split hairs. A true/legit center is a center with no doubts that he is a center. The mere fact that we have to argue about it makes him not a legit center.
Is it not enough to call Cousins a center? It feels like the OP is just being dishonest by trying to sell him as “legit,” so as to downplay the holes in Cousins’ game (defense, shot-blocking) that are things you’d want from a center, ideally.
So Cousins can grow
but the younger (I think) Favors can’t?
Yeah.. I really think C has more to do with mentality and defensive ability. Not size.
Quality NBA Centers (sizes from ESPN.com):
Kendrick Perkins: 6’10" 280
Al Horford: 6’10" 245
Chris Andersen: 6’10" 228
Ben Wallace: 6’9" 240
You could make the argument that Horford and Wallace are not even this tall. The point is that when looking at who we draft, his size is not as important as his commitment to defense, his wingspan, and his shot-blocking ability.
Don't forget
the 6’-6" maestro in the middle Chuck Hayes.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
I really feel the Charlotte pick
could end up being just as important as our top pick. Let’s get real. We’re cursed when it comes to ping pong balls. We’ll probably get pick #4. We like Whiteside, but that is too high for him (that being said nbadraft.net has him at 5, wow). If Cousins goes 3 then Favors would be a logical choice. As would W. Johnson, but let’s assume we’re trading Al and Favors measures out at the “quality NBA center size”. If we get the Charlotte pick, that pick amplifies in importance as our #1 targets (Turner, Wall) were not acquired. I would concentrate on getting a shooter at that point and would hope that either Henry or James Anderson fall to that spot. Hell I see Alabi has dropped to pick #26 on that site, we could get him with the Utah pick if that were the case. I like the Al/Gay sign and trade idea. If things came out as they could, you roll with:
Flynn/Rubio
Anderson or Henry/Ellington
Gay/Brewer
Love/Pek/Favors
Favors/Alabi
I can roll with that. If Rubio were to come over that lineup would be insane. Young yes, but fun to watch, and a playoff team in a couple years.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
I saw we draft
the guy SnP says in now #2 in Hoopus score.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Yeah I agree. Jeff Taylor looks great.
He’s got great size at 6-7. He’d be a great wing prospect especially with that Charlotte pick. I’d expect him to be taken if we miss out on Turner or Wall. The real interesting thing is this: what happens if the Charlotte pick stays top 12 (which it is right now) and we get the number 4 overall but Favors is gone? To me that is the worst possible scenario. I know that Cousins is incredibly talented, but I really don’t want to have to cheer for him….
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
Take Jeff Taylor!
I kid, I kid. Probably go with Cole unless you think Wes Johnson is too good a fit on this team.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
I really don't like Wes Johnson.
He scares me. I know he’s got great size but I just keep seeing Ryan Gomes in him. I’m sure he’ll be better, but his defense is lacking.
I do like Aldrich. He plays solid D but can’t really do anything on offense. It’d be kinda scary with him and Love in the starting lineup. You’d really have to have a stud-scoring wing. I mean, picture this lineup:
PG Rubio
SG Ellington
SF Brewer
PF Love
C Aldrich
Which player there is capable of averaging more than 17 a game? And really only Love could do that. Rubio will prolly average 13, Ellington in his prime might get you 17, Brewer will never pass 15 a game, and Aldrich’s ceiling is probably 12-14 ppg.
I’m all for drafting Aldrich, but we better either keep Jefferson or sign Gay because there will be no scoring outside of those two…
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
That lineup
does nothing for me for the reason you mentioned – no killer and consistent scorer. Until this team gets that from one of the wing positions we’re winning around 20 games. Ellington, Brewer, and even Love are top quality reserves for a contending team. Too early to tell about Aldrich. He could be a Brooke Lopez or an Eric Montross.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
Wes will be much better than Gomes
They’re really not even comparable at all. People really reach to critique Wes, and most people don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
That scenario would suck, yes....
If we assume glass half empty scenarios for the whole deal – we get pick 4, Turner, Wall, and Favors have already been picked, we don’t end up dealing Al, we don’t end up getting Gay or Deng in free agency, Whiteside doesn’t come out, we lose the Charlotte pick, Rubio stays in Euro another year. Man my stomach just turned but this will probably be our luck. I suppose we’d have to go with Wes Johnson at 4 and pray someone falls to the Utah pick that is unexpected.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
Dude. Prepare for the worst. This is a Minnesota sports franchise we're talking about.
The Kirby Pucketts, Kevin Garnetts, and Joe Mauers are once a decade type things. Not claiming the sky is gonna fall, I just think you should find some shelter just in case
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
I know I know...
That’s what I’m saying. People need to prepare for the worst. Odds are half of all of the things I mentioned will or won’t happen. We’re due for some good luck here aren’t we??
Temporary Bobcats Fan
We are so overdue that it is no longer funny.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Not to be negative, but I thought the Vikes were overdue for a NFC
championship win as well. Either way, we end up with Wall, Turner, Favors, or Cousins. Anyone of these four could be perennial all-stars.
I just think we gotta get at least one because this team needs star potential. I just hope its not Cousins.
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
You know what the truth is?
Perhaps the thing that will have the biggest impact on us (short of getting our star in the top three picks) is what happens with the Utah pick and FA. What I mean is that the top teams do well late in the draft and with cheaper, overlooked FAs. Ellington’s been a nice pick up, and actually Damien has been too. But Hollins – ugh. Pavs? Double ugh. This team could improve 5-6 wins next year alone by simply upgrading the 8-12 guys in the rotation, especially if they are a very good specialist in something (threes or D).
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Good point
I would say they need to improve 6-12, but same idea. In order to properly develop the young guys, they should be surrounded by guys like Wilkins or Darko, not guys like Hollins or Pavs or even Gomes. The role players need to bring it every night.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 2, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
I've been saying for a while now
that we have by far the best bench in the league… we just don’t have good starters. I think as we draft and sign (hopefully) people in FA, our current starters will move to the bench and we will see a drastic upgrade in talent, not because we are replacing Corey Brewer with Evan Turner, but because we are replacing Sasha Pavlovic with Evan Turner.
Twice in a decade?
The nineties gave us Garnett and Moss (say what you will, the man is one of the best), and so far we have Mauer and AP dominating the 2000s. The 80s had a little better luck, but nothing in line with Puckett, just more all around unsuckiness.
But just remember, it’s a new decade!
So we’re basically due for a basketball stud, is what you’re saying?
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I believe the correct response here is
I’m not saying, I’m just saying.
I've said this before...
But there is a VERY good chance that Turner will drop…
If Golden State or Detroit gets the 2nd pick, what are the odds that they get enamored with Favors (who will look great in work outs and fills a position of extreme need) and pick him at number 2 over Turner. I say very high.
It sounds crazy now, but you would have said last year at this time that the prospect of Rubio falling to 5 was crazy too.
Or crazy as in Washington would trade their #5 pick for Foye and Miller
"Never make predictions, especially about the future." Casey Stengel
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
…….the tears…of joy.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Mar 3, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
Just think
immediately after we drafted Rubio, we were offered, IIRC, Aaron Brooks and Shane Battier. Think Washington could get that deal now for Foye and Miller?
With all the turmoil in Washington
this deal may end up a little better for Washington than it looked originally. I would think they now want Foye and Miller to stick around (for the right money of course). Still a bad deal, but they may end up getting decent run out of Foye, and maybe Miller.
Yeah.. I could maaaaaybe see that.
But the reason Rubio dropped wasn’t necessarily because other players impressed more, it was more that he refused to play for Memphis. But I see your point. Had OKC or SAC had the #2 pick, they would have passed on Rubio as well. Those are really the only two teams in the entire lottery that pass on Rubio though. Everyone would have taken Rubio 2nd or 3rd. We were very lucky to snag him at 5. It still surprises me that people complain about that pick. That was very, very fortunate for the Wolves.
How many teams will pass on Turner though?? I mean, really. Here’s the lottery as of this morning (each team’s response to securing the #2 pick with Wall off the board):
NJN—Favors over Turner maybe, since they have Williams and Lee
MIN—Turner or bust, Khan has all but said it
GSW—They’ve got Randolph and Biedrins already, what they need is a quality SF
SAC—Turner would be perfect alongisde Evans
IND—Indy needs 2 things: decent SG and starting PG. Turner could be both
UTA—Turner perfect SF fit on this team
DET—Another team that might pick Favors over Turner since they already have 2 SGs
WAS—Turner is the perfect player to build a franchise around.
PHI—Perfect replacement for soon-to-be-departed Iggy.
LAC—needs a SF more than any other position
CHA—his defense and maturity would synch with Larry Brown
HOU—Houston is smart, which means they wouldn’t pass on Turner
MEM—can afford to let Rudy Gay go if they got this lucky
NOH—this franchise is a disaster plus they’ve got a decent PF and C already
Clarification please...
How is NOH a disaster? They by far had the best draft (as far as value) of any team last year. Collison and Thornton turned out to be tremendous picks. If we could only be so lucky to hit on 2 quality picks in this year’s draft….
Temporary Bobcats Fan
Yeah I guess..
I meant a disaster in terms of them being a perennial 6-9th best team in the West. They did have a good draft.
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Sacto and OKC question
How does everyone perceive Turner as compared to Tyreke? I’d imagine Tyreke would win the scoring battle, but Turner most everything else.
Also, a rhetorical question: if OKC landed the number 1 pick, who would they take?
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
I like Turner much better. I think he can play any role in an offense, whereas Tyreke seems to be very dependent on having the ball. I see Turner as equally effective on and off the ball. He can come off screens and knock down jumpers, he can spot up etc. but he can also create really well with the ball in his hands.
Good question re: OKC, and I really don’t know. The bigs in this draft just don’t seem good enough to justify passing on Wall or Turner, even with their massive hole up front. Let’s just hope that doesn’t happen.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
They take Wall most likely.
And then Presti has the option to keep him, or trade him for a big man (Favors or a veteran) and probably other assets.
And I agree with LoveTo; this scenario would anger me to no end.
No doubt
I posed the OKC bit essentially to frame the Wall/Turner question as a value judgment centered around Westbrook, and I suppose to a lesser extent Durant (although he’s clearly the number one guy here). My thinking is that they’d probably take Turner simply because he can do more (is better than Harden), and simply because they already have Westbrook. I guess I just don’t buy the whole Wall is a can’t miss thing. If we got him at 2 I’d be ecstatic, but I just don’t see how you justify taking him when we already have Rubio and Turner is about as safe of a high upside pick as you can get. If we only had Flynn and no Rubio, things would be different.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
NJ would be our candidate
assuming they get the 2nd pick (21.5%) and we don’t get the first, they would either pick Favors or deal us the pick. Since we have a 40% of getting either the first or second pick, would this mean that we have about a 55-60% of landing Turner/Wall?
Haha, true.
Kinda like, “Well, you know Roy has had knee issues in the past… and Granger seems to be pretty injury prone..”
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Ah Johnny boy
You’re just nervous that you might not go number one in the draft if we get the top pick. ;)
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Nice, those aren't bad odds. I like it.
So we land Turner with the #2 pick. Great. I think we still gotta deal Jefferson tho. Here’s my proposal: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
It’s been mentioned before:
CHI sends: Gibson and Hinrich/Deng + own pick (17)
MIN sends: Jefferson + UTA pick (25)
CHI gets an interior scorer to pair with Noah’s defense without losing any Dwayne Wade cap space. MIN gets their coveted “3rd big” (assuming Milicic stays, which is probably unrealistic).
James Anderson should be available at 17. Which would leave us with a formidable lineup for the future:
G—Flynn—Sessions
G—Turner—Ellington
F—Brewer—Anderson
F—Love—Gibson
C—Milicic—Gibson
Of course this leads to trading Flynn or Sessions to free up minutes for Rubio in 2011-12
I think Flynn gets moved
next season, unless he shows improvement this summer in shot selection and defense. Then he could be an Aaron Brooks type, otherwise he needs to be in a different system. If I were Rambis I’d wait and see what Flynn does, but of the two I’d want Sessions as my backup behind Rubio.
This summer will be really interesting because we’ll find out just how much influence Rambis has on player movement and acquisition. It will say a lot if Al and Flynn are moved. However, my guess is that Rambis is willing to give Flynn another year (and hopefully with a better surrounding cast) to see what he can do. I think the odds are better than 50-50 that Al gets moved this summer, even if the pieces we receive only upgrade our number 4-8 players.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
I think Flynn absolutely gets another year and then they’ll decide if Flynn or Sessions should be Rubio’s back-up.
Rambis’ influence in the draft will be interesting to watch. I think most agree that he would have pushed for Curry knowing how perfect he’d be in triangle.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Mar 2, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
ESPN’s Updated Draft Stock – March 2nd
Stock Up
Evan Turner, G/F, Ohio State
It’s hard to put into words how hard NBA executives have fallen for Turner. His play since returning from a back injury has been stellar. If John Wall didn’t have such superstar potential, Turner would have a legit shot at going No. 1.
Turner’s do-it-all game has GMs salivating. They love players who can play three positions and Turner has proven night in and night out that he’ll be able to do that in the pros. His leadership, ball handling skills, floor vision, scoring ability and rebounding ability should make him comperable to Brandon Roy at the next level.
While teams still have some concern about his deep range and a few GMs continue to remind me that they’ll be taking a close look at his back MRI, I don’t think it’s stretch to say that Turner is close to locking down the No. 2 spot in the draft.
DeMarcus Cousins and Derrick Favors could both give him a run if the team drafting No. 2 were to need a big man. But with Cousins’ personality issues and Favors’ so-so production, I think Turner gets the nod in virtually every scenario.
Xavier Henry, G, Kansas
Henry rose all the way to No. 5 on our Big Board earlier this year before hitting a major midseason speed bump. Henry’s shot stopped falling and his role with the team receded as veterans Sherron Collins and Cole Aldrich took over in conference play.
Henry’s stock quickly began to slide and scouts questioned whether he had anything else to his game besides a jump shot. Over the past few weeks, though, Henry has finally found his groove again. His shot has started falling and he’s started to get a little more aggressive taking the ball to the basket. In key Big 12 matchups against Texas, Colorado and Oklahoma, Henry looked like the most talented Jayhawk on the floor again.
His recent increase in production has put him back into the late-lottery discussion. While he’s not ready to crack the top 10 any time soon, if he can stay hot through the Big 12 and NCAA tournaments, he could make it back there by draft night.
Jeff Taylor, F, Vanderbilt
I came into the season very high on Taylor. He’s a terrific athlete who can play multiple positions. After a strong end to his freshman campaign, I didn’t think it was out of the question that he could be ranked as a lottery pick by now.
Alas, Taylor got off to a slow start in front of a number of NBA scouts at the Maui Invitational and stayed in a funk until February. However, this month he’s begun to show the promise we saw in November.
What’s changed is Taylor’s aggressiveness. He’s taking more shots and more importantly, putting the ball on the floor and getting to the basket with much more regularity. When he does this, it’s hard to stop him. His best game was a big Vandy win over Tennessee. Taylor went 7-for-12 from the field and a perfect 12-for-12 from the line. He also had a big game against Ole Miss and was good, but not great, against Kentucky.
If Taylor can put up a big performance or two in the tournament, he’s the type of player that could shoot up the rankings quickly based on his athletic profile. Right now we have him in the 20s on our Big Board, but there’s room for him to go higher.
Stock Down
Solomon Alabi, C, Florida State
Size rises as we get closer to the draft, but lately, Alabi’s been sinking. The big man from Africa has his admirers, but lately he’s not played worthy of a lottery pick. Alabi has scored in double figures just once in the last six games. Even more pathetic, he’s averaging fewer than 4 rebounds per game in his last six. While Alabi has his eye on declaring for the NBA this spring, he might want to think twice.
A number of GMs I spoke with no longer have him ranked in their top 14. For someone with so much athletic potential, he might be better off returning to school for his junior season and proving to scouts that he can, at the very least, rebound and block shots.
Jordan Hamilton, F, Texas
There is no question that Hamilton is teeming with talent. He’s a Rashard Lewis-type small forward who can let it fly from distance. But Hamilton, more than any other Longhorn, has really hurt his stock this season with poor shot selection and even worse basketball IQ.
Even when Hamilton gets hot (against Oklahoma State and Missouri for example) the reaction from scouts has been tempered. His bad shots are going in, nothing more.
It will be interesting to see what Hamilton does. From the sound of things, he and Rick Barnes don’t really see eye-to-eye and he’d like to make the jump. Scouts see him as a potential lottery pick down the road — but not this year. If he declares now, he could slip all the way to the second round.
Midrange Game
- Syracuse sensation Wesley Johnson has been struggling of late, but scouts aren’t too concerned. Two injuries suffered in games in February (a bruised hip and a bruised hand) have cooled him down considerably.
Johnson recently told the New York Times that his shooting hand still swells and it makes it difficult for him to catch the ball. Once he gets healthy again, I’d expect him to return to form. Right now Johnson looks like a lock for the top 10.
- Marshall big man Hassan Whiteside continues to wow scouts. Whiteside posted his third triple-double of the season, going for 14 points, 11 rebounds and 13 blocks against Central Florida last week.
GMs have been flocking to Marshall games the past few weeks to get a good look at him before the draft. Given his age and his hot draft stock, the word is that he’s likely to declare. While he’s a bit of a project, he too looks like he’s got a great chance of cracking the top 10. We’ve had him in the lottery for the past few weeks and he continues to climb.
- UNC forward John Henson may not declare for this year’s draft, but lately he has shown why many scouts had him rated as one of the top three talents in this year’s freshman class. With Ed Davis out the rest of the season, Henson has stepped into the starting power forward role and has played well. His scoring numbers aren’t off the charts, but he delivers in a number of other ways.
The chances are likely that Henson will return to school for his sophomore year. He needs to add a lot of strength and polish to his game. If he does return, expect him to be a top 10 prospect in 2011.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Mar 2, 2010 12:06 PM CST reply actions
Saw this.
Between Simmons and Ford, the “Turner challenging Wall for number 1” chatter is starting to heat up, and depending on what happens in the NCAA tournament, could absolutely explode. I’m starting to think the Wolves take Turner #1.
I think
the wolves probably would take him with the top pick. But it can easily be argued that doing that would be a mistake. Wall could be a once a decade kind of PG. I wouldn’t be upset if we took Turner #1 though.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
If Wall is the best PG in the league in 5 years
and Rubio is an All-Star at the same time, is it that big of a drop off, with the benefit being that they add Turner?
If we only knew
if Ricky was coming for sure then drafting Turner would be a lot easier at #1. But we just don’t know that.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
Yeah but Rubio's only route to the NBA is through MIN
And he has expressed desire to play in this league. True, we may only have him for 3-4 years, but it could turn into a LeBron situation where the desire to play for NYK is countered by how terrible NYK is and how good MIN is when that time comes.
by SF on Mar 2, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, if the Wolves get the #1 pick
who Kahn takes will probably be the ultimate clue as to Rubio’s future. If Kahn takes Wall, he may be worried about Rubio. If Kahn takes Turner, he obviously believes Rubio will be a Wolf relatively soon.
If Wall wasn't in this draft
I think most of us would be salivating about Turner and why he is the perfect fit for the Wolves, and of course the Wolves would never get the #1 pick. If the object is to build a contending “Team” and not just a lot of talented players, Turner may be perfect.
Something I really find interesting in Turner is his ability to play 3 positions. There are a lot of guys who play multiple positions, but for many it is because they have weaknesses at each position that makes them a tweener. With Turner, he seems more like a SG who has the ability to also play PG and SF.
Hassan Whiteside
I haven’t seen him play, but just from reading this blurb, the parallels with Olawakandi are scary.
by BVP on Mar 2, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
Malcolm Lee
One of the regulars here (sorry I don’t remember who it was) had an interest in Malcom Lee. I’ve watched just a couple of UCLA games since then and continue to be unimpressed. Of course, he’s dealing with two problems. First, it seems he’s playing out of position at the point, and really is more of a 2. Second, UCLA’s zone defense has obscured some of his defensive strength. What I really wanted to to was make sure that whoever had the Lee interest didn’t miss this recent scouting report from David Thorpe.
“UCLA has become “Point Guard U” recently, with Russell Westbrook, Jrue Holiday and Darren Collison all going in the top 20 of the last two drafts. All three have already proven to be NBA worthy, with Westbrook being a rising star and Holiday already a starter, despite being the league’s youngest player.
Can Malcolm Lee, who, unlike Westbrook and Holiday, actually plays the position at UCLA, pull out some similar magic?
There is a lot to like about Lee’s size and athleticism as a point guard, and his defensive abilities clearly project well going forward, thanks to the excellent defensive system he plays in. With NBA training camp being so short, players who arrive in the NBA with a strong defensive IQ have a leg up on their competition.
Westbrook and Holiday had some red flags, in a sense, that were similar to Lee’s as offensive point guards. All struggled to shoot the 3, and Lee is currently below 30 percent from distance this season. Westbrook made up for it, in some respects, by being both a tremendous winner and projecting to be perhaps the best athlete for his position in the NBA. Holiday played off the ball and never looked comfortable, but quickly showed shooting talent in NBA workouts, along with natural point guard abilities. Lee isn’t the athlete Westbrook is and he is the PG for a down UCLA squad, so he does not get any benefit of the doubt. That’s troublesome for someone with a below average shot.
Lee gets a great arc and almost always follows through well with good balance. However, that is not a good sign going forward. I like players who make shots with poor shooting mechanics much more than guys who miss shots while looking good. He does have an inconsistent wrist snap, which can be troublesome to fix, but could be a difference-maker if he can work this out.
Lee likes to slash to the hole and is smart about the angles he uses. He’ll be a better finisher once he gains strength, but he does not play the game as a point-producer for others. He is focused far more on scoring — much more so than Westbrook and Holiday, and of course Collison too. His passing and vision are suspect, as is his decision-making with the ball.
Unless something remarkable happens in the next month, Lee will be someone who will be evaluated strongly again next season at UCLA."
I’d agree with everything he’s saying. Most importantly that it would be surprising to see Lee enter the draft this year.
That was me
thanks for the info!
I would still be excited if we picked him up in the second round somehow. He really seems to have a lot of potential and I wanted him mostly as a defensive stopper to put on guys like Wade, Chris Paul, etc. Low risk, high reward. Although the reward is unlikely to be realized for a few years.
He said earlier this year that he was coming out because he was unhappy with his role at UCLA, but that may have changed recently as he has gotten more PT. I think he needs another year too, but I’d find it difficult to pass on him if he did come out. Just because I don’t want to waste a second rounder on a guy who used to weight 400+ lbs (sorry PoorDick, I know he’s your top prospect this year).
Lots of chatter here, I like it
I’m posting a Mock + Board up sometime after this weekend, so I hope everyone still feels like talking draft… especially since SNP is posting his hoopus score relatively soon, which compounds the draft overload which may happen on this site.
The parts of the debate I read here about Cousins being a C or not – the guy can play C in the NBA in my opinion, and he should play C. He won’t be at a disadvantage there as his game, at least what’s being shown at UK, is basically him being around the hoop. Defensively, I don’t think it matters what position he plays since he has the athleticism/strength/length to guard both at the same level, but he’s not a shot altering force at the rim nor is he an elite or great man defender, so many in Minnesota may wince at the thought of him being the pick if they miss out on the top-2.
However, a 6’10 or 6’11 guy with 7’3+ wingspan who weighs 260+ and is a bully inside (should translate to the NBA) is a Center… especially when he’s good with his feet and isn’t a plodder. He’s likely taller, longer, stronger, and more athletic than Al; and he is spectacular at getting to the line.
I know you aren't talking about just me
but I want to clarify my opinion as I have given it many a time on this topic. But I don’t think Cousins will be bad. On the contrary. I think he will be a tremendous player, borderline allstar someday. But I think that Favors can be a better version of Al Horford and that’s something nice to think about. Much more of a 2 way player.
What are you thoughts on Favors and Favors v Cousins?
Sorry didn't see a response, been kind of busy
Wasn’t calling anyone out with my response, just stating my opinion on the matter concerning Cousins.
As far as thoughts on Favors and Favors vs Cousins, I just posted something on KFAN earlier today or yesterday (love it when days blend together…), but basically my thoughts are that I have a hard time putting one ahead of the other right now and they’re sitting 3 and 4. I like Favors, but feel like his first few seasons in the league will be relatively low-key while he’s learning how to create for himself at the NBA level and continues to work on his jump shot which I rarely (and I mean rarely as in I’ve seen like 3 this year) see him take. Cousins on the other hand I think could be a large impact player right away on the boards and offensively, but doesn’t have the same type of demeanor that Favors has which I think could be of greater benefit to a team.
For the Timberwolves, I’d probably go Cousins, but yeah… tough spot for the team to be in when those two are the guys I consider the clear best prospects available after Wall and Turner… and Favors basically means the entire front court needs to be rebuilt while Cousins needs a tweak mindset for it to work, yet still likely needs Al to be moved for it to make sense.
Exactly
Cousins is Al on steriods. Bigger, stronger, meaner. Al Jefferson plays a “soft” game. Same with Gasol and the other terrible examples of tweeners. Cousins ain’t getting pushed around on the interior.
Pau Gasol is a pretty great player.
I assume you didn’t mean his name is terrible, so much as you meant that you did not like it as a matter personal taste.
by princelyfrank on Mar 4, 2010 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
Taking SnP's advice
I just watched Jeff Taylor of Vanderbilt in a road win over Florida.
He was a complete and utter non-factor. He was in foul trouble in the first half, but did nothing all game. Ended up with 4 points, 0 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers. Went 2-6 from the field and didn’t get to the line.
Didn’t seem interested in getting the ball, and his teammates weren’t really looking to get him the ball either. Zero aggressiveness in any facet of the game. It was hard to notice him even though I watched the game with the intention of watching him.
Obviously an off-night for him. but it was awfully hard to see anything to like. It wasn’t one of those deals where a guy has a bad night, but you can see the talent. There wasn’t anything to see.
Mock Draft up to Charlotte Pick with Order from ESPN Draft Lottery
1. Sacramento: John Wall – Kentucky – PG
2. Indiana: Evan Turner – Ohio State – SG
3. New Jersey: Derrick Favors – Georgia Tech – PF
4. Minnesota: DeMarcus Cousins – Kentucky – C
5. Golden State: Wesley Johnson – Syracuse – SF
6. Utah: Cole Aldrich – Kansas – C
7. Detroit: Eddie Davis – North Carolina – PF
8. Washington: Greg Monroe – Georgetown – PF
9. Philadelphia: Donatas Motiejunas – Lithuania – PF
10. LA Clippers: Al-Farouq Aminu – Wake Forest – SF/PF
11. Charlotte: Xavier Henry – Kansas – SG
12. Memphis: Devin Ebanks – West Virginia – SF/PF
13. New Orleans: Hassan Whiteside – Marshall – C
14. Houston: Patrick Patterson – Kentucky – PF
15. Minnesota: Stanley Robinson – Connecticut – SF/PF
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Mar 2, 2010 11:01 PM CST reply actions
Minnesota's draft list (according to Ford)
1. Wall
2. Turner
3. Cousins
4. Johnson
5. Favors
Who else over Robinson:
James Anderson – Oklahoma State – SG
Damion James – Texas – SF/PF
Jan Vesely – Czech. Republic – PF
Chris Singleton – Florida State – SF/PF – if he comes out
Just remember, the CBA could also have dramatic circumstances for rookies. I read an agent saying something like more guys would come out because of the threat of the new CBA giving them less guaranteed years, could be guys that have huge potential, but also have the potential to be huge busts.
John Henson – North Carolina – PF
Alec Burks – Colorado – SG
Travis Leslie – Georgia – SG/SF – Freak Athlete – a block a game at 6’4" (http://www.nbadraft.net/players/travis-leslie http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=41702)
Elias Harris – Gonzaga – SF/PF
Gordon Hayward – Butler – SF
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Mar 2, 2010 11:32 PM CST reply actions
"less [sic] guaranteed years"
The current CBA only guarantees the first two years of rookie-scale contracts. Less guaranteed years (plural) would mean zero? Negative one guaranteed years?
my two cents
I’ve been reading this post for the last hour. Some good stuff…others…not so much. :-) I’d like to add:
1) Personally, I hope (and if I prayed, I’d pray) that Darko realized he has a real opportunity here. He doesn’t fill up the stat sheet, but the timberpups play better with him on the court. I’m anxious to see how the wolves play without Al the next two games – as I’m sure mr. Kahn and mr. Rambis are as well. He has some fan support here…
2) The reason I’m mentioning this is, I hope we can figure out how to get Aldrich. I like the kid. He’s a hometown kid, and he can play. He will give you every thing he has for how long you leave him out there. Him and Darko would be a GREAT look. It’s unrealistic we get him with our first pick, unless he grows 4 inches and learns how to jump out of the gym…
3) Is there a way we can swing a three team trade and send Al to Detroit? hmmm…. let me have a play on trade machine.
4) If this is the T-pups year to draft who they want, I agree with many of you that Turner has SCARY skills. Wall does as well, but he seems like he’s SO immature. I know he’s 18, but sometimes he looks like he isn’t even enjoying playing the game. Scary talented though. Who do we take if we fall to three (or make a run in the wins column and stay at our ‘spot’)? After Wall and Turner…tough call. I really like Wes Johnson – in college. He’s going to have a tough transition to the NBA I think. I really like Al Farouq-Aminu and Devin Ebanks. I’m not sure they are worth a high pick though. Tough!!
5) Rudy Gay. No way. There’s enough guys in this league who get paid a ridiculous amount of money to dunk and shoot and then stand around on defense. I’d prefer Deng…and that’s WITH all the injuries. He can defend and work the baselines all night. That’s cool with me. He’s athletic enough to run and make plays when Rubio gets. here.
So imagine…. Rubio comes over to find a re-invigorated Darko, a chizzled (and polished) K-Love, Deng and a Corey Brewer who has had 2 more summers to improve his jump shot…and his defense…and his decision making. Does anyone else think we’d lead the league in steals and runouts? seriously.
Bring Aldrich off the bench…and IMHO, Flynn can be the spark plug ala Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson…as long as we don’t pay him 10m a year (what was Dumars thinking?) after that…we still might get Turner!
In the end, I want two things (well, three i guess). Favre to come back and the Vikes to win it all, and the T-pups to make a killing this summer in the draft and get a sensible (yes, SENSIBLE) free agent…. hopefully it can be the wolves and thunder in the conference finals for a decade!
The impact of Darko could be tremendous
If he sticks around and just plays like an average center, it would move the re-build ahead by a year. Even if he only plays 25 MPG and makes about $5 mil, it locks down an important spot.
My hope is the 2nd pick and take Turner, then move the two extra 1st rounders to get in position to take Aldrich as the backup to Darko.
interesting
i completely agree re: Darko. Even if he’s an average center, he’ll be the best one to ever dress in a T-pups uni (Mikan never played for the T-pups). While I’m on that tangent, does anyone else think Minnesota should retire number 99? I thought I saw it in the rafters, but I think that was because of a 50 year celebration…or something like that. That would have been a while ago… I digress.
I understand what you mean, but as long as we are /hoping/ then I hope the T-pups win the lottery and they can take whomever they want. I like Turner.
Wouldn't it be just sick
if the Wolves got the #2 pick, and whoever gets #1 takes Turner. It could be great for the Wolves, but it would be hilarious to watch it play out for a couple years.
I know
right. That’s the thing that gets me. Everyone has NJ taking Wall if they get the first pick. They already have Harris. I’m not saying they wouldn’t trade Harris. Although, he has a hefty contract, and he is playing like crap this year.
hmmm… Maybe that’s a way we could unload Al. At that point, both teams will be under the salary cap, so all restrictions would be moot. Trade Al to NJ for their pick? They have Lopez and Al (I actually really like Lopez – he’s coming along nicely), and Yi could be at the three, with Harris and maybe they can sign a 2 (McGrady, Wade…I don’t really give a rats a$$…just making a point). Interesting.
I agree on your Rudy Gay take
Not worth it. Of course Deng is no bargain either! We need to see how the draft plays out. If we don’t get a top 2 pick, then it comes down to taking a big man like Favors, Cousins, or Aldrich. Wes Johnson and Al-Farouq Aminu are also in play, but neither scream out superstar. Tie goes to the big man in that case, which is why I’d put Favors/Cousins/Aldrich ahead of those other two.
In the event we go big with our first pick, then the question is do we trade Big Al for someone like Deng? Or do we hang onto Jefferson and go out and sign a guy like Josh Childress, who I think will come back from Europe an even better player than when he left. Josh is the type of guy we can sign for reasonable $ and get a good return on investment. He’s extremely efficient, defends well, and can get out and run. That still gives us the flexibility to trade Al later next season when hopefully he regains some of his lost value and we get a better feel for the progress being made by whichever big man we draft.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 3, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
I find it hard to believe
that long suffering fans of this team wouldn’t want a young, exciting, high flying, offensive minded wing because we would have to “overpay”. People need to realize that we will ALWAYS have to overpay to get free agents that are coveted by other teams. If the bidding is equal then we have no shot. It’s Minnesota. We have to be the highest bidder, and by a pretty good margin. That’s the reality of free agency and the t-wolves. Now if your a Laker or a Celtic, then ya, make a bid that’s competitive, and maybe even a little lower than the others. Players WANT to play for those teams.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
i understand your point
But my distaste for Rudy Gay isn’t driven by money. If he would play ANY defense at all I would be promoting a max deal for the guy. And I say this because I want the suffering to end – not continue with yet another terrible contract.
The reason we're "long suffering"
is that the team has overpayed for lots of players in the past. We’re aware of that.
I agree you sometimes have to overpay
but Rudy Gay isn’t one of the players I’d do that with. I just happen to think a player like Josh Childress brings a lot more bang for the buck. He won’t cost nearly as much as Rudy Gay, yet does everything just as well as Gay – and in some cases better – except volume scoring.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 3, 2010 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
We just have a different opinion on Rudy is all. He is at the stage of his career where he could really take it to the next level. Not the same kind of player, but I think a change of scenery for him could have a Chauncey Billups type of effect in that he could turn into an all-star. I guess I also see our biggest need as a volume scorer, as you put it. It’s almost a moot point anyway because frankly I don’t think we’ll get him. If we got Turner in the draft, Rudy would be just an absolutely perfect fit. Catching lob passes from Flynn, getting easy looks as a result of Turner’s penetration. He could score 25 ppg and shoot a good % if that were the scenario.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
Why would he all the sudden start caring about defense? He’s been in the league what, 4 years now? By that point you usually have a pretty good picture of who a player is, and things like dedication and drive don’t usually change. It’s one thing if he’s always tried hard on that end of the floor and just needed coaching, but with his tools he should be a lockdown defender by now. The fact that he isn’t tells me all I need to know.
I agree that he’d be exciting, but count me as one who’d rather pass than overpay him.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Noone
could guarantee that he would grow some new defensive kahunas, but if he signed a contract of the magnitude he’ll probably get in a new city, and will be crowned the number one option, maybe he’ll mature and step up to the plate defensively. But even if he doesn’t, if he’s an average defender who gives you 22 ppg every night, good hussle, some blocked shots, to me that is worth it. If there were a better option out there that gives you that type of player then yes, you consider it. But I would take Gay and overpay a little for him. Solves your wing problem for the next 5 years.
Temporary Bobcats Fan
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