Well folks, that about does it
by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 15, 2010 8:00 AM CDT
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PrintIn lieu of a game wrap (which would only be notable for the fact that Charlie Villanueva understands the importance of having a good time entertaining the fans and is our new favorite player), I thought it would be a good opportunity to begin our series of posts that wrap up the season. In this post, we'll review our season preview and take the 30,000 foot view of this particular vintage of Los Wolves.
One of the things that stands out about the season preview post is this quote:
Best of all, Kahn has made the Wolves interesting again. The process has been full of goofy quotes, funny interviews, nearly weekly roster moves, and the entire Ricky Rubio saga, but the bottom line for Kahn and the Wolves is the results:
- Their core is good and tremendously young.
- They have drafted the 2 best Euros in the past 2 drafts and stashed them overseas.
- They have 3 likely 1st round picks in the 2010 draft.
- They will have in the neighborhood of $15 million below the cap in 2010 free agency.
- Chances are, they now have a functional point guard on their roster.
This thing is clearly still a work in progress (the team needs help on the wing and the Rubio situation still needs to be resolved one way or another) but it is also clearly pointed in the right direction.
Is that the big take-away from this season? The new POBO was willing to stand directly in the line of fire, say interesting things, and amass as many resources as possible heading into the 2010 off-season. If Kevin McHale were still at the helm of this franchise, I think a 15-win season would have been the last straw for many, many, many fans no matter how well the lotto balls land in May. Landing a top pick, using the cap space to take a run at a young restricted free agent, and/or using it in a mid-season unbalanced trade...that's about as good as it could possibly get for the Wolves and I think Kahn gets this.
Rebounding. Rebounding. Rebounding, and more rebounding. Kevin Love is one of the league's top 3 rebounders, Al Jefferson's game is built to be close to the bucket and he collects a net positive on the offensive boards, and Corey Brewer can hold his own at either the 2 or 3. If there is a player from last year's squad to get a little chippy about his departure, it is Mike Miller. Despite not shooting the damn ball, Miller was a verysolid defensive rebounder and it will take a well above average effort from Pavlovic, Brewer, and Gomes to match Miller's efforts on the glass at the 2/3.
Looking at the lineups from the two years, it's kind of easy to see where Miller/Gomes > Gomes/Brewer in terms of rebounding at the 2/3:
Net Production by Position
| -0.5 | -.061 | -1.5 | 0% | -1.9 | -0.7 | -0.2 | -0.0 | -1.1 | -3.8 | -7.0 | |
| 0.1 | -.034 | -0.1 | 4% | 0.1 | -0.3 | -0.2 | -0.0 | -0.3 | -1.1 | -2.4 | |
| -3.5 | +.001 | -2.5 | -1% | 0.9 | 0.5 | -0.5 | 0.1 | -0.8 | -5.5 | -4.2 | |
| 0.3 | -.016 | -0.3 | 8% | -0.2 | 0.3 | -0.6 | -0.9 | -0.3 | -0.5 | -2.3 | |
| 6.1 | -.057 | 2.1 | 4% | 1.8 | -0.9 | 0.2 | -1.1 | 0.8 | 6.0 | +2.4 |
Net Production by Position
| 1.0 | -.040 | 1.4 | 13% | -0.1 | -3.2 | -0.8 | -0.2 | 0.9 | 0.5 | -3.6 | |
| 0.1 | -.057 | -0.8 | 0% | 0.1 | -1.9 | -0.6 | 0.0 | -0.8 | -2.6 | -5.3 | |
| -4.2 | -.050 | -1.9 | -7% | 0.0 | -0.7 | -0.1 | -0.2 | -0.7 | -7.6 | -6.5 | |
| -0.1 | -.020 | 0.6 | 3% | 1.5 | 0.3 | -0.1 | -0.5 | 0.6 | -0.3 | +0.8 | |
| 2.8 | -.069 | 0.1 | -4% | -1.8 | -0.5 | -0.2 | -0.8 | -0.3 | 0.7 | -3.4 |
In theory, the Wolves should also be a very good free throw shooting team this season. Last year Ramon Sessions had the 25th best FT/FG rate in the league at 36. Kevin Love was 18th at 39. Big Al was all the way down at 154 with 19. By all accounts in college, summer league, and his small sample of preseason games, Jonny Flynn has all the makings of a high-contact guard who will draw a lot of fouls in an up-tempo system. Last year the Wolves had one fairly legit threat of getting to the line at a high rate: Kevin Love. This year they have 3 players who should draw a ton of contact with one guy (Jefferson) who will have a modest rate but a high volume due to his number of touches.
Defense, wing play, turnovers, and outside shooting. I don't really know if there is a good way to break this down in much greater detail but the Wolves are still going to have problems on defense; their 2 and 3 will be manned by a rotation of Corey Brewer, Wayne Ellington, Sasha Pavlovic, and Ryan Gomes, and their backcourt will be led by 2 point guards who will be in their first year with the team. David Kahn has been pretty frontal in his assessment that Gomes and Brewer are both in put up or shut up years. Pavlovic is on a 1-year contract. Nothing is promised or owed to any of these players and if they can't figure it out this year, I think it is becoming more and more obvious that when the Wolves do cash in their draft/free agency chips, it will be for a wing player. At media day and during camp both Gomes and Brewer said enough to make everyone well aware of the fact that they too know the score.
| 35% | .538 | 49% | 30.9 | 36% | .552 | 55% | 31.9 | ||
| 25% | .449 | 59% | 18.3 | 26% | .511 | 58% | 20.9 | ||
| 25% | .483 | 65% | 20.0 | 25% | .497 | 60% | 19.5 | ||
| 15% | .403 | 58% | 10.2 | 14% | .455 | 55% | 10.1 | ||
09/10:
Shot Clock Usage
| 40% | .530 | 47% | 36.0 | 38% | .590 | 59% | 38.3 | ||
| 26% | .455 | 56% | 20.3 | 26% | .496 | 68% | 21.7 | ||
| 22% | .443 | 56% | 16.7 | 24% | .484 | 67% | 19.4 | ||
| 11% | .405 | 60% | 7.8 | 13% | .442 | 62% | 9.5 | ||
3- Free throw neutrality (or more). They came close on this one. Really close. (See above.)
Big question for the year:
Did David Kahn screw the pooch on draft night?
Let me begin by giving a simple yes or no: No. However, the (excellent) addition of Ramon Sessions begs the question of whether or not the Wolves could have walked away from the Draft with Rubio and, say, Demar DeRozan instead of Jonny Flynn. Sure, it would have been a big bet to wait out for Sessions, and who knows what would have happened with Sessions' negotiations if Rubio stayed in Europe and Flynn wasn't sitting there as a sure replacement, but..well, it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that the Wolves had two big first rounders and a free agent signing over the summer and they were all at the same position. Yes, it's at a position that has killed the Wolves since the days of Sam Cassell but isn't there a nagging little thought in the back of your head that is whispering "it could have been done better?" I think Kahn has done a terrific job but it will ultimately depend on which point guard(s) stick around in 2-3 years and how much he can get with the one (or two) that gets sent away. Will that equation end up being more valuable than the previously mentioned Rubio/DeRozan/Sessions combo? Who knows?
I cannot say it enough: The 2009 Draft will 150% depend on which point guard is around in 2-3 years and what the team was able to do with the left-overs. Kahn is all-in on Rubio. If Rubio comes over and plays and is a good player, and if Flynn is able to accept a role as a 6th man spark plug off the bench, then the draft could be a huge success. If Rubio doesn't come, and if Flynn turns out to be a 6th man spark plug as a starter...well, then we're talking miserable failure. Ultimately, Kahn gets an optimistic "incomplete" from me for the following reason: He understands the superstar rule. You need a great player to win in the NBA and, more often than not, you need to luck your way into one. This team has been completely awful this year (it has a legit argument for the worst team in franchise history...which is, again, a subject for another wrap-up post), but the take-away is this: They maintained cap space, 3 1st rounders, and 2 stashed Euros for a big off season. They didn't lose the Clipper pick. They will have a legit crack at John Wall. They can be the biggest players in the draft. The caveat here is that this is the last year where I'm buying this approach to team building. I'm not going to stick around for another year of hoping for a top pick and some magical cap space. It's off to Thunderville if they hit next year's trade deadline with a ton of cap space, no new significant additions, and nothing more than a rehash of The Blueprint 2.0, I'm done. That's not a threat. It's just someone who is tired of seeing significant assets go to waste. From buying out Theo Ratliff to not making any moves this year at the trade deadline to ticket pitch after ticket pitch laced with talk about millions of cap dollars, I'm going to take one more try at kicking the ball away from Lucy's hold.
Perhaps the most embarrassing part of the season preview is this:
Projected finish: 31-51
Ouch.
Some of the better comments from our readers:
The Twolves finished 24-58 last year. Based on what I have seen in persona and on TV so far, I voted 16-20. I based this on:
1 – Our 4 best players really play just 2 positions (Flynn, Sessions, Love and Al). The ability to play all 4 at the same time is very questionable (Al can’t defend the post, Rambis seems very reluctant to play Flynn and Sessions together – I assume because of what he sees in practice).
2 – No outside shooting. Most critical need last year was to find players who could space the floor for Big Al. Our decent, though sometime madding inconsistent, shooters (Foye, Miller and dare I say McCants) are being replaced by …………….. Corey Brewer and Wayne Ellington! Before anyone starts with the Pavlovic comments, you need to consider his PER of 7.38 and 8.65 the last 2 years, playing with the Cavs – a team with a Super Star who draws tons of double teams and was not reluctant to kick the ball. If Sasha was an effective "spacer" (like he was in 2007 – his only season with a double digit PER by the way), he would still be in Cleveland. Does anyone believe that this group is an upgrade that will keep defenses from sagging on Al?
3 – A team filled with players that possess below average athletic ability. I was far more favorable on McHale’s performance as GM than most around here. But the 1 criticism that I had was McHale’s stubbornness in always favoring/more highly valuing a players basketball skills/ IQ over their athleticism. I know – he played on Celtics teams that won championships with high basketball IQ and skills guys with lower athleticism (Parrish, Bird, Ange, himself) but this is not the 1980’s. It does not work that way today. It has left us with a roster of guys that know how to play, but without the athleticism to use the knowledge. Even though he radically turned over roster, Kahn added only 1 player (Sessions) through FA and 1 player (Flynn) through the draft with above average athleticism. On most nights, we will match up with equal/better athletes at only 2 of the 5 starting positions. Of our top 4 reserves, only 1 (Sessions) will likely have a favorable athleticism match up. Being this badly outmatched athletically is not going to lead to more victories.
4 – Growing pains for our coaching staff as they install a new system, recovery from injury (Al, Brewer) plus now Love’s injury, a rookie PG, and a cast of new players as they learn each others game is not going to result in a fast start. In our 1st 17 games (Oct/Nov), I don’t see us being favored in more than 4 games (New Jersey, Milwaukee, Phoenix at home, Memphis on the road) Yep – I expect us not even to be favored against the Clippers. If we start 4-13, we would need to finish 26-39 (2 out of every 5) to get to 30 victories. I don’t see it since our most favorable schedule is not until mid Jan through end of Feb – by then – I expect that we may see even more roster turnover.
I certainly hope that we win more. I keep my fingers crossed that Kahn will use all those assets for something better next year. But I am also expecting to watch some pretty crappy basketball this year.
1. Brewer is better than Gomes. I’m not really even debating this one.
2. In fact- Brewer might currently be the 3rd best player on the team behind Al and Ramon Sessions. You could make the Flynn argument- but he hasn’t exactly shown himself to be under control at the Point- saying nothing about Brewer’s D.
3. My point isn’t that Corey Brewer is a great player it’s rather they’re are still some serious talent issues on this club.
4. I actually do think the D should be quite a bit better due to better wing defenders (Although this is off-set by Potentially Historically Awful Shooting)
5. My dream for this season is still to beat the Trailblazers. Although Nov.11 isn’t looking likely.
- Which is the big problem: offense or defense?
- Stats overview.
- Is this the worst team in franchise history?
- Individual player grades.
- A Ricky Rubio FAQ.
- Hoopus Draft Board.
- A look at free agents and possible lopsided trades.
- A look at what could change over the summer.
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Comments
I'm so glad that the season is finally over.
It gives me something to be hopeful about with the Wolves again. Changes.
- “Which is the big problem: offense or defense?”
I can write this one for you. Here goes… YES.
by Krotz the Wall on Apr 15, 2010 8:42 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well done.
It feels a little like performing an autopsy.
One item that received relatively little coverage here during the year and was touched upon by Rambis at one of the last press conferences: this team never became a “team.” They were polite to each other, a few high-fives and chest bumps here and there (thank you Brian Cardinal), but they never appeared to be having a whole lot of fun playing, or playing together. The was even less enjoyment and entertainment for the fans who sat through this dreck.
Now, it’s obviously difficult to have an enjoyable season on your way to the tenth-worst record in NBA history. I’m not sure how you just create it—it probably has to come organically from the players and coaching staff. But clearly there is no leadership on or off the court that says, “Work hard, have fun.” Sadly, neither the effort nor the enthusiasm was evident even well before we knew how this season might end.
Regardless of who stays and who gets shipped out, it will be a long time before they can really say they are a “team”—and maybe it won’t happen. But I hope they attempt to foster this culture when deciding which new players to add to the roster.
A good place to start
A team needs to know who its leaders and best players are. Its bench players need to be happy with, and understanding of that role. The Wolves’ best player in recent years was Al Jefferson — and he moved around like a grandpa, this year, all the way to the final game, last night. Kevin Love had some good reasons to think he was this team’s best player, and he spent a lot of important minutes riding the pine. That creates divisions and unrest. All tanking theories aside, the treatment of Love could not have been good for this team.
They need a John Wall or Evan Turner, a healthy Al Jefferson or a Kevin Love who is incorporated into the team by the coaches, and they also need some real veteran leadership, hopefully at low salaries. Guys to show John Wall how to prepare like a professional prepares. And for Ricky Rubio, I just hope that a coherent offense is in place with enough talent for his passing to make a difference. I don’t expect him to be the type of player to thrive despite crappy talent around him.
The foundation needs to be in place before they can start to take strides toward becoming a competitive team. That’s why teams like OKC and Portland didn’t take off until Durant and Roy came in and started to emerge as their team’s leaders and best players. Until we get that guy, there’s not much you can do. You can be a competitive team (see Rockets, Houston) without a star in the lineup, but doing so requires defined roles and solid veteran players who know how to play and defend. In other words, it ain’t happening with a group of undisciplined, inexperienced players playing under a new coach.
Cross your fingers that we get a #1 guy in this draft, because this rebuild is going to take longer than anyone wants to think it is if we don’t. Unless Ricky comes over and blows up, we’re going to be stuck on the mediocrity treadmill for a long time if we come out of this draft with a guy like Aminu or Wes Johnson instead of Turner/Wall.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Yes...
I agree that they need the foundational pieces, and this draft is huge. But, I don’t necessarily agree on the “stuck in mediocrity” part, if we don’t get Wall or Turner. I think we’ll be stuck in the cellar of the league for another year — perhaps with 5-10 more wins, with Harrison Barnes in mind as the next “Wall or Turner.”
If we land Wall or Turner, I think someone like Rudy Gay or Danny Granger will be aggressively pursued, and we will try to win as many games as possible next year.
My thinking is that if we come up with someone like Wes Johnson who is probably not going to be a #1 option, then we’re stuck with something like:
Rubio
Brewer
Johnson
Love
Jefferson
And that lineup isn’t competing for much of anything unless 1) Rubio is the next Jason Kidd, 2) someone unexpected blows up or 3) we get really lucky in the next draft. I’d just rather not have another year of 3) with total suckage leading up to pinning all our hopes on the draft, so I just really hope they can get that guy this year.. If we land a stud this year, we can start laying the groundwork for a successful team. If not, then we basically have to keep tanking until we get lucky if we ever want to seriously compete.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I hope that, too
but if we get the 3-5 Pick, and can’t move up to 1 or 2, it seems like the options are to stay the course with Flynn-Love-Jefferson-(Favors/Cousins/Johnson) and try again next lottery, when we’ll also add Rubio, or to panic, trade away Love or Jefferson for someone like Luol Deng, win 32 games next year, draft another Foye/Brewer-caliber player in the lottery, and be “stuck in mediocrity.”
I think this lottery will determine the fate of next season, and potentially the fate of the franchise for the next half-dozen years.
Or...
We’ll see just what Kahn is made of this time around. If we get a pick in the 3, 4, or 5 spot, it’ll be up even more necessary for Kahn to parlay all his assets into reshaping the team. I tend to believe that he’ll hang on to the rights of Rubio, but I would imagine that nearly anyone else would be in play. Kahn is sticking with his trade deadline next season as his window of opportunity (with Rubio coming next summer) to turn the Wolves assets (cap space, prospects, draft selections, contracts, players, rights). I don’t know if he can sell another… wait for next draft and hope.
Of course, if the Wolves don’t get Wall/Turner, I just don’t know how much leverage the Wolves will have. They have some great assets, but other teams will know that they are desperate.
by Krotz the Wall on Apr 16, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Picks
How did the Utah and Charlotte picks shake out?
by Mac of the MIAC on Apr 15, 2010 8:45 AM CDT reply actions
Yes Please
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Apr 15, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Charlotte pick is 16
Utah pick is somewhere between 23-25; I guess they will coinflip for the exact spot
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 15, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully it'll be
2,16,24
S&P,
Thanks for some positive energy in your write-up. These boards have turned pretty spiteful. Perhaps now that the season is over everyone will settle down. Eric can go back to glass half empty as opposed to glass shattered :) Oddly, I’ve missed KLJs unbridled optimism this last month… such are the blogs about a 15-67 ballclub.
Thanks for an interesting year everyone!
-DR_JPK
The picks worked out about as well as possible.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Apr 15, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Primer on Statistics
After reading this article (very informative, indeed), I could use a primer/tutorial on statistics. My questions are the following:
1. How does one compute PER, eFG%, iFG, OE, DE, and SRS?
2. What is the basis of Ortg and Drtg?
3. How are the net production values computed? I suspect FGA represents Field Goals Attempted. However, the values provided are not per game values but deltas of some sort.
I didn't watch the whole game...
And thank God I didn’t. Could someone tell me why Love didn’t play in the 4th quarter?
I wish I could add more to the conversation about this team. It’s hard for me not to resort to “Rambis sucks”.
Curry
Curry’s season finale: 42 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists. 12-12 from the FT line.
by Mac of the MIAC on Apr 15, 2010 10:30 AM CDT reply actions
Stop it
I cannot handle more Curry updates – I was getting them every day from my friends via cell/text/e-mail – Kahn best hope either Johhny figures it all out (doubtful) or Rubio comes over and is at least not a turn-over machine – or this past draft was an absolute turd.
Draft should have been easy – take Curry (sure thing), keep Lawson, wait for Rubio, and go into 2010-2011 with optimism…rather than, well, what we have.
What’s interesting though, is that the above season preview was wondering if DeRozan should have been the pick. I’d take a 6th man in Flynn over DeRozan.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Apr 15, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
"Did David Kahn screw the pooch on draft night?"
Having seen Steph Curry for a whole season and how perfect he would fit into this horrible triangle offense, my answer is a definite YES! It’s been said a million times but why the coach wasn’t fired ASAP so that you knew what kind of system you would be running is still baffling. A large portion of the blame lies on Taylor and Moor for the delayed hiring of Kahn but drafting without a system in place was absurd as well.
"fired"-->"hired"
A natural slip, after all. ;-)
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
They both work actually
If Kahn hadn’t gone on his tour of Twin Cities dining establishments with McHale (when it was obvious what the outcome was going to be), he could have used those that time (~two weeks) towards a coaching search.
He'd have been out a pork chop or two, though.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Or better draft prep
That was a weird episode. I wonder if Kahn got the impression from Taylor that if he was going to let McHale go it had to be after some careful consideration and discussion. “Let him down easy, David, he’s always been such a swell guy…”
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 15, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
A waste of time -- 2009-2010
The wolves made 0 significant strides as a whole this year. The team has no cornerstones or don’t know if they any cornerstones. For example, who knows how good Love will be given how they played him? If he would have gotten the Flynn treatment — play no matter how bad a streak he’s on — we might know.
Position by Position —
PG – Hoping on Rubio. Flynn good as 6th, agreed. Sessions a good backup.
SG – Ellington’s a good backup. Everyone else gone.
SF – Brewer’s a good backup. Gomes probably gone and also backup quality.
PF – Love or Jefferson. Love a great rebounder, can shoot, but can he defend? Is he a go-to player to stop a run? No. Jefferson looked hobbled much of the year. Defense awful.
C – Darko could start to let else fill holes elsewhere. But, he’s not top tier. Hollins, no.
We only learned that we (still) have far to go.
Strides this year
1.) Bought Rubio for a year without Miller/Foye (since we can resign them just as easy this summer as if he had them)
2.) Earned (although paid dearly) for the second best chance at Wall/Turner
Neither of which have been realized. Ugh.
by Cedarpenguin on Apr 15, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Love is overrated as a shooter
Yes, he made a few 3-pointers this year, but his mid-range jumpshot is below average compared to most other pure PFs in the league. He was billed as a good shooter coming out of college. I just haven’t seen it.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
This has been the most disappointing aspect
He can’t be a 15-20 ppg scorer if he can’t make those shots every game.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 16, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Kevin Love
Is it just me or is anybody else confused by the treatment of Kevin Love. Why in the world does Rambis give Love short minutes, just 18 minutes last night ( there were many more games like this after Love was removed as a starter. In todays paper, Rambis alludes to Love not working hard as the reason for Love’s lack of minutes. What a joke. First of all, you don’t get 10 rebounds in 18 minutes by not working hard. Rebounds are all about hard work. For Love to be one of the top rebounders in the game screams hard worker. If players are to get short minutes for not working hard, Jefferson should be the poster boy. Why is Rambis picking on Love and not Jefferson? When I watch these two play defense, ( it is not pretty ), Love gives more effort than Jefferson. Don’t get me wrong, Love needs to upgrade his defense, I am just saying the effort is better than Jefferson’s.
This is a very dangerous game Con and Rambo ( my new nicknames for the slick salesman and over-arrogant coach ) to be playing, if it continues, we will lose one of the very few legitimate NBA players we have on this team. This team needs to reward hard work and production, not punish it.
FYI, I was at the Hoopus night meeting with Con. Although it was very nice of Con and the Timberwolves to give us the opportunity to listen to Con speak ( sell ), I was left with a sinking feeling we were being snookered by a very slick salesman that may very well not know what he is doing.
The start of the McHale type mistakes by Con was drafting Flynn. We could have and should have done much better ( Curry? ). Does anybody else remember Con on draft night stating that Flynn showed Con enough to make him believe he will be one of the better on the ball defenders in the NBA. Now Con says that we should not expect much from Flynn in this area because Syracuse plays that 2-3 Zone. What a bunch of crock.
I am afraid we are in for another ugly 10 years with this new crew ( Con and Rambo ).
Hope not, what say you.
Just to point out
that it is possible to cheat to get rebounds. Sagging off your man on defense to get closer to a rebounding position isn’t always in your teams best interests. Agreed on the overall defensive effort of Love vs. Jefferson. I am amazed at how disappointed I still get when watching Al play D.
I am not even sure if it is necessaryily Al’s effort or if it is just his reaction time. Ugh.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 15, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Reaction Time is a big part...
As much as I want my dog to catch a frisbee, she just can’t catch the damn frisbee. Sometimes she doesn’t even move before it hits her face.
Al is much the same way.
by Blakeley on Apr 15, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
IF Al had good defensive instincts and was capable of rotating correctly, he could be a very solid defender. We’ve seen his shot-blocking prowess in action, and he’s pretty strong with nice length. The problem is his instincts are terrible, which compounds the problem of his already middling footspeed. If you could put Brewer’s motor and innate defensive instincts into Al, I think you’d have a great player, but unfortunately the only thing that comes naturally to him on that side of the floor is the ability to always, without fail, be facing the wrong direction when someone is driving to the hoop. It’s unfortunate, really.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I have a Newfoundland.
She moves her eyes when the frisbee sails over. Sometimes.
She doesn’t get frustrated and down on herself, though. Which for my money, is happening with both Al and Love defensively, but much more dramatically with the former. That is indeed where the different treatment of the two players makes no sense at all, given the explanations we’re hearing.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
by feral on Apr 15, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is not an excuse
but when we are in games and Al is motivated, I have seen him play pretty good D. So if we can get a better team around him to keep him motivated, I bet his D will improve. Again, not an excuse, just how I see it. If he is still around in a couple years I am hoping we acquire a vet who will take the reigns of this team from a leadership standpoint and those types of things will be nipped in the bud.
Temporary Bobcats Fan - Actively rooting against: MIA, CHI, MIL, TOR
Good points...
And like CV said above, how come Love didn’t get the Flynn treatment? They’re the same age. IT DON’T MAKE NO SENSE.
No way this lasts 10 years. Rambis may at least be here 3 years, but I believe Kahn only has a 2 year contract. Rob Moor, Chris Wright, and Glen Taylor all have said that they need to win next year. If Kahn for example trades Kevin Love who then becomes a borderline all-star somewhere else, he could very well be out next year.
Do they show the same lack of effort or penchant to bitch about calls?
The complaining about calls is the main difference I see. And making bad decisions is different than not giving full effort. Kahn had a 3-year deal and Rambis a 4-year deal.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 15, 2010 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Given the choice
I would ship out Rambo. Does not appear to be a coach who molds things around the talents of his players. Jonny should have been pickin’ and rollin’ and dishin’ with Love. Wellington should have started at the 2 with Brew at the 3 for the last half of the season. Sessions should have been given the total green light, as he must have had in Milwaukee.
Temporary Bobcats Fan - Actively rooting against: MIA, CHI, MIL, TOR
This could prove to be the real test of Taylor's willingness to spend money
If the Wolves are a team of square pegs again next season and Rambis continues to try and pound them into triangular holes, something has got to give. At some point, you have to be serious about maximizing what you have. Rambis is going to have to be a bit more flexible and build a scheme suited to strengths of the players he actually has.
It's weird because
I’ve heard Rambis say that “we don’t run the triangle as much as people think”, but also says the point guards “are still learning the system”. Well which is it? I tend to think they run it A LOT. Because if they didn’t, Jonny would have had a better year. There has never been a superstar PG in a triangle offense in the history of the stinkin’ offense. I bet Wall is dreading getting picked by the wolves for that reason alone.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
no
They do (did) run a fair amount of pick and roll. Jonny’s not actually very good at it, despite the people who trot the system to excuse his poor play.
15 wins
A lot of it was (lack of) talent. But, the square peg into triangular hole played a huge part. What are they going to do? Trade Flynn cause he can’t do the triangle? Will they adjust to the skills of Wall if they get him or does he have to triangle to? They can pick amongst triangle-friendly players in FA and later in the Draft. But, will this play a role in a Turner vs. Wall decision?
by ChicagoViking on Apr 15, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Unfortunately
I think it will. If they get the 1st pick they will take Turner. I would much rather take Wall, change your offense. Then you can either let Rub’s come over and see if they can play together, or trade him for a legit wing (Granger would be my plan).
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
Exactly
Biggest jump for this team next year would be Wall pick, Rubio trade and player pickup, Flynn or Sessions trade and player pickup. And then the other 2 picks, Darko, an Al or Love trade, and a FA.
by ChicagoViking on Apr 15, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
we could get Granger in a Rubio trade (if you get Wall), draft Anderson with the CHA pick, trade Love for a pick that would net Whiteside. Hell right there you have two co #1 options (Granger, Wall), a cold blooded shooter (Anderson), a young athletic center with tremendous defensive potential, and Al as the go to low post scorer. Ya that would be a young team but I bet it could win 30 games in year one, and improve year by year.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
I'm with you
Will be easier to trade Love (younger, better contract) than Al. These moves would make me buy Leauge Pass again. Turner + 2 picks and 1 or 2 other small moves, and I don’t know. Draft later than #2 and it goes down from there.
by ChicagoViking on Apr 15, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Problem
is it won’t happen. It’s what I would do though. Kahn is all in on Rubio (hence no Granger acquisition and Wall wouldn’t be drafted). I think Kahn is also all in for Turner too. I can see him nabbing Granger with Al and Jonny and picks as bait. Then you have to start Love. Which means you wouldn’t have traded Love for the Whiteside pick. So:
Mine:
Wall, Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
Kahn:
Rubio, Turner, Granger, Love, Darko
Oh ya in mine you don’t have to ship Flynn either, who would be a bench sparkplug under the new free flowing system.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
but they do currently have sessions
under Kahn’s too. How much more depth do you need?
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 15, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
We can trade Sessions
for a bag of peanuts if it would mean that team would be put together.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
Dream lottery scenario??
Wolves end up #1, Indy #2. Wolves want Granger and Turner, Indy needs Wall and maybe Pekovic.
Wouldn’t Wall and Jefferson + our other 2 picks (or something like that) be more realistic for that package?
Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009
by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 16, 2010 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
just so I get this right
you would trade Wall and Al plus other 2 first rounders for Turner and Granger? It just sounds like too much considering one of Wall or Turner would be ours already. How much would it cost to move up a spot in the draft? The difference between AL and Granger perhaps?
The two additional picks seems like overkill and really seems to undervalue our options in the draft and with other trades. Maybe throw in the utah pick so indy can nab a SF prospect late in the draft, but that’s about it.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 16, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe I’m overvalueing Granger. Reality is probably somewhere in between. Maybe just Turner+Granger for Wall+Jefferson? I’d do that in a heartbeat though.
Don’t think Indy would ever go for Wall+Peko for Turner+Granger. The difference between Wall and Turner is nowhere near that.
Official Kahn/Rambis band-wagon rider since 2009
by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 17, 2010 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I would say that
trading them the # pick (wall) and Jefferson for the #2 pick (Turner) and Granger is a pretty even deal.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 18, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
I was left with a sinking feeling we were being snookered by a very slick salesman that may very well not know what he is doing.
This is exactly the vibe I get from him as well. I’ve never met him, and I hope I’m wrong. Given the constraints under which he has to work, I’m not sure what someone of his questionable expertise and limited experience can accomplish.
The good news is that he’ll either be successful or fired well before ten years is up.
I'd still prefer a slick salesman who may or may not know what he's doing
to a guy who openly and clearly does not know what he’s doing (McHale).
Hate to go here, because I'm not asking for McHale back.
But he did put together nice teams before he retired without telling anyone sometime between the Wally and Will Avery picks in the first round of the ’99 draft. You had two phases of the roster with KG/Steph/Googs and then the quick rebuild with KG/Brandon/Wally/Malik/Joe Smith, each with solid supporting casts.
So far Kahn’s only basketball moves have been the Rubio gamble (and to say it is a gamble is not to say it can’t pay off) and Darko flier. Waiting on what should hopefully be additional confidence-inspiring moves this summer.
I agree with some of what you say here
but it is clear that Love doesn’t always give maximum effort out there. Sure, when he’s in decent position to get a rebound, he’ll hustle for it. But he also is known to jog back (or worse) on the defense end and to quit hustling when he’s frustrated. Not to mention that the guy is not in very good basketball shape.
For as much as I don’t think Rambis has done a good job this year, I think it was actually a decent move to tell Love that if he doesn’t play hard – even in a meaningless game – he won’t play. I hope Love learns from this season and busts his rear end this summer getting into shape. If Love were fully motivated and in shape all season, I think he could be a borderline All-Star.
I agree on the varied intensity of Love's effort
Yet, Jefferson’s effort is even more obviously all over the place. More often than not, Al Jefferson does not box out,. More often than not, Al Jefferson does not grab rebounds that go out of his zone. That’s just rebounding.
As others have noted, Jefferson rarely fits for post position. Maybe that is his knee, but it might not be. Awhile ago someone posted something about how more and more of Jefferson’s shot are away from the rim and that this trend began well before his injury. It seems that teams know that they can push Big Al around on offense and defense.
Gomes is also a slacker.
Now, maybe we disagree about all of this. But by my “naked eye test” Love is one of the least worst offenders in the energy department.
The question becomes: Is Rambis trying to pull some Zenmaster Apprentice tricks on Love, or is there something else behind the scenes between these two that has lead Rambis to give him no leash at all?
Because I agree that Love isn’t fundamentally different than any other player on the roster in terms of consistent effort.
I think someone else suggested this a while back
but I think Rambis feels that Love has the chance to be a pretty great player, so he has different standards for him than he does for someone like Flynn or Hollins, who have lower ceilings.
Yes, certainly Love is not the only offender in the energy/effort department
There is no one on the roster – aside from maybe Wayne Ellington – who is exempt from that charge. I don’t know if Love is one of the “least worst” offenders. But you’re right on in saying what you do about Al and Gomes.
Tim is right
I would say Love IS THE BIGGEST OFFENDER. I have been to ten games this year and might go to the target center after writing this to check out the open house. That being said Love is one of the laziest no effort sophmores I have seen in awhile, it is not that the refs do not give him the call they are just tired of seeing him flail around like a child everytime he gets solidly defended. Pretty sure Al’s game is better than Love’s in EVERY ASPECT except rebounding and passing.
by TheMorningAfter on Apr 15, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
disagree
but you knew that.
Love plays with tremendous energy most of the time. I think Al players lethargically almost every time he does not have the ball.
I view Love’s unbelievable rebounding prowess as strong evidence of his energy and effort. You don’t luck into THAT many rebounds. He’s undersized, he’s less athletic and yet he dominates the boards, grabbing rebounds away for 2 or 3 players that are taller than he is. His rebounding effort is historic-all-time-amazing for a player of his size or any size at the age of 21.
Lazy is not part of the equation.
I find it beyond unfair to call Love one of the laziest no effort sophomores you have seen in awhile.
Wow, do my eyes ever disagree with yours
Pretty sure Al’s game is better than Love’s in EVERY ASPECT except rebounding and passing.
You can’t be watching games. As of season’s end, Jefferson’s boarding was actually pretty spotty, and everything else about his game outside of the usual array of post moves was dramatically worse. I’ve never seen other teams dog on someone’s defense the way teams went at Jefferson in the post. There were repeated instances of teams taking him one-on-one with poor offensive bigs (Nene, Ben Wallace) just because they could. It was positively insulting, and Jefferson looked for all the world like he was completely beaten. The steady trickle of slap fouls after he’d already been torched: just awful.
I seriously like Jefferson as a guy from what little I know, defended him over the first wave of reckless DUI reactions, and tried to demonstrate early this season that he’d consistently worked on his passing…. But by the mid point of this year the guy was basically suffering the year out. If he wasn’t injured, the guy was not trying. Watching him literally spin, slowly, like the proverbial turnstile against Detroit the other night, that was awful.
Love, by contrast, had troubles with matchups, and there are more than a few bad ones for him. But effort? That’s not his big issue. Frustration: much more of that.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
You're right about Jefferson
but Love definitely does have a big issue with his effort. Not only in games, but it’s clear the guy has made no effort to get into basketball shape.
The shot location thing, though
Could also be the tricycle scheme.
It’s a rich tapestry.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Al has a tough time getting deep in the paint
because typically teams put their biggest frontline player up against him. He’s going to have to learn to make that mid-range jumper.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
If you look at his shot distribution
He’s taken about the same number, and made the same rate, over time. Last year I would have argued that he was adding it to his repertoire, but I’m not so sure now.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Go all the way back to his Celtic days
He played more PF and had more PFs guarding him, so a larger % of his shots were deeper in the paint. Now even if Darko is playing next to him, teams still put their biggest guy on him (e.g. Wallace vs. Jeberko) because they know he is money if he can establish deep post position. So he ends up having to take a lot more mid-range jumpers. This is why he’s been meandering at around a 50% FG since coming to Minnesota.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Good rebounder doesn't equal hard worker
For one, Love has a natural instinct for rebounding, which means his effort in that area doesn’t always need to be there. I wasn’t as offended by his benching in the 4th. If this is meant to a player development season, part of that development includes preventing bad habits. To a certain extent, Love is misperceived as a hard worker or a good guy: he’s a guy with good instincts, two All-Star caliber skills (those outlets were great), and a sense of entitlement that leads to him not playing hard all the time and complaining about fouls. I’m not saying he’s a jerk, but he is similar to Wally Szcz because he’s improperly perceived.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 15, 2010 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Why did people hold such a high opinion of Szczerbiak?
I never understood that. Especially the last couple of seasons with us where everyone kept talking about his “ability to drive to the hoop”. Give me a break….the guy was a walking turnover in motion.
Because Terrell Brandon made him look great.
That said, he (Wally) was really solid before he started to have injury issues. Couldn’t agree more on his drives towards the end of his run here – was there someone who thought that was a strength for him?
Wally was also a lot like Jefferson
maybe the 3rd best player on a good team. Very good on offense, but lacked the ability to play effective defense.
*Wally* thought it was a strength
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
My absolute favorite thing about Wally was seeing him come flying into view from nowhere, just as the guy he was supposed to be guarding was releasing their three pointer, because he was so far out of position. I called him Superman every time I saw it.
I remember the same about Wally
I think this explains why I have always been a little biased against Love, it seems he is in that mode a lot as well, especially for a PF.
disagree
rebounding requires tremendous effort, even with great instincts, especially with his limited size. Plus he’s not a good rebounder, he’s a great rebounder. he’s an off-the-charts rebounder, especially for his age. Regardless of his instincts he still has to go and get the ball, in the NBA against other men who also want the ball.
we can’t quantify effort so we’ll never settle this argument. But for the record, I think this opinion of Love not giving much effort is silly. but, you’re free to think my opinion is silly as well.
I don't know if we can quantify effort
but I can see effort when it is happening…watch Love at the same time you watch Corey Brewer. Do it for a whole game, one drips effort, the other, sometimes.
sure
Let’s pretend we are playing Jeopardy..
Answer: Not showing the same consistent effort as corey brewer
Question: What is the rest of the Timberwolves roster.
Love’s inconsistent level of effort is one of the smallest problems for this team. It’s not unique to him, it’s not best embodied by him, not even close.
Yep.
I can’t believe that with myriad problems faced by this team, that the effort level of Kevin Love is even brought up.
I think it's fair game
Dude’s got to get his head on straight and man up and work out whatever his problems are with Rambis or Kahn or the equipment guy or whoever it is. Love has a great opportunity to become a star if he’d just put the work in on and off the court. But that hasn’t happened yet. If he is who he thinks he is, there is no way that he lets himself get outplayed by anyone else on this team. Until that day comes, because of his talent and his place on this team, I think it’s fair game to question his effort level. The only thing holding Kevin Love back is Kevin Love. Rambis is just the messenger.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
but the problem is Rambis is using a double-standard. You’ve offered up a zen-like explanation in a prior thread whereby Rambis tailors his motivational tactics based on the particular personality:
Kevin Love = Humble the spoiled brat.
Darko = Spoon feed shots, praise, and minutes to help build his confidence and endear him to Minny.
Flynn = Ok, I have no clue what he was thinking with Flynn this year….
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
re: Love
I’m not sure I’d call Love a spoiled brat, but I think he’s definitely a guy who needs to be pushed. I’ll go back to how Gardy handles his players – he talks up the guys who probably will max out as bit players, trying to keep their confidence up (Punto), but he’s really hard on guys who have a ton of talent and the opportunity to do be so much more (Delmon Young, the young pitchers). I think Love believes that he is a potential star (as Rambis does), but they disagree on where Love currently is on the spectrum of becoming a star. Love thinks he’s close, Rambis sees a guy who’s playing like a career 6th man given his current level of effort.
In regards to it being a double standard, well heck ya it’s a double standard. If Love thinks he is ‘the guy’, then he’s going to be held to a different standard than everyone else on the team. The issue, to me, isn’t Love’s talent level or position on the team. It has everything to do with Love accepting the mental and leadership by example responsibility of being ‘the guy’ on the team, and that’s where I think Rambis is pushing him. Fish or cut bait, Love. You want to earn your teammates’ and coaches respect? You start by giving everything you can whenever you play, and you follow up by having your teammates’ backs and doing what’s best for the team (and that means doing what your coach says, as it’s not your responsibility to decide that. Disagree? Consult: Blatche, Andray or Garnett, Kevin, and see who’s career arc you’d rather have.) I don’t think me, Kahn, or Rambis disputes Love’s potential. What I wonder is whether or not Love thinks he should be built around by virtue of being the best talent on the team and not because he’s acting like a player who should be built around. Does that make sense? Kevin Love may be the most talented player on this roster, but that doesn’t make him ‘the guy.’ Right now Al volunteering to work out with Crouton and Olajuwon this summer puts him miles ahead of Love in my book in terms of a guy staking a claim to being ‘The Guy’ by working harder than his teammates at getting better.
I agree with you about Flynn too. I kinda get the sense that Rambis is doing what he can for Flynn and Ramon, as he’s unsure whether these guys are going to be around in a year or not. Might as well, help ’em, right?
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff
My double-standard argument applies to Love vs. players like Gomes and Jefferson, not a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is clearly a less talented player…but yeah, I think your theory is about as close to a rational explanation as can be provided regarding his treatment of Love.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
This is laughable.
Right now Al volunteering to work out with Crouton and Olajuwon this summer puts him miles ahead of Love in my book in terms of a guy staking a claim to being ‘The Guy’ by working harder than his teammates at getting better
After watching the inability to raise his arms above his waist on defense, pass out of the double-team, make an average number of free throws, stay healthy, avoid a DUI, all while arguably becoming the All Time NBA Leader in being ‘The Guy’ on teams with the worst winning percentage in NBA history, working out over the summer puts him “miles ahead of Love” in your book?
Has Love already proclaimed that he’s NOT working out this summer?
by PoorDick on Apr 16, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think he meant miles ahead as a player
just in terms of work ethic. And I think I’d agree with that assessment.
I don't see a single bit
of evidence in Al’s “work ethic” other than demanding the ball down low. Defense, passing, free throws, none of that has improved during the several hundred games has had to “work” on those aspects of the game.
I thought we were talking about this summer?
Not the past few years. I mean, maybe Jefferson’s claims about working out with Olajuwon will turn out to mean nothing and his work ethic/effort levels will still be the same next season. But at least Jefferson has said something about improving his work ethic and trying to improve his game over the summer.
The first step to solving a problem
is recognizing that there is one. It seems like Big Al at least has that part of it down. Love seems to think everything is fine except for his minutes.
How do you know this?
Love really has no drive to improve?
He doesn't.
He’s staked out a position on instinct and is defending it.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Boy, you like going with that response
I think that’s the third time I’ve seen a version of that from you. Unfortunately, it turns out I was a tad misinformed on this subject and have since come back a little bit on my initial claim. So, save your annoying responses for someone else.
It's what I'm seeing.
You get defensive and the argument turns binary.
For my money Al and Love are both flawed, and they’re being treated in quite different ways.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Then you need to adjust your vision
Don’t get so personal, dude. It’s a basketball website. We debate stuff. People are right sometimes. People are wrong sometimes. Apparently, you’re the only one who that rule doesn’t apply to.
It's not personal
I’m motivating you. I think you’re an immature poster who needs to be challenged because he has potential.
Is it working yet?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I had just never heard anything from him
that would suggest that. But someone posted a quote from him and I might be wrong on my initial impression.
He's "said something" in years past too
He’s not going to change. That’s why I don’t think Rambis laid the hammer on him like he did with Love. Love can still be molded, whereas Jefferson is just, er, moldy.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
He turned 25
three and a half months ago. He’s played 11,600 minutes in over 400 games. He’s earned tens of millions of dollars, and is guaranteed to earn tens of millions more. His skills and flaws are obvious to anyone who has watched him play for more than a quarter or two, and aren’t physical—they’re flaws in mentality and effort and commitment. If by now he hasn’t figured out how to fix them and committed to the on- and off-court work that needs to be done to fix those flaws, he never will.
Exactly..
…I don’t get what people think Al could turn into at this point if he’s not already there. He started his career at 18. He’s a vet at this point and we’re talking about him getting excited over off-season workouts? Hooray team leader! Also, don’t forget that Love did put in the work last summer. He came in looking like a completely different guy at training camp. It was striking. Then he got hurt. I don’t get this “Love doesn’t hustle” or “Love doesn’t care” crap. The guy has gotten seriously yanked around this year and he still put up numbers that were the best on the team. The whole mind games approach to coaching boggles the mind. The guy is an adult who is getting paid to succeed. Don’t play games with him on a 15 win club. The only recipients of mind games on this franchise should be Rambis and Kahn.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Why are players incapable of change
after 25? Zach Randolph, Hedo Turkoglu. Even Kobe Bryant. Those guys, and others, had major flaws – both mental and physical – that they worked on and fixed well into their early 30s. But because Al Jefferson – an 18 year old who has spent his entire career on terrible teams – had a terrible season this year and is not yet a good defender, we’re giving up on him completely?
Love got yanked around because he’s immature and doesn’t work hard on every play. Sure, he hustles when he wants to. But not on every play. He probably deserved more minutes than he got but Rambis comes from a place where “mind games” have won 10 championships.
You know what’s going to happen if Love doesn’t have his work ethic challenged sometime soon? Maybe he’ll be a 25 year old power forward getting paid too much to be the best player on a bad team.
by TimAllen on Apr 16, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Love got yanked around because he’s immature"
Where does the “immature” label come from? What specifically are you talking about?
If you mean “hates losing,” a la the comments from Just A Fan about Love getting frustrated with this team this year, I would say that I wish Al Jefferson were a little more immature.
I'm talking about what I've said before
Giving up on plays. Not hustling back on D. Making comments in the media about playing time/rotations that question his coach. That kind of stuff.
Wow
a lot more responses than I was expecting out of this.
To be clear, at least from my perspective, I think get the impression that Love thinks he’s one of the best two players on this team (which is true) and that that’s good enough. Great, he came into preseason in great shape. He looks like the Pillsbury doughboy out there now. WTF? I’m coming down hard on Love simply because he’s (or we are) carrying on like he’s this great big star or something. And I don’t disagree that he has the talent to do so, if he so chooses. But if he’s that guy, then why isn’t he working hard now to be in the best shape of his life? Why isn’t taking ownership of his teammates and barking out defensive assignments? Why isn’t he staking out his claim of this team in the media? And why the hell isn’t he playing his ass off all the time on the court, proving each and every second to Rambis and everyone else that he’s the best player on this team? That’s what KG did. Didn’t matter if the team was getting blown out or not – KG put it all on the line every night and demanded the same things from his teammates. As of yet Kevin Love is nowhere near that kind of leader or personality for this ballclub. Again, I’m not disputing Love’s talent, but if you want to call that questioning his maturity or effort or whatever, well then so be it.
Al, despite his DUI and also poor effort, wins points in my book for taking ownership of his two biggest weaknesses this year. And ya, it is all talk at this point, so go ahead and caveat it away. But the reality to me is that if I could think up the best possible summer regimen for turning Al into an All-Star next season, it would be something along the lines of having him work out with Thorpe or Crouton or some elite trainer to help him with his explosiveness and quickness, and then to work out with someone respectable on his defensive skills. Olajuwon, the player, is about as respectable as you get, and hopefully Al’s work with him is a multi-week thing and not just a weekend flight to Houston or wherever. Does that make this Al’s team, or make Al some great leader? No, it does not. But it does suggest that Al has a drive to get better and willingness to work with criticism.
I would love for Love to get 35 minutes a night next year as pay off for his fantastic conditioning and outstanding off-season work, but do you really expect Love to do it? I’ll believe that when I see it. I’ll be honest – I wasn’t able to see as many games as I’d like to have this year, so I don’t honestly know if Love was yanked too much, too often. What I do know is that he could be so, so good and thus far is not acting like the player he could be. I guess you can blame Rambis for it, but that’s kind of the point for me – KG would’ve made sure that he did everything in practice and the off-season to force the coach to play him in crunch time, and I just don’t believe that Love is at that point yet.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Love has...
gotten a raw deal this year. I don’t think his effort level has ever dropped low enough to justify the treatment he’s received.
That said, Jefferson is clearly immobilized by his knee injury. Before the injury and surgery, he was playing at a very high level — higher than almost any post player in the NBA, right before he went down. If PoorDick, Stop n Pop, and others want to erase that from history, that’s fine, but I think there’s reason to think that a FULL off-season of rehab and conditioning could bring Al Jefferson back to an All Star level of play that Kevin Love is not, and never will be, physically capable of reaching.
I woud bet
that Al is working with Hakeem on his offensive post moves. This is what Kobe did last summer and exactly what Al suggested in an the paper. He said he wants to work on his footwork. I took that to mean offensive footwork.
But, Al is working on game this summer.
So is Kevin Love.
No difference.
I'm not going to complain about
Jefferson working with Hakeem, but it sure seems like it would make more sense for him to work out with Dikembe or Camby!
Historically, they don't tend to, actually.
But then, not being willing to look at regressions of the entire history of NBA careers because you think they’re too “advanced” for your tastes, you wouldn’t recognize that.
Leaving alone age, there’s a danged strong argument against someone who’s played as many minutes as Al Jefferson changing his stripes at this point. The idea of his ever being a plus defender, for example…. Nope, probably not.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Yes, it's probably the trend that
improvement happens less as players get older. Shocking. But clearly, there are many cases that go against that trend. I named 3 of them, but there are many, many more. And not just players improving, but players changing their games or adding different facets.
But I guess that’s not as good as your “danged strong argument”
What it is, is anecdotal.
Go ahead, bank on Jefferson learning to lift his arms above his hips on defense because he’s planning on working this offseason.
Frankly I’d settle for his getting healthy. I honestly can’t believe that the guy could possibly play defense as poor as he did the last 20 games of this year without being hurt. I’ve questioned whether Rambis should have even had him on the floor at all.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Maturity..
…and player type are two big different things. I could care less about Jefferson’s immaturity. It’s the black-holeness with no defense ’m worried about.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Love is working on game this summer
Kevin Love’s plans over the summer.
from PPress (see Sonia’s news link 4/14)
One of Kahn’s key exit interviews after the season will be with Love, who wants a clearer definition of his role.
“It’s not necessarily about starting,” Love said. “I just want to know what their plans are for me and what I mean to the team. I need to get some things figured out. I plan to work my butt off in the summer to prove to the organization what I can do.”
And don’t say that Jefferson is working harder because he’s hiring Hakeem and the Crouton guy.
Ah, well I didn't know he said that
Good for Love. I hope he does that. I take back what I said about Jefferson being miles ahead of Love. =)
I disagree
Look at both Al’s assist per game and assist % numbers and both have gone up every single year he has been in the league. Even if Al isn’t an All Star passer, for a guy who came into the league with NO passing ability, he is improving, even if not fast enough for all of us.
Nor do I see a lack of work from Love.
Even what Rambis has said was all about his getting frustrated and distracted during games, as opposed to plain lazy.
As Stop-n-Pop says, the guy worked out last summer as hard as anyone. He came to his sophomore season having added at least one significant skill to his NBA repertoire, in the range shooting. Where are the signs of this slacker thing? He’s not agile, he gets killed defensively on certain matchups, but the “he’s dogging it” thing is vastly overblown.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Yeah--
I don’t see what evidence we have that Kevin Love’s attitude is the problem.
Rambis, on the other hand? I’m not saying he’s a bad coach. But is there any evidence of him being a good one? Ergo Ipso Facto, how do we know the problem isn’t with Rambis (bad boss vs. good employee)?
Darko
is pretty compelling. As is Cardinal wanting to be back. I’m not sure Al would want to work so hard over the summer if he didn’t like Rambis. Love was openly unhappy when McHale left and has never sounded overly enthusiastic about Rambis. I’m not saying that Rambis isn’t part of the problem, but there appears to be a lot of ancillary evidence that Love has a stick up his butt about something, and generally about the ’I’m not getting enough minutes’ bit.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Love is a guy who has never lost this much
and has been lauded pretty much everywhere he went. The fact that he’s losing so much and someone dares to not give him a ton of minutes makes him upset. I think he needs to take the summer, get in real basketball shape and drop the ego a little bit.
If everybody on the current Wolves
hustled like Corey Brewer, this would have been a 25-30 win team. Just because Love wasn’t alone in lacking hustle doesn’t mean he should be off the hook. He is supposedly the best player on the team (at least according to many CHer’s), shouldn’t he be expected to set an example for hustle rather than using a bunch of guys who won’t be in the NBA next season an an excuse.
Because effort can be controlled
And if he’s going to become a better player, he can’t get by with the level of effort he’s displayed this year. He doesn’t have the athleticism to bitch about a call all the way down the court and get back into the play. You can say what you want about personnel or coaching, but there aren’t excuses for lack of effort.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 16, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see his effort level
as being one of the top, oh, I dunno, two hundred things wrong with this team .
How about the effort level
of the other so-called best player on the team who also happens to be making four times as much money?
How come every time someone criticizes Love's work ethic
the stock response is “well, what about the work ethic of Al Jefferson?!” It’s the classic “Well, I only got a D+ in Math, but Tommy over there got an F, so you can’t really criticize my D+”.
They have nothing to do with one another. Love’s work ethic and effort is a problem. So is Al Jefferson’s.
I'm just saying
Love’s work ethic and effort may be a problem. If it were solved tomorrow, this would still be one realllllyy crappy team, led by “The Guy” who isn’t a leader and has never won since high school.
Well, we can only talk about
draft scenarios and trading Al Jefferson for so long until we need a new topic to discuss
Perhaps you can agree that Love can be classified
as an Immature NBA player? Considering his age, this isn’t even really a criticism, just a fact. If you notice Rambis’ comments about Love late in the season, he focused much more on Love not controlling his emotions than he did on Love’s hustle. Love can decide tomorrow that he will no longer let outside items like ref’s calls affect him, and Rambis is trying to get him to make that step. I really don’t think that is a bad thing.
Agreed
But I think Love being pissed off is more a symptom of this team’s problems rather than a cause of them.
I’m amazed that people will give him crap for getting frustrated with the odd rotations, coming off the bench, and general tanking—but our overpaid untradeable drinking-and-driving black hole of a power forward who is in the latter half of his career says he’s thinking about doing a sit-up this summer and it’s all, “Oh, Al, you’re the MAN!”
by PoorDick on Apr 16, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we forget a couple things Love has brought
on himself. He whined publicly when McHale was fired, then again when Cardinal was traded. Fair or not, this affects how people view him, especially his “team” attitude.
Yes, I've apparently forgotten about
him “whining publicly” when either event happened. Do you have proof other than your memory?
If you're asking me to waste
a bunch of time looking for a quote in the paper the day after McHale was fired, sorry, I ain’t wasting my time. I have 100% confidence that my memory is correct on this, if you need further proof you are welcome to do the research yourself. Of course maybe now I’ll just ask you for proof every time you make some sort of statement on this site, or you can be a leader like Love and just start including your proof every time you point out something a player has done or said.
If we can arrange a private meeting and each show up with $1,000 cash as a bet, I may be persuaded to waste my time, but short of that it’s just not worth it for me.
It cracks me up how people will criticize Jefferson to no end, but heaven forbid someone points out some of Love’s shortcomings. This happens every time Love gets critiqued on this site. I especially enjoy the posts from people who constantly praise Love, but those same posters think nothing of bashing Flynn, Darko, or Jefferson and use the Wolves record as a reason they aren’t good players, apparently the Wolves won/loss record doesn’t affect Love. This just happened again the other day. Sorry, not gonna waste my time getting the exact posts (haven’t figured out the blue box thing yet), and I won’t call out the poster from the other day, but initials JC may be familiar.
Seriously, I hope I’m proven wrong about Love and he becomes a lock down defender, maybe even an All-Star, hell at this point I’ll settle for seeing him make a couple big shots a year to win games. Love could easily be my favorite player on this team, he may be right now, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t need to address some major issues, and he might want to shut his mouth and quit whining until he’s done something to earn the right to spout a bit (that includes Twittering about McHale getting fired before the team gets a chance to announce the move, just my opinion but it was another sign of his immaturity…part of being a pro is knowing when to keep you mouth, or twits, shut).
I'm just sayin'
I don’t think Kevin Love is a whiner, and I don’t recall any public quotes to that effect. If there were, that would have changed my opinion. I pay fairly close attention to him and this team, and I think I would have seen something said about either McHale or Cardinal that indicated Love is a whiner. I assumed by your strong opinion that you must have. Anybody else have any evidence of Kevin Love being a whiner?
The Tweeting thing—yes, that was unfortunate. It didn’t seem like “whining” to me:
“Today is a sad day … Kevin McHale will NOT be back as head coach this season.”
If that’s what you’re using to form your opinion of whether or not Love is a “pro,” well, you’re certainly entitled to it and you may be right—but that’s pretty slim evidence compared to the rest of what he’s done to establish his reputation.
Love has a bunch of faults. Some from youth, some from genetics, some from attitude. But if every position on this team were filled with a player of Kevin Love’s age and caliber at his pay, it would be a much better team, more likable, and more marketable. He’s a lot closer to being part of the solution, rather than being part of the problem.
As to the “blue box” thing—when you hit “reply” to a post, you’ll see a series of characters in between the top and bottom text boxes that look like B I S . . . and then a quotation mark. When you want to put text into a blue box, highlight it, and then click on the quote mark.
I won't belabor the point
but I did see comments from Love that could be interpreted as whining, or complaining, both after McHale was fired and after Cardinal was traded. Frankly I don’t blame him for being loyal to McHale, but he needs to realize the business he is in, call McHale and say it is BS, then shut up. I’ll even give him the McHale issue, for a young guy it is probably tough. But he commented on the Cardinal trade and also seemed to let it affect his play in late Feb and early March, I just think that is inexcusable for a pro athlete.
Back to the blue box….I’ve gotten that far before, then not sure what to do. Do you copy and paste in between the quotes??
Nope, just
1. Highlight the text you want in quotes (left-click your mouse)
2. Click on the little “quote” icon in the tool bar
3. The highlighted text should then have the world “blockquote” before and after it
4. Hit “PREVIEW” to make sure the text is actually in the blue box
5. If it is, hit “POST”
I should also make sure something is clear
I really don’t care who is back next year between Jefferson or Love, I just want one dealt to improve a wing position. My only preference is that Kahn keep the player that the FO and coaching staff think will help the most next season, just win baby, at least once in a while.
Wade back in the thread. The question is, why is Love being treated *differently.*
The reason that comparison goes to Al is because Al’s at his position, getting the starts and somewhat more minutes, despite the results being demonstrably worse when he’s on the floor.
It’s not that complicated a question to ask: Why is one of the best players on the team being treated in that way?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Coaches treat different players in different ways all the time
Tom Kelly hated it when young guys didn’t listen to him, and really hated it when a pitcher griped about being pulled from a game. Yet in Game 7 of one of the best World Series of all time, TK thought about pulling Jack Morris after nine innings. To paraphrase the story, Morris basically told Kelly to get the F away from him, he’s staying in the game. Kelly walks back to Dick Such and says I guess he’s staying in the game. I doubt Kelly would have accepted this from 90% of the guys who pitched for him, but Morris was treated differently.
Corey Brewer also "drips" a lack of control
If he could play a bit more like Love, his career would be going a lot better.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
No way
Brewer’s meal ticket is the fact he gives effort like that. Love is a much better player and can take off some sets without it holding him back that much. But Brewer doesn’t have the talent to make up for a lack of effort.
Disagree
Love can’t take any plays off defensively. He is physically overmatched against nearly every opponent he faces (they are either longer and/or quicker than he is) and the only way he won’t stick out like a sore thumb on defense is if he goes all out…..which by the way is why I think he can never be a 35+ minute per game player. Even the great players have to take some plays off in order to play those kind of minutes and he’ll never be able to do that. That’s why playing him 28 – 32 minutes per game and asking him to go full throttle may be the most effective long-term role for him.
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 16, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Had to rec that comment
Not because of it’s brilliance, but because it states what should be obvious but apparently isn’t. It’s amazing how people constantly criticize Flynn because a sub six foot PG has no chance, but those same people have no problem defending an undersized PF, who on top of that is slow footed for an NBA player. I don’t get it. I often wonder, if Love got 2 rebounds less per game, would people actually be willing to look at the inadequacies in several other parts of his game. Rebounds are great, but leaving your guy wide open five times a game is worse.
There's a reason coaches talk about "letting the game come to you."
You can’t force everything.
If Corey could learn how to choose his spots rather than playing out of control, he would then be able to play consistently effective defense, rather than overplaying, taking risks after the steal, and all the things that make him not live up to his huge potential on that side of the ball. And that would be his strong side.
I’m not going to start enumerating all the “I’m hustling to save the ball to the wrong team under our own basket” moments over the last three years. We’ve all seen them. They seem routinely to happen just after he’s made a great steal or whatever…. Off he goes on the run, only oops, it doesn’t quite work out, it’s out of bounds off his foot.
There’s a reason that the run of Wolves coaching staffs during Corey’s tenure here have all talked about his learning to do things like “not play at 150 miles an hour all the time.”
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Not going to argue with your take on Brewer
but ask 1,000 coaches a simple question. Would you rather teach a frenetic player to slow down, or an often coasting player to speed up…999 would rather have to teach a player to slow down.
Tough Season
I was one of those suckers that voted 26-30 wins. I remember reading JAF’s posts and thinking him extremely pessimistic, so Kudos to you JAF. I’m with you SnP, just maybe taking a different train than the one to Thunderville.
With how mismatched the parts were this season, it’s going to be tough to be hopeful this summer. David Kahn came back into the NBA after an extended absence. Taylor and Moor knew this and knew he would likely need time to hire a coach, yet he was still the best candidate in their mind to come in at a crucial stage of this team’s development. That decision along with the timing of that decision is where I place the blame. I don’t blame David Kahn for waiting until after the draft to hire a coach, but now he has to prove to me he can transform this roster of players to one that fits his chosen coaching philosophy and team building philosophy.
You could look at it like Kahn is a salesman, and that he got this job by selling himself moreso than actually having great basketball ideas, and then use this season’s disorganization as proof that this version is correct. When he shut the door on the trade deadline too early likely to dispel trade rumors, that only confused things even more, since this was one of his stated windows to improve the team. If this summer goes poorly and it becomes clear that the roster is just as disorganized on opening night 2010, it’s going to be awfully difficult to believe that Kahn isn’t just such a salesman. Giving continued attention is going to be difficult as I’ve seen this GM trainwreck storyline play itself out before here with this franchise.
Good Luck David Kahn. Your honest banter and bold promises have backed you into a corner of accountability, and the pressure is on.
That last sentence...
…is spot on. The dude has no where to run after all they’ve said this year.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I believe they call this
time to put up or shut up. This happens to everyone who is open with the media and explicit in the crafting of expectations.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 15, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
And from what we have heard from Kahn and Chris Wright:
- competing for playoffs
- 2-4 significant acquisitions
- very active off season
- taylor willing to spend to win
- filling target center
Those are HUGE goals and I will be amazed if they come close to them.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I’m concerned that these sorts of lofty claims are going to force the team’s hand to make moves for the sake of making moves — especially if the ping-pong balls don’t bounce favorably. Do they feel that they have to overpay for a FA just to show that they haven’t sat on the cap space? Do they make a sub-optimal trade with Love or Jefferson just to break things up?
Honestly, for me..
I think I’m ready for moves just for the sake of moves.
I know it isn’t necessarily the smart, prudent, patient thing to do, and yet… my patience is really coming close to its end. I want to watch an exciting, good team next year. If that means overpaying for a free agent, or overpaying in terms of trade assets, then so be it.
I actually HOPE Kahn’s hand is forced this offseason. Just get some good players.
me too
this last off season was the most exciting part of whole season for me I actually think his moves were pretty good. I want kahn to do what he does best trade!
if we can get a higher pick or move al or love do it! find some role player or starter and sign him. Just be productive this time
His moves were okay
I still don’t get the Etan Thomas trade. I was less than thrilled about the Q-Rich for M Blount swap. And while I thought the Miller/Foye deal was a good one, ultimately, it would be nice to have something to show for it other than Rubio’s rights and Oleksiy Pecherov.
I think a lot of moves were robbing peter to pay paul
but etan hasn’t done anything and Q wasn’t gonna make a difference hopefully it is less spin this offseason and a decent improvement like 25-35 wins. Regardless the offseason has been the best aspect of Kahn so far…
We had to move Richardson
A veteran in his contract year with a history of low percentage chucking? That would have been disasterous.
Nah
Oily did his best impersonation before he was sat for the rest of the year.
by Cedarpenguin on Apr 16, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Hoiberg indicated last night that they wouldn't overpay
In a separate question, he indicated that if they don’t spend it all on one guy, they might spend some (not necessarily all) of their space on vets more in the Mitchell/Porter mold than the Cardinal/Wilkins mold. But he did say that overpaying for long-term deals hamstrings a team’s future.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 15, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
So vets that can play
instead of vets who are completely worthless on the court? That’s good to hear.
by princelyfrank on Apr 16, 2010 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Well 2/5 isn't bad
Realistically, they could do the 2nd bullet and the 3rd. While maybe 20-30 wins, still under the cap, still pretty empty arena…
I'll take it though
I’d rather have that than a guy who’s able to keep spinning and spinning and never get anywhere. It also suggests that if it doesn’t work then Kahn isn’t the solution and he won’t hang around for 5 years longer than he needs too (McHale, ahem).
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Today's PA show
Anybody listen to PA on KFAN today? He had NBA TV analyst (and Edina native) Rick Kamla on to discuss the NBA playoffs, and to conclude the segment PA asked Kamla for an opinion on the Wolves. Kamla immediately and utterly destroyed Kurt Rambis (prefacing his statement with something like “I hope some pertinent people are listening to this right now, because I think Kurt Rambis did a brutal job”), taking him and Kahn to task for thinking Jefferson and Love can’t play together, fearing they’re going to trade Love, saying they underachieved under Rambis, that Rambis should have experimented more than he did (e.g., playing Flynn and Sessions together) seeing as how they were such a poor team, anyway, etc…. It was mighty shocking to hear that on the Wolves’ station.
hour 2 here:
http://www.kfan.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=KFAN_PADubay.xml
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
To be fair, Kamla's not an analyst...
He’s a host. His opinion isn’t any more informed than Matt Winer’s or Ernie Johnson’s, no matter what his connection to the area is.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 15, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair point. I’m not familiar with the guy at all. I was just shocked at how he really didn’t pull any punches. I mean, in many ways these types mingle in small circles.
Paul Allen’s response on his “Prattle” page:
… WOLVES: Edina’s RICK KAMLA always has been one of the smartest basketball minds I have known. He joined the 9-to-Nooner today representing NBA TV and NBA.com, his employers, and he destroyed KURT RAMBIS.
Rick came in a flat said Rambis did an awful job this year. I disagree with a couple of his points but wholeheartedly agree with one — Kurt didn’t experiment enough this year in a season we knew we’d be bad. Kamla hated KAHN conceding LOVE and JEFFERSON cannot play together and hated Rambis didn’t make it work and use it more during the season. I hear his take but the problem is those guys are two of the slowest, worst defenders at the 4 or 5 in the league. Playing them together for long stints would be defensive disaster.
Ricky also loathed the fact Rambis wouldn’t play FLYNN and SESSIONS together. Problem there is Sessions isn’t a good enough perimeter threat to secure the 2 spot. I, however, would have liked to see that more often in experimental fashion.
They same to be basing some of their future on securing DARKO and that’s a risky proposition. I wouldn’t mind giving him a shot at the right price because he never has been loved and they are willing to give him a fair chance here. If in shape and not sulking he could be a decent, part-time center.
We need to figure out what to do with Al, house the one to get JOHN WALL, hit big on Charlotte’s pick and nab one free agent who matters. We also need to make sure Kurt’s Triangle Offense is right for our team. Just because PHIL does it well with KOBE and PAU doesn’t mean it’ll work here.
It seems to me PA was kind of catching his drift but then fell back into getting hung up on things they can’t do, and I wonder if the team isn’t doing the same. I think Kamla was saying something along the lines of “utilize the pieces you DO have, perhaps even in unconventional and/or even obviously flawed ways, because you don’t have much to lose, and it’s better than going 15-67 with more aesthetically-pleasing-but-also-deeply-flawed lineups in the meantime.” I tend to agree with his take. I have a 6-year-old daughter who, like most six-year-old girls, loves to draw. Should I force her to try and reproduce Mona Lisa over and over even though she’s not equipped to do so, or should I just let her do what she does well: draw colorful, whimsical pictures with crayons? That’s a bit of a stretch, maybe, but…should Kurt Rambis continue to demand Hollins/Darko be Andrew Bynum to Al’s poor man’s Pau Gasol, or is it just better to start Al and Love, let them do their thing, and go from there?
I mean, if this franchise-worst season leads to a top pick and they can get the prospect they most want with their own pick (no burning other assets to do it) and then still have the rest of their assets to go flesh out the rest of the team, maybe it’s worth it. 39% that’s the case (assuming their mark is Wall or Turner).
I bet you force your daughter to do a lot of things
Clean up, not talk back to you, not run around the house….
Rambis is creating a foundation with the team, just as you have with your daughter.
Ya
That’s the thing – in a 24 hour news cycle you gotta have something to talk about, and criticism or fawning praise are the two easiest things to come up with to put out there.
For me, ultimately, Kamla’s (and others like it) position is irrelevant because this team, like the one Kahn inherited last summer, is nothing like the team we’ll have in 2 years. (Note – I didn’t say the team in two years would be better, just dramatically different from this one). IF Kahn and Rambis were trying to do something with these players, then I would place more substance into Kamla’s take. However, I believe that Kahn and Rambis have the same conclusion about this team and have thus acted accordingly – you win and lose in this league based primarily on one thing: your star player. We don’t have one. Thus our current roster is incomplete and Rambis is choosing to establish the foundation of his system at the expense of catering to the strengths/weaknesses of guys who most likely won’t be here in the long haul (phrased differently, if a guy gets the triangle, great, and if not, then he’ll be moved for value elsewhere. None of the guys on the roster are untouchable, and until we have that 1A guy why should Rambis bastardize the system he wants to run in order to eke 5 more wins out?)
Up to this point I think a rather convincing argument can be made that Kahn and Rambis are operating around one major need – getting a star player. Until that happens Rambis is going to continue forcing guys to learn his system. That’s my take on it. Once that guy is here I think we’ll suddenly see Rambis’ rotations and system adjusting to maximize that guy. And the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that nothing else really matters (in the grand scheme of things) to Kahn and Rambis if they don’t get that guy. I mean, that’s the truth of the NBA – if you have Lebron, Melo, Wade, Roy, Kobe, etc., you’re going to be competitive and in the playoffs. And if you don’t, then you’re going to end up being the Bobcats with Wallace, or Houston, or Memphis – good teams but with no realistic chance for something more. That’s the reality of it, and I think that’s the game Kahn and Rambis are playing, hence Kahn is basically on record saying that the Wolves will put all assets (except Rubio) into play in order to get a top two pick this summer. No one on the current roster is more valuable than Wall or Turner to the long term success of this franchise.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
not true
he’s a fan, a long-time fan of the wolves as well, not just a national analyst. He’s probably not better informed than the remaining people who admit to being fans of the team, but he’s certainly better informed about the Wolves and more invested in it than the guys you mentioned.
he won the fantasy league that has to count for something
right I mean it wasn’t just luck even Kamla praised him for it
The point is that he's no more informed than any other poster on here
He’s not a guy who played with or coached any of these guys.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 16, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually he is more informed than most of us posters
Most of us don’t have a single NBA insider we can contact for off the record information on players around the league, he does. I’ve known of him for years, going back to fantasy sports, I am confidant he knows how to work sources and works at that craft.
His points weren't based on that information
He was giving his opinions about basketball performance, and in that regard, he’s like any other sports journalist: If I want to know who’s injured or who’s about to get traded, those are the go-to guys. But they overstep their bounds when they impart opinion because it’s not clear that they’ve studied tape or looked at the advanced stats. His “I hope some pertinent people are listening” jag embodies this because it implies that Kahn, Hoiberg, etc. have looked at it less than he has when the reality is the opposite
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 16, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
We can disagree on this
but I believe when he is giving his opinions about basketball performance, they are influenced by things he hear’s from insiders. Don’t know how much you know about his background, but like I said above, he was pretty big into fantasy sports. These guys, when they are on a national level, rely a lot on inside information, not just personal opinion, to keep them ahead of the competition.
Fair enough
The whole “I hope some pertinent people are listening” thing gets me, as if upon listening to it, they’d say, “My God, he’s right! How could we not see this?” I assume that Rambis is being monitored by Kahn and the front office and that he and Kahn discuss these topics on a regular basis.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 16, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
That's all folks...
Looney Tunes may sum up the season fairly well.
That said, thanks again to SnP and Wyn as well as the regular contributors for a most enlightening and entertaining look at the world of Wolves basketball. I have learned much from the ken of the den and listening to the smack of the pack. Enjoyed the great humor and recipes along the way, too.
Enjoy the off-season.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
You make it sound like you're signing off--
Why would you do that? You put up with the crap (regular season) and now we actually get some exciting stuff (lottery balls and maybe hope). This is the best part!
Just temporarily, of course.
I will be very busy in the coming months and although the draft speculation and trade talk are intriguing, at this point I prefer to take a wait-and-see approach. As to putting up with the crap of the regular season, that was possible only because of the bonhomie here. It’s sad but true that the off-season is “the best part.” It speaks volumes about this team.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
We should remind ourselves that impatience with the team is not the same as impatience with Kahn
Ya, we’ve been bad for three years now, but two of those year had nothing to do with Kahn. So it’s not fair to say he hasn’t turned the team around fast enough or that we’ve waited long enough for him to do something….he hasn’t been here even a full year yet, he’s only been here 10 months. Don’t blame him for McHale’s inertia.
Well
can i blame him and rambis for flynn and hollins? can I blame them for the alienation of our best young player?
After close to a year, the best players on the team are still guys brought in by the fo-by-committee, and the worst signings, contracts & draft picks are ones done under the new fo. The cap flexibility & assets we have are the products of the previous fo. I like the cashing in of some of those assets the previous fo aquired for the rights to rubio, and I like the swapping of cardinal’s expiring deal to give darko a try, but don’t blame Mchale for Kahn’s, hmm, malertia.
Well, I'm of the opinion that Love alienates himself, first of all
But that’s a whole different thing
Mainly what I’m saying is he hasn’t had enough time to get things in place, so I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for this season being bad. Because it was going to be bad regardless…even if we still had McHale, we were going to be awful. But considering he was hired without enough time to scout for the draft, without a scouting staff he picked or even knew, and with a roster of player he hadn’t seen very much of and who weren’t very good, I don’t think he could have really done anything more than he did. You have to know what you have before you can move forward, and the only way Kahn was going to know what he had was to let the year play out.
As for Rambis, I think this is something that will pay off big in the long run. I understand fans get upset about the system and whatever, but the reality is, if we had hired the perfect coach who ran the perfect system for the players we have, we’d have maybe 20 wins. We’re just not good….people need to understand we’re just have no talent on the team. This concept that “well, if Rambis had just run a simpler system” or “if Rambis had just played Love 40 minute a night no matter what”, that then we’d have somehow been a 30 or 40 win team….that’s absurd.
It all comes back to patience and the need to see things in the big picture, which Wolves fans don’t want to do anymore because ya, that’s all we’ve done for three years now. But again, two of those years are McHale’s, and it took a lot to just get rid of the mess he made in the first place. Next year, Kahn is definitely under the gun to make this team a lot better, but the concept that he somehow was supposed to do it this year….with no prep time, with no optimized staff, with no idea what exactly was on the roster….no way. He did what should have this season.
by Oceanary on Apr 15, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
fair enough
I agree with most of that. Most of the mess-ridding was done before Kahn got here, and I think he’s already blown a few calls, but I certainly don’t blame him for us being bad this year. I thought 20 wins was pushing it, and that was with a healthy Love getting starter’s minutes all season. If we get the pick I think we will, and if Rubio does come over as I expect him to, and they somehow repair things with Love, all they really need to do is make use of the cap space and we’ll have a very good foundation.
I don’t blame Rambis for the system either, as they didn’t actually play all that much of…well, anything other than the ‘Jonny-pound’.
I do hold them collectively for what looks like pushing our best young talent out the door. On the scale of professional sports prima donnas, criminals, and crazies, Kevin Love doesn’t even make a blip on the radar, and if they aren’t capable of managing him into a productive and positive player they quite frankly have no business in professional sports management. It’s possible it will work out, but it will be in spite of the bumbling handling of him that began with just about the first words out of Kahn’s mouth as a new GM, not because of it.
I definitely agree on Jonny
I realize I’ve kind of given him a free pass this year, but I never thought he’d be all that great. I spent a month on Zgoda’s blog in May showing everyone how Jonny is basically TJ Ford on a pogo stick. I was all about Steph Curry in the draft and am still kind of bitter we passed on him.
Certainly next year Kahn is under the gun. No excuses, no “figuring things out”….he knows what he has now, he’ll have been able to get more of a helpful staff in place, he has a coach and should be on the same page with him….he definitely gets held to expectations starting….well, pretty much now.
Makes me think
of Rambis’ comment that the team never ‘clicked’ with itself – that they were a team in the sense that they all wore the same uniforms but otherwise behaved as a group of different factions trying to co-exist. I am willing to wait another year on Rambis to see what he can he do with a team that does connect with itself instead of the disjointed Frankenstein of team we had this year.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
A big variable here...
How many from this season’s team are back for next season? The Wolves have had so much turnover, and no dominant personality, for several years now. What will we see next year? Will there be ‘the MAN’ on the squad next season? Do we have a strong veteran player to help provide a baseline for expectations, effort, approach?
Team chemistry isn’t all down to the coaches, but it is necessary for the coaches to identify a leader or two, empower them, and effect change through them.
by Krotz the Wall on Apr 16, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Because I can
Here’s who I think will be here next year (in no particular order):
Wayne Ellington
Darko Milicic
Senor Steimsma/Nathan Jawai (either with the team or in the D-League with us holding their rights)
Brian Cardinal (either as bench mentor or assistant coach)
Wilkens (if they don’t sign anyone to replace him)
Guys who might stay and might not, contingent on what else happens:
Jonny and Ramon
Al and Love
Guys who are trade filler:
Ryan Gomes (he’ll be traded or cut)
Ryan Hollins (he’ll be traded or stick around as the fourth big)
Corey Brewer (he’s here as a potential trade throw in, although I think he could just as easily be in any of the other categories as well)
No chance:
Stewie
Pavs
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope you're wrong about Damien Wilkens
I don’t see what value he brings to this team. His “veteran leadership” won us all fo 15 games and led the coach to say last week that we were only a team insomuch as the players wore the same jerseys. I don’t think its gonna be that hard to replace his contributions.
I don't see Wilkens back next season
he seemed to fall off the last half of the season. I think he will make enough somewhere else that the Wolves will let him go. I also think he’s going to want to get more minutes, I hope this team improves enough that Wilkens minutes would be shortened next season.
He was basically this year's Carney,
only last year’s edition would have fit the Kahn roster and style of play far better. An occasional three, running the floor, and making defensive effort (with maybe less veteran wile than Damien there) would have been a welcome addition this time.
For the money he made, which was 800 k or something, I’d rather have inked Rodney C. again.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
On the draft
If I recall the timeline correctly, he had about 30 days. Kahn portrays himself as a workaholic. He specifically said that he was not searching for a coach, so the draft is all he was working on. For the top 6 spots, there had to be say 10-12 guys in consideration. He had the access to the information: workouts, game tapes, scouts opinions.
Would it have been better to have it be an ongoing process throughout the year? Sure. But it seems to be there was more than enough time to get it right.
I think
not having a coach/system in place was the determining factor in why Flynn ’didn’t’ work out as planned. Flynn’s a classic athletic guy with a lot of ‘upside’, the kind that you can put in a number of systems and argue that he could be great (akin to Aminu in this year’s draft). Curry, despite his production, has enough athletic and strength concerns as to warrant legitimate, if ultimately unnecessary, discussion about whether he’d need to be protected in a system or by another backcourt player in order to be successful in the NBA. In hindsight last year’s draft could be argued to have been about more general qualities than about specific needs/fits on the team:
Rubio – an ‘Adrian Peterson’ pick – too good to pass up, regardless of the questions surrounding him.
Flynn – there was a huge leadership hole in the backcourt of this team, and Jonny was well regarded for his leadership. As much as the potential upside thing in a number of different systems (just not ours, ironically) may have played into the drafting of Flynn, his mental toughness and personality (ability to handle pressure and losing right away) might have been another big contributing factor. Seems like a general pick based on potential, athleticism, and charisma for a team desparately needing all three in the backcourt.
Lawson – better value in shifting the pick to this year, you know, once we have a coach
Ellington – arguably drafted because we needed a shooter, having traded two away. The type of guy who’ll be a good role player for anybody, and who fit a need.
Hollins signing – we all wanted to know how Al and Love would do next to an athletic 7 footer. And remember too, at the time, a lot of people were really high on this signing.
Sessions signing – came across to me as a straight up value signing, a tradeable young asset on a solid contract, again almost too good to pass up.
Pavs – for me this is the biggest oops out of all, but again I can buy the general idea that he would provide some three point shooting on a team with no shooters.
So, ya, it’s plausible to me that many of Kahn’s early moves were more general than specific. The most specific move he’s made in terms of this team and Rambis is bringing in Darko (and that’s turned out well). But, one move is the ultimate small sample size, so we’ll see what this summer brings.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Some good points
but, let me ask:
How many 6’0" or under scoring guards have ever been successful in the entire history of the modern NBA, and worth a top 6 draft pick?
I can think of one.
How many undersized scoring guards have produced in college and done little in the NBA, or ended up in the cba, d-league, overseas, or out of basketball? More than I can list.
If Jonny can transform himself into a real point guard, the list gets a little bigger – but that’s a big if, as the list of 6’ or under scoring guards who transformed into successful point guards in the nba is pretty short too.
It’s funny (in a sad way) how much this pick is like the picks McHale gets stereotyped as making (Ebi because of one all-star game, Brewer because of one tourney run, etc.).
I really hope he becomes more than Nate Robinson, or at least becomes as much as Nate Robinson, because he’s a guy worth rooting for, but you don’t draft a guy with the sixth pick hoping for that.
how many 7 foot plus centers
have actually made it in the NBA? Yet every time one comes around everybody still drafts them just in case they pan out. Granted Curry was the better pick. But there are so many more relevant arguments to be made against Flynn than his height. It’s starting to sound like a broken record.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 16, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not going to disagree
but just reiterate my point that in terms of selecting a player who has legitimate upside, leadership, and the mental fortitude to play significant minutes on a losing squad and not come out worse for the wear, Kahn could have done worse than Flynn (and, in all fairness, could have done better as well). Perhaps it was the mental side of it, in this one particular case, that elevated Jonny above other guys. Perhaps Kahn knew what this season was going to end up like and factored that into the process.
The triangle is a poor fit for Flynn, at least thus far, and yet he’s been remarkable for his consistency this season (even if it has been maddening on occasion), and has never been a distraction or voiced displeasure or otherwise disrupted the boat. Hell, if he could play any sort of consistent defense at all he would be looking far more solid, warts and all. I really would’ve loved to have seen Jonny in a run’n’gun offensive system, though. He’d still give up 25 points a night, but I bet his average would go up to the upper teens and his dishes would increase too. Oh well.
Oh ya, one last thing, the 6’ crap is meaningless, unless wingspan, standing reach, and hops are meaningless too.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Of all the available point guards..
…left in the first round, how could he have done worse? In any other year, I’d agree with that take, but with Jennings, Lawson, Beaubois, and Collison next in line, it’s not looking like the year to make that argument.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Half the league or more
let Lawson, Beaubois, and Collison go past them, I just can’t get that upset at Kahn for agreeing with most GMs in the NBA.
(The numbers people were all about Lawson)
Hollinger rated him tops in the class of PGs based on his PER projection whatever-it-is, before the draft if memory serves.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I guess the first 17 players in the draft
were taking by non-stats GMs, I didn’t want to go too deep in my last post, but if I’m not mistaken the other two were 2nd rounders, meaning the entire league passed on them the first time around.
Not everything is a jousting match.
Every response isn’t an attempt to diss your post. I just touched on Lawson because he happened to be taken later by easy league consensus despite some stat grinder types thinking he might be the best PG in the class.
If I was really on some sort of stats horse, I’d mention that Beaubois probably looked pretty good to those folks too, just based on Cuban dealing to get him. Mark Cuban is easily the most engaged owner when it comes to the dark arts of stats and that kind of thing. But I don’t really know what combination of things went into Rodrigue B’s scouting profile.
It was just a parenthetical remark, you know?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Oh, and no, Beaubois was a 20s pick.
Dallas took BJ Mullens and then did a swap. Cuban was motivated.
Collison went 21st in last year’s draft too.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
It's true
I was kind of thinking myself as I was writing it, but eventually I concluded that any of those guys could’ve bombed with us and Flynn could’ve looked a lot better elsewhere. I think it’s more about the system and the talent level than anything. Look at Ramon – our system took an outstandingly productive young player and effectively cut his basketball balls off (at least in terms of stats).
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
My Take
1) The Timberwolves suck
2) I hate the NBA – can’t remember the last time I actually watched more than a couple minutes of a game on TV
3) I love Stop-n-Pop and keep coming back to this site just to catch his take
Based on these issues I’ve decided that I like the idea of whether the Wolves can ever “not suck” more than really caring about the NBA as a whole.
Visit my D2 Baseball Blog - Northern Sun Baseball
Lololololol
Why in the hell are you here?
by College Wolf on Apr 16, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Waiting for the fishing opener?
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on Apr 16, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
and they have pics of girls in bikini’s ice fishing.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Salary Cap likely to be $56.1 Million
This has to be good news for Kahn’s summer makeover. I suppose more teams now have money, but they should be able to sign close to a Max player now assuming they could recruit one (unlikely).
This is good news
but you know, it’s just like the argument in the other thread about the CBA and player contracts. Now even more guys will get huge deals, and in 2 years people will be complaining that they don’t deserve it. But you know what? Everyone knows Amare Stoudemire isn’t a good defensive player and doesn’t deserve a max contract, probably, but someone will give it to him, and in 2 years people will be whining that the problem with the NBA is how much Amare is making.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 16, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Back of the napkin
Wolves should have maybe just over $14 million in cap space this summer, assuming the waive Gomes.
I have them at just under $42 million committed including their 3 first round pick holds, Rubio’s hold, and a couple of minimum holds to get to the requisite roster spots.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 16, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't you think
they’ll do whatever they can to move one of the extra picks into next year or the year after?
Yes
I don’t expect them to use all 3 of their picks themselves. But that won’t make a huge difference in their cap space, assuming they use their own pick.
Moving the Charlotte pick would save them a little over a million on the cap, but then they would have a half million minimum hold for the roster spot, so it would really only give them an extra .75 million or so of cap space. The Utah pick even less.
By the way, I based my calculations on them getting the 2nd pick, which they probably won’t. But it won’t make that much difference either way. A few hundred grand one way or another.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 16, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
By the way
I think they did the coin flips for draft spots at this meeting as well, but I can’t find any info about it.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 16, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice, Utah won the 3 way coin flip!
The results of the drawings:
- Utah (53-29) won a tiebreaker with Atlanta and Denver; Atlanta then won a tie-breaker with Denver – Boston (50-32) won a tiebreaker with San Antonio, Oklahoma City and Portland; San Antonio then won a tie-breaker with Oklahoma City and Portland; Oklahoma City then won a tie-breaker with Portland – Memphis (40-42) won a tiebreaker with Toronto – The Los Angeles Clippers (29-53) won a tiebreaker with New York – Philadelphia (27-55) won a tiebreaker with Detroit – Golden State (26-56) won a tiebreaker with Washington
$14 Million is much better than $10 Million
They could conceivably sign a guy like Darko to a 5-6 Million dollar deal and still have more than the mid level exemption. Probably couldn’t sign Darko and still make a run at Rudy Gay without doing a sign and trade.
I think it is bad news, two reasons
1) Just makes it easier for teams like the Knicks and Bulls to get one or two max players. If the cap stays that high, the Knicks can probably get their max guy and keep Lee.
2. The luxury tax will also be at a higher salary. This means teams like the Hornets have even less reason to dump salary in a bad trade to save money.
I didn’t expect the Wolves to get a big free agent, but now even trying to use the cap space to get save another team money is tougher.
This seems
correct. It diminished an advantage the team had over others, plus it hurts small-market low-revenue teams.
I'm not making this an excuse for Kahn
but I wonder if the cap not really dropping affected what he could do at the deadline. Last summer/fall, most projections were for the cap to drop to $50-53 million, but by the All-Star break Stern was reporting that revenues were much better than anticipated. I know last summer Kahn was counting on stealing a player or two at the deadline using his expiring contracts, it may be the several teams that looked like trade partners in October decided to wait it out and see if they could make things work financially. Not sure, just wondering.
Maybe the luxury tax issue will have a small effect
But we don’t know where the tax is going to be yet. Ultimately, I doubt it really will change much.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 16, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
In the big picture that is a good thing
but with so many teams trying to reduce their payroll the last year or so because they thought the luxury tax threshold was going to be lowered, it is really going to limit the steal deals this summer.
I believe
the luxury tax is going to be $68M. or 2-3M less than this last year.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 18, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Miami's one to watch
Pat Riley is practically baring his teeth down there. Did you see the letter he inserted in their last program of the year? His goal this offseason is to assemble “a team for the ages.” With this bit of extra room, they could move on three high-level FAs, including Wade’s re-signing. The Celtics, only younger.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
I saw the quote, but didn't know what it meant
because I didn’t see the new salary cap projections at the time, you put it all together for me. This really could be huge. If there’s a silver lining for the Wolves here, it may put more great players in the East (just thinking along the lines of NY, NJ, Chi, and Miami). If LeBron stays in Cleveland it will make it easier for them overpay Shaq for his 20 MPG as well. Even the Celtics could be more inclined to overpay Ray Allen to try to get one or two more good seasons out of that group!
It will be interesting to see what Riley does this summer. I’m just playing here a bit, but I wonder if he would consider taking over again as coach, using that to get a couple big free agents to join Wade??
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