Wolves Updates 4/30
by SG on Apr 30, 2010 1:44 AM CDT
Email
Print
Amick tweets that Ronzone to become team's asst GM, Flynn gets two votes in rookie balloting and more
From Jerry Zgoda/Star Tribune: Flynn gets two votes in Rookie balloting
The top five vote-getters in the NBA's Rookie of the Year voting were point guards, a group that includes Minnesota's Jonny Flynn.
Tyreke Evans of Sacramento won a relatively close victory over Golden State's Stephen Curry, finishing with 67 first-place votes among the 123 cast by members of the media to 43 by Curry, a difference that provided a 491-391 margin.
In the end, Evans received 67 of a possible 123 first place votes [release, vote totals], enough to earn the fifth Rookie of the Year award in Royals/Kings franchise history and the first since they moved to Sacramento. He was in the top three on every ballot. Curry (43 first place votes) finished second, Jennings (12 first place votes) finished third and the Hornets' Darren Collison (one first place vote) finished fourth. Minnesota's Jonny Flynn and Chicago's Taj Gibson each received a pair of third place votes.
From Sam Amick/Fanhouse's twitter account (via Wile E. Coyote):
According to league source, Detroit Pistons director of basketball operations Tony Ronzone will become Minnesota's assistant GM next month.
Also from Amick's twitter account:
Move is unrelated to departure of Fred Hoiberg, the T-Wolves' former VP of basketball ops who is now head coach at Iowa State.
From Bethlehem Shoals/Fanhouse: All the Pretty Rookies of the Year
From Charley Walters/Pioneer Press:
Two days before Fred Hoiberg accepted the men's basketball coaching job at his alma mater, Iowa State, the Timberwolves' assistant general manager telephoned Wolves owner Glen Taylor seeking permission to pursue the job.
Taylor not only gave permission, he told Hoiberg he would work on his behalf for the job. In return, Taylor told Hoiberg he expects him to develop some players for the Wolves.
Iowa State was the only coaching job for which Hoiberg would have left the Timberwolves.
From Rod Simons/Timberwolves site:
Hoiberg says he’s thrilled to be heading back to alma mater. I’ll never forget covering Hoiberg. We were down in the Wolves locker room after a regular season game and Hoiberg had dunked in the game. Sweet slam too. I grabbed some quotes from #32, ran back to put ‘em on TV with highlights of the dunk and the next day, Hoiberg was recounting the sports report to me. He watched and loved it! I was thrilled too! Very cool to have players taking interest in your work.
Whatever the case, we’re going to miss Hoiberg. He admits it’s been a tough decision for his family to leave Minnesota but that’s a job he has to take and it’s a town in which he will flourish! I agree with Wolves owner Glen Taylor and the team staff. Fred Hoiberg is a class act, a friendly and wonderful person.
96 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Good!
And thanks for the info, I really haven’t heard much about him before.
by Cedarpenguin on Apr 30, 2010 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks, that's interesting.
The Wolves of course also have what’s-his-name, the guy who runs the camp over there who Givorny just interviewed.
Aaaaaand what tangible results in terms of NBA talent have either of those two guys produced, would be the next question?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Jonas... Brother
I’m guessing he might have had something to do with them snagging Jonas Jerebko, which worked out well for them this year.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Apr 30, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that a Darko joke?
5 years ago, I would have been thrilled to be poaching a member of Detroit’s front office. Now not so much.
I'm not even sure it's a joke
Rozone was with Dallas from 98 to 2000, and then came to Detroit. He almost had to be among the biggest voices saying to draft Darko M.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Well, when in 98?
Did he have anything to do with Dirk? Because then, umm, sign me up.
Dark Love is a-Brewin...
Big friend of Donn Nelson, if you believe the writeups.
By all indications this is definitely the international scout of all international scouts. You don’t get written up in TIME without being a scout of some note.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Better than the O-Town of international scouting.
Which brings me to a “Making the Band”-related, talent-finding-reputation tangent: When was the last time P Diddy signed any actual intriguing talent (aside from the talented and classy Ms. Janelle Monae)? Kinda reminds me of Joe Dumars: once was on top of the game and regarded as one of the best in the biz at finding talent, but in the years since he hasn’t shown anything but high-profile failures.
I think Jerebko was a pretty good talent find lat year, which has to be credited to Dumars. It just doesn’t get attention because Gordon and Villanueva were so bad.
True
But that success is also overshadowed by the fact that he bid against himself and signed Rip Hamilton to an oversized contract as well. Not to mention the trade of Chauncey Billups for Iverson (which was actually praised in some corners for its possible cap benefits, which he promptly wasted). I guess Dumars’ problem recently is not his talent evaluation – Stuckey is a find as well – but his commitment of cap space to players that don’t fit especially well together and aren’t as good as their contracts suggest. He’s mishandled the cap pretty badly.
It's gone downhill for Diddy since he ran that Marathon
I’m not sure he was ever that great of a producer. He came around at the right time with the freshness of sampling (at least to the wider pop audience) and it’s easy to argue that BIG was the BIG talent in that equation. But Diddy did find Biggy, I guess.
Maybe Diddy should buy the Pistons?
Wish we had him in '08
when Ibaka and Batum went after the lottery. Hopefully the Wolves can land a guy of that caliber with 16 or 23.
Don't forget about Mehmet Okur in the second round
They also got the only good years Zeljko Rebraca ever had.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 30, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think drafting Darko was Ronzone's doing
I’m sure he scouted him and had a lot of praise for him, but from what I understand, the reason the Pistons drafted Darko was because Joe Dumars felt the team was set with what it had, and wanted to have a young player who wouldn’t be disruptive with their “five equal parts” lineup.
Ronzone’s real draft notables in Detroit are guys like Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, and Jonas Jarebko.
Add in the fact that Darko was highly touted already
And you get the feeling that Ronzone’s particular skill of “scouting by networking” wouldn’t really play into the Darko pick all that much.
Dark Love is a-Brewin...
More bio on Ronzone
He’s the foreign scout for the US national team:
Ronzone will work through the 2008 Olympics with the USA coaching staff on the scouting of international teams and the evaluation of players.
“Tony is considered one of the premiere talent scouts in the business and his strength certainly is international basketball. We are pleased to have him involved,” said Colangelo.
….His efforts helped Detroit land Serbia center Zeljko Rebraca, Turkey�s Mehmet Okur and Argentine shooting guard Carlos Delfino.
….Ronzone joined the Pistons after serving as a scout for the Dallas Mavericks from 1998-2000.
Plus, he is an utter Jock:
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Wow, how did a guy like this get profiled by TIME?
And could they have chosen a worse combination of title and photo?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Wile E Coyote had this article about the USA scouting angle
Interesting passage:
Ronzone has also started working with Synergy Sports, the video scouting service a lot of teams use. They will prepare video reports detailing every player Team USA will face. Players and coaches will have DVDs they can take back to their hotel rooms every night showing the guy they’ll be guarding the next day.
“The video element,” Ronzone just told me, “will make a difference. People are able to break down plays, see the offense and the defense, and assess strengths and weaknesses. We always say that video doesn’t lie.”
“When we play Brazil,” Ronzone adds, “NBA players might know guys like Nene and Barbosa, but they might not know as much about Machado. We can work with the staff Jerry Colangelo and Coach K have put together to make sure that everyone knows everything they need to know about everybody. Video, written reports, demonstrations … There’s no limit to our preparation.”
Bit of Synergy, and a big dose of your classic David Khan “work harder” angle.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
It will be interesting to see what happens internationally
The Wolves now employ 2 of the most active and respected international talent guys in the NBA in Philo and Ronzone. Perhaps it means nothing, but maybe they have a vision that they can succeed with international players.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 7:37 AM CDT reply actions
I just hope the wolves can learn to succeed with ANY players…
by Cedarpenguin on Apr 30, 2010 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which would put them squarely 10 years behind the Spurs and Mavericks on that.
Way to find the trailing edge. The idea is to find these things out when they still represent a competitive advantage over the rest of the league.
It’s quite interesting, though. Philo and now this guy. Is this one a Kahn connection?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
No doubt
It isn’t a revolutionary idea.
Here’s my out there question of the day, though: could a team successfully take it much further? If you are in a market that American talent is not attracted to, could you create an almost total international roster and have success? I’m thinking about Toronto, mostly, and they are already sort of doing it. But you have a great city that Americans are hesitant to commit to—but would be appealing to players who don’t feel the need to be in the U.S.
Not so much in Minny, but it isn’t impossible. If you can get good with internationals, can that feed on itself?
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Let's try it in Vancouver!
No. Wait.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Making an international outpost has been proven successful
by the Detroit Red Wings. For those who don’t follow my favorite hockey team, they’ve been Swede Central for some time now: Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Ericsson, Lilja… and many others over the years.
And what happened when Jerebko got drafted by the Pistons? They took him under their wing.
All of this is due in large part to one of the best international scouts of all time in any sport, Håkan Andersson.
Of course, following this model, to use feral’s phrasing, would put them squarely 20 years behind…
Dark Love is a-Brewin...
He was apparently right on Jonas Jerebko. And both Delfino and Okur (pre-injury) are/were having good years. I do like that he worked with Team USA – lots of respected basketball talent (players, coaches and FO types) to network with.
"Network" is the word
Read that TIME thing. The guy knows everyone.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
If well respected and well known, brings a certain respectability and outside pedigree
to the franchise. Now, it’s unclear if that would help attract any free agents…maybe Josh Childress??
In all seriousness, we have another idea of Kahn's style here
All “Network,” All the Time. Kahn himself just talks and talks and talks, and this hire would be in the same vein. The phones don’t get cold at Target Center.
(We’re going to sign and trade for Barca’s entire roster. We can trade Henk Norel for them.)
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
At the end of the day
I’d rather have the best international scout working for us than not. I don’t care if it’s not the leading edge anymore or not. Better scouts = better players. We need all the help we can get. Welcome aboard!
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
I wonder who voted for Flynn for 3rd place in the rookie balloting
I like Jonny and all, but no way was he the 3rd best rookie this season
I was going to try to find anything, some measure, by which Jonny would be third best rookie in the league
What did he distinguish himself for? The first thing that came to mind was “usage,” as in, “I am a rookie who burns lots of possessions myself when I’m on the floor.”
Jonny was fourth. Marcus Thornton edged him out. He wasn’t even third best in being selfish.
(He actually got to the line pretty well. Second-most makes, third-most attempts among rookies this year. Also: second-most turnovers!)
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
He received two third place votes.
I honestly don’t think there needs to be a discussion whether he “deserved” them.
No, there probably doesn't NEED to be a discussion
but what else are we going to talk about?
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Apr 30, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
(Yes, I am amusing myself.)
Figuring out whether Jonny Flynn was the third-most-selfish rookie in the league is not particularly heartfelt.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Wow, I didn't think it was that bad
I figured he might have been 3rd best in something other than free throw shooting. How about number of times a player made the “mopey face” after being pulled in favor of a backup?
He was #2
in steals / personal fouls ratio, just 0.01 behind Collison. So we’ve got that going for us.
by Madison Dan on Apr 30, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Ratios? Now we're talking.
Ration of calf circumference to height. Let’s not just talk rookies, either.
Jonny Flynn is like one of those little bowling-ball running backs in the NFL.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
The answer is 0.84.
Now what’s the question:
a) What was Flynn’s steals to fouls ratio?
b) What is Flynn’s ratio of calf circumference to height?
c) Both a and b.
by Madison Dan on Apr 30, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Two things I like about Jonny
1. Going back to how he is built, I think he could be one of these guys that can largely avoid injuries. He’s so compact and strong.
2. He isn’t terrible at any one facet of shooting. If you look at his FG% across multiple shot locations, he is OKish from pretty much everywhere. If he ever becomes excellent from one or two spots while staying OK everywhere else, he could be a pretty dangerous scorer.
And he’s great from the line while being a solid 3pt shooter. Like you said, he just needs to improve his shot selection and keep working on getting to the line more often. I could see him becoming a fairly efficient scorer down the line, one of those guys who shoots 44-45%, but whose efficiency is buoyed quite a bit by his 3pt shooting and FT drawing abilities.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
And yet we don't mention his assists, and things like making basic entry passes to the post,
and we’re talking about a 6’-flat guard.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
yep
if he works on his scoring, he can be the backcourt version of Craig Smith. (Yes, I am serious).
Yay?
And neither of you even mentioned learning to play something resembling defense.
It’s not Jonny’s fault we reached for him, and I’d be a lot more content with what he is and isn’t if we’d got him at about the spot we took our 3rd pg (and shipped to Denver). Oh well.
I didn’t mention D because I have no idea if he’ll ever become a good defender given the lack of polish he showed on that end this year. That still doesn’t take away from the fact that he has the makings of a decent scorer.
Passing? Who needs that when Senor Rubio is in the pipes :) In all honesty, I’m not holding out much hope for him improving his passing, because I think he is what he is. I think he’ll firmly rank toward the middle of PG’s in passing stats – better than the total hybrids, but nowhere near as good as the true PGs.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Compare his assist rate with Sessions
this year and tell who was superior.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Boggle Boggle Boggle
No, really…. I felt for a second there like Kurt Rambis had just picked up a game of Boggle and shook me, inside.
That offensive scheme. We don’t know what to think. The players don’t either.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Yup
He did about what I thought he’d do in terms of his shooting/scoring this year. What was disappointing was the stuff that feral mentions and non-boxscore stuff – the dribbles to nowhere, the head-down drives on PnR, the matador defense, the unforced TO’s where he’d step on the baseline or dribble it off his foot. I think that’s what has people concerned because some of this just seems like basic awareness stuff a top-notch D-1 PG should possess. OK, I was trying to be positive at first, but it’s tough to hold the line!
by Rascal Flatts on Apr 30, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
After thinking about the Ronzone rumor overnight, I had a few thoughts
- A good leader surrounds himself with talented people who are not afraid to say something in opposition. If Kahn hires Ronzone as the assistant GM and brings in an even heavier wieght guy for GM, he would appear to pass that test.
- It leads me to wonder whether Kahn was not working well with the current FO because he knew he wanted to bring in his own guys anyway. Not a good excuse, but perhaps he didn’t want to divulge too much to people who might be working for the competition in just a few months.
- As mentioned in other comments, I wonder how this jives with having Philio and Durisic on the team, both of whom have a lot of international experience.
- Ronzone might be able to hit the ground running somewhat, in that Detroit is in a rebuilding situation with a lottery pick. I wonder how much knowledge he has on US college players and possible FA guys vs. international prospects. Still, I am nervous due to the Darko pick and recent Detroit FA failures (Charlie V & Gordon).
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
I'd respond to your points
but I find your numbering system to be too confusing.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The blog normally does ‘magic’ where if you have a list of items starting with ‘#’ it turns it into a numbered list. Apparently when there is a blank in between – not so much.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
(It also botches blockquote tags if there's more than one line return within them.)
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Yep, but we need the click & clack version...
Starts out with point 1
then goes to point B
We could extend that to point 3 followed by point D
Then go into bullets…
I’m surprised it’s not already integrated into Powerpoint that way…
C'mon. Clearly Wile E is saying
that one cannot prioritize amidst those items.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
He had a "shadow government"?
It leads me to wonder whether Kahn was not working well with the current FO because he knew he wanted to bring in his own guys anyway.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Chad approves (rolling my eyes...)
Getting Tony Ronzone was a great get by David Kahn & Wolves. Tony has one of the best eyes for talent in the NBA and a great guy.
http://www.twitter.com/chadfordinsider
We already knew Chad was a fan, so not a shocker that he endorses it. Still, nice to see something positive for a change.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Doh - that was a reply to Xand1
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
At least it counted down correctly that time.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
quality hire
glad that Kahn is hiring someone with a true scouting background – I don’t trust any of the other guys in the FO to scout – stack – babcock – sichting – etc. – they’ve never shown any aptitude in scouting. Ronzone can claim several nice finds & even his biggest miss (Darko) could turn into a player.
My question is why did he leave Detroit? Why did Detroit let him leave? Director of BBall Ops to AGM seems liek a lateral move at best
by Jumping to Pass on Apr 30, 2010 4:15 PM CDT reply actions
Good question
Hard to believe it is about a big raise, since Glen is losing lots of money and likely isn’t going to pay top dollar for assistant anything.
Detroit is also losing money and the team is being sold. Pre-sale teams tend to trim down their expenses and long-term contracts. So maybe he saw some writing on the wall about lean times ahead in the Pistons FO. Maybe they want to show fans some ‘accountability’ but are not ready to fire Joe D, so they are considering letting some of his staff go.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
The number of projected NBA prospects
in Europe has declined significantly over the last several years.
This year, Donatas Motiejunas, from Lithuania, is the only non US player projected in the lottery. Miroslav Raduljica, Serbia and Robin Benzing, Germany, are the only other 2 projected for late 1st round / early second round. None are considered game changers.
Last year, it was Rubio, Casspi and Beaubois. Beaibois certainly showed up in the playoffs, but most would say Casspi disappointed this year. Rubio is still unknown.
In 2007, it was Gallinari and Batum. Again, role playing potential, but not game changers.
The facts are the early European success stories in the NBA have not been repeated in the last several years. That not to say there is not talent there – its just that the top talent does not currently predict NBA success (based on the style of play differences).
Most teams are pulling back on international scouting – limiting it to the major junior tournaments and Euro League play. I think Wile E Coyote makes a very good point in that Detroit is probably trying to cut out expenses pre sale.
Truthfully, unless Ronzone has domestic contacts, this was a hire 10 years too late.
PS – By the way, Babcock found and signed Jose Calderon when he was the Raptors GM. Babcock’s downfall was not scouting but poor moves after the Carter trade.
I disagree with most of this
First, nobody who’s paying attention would say that Casspi has been a disappointment this year; he had an excellent rookie year. I think I’d rather have him than Flynn.
Second, while there hasn’t been another Dirk Nowitzki, I disagree that things are drying up. Marc Gasol. Ersan Ilyasova. Beaubois. Rudy Fernandez .Nic Batum.
I think what you will see is more and more players taken in the 2nd round, so that they can a) stay over in Europe for a while without a team using a first rounder on them, and b) negotiate a salary as opposed to being forced into the rookie scale. Especially for the early entrants, guys who are 19, 20 years old. I bet at least a half dozen international players get taken in the 2nd round, and a lot more wouldn’t surprise me.
Some of them will eventually be good NBA players.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I don't pay attention
First, nobody who’s paying attention would say that Casspi has been a disappointment this year; he had an excellent rookie year. I think I’d rather have him than Flynn.
Let’s see, went from a 35+ minute per game starter to a 12 mpg player with 5 DNP-CD after March 1. Here is his March stat line
MIN FG PCT 3P PCT FT PCT STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
March 15.4 31-88 .352 5-16 .313 7-10 .700 0.4 0.0 0.8 0.9 1.0 1.7 2.7 0.6 5.3
Here is April
MIN FG PCT 3P PCT FT PCT STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
April 20.5 18-43 .419 4-13 .308 7-10 .700 0.3 0.0 1.2 1.5 0.8 3.3 4.2 1.2 7.8
I agree. He was excellent. Wonder what it would take to get him.
I didn't watch the Kings much, but I'd guess Casspi's numbers started declining
when Cisco came back from his “Trouble With the Big Rubber Ball” and started getting a lot of minutes mid-Feb.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, because 21 year old rookies never hit the rookie wall
so we should only consider the final 6 weeks of his season when asserting that he’s a disappointment.
Casspi showed excellent promise. He shot well for a rookie perimeter guy, showed toughness, and was under enormous pressure as the first Israeli in the NBA.
He was also the 23rd pick in the draft.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I nearly wrote all of this.
So I’ll just add my other tidbit. He was better than perhaps half the guys drafted ahead of him.
I’d argue:
Worse: Thabeet, Hill, Derozan, Henderson, Hansbrough, Clark, Daye, Johnson, Teague, and Maynor.
Something around even: Harden, Flynn, Williams, Holiday, and Lawson.
No NBA comparison: Griffin, Rubio, and Claver.
Better than him: Evans, Curry, Jennings, and Collison.
Disappointing?
Dark Love is a-Brewin...
No
the debate is center on your contention that he had “an excellent year” verse my comment that most would say he had a disappointing year.
How about David Thorpe’s ESPN rookie ratings? Had Casspi at 23 at seasons end. Cites loss of energy, lack of confidence in his shooting, and his public lamenting about “playing too hard” at the beginning of the season.
No one would have expected him to maintain the pace he set at the beginning of the season. Yet, no other rookie fell nearly as far.
So my use of disappointing may have been a little harsh. Mediocre would have been better. But it is a far cry from excellent.
Well, we can disagree about the quality of Casspi's rookie year
I maintain for his draft position and circumstances, it was excellent. At any rate, as I note below, I don’t much like the tone I took in this discussion, so my apologies.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I would go with solid
but unspectacular to describe Casspi. Which is right about what you hope for with a 23rd pick.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 1, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
And if teams ARE cutting back on international scouting
all the more reason to ramp it up and try to be the leader in that area. Take advantage of what other teams aren’t doing.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree w/EiM
Also: this is an assistant GM. It’s not meant to be a big-time hire, and it’s pretty clear that he’s not Hoiberg’s replacement. As for the other teams, at least some of that cutting back is partially financially motivated. If this team truly wants to leave no stone unturned, it makes sense to still have a partial focus on European scouting. Even if it’s the front-office equivalent of signing a defensive stopper or a 3-point specialist, it’s a useful person. This isn’t even mentioning that it’s at least possible the guy can do other things besides what he’s best known for.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Apr 30, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Kahn’s biggest criticism so far has been his lack of basketball knowledge. Criticizing the bringing in of a new basketball person as an assistant GM in any capacity just seems like sour grapes IMO. By all accounts he has a reputation as a good guy and good basketball mind. I don’t know how you could spin this as a negative move unless you have an agenda.
Jav Vesely was a possible Top 10 pick before he pulled his name and with another year of development he looks intriguing. Jerebko was a rookie last year in the 2nd round who came in as a contributing role player. In years where we have multiple draft picks I’m glad we’ll be scouring the international field for players that can contribute in slots 6-10 on the bench. This team needs bench players just as much as it needs starters. The fact that other teams are pulling back is even more beneficial.
I wonder about the agenda part, too
JaF’s information is great and definitely valued, but I wonder about his FO friend’s relationship to the previous guy and the new guy. Even if JaF is just relaying information, there is an editorialized slant to it. I’m not trying to offend or make you leave the site, JaF, but it’s not unreasonable to question objectivity when we don’t know the working environment in the front office. McHale is a much different guy than Kahn, and the way a boss relates to his underlings does affect their opinion of him. That’s not even mentioning that McHale genuinely seems like a good guy where Kahn could rub people the wrong way in close quarters on a daily basis.
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 1, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
my take is simply that
JAF is honestly relaying information that his friend is honestly conveying to him. That doesn’t mean that we all shouldn’t consider how human instincts will affect a persons take on a situation. Our perception is never 100% aligned with reality. One could say that no one’s perception is 100% aligned with reality.
If Kahn didn’t feel comfortable accepting suggestions from the old staff, then he needs to find some people who he does feel comfortable taking suggestions from. If he doesn’t do that, then he is definitely being negligent in his responsibilities.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 1, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
I think, above and beyond whether or not DK has any talent evaluating ability or not, that Kahn owes it to his role and to the organization to get the people he wants to work with around him. I don’t like hearing insinuations that knowledgeable NBA professionals question whether or not Kahn can hack it, but then again those same NBA professionals have thus far been a part of a group that hasn’t been able to hack it as well. So I’m kind of ignoring questions about whether or not anyone can evaluate talent and instead looking at the other stuff – and that is that DK should be getting the people he wants to advise him, to challenge him, to help him or whatever. And if some of the old guys simply don’t communicate well with him, then that’s OK. We’ve all worked jobs where the outcomes have suffered because we just can’t get on the same page with a co-worker, a boss, or whoever. It’s almost always best in those situations to part ways and find a better match. That’s my take on this.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Big Rob Babcock fan?
We can’t really know what Rob’s long-term record would have been as a scout. Signing Calderon may or may not redeem the guy who took Rafael Araujo as high as he did. The guy only had two drafts to work with, and of course fans can usually moan about the ones that got away…. His biggest draft success story was Charlie Villanueva, and Rob got fired a few months before they dealt Charlie to the Bucks.
If people who gripe about the “country club” thing wanted to point to a specific example, Babcock would serve okay in that role. Don’t you think? Went away, hired Sam Mitchell as his Minnesota connection coach, got fired, came back to the family? Independently of any ideas we may have about his competence, there’s a big strain of “loyalty first” there.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Sorry
did not mean to be pissy. As someone who has (I will not renew until after the draft) paid a bunch of $$$ for season tickets for some very crappy basketball, I hope we look everywhere under the sun to find some talent.
This is an OK hire. It does not, by itself, signify a turnaround.
And frankly, I am getting a little tired of the “the current FO does know a damn thing about talent” that has been creeping into these boards lately. That is a very broad, universal swipe that simply is not warranted.
With that, I think I will tune out for a few days.
Frankly, I should apologize
That “paying attention” crack wasn’t necessary. I thought you were a bit harsh about the Ronzone hiring, and responded in kind.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Apr 30, 2010 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we are all cranky from the losing
I’ll try to be more specific during my occasional rants re: our troubles in the draft. Don’t mean to slam anyone in particular including your friend.
The problem for all of us “on the outside” is that we have no insight into what went on behind the scenes. What were the trade-offs that were discussed? Which guys were not picked because of medical/background red flags? Which FO members had good insight that went unheeded? Was their any process for improvement, such that bad sources of advice were given less influence and good sources were given more?
For us we just see 5 years in the lottery, 6 lottery picks, and nary a single player obtained through the draft that (1) would clearly start on one of the playoff teams and (2) is clearly part of the core going forward.
Anyway – tune out if you must – but we appreciate your insight.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I was just looking at Rob Babcock's draft record.
It always strikes me how harsh we are as fans. I mean, Babcock blew the #8 overall on Rafael Araujo! The Bum! Andre Inguodala was right there! He went next!!
But: The Raptors had Vince Carter, who played Iguodala’s potential spot(s) and role, so if their scouts had Iggy and any other prospects in roughly the same tier they must have resorted to need after that. Vince was already making noise. Plus: Until you get down to Al Jefferson (as a High School pick) at #15, there’s not another live body from the ‘04 draft. And yet every team’s fans are going to talk about Josh Smith at 17 and Kevin Martin down at 26 or whatever. Why’d we miss that guy?? Because most draft picks don’t work out. You don’t hit every one. You just don’t.
The next year Babcock had the 7th and 16th picks, and they came away with Villanueva and Joey Graham. That’s not really a huge disaster as NBA drafts go, but I’m sure Toronto fans wouldn’t remember it that way. No, it’ll always be about the one or two guys who came through later.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
I think the Carter trade was the huge problem
Most Raps fans hate Carter much more than Babcock because he basically shut it down until the trade, but they got nothing for him and had to buy out ‘Zo because he didn’t want to play there.
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 1, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Because most draft picks don’t work out. You don’t hit every one. You just don’t.
Going off on a little bit of a tangent here, but I think people are too quick to forget this little nugget of universal truth. It comes to mind for me when everyone knocks the Flynn pick as an example of Kahn’s ability to evaluate talent. “Why didn’t we take Curry!!!” is the common cry, but in all honesty, can we really draw too many conclusions from that pick? I say no, because, as you say above, you can’t hit every pick. If you come away with a guy who is clearly an NBA player in some capacity, you actually did alright, because abject busts are more common than we like to think.
This isn’t necessarily a defense of Kahn, as he could well turn out to be a terrible talent evaluator (knock on wood), but it’s too early to slam him too hard for the Flynn thing.
That leads me to my next point: I wonder if Kahn is trying to hint that the real reason he picked Flynn was because he was going all in on a deal to land Evans. I remember that, all the way back on draft day there were talks about Sac moving Evans for Flynn + James Johnson, and if you listen to Kahn in just about any recent interview, you’ll hear him talk about how badly he wanted to land Evans. Putting 2 and 2 together, I really wonder if Flynn wasn’t necessarily his first choice at #6 in a vacuum and he was trying to hit a home run.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I wondered that too
I really wonder if Flynn wasn’t necessarily his first choice at #6 in a vacuum and he was trying to hit a home run.
It’s so hard to see through what Kahn says to figure out what’s legit, what’s spin or misdirection, and what’s salesmanship, but I can almost convince myself that he really was all in to get Tyreke last year and ended up with Flynn and had to make the best of it. Seems like some of the comments he’s made sort of suggest this, as you point out. I guess my own belief that he’s all in on Rubio and building towards Rubio makes me more inclined to believe that he really could have been all about Tyreke last year and then Rubio fell and then what? His plan may have been to do go Harden at 5, take Flynn and then try to trade for Tyreke. Tyreke and Harden would’ve been pretty sweet for us this year. I don’t know. At the very least I think the Kahn certainly identifies the guys he wants, and so far those guys have turned out pretty well (Tyreke, Rubio, and we’ll see about Turner). The big question is if he can get them.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
agreed
in that this hire does not signify a turnaround. My analysis of Kahn is that he will listen to “his” people and no one else. If Ronzone is one of “his” guys and he is a solid scout with connections, then great. That can only help to make better decisions in the future. With the draft coming up, I have been a big proponent of using our 2 second rounders to pick promising euros so they can come over at a future date.
That way we don’t end up with too many new rooks. This definitely helps that. Does Kahn need more scouting talent he trusts and will listen to? Absolutely. The key being that he will listen to them. I am not sold on him having trusted anyone from the old FO. Right or wrong, I just consider that a pretty concrete fact and I think it did lead to a lot of hard feelings all around.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 1, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Who are "his" people?
I hear a lot of people hinting at this, but what examples are there of “his people” who’ve got his ear in that way?
If he wasn’t listening at all to the scouting team last draft, what did Kahn do? Did he draw lots? Look at a mock draft? Scout everyone himself? He made a couple of draft picks and more trades than we could shake a stick at. Did he deal for Darko out of the blue, or did he have that “shadow government” he talked about giving him that name, or what?
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
I was just trying to illustrate
that anytime an exec comes in and all of the staff remains and he doesn’t get to insert some people he has a history with, the staff really aren’t his people yet. If it is his butt in the sling for each decision, it is much easier to listen to the opinion of a guy you brought in. Hence the “his” people comment. The people he brings in are beholden to Kahn and their survival depends on his success. The old staff likely knew that they might not be there and Kahn may have felt that they had little to no vested interest in the outcome, hence the overruling on the Flynn over Curry selection.
It’s just my take and not based off of any specific info, but it makes conceptual sense to me. That isn’t to say that the old FO staff didn’t each individually feel 100% behind each of their recommendations, but I can see how Kahn might have not felt that way.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 1, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
And your swipe was universal in return
Most of the posts on here aren’t claiming that these guys don’t know anything or that Ronzone is great; it’s more about the history of the team when these guys were in the front office. Where the team is at indicates a lot more about guys who have been here for 3-5 years (Babcock, Stack, Hoiberg) than it does about the guy who’s been here for 1 (Kahn). I don’t think any of those guys are dolts, but the front office in general did a bad job in reconstructing the team after the 04-05 flameout and they deserve part of the blame for that (most goes to McHale). It’s not exactly a stretch to say Babcock was hit-or-miss as the Raptors’ GM.
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 1, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Canis Hoopus
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Tim Duncan hates Kevin Garnett, apparently
- Mike Brown wants Jimmy Goldstein to ask a press conference question (VIDEO)
- Create-a-Caption: ‘Vengeance is mine,’ quoth Alvis
- Roy Hibbert wants to play for Team USA, seeks release from Jamaican national team
- Bucks forward Jon Brockman loves wearing adult onesies
