Let's Settle This: Whom should the Wolves draft with their first pick? (with poll!)
by PoorDick on May 11, 2010 1:37 PM CDT
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The results of the first LST seem to confirm that if possible, fans here feel that Al should go before Love (and we already knew that pride goes before a fall). Today's version is a little more complicated: Whom should the Wolves choose with their first pick in next month's draft?
Assume here that all players are available, and that the Wolves will choose the best player available, and worry about redundancy after the draft (i.e., moving current players to reduce potential log jams). Which player should they draft, and why? Let's hear it!
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I voted Wall
But really I want Turner. If you have the top pick, you take Wall, but then I’d want to see them trade Wall for Turner + asset or keep Wall and trade Rubio + asset for Turner. Either way.
Draft Wall, try to trade Rubio + assets for Turner
That would be a grand slam draft.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on May 11, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless
you feel that Wall is simply too gifted of a scorer and could play next to Rubio. I’ve been wondering this lately – if Wall’s above the rim game might actually work pretty well with Rubio. The question is who guards NBA 2’s, but with Ricky’s size and instincts and Wall’s sheer athletic ability it might actually work. The tradeoff question with Turner is whether he can work adequately well without the ball in his hands as much as he’s used to. If he can then Turner is #1 hands down. Rubio has shown that he can be effective in helping his team by playing off the ball, and my guess Turner can learn this as well. I voted Turner for this reason.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
I am with ya on that.
You put Wall out at point for a year and bring in Rubio in a year, and you have stellar 1-2. Then we either draft or trade Love/Al for the athletic 3 we need. Honestly a remotely good supporting core will look great next to those two.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 11, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
YES.
I really believe that Wall and Rubio would work — and be awesome. Watch a Wall highlight video and you’ll see him throwing down alley-oops from Bledsoe all the time. Sounds about right to me.
You would be a bit undersized at SG on defense
but probably on the tall side at PG, so hopefully the PG is disrupted enough to offset what is lost covering the other teams SG.
Rubio would probably guard SG
He’s 6’4/6’5 with long wings and serious off-ball anticipation skills. Still undersized, especially if he can’t bulk up, but not necessarily disadvantaged (wasn’t Rubio 2nd in Euro defensive player of the year voting?) Honestly the idea of Wall on-ball and Rubio off-ball as a defensive duo is pretty exciting to me, not as exciting as the nasty they would do on offense together, but still very exciting.
I hate to be contrarian, but Rubio is 6’3". I’ve heard 6’4" mentioned all the time, but in last year’s draft photos he looks near identical to Stephen Curry in both the lineup of prospects, and shaking hands with Stern. If you don’t want Curry guarding 2 gaurds, you don’t want Rubio guarding two guards. I woudl think Wall would be a better bet to guard 2’s.
Curry
Rubio
It's why my dream scenario
is getting the #1 and then moving into the #2 spot without giving up Rubio. I rotation of Wall, Rubio, and Turner would be perfect. You’d have a couple teams that might present a problem, but if Rambis rotates the guys right he can have the small rotation in when the other team is playing their reserves, and then the Wolves still have the advantage of talent if not height.
The reported 6 inch wingspan difference makes a big difference here. Curry has Trex arms – 6’3 with a 6’3 wingspan. I also disagree that Ricky is 6’3 because that’s what he looked like next to Curry. I’d counter that he looked even with Milos Teodosic in the championship game, and he’s 6’5.
It wouldn’t be ideal, but if you can convince Ricky to try it, you have to do it for a year. Get a big, athletic 3 and one big who can run and you’d have the most dangerous transition team in the league if you keep Love.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
From another standpoint
wouldn’t it be awesome to have a big PG in Rubio playing next to a big SG in Turner?
trading
for the 5 pick could possibly solve that athletic 3 with wes johnson. people seem to be down on him because he can’t make plays for himself but he would fit nicely next to rubio and wall/turner as a pure shooter who can run and jump…
by NuthinBurger on May 11, 2010 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes!
Or Ebanks/Seraphin if George is gone at 23. 16 is going to be a valuable pick… SOMEone of value will fall. I’d like to see Donatas, Henry or Anderson – but, if not, Udoh, James or Patterson will be there.
George
I love his upside and would love to get him, but do people think he’d be too big of a stretch at 16? and possibly gone by 23? and ebanks would be a decent pick at 23 but the problem is he can’t shoot the 3-ball which is something we sorely need…
i also like seraphin as a prospect, but after watching ricky spurn us for a few years- i’d like to see players now rather than wait several more (painful) years, but maybe he’d be worth it
by NuthinBurger on May 12, 2010 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
George maybe would be a slight reach at 16...
But if he’d be gone by 23 anyways, and you think he can be your 3 next to Rubio and Turner, then you go ahead and reach for him.
George or Damion James would both be excellent picks at 23.
I’m really warming to James, if he’s there, because of his defense and motor. I just checked out his physical stats (he was measured last year), and he’s damn near ideal for what we need – 6’7 and change, almost 7’ wingspan, big vert, tireless motor and he’s a decent 3pt shooter on top of it all. He sounds like a supercharged version of Gomes.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I actually don't think
George is a reach at all at 16. I could actually see him jumping up the board and going a bit earlier.
Seraphin
wants to be in the NBA as soon as he can.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 12, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
interesting
he sounds like a great favors consolation prize
by NuthinBurger on May 12, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I love comments like these...
They remind me exactly how much we have in the draft, and how many ways we can build a team through this draft.
Get’s me all excited.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
No harm in being contrarian...
especially when you look to be correct. I had always heard 6’4 but debatably taller, however, I think those pictures (especially the last one) sufficiently indicate that he is no taller than Curry. That said, scouts seem to unanimously agree that Rubio is a + defender (especially off-ball), while Curry is a -. So I’m not buying the “if you wouldn’t want Curry D’ing 2 guards you wouldn’t want Rubio D’ing 2 guards” argument. Additionally, Wall is probably not taller than Rubio so it doesn’t follow that he then becomes the SG in that duo. Wall is undeniably quicker than Rubio, but aren’t most team’s PGs quicker than their SGs? Thinking of Rubio as an inch or 2 shorter does decrease my enthusiasm for the duo, but doesn’t change how I would use them.
2 years, 7 months...
difference in age between these two. Curry was almost-definitely done growing at age 21, and Rubio could have feasibly grown another couple inches at only 18+, at the time of the picture. Hard to say, but yeah, that picture makes them look about the same height. Rubio seems to have a bigger frame on his body, that could maybe develop into a Hinrich-type defender of shooting guards.
For all the talk about his scrawny frame...
Rubio looks to have some legitimate shoulders. I wouldn’t be surprised if he starts looking a lot sturdier by the time he suits up for the Wolves.
Hinny was actually the guy I had in mind.
He's bigger than that now
He definitely broadened out this year. He is not a small man. He also has crazy long arms.
I don’t know whether he and Wall could play together, but I wouldn’t mind finding out.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Wingspan I read on the RealGM Euro board a while ago said he was about 6’4 in shoes with a 6’9 wingspan. That’s not the ideal size you want guarding 2’s, I agree, but it’s not woefully undersized. And basketball is a game of matchups to an extent, but there’s nothing that says because you’re a little undersized at one position you’ll get killed all game every game at that spot. Good team D can help cover up a lot of those issues, especially if you have two guards as disruptive as Rubio/Wall.
I’d be curiously skeptical. I’m still not sure it would work, but I’d sure as hell pay to watch them try it out for a year.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I know it's been beaten to death but
I still can’t believe the Wolves didn’t pick Curry. That’s a tough one to swallow.
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on May 11, 2010 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions
At some point skills trump physical profile
especially when you are talking about your backcourt. If Wall proves out to have great scoring instincts at the next level, then I say you give it a go with these two. They are two enormously skilled athletes with excellent length at PG and good ’nuff length at SG.
by Rascal Flatts on May 12, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
wall = d-wade, rubio = longer j-kidd?
sounds good to me. i honestly think a wall/rubio backcourt could be devastating, basically a pick-your-poison situation. to me, wall (IF he finds his outside shot and gains muscle/strength) projects to pretty much a dwyane wade comparison: lightning quick, get to the rim, jump through the ceiling athleticism. i’ve seen wall listed at 6-4 and wade listed as 6-5; i don’t think there is much of a height difference and wade has no problem guarding 2-guards (all-nba 2nd team defense). plus wall is only 19 and could still grow an inch or two! pair him with rubio (taller and longer than average pg’s) and rubio’s playmaking ability, and the wolves could actually become entertaining to watch once again. and if we do land wall and could somehow package any of CHA pick/love/jefferson/flynn/anything basically for the #4 pick and get favors?? look out! rubio, wall, brewer and favors could fly and put up 110-115 a game! plus get an athletic project big man (say…alabi?) with the UTAH pick and we could be set
silly penguins, acting all fancy
by sillypenguin on May 12, 2010 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions
turner
and don’t get me wrong, i think turner could turn out to be a really good player too and i would love to get him if we end up with the #2 pick, but wall/rubio is my dream scenario. takes us from slow and plodding 1995-style basketball to run and gun 2010-style basketball IN A HURRY. i’m basically envisioning something similar to the suns of 3-4 years ago with someone who we could go to to get his own shot with the shot clock winding down (wall). then it would just be a matter of getting them to play defense…
silly penguins, acting all fancy
by sillypenguin on May 12, 2010 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Either way you HAVE to draft John Wall..
It’s just a matter of if you trade him to another team or not. The ideal scenario that has been described numerous times…
Wolves Trade
#1: John Wall
Al Jefferson
Nets Trade
#2: Evan Turner
Brook Lopez
It's arguable...
that Jefferson for Lopez is a bad idea, straight up. I realize that Lopez is younger, bigger, and temporarily cheaper, but when both guys are healthy, I’d rather have Jefferson. I realize that Lopez killed Jefferson on Opening Night, last year, but that was way before Jefferson should have been playing in games. Anyone watching would agree with that. In their next matchup, Jefferson turned things around, and abused Brook to the tune of 27 & 7, in another Wolves win. (Not a common phrase, when talking about last year’s T-Pups.)
If we’re trading away Wall, I’d like to do better than that. Maybe if they threw in a sweetener like Yi Jianlian or Terrance Williams.
Really? I'd much rather have Lopez
Younger, more room for improvement, already draws more fouls than Jefferson, higher TS% in both of his first two years than Jefferson has ever had. Plus, added benefit that he hasn’t had a torn ACL from which he still isn’t (apparently) completely recovered. Not so far the rebounder Jefferson is.
Plus cheaper.
That deal is an absolute no brainer to me; I doubt very much that NJ would consider it, no matter how much they want Wall.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
It would be incredible for us, I think.
All of a sudden we have four positions locked up long-term. We can throw cap space and other assets at a small forward, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we have a phenomenal starting five.
Agreed...
I think a combination of Lopez/Love/Pekovic/and an athletic big like Eric in Madison’s BOY is a Championship level front-line.
I would love to see the Synergy’s Defensive stats on Brook Lopez. Does anyone have that?
I've heard a NJ fan describe him as
“immune to help defense.” Perhaps Al for Lopez is a more even trade than we’d like to think. Hard to judge a guy that young playing on a team that bad though. I’d trade either of our big men for him.
Yeah...
really. He’s not the scorer or rebounder that Jefferson is, and I don’t really know much about his defense other than that he couldn’t stop Big Al, when they matched up at Target Center last year, the second time.
I’m not certain by any stretch that healthy Jefferson is better than Lopez, but I think it’s debateable and therefore not worth downgrading Wall to Turner for the opportunity to find out. 12-70 is a ridiculously rare degree of suckitude, and Lopez played a healthy 82 games to contribute to that achievement. Jefferson is no proven winner himself, but I’m not going to have any delusions about turning the corner by adding New Jersey’s franchise player.
If I were higher on Lopez, or lower on Wall, I’d do the trade. But I think Wall is clearly a better prospect than Turner (even though I really like Turner) and Lopez vs. Jefferson is up for reasonable disagreement and debate.
Well, I'll let it go
because there is no way the Nets do that anyway.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Hard to say
They might be less impressed with the core of their 12-70 roster than you are. If they think Wall is the guy to revive the franchise, they might consider “downgrading” from Lopez to Jefferson.
Well, if you are going to put it that way
I’m not as impressed with the Wolves 15 win core as you are…
However, I’m certain they wouldn’t do it. Thorn loves Lopez, he’s their one building block, and even granting your premise that it’s debatable who is better going forward, Lopez is much cheaper. I know they want Wall, but it won’t be at the cost of Lopez.
Anyway, whatever. Either I’m right and they wouldn’t consider this, or you are, and maybe they would. I’ve been wrong before, and I’d love it if I were wrong in this instance, but I’m pretty confident I’m not.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fair
For what it’s worth, if anything at all, I’d rather trade Wall for Turner and NJ’s unconditional 2011 first round pick. Chances are, it’d be in the mid-lottery, and that’s a reasonable premium for getting John Wall. I think both teams would do that trade in a heartbeat.
I would say 2012 (since that’s when we’ll lose ours to LAC) but NJ will be better by then, most likely, and the pick will be worse.
I think I make the trade for the 2011 unprotected first
I think. I love Turner, though I voted for Wall and think he’s the no doubt best guy. Still, I think I’m willing to make that trade. Of course, there’s risk there; if the Nets rapidly improve through the use of their cap space (and Wall’s ROY season….) the Wolves could be stuck with very little return.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...
I forgot about their cap space. I’d still expect to see less than 40 wins out of NJ, and possibly less than 30. Unless they add LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Johnson, or Amare, I don’t think they’ll make any crazy leaps in the win/loss column. Since the Wolves already have Rubio, and Turner fits so well, I think I’d take Turner + 2011 lottery pick for Wall. Who knows, one big injury (perhaps to Lopez or the FA they pursue) and NJ could be right in the Harrison Barnes Sweepstakes (where we will already be with our own pick, most likely).
I've been thinking about that deal as well
What worries me is that if NJ gets some front office stability and a decent coach they may become a playoff team in the East. They were expected to win more this year but their slow start caused them to implode. If they get Wall, then they can trade Harris and use cap space to get pretty good.
On the flip side, settling for Turner makes sense for the Wolves, and you can justify the risk by the potential upside in next years draft. Worst case it is probably Turner and #16 next year for Wall, probably worth the roll of the dice. Maybe as a sweetener I make them take Gomes (frees cap space or avoids paying a buyout) and give the Wolves some additional cash. NJ would probably keep Gomes next year because they need players.
Man...
they’d have to make one helluva leap to make the playoffs. 20-year old rookies are not worth many wins, and I don’t think they’ll get a free agent worth the 30 additional wins to make the playoffs. I’d guess they’ll win 25-35 games, depending on who they get in free agency.
We are talking Eastern Conference
they only need to get to .500 to make the playoffs. Add Wall and a FA to the Nets and they may be as good as the Bulls. I know on paper they need to improve by 30 games, but I really think if they had brought in a legit coach after starting 0-10 they could have ended the season with 20 wins.
plus
they are in the eastern conference. 40 wins is the playoffs.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 11, 2010 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Is there any analogy to the Golden State-Orlando deal back in the day?
As I recall, GS traded the 3rd pick (Penny Hardaway) and 3 future firsts (one every other year) to Orlando for the number 1 pick (Chris Webber).
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 11, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
That ended up being Andrew Lang
It was announced at the draft as a future 1st, but it really should’ve been announced as “journeyman big to be named later.”
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 11, 2010 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd go Love for Lopez, too.
In this scenario. We need the size down low. Lopez/healthy Al is a good 4/5. Sorry, Darko. Then, you have Turner at 2, FA at 3, and Jonny at 1. Rubio comes next and things get more interesting.
by ChicagoViking on May 13, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Although
like Al, he accounted for the vast majority of NJ’s win shares this year according to BBall Ref. I’d do it just to have a more mobile 5 (maybe 4) out there. I think Al is fast becoming an obsolete commodity in today’s game – a dominant low post scorer with no D.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Is Lopez really more mobile than Al? He strikes me as just as much of a plodder, he just happens to be a bit bigger. He’s probably better against big C’s, but he’s not exactly a freak athlete.
I’m with Andy. If Wall has superstar potential, you keep him. 1 superstar beats two borderline or even multi-time, but non superstar, all-stars.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
dude!
you just call Yi a “sweetener”. ick. I’ll give you Terrance Williams…but if Yi is involved I might throw-up in my shoes.
100% agree
And the Nets may do this to get Wall. Flynn (then Rubio), Turner, (FA), Love, Lopez. For 2010-2011, add two more picks, Brewer, Ellington, Sessions, Gomes and you may have something. You make this trade and you need to look for some tall/athletic guys with the other 2 picks. You hope Jonny gets better, you have a rotation of Turner/Ellington/Brewer/FA for Sg/Sf. Now you need some bigs.
by ChicagoViking on May 13, 2010 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Take Wall and don't look back
No need to get cute here. Plus I would continue to sit on Rubio’s rights until the summer of 2011.
Yup. Praise the lord you get the chance to.
If you can manage to turn Rubio into Evan Turner, do that, but otherwise I agree, hang onto him. Spend a year trying to warm the two up to playing alongside each other, and if they refuse, then trade Ricky when his imminent arrival is a huge source of hype.
I know, right? LOL
Poster #1:Everyone knows that whomever chooses someone outside the consensus is doing it just to be clever and contrarian, even if they make a rational argument. Then everyone who gives them some credit (even though there is much disagreement, plain as the eye can see) is a “minion” of that person and can’t think for themselves and is obsessed with stats.
Poster #2: Totally agree, you are so right :D
Poster #3: Man, right on the the head again! You’re a victim!
Poster #4: What a bunch of idiots and parrots those guys are. They can’t think for themselves, and they think they’re so superior! We’re all way above that crap; it’s nice to know that dissenting opinions only matter and should be noted when they are yours. I can’t believe how right you are.
Poster #1: Thank god we’re the only people who get things right. They just can’t handle disagreement. The guys at Turdy Crapfest are a bunch of sheep.
Poster #6: Totally agree that the guys at Turdy Crapfest agree too much, especially with their immature leader!
Yeah
I should have resisted getting that dig in. It’s not worth bringing up in the long run and I know I shouldn’t let it get to me. I just have a hard time not scratching my “pot calling the kettle black” itch when it comes up.
Mea Culpa, I guess
I genuinely was wondering who voted for Cousins in the poll. I don’t read CH religiously everyday and I know that some people’s draft board analyses had Cousins ranked at the top. I was interested in hearing if anything has changed people’s evaluation of him as a prospect or not.
Carry on.
I am one of the 14
I could go for Wall or Cousins at #1, I have concerns about Turner (happy if we get him, just wonder how much better he could be than he is now), I have no idea how Favors will turn out and I think Wes Johnson is a horrible pick at #5, but fine at #15.
Turner is really, really good now
Upside is a term typically used for players that had mediocre to good college seasons, but are still young enough and athletic enough to project further improvement at the pro level. It’s less relevant for a guy like Turner, since he’s already been fulfilling his upside. If Turner replicates in the NBA what he did in college, he’s damn near a HOFer. How much more do we expect from the guy?
by Rascal Flatts on May 12, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
"Upside" is very relevant at the top of the draft
It’s just as important for players who had great college seasons. Going from a 4 to a 7 in the pros isn’t as important as going from an 8 to a 10.
If Turner replicates what he did in college numbers-wise, in the pros, then yeah, fantastic, lets take him #1. But I don’t see that happening against much better competition. With Turner my worry is that he is crafty and smart, but doesn’t have the jumping ability or acceleration to be elite in the NBA. Still likely a good player, but I seriously doubt he’ll ever be a HOFer.
Normally I'd agree
but Turner has too much size and skill to not succeed in the NBA. He might not ever be 1st Team All-NBA, but I could easily see him being an All-Star, great half-court player, much the way Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy and Chauncey Billups became. Body control is just as important as athleticism, and Turner has a ton of it.
And skill trumps athleticism every time. Skill + elite athleticism is obviously the best choice, but a guy with average athleticism and an abundance of skill is still going to be more effective than a talentless athlete like Gerald Green.
I see Turner as capable of being a 22/7/5 guy. Maybe not on par with LBJ/Wade, but up there with the those other guys you mentioned for sure.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Wall, wall, wall
I think he’s got a pretty unique set of skills (in that D. Rose category) and I think he’s a winner. He’s the type of guy you could build your franchise around. I like Turner too, so we can’t
Of course, I believe the same thing about Rubio. But at this point you can’t have too many difference makers regardless of position and I think someone will overpay for one of them.
In this scenario
unless pre-draft workouts show Turner ahead of Wall, you have to take Wall. I have been prepared to just take Turner and let Wall slide, but it appears Cousins is gaining some steam. It’s possible Turner could end up sliding to #3 or #4, in which case the Wolves might find it possible to trade into position to walk away with Wall and Turner.
Anyway, grab Wall and keep Rubio’s rights. Let Wall and Flynn play together next season. Hopefully they can find some way to leverage Sessions, the extra 1st rounders, and Love/Jefferson, and Brewer into Turner. Then if Wall is as good as advertised, hopefully Flynn can be moved in a year to make room for Rubio.
This poll, unlike your other one, is about a week early
Oh well, gives you another poll that you can put up after the lotto takes place (or maybe it won’t!)
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
I wanted to see what people said
before the lottery, workouts, and any trades. I’m sure there will be plenty of debate before the draft (and even more afterward), but I’ll put up another poll later on, if only to benefit SCIENCE!
Put up all the polls you want
It’s a little dead for Wolves news at the moment so we might is well bicker about fictional situations.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 11, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
How About...What position should Ryan Hollins play next season?
A) Center
B) Power Forward
C) Point Guard (it is David Kahn’s team, after all)
D) PA Announcer
E) Halftime performer (he could try either the plate trick/unicycle thing like that Asian woman or the plastic guy trick who stuffs himself into a box)
F) Ticket scanner
Maybe at 1/2 time he could quick-change
into an expiring contract? Or a + player?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on May 11, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The great thing about Ryan Hollins is...
Whether you’re a stat head like Jose Corobodadadado who looks at Win’s Produced, Adjusted Plus/Minus, etc…
Or an eyeball tester like TimAllen who looks at setting picks, defensive presence, etc…
At the very least we can all agree that Ryan Hollins sucks balls.
Ha
I of course was speaking figuratively, but if it’s also literal then so be it!
To be honest, I’d probably like Ryan Hollins more if that was true. We’re far overdue for the first openly gay athlete.
There are probably quite a few out there
But the sometimes homophobic culture of our men’s professional sports, and the fear of coming out on a huge stage, usually quashes the likelihood of that. I do get a kick out of the irony of the homophobia in locker rooms, due to the comically absurd level of homoerotic pranks or jokes that can occur in some of them.
From my experience, though, I can’t think of any person whom I’ve played sports with that is gay or has come out afterward. I do know a few girls that are gay athletes but have not come out; I think that it is easier (if not still difficult) for lesbian athletes to come out.
I know this plays to stereotypes, but every last gay male friend I have is involved in one or all of theater, dance, or music, and I question how many would be in sports as well. I just wonder how many gay athletes are reticent to join or stay active in sports due to the culture. It’d be nice to talk to someone who is a gay athlete, to get their perspective. The closest I can get to an understanding comes from an entire website devoted to athletes that come out: http://outsports.com/.
I've played sports with a couple gay athletes
they’re just like any other player – want to win, want playing time, etc. These two guys had exceptionally better stories than everyone else at the bar later, but that’s the only real difference I noticed.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 12, 2010 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
As long as he didn't get mad
and throw some elbows.
stockboy
for high shelves
silly penguins, acting all fancy
by sillypenguin on May 12, 2010 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Rentboy
for hypocritical crusaders?
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
That's Mike James.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
I am so looking forward to the first poll/post after the lottery
when we can discuss where the Wolves really are and what they need to do, it will be a fun few days of discussion.
wow almost no votes for a big.
well I didn.t vote that way either., but I liked the interview Draft Net did with Favors. If he is 6.9 in bare feet and watched MN growing up (KG of course) then he is definitely my pick at number 4. I was pretty even at Wall or Turner for number one. For a pick and Trade wall being the consensus number one could get us Turner and a “little extra” like a higher second pick (for us) .
I voted for Turner just because he fits our team better and he's a great player.
But I forgot that my original hope (and it still is) was that we draft Wall and trade him because he has a very high trade value and we don’t really need him on our team.
Depends how the lotto plays out
Only if the right team is behind us and is desperate for Wall I think you take Turner and be happy. I’m personally not as high on Wall as everyone else, but I think for the vast majority of the teams in the lottery Turner is the more coveted of the two.
1. Nyets. While they have Harris, they’d definitely be into Wall over Turner.
3. Kings. This one is tough. Maybe they’d take Wall, but both Wall and Turner pose issues for them because the question is who will play better next Tyreke? I can see them going Cousins because it allows them to match up better with the dominant bigs in the WC and keeps Tyreke as the primary offensive initiator.
4. Warriors. OK, you have Monta and Curry already. Adding Wall to that mix is like adding Wall to our Rubio/Flynn/Sessions mix. Something has to give. Turner would probably fit better.
5. Wizards. Dear god, they’ll take anything. Wall definitely would be great here, but with Agent Zero still there? At least you can play Turner with Gilbert.
6. 76ers. I think they’d take Wall in a heartbeat and move Jrue or keep him as a backup. But if they can find a taker for Iggy would they rather have Turner? Iggy could net them some other pieces and push them farther forward than drafting Wall and keeping/trading Jrue would.
7. Pistons. Wall hands down. They’ll figure out something to do with Stuckey, but they need Wall and his starpower. However if they landed second and drafted Turner would they give him up for Wall? Not so sure about that.
8. Clippers. Ya, they’d take Wall. He’d look great next to Blake.
9. Jazz. Turner Turner Turner.
10. Pacers. They’d take either and be happy.
11. Hornets. See: Jazz
My point is that Wall is a great talent, but it seems like an awful lot of teams would have to do some significant adjusting if they drafted him. Maybe that’s fine because he’s such a good talent, but this is also a new economic environment for the NBA and many teams really do not want to trade a Monta Ellis, for example, at 60 cents on the dollar because they drafted Wall. Turner may have less talent or a lower ceiling but he also fits with a significantly larger number of teams that have a chance at landing #1 in the lottery. I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that we’d be able to trade John Wall for Turner, despite the talent and star power difference between the two.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
Great post, but I disagree.
I really believe that every single team, if given the opportunity, will take Wall number one, even Utah. It’s the classic debate that reared it’s head in 1984: does Portland, who already has a young superstar SG in Clyde Drexler take Michael Jordan? or do they go for a position of need with a big in Sam Bowie. Every basketball fan on the planet knows the answer to that question.
The better way to make your point, is “Who will be the happiest with the number two pick?” because I agree, the draft could shake out in a ton of different ways depending on who gets the second pick. Much like you said so well above.
by SF on May 11, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
"Every basketball fan on the planet knows the answer to that question."
And yet, the Blazers still took Bowie and I think you’re giving NBA GMs way too much credit.
And years later took Oden
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
every time I remember this I tell anyone
around me that I screamed for them to pick Durant. And everyone’s response is “why wouldn’t you take the big man?” They say it with a glazed look on there face and I just slap my forhead and say because he is a transformational talent…duh.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 11, 2010 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
Hindsight is of course 20/20. Wall will not be a Jordan level star. Hell, we have yet to see rose and tyreke reach anywhere near Jordan. If wall were a lebron or durant talent, then it’s a no brainer. But he’s not. He’s an awful lot of projection and assumption. But that’s my opinion. If he were that level of talent you would be right.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 11, 2010 4:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
In the real world, you are right
a trade would be agreed to before the draft so the Wolves know exactly where they stand. But I think PD wanted to keep this focused on the players available, without getting to deep into deals that should be made (we’ll be having those discussions after the lottery).
Great post Biggity
I started writing something similar, but yours was a superior job.
The one point I’d mention is the marketing aspect, where John Wall >> Evan Turner. Starting next week, John Wall will lead off every story about the lottery. John Wall will lead off every story about work-outs and interviews. John Wall will lead off every story about the draft. John Wall will lead off every story about rookies.
John Wall will initially be a much better source of revenues. He will draw the interest of casual fans, and that will help bring in new customers to some franchises that desperately need them. I think there’s a chance that UTA and NOH might not swap #1 for #2 and incentive, but for most teams with a realistic chance of getting the #2, the question wouldn’t be whether they’d trade, but just how much they’d add to a trade. For example, I don’t worry that the poor Maloof brothers would make a swap.
It's tough
because on the one hand I’m becoming increasingly enamored with a Wall + Rubio pairing, but on the other hand I can’t help but believe that Turner’s personality and leadership would really alter this club as well. Part of what was so powerful about KG was that he really took the team and made it his through his leadership on the court and in practice. You knew who the top dog was, and I think sometimes guys played harder because they didn’t want KG to get on them instead of Flip. I trust completely that Turner is that kind of personality and player, and that is something that we desparately need. But the flip side is a breath taking talent in Wall who would be everything you said and probably more. So what to do?
I don’t have an answer or opinion yet. It does remind, just a little, though, of the Oden/Durant debate. I don’t think Wall and Turner are of the same talent echelon, but Oden was the more marketable and engaging of the two and Durant was quieter. I don’t know, I guess there’s not much to go anywhere with that. To return to my question, then – how much value do you place on the catalytic quality of Turner’s leadership vs. Wall’s outright playmaking ability? If I knew for sure that Rubio was coming I think roll the dice on Wall because you know that Rubio will provide direction and identity. But without Rubio, I guess I’m just not sold on Wall being a dominant enough personality. Reminds me too much Al Jeff I guess.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 12, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
The marketing is definitely in favor of Wall
If they are in position to get Wall, I think they have to grab him. I would hope they then try to get Turner as well. Ideally, I’d like to see them get talent, let them battle it out, keep the best fit and trade the rest in a year or two. It’s another reason to take Wall, even if Rubio proves to be as good in a couple years, they can keep Rubio and get high value for Wall.
Favors?
I picked Turner due to upside and hopefully more complete game with or without the ball in his hands, but just to be a Tpups basher, I should have picked Favors so we would have 3 PFs who are weak on D to go with our 3 PGs who can’t initiate the triangle O!
If we don’t land Wall or Turner though, I could live with Cousins or Favors and try to get Anderson or Henry with the Charlotte pick.
who say Favors is weak on D?
That is, I believe, supposed to be a strength of his.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 11, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Premature on Rubio
I’m not being fair to Rubio with the above post; we’ve yet to see if he can run the triangle effectively.
If Rubio can't run the triangle
. . . they’ll either get rid of the triangle or Rambis. He’s Kahn’s big bet.
Don't Overthink
Easier said then done in the off-season between losing seasons. But no need to overthink. John Wall. Don’t factor in whether he may or may not be enthusiastic about coming here (still miss you Curry) – and no wacky trade afterwards, or picking up another point guard to “build assets”. Just. Take. The. Best. Player
by Son of Gerald Green on May 11, 2010 6:57 PM CDT reply actions
I picked a guy off the list
oh well.
If it has to be on the list, I go with the more complete player, Wall.
We don’t have a complete team, we need wings and a better center, but
somebody has to run this train wreck. A guard with handles & vision is
needed, and that’s him. We still need a buy that can pop 3s from the
corner & up top. Ellington will have to be that man for now. My only
question is: is he coachable, will he follow orders? He’s also got
breaking and entering on his record. I don’t like that.
"It's not too far; it just seems like it is."
by WillistonCoyote on May 11, 2010 8:40 PM CDT reply actions
Jordan Crawford
it’s not every day a player comes along who can dunk on Lebron…
At 1, it is Wall
all the way. Then let the bidding start for Rubio. I know there is lots of hype and potential – I just fall back on how few top rated European players have become options A and A1 on NBA teams. There will always be a 1st – and it might be Rubio. But Wall’s path seems far more predictable.
The only team in the lottery that does not take Wall is Utah. And frankly, if Utah gets lucky, it is expected that they will likely trade #1 plus some existing players (to get some serious cap relief) while getting several young players/future #1 picks. (as an aside, think about what Utah might be able to get for a #1 plus Boozer in a sign and trade. Think anyone would over pay for that)
Wall’s initial rating place him higher than both Rose and Paul in athleticism, with comparable skills. That is simply too much to pass by.
At 2 we take Turner.
At 3 and 4, I am still betting Favors. (I think 2/3rd of the lottery will ultimately rate Cousins higher) There is a pretty good chance that Wizards, Warriors and Kings would take Cousins before Turner – so there is some possibility that Turner could be had a 3.
I am convinced that we will not pick lower than 4. If we get totally hosed in the lottery, I expect Kahn to overpay to move up.
With the 3rd pick
in the 2010 NBA Draft, the Minnesota Timberwolves select…..Evan Turner, Ohio State University. Bet.
What in the bloody hell does "thowed" mean?
"With the 1st pick
in the 2010 NBA Draft, David Kahn selects Wes Johnson of Syracuse."
“Wow Jim this is a great pick for the Wolves. They now have a dynamic pairing in the former teammates from Syracuse. The Wolves should now look to trade the Rubio pick to New York for Al Harrington and next year’s second rounder…”
“This is ESPN saying so long from New York.”
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on May 11, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
i hear
devendorf is available. hell bring gerry mcnamara to the wolves too, he’s not doing anything but coaching. if we take wes johnson over any of wall/turner/favors/cousins i will assume that kahn’s plan all along has been to just draft syracuse alums and convince carmelo to play with friends when he’s a FA in 2 or 3 years or whatever. trade for love and jefferson for hakim warrick and donte greene respectively, sign paul harris. and we all know rubio was only drafted so he could be traded down the line for…andy rautins!!
and don’t forget about derrick coleman’s fat ass!
silly penguins, acting all fancy
by sillypenguin on May 12, 2010 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I am really surprised how close the vote is
between Wall and Turner. I was one of the early posters say I almost hope the Wolves get the #2 instead of #1, at the time I felt like it was a silly thought, but looking at the vote it appears that many others are starting to feel the same way.
I agree; I’m a little surprised, too. I mean, nobody knows which player will be the best in this draft. I just think if you gave Wall two more years at Kentucky, there wouldn’t be much question between him and Turner. Maybe not, but he was better as a Freshman than Turner (although to be fair, Wall didn’t dominate). I also think, projecting forward, while both Wall and Turner have size that will be a plus at their positions even at the next level, and both have a high “it” factor, Turner’s athleticism will come back to the pack while Wall’s will still be considered a plus. That’s not a huge concern (and I consider Turner an underrated athlete given how big he is), but at the same time Turner’s still not exactly an efficient offensive machine like Brandon Roy was at the same age. I think if he can’t get over some of the sloppiness in his game, his ceiling may top out as more of a borderline all-star type—someone like Joe Johnson (not a perfect comp, but somewhere along those lines)—rather than a best-player-on-a-legit-team the Wolves need to find. And to be fair, it’s TBD if Wall or anyone else in this class is that player.
I think the top 4 are all pretty close, though. Any one of them would help. Hell, even in a doomsday scenario where the Wolves pick fifth, they should still be in position to walk away with someone from behind the “athletic project big man” door (Whiteside, Seraphin) and someone from behind the “wing” door (Johnson, Anderson). And for all the attention we (rightfully) focus at the top of the draft, we really need to hope they utilize their later picks well. They’ll move up with them, most likely, and we really need to hope they buck their long trend of choosing replacement-level players over good players.
It's hard not to watch Rajon Rondo...
and get giddy about the prospect of adding John Wall.
Plus, Wall gives us a Jonny Flynn get out of jail free card.
Same with Russell Westbrook in the OKC/Lakers series.
Considering Wall is something of a cross between Westbrook and Rondo, sign me up!
Yeah, Rondo’s a favorite of mine right now. It’s really too bad McHale didn’t hold Ainge’s feet over the fire juuuust a little longer to get him included in the Garnett deal. Oh well.
I was thinking the same thing the other day
Ainge would have done the deal too. Instead, McHale went for quantity over quality, hoping that like once before, the blind squirrel that he is may find yet another acorn.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
McHale really tried
but Garnett was too open with his excitement to go to Boston that it killed McHale’s leverage.
McHale should have leveraged KG's excitement then.
McHale makes the trade, not KG. That said, we’ll never know. But my feeling is, Rondo could have been part of the deal, even with Jefferson. KG still gave Boston the Big 3, and at the time Rondo had not shown the skills he has displayed recently. McHale got taken on several other deals and moves as well, which we need not even mention again here. That’s why he does not inspire much confidence, for me at least (even given the better deals he made).
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
Super Stars hold
all the cards. Remember, Garnett needed to be signed to a contract extension – he was in his last year. No one was willing to pay all that much for a 1 year rental if Garnett did not want to be there.
McHale asked for Rondo who, at the time, was actually playing behind Telfair. Ainge said no – he had to take Telfair. Ainge knew who was the better long term pro.
The irony is
that if you’re being completely honest (and unless they somehow win the title this year), Boston may have been better off not extending him and just renting him for that title year. Of course that would never happen, but if they had cap space I’d imagine they’d be a prime free-agent destination this offseason.
KG is still the key in Boston
good signing. I see them making the Finals — Celtics/Lakers. KG worth every penny.
by ChicagoViking on May 13, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, we'll never know so no point in arguing one way or the other I guess
But I don’t necessarily agree that McHale “had to take Telfair.” In the end, could McHale have gotten a better trade elsewhere? I think he could have at least gotten one All-Star quality player for trading KG. Al may be close but the rest of the pack in that trade, where are they now? McHale sold low.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
The only other real offer
was from the Lakers centered around Bynum. Not sure that was a better package.
Don't you think
Bynum is the better player between those two?
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 13, 2010 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Kind of off topic, but it’s also TBD if Roy is the best player on a championship team also. I definitely don’t consider him on the level of the true superstars like LBJ/Wade/Duncan etc. I think Turner can be on his level in the NBA, no problem. Athleticism, at least, won’t hold him back from equalling Roy. Whether or not he can transition as well as Roy did is up in the air, but he’s got some traits Roy doesn’t.
I do think Turner will prove to be bigger, and probably a better defender and rebounder than Roy. IIRC he also carried a higher usage rate than Roy through college. I’m not looking at the stats right now, but I don’t recall there being a big discrepancy in efficiency between the two last time I checked. Turner turns it over a lot, but other than that he shoots very well from the field and gets to the line well while not launching tons of 3’s to drag down his efficiency.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
re: Roy
It’s a dead horse, I know, but how would a team with Roy and Rubio do? Perenial 3-4 seed, and occassional 1-2 seed?
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 12, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
That hypothetical doesn't really work
No way a Wolves team with Roy (and probably KG) finishes with a top-5 pick. Not to mention that Foye was part of the deal for the #5.
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 12, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Ya
I guess I wasn’t thinking if that was actually true or actually could happen. Rather just how a hypothetical team of those kinds of players would do.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
I still think it comes down to
How well can the other guy play without the ball, and does having one of them off the ball mitigate their effectiveness? Roy is still at his best with the ball in his hands, he’s at times their de facto PG. Though he’s been okay at SF at times too, so that’s a plus. I think he’s versatile enough to make that tandem work. Rubio’s shooting would be very important in giving them more options in that situation.
I'm starting to wonder if you are right about the top 4
being closer than was thought a couple months ago. This may be similar to the 2008 draft, with good, not great, players going 5-6 deep, and also depth farther down.
2 things
Drafting Turner at #1 and holding out for Rubio (not trading him) would/could be the top 2 collossal mistakes this franchise ever makes. The consensus among experts is that Wall will be an elite PG in the NBA. Those same experts doubt the shooting ability of Turner. Hmm…. A hall of famer or a guy who we think fits our system. Hmmm…. Let me think about that one ;-)
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
You're right, I think that's the bigger risk.
What if Wall reaches expectations, Turner doesn’t become an All-Star, and Rubio forces a trade for pennies on the dollar? All three outcomes are not at all far-fetched, and that would completely sink the franchise.
Take Wall.
I am SHOCKED
that Turner has now passed Wall in the voting. That’s just crazy to me
by Blakeley on May 12, 2010 9:04 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree
as much as I love Turner, that’s tough to understand.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Wall is the closest thing this draft has to a sure thing. I’d be happy with Evan Turner and excited about John Wall.
3rded. I voted Wall. He’s the choice, hands down. Luckily, that jives with what JAF is saying he’s heard in the FO. I think Kahn knows the supreme importance of landing a superstar and not taking a likeable guy that fits (like McHale would have).
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
The big mistake
mentioned earlier, is if Kahn drafts Wall and sits on Rubio. Rubio needs to be packaged and moved ASAP while his value is so high to get other assets.
yeah
hopefully with some other assets to nab turner (a man can dream).
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 12, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with this
First of all, I don’t think he value is at its highest; I think his value gets higher the closer he gets to actually coming to the NBA. Of course, that has to be balanced with the Wolves being better off getting something for him sooner rather than later.
Second, there’s an argument that a Wall-Rubio backcourt is absolutely the best situation the Wolves could get given having those two assets. It depends, obviously, on what they could get for Rubio, but my sense is that the offers will not measure up to what I believe his value is on the court.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I have thought about a Rubio-Wall back court a lot. After pondering, I don’t think it would happen. Imagine if we got Wall and he ends up being a stud (which he will). He plays PG his first year, does an awesome job. Then Rubio decides to come over the following year. You think Wall will just hand the PG keys to Rubio and move over to the 2 guard? I would think that there would be some egos and feelings that would need to be worked through. My honest answer would be no way in hell would Wall want to move to 2 guard. That is why if we do land the top pick, we need to be taking advantage of Rubio’s high trade value coming off a Euro championship and shop him up until the draft, including draft day. Then if you don’t end up trading him, you wait and do it again at a later point. Long story longer, if we get Wall, I either see us trading Rubio or there will be a huge huge ego issue to deal with at some point if/when Rubio comes over. Maybe if we get Wall, we should play him at the 2 guard some his first year.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
If we draft Wall,
I think there’s a solid chance that Flynn-Wall will be your starting backcourt in Year 1. It’ll pave the way for Rubio-Wall. Hard to say though — I agree that Wall might be hesitant to learn point guard, then switch.
Though, that’s exactly what Allen Iverson did when he came into the league, and he did pretty well after moving off the ball.
I'd keep Flynn-Wall for a year
then if one is a sure thing starting PG, trade the other to make room for Rubio. Do the same in a couple years between Rubio and whoever stays.
Disagree completely
Saying there will be a ‘huge huge ego issue’ with Wall and there ‘would be no way in hell’ Wall goes to the 2 when Rubio comes over are wild guesses/rampant speculation. IF Wall has a huge ego and IF he is a Wade-level star I still don’t see any problem. First, Wall played with Bledsoe (first round PG) last year and there was no apparent problem. Second, Wall played off the ball a lot at Kentucky. Third, ego (if there) is fed by scoring, so why wouldn’t Wall want to play with a guy likely to average double digit assists and not need to score much? Fourth, Rubio can’t play 48 so he’ll still get PG time. Fifth, IF he is that good he’s the Man and the Man eats first, and Rubio feeds the man all day. So, I see no problem whatsoever. Of course, we aren’t getting Wall, so I’m not going to get my undies in a bunch about it :)
And, I am going to say this as often as possible: Do not trade Rubio. Do not trade Rubio.Do NOT trade Rubio.
I'll hold your monkey.
Wall didn’t play “off the ball” that much as a freshmen. He did play with Bledsoe, yes, but Wall was the primary point guard. Bledsoe played the combo guard roll. I just think first and foremost Wall is a PG. If he becomes an established PG on this team and then is asked to step aside out of position simply because of a promise that Kahn made to Rubio, I know I’d be pissed. You think Rose wouldn’t be pissed or demand some sort of trade if they somehow acquired Rubio from us or they somehow got Wall or another established All Star PG? That being said I HOPE Wall has the potential to play either position and can live with either. I just happen to think he’s a point guard pure and simple and if by the grace of the good lord above we get him, he will be an all-star the first year. You would gamble on bringing in a possible replacement in that scenario? I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot stick personally.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
Maybe
I think Rose is more ball dominant than Wall or Rubio would be under our pseudo-triangle system. I watched maybe 5 Kentucky games and maybe 5 Barca games and my impression was that both Wall and Rubio played off the ball much, much more than I anticipated going in. Perhaps I am misoverestimating :)
Nonetheless, if Wall is going to be a 25ppg guy I don’t see a problem with him running the point for 12 minutes and being the Man for 24. Kind of like Wade – a guy who scores, but dominates the ball/runs the offense when he takes over. Perhaps I am just forcing my own agenda since I would be thrilled with even one of them playing for us, so why not both?
I'll hold your monkey.
Hell ya I would take one and be ecstatic. Either one. I have a nagging feeling that we’ll see neither though. What a downer. I think this franchise NEEDS one or the other. I think the best odds of that happening are going all in for Wall. I don’t think Rubio will ever play for us. We’ll either trade him or he’ll just stay overseas as in 2011 the league will have some major lock out issues to overcome. Hell I hope you’re right though. I’d love to have them both. I just don’t see Wall as anything but a PG though. I think he’s more Rondo/Rose than Iverson.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
I agree
I don’t see how acquiring John Wall forces the Timberwolves to do anything at all. If Rubio says that he won’t play with Wall, whatever — we’ll trade him when he buys out of his contract and can actually join an NBA team. The biggest red flag with Rubio is his buyout situation — when that is removed his trade value has to skyrocket.
That said, if something like Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio can land us a potential superstar (Blake Griffin, maybe?) I would certainly listen to th offer. I just doubt that Rubio standing alone will bring back a ton, right away.
You have to consider...
That at some point, David Kahn will be fighting for a job. He has to show progress sometime soon. If the Wolves have both Wall and Flynn at the point, I don’t think he’ll hesitate to trade Rubio for someone that can help right away.
Was Kahn’s contract only 2 years?
Taylor is Loyal
And unless Kahn makes a colossal screw up, I think he gets a longer leash than the normal GM would.
3 years
And it really depends on what “progress” means. The guy’s been here for a year and is clearly not going for win-now deals, nor should he be. The team needs to get better players and show improvement in becoming a viable uptempo team for it to be considered progress. They don’t necessarily have to be in the playoffs at the end of his first contract.
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 12, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
It does not force
them to move Rubio. My point though is that they should move Rubio ASAP if they do get lucky and draft Wall.
Rubio can’t play for us in 2010-11. I am betting serious money that he does not play for us in 2011-12 because of the lock out threat. (Sorry – I am being a little redundant – I said this elsewhere – why payout for the buyout, then get locked out?)
Why would you not try and create a bidding war for him now, rather than wait 2 more seasons? (Every player carries some threat of injury that shortens career – which needs to be factored in too)
Rubio is an appreciating asset
If they get John Wall, awesome. They still won’t trade Rubio this year. He’s not going to get worse before summer of next year, and that’s when we can get fair value back. Nobody will enter a bidding war for a player they can’t have yet, unless it’s the Nets scrimping until they move.
If they get Wall, then they need a good shooter right away so Wall has someone to pass to—either a free agent or they can trade a PF for one. And then next year, after a year of Kahn saying he thinks they can play together, they’ll trade Rubio for a top 5 pick.
Whiteside or Udoh at #16, by the way. Big defensive players cost too much to trade for, and this would be a good draft slot to take one. Then Pecherov can back up both Darko and PF. With the Utah pick, take a flyer on Paul George or the Xavier kid who dunked on LeBron.
I assume you mean
Pekovic instead of Pecherov who happens to be a FA and will not be resigned?
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 12, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Pekovic, yes!
Not Pecherov. Although he did play well in the Celtics game. That one time. Way at the beginning of the year.
Its how the question is phrased
It does not say, “If the Twolves get the #1 overall pick in the draft, who should the draft?” If that were the question, I bet 80%+ say wall.
The question is “Whom should the Wolves draft with their first pick?” Most likely, that is pick #2 overall – and as I said earlier – Wall will be gone. Which is why I said Turner.
Another reason that Turner stands out
is that he can probably start at three positions, and improve what the Wolves currently have at each one. Which gives the the Wolves some flexibility in future personnel moves, especially if they move Sessions, Flynn flops, and Rubio’s arrival is delayed even further.
My take: I'd rather see...
…either Rubio + Turner
…or Wall + Turner…
Than a Rubio + Wall combination.
It is just gonna work better on the floor. How you get there is gonna be fluid, and a good challenge for the front office. But that is the way I would play it.
One reason is better & more flexible defense. Other reason is complementary style of play & emotions.
Voting on fit vs talent
Wall should be #1 – figure everything else out later.
by Breaking Ankles on May 12, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Andy G and others
It would be next to impossible to pass on Wall. Rajon Rondo has probably become a Top 10 player in the league without a Jump-Shot and Rondo lacks Wall’s explosion. Wall also seems to have better Defensive instincts than Derrick Rose. Try Ricky and John Wall if you have too.
Where as I’m tending to doubt Evan Turner has the ability to become a Top 10 player in the game. He’ll be a very good player no doubt. I just don’t see the upside.
I think a lot of people are having the train of thought “not another point guard!”. They can’t get past that. If we were a playoff team right now then maybe that arguement has some merit. But we suck. Best Player Available Period. Especially when that player has Wall’s potential. The Detroit Lions have one of the best WR’s in the league (Calvin Johnson). Should they have passed on him simply because they had taken WR in the first round the last couple times? No.
Your 2010 Wolves Starters: Wall, J. Anderson, Granger, Al, Whiteside
Another blemish on Evan Turner...
From his twitter feed:
“thekidet: Watching beverly hills chihuaua and its not that bad of a movie”
I’m just saying…
It's due to the prolapsing eyeballs on his medical report.
Or on the dogs’ medical reports.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Remember when. . .
this year was supposed to have the great draft and last year the lousy one? Hell, Brandon Jennings changed the Bucks’ whole outlook at, what, the 10th pick, and this year, if we don’t get Wall, then it’s the poor-shooting shooting guard who likes Beverly Hills Chihuahua or the third coming of Derrick Coleman.
While I don't endorse drafting for need
I can not watch another year of the Wolves with the same wing play. Drafting Wall and a big with the top picks dooms us, I think, to never getting a SG/SF rotation that will be championship worthy. Oh sure, there are trades and free agents, but I need proof that we have assets that will return excellent, not good, players at those positions. I voted Turner. Even then I am concerned about how we upgrade from a horrible perimeter shooting team. The pick I fear is Favors, since I am not sure how you turn Love and/or Jefferson into the wing you need, and I’m not sure Favors is even going to contribute for a while. How is next year’s team any more than minutely better with Favors on it? (And I might even take Favors before Cousins).
Don’t you think that if we get Wall, we may not necessarily need excellent, i.e. star, wings? Even if you do, we’re not going to fall out of the top 10 next year, a draft which seems to have some very good wing prospects, and we’d have Flynn/Sessions/Rubio/Love/Jefferson as assets. Some combo of our available assets should be able to net us a vet like Iguodala or Granger, or even Gay via a sign and trade. Taking Wall doesn’t preclude us from upgrading the wings. It leave some things to chance, but, unfortunately, so does taking Turner. We would still need to hope Ricky comes over and we still need to resolve the PF/C issue either way, so if there’s a shot at landing a superstar, I think you have to jump on it and figure the rest out later.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Agree
You don’t need two perimeter superstars. If Wall becomes a star scorer/playmaker, then what he needs is one wing that can shoot and another that is a defensive specialist. While it’s never easy to find legit talent in the NBA, these are two of the easier types of players to go find. The Wolves have just done a terrible job at it over the years. Freakin’ Golden State on the hand seems to breed them like rabbits. Their cup overfloweth with shooters and wings, some of whom were 2nd rounders or undrafted.
by Rascal Flatts on May 12, 2010 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
They’re damn good at finding talent, but they seem to not recognize the value of the talent they find and love to trade it away. Just something to think about..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
True
but they are also ravished by injuries every season it seems like, so they never get a core group of guys to build on year after year. Curry+Ellis+Azubuike+Randolph+ Biedrens/Turiaf could be a really explosive squad at some point in the future if they all can stay healthy.
by Rascal Flatts on May 13, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
No, I think we'll need stars on the wing
Wall is not a one man show. Of course, I’m coming from this thinking Jefferson needs to be moved due to defensive deficiencies and inefficient offense for a post player. That said, The Wall version of the Wolves has a defensive, and ultimately limited big (Darko) at center. If he doesn’t resign there are real problems. The PF is highly productive but not a go to scorer. The wings are not even starter quality. I don’t see enough scoring. Does moving Jefferson and Flynn net a star wing? How’s the team depth behind Love and Darko? Of course, if I didn’t think Rubio is going to be great I wouldn’t be arguing this at all. Maybe he doesn’t come, but maybe he’s our most valuable asset (if used in the future).
It just seems that we have big holes to fill regardless of who we take. My question is, when all is said and done and we have a core established that we are comfortable going forward with, is your team’s ceiling higher building it around Wall or Turner? If Wall’s individual ceiling is higher, it makes more sense to me to take him given the value of stars in the NBA. I understand if you think Turner has a higher ceiling or a more likely chance of being a bigger impact player, but if not, I just can’t get behind going for need.
I think there will be at least a few capable, if overpaid, wings out there (like the guys I mentioned) available for the right package of assets. Teams looking to move fringe all-stars on big deals typically want some combo of cap relief, picks and young players, all of which we would have.
Just to throw something out there, but if we draft Wall, wouldn’t we be able to offer a better package than anyone in the league for Granger? He’s not a superstar, but I think he would be ideal next to Wall. Not going to speculate on what it would take, but he’s clearly not leading that team anywhere and we’ve got plenty of young talent and cap space to offer in a trade.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
A mid-round pick and a modest FA signing
would still represent a colossal leap up from where the team spent all last season at the 2 and 3.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
we should start drafting twelve year olds
because Lebron is whining about teammates so him and bosh are going to team up and go some where, maybe Miami.
by Twolves for ever and ever on May 12, 2010 10:55 PM CDT reply actions
Draft Wall
and trade Rubio and Love for Turner. Some will cry that it’s overpaying, but I don’t think so. Then maybe ship Jefferson to DET for their pick and take Wes Johnson. Sessions could be shipped for something. Take BPA with the 16 and 23 or even trade them to move up into the top 10 again.
The point is, if we get #1 and draft Wall, we hold the deck.
Boy
talk about putting all of your eggs in one basket.
by Rascal Flatts on May 13, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...
the Wall-Turner-Johnson trio might be good in 4 years, but by that time, one will have either busted or left the Wolves, and we’d have suffered through 3 more lottery seasons. If we trade Love AND Jefferson, this off-season, there had better be some veteran talent coming back in those trades.
I respectfully disagree
OKC has Durant and the sublime Westbrook, and sublimer Harden, but there isn’t a whole lot of veteran towel wavers on that 50 win team. Wall-Turner-Johnson would not be as good as the Thunder’s young trio, but the drop-off wouldn’t be that dramatic to lock them into the lottery.
Besides, we just suffered through a 15 win season, and most of the losses weren’t even close. I think wiping the slate clean and starting over is a risk worth taking, and it’s not like the potential downside is a whole lot worse than where this team is at.
There is no way
a lineup of
Wall/Flynn
Turner/Brewer/Ellington
Johnson/Brewer
Nobody
Darko
is equal to the Durant-led Thunder. I don’t even think they’re equal to
Rubio/Sessions
Turner
Anyone swapped for Jefferson+/-Flynn
Love/Any mid round pick
Darko
Turner/Johnson could easily equal Westbrook and either Harden/Green. The problem is Durant. Wall could reach his level, but it’s not likely. That dude’s just a force.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Absolutely agreed
But the proposals weren’t about giving away the farm to get Durant, it was dumping Rubio, Love, Jefferson and Sessions for Turner and Johnson and whatever bench player you get for Sessions.
Not sure what you mean about Durant. I’m saying that’s a nice core, one potentially in line with OKC, but I don’t like that it guts our roster and leaves us with no known quality bigs. Not a good use of our assets, IMO.
Moving Al just to move him is a bad idea. Especially for an unproven 22 year old rookie. How bad does that deal look if Johnson never pans out?
Personally, I kind of wonder if Al’s deficiencies wouldn’t be easier to cover up if we surrounded him with better talent. I think he’s going to be hard to move because of his contract and subpar play due to his injuries. I don’t necessarily want to move Love, but I wonder if he may be the one that goes because he can get us more – he’s clearly talented AND he’s cheap and young. However, he’s also flawed (can’t create, bad defender) and redundant on our team.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Let the record show
that I never said that line-up would be equal to the Durant-led Thunder. Plus, you’re assuming a level of competence with Wall, Turner, and Johnson that is difficult to accurately predict at this point (just ask Portland if they would reevaluate Durant versus Oden at this point).
what kind of wing are we realistically gonna get for Al?
it ain’t gonna be Granger or anyone like that. I think Wes Johnson is fair value at the point. but hey, I guess that’s just me.
I guess...
where I would differ from “John Wall” (poster, not prized draft prospect) is that after getting Wall and Turner, I’d keep Jefferson and forget about Wes Johnson.
Wall
Turner
Brewer
Jefferson
Darko
is talented and young enough to go forward. They’d still be a lottery team next year, when we could add some sort of final building block. Plus, we don’t lose our 16th Pick in his hypothetical scenario, so maybe somebody like Hassan Whiteside or Xavier Henry is drafted to groom as the long term replacement for either Brewer or Darko in the starting lineup. I’d rather not ditch both Love and Jefferson. Once upon a time, that was supposed to be the foundation for a promising young team. That was only 18 months ago, in fact.
What this poll clearly shows
Is that we are all minions mired in groupthink, as DeMarcus Cousins has flatout run away with the vote.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
What can I say, SnP has hypnotic power over me ...
I wanted to choose Wall … but everything was so loud, and there were all these words, and things got bright, I just panicked and clicked on Cousins.
Not.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on May 13, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
PS: I realize you were lampooning the earlier accusations
I was just playing along
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on May 13, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
What I want to know
is who are the 3 people who voted for Wes Johnson? I mean seriously – out of 700 votes that’s incredible! I almost wish I had now just so that I’d know that I was one of the three Wes-keteers!
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
by biggity2bit on May 13, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
If you're not keen on Wes Johnson
then take the Al trade out. Rubio + Love for Turner is a no brainer to me, though. That’s something we would have to do if at all possible.
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