Apastration
by Stop-n-Pop on Mar 17, 2010 4:33 AM CDT
161 comments
Surely there has to be a word that describes what is going on with the Wolves right now. It's somewhere in between boredom and apathy, frustration and anger, regret and hope, and all sorts of other polar and not-so-polar dichotomies.
After the worst stampling (another combo word deserving of this team) of the year I can't quite find the right word to describe how I feel about this club right now. On one hand we were told from the get-go that this was going to be a rebuilding year. The team's front office has been very open about this fact and they have engaged in what they call an "aggressive fan development program" to win back the casual viewing sports public in this town.
On the other hand, there are those of us who have been following the team for a long, long time; those of us who have been season ticket holders and jersey/hat/whatever buyers since the Bill Musselman days, or even since KG was doing his pre-anything-is-possible routine to the tune of a Western Conference Final. What rebuilding iteration is this group of fans currently having to endure? 3.0? 4.6? Who knows?
What we do sort of know, and can place our fingers on, is that this year's over-matched squad apparently has begun an early off-season development plan of their own; maybe the good weather has given them a pre-spring golf jones and they simply cannot wait to hit the links.
For all of the good things we have said about Kevin Love over his time with the franchise, it appears that he has checked out for the season and there is no good way of dressing this up. For all of the nice things we really would like to say about the point guard prospects of Jonny Flynn (and we really would; after all, he's a lotto pick), he's showing very little signs of being the player David Kahn said he would be.
It's that last part of the Flynn take that is really starting to take hold with the group of fans who don't need to be reeled in with 1/2 price lower-bowl season ticket offers. There is a striking disconnect between what we were told would be and what is. For each and every fan development season ticket purchase, there's a guy or gal paying close to full price for this year's action and it's pretty hard to dress up any feeling of disappointment that I'm sure they all feel about that fact.
One of the things that I think David Kahn gets a fairly large pass on is the large gap between what could have been this year's status quo and this year's reality. Let's imagine for a moment that the Washington deal never happened and that Kahn used the 6th pick in the draft on a young scoring point guard who really did have a long college record of doing all the things he said his pick was going to do. Let's imagine a starting lineup of Stephen Curry, Mike Miller, Ryan Gomes, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson with Corey Brewer and Randy Foye coming off the bench. Would it have been that hard to move smaller deals like Sebastian Telfair and Craig Smith to open up additional 2010 cap space? Would the expiring deals of Miller, Foye, and Brian Cardinal have provided a significant amount of usable cap space above and beyond what the team will use during this off-season? Just how much more is all of Kahn's wheeling-and-dealing really worth beyond two main assets: Ricky Rubio and the security of this year's top draft choice?
Here's the kicker: If this year has shown us anything, it is that Kahn is all-in on Rubio, and, to a lesser extent, the team's top choice in the 2010 draft. Go back and look at what Kevin McHale was attempting to do with this roster before Kahn came in. They were headed in the right direction in terms of cap space and roster flexibility. How much more usable space has Kahn really opened up? Will it be used? Can it be used? Is $14-18 mil over the cap worth much more to the Wolves than $6-8? If it is, then the team will have an additional bullet point to put in its fan development talking points cache. If not, then this season was all about waiting for Rubio and securing the team's #1 pick (which, it should be noted, is a fairly worthy cause in the long run) from the awful Clips/Jaric trade.
Wrapping this thing up, I'm not writing this post in order to complain about what could have been. I suppose there is a little bit of that in there (especially with the Curry pick) ; rather, it's more of a frustration post about yet another wasted season for those of us who have been watching this team for a long, long time. Yes, I'm excited about Ricky Rubio. Yes, I'm very glad and excited that the Wolves will be near the top of the draft. Of course it is nice to have as much cap space as possible. I'm also kind of bummed that the team is virtually unwatchable right now and that I have to wonder, yet again, if this team's front office can truly maximize its considerable assets.
Die-hard Wolves fans have been on the wrong side of too-close chances for the better part of 5 years now. They've been lucky to find themselves in position to draft quality players. They've been astute enough to maneuver their roster in a way that will provide cap space and flexibility. Can they follow through or will we get yet another Blueprint 2.0 Fan Development ticket pitch? At some point the vision of the marketing department has to match up with the viewpoint of Section 136. At some point I hope that game wraps can be only about the on-court action and less about Korean recipes and the broad direction of the franchise.
Until later.
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I miss the KG, Cassell, Hoidberg, Szczerbiak, Kandi-man,… oh and Latrell “I have to feed my family” Sprewell days. God we had it good back then… i cant even remember whats its like to feel May basketball anymore.
Dang why ya gott remind me.
I remember watchin those playoff games on the porch cause it was so nice and warm. Seeing KG finally win his first playoff series was great. What a year that was. Sigh………
by waldo11teen on Mar 17, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hard to disagree
It’s hard to look at a team like Milwaukee this year relative to the Wolves. Going into this season, I would have taken Jefferson, Love, Hollins over their bigs hands down. Bogut has gone on to improve a lot. They made a cheap signing on Warrick who was effective for them. He wouldn’t have added to our cap going forward. They picked after us in the lotto and got a better PG prospect, even though Jennings has slipped quite a bit from his hot start. Redd has given them nothing, but they’ve still managed more production from their wings headed by Delfino and now Salmons on a nice trade. Ridnour provides more than Sessions does in their bench roles.
How much of this is system? Why is Sessions so ineffective and underutilzed here whereas Jennings/Ridnour seem so much better in their system?
I don’t regret the Miller/Foye deal at all. The Flynn pick continues to be questionable.
How would our team look this year with a guy like Skiles at coach and Curry, Lawson, Collison at PG?
Rambis has a good reputation, but on top of our obvious lack of talent, we’re trying to put square pegs into round holes with this offense. And we’re not playing the defense that Rambis was lauded for with the Lakers.
Two hard teams to compare though...
….since the scenarios are completely different. The Bucks are playing in the East and have a coach and GM who needed to start proving something. We had zero chance of even sneaking into the playoffs in the West and gave our head coach a 4 year promise which allowed him to throw out whatever lineups he wanted in the name of “player development”.
It would’ve been nice to see the type of development the Bucks are having but with Kahn’s 16 month plan there was no way it was going to happen. Now if we get picks 1 or 2 then it was all worth it…. if we get a pick from 3-5 then it’ll be a complete disaster for Kahn/Rambis.
Definitely agree about your last point on Rambis. I just can’t watch this team play defense anymore. At the very least, I was expecting a noticeable improvement in defense with him at the helm, instead I get 152 points of layup lines and easy 3’s.
Milwaukee
also had the advantage of having a legit rim protector and interior defender in Bogut. Our lack of such a presence isn’t the reason why we’re not doing well – talent and system misfit are the main reasons – but it seems as though Milwaukee has always had that attitude of Bogut’s (defensively) to go back to when times get tough. They could always play D no matter what, and everyone kind of fed and regrouped off that. We don’t have that on our squad. The only thing we have to regroup off of is Al Jeff on the low block. That to me is one of the fatal flaws of this team.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Having a #1 pick in your history generally helps the rebuild.. If we landed the #1 this year, I think we’d quickly forget about these years in the gutter.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Bogut
Every year, the Bogut draft choice seems like less of a mistake. Granted, most people (myself included) would rather start a team with Chris Paul or Deron Williams, but Bogut is a much-rarer commodity than a great point guard, and that’s becoming increasingly evident with the influx of talented young PG’s, with little or no talented 7-footers that can stay healthy.
I am looking forward to the likely Boston-Milwaukee matchup in Round 1. Between Garnett-Bogut and Rondo-Jennings, I expect some trash talk and a competitive series.
With all the draft talk
I’ve been perusing DX quite a bit recently, and I am really amazed at cyclical height + talent is. In this year’s draft there are very few guys over 6’-10" with solid starter level skills. Almost all of them have question marks and a Stewie factor associated with them (the Stewie factor meaning that they have size that will keep them in the NBA but also a love affair with just one skill that will continually threaten them with not being in the NBA because they can’t/won’t do anything else). Makes me want to keep Darko all the more now.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Legit 7 footers are so rare nowadays....
…. it’s why Memphis took Thabeet over Evans. However, i just don’t see Darko staying unless we overpay him or we show some sort of pulse over the last month. Giving up 152 points probably doesn’t help.
Draft
I really think if we do not get a top 2 pick this year and secure either Wall or better yet Turner, this year will have been a complete waste of time. I would love to see Turner taken this year, Rubio and Charlotte pick traded for Wall if possible and either Jefferson or Love traded for a defensive and talented young center…who that is, I have no clue.
by nocturnalstinger on Mar 17, 2010 5:46 AM CDT reply actions
100 percent agree
This season has sucked. Only a Turner or Wall pick up begins to make it worth it. And, yes, I would trade Rubio and the Charlotte pick if it meant getting the other. If you get these two, you could try to trade Jonny, too. And then trade Jefferson if we thought we could someone athletic in the middle to help on D, particularly. This the dream scenario, of course, Turner/Wall/Athletic Big. We all know the Wolves history — they’ll draft 3rd and not get either Turner or Wall.
Flynn, Love, and maybe the whole team has given up. I know they are getting paid to be professionals but the losing has to sap you. It has me. I see no point in watching anymore. OK, Flynn has 8-1 Assist-to-Turnover on the stat sheet, team has only 13 turnovers, and we still get shelled.
Rambis has to be on the hot seat next year. His system better show significant improvement in year 2.
by ChicagoViking on Mar 17, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
It would be difficult for a Wolves fan to name one player or coach who is performing better than last year. The only possible exception is Brewer, whose bar was very low. We have had to endure watching teams like Memphis, Milwaukee and OKC move past us in improvement in a major way. All the vitriol aimed at McHale in the past couple of years has been misplaced. While far from effective, I think recent history shows that Kahn-Rambis & crew really have no better master plan than he did. There is a considerable element of luck involved in NBA success, which we don’t have, but we are also missing whatever other elements are necessary, too.
Too be fair
A lot of people were expecting OKC to blow up last year, and they didn’t. They and Memphis have had a lot of talent for 2-3 years now and never won. I don’t think anyone is surprised by OKC’s success this year. Memphis, ya, probably a bit surprised, but both of those teams were more talented than us last year. Milwaukee’s competing hard, that’s for sure. I wonder how many more wins we’d have if we played in the Eastern Conference, though. We have four freakin’ playoff teams in our own division! Of the top 12 teams, 4 are Eastern Conference teams, and 4 our teams in our division.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Other than Flynn over Curry, it’s minor things that I fault Kahn for in terms of personnel. Rambis is a different story.
I think the disgust with McHale is well deserved with this season even more evidence to support it. He left the cupboard so bare in terms of talent. I don’t think any anger with McHale was misplaced. The guy was lazy as a GM. That’s inexcusable. Kahn might not be any better in terms of talent evaluation, but he isn’t lazy.
I agree with the luck, but giving yourself as many chances to “get lucky” should be a top priority and I see Kahn as having done/doing that. He’s got to get lucky this year though.
by Blond Ricky on Mar 17, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the master plan makes sense
it’s the execution that is lacking. I’m all for creating an uptempo, passing type of offense. But the team is actually getting worse as the year goes on. That’s on Rambis, as he and his coaching staff should have at least shown that they could improve the squad throughout the course of the season.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 17, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
All the disgust at McHale was deserved
Sorry, but nothing Kahn has done or will ever do will compare to the Joe Smith deal. Not to mention Roy-for-Foye.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 17, 2010 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Drafting KG and putting the right vets around him (i.e. Sam Mitchell, Terry Porter, etc.) to develop was a success. Not saying it was wrong to move him on necessarily, but Kahn hasn’t achieved anything yet. 1>0.
Wasn't really my point
The OP saying that McHale doesn’t deserve blame because this season hasn’t gone well is ludicrous.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 18, 2010 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Understood
and of course McHale & Co brought the team to where it was this offseason. The OP compared the two though in saying Kahn had yet to prove any better.
The sickening thought is going through this nonsense
and then having pick 5.
Most of us had this team winning 20-25 games. They are 10 short.
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
Pick 5
You just know that’s going to happen right?
Visit my D2 Baseball Blog - Northern Sun Baseball
I Don't Know About That
But, what I do know is that the pick that we end up giving the Clips will hit a pingpong ball.
Pining for a Troy Hudson/Marko Jaric backcourt.
We’ve got 2 years to get out of the lottery. You can’t know what will happen.
We land Turner and he’s a Roy type player and this team looks DRASTICALLY different.
by Blond Ricky on Mar 17, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
You aren't SG from Twolvesblog by any chance are you?
If so, wondering whether you’ll be bringing your top quality news links to this site?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Mar 17, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm guessing this is SBG from stickandballguy.com
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Mar 17, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
good points but...
I was really looking forward to the recipe. After the third quarter (our best defensive effort, making them earn their 35) I made sure my schedule was clear for the grocery store.
Testify, Brother
A well written post, an intelligent expression of frustration.
What sticks out to me is the Flynn pick. The story is not written on his career yet by any means, but it’s becoming harder and harder to dress up his performance in the year of the rookie point guard.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 17, 2010 8:09 AM CDT reply actions
Hindsight is 20-20, but...
Rubio #5, Curry #6, and keep Lawson. Hmmm… That kind of PG situation seems a long ways better today. But, if we turn this season into Wall/Rubio, maybe all is forgiven.
by ChicagoViking on Mar 17, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree about the pick
Flynn really is in a tough spot b/c obviously Curry and Lawson seem to get it and should continue to play at an increasingly high level and Jennings could find his shot again, Roddy looks very promising, etc,etc. Point being, as the 3rd PG taken (with Kahn having his choice of the rest), it’ll be hard not to see other players’ success as a failure by Jonny. Sort of a Roy/Foye thing.
I just hope that Kahn has obviously learned his lesson with taking “great character” guys who are a PR department’s dream over the less marketable guys who can flat out play. He really had so many options at that point and Jonny just won him over. Can you imagine if he just wanted to “play it safe” and keep Lawson (the least risky PG in last years draft IMO), he could’ve said to Indy or Detroit, “you guys desperately need a young PG, and this is the year of the PG. You can have your choice of the remaining field for your pick next year.”
Is no one going to talk about
how Flynn would be doing much better in Denver’s system? Or in Golden State’s? I mean, let’s face the facts here – by just about any efficiency measure the Timberwolves’ version of the triangle has absolutely killed then numbers of one of the most efficient and effective young PGs out there in Ramon Sessions. I get that idea that Jonny may have been the wrong pick, but the kid’s still a talented player who, if allowed to play like Collison does, would put up big numbers.
I would love to read a broader post examining the relationship ‘between the lines’ between Kahn and Rambis. Kahn wanted the Showtime Lakers, Rambis gave him the triangle. Kahn talked about Jonny as a dynamic point and leader, Rambis won’t let him do what he’s naturally good at and forces him to play in a manner completely foreign to him. I sometimes get the sense that Kahn’s vision for the team differs from Rambis’ version, thus we have a lot of disjointed fits in terms of players and system and PT.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
No, because that argument is becoming less tenable by the week
As Curry is doing what he’s doing. It’s not a matter of raw counting numbers; Curry has an outstanding NBA skill, and still does everything else as well or better than Flynn.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 17, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
My point is
Curry is in a position to show those skills, Jonny is not. I guess we can quibble about that, and I haven’t seen many GS games this year so I don’t actually know, but my guess is that Jonny gets no where near the green light to do what he does as Curry does. Here’s another way to put it – is Sessions a better PG than Curry? (Not a better shooter, but a better passer and facilitator)? If so, or even if they’re equal, then don’t you think system comes into play at all? I guess ultimately I’m not convinced as to what level Flynn’s NBA skills are because I think our system just kills PGs – and Sessions numbers are the proof (despite us all seeing that he’s a positive influence out there, his numbers are quite similar to Flynn’s per 36).
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
I don't disagree about Jonny being talented...
…. and system being a big factor (especially in Collison’s case, I mean he’s learning from Chris Frickin’ Paul) but it won’t cloud the opinions of Flynn’s play b/c it’s such an unknown thing. What is known is that Ty Lawson is in Denver doing awesome, Curry is a beast, and Collison/Beaubois should’ve gotten a longer look. Fans and columnists will see all of these other PG’s doing awesome and deem Jonny a mistake, which might be unfair to Jonny but it’s the way these things work.
Ya
until Jonny gets traded or leaves as a FA and blows up elsewhere. He’ll be like Chauncey in his career arc (not comparing talents, just career storyline).
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
Could be...
Chauncey is a very, very rare exception though. The more likely comparison would be to another ex-TWolf, Randy Foye.
And both are about
five inches taller than Flynn.
But with less-firm handshakes, from what I understand.
Thanks for the hyperbole
Try 2 or 3.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 17, 2010 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought
you didn’t like sources printed by the league :-p
When they support
my position, they are virtually handed down from God himself.
When they don’t support my position, they are cheap rubbish—unresearched typos at best, diabolical lies at the worst.
I hear God
is more of a seeing is believing type.
I think Buddha is more into the numbers and figures. So it’s possible that they were handed from Buddha himself? Unless you can find some first-hand documents that prove God is providing these?
This is a great point
Al and Jonny each can bring something to the table. With Al, it’s low block scoring. Jonny can get past his defender off the dribble (it’s messy, but will clean up with time).
The problem is that neither of their skills sets are maximized by Rambis’s motion offense. It seems like the franchise is picking the offense over the players despite what they can bring to the table. That’s fine, but they need to take the next logical step and move players who don’t fit for players who do.
It's been pointed out
that the triangle offense might just be a teaching tool this year, forcing Flynn and Jefferson to work on their weaknesses, and that it will recede in importance as the team takes shape over the next year or two. There’s no way to know if this is true, but an optimist could look at this and the mismatched lineups (that Rambis must know about) as a sneaky way of tanking while getting a good amount of evaluation and player development accomplished.
I hope not
as I would consider it a tactical error in dealing with your key players (assuming they consider them to be key players). That’s the type of stuff that should be worked on in practice and camp v. in live games throughout an 82-game season.
That's what kills though...
I do think that Curry would have been the better basketball pick AND the more marketable pick. He always had more juice than Flynn coming into the draft.
I’ve been pro-Flynn but this month has been…very hard. I think Johny can be a decent change of pace guy for when Rubio comes.
Also I think Ellington was a good pick. Looking forward to his continued development next year. A very modest silver lining but I’m doing what I can now.
So on Canis Hoopus night, I think we should really try to get some serious answers regarding the analysis in this post from Kahn. Or talk bulgogi.
by Rasho Revolution on Mar 17, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not going to be able to come to Hoopus Night
So for those that do, PLEASE don’t come back saying “Oh, we feel so much better. Kahn has a great plan, everything will work out. But we can’t tell you anything.”
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Mar 17, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Tanking season is underway...
I noticed that Indiana upset Charlotte, last night. I did not see the game, so I can’t say if this actually happened or how serious it was, but Danny Granger reportedly hurt his “upper cheek” in the final minutes, and was immediately declared out for the next game, and maybe beyond that.
Note that the win put Indiana behind Washington in the lottery standings, and puts them dangerously close to falling behind four more teams.
Something tells me that Granger will probably play it safe with that sore cheek, and maybe Troy Murphy will come down with mono before too long, as well.
It’s an ugly stretch of the year and always is. Just have to wait for the playoffs to start.
Good summary of the game and season
and the previous comments highlight why the latest downward trend is so disheartening.
1. I’m clinging to the belief that Just A Fan’s insight (Kahn was surprised how disinterested free agents were in coming to Minnesota) has put the team all-in on drafting a future All Star as the only way to improve the team. Ergo ipso facto—the thing this team wanted even less than losses and financial losses was “wins.”
2. If #1 is true, then it’s more reason Al should have been traded for more prospects and picks earlier in the season—better to win 20 games with a bunch of lowly-paid high potential 20-year olds, than middle of the road players in the middle of their careers. If Jefferson was dangled, I’m guessing his recovery hurt whatever trade value he had.
3. Alleged former Wolves GM candidate Tom Penn has been fired by the Trailblazers. The columnist in The Oregonian says Penn leveraged a “phantom” offer from the Wolves to get a bump up from the Blazers.
4. Re: Rubio—the Spurs are apparently having a hard time convincing Tiago Splitter to come over to the U.S., as even though the team can now offer more than a rookie contract, he’s weighing the threat of a 2011 NBA lockout versus a guaranteed contract (and season) in Europe. This is not good news.
5. Some people have mentioned trading Love instead of Al Jeff in the offseason. This would completely fly in the face of everything this team has done since KG has left—which is, when confronted with a decision, the cheaper option is always the best option. The only way I think Al Jeff stays and KLove goes is if there is absolutely no interest in Al’s worth as a player, when weighed against the cost of his contract.
5. If there is anything positive to this season, assuming that Kahn/Rambis aren’t in complete tank mode and they and the players really are this bad, it’s that there is no reason to think that Kahn and Rambis can assemble a roster and coach it to wins without just overspending Glen’s money. That doesn’t mean they WILL spend the money, it just means that it may be their only option.
WOLVES FEVER!!! RUN WITH IT AND THEM!!!
Any concern
about Love mentally checking out already? Say what you will about Al, but it occurred to me the other day that the guy has never complained about being here, has always done his thing (even if that includes suspect defense), has never pouted (near as I can tell), and has made strides to become a better player, a better teammate, and a better leader on (and recently off) the court. Love, while often being very productive on the court, sounds a bit like a diva sometimes. Granted Al never had to come off the bench, but Love strikes me as feeling just a little entitled on a semi-regular basis, and he kind of pouts a bit if he doesn’t get his way. Am I completely off base with this or have other people perceived the same thing?
Money issues aside, just makes me wonder a bit considering all of Rambis’ recent comments about this time of year separating players who won’t roll over and die/check out in the face of losing and those who will compete and fight until the bitter end.
Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.
But..but..but.. he makes more money!
Sarcasm aside, I am kind of worried about Love. I shut last night’s game off at halftime, so I’m not sure what caused Love’s woes, but his play of late is not a good sign. Say what you want about Al, but he seems to always play hard. I want players who will keep busting ass out there even if the team is terrible, not players who effort levels are tied to the team’s compettiiveness or PT. It’s obviously hard to read too much into anything this season, but I wish I knew what was going on behind the scenes. These last few months, with the team in total disarray and all our hopes pinned on the draft and offseason, are going to be rough.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
"but he seems to always play hard"
Yes, if you just pay attention to the offensive half of the court.
I’m not defending Love—he’s checked out as well. But I’ve seen too many lapses and gaps in Al’s defensive effort over the years to give him a break—especially as the highest-paid player on a team that just surrendered 152 points.
Here’s a hypothetical question for you, since we always come back to this “Al is overpaid” thing: What do we do if the team still sucks when Love is due for an extension? Are you going to advocate that we cut him loose when he asks for 10+ million per year if we want to keep him? That would make him a highly paid player, flawed player on a bad team, too. Are you just hoping that the ship is righted by then? Because he’s going to want big money to stick around.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
It really comes down to...
how they play on the floor. If Jefferson plays like he did, pre-injury, then his contract is a good value and we should keep him. What we do with Love is up in the air, at that point.
If Jefferson continues to be inconsistent on offense and bad on defense, as he has been for much of this year, his contract is a bad value, and we should attempt to trade him, if possible. In that scenario, we probably keep Love.
I really hope he rounds in to shape, becaus I think Al is capable of more than we’ve seen. If he can take his even somewhat improved defense and passing and combine it with the unstoppable offense we saw last year, I think he could be a nice piece if we can complement him defensively.
Who knows. I’m really just hoping this all works out somehow.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
The problem...
The only thing that an ‘unstoppable’ Al would do for the Wolves is stop the entire flow of their new offensive system. I just can’t see Al, back to his best or not, fitting in to the current system… if we can call what we currently have a ‘system’.
by Krotz the Wall on Mar 17, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes,
By the time the Wolves resolve the Rubio situation, find an athletic “big,” “get” the Triangle, add Turner/Wall/Cousins/Favors, and sign the effective veteran two guard, Al will be 28 years old and his contract will be up.
By the way, I’m not happy to have been right about this, but the team’s dismal performance WITH Al pretty much repudiates all the “Oh NOES we can’t trade Al for picks and prospects cuz then we’ll be really bad!!!”
Then don't worry...
because you’re not right about that.
Lest you keep forgetting that Jefferson spent/is spending this season injured and we swapped veteran guards for rookies.
Oh, and we’re tanking, by sitting Kevin Love so much and “developing” veterans Sasha Pavlovic and Ryan Hollins.
There are a whole lotta reasons why the Wolves are losing every game, none of which are related to the worth of a healthy Al Jefferson.
If we trade Jefferson for picks and prospects, we will be worse — at least in the short-term — than if we keep him. Unless, one of those picks/prospects is John Wall or Evan Turner. Then, maybe not.
So if we're tanking
and I certainly believe that’s part of the problem, what’s the point of paying Al 12 million per year while we try to not win games?
Simple
We hope to win in the future, maybe even next year.
The chances of that happening go down — not up — if Al is traded for picks and prospects, with the noted caveat that Evan Turner or John Wall might be worth more wins, immediately, than a healthy Big Al.
"We hope to win in the future, maybe even next year."
Thanks, I needed a laugh after last night’s game.
You do realize this is one of the all-time worst teams in the NBA, right? Do you watch the games? Do you see any glimmer of hope for this team for next year? Do you see any semblance of raw talent that’s going to add the, say, 30 wins to the record that is needed to even get the 8th seed and then get blown out by the Lakers? Do you see any reasons to believe that Kahn and Rambis know what they’re doing, and that Taylor is willing to spend money to support their efforts? Do you see any hope that Rubio is going to be in a Wolves uniform—ever? Do you see any free agents on the radar that the Wolves could sign who would improve this team?
I’m not asking hypothetically. I really want to know. Because my answer to all of the questions above is “no,” and I wish it were “yes.”
And do you see any semblance of rational rotations or of an identity developing when you watch this team? I don’t, and that means that they are placing approximately zero emphasis on winning this year.
Make no mistake, this is not a good team, but they aren’t as bad as what we’re seeing. If Love and Al saw the floor more together (and Love just in general), Flynn was reeled in and Sessions given a longer leash, as well as a few other changes, this team could be a lot more competitive. Of course, they’d still suck in the long-term, so I kind of understand the “tank to get a top 2” philosophy we seem to be endorsing right now. Not saying I want to endure another season of it, or that I agree 100%, but there is absolutely no mistaking that the best top-end talent in the league is found in the draft.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Yes, you're right about the draft
but doesn’t a loss by say, two points, count the same in the standings as a loss by, say, I dunno. 35 points? Do they get, like, inverse lotto chances by being destroyed night and night out, rather than just barely losing every game?
Or maybe they’re so good and talented, that Kahn and Rambis are worried that even while tanking the ball will magically bounce in the hoop a la Flubber and they’ll win games by accident.
We get extra pity from Lord Stern for losing by over 30 points. IT’S A LOCK BABY! HERE WE COME TURNER!
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
And I should say that, if we’re operating under the assumption that they truly are tanking, then yes, losing by a lot is different than losing by 2, because losing by 2 can very well turn in to winning, and even a game or two can knock you down the lotto standings.
I know we all want to see effort and wins at all times, because we’re fans and who honestly wants to cheer for a rebuild, but if Kahn and Co. are serious about drafting as high as possible this year, then they may as well go all-in. Think of it as a short-term sacrifice for the long-term good.
That doesn’t excuse not playing your best young player, but I don’t think that’s part of the tanking plan. More likely than not, there’s something going on between Love and Rambis, independent of our intentional losing.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Also...
it’s not practical to say to the team, “Guys, we need to lose tonight’s game.”
Even if the players know or suspect what’s actually going on, there needs to be some facade of trying to do something instead of actually tanking the games away.
Sounds like they’re doing some hard workouts with Crouton — maybe that burns up their legs and energy for game nights. I don’t know. What is clear is that we were playing better earlier in the year, when a win versus Denver or Utah wasn’t completely out of the question.
That is a long list of questions.
Worst all time teams?
I’ll briefly run down the worst-teams list of recent seasons:
10 – Nets (> 10?)
09 – Kings (17)
08 – Heat (15)
I’m not sure if we’re one of the worst-ever. We’re certainly one of the two worst teams, this year, though.
Watch the games?
I attend quite a few, but in tanking season, it’s pretty hard to watch on TV — sometimes I do, though.
Glimmer of hope for next year?
I’ll have a better answer on May 18, when I know if we’re getting Evan Turner or not. That said, Jefferson should look more like his old self, and I assume most or all of the inexperienced players will look a little better. But if we don’t land Turner or Wall, there isn’t much hope.
Semblance of raw talent/potential for 45-50 win season?
I suppose there is. Just thinking about this rationally, we had the makings of a 45-win team with Foye-Miller-Love-Jefferson and whatnot. It might have taken another year to get there, but that was probably realistic. Obviously, that changed with Jefferson’s injury. But, I think Flynn, Sessions, Ellington and the player we draft in this lottery can probably rise to Foye and Miller’s level and get us there, so my answer is yes.
Reasons to believe Kahn/Rambis/Taylor can do their jobs/spend money?
Not really, but I don’t have much reason to think they can’t/won’t, either. With Kahn, there isn’t much to go off of. He flipped Foye and Miller for Ricky Rubio’s rights. He made a few meaningless trades. He acquired Darko. He drafted Jonny Flynn and Wayne Ellington. None of those decisions have killed us, and one of them potentially saves the franchise, depending on what happens in 2011 with Rubio. Judging Rambis would be to make a lot of assumptions. Does he really think Hollins is better than Love? I doubt it. He’s trying to teach an offense to a combination of very young players, injured players, and very bad players. As for Glen Taylor, he once signed KG to a $126 Million, record-setting contract right after the bastard turned down $102 Million, which was ridiculous, at that time. So yes, I think he’ll spend money if it makes sense.
Rubio?
I don’t know, and neither do you or Just a Fan. We will have to wait and see what he wants to do. My guess is that it will involve the NBA. He’s a slightly more-hyped player and figure than Tiago Splitter, so I’m not worried about what you posted on that front. I think Ricky sees himself in the NBA as soon as that decision doesn’t take his career from lucrative to debt-ridden. From my understanding, that is 2011.
Free agents?
I don’t really know, or care. We’re not getting LeBron, Wade, Bosh or Johnson, and I never thought we would.
"Just thinking about this rationally, . . .
. . . we had the makings of a 45-win team with Foye-Miller-Love-Jefferson and whatnot."
I’m not sure how four players playing significant minutes on two teams that won’t COMBINE to win 45 games had the makings of a 45-win team playing together, but, whatever.
That said, you are a “fan” in the truest sense of the word. And your optimism is probably necessary here to counter my cynical jaded pissing and moaning. Especially since KLJ is apparently in a Cone of Silence for the foreseeable future.
Hah!
Well, you’re right that KLJ is missed in this discussion, but my optimism is still far behind his.
In thinking that the Fearsome Foursome of FMLJ could tap out at 45-wins, I’m just going off their lone season together. With McHale as coach and Jefferson in the lineup, they won 41% of their games. That 31-game stretch began with an 8-game losing streak before the much-discussed January of winning. It is a solid representation of that team’s quality. With Love being only a rookie, couldn’t that team go from a 34 to 45 win pace over a few seasons together?
It’s only an 8-seed type of season and hardly worth celebrating, so I don’t think I’m overly optimistic, here. Hell, McHale put the team together (and wanted to keep it together) so he must have had higher hopes than 45 wins.
Virtually every comment of yours on Jefferson ignores his knee injury and/or implicitly states that this season represents his future as a basketball player. That is a big reason for our disagreement, I’m afraid. If I’m an optimist, it’s because I think Al can and will return to the old days of games like this.
No, I actually really like Al Jefferson
Where we differ is how close we think this team is to being competitive. I think they’re years away, you (and plenty others who are also smarter than me) seem to think it’s months, correct?
If this is a 40 win team next year, then, yes, it makes better sense to hang on to Al Jefferson, especially if his value in a trade is only some other decent sometime-injured longer-contract player in his mid 20s.
But I didn’t see that as being likely this season, and as to next season, well, let’s just say that going 1-16 since the Magical Four-Game Winning Streak hasn’t inspired my confidence that we’ll see 40 wins next year. So, if we’re two more years from being a .500 team, paying Al $25 million over that time is a waste of money.
I wonder if the Magical Four-Game Winning Streak...
inspired the hiring of Crouton. Maybe they decided the team was best-served doing its hard work on the practice floor, and saving the games for resting and tinkering, so as to fight off Golden State for lotto positioning. Who knows.
I have no idea if or when the Wolves will be competitive. I just think that Jefferson will be better next year and worthy of his contract. If we land a great rookie like Evan Turner, there might be some instant results that lead to a 30-40 win season, right away. If not, I’d still rather watch the team with Jefferson on it than most of the reasonable alternatives.
I think the Wolves will be a playoff contender
for about half of next season, although ultimately end up at about 35 wins. I’m making two assumptions, they draft either Wall or Turner, and do something productive with Love and Jefferson (trading one for a starter and using the other more effectively). Don’t forget, a few seasons ago the Celtics had the 2nd worst record in the league, then won a title the next season. Not saying that is going to happen, but you really should allow yourself to have a little hope, at least until they get screwed in the lottery and start the season with Love and Jefferson again!
How terrible is it...
That we have to argue over whether we’re tanking or not. The fact that anyone who thinks we’re “tanking” is considered an Optimist is a bad sign for these Wolves.
Right--
If you are a TWolves fan, here are your options:
1. Your team sucks.
2. Your team is trying to lose.
Or, in an abundance of despair, I guess it could be both.
It is both
Mostly it’s number 1, though.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 17, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Who cares if Al doesn't fit into our "current system"
Because our current system…SUCKS! Al may have issues, but the problem is this “system”.
Sure...
The system and the personnel certainly don’t match up, and I have big questions about the actual system itself. But, and I think this is key, that Al even at his best is not a #1. He only has half the game he’d need to truly define and lift a team (at the 4 or 5). Sadly, I don’t actually think that Al has a whole lot that he hasn’t shown us. I don’t think he’s ever going to be even average on D. At his most unstoppable, he’ll always be a black hole to the flow of the team at the Offensive end.
So, what do they do? Al will be 28 and at the end of his contract once this team starts really coming together. Kahn and Rambis will be here next year, and most likely the year after even if things are still going poorly. Does Jefferson suddenly change his game? No. I don’t think the Wolves are going to tear down the system and try to build to Al’s strength. What is the decision then? Get value for Al, or… trade Love/rights to Rubio (who most agree is best suited to a flowing offense) and do their best to build a truly great 1/2 court team, with 3pt snipers, and the ability to absolutely hide Al on defense… 2 years from now?
I like Al, and I do think a team can win with him. I just can’t see that team being the Wolves any more. The best chance for that passed during last season’s draft, in my opinion. My point was to ask what is the best option, right now and in the immediate future, for the Wolves? Simply hanging on to Al, without a lot of other changes, doesn’t seem likely to me.
by Krotz the Wall on Mar 17, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
"He's going to want big money to stick around"
They all do. The difference between Al now and Love then is that I’m guessing the salary climate will be substantially lower when Love is up for an extension than what it was when Al signed his. I also think Love is never going to be a 20/10 guy (especially not as the sixth man getting 20 minutes a night), but may be a better team player per dollar cost than Al is (that’s just my perception).
If in a few years Kevin Love is the player he is today, and can get 55 million over four years then from some other team, I would strongly encourage him to take that offer. I highly doubt he will get that offer.
Yes,
Love’s apparent mutual dissatisfaction with the team is Item 249B in Stuff to Not Like About This Team.
That said, maybe he’s fed up with the illogical rotations and minutes as we are, and doesn’t know how to do anything about it. Al’s older, well-accustomed to 20-win seasons (is he on his way to being the all time career leader?), already got paid, and is just about guaranteed to get paid a whole lot more.
It's a two-way street
Sounds like Kahn & Rambis anticipated/expected the carnage this year. If they did not plan to manage satisfaction with the guys they do want to keep around, it’s a major oversight. If they have tried to manage it and are failing, it’s not a good sign. Same as trying/failing to get Rubio here.
Trading Love for Money?
Agree trading Al is cost effective. But if wolves think Love is a redundant bench player but view Al as a potential #1 and worst case #2 they will trade Love to team that values Love as more than a redundant bench player.
I think the playing rotations indicate that for the Wolves Al > Love. And I think that the wolves value Al more than the rest of the teams in the league. I think they value Love less than many teams. This is a recipe for a trade. Undervaluing Love encourages Love trade, overvaluing Al hinders a Jefferson trade.
I hope I am wrong.
by littleboxes on Mar 17, 2010 9:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I hope you are, too
but aren’t you framing this scenario in a “what will they get in return” philosophy? I’m going with Straight Cash, Homey, as in “Love gives us a lot of what Al does at a third of the cost.”
straight cash is nice
but I’m thinking about teams having large divergences in how they value players. This leads to both teams thinking they are getting great “value” in a trade.
that’s most likely to happen with Love. Consider a team like Houston that invests heavily in statistical analysis. And consider the wolves.
suppose Houston values Love highly and the wolves do not.
suppose Houston offers Shane Battier and a 1st round pick for KLove.
Wolves say, gee, I’d rather have a solid affordable soon expiring veteran bench player that’s a wing and a pick in the mid first round that a solid affordable soon to be extended bunch player that’s a forward.
I’m sure there’s a better example. Bottom line: divergent valuations such as this lead to trades.
With Al, the Wolves over value him relative to the rest of the league. This does not lead to a trade because the Wolves cannot get back their perceived value.
by littleboxes on Mar 17, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
No kidding
But as much I hope I’m wrong, I think what the esteemed littleboxes is saying is that Al may almost be viewed as being so overpaid that the Wolves would have to either offer up something else (i.e., a pick) or take back an equally unattractive contract (i.e. Deng) to get another team to take him.
The Wolves have really put themselves and the remaining few dozen fans in a tough spot. When you’re running ads touting your cap space as the “next piece”, you’re setting an expectation that this offseason is going to be a meaningful one. Even if they are overspending, they may be forced to use that cap room this year just from a “we have to show that we did something” perspective.
One wonders whether this horrific slide to the finish of the season
Will affect Kahn’s approach to the off-season. Will in engender more desperation? Will it make him more eager to blow up the roster? Trade Al?
Moves borne of desperation are generally not good ones, though it’s hard to see how this could get much worse.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 17, 2010 9:03 AM CDT reply actions
Kahn needs to stick with his vision
and continue to re-make the roster into one that will thrive in an uptempo system. As long as his moves yield us players that better fit the style of play he wants to implement, then I’m all for blowing up the roster to whatever degree is necessary to make that happen. I think the only thing stopping him from making a trade that yields a better fit is if he isn’t getting good value in return. That’s the only way Jefferson is back next season in my opinion.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 17, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
This is going exactly as Kahn and Rambis planned
Wolves implemented full tank mode after win #13 the 4 game winning streak. There was desperation that winning a few more games would move the Wolves out of a top 3 draft pick… this is exactly what Kahn and Rambis planned…
Wouldn't it be fitting
If 3 teams drew 1-2-3, so the Nets pick 4th and Wolves pick 5th…
Hahahahahaha
A bunch of random comments
There is a pretty deflated group of FO folks these days. After working their a$$ off to update files on every NBA player, under the guise that the trade deadline was one of our “5” opportunities to improve the team, Kahn sat on his hands. He did not actively make calls nor did he receive many (after he very publicly stated the “core” would not be traded). You will see a pretty big FO changes next year – most of the contracts are up – and frankly most of them will be gone (because either Kahn does not want them or because they don’t want Kahn) So in addition to a huge summer for free agency, Kahn will be rebuilding the FO staff.
Which is OK, because I (and my FO friend) are convinced that only lower tier free agents will consider the Twolves this summer. So rebuilding the FO will give Kahn something else to do.
My biggest bitch about Kahn and the draft was that he went into the draft without hiring a coach. So, you drafted players without really knowing the style of play that will be implemented. It lead to a mismatched pick at #6 – there were many more options that would have been better fits – if Rambis had been on board to influence the choice.
There is tremendous amount of expectations being placed on Rubio in 2011-12. I am not so sure he comes to MN. In addition to the comments made by Poor DIck, there are some doubts that Rubio will thrive in the NBA now that he has been more thoroughly scouted. If he gets placed on a free flowing type team (think Phoenix, NY), bets are that he will be a superstar. One FO guy thinks he would be the perfect fit to replace Steve Nash and keep Phoenix as contender for another 10 years. But if he gets placed on a more structured environment, most think he will struggle. Does anyone see Rambis changing to a free flowing offense? Me neither. Trust me on this – that issue alone will influence Rubio’s decision to sign with us.
If we don’t end up with Turner, we are screwed. There is no one else in the draft (that includes Wall) who makes us immediately better by not only adding a strong player but by adding a player that will make existing players better. Biggest FO fear – getting the #2 pick and having someone take Turner as #1. We would be forced to take Wall, leaving our roster terribly unbalanced (which everyone in the NBA knows – so trade offers would be proportionally lower).
Love is a seriously pissed off player. He is ultra competitive and hates the losing. He is not pleased by taking a 6th man role on a team losing this badly. Some tension between him and Rambis. Will be interesting to watch.
by Just A Fan on Mar 17, 2010 9:21 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs
Recommended
and I’m signing up for another account so that I can recommend it again.
Thank you for the update—your insight is appreciated, as a fan, long-suffering ticket buyer, and with your connections to the Brain Trust (I hope your guy isn’t one to go, unless it’s by his own choice).
Wall would improve the team, but more in a two-steps-forward-one-step-back manner. It’s sad that it’s come to this—the only reason for hope with this team is if they get the number one overall pick.
I have no reason other than gut instinct to believe that Love is not the problem with this team, and that your comments about his dissatisfaction with the current state of the team are due to his competitiveness, rather than a lack of it.
Great Post...
Thanks for the insight. The Rubio issue is a very interesting one…. obviously big improvements need to happen for us to have a shot. If Rambis starts using tighter rotations, puts a heavier focus on defense, and we start running more then it would make any pitch easier to sell. Also, having a guy like Evan Turner would help out a lot too.
Who wouldn't be pissed if you were in Love's shoes?
Working hard earlier got him nowhere. We continue to lose. There is no rhyme or reason to Rambis’ rotations, and Rambis also refuses to try anything new. We’re talking Randy Wittman levels of density.
Here is an update of how Love’s minutes compares to Lopez, Mayo, and Beasley:
Mayo: In 150 games he has topped 36 minutes 103 times.
Lopez: In 149 games he has topped 36 minutes 57 times.
Beasley: In 145 games he has topped 36 minutes 24 times.
Love: in 127 games he has topped 36 minutes…6 times!
It is truly baffling.
If your key message for the year is player development, I’d certainly be playing my best guys, especially young ones like Love, for 35 minutes a game, every game. Force Love to stretch his game, and his wind, in his second season… truly maximize his learning curve for this season. We all know that there is a serious lack of talent on the squad. It also seems apparent that the Wolves aren’t interested in even winning winnable games any more. How are we supposed to believe that Love is coming off the bench because we want balanced units? If you’re not trying to win, and you don’t have the talent to be balanced, why not just focus on building the chemistry and development of your core?
Of course, if the FO is looking at Sessions, Ellington/Brewer, Love as the primary core for next year… (Al trade in this scenario and Flynn as 6th man)… then they just might be doing it after all. Still, this season can’t get done with quickly enough.
by Krotz the Wall on Mar 17, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
He refuses to try the *right* new things, anyway.
The guy’s trotted out Ryan Hollins as a starting power forward. He’s not unable to engage in unconventional thought.
Rambis is stuck in some odd ways….
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Someone please address this with Kahn at Canis night!
by Blond Ricky on Mar 17, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Dude, I would love to draft Mr. Wall
Trust me, drafting Wall is not the FO’s worst nightmare… picking 5th probably is… Love is pissed because this has been a tankathon since the 4 game winning streak, and he is too effective to be put on the court for 30 minutes a game (or the wolves might actually win some games).
Front office cleanouts are a good thing
If anything last summer’s activity always had a strong undercurrent of the old regime to it. I’d vastly prefer to have the Wolves clean house, and if it hadn’t been for Glen sitting on his hands between bumping McHale down to the end of last season we should have seen that.
We may all like Freddie Hoiberg, that’s not the issue. It was past time for things to change at Target Center. We need to finish that job.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Rubio
I don’t see an issue in terms of Rubio’s fit with our existing offense. The Wolves are 3rd in pace of play with a desire to run even more and the triangle is free flowing if you don’t have players like Flynn and Jefferson stopping ball movement. If you watch Rubio he nearly always bring the ball up the court and immediately passes it off to another player to initiate the half-court offense, which is very similar to how the triangle works. Rubio doesn’t have the ball in his hands nearly as much as Steve Nash or Chris Paul do in their respective roles. What’s awesome is just how many assists he gets anyway.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 17, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
That's what I've been thinking about Love
The last year-and 3/4 are probably the first time in his young life he’s ever been part of a losing team. During the same period, he’s had three coaches and has played under three different offensive systems. Last season, Witt claimed that he had to earn his minutes -even though it was apparent early that the kid had helpful skills. This year, Love’s watch a rook (Flynn) not only start immediately, but get consistant burn no matter what he did (to be fair, I think that Flynn has talent and definately belongs in the NBA, but he was the wrong choice for this team).
In full disclosure, I am a Love fan. I’m disappointed in the behavior he’s shown, but sadly, I’m surprised that he held it in this long.
Also been wondering about the Rambis hiring. The last Jackson lieutenant I can recall getting a head coaching post (and please correct me if I’m wrong – I’m used to it!) was Jim Cleamons with Dallas in the mid-90s. The ensuing train wreck there has me wondering if maybe Zen Master picks “role coaches” as he does players – guys who are good as long as they stay within an area of expertise, but show their inadequacies quickly when asked to do more. Any thoughts?
Cut the cord?
At what point does this team make like OKC and fire, in his second year, an esteemed head coach who was a top assistant with a championship club?
Presti was not patient with Carlisemo and the Wolves should not be patient with Rambis.
by littleboxes on Mar 17, 2010 4:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It will be a test of Taylor's willingness to spend money
Will Glen be willing to swallow 2 1/2 years of Rambis’s contract if things aren’t better in the first half of next season? And is the right replacement for Rambis sitting a seat or two away, as you’re not going to get a known quantity in midseason?
Won't fire Rambis at mid-season
Either they show improvement and everyone is happy, or they start badly and just go for one more tank season and high pick. If they start bad, no sense salvaging a 30 win season and risking losing the pick to the Clippers a year early.
That wasn't a train wreck because of Cleamons
It was a train wreck because the 3 best players hated each other and had no interest in changing their games. It’s not like Kidd is a model teammate or Jackson/Mashburn turned out to be stars. Then, Don Nelson was hired as GM, and he’s not exactly a patient person or someone who can stay out of the spotlight. Bottom line, Cleamons wasn’t the reason those teams stunk, and he got less of a chance than Dwane Casey.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Mar 17, 2010 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I think there was also a girlfriend stealing issue
it was a long time ago, but pretty sure someone stole a girlfriend from one of the others.
I wrote a very long reply and then deleted it, because it depressed me too much. I’ll just simply say I posted soon after Kahn was hired that there were worrisome similarities to his beginning tenure and a certain New York Knicks former GM who is now a basketball laughingstock. I truly hope my worries are groundless, but after nearly a season…they are in fact healthier than ever.
The assets Kahn has to spend were accumulated by the previous, outgoing front office, who really did a pretty amazing job of picking up draft picks and shedding contracts (this was the fo by committee, not McHale, who was justly demoted to something he was good at.) So far, drafting Flynn, signing Hollins, signing Sasha, sending 2 picks to OKC for Damien Wilkins… I do like his cashing in of assets for Rubio, and the Sessions signing was good.
The wooing of Darko and the trade for him was good, and the nurturing of Brewer into something resembling an NBA player is good as well. If they’d spent half the effort they did on those two on the best young player on the team that would have been a lot more useful. Unfortunately the first words out of Kahn’s mouth on Love was to label his ceiling as 4th best on a championship team, and then Rambis put him on the bench despite being pretty clearly the best player on the team. Go back and watch the non-Love games when he was out if the last few absent (physically and/or mentally) games aren’t enough.
It depresses me greatly to think our best hope is that the tin-foil hat wearing crowd is right, and being Stern’s buddy is finally going to break the wolves improbable run of lottery misery.
Let me know when Kahn trades two #1s for Eddy Curry and then signs two terrible bench players to MLE contracts. Until then, I think looking for any similarity between those two is quite a stretch. For example, sessions gave us plenty of reasons to think he was a legit NBA player, and he still got way less than an Isaiah deal, and Pavs is here for one year taking up space and helping us assure our bottom 2 record. Thomas would have signed Sasha to the MLE for 5 years after his one decent year in Cleveland, then traded an unprotected first and expiring deal for Michael Redd. Ugh.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m still completely in limbo as far as what to think about Kahn, but to call him a bad GM so far is pretty premature. He hasn’t knocked anything out of the park yet, mostly for lack of opportunity, but most of the rest of his moves have sort of made sense. I don’t think we’ll be able to truly pass judgment until he’s put together a team he feels can compete. Right now it’s all just assets with barely any framework, which will hopefully change before too long. Evaluating moves made now, in the team’s current state, is like passing judgment on a particularly brush stroke made by an artist on a halfway painted picture. The individual moves won’t make sense until we can see the completed product in front of us. Hopefully luck shines on us and we’re left with something enjoyable.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Kahn
might have hit a 500-foot home run with the Foye trade — we just don’t know yet. If we’re watching a Rubio-led Wolves in the 2014 NBA Finals, that trade goes down as one of the great sports management moves of all time, probably right behind Hershel Walker for 3 Super Bowl rings.
to be clear
I’m not saying he is as bad or even ‘bad’, I’m saying I’m worried about it, and hoping he isn’t. Isaiah actually got a fair amount of good press at first for his wheeling and dealing that completeley turned over the Knicks roster to bring in guys like Nazr Mohammed, pre-Steve&Barry Steph, etc. to build a more athletic, running sort of team. The biggest edge Kahn has is that he actually has assets, Isiah didn’t have any and traded them away anyway. I really have a hard time believing he could make the colassal mistakes Isiah did simply because I can’t imagine anyone’s judgment being that bad, but I can already easily imagining him burning up our picks, our cap space, our expiring contracts, and ending up with locked-in, long-term mediocrity. This summer should tell, and I am occasionally hopeful – just not after games like this
I find it strange that everyone criticizes going into the draft without a coach
If the players don’t fit Rambis, then the problem wasn’t the draft but rather the coaching hire. Kahn had to know what he was getting with Rambis, so it makes me think he anticipates high player turnover.
I don’t have much sympathy for the unhappy FO guys, how hard is it to update files on 400 NBA players. What is that, eight per day spread throughout the staff??
Your take on Rubio seems valid, though I don’t understand the concern. If Kahn has been consistent on one thing since he was hired, it is that he wants a “Running, transition oriented offense.” Seems perfect for a guy who apparently is the perfect replacement for Steve Nash???
This
If they don’t like their jobs, I’ll take it!
Good point about Rubio as well.
A quick rebuttal
Is it the chicken or the egg? do the players fit the coach or the coach fit the players? Or could this argument been render moot by doing what most GM’s do first – hire their coach.
If your boss gives you a project, tells you it is crucial for the success of the business, you spend a significant amount of time on the road (these were on site evaluations done multiple times), and then the big day comes – and nothing happens. Do you think you feel you wasted your time? Human nature my friend.
Finally, Kahn has achieved his goal of running and transition offense. He did it by fielding what could be the worse defensive team in a decade. That leads to lots of extra possessions to quicken the pace of play.
Couple comments
To your first question, I think a good coach can coach any style of player as long as there is talent to coach.
To your second, I don’t think it’s necessarily an accurate analogy. They weren’t doing that research specifically for the ‘10 trade deadline. They were doing it for the last 10 years and hopefully they will keep whatever their database consists of updated from here on out. I imagine it won’t be as hard once you have the foundation set. Don’t know what’s all included, but I will say that it isn’t fair to demand immediate results from your work… especially in this line of work. Or maybe all the work told the boss that the best course of action was to stay put. Do you know if anyone suggested that, “player X would be a perfect candidate and is just waiting to break out, he could be had for a small price”? If that happened, then I would blame Kahn for not taking advantage. If he tried and got rejected, that’s nothing to be angry about.
As to the chicken or egg
If the concept is to hire the best coach for the players on the team, then McHale should still be the coach! Of course this also fits the analogy that it is easier to fire a coach than trade an entire team.
On the flip side, I think the best teams have a committed organization. They decide at the top the type of team they want (could be several styles, many can work). Then they hire a coach (or long term it would be coaches), and bring in players who fit the style. A football example would be the Pittsburgh Steelers. A baseball example would be the Twins. I think Kahn is trying to build a team along this principle, knowing in the short-term it will be disgusting, but hoping that in the long run it will be great. Watching twenty year old single malt scotch being made in 1990 isn’t very exciting, but it tastes pretty good today!
It's still pretty amazing...
..how much any rebuilding plan comes down to finding Basketball Jesus. At the end of the day, I think Kahn thinks he has one in Rubio and he’s all-in on the kid. I don’t think people really appreciate just how much Kahn has riding on the guy.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I agree
and I really, really, really, really, really (get my sense of desperation) hope he is right. I think Kahn was hoping for Tyreke and figured Flynn would make a good complement, ended up getting a higher rated player in Rubio and went with Flynn again as a complementary player. The posters here haven’t discussed this much, but Rubio is probably playing tougher competition than Wall, and still looks good. I don’t think anybody would dispute that Rubio would go in the top-5 again in what is a better draft this summer.
Someone in this post brought up the Showtime Lakers. They haven’t said it publicly, but I really believe Kahn and Rambis are trying to emulate that team. That is why Rubio will be the PG and they are tanking to try to get Turner (tall guy who can handle the ball like a PG, but obviously not as good as Magic). That is also why I think Jefferson stays and Love gets traded….all those cool Laker fast breaks rarely involved Kareem, he was their half court guy, just like Jefferson.
Copy this and use it against me later, but I am convinced if the Wolves get Turner their next move is trading the Charlotte pick and Flynn to get Cole Aldrich. Sessions will play 30 MPG next season at PG, Turner gets the rest. Eventually Turner moves to SG, with Brewer at SF and Rubio at PG. A center combo of Darko and Aldrich would be good for at least next season, though I think Darko is gone. I’m still not convinced Brewer is a starting SF on a contender, but when I see dagger dunks like he does on occasion I wonder if he has an upside we are only starting to see.
BTW
This is probably dream world, but if the Wolves were lucky enough to get the 1st pick, I would be thrilled if they could trade Love and Flynn for the 2nd pick. Let Sessions and Wall run the point next season, then a year later the back court is Wall, Rubio, and Turner…with Turner also playing about 10 MPG at SF (and Brewer at least 20 MPG at SF). That would be a fun decade of the 10’s.
One thing people forget, Jefferson is a black hole when he gets the ball, but with a good perimeter offense and a good fast break he wouldn’t see the ball half as much as he does now.
I find it kind of funny...
…that McHale was going for the 86 Celtics and that Kahn appears to be going for Showtime and all we have for their efforts is 15 wins and a horrific offense with a terrible d.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Its simply “tank city” right now to protect the number of ping-pong balls in the next lotto.
Unfortunately, I don’t see any of the top free agents coming to Minny to join this crew. This franchise has little open of significant improvement through free agency or via trades.
The only hope is via the draft and once again its not looking very good. Two lotto picks in the 2009 draft have yielded very little.
To me, this has been the toughest year since before KG was drafted (excepting the Wittman beginning to last year).
The games have been unwatchable, and it has been more or less clear that few of the players here are the ones the team will be built around. Furthermore, Kahn has yet to demonstrate that he can draft effectively, recruit players to MN, or make impact trades. Maybe he can – but how do we know? The disconnect with Rambis does not help either.
Looking for signs of hope. I like Turner too – but I would not place expectations on him of making an impact year one. He’s the right type of player and should be good, but like most will need a few years for his body and game to mature. So next year looks to be more of the same, but hopefully a few more long-term pieces actually on the court.
I've said this before...
A lot of what’s gone wrong can be blamed squarely on Kurt Rambis and Kurt Rambis’ system. If you use Win’s Produced, it’s not hard to come up with a rotation (Love/Jefferson playing 36 minutes, Sessions playing 40, Flynn/Wilkins/Brewer/Gomes all around 25-30 mins, Ryan Hollins playing Negative 12) that leads to the Wolves winning 33-37 games.
The Wolves don’t just need Wall/Turner from a talent standpoint, we need them so that Rambis can start to feel the heat for all the poor decisions he’s made thus far.
I doubt that...
The Twolves losing by near 40 to the Suns a great selling point for getting Rubio to MN.
Apastration is exactly where I am at
I might still go to a game this year, just to see Darko. I doubt he will be back next year.
Reasons to live
- We need a #1 superstar player
- Most of them come to a team through the top 5 picks in the draft
- We have the 2nd worst record in the league. Hard as it has been to watch this is great news!
- There are 2 very special players in this years draft (Turner & Wall).
- There are 2 special players who may be very special in the draft (Favors and Cousins).
- We will likely get the Charlotte pick, which is a nice bonus, but not nearly as important as all the points above.
Things we can root for over the next month:
- The T-wolves to lose just enough games to finish 1 game behind the Warriors, guaranteeing a top 5 pick and likely a top 4 pick.
- Favors and Cousins to have great tournaments and shoot into top 2 pick contention, increasing our odds of getting Wall or Turner.
- Charlotte to finish in 8th place in the East.
I know it’s been a tough season to watch on the floor…but the first point is the most important: we need that #1 superstar and if it takes a few 15-67 seasons to get one, well…then so be it.
The good news is that Favors
has definitely taken his game up a notch lately, which is great to see. Cousins has been a beast all season, so for him it’s more about the intangibles.
by Rascal Flatts on Mar 17, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I cannot disagree with anything you say, especially the #1 Superstar point. That being said, I’m getting more excited for this offseason because of Favors and Cousins development and the realization that their are 4 potential superstars in this draft. Definitely a much stronger draft than last year. Those four also seem to play 4 different positions, PG, SG, PF and C. To me getting any one of these four is worth the tanking, and depending on which of the four you get will dictate roster moves. Favors I think has the longest development track with Cousins and Turner being most likely to contribute immediately with Wall being right behind them. For me after watching this atrocious basketball and becoming more prone to just ignore the Wolves games in general, I am focused on the college game, the draft lottery, and measurements for Favors and Cousins.
I agree on all 4
I was thinking just Turner or Wall until the last few weeks but the more I see Favors and the more I read about Cousins I get more excited about the former and less worried about the latter.
I think there may really be 4 #1 type players in this draft…and we’re going to get one.
Drafting Flynn was a poor choice and is a black mark on Kahn, but the trade to get the Rubio pick was a real plus and he’ll have another chance to get things right in a few months. Can’t hardly wait. :)
I would love to see Cousins/Favors push Wall/Turner down
to increase our chances of getting them. I just don’t see it happening. Wall has been the consensus #1 and is an outstanding PG prospect in a class with virtually no others. Turner has been pretty much the best player in NCAA BB all year.
Where this might into play, though, is if the Wolves acquire a second top 5/10 pick through trading Love/Jefferson. Then it could push another wing prospect down if that is their target. Conversely if they were hoping for Favors as a better fit for the system they want to run, they’ll need to spend even more assets to get a crack at him.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Just looking at the standings, I would think both Sacramento and Detroit would want Cousins/Favors over Turner/Wall based on positional needs. Could Turner or Wall play effectively with Evans? Detroit has Bynum, Stuckey and Hamilton locked in at the 1 and 2 and has serious needs for Size and will be capped out for some time.
Draft order is going to dictate everything, but I don’t think Wall/Turner will automatically go 1 and 2 irrespective of the draft order.
Yeah – Wall and Turner are certainly likely to go 1 and 2, but I don’t think it’s a mortal lock.
Turner could be bumped down a spot or two, he isn’t a great athlete and doesn’t have the potential to be one of the all-time greats. But boy he seems like a low risk, very, very good player for a long time and I’d be thrilled if we had him.
at first glance i figured "apastration" was a hybrid of "apathy" and "castration."
because, you know, ive been reading a lot of freud’s views on women these days.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
We have been playing defense with no balls all season
…above and beyond last night.
Perhaps the team should change its name
The Minnesota Eunuchs.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
If this becomes a trend we'll have to consider hiring
Avery Johnson as head coach due to his voice.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Mar 17, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Say what you will
But Avery Jonson Transformed Dallas from a soft team into a legit contender, went to the finals, won 67 games, its not his fault the players choked, he’d IMO be the perfect guy to light a fire under Al’s ass. That matador crap we see wouldn’t fly with the little General.
I like Johnson as a coach
Was just making a joke re: his high pitched voice.
I’ve read for months that he’s been waiting out the NO job, since they are ready to win and Scott was obviously on the way out.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Mar 17, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Linked from ESPN's TrueHoop!
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14350/wednesday-bullets-153
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
That's swell and all, but anyone who clicks on the link and reads the article is...
going to see SnP would rather have a lineup of Curry, Miller, Gomes, Love, and AL w/ Foye & Brewer off the bench instead of having Rubio and a shot at Wall/Turner.
They will come to the reasonable conclusion that all wolves fans are idiots, which is simply not true.
or that roundhouse has reading comprehension issues
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I understand the frustration of fans, especially season ticket holders
But isn’t this about what we all expected. At the start of camp, the consensus was 25-28 wins, when Love was injured that fell to 22-25. I predicted 22 wins. Is it worse than expected, sure, but part of the reason is they are sticking to a plan rather than trying to get 5 more meaningless wins. I said the season would be a success if they found four players who could be in the rotation on a contender…maybe not four, but I count three, so not all bad. With any luck, Flynn or Darko could be the fourth. I really don’t think most of the players did less than expected, what wasn’t expected was how much playing time end of the bench players were going to get. If this draft becomes a redux of the 2003 draft and they are tanking, will we be complaining in two seasons?
Current NBA win totals: MN (14), GSW (18), WASH (21). That’s a total of 53 wins between three teams. Anybody thinking that Curry, Foye, and Miller were going to make this a significantly better team is too frustrated or seeing something not there. Even if it did produce around 30 wins we would have spent half the season worrying about losing the 11th pick in a great draft to the Clippers…for what??
Try this perspective…The Wolves may have gotten the best value of the 2009 draft, then set themselves up to have three 1st rounders in what looks to be a great, deep draft. Can the lottery burn the Wolves, sure and likely. But even then, as a couple guys just mentioned above, this may be similar to the KG draft where major talent goes 5 deep, and the Wolves are pretty much locked into the top 5. The Wolves performance is actually becoming quite like it was just before KG was drafted, maybe this is a POSITIVE omen.
Should they have traded Jefferson at the start of the season, or even the deadline? Obviously many feel this way and I won’t disagree with your logic, but what was he worth, especially at 70% in November? What would you be saying if they traded him, him was 100% now and dominating on a playoff team. Would any of you be complaining that they moved him too fast??? Of course not.
It’s been a long season, people are frustrated. Some of you may benefit by tuning out all things Wolves for a couple weeks (you know who you are Benjamin). Let the rest of the season pass and come back in May looking forward to the possibilities the off-season presents.
Good points.
This is definitely a good draf to be locked in to the top. A top 4 field of Wall/Turner/Favors/Cousins beats Griffin/Rubio/Evans/Thabeet (or Harden) in my book every day. Evans evens it a bit, but I think the added strength from having 4 great prospects vs. only 3 last year gives this year the nod.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
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