Canis Hoopus: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: NFL Week One: Previews and Predictions for all 15 games

On Flynn and Curry


Seeing as how many of us are lusting after Curry and what might have been since reviewing the latest Hoopus scores, I thought I'd look a bit more at their numbers and see if anything interesting shows up. Using Queen City Hoops' player swapper thing as an arbitrary starting point one unexpected prediction has already emerged: the Wolves would be -1.6 wins worse with Curry this year, while the Warriors would be +3 wins better if they had Flynn. That is definitely not what I was expecting, so what gives?

Star-divide

Looking at their numbers, two main distinctions stand out between the two players: scoring style and backcourt mates, and I think we would be remiss in our discussions about Flynn/Curry if we didn't keep these under consideration.

 

Consider these numbers:

Jonny Flynn: 70% of attempts are jumpshots, and only 24% of FGAs are assisted on.

Steph Curry: 80% of attempts are jumpshots, with 46% of his FGAs assisted on.

In other words, both players are what we thought they were (to quote The Sheriff) - Curry's a jumpshooter who is more reliant on others to generate his open looks, whereas Flynn is more of a driver who is more dependent on his first step (or simply puts his blinders on and calls his own number). Furthermore, if you look at Hoopdata's shot location info, we find that across the board (from all distances from the hoop) Curry has greater assisted fga numbers than Flynn, and in some cases significantly so. To me this suggests two things, and I think it is reasonable to assume that it is a combination of the two (which I'll get into more a bit later): one, that Curry plays with better passers; and two, Curry is better at this point at playing within the system (he allows the shots to come to him vs. Flynn forcing his own shots).

Besides the difference between the number of field goals assisted on, one other difference stands out between the two players. Adjusted per 36 minutes, Curry attempts just over half of his within the first 10 seconds of the shot clock or the last few seconds, and just under half of his shots in the meat of the shot clock (11-20 seconds in). Flynn, on the other hand, attempts far more shots at the end of the shot clock as Curry (around .6 more FGA per 36 minutes more than Curry in the final seconds). Again, the picture that emerges is one of Curry as a rotational target of the offense and Flynn as either a one man initiator early in the clock or a one man finisher late in the clock.

 

So what about their back court teammates? The longer that I've looked at and considered these stats, the more I am convinced that it can't be underestimated the impact of playing with a playmaker of Ellis' caliber has on Curry's role and play this year. Curry has played a huge number of minutes next to Ellis, usually as the point guard to Ellis' SG. Ellis, as we all know, loves to shoot (to the tune of an astounding 19.2 FGA per 36!), and the numbers show that he's comfortable taking it to the hoop, taking jump shots, attempting threes (a career high in 3PA's this year) - and all throughout the shot clock. The point, as far as this post is concerned, is that Ellis represents more than just a dynamic offensive element for Curry's passes (and for creating space for other guys on the floor as well). Curry, operating within the offense as he does, is the perfect jumpshooting outlet/safety valve for Ellis' drives or double team outlet passes.

Curry and Ellis lead the Warriors in assist rate (amongst players with significant PT) at 22.6 and 21.6.

Flynn, on the other hand, has no Ellis to play against. The closest he has is Brewer, but Brewer is far worse as a passer and at setting up guys to score. Consider that 65% of Brewer's FGs are assisted on - and watching him play it's becoming clearer and clearer that Brewer's a finisher, not a creator. The assist rate leaders for the Wolves are Flynn at 24.5 and Sessions at 23.6, with Brewer trailing far behind at 12.0.

One begins to wonder, then, what effect playing next to Sessions might have on Flynn. They would form an odd backcourt - two guards who's preference is taking it strong to the hoop. But if you were to allow Ramon to play to his strengths of driving, drawing fouls, and organizing the offense with Flynn as the followup safety valve (Flynn's actually developing into a pretty decent shooter in addition to his strong at the rim game) and playmaking compliment - well, it might actually be kind of interesting. Unfortunately for Flynn, however, he rarely gets the chance to play with someone who can set him up, especially since Love has started coming off the bench.

The last tidbit that I'll throw out there as the final piece context to consider for this little comparison between Flynn and Curry is each team's relationship with its big men. We attempt nearly 42 FGAs per game between our PF and C positions (with our 4/5 extraordinaires Love and Al), whereas Golden State is far more dependent on its SF and PF (almost 42 FGA - led in no small part by 3/4 Corey Maggette). In other words, our team and our offensive flow is centered around a couple of guys down low (incidentally our best players), whereas the Warrior's offense is centered around their two best players who happen to be 1/2's in Curry and Ellis, along with some capable 3/4's in Maggette and Morrow. Biedrins and Randolph at the 4/5 are role players at best for them, just as Wilkins and Gomes are role players at the 3/4 for us.

0 recs  |  Comment 11 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Nice analysis

I’m too tired to comment more, but it looks like Flynn is not quite so bad…just limit those terrible looking turnovers!

by pablo85 on Mar 5, 2010 10:47 PM CST reply actions  

Logical error

Because Curry has more assisted FG does not mean he is more dependent on getting assists to get his shots. It certainly means that the GSW offense runs more without the ball in his hands so that he can receive passes to take shots. In watching Curry, I don’t see him having a problem in getting his shot.

by dropstep on Mar 5, 2010 10:52 PM CST reply actions  

In college...

The guy consistently created his own shot while double(triple?)-covered. It should not be a surprise that he can create offense at the NBA level.

by vjl110 on Mar 6, 2010 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Hard to tell

just by looking at the numbers (which is all that I had available). What I take from them, and I think is a reasonable conclusion, is that Curry plays more within GS’ system than Flynn does. What is hard to divine is what some of the mitigating factors for that might be – simply innate talent/ability? Surrounding cast? Offensive style?

I guess personally I just have difficulty in believing that Curry (with no plus NBA size, length, or athleticism attributes) can create his own shot consistently at the NBA level without guys like Monta or Maggette next to him. Think about that for a second – he plays with two of the best pure scorers in the game, guys that night in and night out put up points. Suggesting that double and triple teams from teams such as Elon, Samford, Furman, and Western Carolina represent anything near NBA caliber defense is just plain not true. It’s like suggesting Devean George will be a great offensive player because consistent triple teams in the MIAC couldn’t slow him down. I’m sorry, but three dudes from St. Olaf have no chance against an NBA caliber player.

So, I agree that logically Curry’s higher percentage of FGs assisted on doesn’t equate to him not being able to get his own shot, but it certainly suggests a greater dependency or tendency on relying on other/the system for his open looks, especially when compared to Flynn. Furthermore, I do think Curry’s numbers must be understood in the context of playing next to two dominant scorers, one of whom (Ellis) has demonstrated at least average to above average NBA ability to generate for others. It just so happens that in this case Curry is arguably, though not conclusively (using this data), feeding Ellis and Maggette the ball more often. My take on it, or rather my open question, is whether or not Flynn is disadvantaged by his system and by the fact that Al (Flynn’s dominant scorer to feed) isn’t producing the same as Ellis and is being asked to pass more in the Triangle.

To be clear I’m not trying to excuse Flynn for his production in comparison to Curry, but rather trying to understand a player swap tool’s (which is thought highly enough of to be referred to on the TrueHoop blog, FWIW) prediction that we’d be on the downside of losing Flynn and adding Curry. The only thing that comes to mind ultimately is that Curry’s biggest talent is making the best of whatever situation he’s in but ultimately being dependent on others because he’s not super fast, can’t jump super high, doesn’t have an insane wingspan or strength. The dude’s a plus jumpshooter, a Wally Z for the PG crowd. Can be real good, but no better than a number 2 option at best, and most likely a very high caliber number three. Jonny, on the other hand, has plus athleticism and strength – but is undersized from a height but not necessarily wingspan perspective (6’ 3.5" for Curry, 6’ 4" for Flynn) but appears to lack the insight into capitalizing on the opportunities the system and players around him create for him, at least so far. The upside for Flynn is that he learns how to maximize his abilities within the system, both offensively and defensively, and thus becomes the kind of player who’s physical gifts enable him to become more than a super third option. The downside is that Curry’s floor will most likely always be higher than Flynn’s, even if Curry’s ceiling will always be lower.

Growing my own "Darko-stache" since last Monday.

by biggity2bit on Mar 8, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice theory

I think it also hurts that Flynn seems to like to drive, but Jefferson occupies the middle so that takes away space for Flynn. The flip side is Curry might thrive in that system.

I will probably get ripped for this comment, but I think ultimately these two guys are both nothing better than 6th men on a contending team. As a starter on a poor team, Curry is probably the better fit (and he has found the perfect home).

by Rumblebee on Mar 6, 2010 1:59 PM CST reply actions  

A quick counterpoint

Yes, Curry probably has better teammates. But I think you’re missing a few things. It’s not Flynn over Curry which gets people worked up, but rather Rubio+Flynn over Rubio+Curry. I think Rubio and Curry were almost made to play together. I don’t see Flynn meshing with Rubio – neither is a great outside threat, both are slashers, etc. In addition, Curry will probably be a better defender, being 2-3 inches taller and better built.

by KMils on Mar 6, 2010 3:31 PM CST reply actions  

I think that Rubio and Turner

are almost made to play with each other. Can you imagine the starting Rubio-Turner backcourt with Flynn as the sixth man? My question is if the wolves end up with turner, who would we rather have coming off the bench…flynn or curry?

A Darko Fan since 2010!

by TheEvilProfessor on Mar 6, 2010 8:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Curry.

Curry and Turner also seem like a match made in heaven.

by LoveTo on Mar 8, 2010 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Curry and Turner

match up much better than Flynn and Turner. That’s for sure. Although, with Turner, I think Flynn would spend much more time shooting threes off a dribble drive pass from Turner with an occasional hesitation drive into the lane after receiving the pass. It would really depend on the frountcourt as to Flynn’s effectiveness.

A Darko Fan since 2010!

by TheEvilProfessor on Mar 9, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Curry!

Better D, better shooting, and equivalent play making.

by gill0137 on Mar 8, 2010 12:05 PM CST reply actions  

I'm not throwing Flynn under the bus until at least this point next season

If he’s still the same, then that’s that. Curry clearly looks like a better player now and into the future, but Flynn could be more than most people think.

by John Wall on Mar 11, 2010 5:35 PM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Canis Hoopus is straight T-Wolves straight from Minnesota.
Start posting about the Timberwolves »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Screen_shot_2010-08-17_at_4
What to watch for: a list to cobble up.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Exhibition vs Lakers at the O2 in London
Small
Like I Said Wicky Wubio Sucks
Dscn1266_small
1992 Dream Team vs. 2008 Redeem Team
Fletch_small
New nickname for Kevin Love
01f_small
spain/greece
01f_small
5 Easy Pieces
White_small
30 Things I'm Looking Forward to This Season
Small
My Letter to Trey Kerby from Yahoo!'s Ball Don't Lie Blog
Best_man_small
Pieces to Build With

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Canis Hoopus Twitter

    follow me on Twitter

    Hoopus Features

    Salary Cap Info

    Draft Info

    Player Movement Flow Charts

    EuroWatch

    Stats

    Draft Boards

    Former Tag Lines:

    • In desperate need of an epic dose of basketball Viagra
    • Your source of radical left wing politics cleverly disguised as basketball fandom
    • Palin-Free since before statehood
    • The world's leading exporter of small area quickness
    • Sorry…I have no idea who is Joe Mauer
    • Home of the Peja deep douche
    • Vote McGrady!
    • Bork, bork, bork, bork, bork
    • Wir Sind Darko
    • Weird, unhealthy Darko mania
    • les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas
    • Basketball success makes character issues forgivable 
    • Building the Boogie Bandwagon
    • Building the Dream....One Power Forward At A Time

    Hoopus Recipe Book

    Let's Settle This:

    Misc:

    Self-Promotion

    BallHype Sports Blog Rankings

    SPONSORS

    SBNation.com Recent Stories

    LAS VEGAS - JULY 24:  Chauncey Billups #4 and Jeff Green #12 of the 2010 USA Basketball Men's National Team try to stop Kevin Durant #5 of the 2010 USA Basketball Men's National Team during a USA Basketball showcase at the Thomas & Mack Center on July 24 2010 in Las Vegas Nevada.  (Photo by Ethan Miller/Getty Images) +4 updates

    FIBA World Championship 2010: Team USA Blows Out Angola, Advances To Quarterfinals

    PHOENIX - SEPTEMBER 05:  Sue Bird #10 of the Seattle Storm puts up a shot against the Phoenix Mercury in Game Two of the Western Conference Finals during the 2010 WNBA Playoffs at US Airways Center on September 5 2010 in Phoenix Arizona.  NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that by downloading and or using this photograph User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement.  (Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images) +1 updates

    Bird's Game-Winner Sends Seattle Storm Into WNBA Finals

    Partizan Belgrade forward Strahinja Milosevic, left, looks to take a shot as Phoenix Suns forward Jared Dudley, right, defends in the third quarter of an NBA exhibition game Tuesday, Oct. 6, 2009, in Phoenix. The Suns won 111-80. (AP Photo/Paul Connors) link

    Jared Dudley Talks About Expectations For Suns, His Role And Contract (And Bobbleheads)

    More from SBNation.com >


    Managers

    Dr wyn

    Img_2487_small Stop-n-Pop