Quick thoughts on Wall, Turner, and Cousins
by biggity2bit on Mar 13, 2010 1:57 PM CST
75 comments
Seeing as how Kentucky and Ohio State are both on TV right now, I thought I'd start this as sort of an open thread for people's comments/thoughts on these three players.
John Wall - man, the guy is an athlete. He has the same look to him when he moves as Randy Moss. Watching him you can see that he's got that 'it' factor and scoring ability. I can easily believe that in five years he could be averaging 28 ppg in the NBA. However, he also looks like a work in progress. The guy he reminds me of actually is Kevin Durant - super talented and no one really doubts that the scoring will be there, but will everything else develop (leadership, defense, etc.) to allow him to become the star he certainly could be (as in a top 5-7 player in the NBA in 3-5 years).
Evan Turner - Clearly doesn't have the sneaky, easy athleticism of Wall, but he's no slouch either. What stands out most about Turner, to me, is his competitiveness. When I tuned in Ohio was getting worked by Illinois in the midst of a 12-0 run and I was very interested to see what Turner would do - if he's the guy we think he might be, then this is his time to show it. Well, the results were, I think, incomplete. What I liked is how he was directing his guys on defense, pointing out where they should be and just keeping things moving. I also liked how, as Ohio started getting further and further down, Turner's competitiveness started coming through - his defense started picking up, his aggressiveness started picking up. It's probably just my imagination, but he started to remind me of how guys like Kobe, or KG, or other great players hate to get beat and are able to start ratcheting up their focus a notch.
What wasn't working is that he looked out of control a lot more than I was expecting, and Illinois' double teaming him seemed to put him off his game quite a bit. I think Turner could become an outstanding NBA player, but he'll get there because of his competitiveness and by having to relentlessly pursue improving all facets of his game, compared to Wall needing to find the desire to maximize his gifts. In other words, if Wall had Turner's attitude and mental game he would be damn near unstoppable. If Turner had Wall's physical/athletic gifts, I think you could safely project a top 50 NBA All-Time player.
DeMarcus Cousins - The thing that stands out the most for me about watching Kentucky, especially when compared to Ohio State, is how much talent they have. Turner is on the floor with a bunch of schmucks when compared to Kentucky, and Cousins is the guy who seems to be impacting this game more than Wall. Cousins has such great size, and good enough mobility, that I can see why people would get excited about him. If there wasn't the head case/attitude questions with him I think - depending on how he performs through out the tournament - Cousins would have a legitimate shot at playing himself into the second pick. A few years of work on his game and body in the NBA and he could be one of the top centers in the entire league. However I get really concerned about how he would handle adversity - it's easy to play defense when you're winning, but what about when Nene, Marc Gasol, Bogut, Haywood, Pau Gasol or Bynum, Pryz and Oden, or even Timmy D are exposing you, frustrating you, and otherwise providing a level of competition and resistance Cousins has never ever sniffed in his career, all while (most likely) being a team that would doing well to win 30% of its games. The Kentucky crowd is as good as any for all sports. Going from that to a losing team and being frustrated nightly by other bigs and a reduced role as a rookie in the NBA, well I just wonder about Cousins' newfound maturity (is it legit or not)?
So, to recap:
Wall - looks great, but not as dominant as I was expecting. Super athletic, sky's the limit on his ability but does he have the drive to get there or will he settle into a Joe Johnson/Jamal Crawford type career (a good, but not stellar, career)? Would love to see how he'd do without two other NBA talents next to him. Guy can pass though.
Turner - looks great in a different way. Ceiling only limited by his athleticism. Smart but limited by the lack of quality of his teammates.
Cousins - arguably the most dominant player on his team. Great size, dominating his competition - he's making everyone adjust to him (whether he can handle the passes to him or not). Big question, I think, is the attitude/maturity.
Anyone else watching these games? What are your thoughts? Who would like on the Wolves, and what other moves would you want to see the team make if they added your guy?
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Turner is not having a good game today
Lots of dribbling into turnovers, failure to finish in the paint. Still, he’s made several excellent passes.
…and now he’s coming on. A 3 pointer, then a steal and dunk. That’s the thing about great players—even when they aren’t having a good game, they find ways to turn it around.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 2:08 PM CST reply actions
Ya, I just saw that too
I was also just reading DX’s take on Turner and I suddenly get one of their ‘weaknesses’ about him – he plays under the rim. I keep waiting for him to get up there and throw down some dunks or drive hard to the basket. Instead he always seems to pull up for a little jumper or floater. It’s as if he’s more interested in being at the right spot at the right time than he is in just physically dominating. He’s also a remarkably better rebounder than I thought, even though I know he’s leading the Big Ten in rebounding.
I suppose, as you point out, it’s also worth noting that despite an off game Turner’s scored 17 so far to lead all scorers in the game (along with 9 boards, 4 assists, and 2 steals).
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Sometimes he passes when he ought to shoot it
And I agree that he could go stronger to the rack sometimes. He’ll figure it out.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Turner is just unreal....
….my only concern with him is the amount of lazy fouls he picks up. Every game I’ve watched he gets 1 or 2 cheap fouls but I’m sure it’s something that he can correct.
He plays a lot with his hands
I think he has a lot of confidence in his quickness; he gets a lot of steals that way. But I agree, he gets fouls that way. He’ll learn.
Ultimately, an amazing game by Turner. He just does everything, and made a ton of huge plays late.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Apparently, though I did not see it;
there was something of a problem on the bench with Cousins; Calipari booted him from the huddle? Didn’t get the full story.
In the meantime, Turner has taken over against Illinois.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 2:14 PM CST reply actions
Cousins went for 19 and 15
despite a terrible day shooting FTs.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
The werid thing about Cousins...
…is that every time I see him do some boneheaded thing in the game I can kind of sympathize with him. Today he got a tech after getting elbowed in the solar plexus. He didn’t charge the guy who did it but he had a few choice words. The guy does seem to have a short fuse though.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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Short fuse . . .
I would guess that’s item 1A on the scouting report of every Kentucky opponent (right after “Spread rumor about Calipari leaving to coach Duke to see if we can get him to quit before game time”). Since the talent gap in that conference is larger in the post than it is on the perimeter, for many teams their best hope is to rattle Cousins out of his game and into a “T” or two.
He’ll obviously go up against better competition in the pros, but I would think he won’t draw so much attention in the paint.
It's absurd how much attention he draws...
…and how much bigger and stronger he is than anyone else. It really is like watching Shaq in college . He doesn’t have the freakish athleticism that Shaq had, but the size and strength is there. I really hope the Wolves are putting in overtime scouting this guy.
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My concern is he relies a lot on his size
Not a terribly skilled player. Take away that size advantage, even against a blue collar guy like and Erick Dampier, and I think he gets into a lot of trouble.
Same reservations about Cole Aldrich. We’ll have to see. I’m intrigued by them both, but if I were to make a decision on it right now, I’d prefer an athlete like Favors or Davis, or a super skilled big like Greg Monroe.
This just isn't true
Cousins has a lot of skill for a young big. Really good footwork and hands. His game isn’t just overpowering people. He has excellent post moves.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
Plus evan in the NBA
Cousins is going to be a big guy. He’s just a load in the paint, my concerns are more on the defensive end.
by Bad News Wolves on Mar 13, 2010 10:03 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not saying he isn't skilled
Just that a lot of what he does is because he’s bigger. A lot of his hype is how dominant he is, which is largely a physical aspect. But obviously that doesn’t always translate to the pros….will he be able to control the paint in the NBA like he does in college? I’m not convinced…his game seems more Chris Wilcox than Dwight Howard.
I'd like to seal the above post in a time capsule
“Cousins game seems more Chris Wilcox than Dwight Howard” – Oceanary
lets revisit this in 4 years, okay?
I think you make a valid point about size being a key part of his dominance in college, but I believe you’re going too far in underprojecting him in the pros.
The odds are with Oceanary though
Most players are more Chris Wilcox than they are Dwight Howard…
I'm just saying that I don't think Cousins is as dominant as people think he is
Or that he’ll be as dominant as a pro. Chris Wilcox was a 12-7 player for the Terps…he led Maryland to a title that year and was one of the most physically dominant players in college basketball…and that pushed his stock way up. 4 years later? He’s averaging like, 6 points coming off the bench for the Clippers.
Another example…from that same year in fact…is Drew Gooden. 20-11-2 and again, physically dominant in college, and he was drafted 4th overall. And obviously he’s not at all physically dominant as a pro.
I think Cousins is a good player, but would I take him over Favors or Davis? No. Maturity issues aside….and that’s a huge red flag all in itself…I’m just not convinced he has the upside to be a special player, and if you’re talking about a top 5 pick, you should really be talking about players that can be special. And I know other people see more in him. I’m just saying I don’t.
I have the same problem with Al-Farouq Aminu and Wes Johnson. Everyone seems to love these guys, but I’m not impressed by either of them.
And since we're on the 02 draft...
…ironically the most physically dominant big man in that draft was the one taken after all the college studs….Amare Stoudemire, who resembles Favors more than anyone.
Also, I should point out that, at the start of the year, everyone was talking about how physically “dominant” Aldrich is, which again, is something I never saw, and I think a lot more people aren’t seeing now as well as we’ve gotten a closer look at him. Cole isn’t so much dominant as just big.
I completely agree on Wes Johnson
but we disagree on Cousins. It’ll be fun to see how he turns out.
Mplx – if you’re saying that on the Wilcox-Howard spectrum most players are closer to Wilcox, that is certainly true. But I believe Oceanary was implying he will be Wlicoxian, which is different.
I think Cousins will definitely not be coming off the bench for a team like the Clippers averaging a 4 and 3 in his 4th year in the NBA.
I’ll wager 15 and 8 and starting somewhere…but the possibility of much better.
Wilcox is a bad example.. He got drafted high because he was athletic and somewhat productive in college. He’s still 6’9 and not all that skilled, whereas Cousins is big, powerful, skilled and ridiculously productive (like, off the charts). Even if he gets nowhere near his potential he’s going to be more useful than a 6’9 pogo stick with no refined skills (unless you count beating up on the Wolves as a skill).
Not that I’m a huge fan of the guy, in general or for the Wolves, but we could do worse. His floor is higher than Wilcox.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
More natural comparison might be Webber at MI
Webber, too, was a hint of a head case / BBIQ question mark (time out, anyone?) in college. His technique wasn’t all there in terms of footwork and so on, where he was pretty inconsistent, but at the NCAA level he could be a dominant defender based on his brute strength.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
we're probably going to get one of those three
and Charlottes pick is beginning to look more probable is there any chance we will keep 3 rookies next year?
I think you can count on a trade of some sort.
Likely with the Charlotte pick.
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
(For the sake of salary space, too)
It isn’t just trying to develop three kids, either. Having cap slots for the three rookies starts to eat into your maneuvering room.
I agree, dealing the Charlotte pick in some way seems quite possible.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Turner ties the game at the end of regulation
then scores 7 of his team’s 9 in the first OT, including the game tier late to send it to a 2nd OT.
31/10/6 with 3 steals and 9 turnovers. He’s completely dominated the last 10 minutes of this game.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 2:57 PM CST reply actions
What a great game!
I’m not a huge college ball fan because of the disorganized nature and the fact that they have as much trouble as they do beating a full court press, but that was a GREAT game.
The last two minutes should give credence to my pitch for David Lighty in the second round or as an undrafted FA. He really is a natural leader despite his talents… though he is still a good defender.
Turner getting all those fouls seemed cheap only on the part of the refs though. A few of those were questionable at best. He did get away with a hook when he already had 4 fouls (would have almost certainly lost Ohio the game if he had gotten called for that). But overall I thought he got a lot of calls that could have been and should have been no calls (especially for a star! :-p).
During the first half I was wondering how he got to be the consensus first/second pick. He wasn’t taking over and he was settling for jump shots (he’d fit perfectly with us). When he started going to the rim, he started looking like a star. I’ll say it again, VERY Paul Pierce-esque. Pierce in the last few years hasn’t been the type of guy to posterize someone, but he still gets it done and get’s contact and maintains great control. This is what Turner was doing in the second half and the overtimes. Then he seemed like a consensus #1 pick (John who?). Seemed to get a lot of body contact (that stars get the calls for in the NBA) and kept the ball away from the blockers (and when he was in the lane without a dribble a couple times he drew contact… but I couldn’t really tell if those were good calls).
As for McCamey in that game, he has the swagger of McCants (Thinks he’s a star, has the talent for it, but not the brains or the performance to back it up). Don’t like that. Walked into Lighty (an ex teammate? Anyone else hear them say that?) AND Turner on the same inbounds pass. Really didn’t make good decisions and took bad shots. He Flynned overdribbled way too much and couldn’t do anything when pressured. He should have had no problem beating that press or making a good pass to someone who could. After one game of seeing him, I am not a fan.
McCamey has looked better
He can really shoot it, and is a very good passer. Strong player. I don’t know if he’s quite good enough for the NBA, but he could be a backup at both guard spots someday.
Or he’ll have a career in Europe.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah he's been alot better lately...
….but he looked pretty shaky in the 2 OT’s. I mean he seems like the guy who should be demanding the ball in big situations but I would forget he was even on the floor. Definitely don’t like that.
What's amazing..
….is that McCamey and Turner were on the same high school team.
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What's even more amazing
is that they were at the same school (and had the same coach) as that dbag from Hoop Dreams.
No, wait, what's even more amazing than that
is that on Mark Titus’ (of Club Trill fame) AAU team, the starting five are all in the NBA right now, including: MIke Conley, Greg Oden, and Daequan Cook.
I saw another AAU team...
…with Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon in the backcourt. Of course there’s always Love and Brandon Jennings.
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Glad someone else remembers
There was a poll on some site the other day about the best Hoop movie. Choices included Hoop Dreams (which obviously was the real winner in heaven) and Hoosiers.
The Web voters picked “Spacejam.”
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Gophers
I wish the Wolves could play defense like the Gophers. That would be awesome.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
length and athleticism have their privileges
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the big white dude...
…is the guy that impresses me. you can tell he’s still growing into his body and that by the time he’s going to be a senior, he’ll be trouble. one thing i always look for with young bigs is how under control they are…whether or not they rush things or simply take their time. iverson takes his time and seems to understand that with his size, he doesn’t need to rush anything.
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Colton Iverson
He’s a talent. Kind of struggling to find his game this year, but he’s going to be good. He’s got more upside than Pryzbilla or Humphries, that’s for sure.
yeah
he’s definitely a legit center. I have often wondered what an Iverson/Sampson hybrid would look like. Kind of scary really. Strong, agile, shot blocking, decent rebound and offensively diverse…wow…if only.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Mar 13, 2010 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
I've been enjoying them the last two years
And fortunately they aren’t good enough to go pro early so we’ll get to see them play together as seniors. That may be a very special year.
I can see Colton Iverson
developing into a solid blue collar type pro center. He’s tough, plays hard, and has some surprisingly adept post moves when they go to him.
If Sampson showed a little more spirit and a lot more toughness
I think he could be a solid pro. He has an incredibly soft shot for a big guy. At the start of this season I worried that he was showing enough he might think he could be a mid to late 1st rounder based on potential, but not now. Even if he plays better next season, the CBA and lockout potential will probably keep him from going pro.
People seem really down on Iverson...
… but I see him as the better player now and in the future. He’ll never have the soft jumper that Sampson has, but I’d take Iverson over Sampson for all the blue collar things he’s willing to do. I agree with SnP that Iverson appears to be growing into his body and looks like he has a lot of room for improvement. So does Sampson, of course, but I don’t think people would be as happy with Sampson if we didn’t have Iverson because Sampson’s softness would drive everyone crazy. If Ralph develops a sense of aggression, or even just gets significantly stronger, he should be a pretty good player. Both should stay all four years—with all due respect to Oceanary, I think Ralph would be crazy even to consider going pro.
Hope I can say this in a way that makes sense
Each of these guys has dominated the other in the last two years. Iverson was the overall guy last year, Sampson was the guy this season. I’ve got season tickets and saw it personally, a year ago it was Iverson’s job and something happened in between. What Iverson did this week has been missing most of the season…why, I don’t know and have no inside speculation.
In hindsight, I wish Sampson would have redshirted last season and Iverson this season. These two both playing as 5th year seniors would have been incredible. Hopefully one can be dependable and dominant for a year or two. Frankly, they should both be, but each seem to have totally different issues.
Nice summaries biggity
Only thing I would disagree with is the small mention of questioning Wall’s drive, which I wouldn’t even have brought up.
There’s a handful of negatives on all three players, but honestly, I could deal with them as a fan since they are immensely talented.
On another note
Derrick Favors is starting to assert himself late in the season.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 4:21 PM CST reply actions
It'll be interesting to see how GT fares in the tournament
Favors and Lawal are as good a frontcourt duo as you’ll find in college ball this year, but they seriously lack guard play. That’s a killer in the tournament.
To be honest, I'm not very impressed with Patterson
Which is weird, because statistically he’s through the roof, but I dunno….I get the same feeling watching him that I do watching Josh Howard or Luol Deng or Al Thornton. Pretty numbers, but it feels like nothing tangible comes out of what he does.
One of these things is not like the others....
Al Thornton does not belong in the same sentence with Howard or Deng, in terms of what their numbers describe when they’re playing their ideal games. Not even close.
Thornton is a classic “volume scorer” who doesn’t score efficiently and doesn’t do anything else. Deng and Howard are not like that at all.
If anything Thornton is a counterexample to the other two names you mention.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Anything that gets another PF type high in the draft
means more talent down at Charlotte’s pick to choose from. We’re pro that.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Gophers
putting the hurt on the BMs! Not watching the game, but I’m hoping that a 26 point halftime lead could only be blown by U of M football team, not a Tubby team.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
Great idea for the thread by the way
Since there is little activity anywhere else, might as well keep some interest going in other games.
Good thing the Gophers are great defenders
cuz their offense seems average at best in this game. No matter what the scoreboard says. Lots of players trying to force it and settling for bad shots.
I've been super impressed with Greg Monroe
Terrific feel for the game.
But…I see the problem, too. He has real trouble finishing inside in traffic because he just lacks lift. He can’t elevate enough to get over or through the defense. That’s going to limit him, I suspect.
He does a ton of other things well, though.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 9:40 PM CST reply actions
I can't decide
If I like Monroe or don’t like him. At times he looks like he could be a very special player and a great fit in the triangle (anyone see his perfect pass to the cutting player in the first half, he looked like a point guard) but at other times he looks like he doesn’t want to be out on the court and he just sits outside on the perimeter. He has a lot of skills but I’m worried about his effort.
by Bad News Wolves on Mar 13, 2010 10:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
His fit here would be a big question,
but I enjoy the kid’s gane and want to see him do well.
Another big without springs in his step, though, seems like two too many for the Wolves. Barring a trade I have trouble seeing it even when he’s got the court vision and smarts.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Anyone else think
De’sean Butler would be a great pick in the second round?
by Bad News Wolves on Mar 13, 2010 10:12 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Eh
Sure, in the 2nd round. But he isn’t going to be able to play in the NBA, I don’t think. Just isn’t enough of an athlete. His upside is probably Damien Wilkins. Upside.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 13, 2010 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Just throwing ideas off the wall here...
…but when the season ends (officially) there should totally be a thread on certain groupings of prospects for people to get their general thoughts down about them. I don’t know if this already goes on, since I just started following this site recently, but yeah – it seems like it would make a whole lot of sense to get thoughts down and get opinions centered in one area.
I don’t know if people want to make this site that draft-centric, however.
It's a good idea
but I think we will have to wait until closer to the workout times otherwise we will have pretty much said everything that can be said about everybody that something can be said about.
Great idea Casper
Let’s do it.
Right now, especially if we get the Charlotte pick, this site should be heavily draft-centric. :)
Another second rounder?
Any thoughts on John Scheyer of Duke. I have watched Duke, in bits and pieces, for several games this year. Singler always seemed overrated and Scheyer always seemed like the epitome of a great college player. Just a smart, smart guard. Does someone who knows how to play the game have an NBA future at all?
Does someone who knows how to play the game have an NBA future at all?
Not without hype
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Mar 14, 2010 7:41 PM CDT reply actions
Woops
block quote fail lol
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Mar 14, 2010 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
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